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Sunday Night Open Thread: What's Behind All the Emotion?

The furor over the Islamic Center continues, as protests were held in Manhattan by those on both sides. I still don't get the opposition to it, and why it's such a big deal. All that raw emotion and anger seems like it could be better spent on something positive.

Nor do I understand the anger over whether Roger Clemens took steroids, or why everyone seems to think that the word of a trainer who cut a deal and a former player who thinks he remembers an admission made in 1999 is grounds for a six count Indictment. Prosecuting the famous seems to be the new big thing.

Here's one view of a legal defense Clemons might have according to a former White House lawyer as reported in the New York Times: Congress may not have been authorized to call Clemons in the first place. [More...]

What was the point of the hearing? What bill was under consideration? What government agency was thought to failing its duties? Wasn't this just about a private report in which a celebrity player denied using steroids after other players said he did? What government interest was served by proving either side right or wrong?

“Congress didn’t do this investigation to determine whether they needed new drug laws,” [Reginald]Brown said. “They didn’t do it to determine whether federal agencies were exercising their proper oversight. They did this to figure out whether Clemens or his trainer were telling the truth, and that is arguably not a legislative function. It’s not Congress’s job to hold perjury trials.”

Brown refers to a case from 1956 called U.S. v. Icardi which held:

"It is unneccessary for the court to determine for which purpose Icardi's testimony was sought or obtained, since neither affording an individual a forum in which to protest his innocence nor extracting testimony with a view to a perjury prosecution is a valid legislative purpose.....If the committee is not pursuing a bona fide legislative purpose when it secures the testimony of any witness, it is not acting as a 'competent tribunal', even though the very testimony be relevant to a matter which could be the subject of a valid legislative investigation."

As to Congress' legislative purpose, here's what the Committee said at the time. The purpose seems not to be any legislative function, but to test the accuracy of the Mitchell Report's claims about Clemens and about "baseball's history with performance-enhancing substances."

Given the Committee’s past work and our interest in an accurate record of baseball’s steroids era, we have investigated the evidence in Senator Mitchell’s report that relates to Mr. McNamee and the players he identified. Tom Davis and I made this decision reluctantly. We have no interest in making baseball a central part of our Committee’s agenda. But if the Mitchell report is to be the last word on baseball’s past, we believed we had a responsibility to investigate a serious claim of inaccuracy.

Clemons' attorney, Rusty Hardin, said this week:

"Keep in mind what happened here. A private citizen publicly denies accusations made by a private group, namely the Mitchell Commission. Congress knows that's what he's going to say. Congress invites him to appear. Makes it clear that if he doesn't come voluntarily he'll be compelled. He comes, he denies under oath, does the very thing they knew he was going to do - and then they get him indicted for perjury. Somewhere, sooner or later in this debate, I hope somebody questions if that makes sense."

Always good reading: Bennett Gersham's 1981 "The Perjury Trap."

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Did Odierno clear his comments w/ (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:29:27 PM EST
    the White House?  Secretary of Defense Gates?  Odierno on CNN re Iraq

    It seems to happen (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:46:20 PM EST
    the other way 'round.

    Parent
    Great post (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:31:39 PM EST


    Fine as an Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:32:32 PM EST
    But deserves its own post.

    I'll be using this in the future.

    Parent

    go right ahead (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:51:26 PM EST
    There's another case too, Cross, described in this opinion:

    In United States v. Cross, 170 F.Supp. 303 (D.D.C.1959), the defendant was being prosecuted for perjury before the Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Field. Id. at 304. In this case, the defendant had been recalled to testify before the committee a second time for the sole purpose of strengthening the case against him for perjury. Id. at 309. Judge Keech again held that the committee was not a competent tribunal and the statements were immaterial because the questions were not asked for the purpose of eliciting facts material to the committee's investigation. Id. at 310.

    In both Icardi and Cross, it is important to note that the tribunals were legislative, raising the spectre of what Judge Keech referred to in Icardi as "legislative trial and conviction." Id. at 388, which "should not be condoned, as it denies to the accused the constitutional safeguards of judicial trial." Id. at 389.



    Parent
    Sen Jeff Merkeley Says it Well (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 09:57:42 PM EST
    via digby:

    But, many mosque opponents argue, just because it can be built does not mean it should be. They say it would be disrespectful to the memories of those who died on 9/11 to build a Muslim facility near the World Trade Center site. I appreciate the depth of emotions at play, but respectfully suggest that the presence of a mosque is only inappropriate near ground zero if we unfairly associate Muslim Americans with the atrocities of the foreign al-Qaida terrorists who attacked our nation.

    Such an association is a profound error. Muslim Americans are our fellow citizens, not our enemies. Muslim Americans were among the victims who died at the World Trade Center in the 9/11 attacks. Muslim American first responders risked their lives to save their fellow citizens that day. Many of our Muslim neighbors, including thousands of Oregon citizens, serve our country in war zones abroad and our communities at home with dedication and distinction....

    more

    It's the same old battle (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by JamesTX on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:33:01 PM EST
    with those who can read the second amendment, but they can't read the first one. I don't think it is a reading disorder, just lack of reading skill. They forget or don't comprehend the first few things they read. Later, after they get warmed up, they begin to comprehend the material. But the earlier material is lost.

    These people missed the first amendment idea that this is not a "Christian nation", and that minority religions are not outsiders and enemies. They think any representation of religion in important public locations in the U.S. should be Christian, which means the same thing as "normal" to them. They also believe it was the religion of Islam which attacked the United States, and hence make the same error as someone who confuses the typical Christian in the United States with the KKK or a White supremacist Christian militia.

    The congressional baseball hearings and the waste of federal tax dollars on the subsequent investigations and prosecutions are clear and simple abuse and fraudulent waste of public resources. These hearings took place when the people in control were those who believe baseball (and football and basketball) are official American business, and they used their power to bring their personal entertainment interests to work with them.  They chose to ignore and delay important official business for which they are responsible while they enjoyed stimulating arguments and pontificating about the games and the show business which they personally love. It is not unlike a group of firefighters letting a building burn down because they were playing dominoes and wanted to finish the game. It is criminal waste, fraud and abuse of public resources.

    didnt have strong opinions (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:43:55 AM EST
    on this until recently.

    the center must be built.  it must be built on the originally intended site.

    these people must not be allowed to win.

    But the American Muslims (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 11:47:03 AM EST
    if they were real polite, and did not want to hurt our feelings, would move to the back of the bus......

    The American Muslims should stop being so uppity, trying to claim equal rights enjoyed by Christians......

    We will tolerate Islam because the First Amendment says we have to....but how rude to insist on exercising their rights by buying an old, dilapted building at a low price to build a community center near a strip club.....  

    Parent

    And they would also make sure (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:04:41 PM EST
    that Christians and Jews could build places of worship in SA.....

    Parent
    SA? As in Saudi Arabia? (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:11:09 PM EST
    And, silly me, I thought we were better than them.....You know, American Exceptionalism and all that....

    So the Saudis are the arbiters of our constitutional standards?....We will only do what they do?

    ....I do admire your ability to parrot Newt on this....

    Are you really up to speed on Christianity?  

    Parent

    Let's just talk about our country (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by PatHat on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:13:40 PM EST
    We don't have much influence in Saudi, despite all the oil we buy.

    How about actually responding to the post instead of pushing it somewhere else? That would almost be like a debate.

    Parent

    That (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:59:54 PM EST
    is the stupidest part of the argument on this whole deal. How they do it in Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Cuba, Iran or any other place on the planet is irrelevant to anything happening in this country. Comparing the US to Saudi Arabia? That's your argument? We should be more like them? Makes it hard to take anything you've ever posted now or ever seriously.

    Parent
    What's behind all this emotion (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by mmc9431 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:38:49 AM EST
    The answer is:  The right wing continuing to do what it does best. Fuel hate, fear and bigotry. Whether it's Hispanics, Muslems, Blacks, Gays or whoever.

    As long as you continue to fester these emotions, you can control the people. If you control the people, you control the purse strings.

    The marches were not focused on (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:28:43 PM EST
    appeasing their critics but on demanding fair and equitable treatment. The only PR that would be acceptable to those supporting demonizing Latinos or Muslims is if the groups packed up and left the country to those spreading the falsehoods to begin with. Then while they are on a winning streak they  would just focus their ire on another group.

    Public Relations is about educating the public... (none / 0) (#172)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:42:17 PM EST
    with the message that will benefit your side. In this case, truth! It is a tool and it has nothing to do with right or wrong. It has everything to do with changing hearts and minds. It is imperative we understand this. The right wingers know this, why is it so hard for the left?

    I've said all I'm going to say about Public Relations.

    Parent

    in the 70% (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:41:50 PM EST
    and over 70, right?


    I understand the emotion (3.50 / 2) (#21)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:32:52 AM EST
    This is a PR disaster for the Muslim community. They allowed the Taliban and Al-Qaeda to define them.

    American Muslims should have been on TV 24/7 after 911, and they should have been distancing themselves and condemning  the extremists in their religion, but they weren't. What we saw instead were thousands of Muslims in the Middle East dancing jubilantly to thank Alla for the destruction of American lives and property.  

    There is no question they have a right to build wherever they want, what has become an issue is whether a religion, whose goal it is to be closer to God and all it entails, should pursue an endeavor that is causing so much strife, division and pain to others. Is that a godly thing to do?

    It would be naive to deny that the members of the Muslim religion have, and continue to cause, a lot of terrorism around the world. From the USA, to Spain, England, the Philippines, Amesterdam and the Middle East. People are uneasy, and rightly so, about a religion most Americans don't know enough about.

    The Imans should have been condemning the terrorist acts and I didn't see enough of it. So now they are dealing with their lackadaisical response to the actions of a powerful group of people in their own religion.

    Can they build? Yes. Should they build? That is up to them and their sense of right and wrong, but this is a PR disaster of their own causing IMHO.

    You just said what I've been thinking (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 08:16:32 AM EST
    The obliviousness of the people behind the community center just boggles the mind.  They apparently were genuinely surprised by the reaction.  I don't understand how it's possible to be so out of touch with what's been going on in this country.

    Did they not pay any attention at all to the 2008 campaign, just for starters?  Or the brouhaha over the Muslim congressman from Michigan taking the oath of office with the Q'uran instead of the Bible?  Etc, etc, etc.  Where have they been?

    I think their center is a terrific idea, but I don't get at all why they thought they could do this with no controversy without having made any significant effort to lay the groundwork for it with the public.


    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 08:19:16 AM EST
    Yeah, I guess African Americans, Mexicans, Jews, and Women are to blame for their respective oppression too.

    Parent
    You need .. (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:11:43 PM EST
    a serious lesson in logic.

    We are talking about a PR blunder, on the part of the people who want to build the mosque here. How does that translate into these other groups should be blamed for their oppression?

    Parent

    Your premise is incorrect (none / 0) (#53)
    by PatHat on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:15:36 PM EST
    This was not a PR blunder. It was a plan to build a cultural center for local Muslims. Did you see the timeline I posted? This issue was not an issue until some blogger decided to frame it as an "insult"

    Parent
    A plan .... (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:19:27 PM EST
    to build a PUBLIC cultural center involves a PR element.

    By definition, PR includes reactions from others. In this case, that includes the bloggers you have mentioned.

    And of course an issue wasn't one until someone makes it so. The failure to anticipate reaction, in this case, is the cause of the blunder.

    Parent

    Uh... (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:19:33 PM EST
    How many "local Muslims" live within say, 40 blocks of the GZ mosques?

    Parent
    prob a lot ... (none / 0) (#63)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:22:46 PM EST
    but 40 blocks is a long distance .. and certainly cannot be termed as "on ground zero".

    Furthermore, i doubt they ADVERTISE their locations to the public (which cannot be avoided for the plans to build this mosque).

    Parent

    The point was (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:28:55 PM EST
    how many Muslims live within that perimeter?

    And I would also ask... Are there no other Mosques in existence they can use? (The answer is yes.)

    Parent

    They are Americans (none / 0) (#69)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:30:53 PM EST
    No need to be assigned second class citizenship based on your fear and ignorance....

    Parent
    Perhaps you should be asking (none / 0) (#100)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    are there any other community centers in the area they can use. Pools? Performance space? Culinary School? What about retail shops/restaurants to drive the local economy? Jobs? what makes you think they are building this just for the Muslims within that perimeter?

    And are all mosques created equal when it comes to attending one? How about we tell you which christian church to attend?

    Parent

    In NYC? (none / 0) (#95)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:01:18 PM EST
    I would wager more than 1000.

    Parent
    yep (none / 0) (#99)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:03:58 PM EST
    also, yes, there is another Mosque in the area.  The reason they are proposing this one is due to overcrowding at the other Mosque.  I guess Jim thinks we should just force them to pack in like sardines.

    Parent
    Uh..outright, bald-faced lies (none / 0) (#118)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:52:27 PM EST
    as in, what you folks seem to feel you have to rely on to make your case -- which is never a good sign.

    Again, I ask you, whats your source for that 9/11-opening-date story you're pushing at your site?

    Parent

    The point was and is and will be (none / 0) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:39:52 PM EST
    There is, was and will be plenty of Mosques and "outreach" centers located in non hurtful locations.

    The proponents knew and know this.

    Their actions speak for them.

    Parent

    Hurtful Locations (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 03:05:34 PM EST
    Bwahahahahhahahahahah  WATB.... bedwetters to no doubt.

    If those who are suffering at the sight of anything Muslim are still suffering after 10 years, they need medication, therapy and perhaps hospitalization.

    Parent

    you know (none / 0) (#131)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:47:04 PM EST
    I honest to god dont get the hurtful part.

    how does this hurt you?  its a serious question.
    or anyone for that matter?

    and just when I was about to defend you the spitting thing.


    Parent

    Two thoughts (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:29:55 AM EST
    First, I have never in my lifetime seen something grab the attention of Americans like this has. It exceeds even the emotions generated by health care.

    Friends who I have never heard utter a single political word are totally outraged over this. They consider it an insult and take it personally. Their comments regarding politicians who seek to lecture them over it indicate a depth of disgust that is truly amazing.

    Secondly, no one believes that the proponents do not understand this. They see it done on purpose to insult and brag. I think they are correct. The Muslim leaders in this matter are intelligent perceptive people. They had to have known in advance and they don't care.

    There are many things in life that people do not do even though they have the "right" to do so. Our society depends on the willing cooperation of its citizens. Without that society will move closer to a "democracy of the majority."

    We should all remember that.

    Parent

    I couldn't disagree with you more (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by PatHat on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:46:15 AM EST
    Friends who I have never heard utter a single political word are totally outraged over this. They consider it an insult and take it personally. Their comments regarding politicians who seek to lecture them over it indicate a depth of disgust that is truly amazing.

    First, this isn't a political issue or wasn't until the Muslim-haters made it one. Second, who are your friends and why are they so ill informed? Third, I am still waiting for proof that the people who want to build this center are purposely trying to insult people or honor the terrorists.

    Secondly, no one believes that the proponents do not understand this. They see it done on purpose to insult and brag. I think they are correct. The Muslim leaders in this matter are intelligent perceptive people. They had to have known in advance and they don't care.

    No one? Do you even read the responses to your posts here? It is unfortunate that you look at the situation and make the determination that the Muslim leaders don't care what people think. What you fail to see is that the supporters of the center just think that you are wrong for feeling the way you do.

    Parent

    If you want to argue (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:22:12 AM EST
    that the proponents did not and do not understand how people would react to the GZ mosque you can.
    And if you actually didn't think that millions would react negatively to it then you can.

    But I believe you, and they, are smarter than that.

    And I cannot believe that you, and some others, can't understand that it is the actions of the proponents that speak. Their claims are useless because of that.

    What the proponents of the GZ mosque think of my position is useless. 70% of the American public is against it. They, and the politicians supporting it, should take that into consideration.

    Finally, describing those who oppose the GZ mosque as "Muslim haters" is a despicable choice of words. Opposing the location of this Mosque is anti nothing but the location. All that is being asked is that they respect the memory of the 9/11 attacks and take their Mosque someplace else.

    That they refuse is absolute proof of what this is about.

    Parent

    Ah yes (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:54:06 AM EST
    the hallowed ground of the Burlington Coat Factory.

    So what's a "safe" distance? Three blocks from GZ?  Four blocks? Five blocks? How many blocks?

    And while we're at it, I'd like an answer to the question Jon Stewart raised last week, which is if these are such terrible terrorist-supporting subversive bad guys, why is it OK for them to build a cultural center -- IT'S NOT A MOSQUE -- anywhere in the city or anywhere else?

    Parent

    That has been my question. (none / 0) (#37)
    by coast on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 11:44:55 AM EST
    Apparently 12 blocks is ok since that is the distance from GZ to the Imam's current mosque.

    However, while you are correct that the majority of the space will be a "community center", the plans for the building include space for a mosque that will be run seperately from the community center.

    Parent

    No one is asking that any current (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:08:17 PM EST
    Mosques be shut down... just that they don't build this one.

    Parent
    And others around the country too (none / 0) (#67)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:29:26 PM EST
    Arguing ... (none / 0) (#52)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:14:42 PM EST
    logic is totally useless when it is a war of emotions.

    The number of blocks does not matter. What matter is someone can say "a MOSQUE is on GROUND ZERO".

    Parent

    What matters is that "someone" can LIE (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:28:23 PM EST
    and say a "MOSQUE is on GROUND ZERO". Let's repeat that key word once again. The word is LIE. So rather than shine light on that LIE, we should deny American citizens their constitutional rights and  reinforce Al Qaeda's statement that the U.S. is at war with all Muslim's and Islam.

    Parent
    Logic is useless right now (none / 0) (#71)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:34:13 PM EST
    It is about putting down a marker....Who is for the First Amendment rights of a minority.....Who is against collective guilt and bigotry....

    The way the opinion will change is the way it has with gay rights imo.....As people get to know American Muslims, it will be harder to demonize and scapegoat them.  This is why Dick Cheney of all people is not anti-gay....

    But that process takes time.  Now is the time to see who will stand with a hated and innocent minority....

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by hookfan on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:59:06 PM EST
    and liberals if the are liberals, would be singing these Muslims praises for attempting to stand firm against bigotry and oppression of minorities.
     If the global war on terror is a never ending one, there will never be a good time or a good pr show as minorities will likely always be receiving guilt by association trips.
      I'm glad women didn't wait for good pr productions to struggle for their right to vote.
       as for me, I'm sick and tired of seeing rights and freedoms given up due to the volume that flows out of the mouths of bigots.

    Parent
    I share your frustration (none / 0) (#145)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 03:53:04 PM EST
    but I think you are missing the PR angle.

    Members of their religion destroyed the towers and they are on record wanting to destroy America. It is in their best interest to launch a full Public Relations campaign to disassociate themselves from the terrorists in their religion.
    African Americans, Women and Gays did not do anything similar, so this is a non-sequitur.

    Every new business and non-profit organization is required to hold public hearings before they are  allowed to operate. The hearings in this case have become before the whole country and unfortunately the right wingers are driving it.

    I am not opposed to the center being built and before 911 very few people would have been.

    Parent

    I'll (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by hookfan on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:53:30 PM EST
    concede that the MEDIA has not done much in allowing the presentation of what the Muslim community both here and worldwide have said or done to distance from the extremists. I also believe it's in the interests of the bigots to not allow the majority of Muslim community to be heard.
       I also think it's largely irrelevant whether the Muslim Community has good pr or not. The exercise of rights should not be determined by the effectiveness of one's pr campaign.
      In fact because of the stupidity of the controversy, I now believe ESPECIALLY when there is not effective pr, Liberals have an obligation to stand in solidarity with minorities. If we don't, there is a world of greater hurt acomin'. . .

    Parent
    I agree, (none / 0) (#165)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:06:50 PM EST
    but it is in the interest of the party affected to get those who opposed them to not oppose them. What is the best way to accomplish that in this particular case?
    Public Relations IMO.

    Parent
    No ... (none / 0) (#75)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:39:23 PM EST
    putting down a marker polarizes the groups.

    If you told someone who is against the mosque that he is a bigot, he will be even MORE emotionally entrenched, and try to justify why it is NOT bigotry.

    What you should be doing, is to "softening" him up by telling him about American muslims, and NOT be judgmental to his views, at least not confrontational.

    Tell the other side names NEVER change a mind. And with 70% of Americans against this, minds need to be changed.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:31:57 PM EST
    You need clarity.....

    Overt, de jure racism, was beat back in part by shaming the racists....

    Don't give the bigots emotional shelter....

    You need both approaches.  You can be good cop  by showing people that Muslims are just like us.  Absolutely necessary--but not sufficient...

    People need to be called out for their bigotry....Make it socially unacceptable to be bigotted.  Then the overt bigotry will stop.

    Parent

    I think thats right (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:35:48 PM EST
    far to much coddling of these people has gone on already.
    and it might not be a bad idea to point out that the whole thing is based on a lie.  its not a mosque and it is not at ground zero.


    Parent
    I don't think 70% of Americans are bigots (none / 0) (#142)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 03:37:21 PM EST
    It is undeniable that a powerful group of Muslims are intent on terrorism and destroying America, and they operate stealthy and use any means necessary to accomplish their goals.

    This is the fear of that 70% of Americans--that this center is mocking the tragedy or worse a stealth unit of Al-Qaeda.

    The reason I believe the anger has taken hold is because there are precedents for this, and that is why I say it is a PR disaster from the American Muslim leaders.

    The Imans should flat out condemn the attacks, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda and should affirm they are Americans following a peaceful religion that has been taken over by extremist usurpers. The Government leaders should support them by reassuring Americans and releasing a full blown information campaign.

    We are dealing in emotions and symbolism. Name calling and stubbornly refusing to understand where others are coming from (because we are right) will make things worse.

    It is the responsibility of the enlightened to be patient and lead his/her fellow man to that light.

    Parent

    It would not be enough, ever (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:09:50 PM EST
    given the current climate.

    This is not about reason.  It is about irrational fear, scapegoating and ignorance.....

    The best defense is offense.    Hit them hard.  Make them defend and try to justify in non-bigotted terms (they can't) their position.  Being seen as strong matters, even if it is perceived as strident.....Do not yield on this point.....

    Trying to justify oneself is just trying to appease the mob....Don't feed the mob....

    Catholics and Mormons don't have to justify their faith to build churches (the Mormons used to have to do this, so they should know better), so the Muslims should not take on this burden.....Why admit you are a second class citizen?  

    Why sit in the back of the bus just to appease someone else's feelings?.....

    Of course, making known the views of the Muslim community and their "Americanness" in other circumstances and venues is not bad idea.....

    And the precedent is bad.  You don't have to justify your First Amendment rights.

    Parent

    IIRC 70% of people in AZ (5.00 / 0) (#151)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:17:21 PM EST
    approved of the Arizona's new immigration law. This is based on fear, real or imaged also.

    Bad PR? Is it the responsibility of the enlightened to be patient and lead his/her fellow man to that light on that issue?

    There definitely are precedents for this type anger throughout our history.

    So you support Arizona's actions also?

    Parent

    Yes to your first question: (none / 0) (#154)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:41:25 PM EST
    IIRC 70% of people in AZ...approved of the Arizona's new immigration law. This is based on fear, real or imaged also.

    Bad PR? Is it the responsibility of the enlightened to be patient and lead his/her fellow man to that light on that issue?

    Yes it is bad PR and it's my communities responsibility to dispel lies about us with the facts. It is incumbent on us to make sure others know our contributions to our country, and it is the responsibility of the enlightened to realize we are all the same and we all have the same potential to get beyond our prejudices. It is a different process for everyone. It does not mean we give into bigotry or that we violate our consitution.

    So you support Arizona's actions also?

    You misunderstood my posts. I am not for prohibiting the mosque from being built and no I don't support Arizona's actions either.

    Parent

    neither impressed or surprised (none / 0) (#150)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:15:12 PM EST
    by the 70% number.  wrong is wrong. and I also believe that at least half of that number is because of calculated misinformation and it they knew that it was, in fact, NOT a mosque and NOT at ground zero those numbers would change.


    Parent
    Among YOUR friends? (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:21:18 PM EST
    First, I have never in my lifetime seen something grab the attention of Americans like this has. It exceeds even the emotions generated by health care.

    Friends who I have never heard utter a single political word are totally outraged over this. They consider it an insult and take it personally. Their comments regarding politicians who seek to lecture them over it indicate a depth of disgust that is truly amazing.

    Really?  Among my friends it's not even an issue.

    Guess it says more about about who your choice of friends than anything about the intensity of this "issue".

    Parent

    "..nothing in my lifetime.." (none / 0) (#120)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:00:07 PM EST
    Just a tad over the top..

    Out of bizarrly lurid hyperbole like that are cases against "the GZM" made..

     

    Parent

    Coulda been worse (none / 0) (#125)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:24:20 PM EST
    At least he didn't say " ... never in the history of the universe ..."

    Parent
    Oh Well (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:33:51 AM EST
    Guess you were asleep during the MLK era... Not surprised.

    And not surprised that you missed the entire Vietnam war protests that gripped the nation.. and stopped the war.

    But when you are as tuned into the Wingnut agenda as you are, jim, it comes as no surprise that you are in awe of the bigoted message, and believe it to be bigger news than sliced bread.

    Parent

    Nope, lived through both (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:25:56 AM EST
    although, from time to time, I was otherwise engaged...

    I repeat. 70% of the country opposes the GZ mosque. Their was nothing like that in opposition to the civil rights movement. In fact, a majority supported it.

    And if 70% of the public had opposed the anti-war radicals then that would have had a different outcome.

    Parent

    More than 70 percent (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:49:59 AM EST
    of the country has no idea, thanks to efforts of people like you, that it's not a mosque and it's not at ground zero, that the imam in question is a Sufi, and a fellow your beloved George W. Bush thought was such a bad guy, he signed him up as an informal representative of the U.S. and sent him around to Muslim countries after 9/11 on behalf of the country.

    Honestly, this whole thing is so wildly dishonest, it almost defies belief.

    And in any case, we have NEVER decided what constitutional rights people have in this country on the basis of a public opinion poll.

    Parent

    This is the PR campaign I'm talking about. (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:00:36 PM EST
    Free the people, share the truth!

    Parent
    Nobody (none / 0) (#41)
    by efm on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:04:14 PM EST
     is arguing the constitutional right of them building there, everyone knows that you can pretty much build anything anywhere you want to.

    As for people falsely believing that it is a mosque, maybe they shouldn't put that it has a mosque inside of it on their website.

    with a designated prayer space (mosque)

    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

    While not at ground zero, for some people, a building, that was also damaged by one of the planes from the attack, is still too close. I think the majority of the 70% that are against the mosque know that all even the majority of Muslims are not terrorists.  
    Maybe, like what was said in an earlier post.

    American Muslims should have been on TV 24/7 after 911, and they should have been distancing themselves and condemning  the extremists in their religion, but they weren't. What we saw instead were thousands of Muslims in the Middle East dancing jubilantly to thank Alla for the destruction of American lives and property.  

    That is what Americans saw,  so it is understandable (even if its untrue) that some Americans link Muslims to terrorism.  Its the same thing the left is doing with the tea party. A small fringe of them are racist, sure, but the majority are not, but the left labels the whole movement as racist anyway.

    Parent
    jim, I'm sure 70% of the people (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:01:23 PM EST
    supported the Japanese American Internment too.....That was during a time of war and great fear of all things Japanese.

    You think that was right?  Who knows, maybe you do....

    This is a defining moment.....I want to see who stands up for what is right, not what is popular....

    You continue to wrongly equate American Muslims with terrorists....

    Some day, in the not too distant future, those who oppose the Community Center will be as ashamed of this as of the Internment of the Japanese Americans.....

    It is human, and as American as apple pie, to let fear and ignorance lead to bigotry.....But fortunately, it is also an American trait to overcome such bigotry.  Doing so is what makes this country truly great and different from all the other democracies in the world.  Let's see who is truly American and standing up for what is right (and Christian), as opposed to those who let themselves be ruled by fear, ignorance and superstition....

    The property was selected apparently because it was cheap--and in Manhattan there isn't much that is cheap....

    Parent

    No (2.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:13:20 PM EST
    The stated reason was that it was to be an "outreach" center..

    Problem is, millions of Americans don't want to be "outreached."

    And since you want comparisons....

    How about if the KKK decides to build a "outreach" center down the street from the Lorraine Motel in Memphis?

    Would that be okay with you?

    Parent

    You just equated the KKK with Islam (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:25:38 PM EST
    That is bigotted.  You just believe your bigotry against Islam and American Muslims is justified....So did those who interned the Japanese Americans....

    At least you are being honest in expressing your bigotry--instead of talking about sparing the feelings of those harmed, or preserving the site as an undeveloped cemetery like a Civil War battlefield.

    American Muslims did not cause 9/11.  Do you get that?

    Would you oppose the building of a Catholic Church next to a school were some of the students had been molested by priests?

    Your position undermines the efforts to combat terrorism.....We can only win that war by winning the hearts and minds of moderate Muslims.....You fan the flames by creating a holy war against all of Islam.  You endanger our national security....

    Parent

    No I did not equate. (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:36:11 PM EST
    AND STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

    You are very good at that and you do it too often.

    My point was, as you know it is, that we, as a country, would not agree to have the KKK build a center near the Lorraine hotel because of the history involved.

    Same with the GZ Mosque. Too much history involved. Too recent. To much hurt.

    And maybe the protests and rejection will tell the moderate Muslims that they need to rise and control the radicals. I mean they aren't doing it now.

    Parent

    Sure you did (none / 0) (#81)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:45:06 PM EST
    You were the one using the KKK as an example....

    If the KKK is not similar to Isam, why make the comparison...

    Parent

    You and (none / 0) (#84)
    by efm on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:49:42 PM EST
     everyone else knows that he is not comparing Islam with the KKK.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:59:46 PM EST
    that's right. Thanks. For a minute I thought that suggesting that the Cordoba people opening a center was like the KKK opening a center, meant to suggest that there were similarities between the two groups.

    Thanks for reminding me of what I know.

    Parent

    anytime (none / 0) (#104)
    by efm on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:12:05 PM EST
    False analogy (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:08:01 PM EST
    How about if the KKK decides to build a "outreach" center down the street from the Lorraine Motel in Memphis?

    The KKK is, by definition, an extremist organization preaching racism, hatred and violence.  There are no "extremists" in the KKK, as in the Muslim population.  The KKK is  made up entirely of extremists.  You, on the other hand, impute the hatred and violence of a tiny fraction of Muslims (the 9-11 terrorists) to the Muslim community as a whole, then argue that no Muslims should build a community center near GZ.

    So, if you want to use a more correct analogy, why not do the same with Christian extremists?  Let's say a Christian denomination wants to build a community center in a place where an act of terrorism was committed by an extremist Christian - like Oklahoma City, Pensacola, Mobile, Brookline, Birmingham, Amherst, Wichita, etc., etc., ...  

    Would that be okay with you?  

    Parent

    You still don't get it, do you. (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:49:52 PM EST
    The point is that BOTH actions cause hurt.

    Makes no difference who.

    Parent

    No, but then again, I wouldn't (none / 0) (#161)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:57:24 PM EST
    I believe in logic.

    BTW - So you would oppose a Christian community center in a place where a Christian extremist had committed an act of terrorism, on the grounds that they both cause "hurt"?

    Parent

    Any Muslim group is the equivalent (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:34:33 PM EST
    of the KKK? Or is it just this particular one?

    The more you heavy-handedly fumble around in attempting to come up with "comparisons", the more you reveal your own KKK mindset.

    Parent

    Double standard? Squeaky you're funny (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:44:46 PM EST
    You think it OK for a mosque be build at GZ but not OK for the KKK to build at Lorraine?

    The result is the same. Hurt for the victims that both places represent.

    Hypocrite.

    Parent

    jim, (none / 0) (#83)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:49:17 PM EST
    Answer this question, please.  I have asked it to you more than once and you have dodged it.

    What if families of molested kids opposed the building of a Catholic church next to a school?  Would you agree the Church should refrain from building in order to spare the feelings of the families?

    Or, is the Catholic Church entitled to more deference than the Islmic faith?

     

    Parent

    The church (none / 0) (#85)
    by efm on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:52:06 PM EST
     has every right to build there just as the mosque has every right to build where it is building. Does that mean that they should? Both parties should take into account the feelings of the locals.

    Parent
    so you are saying (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:59:00 PM EST
    you think there should be no more Catholic schools?

    Parent
    for some reason I doubt (none / 0) (#94)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    that 70% of Americans would agree with that sentiment.  I wonder why...

    Parent
    having no (none / 0) (#103)
    by efm on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:11:18 PM EST
     churches period and building one where the church has offended and hurt the local population is different.
    I know some have called for there to be no more mosques to be built period, but you can't listen to every idiot on the street, and those idiots don't speak for the majority of people who are against this location for the mosque.

    Parent
    never gonna happen (none / 0) (#106)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:21:15 PM EST
    "building one where the church has offended and hurt the local population"

    the thing is, the catholic church hurt their own.  They build churches and schools in places where there are catholics, in those areas where the population was hurt - because thats where the catholics are.  Actually, in my city, one where the local population was effected, it's not really much of an issue since there were so many existing schools and a lot of them are closing due to lack of interest/students.  Partly as fallout from the whole fiasco.  But again, that's all coming from within the Catholic community, not outsiders.

    That being said, I don't see the local "abused" population of New York opposing this.  I see people outside of New York being offended on their behalf.  If they were consistent, the rest of the country would be offended on behalf of the Catholic neighborhoods as well.  But they aren't...

    Parent

    feelings of the locals? (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:08:41 PM EST
    the LOCAL community board approved the project . . .

    Parent
    So, your answer is--what? (none / 0) (#91)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:59:26 PM EST
    Of course, both have the right to build.  Nothing is more clearly and more firmly rooted in our Constitution.

    The question I posed is should the Catholic Church agree to not build a church next to school if families of molested kids protest?  Should the Church agree to spare their feelings out of good taste?

    Parent

    No one (none / 0) (#97)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:03:58 PM EST
    does anything out of good taste.

    But some public shaming and bad PR can probably stop the Catholic Church on its tracks. They will back down just because they don't want to see news stories after stories talking about priest molestation again since that has died down somewhat.

    I am quite sure they are happy to have OTHER controversies going on in the American public view.

    Parent

    They probably should (none / 0) (#105)
    by efm on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:18:35 PM EST
    Even though the Catholic Church as a whole condemns the priests molesting kids, just as Islam itself is against violence.
    The point is that they should consider and try to understand the feelings of those hurt, not just go around calling them bigots.

    Parent
    Yes, understand the feelings (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:39:54 PM EST
    and also understand how those feelings have been whipped up and manipulated through the use of media outlets by those with a consistent, clear-cut political agenda; who, as was noted yesterday, seem to think reason isn't a reliable enough guidepost, and have to rely on outright lies, such as that "opening date" baloney we discussed yesterday.

    We can "understand feelings" well, without making feelings the final arbiter of deliberated action..

    Parent

    You are consistent (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:41:08 PM EST
    But that is a precedent and a principle I cannot agree with.

    A church will always offend someone....Basing the exercise of one's First Amendment rights on whether on nor it will offend is to relinquish your rights....

    And, I think most opponents of the Manhattan Community Center will not agree with your view of deference....They would say, "tough beans," this is a Christian nation.

    jim, still waiting for you to weigh in on the building of Catholic Church next to a school.

    Parent

    Ask the question of a Catholic in an open (none / 0) (#159)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:52:31 PM EST
    thread and you two can discuss it for ever.

    And let me know when you find a spot where 3000 kids were abused by 13 priests....

    Parent

    Dodged it again (none / 0) (#175)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 06:24:34 PM EST
    Won't answer......

    Sure, 3000 deaths are worse than just about anything else.

    But thousands of abused kids matter too--and emotions are just as raw....

    You don't have to be Catholic to answer, jim.....

    Or maybe you have answered this questions by saying that the Catholic abuse scandal is not the same magnitude.....It is hard to tell....

    You have so much to say about Muslims....but not much when the scenario would involve a Christian religion.

    Parent

    I don't suffer people using strawmen (none / 0) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:42:38 PM EST
    very well.

    The two issues are not even close.

    Now,find a better attack.

    Parent

    Double standard? jimakappj, you're funny (none / 0) (#127)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:33:34 PM EST
    You think it OK for a church be build in Oklahoma City, Pensacola, Mobile, Brookline, Birmingham, Amherst, Wichita, etc., etc., but not for a community center to be built near GZ?

    The result is the same. Hurt for the victims that both places represent.

    Hypocrite.

    Parent

    There is a huge, huge, huge difference (none / 0) (#47)
    by tigercourse on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:11:35 PM EST
    between locking up an entire RACE of people and asking that some religious group reconsider where they are going to build their church. I'm rapidly losing interest in this matter and it pains me to be anywhere near the same side of an issue as Newt freaking Gingrich but I don't think we need the hyperbole from either side.

    Parent
    Same dynamic (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:18:04 PM EST
    Same guilt by association.  Same fear and ignorance....Same overwhelming bigotry.

    Have you seen the opposition to other mosques around the country?  Is not just Manhattan.

    You have always been opposed to the building of the community center out of being polite....thus tacitly accepting the idea that American Muslims are collectively guilty for 9/11. That is wrong.

    There may not be many who will stand with a despised minority.  But those who do, do so in the greatest tradition of our country....

    Parent

    I am an atheist. Here is an example. If (none / 0) (#70)
    by tigercourse on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:33:44 PM EST
    an atheist detonated a bomb in Atlanta and killed 3,000 people, I would be mortified by some atheist group coming along to build an "Atheist community center and anti-church". But that doesn't mean I hold all atheists (including myself) responsible for that attack.

    As a member of a despised minority, I wouldn't stand by other members who were trying to do that.

    Parent

    Don't buy it (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:37:32 PM EST
    You don't get to assign collective guilt.....

    Once you go down that road, of not building because it hurts others' (unfair) feelings, you end up with no First Amendment rights....

    You just reinforce the bigotted notions that American Muslims are disloyal Americans somehow responsible for 9/11.

     

    Parent

    Your view fuels (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:41:49 PM EST
    anti-Muslim sentiment across-the-board....

    Look at what is happening in other parts of the country....the opposition to other mosques....

    You need to stand up to a bully before he takes more of your rights away....

    It is not just this one "mosque."

    Parent

    then you would be (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:05:19 PM EST
    tacitly admitting that all atheists were in some way responsible for the bombing.

    not a great comparison in my opinion.

    if they owned the land I say go for it.


    Parent

    I don't think (none / 0) (#58)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:19:07 PM EST
    that was the case being made.

    It's more that - just because 70% of Americans think something is right, doesn't make it so.  Not opposing Mosque = Japanese Internment.

    Parent

    sorry, that should read (none / 0) (#61)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:20:10 PM EST
    Not, opposing Mosque

    Parent
    70% of the country (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:25:00 PM EST
    ... opposed women's suffrage.  70% of the country opposed racial integration of the military.  70% of the country opposed inter-racial marriage.  Etc., etc. etc ...

    Real leaders do what they can to push the country in the direction of what's right, rather than what's popular.

    Parent

    .. and it did NOT take .. (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:29:32 PM EST
    3 days, or even a week, of arguing and "leadership" to turn THOSE sentiments around. It took decades.

    Anyone who thinks that the country will be 70% for building the "cultural center" because you argue on a blog for a few days is delusional.

    It would be at least years, if not decades, before this kind of sentiment goes away.

    Parent

    True, but who will stand (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:39:45 PM EST
    on the side of right.....

    The more who do now, the earlier the day of the end of bigotry....

    Parent

    I think you are missing the point (none / 0) (#77)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:40:15 PM EST
    We're not saying we have to convince the other 70% that we are right.  We are saying "who cares?"  Why follow the 70% that's wrong?  It's not like they have any control/say over the issue.

    For that matter, it's not like politicians do either.  This is not something they have any say in one way or the other - regarding whether it gets built.  It's up to the local community zoning board.

    So who gives a $hit what 70% of America thinks about this.  Doesn't mean they are right.

    Parent

    That is very dangerous ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:46:49 PM EST
    70% americans would invariably contain a lot of nutcase that can do harmful things.

    Plus, politicians listen to the public. Sure, in this case, the 70% may not have authority, but certainly they can hurt in other ways. Do the mosque planners really want to be harassed as time goes on? Do they want to spend all their time fighting the PR wars?

    No one says the 70% are right. But there is power in numbers.  

    Parent

    True, and a super majority (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:56:07 PM EST
    in this country will get what it wants....

    But at one time, even slavery enjoyed overwhelming support.  And, indeed, the Bible said slavery was not only okay, but Paul told slaves to be subject to their masters....The Confederacy and the Old South used the Bible to justify slavery.....It had been a part of all civilizations...It was the Divine way of things...

    You have to stand up to bigotry.....To cave out of cowardice just postpones the day that the bigotry is repudiated....

    Go along to get along is of course the politic thing to do.....But if everyone did that, then there would be no one to speak out....

    Who has the courage to speak against bigotry?

    Parent

    The real question ... (none / 0) (#113)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:36:56 PM EST
    is not one about courage, but one about strategy.

    The question is what is the best way to change minds. Speaking out .. is not always the most effective way.

    Parent

    Disagree (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:45:47 PM EST
    Someone has to speak out...

    Going quietly into the night just encourages the bullies and bigots....

    You need to stand up and fight it--now.  Staying quiet can become a habit....You may not win this fight but you might the next, and you won't win unless you fight.

    The gay community, by and large, has learned this, I think.

    MLK had Malcolm X.

    Parent

    I don't think the gay community is (none / 0) (#121)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:00:16 PM EST
    very successful.

    They have some court victories but they were defeated again and again in propositions and initiative in state after state.

    Standing up works against individual bullies but i don't think it works as well towards a mass.

    I would argue education, and working behind the scenes, is prob more effective.

    Parent

    I agree with the strategy of (none / 0) (#122)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:06:16 PM EST
    trying to invalidate Prop 8 in the courts now.

    Some wanted to wait....

    But, to use another hackneyed metaphor in vogue around here by how often it is derided, you can only keep your powder dry for so long....

    Even in defeat, opinion moves.....

    Parent

    the gay (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:07:41 PM EST
    community did ok during the aids scare in the 80s when we could all ended up in camps.

    when we are against a wall watch out.


    Parent

    regarding strategy (none / 0) (#116)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:43:53 PM EST
    what do you think is more important for America's future:

    • changing the perception of Americans towards Muslims

    • changing the perception of Muslims towards Americans

    It's an honest question, and I'm not 100% sure I know the right answer.  I think both are important.

    Parent
    BOTH is the obvious (none / 0) (#119)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:57:04 PM EST
    answer.

    I am not sure perception is a easy thing to change. Sometimes it will have to take generations.

    Parent

    And the answer is (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:43:24 PM EST
    Islam has never had a Reformation.

    When it does, and when it eliminates the more negative parts of Sharia law the problems will go away.

    Parent

    Obviously moderate Muslims (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:51:32 PM EST
    have already had their "Reformation".

    And if you're trying to make sort of analogy with the Protestant Reformation, the Protestant Reformation didn't do much to eliminate religious persecution, torture, burnings, wholesale abuse of power..etc

    What you seem to be groping for is the need for "reformation" in countries like SA, China, India etc where institutionalized barbarism is often the order of the day..

    But you obviously want to make it about Islam and not barbarism per se..

    Parent

    Reformation would be a nice starting point (none / 0) (#181)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:49:13 PM EST
    It eventually worked.

    And you ignore my comment re Sharia law and the problems it brings to us.

    Parent

    I agree there is a public safety issue (none / 0) (#89)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:57:49 PM EST
    here.  That being said, I believe it's up to those in charge of the project to determine whether they think it's worth it to fight or not.  I wouldn't be surprised if they decided not, for exactly that reason.

    That being said, there were public safety issues associated for fighting for those other things as well.  That doesn't mean you just cow-tow to the majority.  Some things are worth fighting for.  I think it's up to those involved to determine whether they think this is a fight they are willing to pick.

    Parent

    I do not think the center (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:03:03 PM EST
    will be built.   They will probably be hounded out of town by the mob.

    But religious conservatives will rue the day they were on the wrong side of this.

    Catholics and Mormons may face public opposition to their building in gay-friendly communities.....

    This "no-build to spare feelings" standard will cut a wide swath.....

    Parent

    I find all the catholic (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    "building churches next to schools" comparison funny.

    I guess no one has ever heard of Catholic schools.  Or bothered to protest one.  Because no one cares.

    Parent

    Yep, few tar the entire church to (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:25:36 PM EST
    that extent.....

    Just a few bad apples works for Catholics but not Muslims.....

    Parent

    it's different too (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by CST on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:35:55 PM EST
    the difference is for the catholic church there is a hierarchy.  People in charge.  Personally, I tar all those in charge.  Not the Catholic population though, for the most part I think they are victims in this.  But Muslims have no pope.  There are two many different factions so they all get lumped together.  With the Catholic church there is a pretty clear line with who is to blame.

    Honestly I know I am a bit of a "hater" personally with this church.  I would just like to explain that it comes from a lifetime (although short one) of frustration and the child-abuse thing is really just the tip of the iceberg for me personally.  I realize I may not always be rational about all things Catholic.  I just really don't like many things about the irish-catholic culture in my 'hood - specifically as it relates to their political/social influence - we're almost never on the same side of any issue.  Sometimes it's hard to seperate that feeling from the rest of it.

    Parent

    Standing up to mobs (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:21:17 PM EST
    When I was a Sophomore in High School, there was a big protest against the school cafeteria charging for extra hamburgers.  The entire school got the idea to boycott lunch one day in protest.

    So, after  a normal daily headcount of who would eat the school lunch--that is how they used to do it--no one would eat the cafeteria food and it would all have to be thrown out....

    I thought it was nuts.  School lunches are  subsidized by the feds....The additional amount charged by the school for the extra hamburger was below cost....Throwing out food when people are going hungry is just wrong.

    So, I refused to be part of it....

    Me and six scared kids who huddled behind me faced down the whole school to go through the line.....

    Parent

    Funny (none / 0) (#182)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 11:39:44 PM EST
    In my HS, we had a huge spontaneous protest one day because the "hamburgers" were inedible.  This was the '60s.  A huge ruckus was created when kids started banging -- yes, that's banging -- the so-called hamburgers on the cafeteria tables and all singing the Animals "We Got to Get Out of This Place.''  One of my happier moments in HS.

    Not that it changed anything, but it was eminently worth it to scare and confuse the bejesus out of the school authorities.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:43:20 AM EST
    You are FOS as usual, and it comes as no surprise that Americans are any different from any other people who were manipulated by evil.

    Germans.... etc

    Parent

    Ah now you break out (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:17:50 PM EST
    the old "Americans are like Germans" argument.

    Nice insult and nice smear.

    But that's what you do.

    Now, altogether, Squeaky says....

    Parent

    Btw, Jim (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:41:04 PM EST
    What's your source for that b.s you're posting at your website about the center being scheduled to open on the tenth anniversary of 9/11?

    Parent
    crickets...crickets.. (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 03:33:23 PM EST
    Your numbers prove my assesment in another (none / 0) (#98)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:03:58 PM EST
    post. American are mostly morons. By your numbers, 70% of them.

    Parent
    Nonsense (none / 0) (#33)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:45:26 AM EST
    And furthermore, it's just false.

    Parent
    make that two "thoughts" (none / 0) (#126)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:28:09 PM EST
    Empathy (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:13:14 PM EST
    Just think how it feels for American Muslims to be counted as less than other Americans....

    They have to move to the back of the bus to spare other people's feelings when they have done nothing wrong.

    Is that right?

    Parent

    What A Load, Imo (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 08:06:33 AM EST
    This is a PR disaster for the Muslim community. They allowed the Taliban and Al-Qaeda to define them.

    You allowed the taliban and Al-Qaeda to define them. American Muslims had nothing to do with it.

    Parent

    Is John Walker Lindh an ... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by nyrias on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:07:16 PM EST
    American muslim?

    The correct statement is MOST (but not all) American Muslims have nothing to do with it.

    Furthermore, "guilty by association" is a pretty prevalent human emotion. The overwhelming opposition (by polls) to the mosque is evidence of it.

    I thought you will be more savvy to know that perception is important .. and shaping perception is the name of the PR game.

    Parent

    Many Muslims (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by hookfan on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:36:12 PM EST
    both here (US) and around the world did speak out against it. There were lots of press releases but many seem to have forgotten that. And TV? Not like they loved to fan the flames of hatred. Nothing like blaming the victim making them responsible for their suffering is there?

    Parent
    I am not blaming anyone. (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:45:50 PM EST
    I am looking at thing logically.

    Parent
    I am not blaming anyone. (none / 0) (#157)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 04:45:57 PM EST
    I am looking at thing logically.

    Parent
    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by hookfan on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:12:11 PM EST
    I think you are putting the cart before the horse,because I believe a pr offensive would be totally useless. All that's happening if the mosque is not built now is teaching and reinforcing the notion that rights should not be acted upon without the permission of the bigots. Gives them too much power,imo. Even more so if we fall into the trap of trying to determine how much pr is enough or effective enough-- especially when "not enough pr" can be utilized against the minority and excuse the actions of the bigots.
       However, ongoing statements while the mosque is being built is not delegitimized by what I've said. I just don't believe it will do any good and will be more like pissing into the wind. I predict overwhelmingly what you'd hear would be disbelief and statements abouthow they "doth protest too much".
       Naw. Build the damn mosque and show the community through their prosocial works what they are all about.

    Parent
    I think you've missed the point of my posts. (none / 0) (#184)
    by mexboy on Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 05:03:31 AM EST
    I know that if I was a leader in religion X and my goal was to follow my god's commandments, part of that would be loving and not causing my neighbors any grief of pain. I would have to examine my actions in the light of my goals and their perceived effects and I would have to weigh the consequences of my actions.

    If I believed I was right I would seek ways of reassuring the non believers in my faith, that I, as a person of god, would not cause them harm and I would apologize for those misguided members of my faith who were terrorizing others in the name of my god and my religion. I would take it upon myself to make sure they understood my branch of religion x was peaceful.

    You cannot ignore the terrorist attacks that are being carried out by members of the Muslim religion throughout the world--there are plenty of sites online that have that information, but I will not link them because I have no way of verifying all their claims.

    The question Jeralyn posed was about where all the emotion is coming from. I believe the emotion is coming from those terrorist attacks by a powerful and vocal group within the Muslim community, and the lack of adequate response by the moderate members of the religion. Shouldn't they speak out and make it clear that those terrorists have hijacked their faith and that their religion is a peaceful one? And shouldn't they do it as often as necessary?

    You cannot ignore the destruction of the twin towers changed our way of life forever and you cannot deny the attacks were successful in making people fearful. This I think is the foundation of the emotion. To call everyone who opposes the mosque a bigot is simplistic and unhelpful.

    If you want to solve a problem you have to understand it's origins and you have to take corrective action. I firmly believe the mosque should be built (if it doesn't we all lose) but I have not seen much proactive action from the Iman in order to accomplish his goals successfully.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#188)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 09:15:03 AM EST
    Still spouting bigotry...  

    Funny by your logic you would have been apologizing for all the bad Mexicans, that is if you are Mexican.

    Parent

    You are incapable of logic. (none / 0) (#190)
    by mexboy on Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 05:01:14 PM EST
    You're analogy would make sense if a member of my immediate family has terrorized a community and I wanted to build a center to promote my family values in their community.

    But don't let that stop you, race bait me and accuse me of

    Still spouting bigotry...  

    It is obvious you are more interested in arguing than an adult discussion.

    Parent

    Rose colored glasses (none / 0) (#189)
    by hookfan on Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 12:11:27 PM EST
    on the one hand, blaming the victims on the other and all the while avoiding the responsibility of the bigots to manage their own feelings. Crap, I could be nasty and point out even Jesus couldn't manage that with the bigots he faced. Luckily we have a constitution that supposedly prevents crucifixion for acting within our rights.

    Parent
    Knee-jerk reaction. (none / 0) (#191)
    by mexboy on Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 05:45:28 PM EST
    Show me where I do this:
    on the one hand, blaming the victims on the other and all the while avoiding the responsibility of the bigots to manage their own feelings.

    Why do some people have the need for things to be black or white? They are not! Whenever there is any kind of disagreement all parties in the disagreement have responsibilities. I do not subscribe to the "victim" mentality. People can be victimized but not retreat like victims. Mandela is a great example of this!

    My entire discussion on this subject has been about ways the Muslim community can win this battle and build the center. If you had bothered to read my posts you would see that.

    You are now trying to make this about one religion VS another?

    I could be nasty and point out even Jesus couldn't manage that with the bigots he faced.

    I do not belong to any religion but can you please point out where Jesus faced bigots and how he handled them? Chapter and Verse would be good.

    Exaggerations like this hinder the cause you are trying to help:

    Luckily we have a constitution that supposedly prevents crucifixion for acting within our rights.

    You may not agree with the way I would handle this situation, but if I was in charge of building this center I'd hire the best PR campaign available and win the hearts and minds of the uninformed who oppose me. Soon they'd be volunteering at my center because I'd help them realize the danger a precedent like this would set for their own religion and the freedoms we hold dear as Americans.

    Victim mentality will get you victimized. Proactive action will get you what you want. If we don't understand what motivates others to oppose us, we will never be able to offer them solutions to free them from the emotion that is motivating them to act against our interests.

    There is nothing more I can offer this discussion. Have a good day.

    Parent

    Re: Clemens ... This is basically what I said (none / 0) (#1)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:18:16 PM EST
    your comment raises another issue (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:59:59 PM EST
    Intent...what if he was in such denial he thought he hadn't gotten steroid shots? An interesting take:

    To win a perjury trial the prosecution has to prove that an individual not only lied, but that he knowingly lied. Beyond a reasonable doubt.

        From what I understand, their whole case is based on Andy Pettitte's testimony against Clemens. Pettitte is an admitted liar and an admitted steroids user.

        Clemens has never backed off on his claim that he never used. Now the prosecution has to not only prove that Clemens took steroids, but they have to prove the he wasn't in denial at the time, and knew full well what he was doing.

        This is why so few perjury cases are pursued. It's a near impossible task. You need overwhelming evidence. Not the testimony of a couple of known liars, in a "He said, she said" case.



    Parent
    Is a court going to look into (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:46:57 PM EST
    Congress's "real" intentions for holding the hearings? I think that sounds like a pretty bad idea. I mean, just what attempts would have to make to legislate? Write up a press release? Introduce a bill? Get co-sponors? Hold committee discussion? Floor debate? I could  imagine resulting bad consequences for the Speech or Debate Clause.

    For the record, I do not care whether Roger Clemens or anyone else took steroids.

    I agree Jeralyn, all that raw emotion (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:08:53 PM EST
    could be spent on something positive like flea baths.

    We will release Turdey tomorrow night after dinner because our daughter really disturbed our evening tonight.  She called before dinner and her dad answered the phone but she won't talk to him, says she needs to talk to mom.

    So it turns out that there was a litter of puppies that were six weeks old and are supposed to be half Lab and half Bull Mastiff being given away in front of the grocery store.  There were nine total, and some guys showed up and took four males when my daughter was walking out of the store.  There was another large male that had been born stub tailed and one of the guys thought maybe the dog had birth defects but the other guy said a dog without a tail had an advantage.  Fighting dogs is huge down here and that is what she figured they were talking about so she walked up and said that she wanted that dog and called her mother.

    I asked if he had shots, he had had none and in this heat parvo is rampant.  So I told she had probably better bring him over right now.  When they got here he was crawling with fleas, I've never seen that many fleas on 7 lbs of dog in my whole life.  After three layers of flea shampoo and a dose of Capstar I think he is done literally crawling.  That many fleas means tape worm though so he got a puppy dose of the nastiest dewormer and his first dose of heartworm medication too.  Then I gave him his first puppy shot.  Her dad stood there shaking his head at her but she asked me what I would have done and after thinking about it I would have done the same thing.  She will now try to find him a home ON HER OWN, because if two babies is near back breaking two babies and a Bull Mastiff something is looney bin :)  But she did leave with him, he is not my job now.

    Thankfully (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:39:28 PM EST
    the only thing I've 'ended up with' since the move here is a bird via sis.  Hopefully I've gotten a message across that I'm 'full' and have serious "personalities" here {grin}

    Thank your daughter for me for saving the lil' (for now!) guy :) and thank you for the major assist :D I'll try not to think about the other 4 :( And here's hoping the one guy doesn't scissor the ears as an 'advantage'. 6 weeks old and just tossed to the first taker :(

    Got pics of the pupper?

    Parent

    I had to wash him so many times (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:28:19 AM EST
    He was completely fed up with me.  I've never seen a poor dog with such fleas.  Once they began to die from the Capstar I had to get them out of his coat.  He has a very plush puppy coat.  I finished his bathing with Isle of Dogs shampoo which should do a lot to help his skin irritation from so many fleas gnawing on him, and he smelled good from it.

    But between all that scrubbing, and then injecting, and making him swallow things that tasted flat evil, he only snuggled with me for a bit in a towel.  He really wanted my daughter and fell asleep in her lap.  I don't know if we will get any good snaps of him, I would say it would depend on how long before she finds a suitable home.  I told her to stick with advertising him on post because the soldiers have the money and usually the gumption to care for big dogs.  He is solid black with a lab looking head, very heavily muscled legs though and you can feel big muscles under his fur on his bod.  And when I checked his puppy teeth he was indeed about six weeks but he had the longest canine puppy teeth I have ever seen.  I'm not at all familiar with Mastiffs though, but wow such teeth.  He barely has enough flew to cover the length of them.  He is really too little to be without his mommy though.  It is best to not leave your doggy mommy until you are past nine weeks if it can be helped.  I have known many really good dogs though that people had to take at around six weeks.  They are emotionally though very tender and can have their personalities bruised so we will have to be careful with him and where ever he goes.  He's going to be a massive dog.

    Parent

    Do you prefer (none / 0) (#140)
    by hookfan on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 03:28:40 PM EST
    Capstar to Frontline? I'm using Frontline on my 1 yr old bitch Bichon and have had good results. But I'm open to improvements. . .

    Parent
    I use Frontline and I love it (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 06:05:18 PM EST
    It works great around here even in the worst of times, like right now.  I keep some Capstar around simply because it is so flea infested around here and it can take a little while for Frontline to fully kick in if someone is infested. But it was a dose that was from last year that I picked up toodling around Jeffers.

    I tend to always keep a few things on hand.  I usually have a few puppy shots in the fridge too, they are cheap and too many people saving a puppy can't afford an immediate dumping of a couple of hundred dollars in vet bills so it can provide a bit of a buffer in between a dumped puppy and getting it all together and getting to the vet. And they are cheap...about five dollars a shot for me and I give the one that covers the most.

    He had been scrubbed and scrubbed though last night and he was soaking wet/body temp dropping and sick of me so I told my daughter we would Frontline him in a few days when he was dry, rested, and not as sick of me.  He is very playful today, so it looks good that he has likely avoided parvo.  I have no idea when he last nursed or how much immunity he still had from his momma.  If we are going to have a litter I usually give the momma a booster too when she is in heat so she is building titers during her pregnancy and has them to pass on.  Parvo is everywhere down here.

    Parent

    Your life is never, ever dull, is it. (none / 0) (#12)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:19:28 PM EST
    Nope (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:29:10 PM EST
    It must be that "creative class" thing :)

    Parent
    Wrong. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:40:37 PM EST
    creative class = dull and out of touch.

    Parent
    Heard a radio (AM) talk show guy yesterday (none / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 11:10:22 PM EST
    who seemed to only entertain callers re Second Amendment.  Who is this guy?

    A comment with profanity (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:24:12 AM EST
    was deleted. Please don't use it and remember the commenting rules here. Thanks.

    It is nonsense (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:03:18 PM EST
    They knew what would happen and it is happening.

    The results speak for themselves.

    And if you believe they didn't know...

    Why do they continue now that they do know?

    The only answer is they want to hurt. And they have tried to use our tolerance to do so. I again quote that well known conservative (sarcasm alert) Karl Popper:

    Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."


    and you would know nonsense (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:55:34 PM EST
    I suppose.

    I cant believe I am wasting my time but whatever:

    first, why would they "know what would happen"
    they own the land.  doesnt that mean anything to you property rights people?  how and why on earth would they "know" they could not build a community center on land they own?

    second, "Why do they continue"
    one reason could be that the Imam is out of the country on an outreach mission for the state department.  sounds like a really dangerous guy.

    third, being lectured by you on tolerance is just to silly to even think about.


    Parent

    Again, claiming that (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:51:16 PM EST
    the proponents didn't  know what would happen is not believable.

    That the DOS is screwed in the head and is using this guy for anything is plain to see.

    And it appears that you do need a lecture on tolerance. Think about it.

    Parent

    I think it's pretty clear. (none / 0) (#88)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:56:45 PM EST
    Americans, by and large, are morons.

    PatHAt - I'm not the one trying (none / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 02:48:10 PM EST
    to insult and build a hurtful "church" in SA....

    I trust you can see the difference.

    Oh wait! I'm supposed to be deferential to their culture but they aren't to mine!

    Gee. Now I understand your point.

    Yes (none / 0) (#163)
    by coast on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:00:49 PM EST
    Us southern boys are jumping in our pick-ups and driving to NYC to protest the placement of some building...please.

    I agree some PR may help, but that does require (none / 0) (#169)
    by vicndabx on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:33:57 PM EST
    unbiased media participation.  At best, they could take out an ad in a leading news journal.  Need money to do that though.

    As to this point:

    African Americans, Women and Gays did not do anything similar, so this is a non-sequitur.

    You are forgetting that many felt/feel these groups would sully America w/what was perceived as inherent weaknesses.  "Do anything similar" is very subjective.

    I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by mexboy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:52:42 PM EST
    In one you have actual physical destruction and on the record proclamation of some leaders of the religion stating they want the destruction of the great Satan, the good ol' USA. On the other fear and ignorance but no actual harm.

    You can't brush facts under the rug and pretend they didn't happen. You have to deal with them and let the public know you condemn those acts and how you differ from your brethren in the religion.It may not be fair, but it is a fact in today's society.

    Parent

    We agree on the PR. If only to combat misinfo (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by vicndabx on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 06:37:16 PM EST
    However, I would submit they've done this already:

    condemn those acts and {show} how you differ from your brethren

    Black militants hate the country.  Gays want to destroy the family; ergo, the US.....

    How actions/words of some w/in the oppressed group are interpreted by the oppressing group, and how those are used by the oppressing group as "evidence" to support continued oppression - this is nothing new.  

    The statements by a few about 9/11 is but another example.

    Parent

    My sense is that a certain (none / 0) (#170)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:40:54 PM EST
    coalition on the Right would have a difficult time carrying a national election without the Gays-helped-cause-9/11 contingent..

    Parent
    Repetition, repetition... (none / 0) (#177)
    by NYShooter on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 08:12:14 PM EST
    Pressed for an opinion, I think the Park 51 project should be built where the owners want to build it. I believe the 1'st amendment, and the rule of law, including all the local laws, statutes, codes, and rules, having been properly observed, trump all other issues being presented. 100 years from now this issue will be a faint memory, but the Constitution, and the rule of law, will continue to lead us.

    Having said that, I'm amazed at how many experts we have here regarding Islam. We know its only a tiny fraction that harbor ill will towards Western civilization, we know Islam is like any other religion, and we know that anyone who expresses any doubts, or has any questions, is, of course, a bigot.

    I have doubts and questions, and I'm going to embark on a study of Islam to try to get a better understanding of it's philosophy.

    But what I'm not going to do is add fuel to the fire by asking questions where screeching, mindless retorts like "STFU!", you're "FOS!", or BS! , or the latest addition, "bed wetter" is tolerated.
    Maybe peppering these infantile scribbles with countless "lol's" makes it o.k. but somehow, I don't think so.


    Lots of Muslims (none / 0) (#183)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 11:50:21 PM EST
    around the world harbor ill will toward the U.S. and or Western civilization.  Why wouldn't they? Lots of Christians around the world also harbor ill will towards the U.S.

    Harboring ill will is not the issue.  Approving of and supporting terrorism is the issue.

    Do read up on Islam.  You may be very surprised.

    Parent

    I am sure Islam is as loathsome (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by observed on Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 08:39:37 AM EST
    as every other major religion. Whether it is any worse, I can't say.

    Parent
    finally (none / 0) (#186)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 08:47:00 AM EST
    something we agree on

    Parent
    I think it was hookfan that was wondering (none / 0) (#187)
    by observed on Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 09:00:11 AM EST
    why people weren't condeming Buddhism for its treatment of women. I'm sure that for most of us, the reason is ignorance, and not approval.


    Parent