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The New GOP Political Trap: The "Ground Zero Mosque"

Over the past few days, the "ground Zero Mosque" - as the Wingnuts have christened it (irony intended), has been the Beltway BIG STORY. President Obama has spoken on it (not poorly imo, but unnecessarily.) He has clarified statements he made on Friday on the subject. Today, Harry Reid decided to wade in:

The First Amendment protects freedom of religion. Senator Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else," said a statement from Reid spokesman Jim Manley.

Why Reid gave this statement is beyond me. Who cares what Harry Reid (or Barack Obama for that matter) think about where the Cordoba Center should be built? This is a matter for the owners of the property, and, if necessary, the courts. It is true that NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg gave a good speech in support of the Cordoba Center, but Bloomberg is the Mayor of New York and probably won't be in any more political campaigns anyway. More. . .

Other pols, like the President and Reid, will be in campaigns in the future, and being pols, they did what pols do once they decided to speak - they put their fingers in the wind. In this case, the damage done is less than usual as there is absolutely no role for the federal government on this issue and no votes will be swayed because of this issue.

Activists, on the other hand, have an important role is shaping the debate and, where necessary, defending constitutional rights. If anyone tries to stop the Cordoba Center, then the First Amendment will be violated and then it becomes a matter for the courts. The role of activists is clear here.

The role of Democratic pols, apparently, is to fall into every obvious trap the Republicans set for them. So, instead of discussing issues like GOP hatred of Latinos, GOP demands for tax cuts for the rich, and GOP indifference to the plight of working Americans, they are instead discussing the building of the Cordoba Center, an issue they have no power over and for which they have nothing worthwhile to say.

The Democrats are proving again that not only are they inept at governing, they are incompetent at politics.

Speaking for me only

< Blagojevich Jury To Get Transcript of Deputy. Governor Tusk's Testimony | Cordoba Center Site Being Abandoned Because Of Obama? >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I know why he gave the statement... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:07:37 PM EST
    Harry is up for re-election...he musta missed the "win the right way, lose the right way" memo.

    And he should be ashamed of himself.

    How does this help him? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:09:03 PM EST
    Good question... (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:14:08 PM EST
    maybe he thinks there are islamophobes still on the fence in Nevada?

    Parent
    Then he is stupid (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:17:10 PM EST
    See my post above.

    Parent
    I think you are (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:21:59 PM EST
    underestimating how many people are whipped up by this.  its really not just the Islamaphobes.  the republicans have again successfully, as with death panels, made an issue out of whole cloth.

    and people are buying it.
    I think Harry is a pud but I also think that there must be polling that tells him he needs to do this.

    and as I said in the other thread if it take a bit of pandering to keep Sharon Angle out of the senate, Im for it.


    Parent

    I think they have gotten themselves (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:26:47 PM EST
    out maneuvered too AGAIN.  As my husband likes to say, "There is nobody like the Democrats for snatching Defeat out of the jaws of Victory".

    Parent
    I think you are way overestimating it (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:25:15 PM EST
    No person with an actual life gives a sh*t or will vote based on whether a pols "supports" or "opposes" the mosque.

    Parent
    I hope you are right (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:32:16 PM EST
    but I dont think you are.  as squeaky points out Weiner and others are tiptoeing around this.  and these people are not stupid, at least when it comes to their own electoral survival.
    anecdotally I see this has legs.  and I think the polls are showing them the same thing.


    Parent
    Anyone who cares (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:36:12 PM EST
    is a lock GOP vote or an almost lock Dem vote.

    I suppose in Michigan being for the Center could help, but I can't think of anywhere else.

    And being against does not help.

    I certainly was not clamoring to hear Obama or Reid on the subject, do you know anyone who was?

    Parent

    all I can tell you (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:40:02 PM EST
    is that I spent an hour on the phone with my sister, who voted for Obama, this weekend explaining why this is BS.

    none of which she had ever heard before.


    Parent

    "none of which she had heard before" (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:47:55 PM EST
    My point exactly.

    Parent
    It wouldn't be (none / 0) (#74)
    by cal1942 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 12:40:08 AM EST
    popular among swing voters in Michigan.  They really don't care who lives in Dearborn and are no different than voters anywhere else.

    Parent
    Weiner Not Tip Toeing (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:36:44 PM EST
    But playing both sides. Really disappointing, imo.

    Parent
    But not stupid politics (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:39:30 PM EST
    Not Stupid (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:44:29 PM EST
    Except in its transparency. I will think twice about casting a vote for him, because of this. Pandering to Pam Geller, is not cool, imo.

    Parent
    Not for nothing BTD... (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:43:42 PM EST
    they're are alotta people without an actual life...so Fox gives 'em one.

    I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that there are winners in Nevada who think this is the biggest issue the nation has right now...for no other reason than Fox won't shut up about it.

    Parent

    Those people are NEVER (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:46:54 PM EST
    voting Dem.

    This is the Values Voters argument. Stupid DLC sh*t.

    Parent

    I do agree (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:53:45 PM EST
    it was a mistake to talk about it at all.  but I wonder what would have happened if they tried that.

    IMO they are making the same mistake they made during the health care debate is assuming people are not idiots. as you said, my sister should have heard the truth.  but she doesnt watch MSNBC.

    Parent

    I'm not so sure... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:54:34 PM EST
    NY is almost lock-step for Team D and we've got our share of islamophobia...and politicians you wouldn't expect riding the fence on the downtown mosque out of fear of that bloc.  I'm waiting on Cuomo to waver if this doesn't blow over soon.

    Parent
    Oh come now (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 06:27:01 PM EST
    kdog that is perilously close to the lady who couldn't figure out how Reagan got elected because she didn't know anyone who did.. (maybe it was Nixon but I think you see the point)

    It is a very important issue to millions of people.

    They see it the same as Japan wanting to build a shrine at Pearl Harbor.

    Parent

    Important Issue? (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 06:32:27 PM EST
    Well let them put their money where their mouths are. Start buying up all the land around the site and make a grassy park.

    Oh, I guess it is not that important after all.... lol

    Parent

    Understimation (none / 0) (#68)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 08:11:39 PM EST
    I agree with you on the President's weigh-in, but I think you underestimate the level of prejudice coming out from hiding over this issue.  

    Parent
    If I were Bloomberg, I'd give a press (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by steviez314 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 05:54:52 PM EST
    conference announcing my views on Yucca Mountain.

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 06:00:19 PM EST
    Too bad that he more than likely is against it too... and would only score revenge points by going against it... lol

    funny idea though..

    Parent

    No argument...n/t (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:22:35 PM EST
    No it is not a local concern or (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:14:32 PM EST
    the concern of the owners or the courts.

    It is a matter of high interest and concern to the citizens of this country who may finally be waking up to the utter nonsense being preached.

    As for Reid, he and other Demos facing election are trying to establish a firewall that will let them play both sides.

    Ain't gonna work.

    This is a perfect issue to let the Repubs show where the Demos heads and hearts are.... and that includes Obama's despite his back pedaling.


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:16:39 PM EST
    You get to scream about it and reveal your intolerance but you do not get to stop it.
    Neither does Reid or Obama or any of your favorite Wingnuts.

    Much ado about nothing.

    Parent

    I think I will go with (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 06:38:10 PM EST
    Karl Popper:

    Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

    Link

    The people publicly associated with this proposed mosque have said some very extreme things. Now we have had the leader of Hamas weigh in.

    Whether you want to admit it or not, Islam is an expansionist religion with a history of conversion through the sword. Based on history and based on what happened on 9/11 and since then I would think that any reasonable Muslim leader would be condemning what's going on.

    That there are none speaks volumes and is troubling.

    Plainer. If they want outreach and understanding and brotherly love..... Stop the mosque.

    That is such a win-win proposition I find it amazing, and very telling, that it is not being proposed and discussed within the Muslin community.

    Parent

    "Islam is an expansionist religion with a ... (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Erehwon on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:42:02 PM EST
    history of conversion through the sword."

    Sure could have fooled me that only Islam was/is such a religion!

    End of snark.

    Parent

    Actually you need to look at history (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 09:58:05 AM EST
    and then see that the Christian church, primarily Catholic, gave up "conversion by the sword" a long time ago and that the Protestant groups never practiced it.

    Islam has not yet experienced a Reformation. Christianity has.

    That is a very large and important point.

    You also need to consider Sharia Law, and you start to understand that Islam is not just a religion but a complete way of life with rules and laws governing everything a person does.

    It is difficult to see how, long term, it can be successfully assimilated into American culture and life because of its basic conflicts with our Constitution.

    That is, I don't think you can build a church in SA.

    I also think that when you view the problems in Europe.. riots, etc., you can get a good preview of what is coming our way if we decide to let their "How dare you insult a Muslim" philosophy and standard operating procedure succeed.

    Parent

    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:42:56 PM EST
    Why?  Why oh why do liberals go out of their way to brand anyone who questions the motivations of Islam as small minded?

    The same religion that killed a man that made a movie about it, the religion that banned a man to witness protection because he wrote a book about it, the same religion that threatened to kill anyone that published a cartoon about it.  On and on and on.

    Just last week I watched a piece on 60 minutes about how a mainstream Islamic Turkey has done everything in its power to run off the head of Orthodox Christianity.

    Ask yourself this.  How did a country go from completely Christian to completely Islamic.   Understanding and reason?

    No matter what mainstream or extreme Muslims do look no further then the progressive left for people lining up to defend a religion that preaches against everything most liberals claim to stand for.

    Interesting.  

    is there some sort of satisfaction to be gained by defending someone who stands for everything you're against?  Or as I suspect is it easier to beat up on Christians and Mormons rather then the real religious zelots?

    No one is saying they don't have a right to build it.  Everyone is saying that they should probably build it someplace else.

    Why is that wrong?  When did I miss the memo that we should do everything we can to make sure we don't offend Muslims at the expense of everyone else?

    Parent

    Oh wait a minute (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:44:47 PM EST
    I'd like to "clarify" my comments.

    I didn't mean to suggest that I'm opposed to them building the mosque.  Just that they might not want to.

    Parent

    I think you give too much credit to the (none / 0) (#69)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 08:15:41 PM EST
    opponents of the mosque; many of them do not make the distinction between the owners having the right to build it and the view that it would be better if the owners changed their plans.

    Parent
    Some do, some don't (none / 0) (#78)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 08:35:30 AM EST
    There are crazies in the right wing.  Newt is way out of line making the "Nazi" comparison and he's only pandering to the worst of the republican party but he's wrong.

    Doesn't mean everyone that is concerned or worried about the mosque is a bigot or idiot.

    As in every conversation there are extremes and honest reservations.

    I would equally question the motives of some who are so set for a mosque being built but I wouldn't' immediately lump them all into a group to make me feel better about myself.

    That is the interesting thing about this.  How we turned an honest debate that cuts across party lines into a partisan flame thrower.

    Both extremes IMHO are using this issue as a political football and conveniently glossing over the real issue of how do we best assimilate Islam into American culture.

    Parent

    So, in other words, (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 08:06:37 PM EST
    the great Sir Karl was saying that we should not tolerate intolerance. Or, in the context of this thread, that we should not tolerate intolerance towards Muslims. Or, in other words, that we should not tolerate those of you who are religiously intolerant. This was the greater context of his writings on tolerance.

    Having you quote Karl Popper more than shook my world a little today. Do you like his writing? You might read his Logic of Scientific Discovery, one of the greatest books ever written, and consider his 'demarcation line' in terms of climate change and science.

    Parent

    How is this mosque my business? (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:17:05 PM EST
    Genuinely want to hear your take.

    Parent
    It's not our business (none / 0) (#63)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:48:48 PM EST
    But this blog is our business so if it's brought up I'll opine.

    I think they should build it someplace else, just like I think they should build a new downtown baseball stadium in my home town.  I've got an opinion.  Doesn't make me small minded or insensitive.  Why this is such an emotionally charged issues is not in question.   Where that emotion comes from on both sides is.  On one you have the pain of 9/11 on the other, well that's what I struggle with.  What's the motivation to get so charged up about where they build a mosque?

    What I find amusing is the self congratulating certainty so many express on this issue as if Muslims are the only ones that deserve the honor of never having their motivations questioned.

    Why would a religious group feel the need to put the "center" there and why do so many go so far out of their way to not spend a second wondering it?

    Parent

    I don't expect anyone to read (none / 0) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 09:48:09 AM EST
    every word I've ever typed, but I am not of the branch of folks who think that Islam is above reproach, questioning, or criticism.

    In fact, because I have to live with so many burka clad women these days....suddenly I know exactly how the French feel about covered heads beginning to be offensive to them.  I'm a feminist, and being surrounded by so many religiously subdued women (many of them practicing Wahhabism) has now caused "the need for all the covering" to become offensive to me.

    Parent

    OK (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:41:50 PM EST
    I have an idea. If the sanctity of the site and outlining area is sooooo important to all Americans, then you should organize a fund to purchase 1 square mile of all the land surrounding the site, of course at a premium. And then you can put a park around the shrine of the WTC site.

    BTW, my building is verrrrrrrry expensive....  

    Parent

    I got a better idea (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:04:54 PM EST
    The Muslim community recognize how divisive this is and stops.

    Wonder why they won't? I mean Islam being a religion of peace and all that and the mosque supposedly is for establishing better relations...

     

    Parent

    Maybe it also has (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:13:04 PM EST
    to do with the fact that most of the people of NYC give no credence to the thoughts of cracker outsiders who think the world was created in six days and that climate change is a Marxist hoax..

    Just a guess.

     

    Parent

    Can I presume you (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:52:51 PM EST
    speak for all of NYC?

    As PPG and I speak for all crackers out there in the hinterlands of "America" I'd like to make sure I'm speaking to an official representative of the NYC people.

    Parent

    One thing I know that (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 08:16:25 PM EST
    you don't is that they tend to value the findings of science, even when it conflicts with scripture and "the free market" and they also came to terms with the outcome of the civil war, 150 odd years ago and the civil rights era, 40 odd years ago.

    Just so you know what to expect if you ever go there.

    And as far as dangerous, intolerant, close-to-home religions to be feared go, Im sticking with American Conservatism and it's constraining, idiot child brethren, Christian fundamentalism.

     

    Parent

    Wow, a lot of insults (none / 0) (#77)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 08:30:08 AM EST
    packed into a short response.

    Look in all seriousness I think they can put a mosque/center wherever they want.

    All I'm saying is why the rush to defend a religion that has a pretty sketchy record over the last few decades or so?

    Why is it small minded to wonder if rewarding some of the radical elements of a certain religion might not be such a good idea?  

    I'm torn on this issue between two reasonable arguments and I'm not haughty enough to pretend I know whats best.    I actually believe Obama is torn between ideals and common sense as I am and that's why he understandably took one position and then walked it back slightly.  He's right in a weird way.  They do have the right but it doesn't mean they should use it.

    I think those defending the mosque/center cannot brand anyone with reservations as a "idoit" or "small minded" or "bigot" etc... etc...

    Lets save the big words for the people that deserve them.

    Parent

    I went down to my local chapter of (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 09:45:02 AM EST
    Cracker's Inc, and after presenting four pieces of ID asked them if Jondee was a rep for the nut case Left..and/or a rep for NYC.

    It took some digging but they assured me that he was not the latter but was the former.

    lol.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:33:38 PM EST
    Americans who adhere to the Muslim faith are protected against bigots who would demand that they step aside because other citizens' needs and desires are more important.

    If anything you and your faction are the insulting and injurious party, but you are free to scream at the top of your lungs.

    Parent

    Life is full of instances when people (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 09:41:16 AM EST
    step aside from asserting their "rights."

    From holding the door open to strangers to not entering an intersection on green when there's another car running a red light..

    It's known as courtesy and common sense and it is the lubricant that keeps society working.

    The extremist Muslims who are demanding the GZM be built to the far left and their minions around the world simply don't care.

    Step aside. The next wave is coming through!

    Parent

    BS (none / 0) (#84)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 12:24:15 PM EST
    This is politics and nothing else. To make believe that it is polite to stand aside for a few raving wingnuts while they blather on about how an entire religion is akin to Nazism, is absurd.

    Parent
    The opposition to the mosque (none / 0) (#28)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:36:41 PM EST
    is shameful.....and most of those who now oppose it one day will be ashamed of their demagoguery on this issue.

    It shows how the Korematsu decision could occur.   And I thought we had gotten past that....Well, no, I don't think our courts are to blame....But it shows how things outrageous like the Internment could occur and be viewed as rational....

    Fear and hatred raise their ugly head...

    Parent

    ... and evil triumphs when (none / 0) (#43)
    by brodie on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 04:11:56 PM EST
    good people do nothing.  FDR should have spoken out against the growing anti-Japanese-American hysteria back then, but didn't (probably for personal racist reasons, less so for political ones, imo).

    I applaud Obama at least for his Friday night comments, incomplete though they were.  Yes, politically dicey, but sometimes the situation calls for the most important leader in the land to speak up in moral terms, and had he not, the demagogues would have made his silence into a campaign issue.  

    Saturday, however, he just sounded a little too defensive and politically scared -- going from courageous leader towards typical mealy-mouthed pol in 24 hrs.

    Parent

    The President should not have (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 04:14:19 PM EST
    these results are predictable.

    Parent
    The two events (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:02:18 PM EST
    are not connected.

    And I won't be ashamed for opposing the construction of an "in your face" act by extremest Muslims.

    Parent

    "Extremist" muslims? (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:30:55 PM EST
    and, is there any other kind in the land of hard Right white christian male paranoia?

    Parent
    I can assure you (none / 0) (#64)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:49:39 PM EST
    I will never be ashamed.

    I may one day care very little and be presently surprised that this was much to do about nothing but save words like "shame" for issues that warrant it.

    Parent

    I wonder how many enemies have (none / 0) (#71)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 08:38:29 PM EST
    been made over this bruhaha?  When I was in college, the student body learned a week ahead of time that the head of the American Nazi Party was coming to speak.  There were several meetings of all students and faculty, and no one could decide how to "respond."  So the day of the speech came, everyone on campus piled into the auditorium, the fellow spoke, and not one word or hiss or boo or any other sound was uttered; when the speaker did not get a rise out of the audience, he upped the level of epithets he threw at us commie pinko sympathizers, but still no response.  The Prez of the student body accompanied the speaker off the stage, and told us that the fellow was cursing, etc., evidently furious that he was not able to provoke an incident and get press coverage.  
    In this situation, we are giving headlines around the world to those who would build the mosque, and the U.S. is, once again, not being cast in a positive light.  
    I understand the comments above citing Popper, but I view this differently:  We as a nation either stand for various freedoms, including freedom of worship; there is no freedom of worship if the same can be granted or disallowed arbitrarily, and not according to rule of law.  If the mosque builders violate any U.S. laws, they will be dealt with according, they will face the same consequences as anyone else.

    Parent
    I think that a lot of big-box stores (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:14:50 PM EST
    should be located somewhere else, too -- or not built at all -- but it is up to me about as much as it is up to President Obama or Senator Reid.  

    So, as the mosque/community center will replace yet another big-box blight on the cityscape of New York, I commend our Muslim friends -- and NYC's zoning board, which has the authority that Obama and Reid do not -- for improving the area around Ground Zero.

    (Btw, I base this in part on driving past the largest local mosque in my city last weekend, during Ramadan, and it was wonderful to see not only the impressive building but also the thriving street scene around it of worshipful fellow citizens enjoying religious freedom here.)

    While I wholeheartedly agree with Obama's (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:16:58 PM EST
    statement, I think he was a little naive to think that religious freedom is a no-brainer for a good chunk of the populace. Not their favorite amendment.

    Has anyone called the GOP out on endangering our troops by attempting to deny American Muslims their religious freedom?  didn't think so. That would be hardball.

    You play mean :) (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:18:17 PM EST
    That would be pretty good though huh?

    Parent
    or how about (none / 0) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:55:17 PM EST
    explaining that if its a mosque today it could be a church tomorrow

    Parent
    Inept at governance and (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:26:26 PM EST
    incompetent at politics has "loser" written all over it.

    It would have made so much more sense for both Obama and Reid - and whatever other Dems have felt compelled to weigh in - to say some version of: "This is America; the Constitution guarantees all of us the right to worship as we choose, alone or as a group, in makeshift structures, architectural marvels, or even in the solitude of our own heads.  The building of houses of worship is a local, community, issue, and is for the people in the community to resolve in accordance with the local building and zoning ordinances, and on terms that all members of the community can respect and accept.  It is not for those of us who don't live or work or shop there to judge what is or is not best for the people who do, rather it is up to us to ensure that the communities in which we do live and work and shop represent and honor the best spirit of the Constitution that guarantees these freedoms, and the open hearts and minds that made that document possible."

    Obama needed to shut people up, not get them riled up, and all Harry Reid has done is pour gasoline on the fire.  

    I guess "think before you speak" is not stressed nearly enough in Democratic circles, but it might be time to brew the Dems a big pot of STFU until they figure out what they should be saying - and doing.


    It is a Federal issue (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:46:36 PM EST
    The Relgious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) takes away the ability to use zoning laws to prevent the building of places of worship.

    Pushed initially by religious conservatives who felt that NIMBYs and those who were anti-religious were throwing up all kinds of content- neutral excuses such as traffic, density and noise to prevent even the remodeling of churches...

    So, this new sweeping statute makes denying building and use permits to houses of worship subject to in essence strict scrutiny review.  Basically, if the property is zoned for anything other than single family residences, it is next to impossible to not give a church or a mosque a building permit.....

    Marci Hamilton and others concerned about the separation of church and state argued the RLUIPA impermissbly gave an advantage to religious uses over all other uses.  And, others objected on Federalism issues, arguing that it should have remained a local issue.  One Federal Judge here in SoCal--a Reagan appointee--held the statue unconstitutional, writing that it was a "blunderbuss used to kill a mosquito...."  But he was reversed and RLUIPA has been held constitutional....

    So, the wingers have been hoisted by their own legal petard....

    Parent

    But the First Amendment does give an advantage (none / 0) (#45)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 04:34:12 PM EST
    to religious users over others.  The First Amendment gives all speakers (and thus all believers) equality in their "freedom of speech," including religious speech (which of course includes prayer, private and collective).  But the First Amendment then goes on to grant -- separately and additionally -- further expressive rights to two (and only two) privileged classes of speakers:  "the freedom of the press" and "the free exercise of religion."  It seems to me to be very clear on the face of the First Amendment not only that "the press" has certain rights of expression that others do not, but also that religious groups (and individuals expressing their relgious beliefs) get protection from government interference when they "exercise" those beliefs (that is, act upon them and carry them out in action) in a way that no others do.  Otherwise, why did the Framers mention those rights as protected in addition to the "freedom of speech"?  (I am not saying I would prefer it to be thus, but only that the First Amendment, to my reading, clearly says this.)  

    Parent
    That was (none / 0) (#46)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 04:43:14 PM EST
    iirc the argument in favor of RLUIPA's constitutionality.

    Marci Hamilton tried to make it into an Establishment issue.....

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:27:40 PM EST
    It is clearly a trap. Weiner, cowardly straddled the issue, word is he is going to run for Mayor. Bloomberg, for the first time I can remember, said something right. It is amazing how honest Politicians can be when they are either out of office or unable to run for another term.

    Respect? (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by dutchfox on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 05:08:37 PM EST
    "The First Amendment protects freedom of religion. Senator Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else," said a statement from Reid spokesman Jim Manley."

    Say what?
    My dear, departed momma (may she rest in peace) always said, "Say what you mean and mean what you say." Sen. Reid is doing neither, IMO.

    Respect? What about stand up for? Protect? Give me an effing break, we are talking about The Constitution.

    Why is Manley calling it a mosque when it's a cultural center? Is he just ignorant or doing that on purpose?

    Reid (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 06:21:30 PM EST
    Must have thought he had to respond.  Sharon Angle (through her spokseperson) said this:

    "By supporting the construction of a mosque at Ground Zero, President Obama has once again ignored the wishes of the American people, this time at the expense of victims of 9/11 and their families," Angle's spokesperson Jarrod Agen said in a statement. "As the Majority Leader, Harry Reid is usually President Obama's mouthpiece in the U.S. Senate, and yet he remains silent on this issue. Reid has a responsibility to stand up and say no to the mosque at Ground Zero or once again side with President Obama -- this time against the families of 9/11 victims."

    And since poll after poll shows overwhelmingly people against it - especially the ever-important Independents (whether you agree with them or not), maybe Harry felt he had to respond and respond this way.

    What else do they have (none / 0) (#2)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:08:18 PM EST
    other than things like this, and trolling the country in search of brain dead women to resurrect through the laying-on-of-hands?

    Those eight years proved how completely bankrupt any of their actual policy ideas are..

    It has to be nothing but blowing smoke, bait and switch and exposing secret blow j*bs from here on in..

    Yes, when your program (none / 0) (#52)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 06:32:17 PM EST
    is to have no programs, it is difficult sometimes to run on a platform such as:: I am a Republican, re-elect me, I promise, once again, to do nothing. Hence, a menace is needed. Red menace,  Hispanic illegals crashing into cars menace, Not in my backyard menaces.   Sometimes trial and error is required and not all work, but all are worth a try.  Of course, many Democrats are fraidy cats and there you have it.

    Parent
    It would be great if one of the (none / 0) (#72)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 08:41:37 PM EST
    newzine shows had the courage to find some Islamic heroes of 9/11 who helped get others out of the collapsing buildings....

    Parent
    Maybe their trying to shore up their left flank (none / 0) (#4)
    by BobTinKY on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:13:02 PM EST


    Throw us a real bone (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:16:24 PM EST
    And stop picking one that isn't even theirs to pick :)

    Parent
    Anybody catch the Jon Stewart (none / 0) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:14:03 PM EST
    spot on this.  Of course nobody does things like this up like The Daily Show does.

    Yes - it was very good (none / 0) (#17)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:19:13 PM EST
    I especially liked the ending, with the report from the mosque 4 blocks away from the WTC site.

    Parent
    Absolutely agree: (none / 0) (#9)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:15:13 PM EST
    Who cares what Harry Reid (or Barack Obama for that matter) think about where the Cordoba Center should be built?

    Will be interesting if the GOP can uncover some native American religious significance to the proposed site, invoking federal protections.

    That would be funny (none / 0) (#65)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 07:50:06 PM EST
    Ha!

    Parent
    Hugh Hewitt is trying to coach the (none / 0) (#24)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:31:52 PM EST
    wingers on how to oppose the Mosque in lower Manhattan....

    He says it is all about preserving the sanctity of the site.  Just like the opposition to building on or near Civil War battlefields....

    His column said that it was not about choosing between religions but keeping the site's sacred nature intact, unsullied by any religious use.  He said that one must be consistent--the First Amendment requires neutrality, even though some early intrepreters of the Constitution did not so believe (huh?)--so if one opposes a mosque, one must also oppose a church there too....trying to head off the bigotted anti-Muslim rant of those opposing the mosque.

    So, Krauthammer's argument is now about Civil War battlefields.....

    Total nonsense.  Last time I looked, they are going to build two office towers on the site (and the mosques is not being built at the site in any event)....So, it will not be a sacred shrine.  No, it will not be like a Civil War battlefield and remain undeveloped.  Are they going to review every lease to make sure no religious uses will occur in the new buildings?

    This is such a dishonest argument.

    This whole anti-mosque, anti-Muslim tirade a decade after 9/11 is truly disturbing.  Few really believe in the First Amendment.  Dark tribalism reigns.

    Heh (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:33:23 PM EST
    Too funny.

    Parent
    its funny (none / 0) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:38:04 PM EST
    but their audience is largely made up of idiots with the attention span of dust mites.  if they have perfected anything over the years is manipulating them.


    Parent
    I beg to differ (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 08:47:49 PM EST
    as I believe the audience is larger than you think.  Who do you think comprise the voters Weiner and others must be polling and are afraid to alienate?  IMO, the irrational antipathy toward and stereotyping of all things Muslim has spread far beyond the wingnut base.  This is why Anne's suggestions as to what Obama should have said by way of leadership and quelling the waters is so important.  

    Parent
    I did not mean to say (none / 0) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 09:22:48 AM EST
    their audience was not large and growing.
    IMO that doesnt mean they are not idiots.


    Parent
    You insult (none / 0) (#33)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:41:11 PM EST
    dust mites.   ;-)

    Parent
    The "issue" is (none / 0) (#75)
    by cal1942 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 12:59:31 AM EST
    crap as an actual important issue, except, in the public mind.  So I guess that makes it important but for all the wrong reasons.

    I almost fell over when I read Obama had weighed in.

    Anyone who talks about his 'brilliance' is clueless.  How many examples of ineptitude are necessary to dispell the myth.

    I can understand why Reid got into the act. I'd wager Reid got into it to distance himself from Obama.

    I'd wager that Reid is getting hit, not with his actual record, but with Obama.  I wonder how many right-wing chain emails are being circulated in Nevada implying that Obama is actually Reid's love child.

    This is why i am an agnostic (none / 0) (#76)
    by hairspray on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 01:04:50 AM EST