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Obama Speech Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Obama Administration
Posted on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 07:24:34 PM EST
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    Obama Speech Open Thread | 94 comments (94 topical)

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    I learned something about grace (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:16:25 PM EST
    Faced with the challenge of weaving together the ending of a divisive war with the need to direct that one-time American energy toward righting the economy, President Obama genuinely thanked the troops and challenged the homefront. For me, that made sense. (Note: I opposed the Iraq War with such passion that a number of us pulled together a peace conference over the course of several months prior to the March '03 start of that war. A special learning opportunity at the time involved a Shi'ite imam in Denver who served on the planning committee with me.) With my own history of strong opposition to the war from the start, I was surprised at the letting-go that accompanied the President's forthright background explanation & delivery.
    What particularly struck me was the dignity and rightness he conveyed when referencing his call to former President W (in almost every moment past, W being a name that when said made me utter all kinds of curses or gag reflexes.) President Obama directly stated that it was no secret that he and Bush had disagreed about the war, but that he had no doubt that Bush believed in his position AND that there were patriots on both sides. To me, that was almost startling in its simplicity. Yet, I cannot recall another President saying that a disagreement existed with another President---from the Oval Office. I ramble on because: After Vietnam and after other "war" engagements, it has become so customary to bash war opponents as not patriotic (Cheney was saying that not so long ago.) It was important to make a clear, definitive statement like that from the Oval Office in a national address--I think. Because the corrosive effect over the years has helped tear apart our national fabric. President Obama handled that affirmation with a grace & dignity that has been missing from our national milieu for a long time, imo.

    George W. Bush deserves our (5.00 / 8) (#11)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:51:27 PM EST
    contempt and an indictment, not nice words about his patriotism. He led our nation into an unnecessary war to satisfy some personal, familial itch. Thousands upon thousands of lives were lsot, trillions of dollars were thrown to the winds, the infrastructure of Iraq was destroyed, and Iraq is on the verge of a bloody civil war. Awar they are facing because of George W. Bush.

    Obama's kind words for our former president are just one of a piece with his ridiculous insistence on "looking forward, not back." The previous administration was littered with war criminals. Obama does our country no good by continuing to sweep under the rug the crimes committed in our name.

    Parent

    That is not the point (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:31:43 PM EST
    George W Bush is, without any doubt on my part, one of the worst Presidents this country has ever had. (I only say "one of" because Reagan's brand of conservatism has had further reaching hurtful effect in the domestic sense.) Even with that, the manner of acknowledging that people can disagree--vehemently--and still be openly regarded as patriots.  It was the "finger in the eye" and "d***d to H*l attitude seen in earlier wars (read: Vietnam) and at the outset of the Iraq war (see the howling horde of media led by Cheney et al) that has left so many good Americans with such division, with such hurt.

    My personal feelings about W have modulated from a raging anger to a realization that he recedes into history. It serves us much better, I think, to take the higher road that President Obama travels. It isn't just a "turn the other cheek" thing...because W doesn't matter anymore. At this stage of my life, I really don't have the time nor inclination to get into a pig fight with him. Better that we start trying to set out along the road so many of us have preached we favor. (And, its also more pragmatic because the pigfight and the vengeance thing usually doesn't satisfy, in my experience. When I've sought retribution and got too entangled in my emotions, no matter how justified, it only leaves an empty, sour feeling.)
    And, as to kind words: By doing the civil thing all the way around, he honors those who did their best in service; he displays the kind of restraint we should expect in a President when he resists the temptation to enjoy a moment's one-upmanship.


    Parent

    Recedes into history? (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:48:21 PM EST
    bush will recede into history when his successors in the oval office repudiate and stop furthering and executing bush's 'policies'.

    Parent
    It most certainly is the point. (5.00 / 11) (#24)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:54:18 PM EST
    Bush was not acting as a patriot when he lied and connived us into Iraq. He is a war criminal. And acting like opposition to Iraq was just a family quarrel with no harm done borders on the criminal.

    Perhaps if we had actually hashed out everything about Vietnam, how we got there, why we stayed, and held people accountable for their decisions, we would not have rushed into Iraq. The reason we seem to be continually fighting the battles of the '60s is because we never dealt honestly and openly with what happened to our nation. The truth did not come out. So, lying politicians like Reagan and Nixon were able to exploit the raw emotions and the lack of information.

    Politicians must be accountable for the decisions they make. And when they commit crimes, they must be prosecuted, not praised for their patriotism. And when our country goes off the rails, we must make an honest accounting if we hope to ever avoid making the same horrific decisions over and over.

    This is not a "good people can disagree" situation. We invaded a sovereign nation that had done nothing to us, was not any danger to us. We proceeded to destroy that nation. Our actions led to the deaths of untold hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of the citizens of that nation.

    By letting Bush escape the consequences of his crimes, Obama sets the stage for some other president to once again, in a fit of pique or testosterone poisoning or whatever, lead our nation into an unnecessary, costly and illegal war.

    Bush should be prosecuted, and Obama should be roundly condemned for kissing up to Bush and sweeping these crimes under the rug. They both dishonor our country.

    Parent

    Well said. (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 02:29:28 AM EST
    By letting Bush escape the consequences of his crimes, Obama sets the stage for some other president to once again, in a fit of pique or testosterone poisoning or whatever, lead our nation into an unnecessary, costly and illegal war.

    Absolutely.

    I wonder if he is even setting the stage for something "patriotic" that he has up his sleeve...

    Parent

    The question of Crime & Punishment (none / 0) (#80)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 11:34:23 AM EST
    is a central question of humanity. I agree. Tho, here is that side of the argument that you do not seem to accept: History will judge Bush...no matter how much we "hash out" culpability in an administration that follows, it really would only be a footnote historically. In fact, it may be that one of the reasons those of us in the midst of Vietnam still talk about it and still hold on to our opinions of culpability (both side--trans: now known as the cultural wars)is because we could or would not get beyond it. We could not acknowledge the depth of belief on both sides; we could not realize and say that there were "patriots" on both sides; we could not learn from it (hence, maybe, Iraq) AND let go; no...forgiveness was not to be found. So, we aging and aged baby-boomers still play out our anger culturally. Bah! Enough!
    So--after the individual moral dilemma, there is a pragmatic issue. Initially, I was somewhat disappointed that we would not pursue an investigation as to war criminality for the instigation of the Iraq War. Considering now what Bush bequeathed to us all the way around in terms of the state of our society economically and otherwise, quite frankly...we would be more scattered and challenged than we have been in the past year. Pursuing the previous administration in a criminal case is no different than the whoever-is-in goes after-whoever-is-out. H***, that goes back to the emperors and it continues to exist in dictatorial countries. I'm not interested in that momentary self-indulgence ("we got 'em") that will take us all away from the very real problems facing us now. Not because I'm too good or above it.  Far from it. It is because that doesn't work as a resolver; it only fans the flames for the other side in an unending dervish of a dance.
    History will judge; and, that is ok with me. (BTW, the guy my husband & I once detested about Vietnam was Robert McNamara. He died this past year. He has receded into history.)

    Parent
    Christine, asI've read your comments here and in (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by caseyOR on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 04:23:21 PM EST
    other threads,  I have often been perplexed by your insistence that we should "settle", that a piece of cr@p, although smelly and useless, is still better than nothing. What is it with this constant apologia for Obama and the Dems?  There is apparently no low to which the Democrats can sink that is too far for you to excuse and defend.

    Perhaps the many years working for the federal gov't, which you repeatedly assert as the source of your insight into what is "possible", had a more deleterious effect on your world view than you realize. Perhaps it is a kind of bureaucratic stockholm syndrome.

    The chickens, as I learned during my midwestern childhood, always come home to roost. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine, but come they will. And the history you cite as the "punishment" for Bush's crimes, will most likely condemn all of us for our cowardly failure to confront these crimes and these criminals at a time when it might have done some good.

    This refusal to do the hard work of confronting these crimes here and now only pushes the time of reckoning down the road and most certainly ensures that the inevitable calling to account will be even more painful and disrupting to the nation.

    But hey, you won't have to live through the uncomfortableness, and that's what's really important, isn't it?

    Parent

    To: caseyOR (none / 0) (#91)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 05:05:49 PM EST
    No Stockholm Syndrome here! If you were acquainted with me, it would be difficult to voice any such sentiments about me with a straight face.  Certainly, my willingness to write into a group with a very different point-of-view than mine might suggest that conformity is not my style.

    A few things: (1) I am a Democrat...a liberal Democrat...I've been a Democrat all my life; and, when not Hatched, generally campaigned in offices, networks, & calling...I supported Hillary Clinton during the primary season, contributing $$ and work energy...I strongly support President Obama in his role as President (tho, my approach on the stimulus has always mirrored P. Krugman's.)  I do not know your political affiliation.  (2) For a number of reasons in the family and in quiet personal tribute then to my father and now to my sister, I supported health care reform in the early 1990s and I supported it throughout the push for it this past year. My preference definitely would have been for a public option; but, given the number of years, the fight has failed to achieve anything at all because of ideological inclinations on both sides, I accepted the start and movement forward that we accomplished. (The late Sen. Kennedy once referred to his own regreat that he was too rigid in the matter years earlier.)  In sum: Calling the reform a name is calling it a name. I consider it progress; you don't.  (3) It isn't from my employ that I have adopted a position than you might disdain as too malleable or wavering. It is my life experiences. As for you, I have no idea what you believe and what you will put yourself on the line for. Based upon your comments, I only know of your vituperation. And, that is ultimately up to you.


    Parent

    History will judge Bush? (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 04:35:25 PM EST
    Maybe. Guess it will depend on who writes the historical account. As, history judges Bush, so will it judge the citizens of this country. Because by moving on, the country has set the precedent that his actions were within the acceptable boundaries of what is moral and legal behavior. Obama's comments add a great deal of weight to this assessment.

    Parent
    You don't acknowledge the (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by observed on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 06:59:24 AM EST
    patriotism of a scoundrel in any positive sense. It's an insult to all sides.
    Republicans won't buy it, and only Joe Lieberman democrats can possibly approve.

    Parent
    We are really not talking about individuals (none / 0) (#81)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 11:43:18 AM EST
    We are talking about our country. It is about time we acknowledged that "patriots" existed on both sides. We may actually be focusing on two different points.

    Parent
    I believe you praised Obama for (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by observed on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 11:46:02 AM EST
    noting that Bush is a patriot. That is my point of disagreement.


    Parent
    Correction (none / 0) (#89)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 04:42:38 PM EST
    I commend the President for saying--from the Oval Office--that there were "patriots on both sides." (The fact that he did not question Bush's persoanl conscience is good, too. Not because he shouldn't do so privately; but, because it sets an example of tolerance of others beliefs. Because it is the opposite of the way Bush/Cheney disparaged those of us who disagreed with their war.) President Obama led by showing true presidential comportment befitting the office he holds and from which he spoke.

    Speaking to a dear friend today: She remarked how good it felt to "hear the olive branch" of being called a patriot. We had been speaking of the chain of war since Vietnam.

    Parent

    Almost forgot (none / 0) (#19)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:39:35 PM EST
    The downside of investigating and pursuing a previous administration (in a legal sense) relentlessly is that the lines start to blur with the tinpots. There is nothing unusual in getting even--to the point of jailing--previous rulers in history. What is unusual is to have the guts to resist that path.

    Parent
    Well it would have been (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by brodie on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:49:13 PM EST
    unusual for a Dem president to actually hold his predecessor accountable for wrongdoing, lawbreaking and the rest.  And the easy way out has been to not investigate, and just say It's time to move on.

    Unfortunately, that's just encouraged the other side.  Probably starting with Nixon in '68 and his known illegal effort to thwart the Paris peace talks.  Dem wimpery at holding Repub felons to account might have started with Lyndon.

    Parent

    Obama (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 02:33:07 AM EST
    didn't have to call W. the names that he richly deserves - but he doesn't have to help refurbish the s.o.b. -- calling him a patriot - appointing him to save the Haitians...

    Obama is just doing what he does best - bullsh-ting us.

    Parent

    There's a difference between (5.00 / 11) (#45)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 07:09:23 AM EST
    getting even and getting justice, don't you think?

    Maybe if you think of it as "democracy maintenance" instead of "revenge" it would assume a higher priority and purpose.

    This stuff that has been done in our name doesn't just go away because we decide to move on; there have been too many lives lost to death, too many lost to grievous mental and physical injury, we've tortured and violated rights in ways we probably still don't know the extent of, given gazillions to contractors with little or no accountability, and have "moved on" to show trials and preventive detention and given the authoritarians in power some great ideas about how to treat American citizens.

    These aren't footnotes, they are a portfolio, a template, instruction manual.  They are precedent.

    Does no one have the courage to set any boundaries on executive power?  Are we really, seriously thinking that patriotic good intentions are enough to prevent further and more draconian incursions on our rights and freedoms?

    Saying that George Bush loves his country is like saying that a man who physically and mentally abuses his wife...loves her; that's not love, that's power, and as long as it is allowed to grow unchecked, with no accountability, we will continue to suffer the abuse that flows from it.

    Rather than admiring the grace of Obama's respect for George Bush, I would think it more appropriate to be thoroughly chilled by what his kinship with him actually means.

    Parent

    There is a difference between (none / 0) (#83)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 12:03:10 PM EST
    revenge and justice. There is also an extra dimension here in that this fork-in-the-road isn't just a choice between "good & evil." IMO, the tremendous costs involved in going down the road of pursuit to right the obvious wrong that W and his band committed are too high in terms of rending the fragile bonds in this country. If we think that there are distractions today that keep the country from pulling back together and improving, the total immersion in a war criminal pursuit would dwarf everything. Without any doubt, we would be split as a country even more than we are now...and, who would then even care to hear the cry of the poor? Then, should justice be served, the adherents of the Bushes would pursue us in turn.  
    Someone has to pull us out of this dangerous eddy of destructive internal anger. Being half Slovenian, I really do not want to see us head in Yugoslavian-type direction. Again, History should and will judge. (And, hopefully, some here can help write the first reviews.)
    Ah sigh...I do appreciate your words here, Anne. You speak with conviction, concern, and awareness of varying positions. (My convictions on Crime & Punishment are stated above...and derived, in part, from the novel of the same name.)

    Parent
    "Sigh" is right, Christine. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 02:11:25 PM EST
    How much more fragile are the bonds that hold the country together if we do nothing?  And as much as history will judge Bush and Cheney and the rest of their accomplices and enablers, so will we be judged for doing nothing - and I don't imagine we will be judged well.

    Where is our courage?  We send our men and women into battle, and allow them to put their lives on the line in the name of freedom and democracy, but we here at home, in the relative comfort of our homes and offices, in the storied and protected halls of government, cannot find the courage to do the hard work necessary to make sure that we don't send them to die for lies?

    How big do the lies have to be before we draw the line?  When will enough ever be enough if what transpired over the last decade wasn't enough?  If the ongoing weakening of our freedoms and rights is not enough?  If this is the standard we're setting for when or if we choose to hold people accountable, can we even claim that we have standards anymore?

    We don't need some mythical "someone" to pull us out of this; this isn't Metropolis where SuperMan is bound to show up any minute in his cape and tights.  There is no superhero who is going to save us from ourselves.  It's up to us to do it, but I don't have much hope that we - the regular little people who far outnumber our elected representatives but still have little power - will prevail, considering that we were the same people who said the war would divide us, would inflict wounds on the nation that would never heal, would make us less safe and less secure, would erode our freedoms.

    They didn't listen to us then, and they aren't listening now.

    Go figure.


    Parent

    This statement of yours, Anne, is (none / 0) (#87)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 04:29:08 PM EST
    the most powerful one that I have read. Honestly, it is one that sounds similar to an argument I made once...with tears in my eyes then and reading your words now. Your call to courage is noteworthy.

    For me personally, I would embrace the opportunity to a prosecutor at DOJ charged with any aspect of any investigation such as what you might hope for. My career was primarily in federal enforcement as an attorney. (Its in my blood.) YET, I have the time and I have the economic wherewithal...I am very fortunate. A lot of people--as you have understood so well--are not anywhere near as privileged. Because of my beginnings in the coal fields--a good & loving beginning,etc., don't get me wrong--I cannot look away from that aspect of "food on the table," the economic immediacy reality. That is why I do admire Obama's choice to turn full-force toward the economy because the costs of unleashing a full-scale probe (and, once started, that is what it would be) are simply too much. My dad would say to me from time to time "Christy, a man can talk philosophy when his stomach is full." (My dad, who learned so much from the CCCs in his teenage years, seems to me to grow wiser over the years.)
    Another thought: After Watergate, I wanted Nixon tried, convicted, & jailed...not pardoned, as he was. Did we learn some lessons from Watergate? I think we did (tho there may be amnesia occasionally.) We did not need his face in the news or in a courtroom for any more time than it was there. Yep, some will be revisionists; but, that will happen in any event.
    What I have been thinking about is the future. What if we move our way through the minetraps left by W; what if we as a country nudge the economy forward (okay, shelve Geithner); what if we regain some bearings as a government & some of the accompanying fear subsides...what if we can push for full governmental/societal discussion about the damages to individual freedom that define the domestic fallout from these long states of war!


    Parent

    Letting Nixon off the hook (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by caseyOR on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 04:45:17 PM EST
    led to Cheney's rise in power. And we all know how that turned out. Maybe if we had held Nixon accountable for his crimes, which I think pale in comparison to Bush/Cheney's, instead of allowing him to "rehabilitate" himself and his reputation, we wouldn't now be faced with the disaster that is the post-Bush world.

    Let's not forget that Cheney cut his conniving little teeth during  the Nixon administration. Rumsfeld, also, was a powerful member of Nixon's team. I don't think the lesson they took away from Nixon's pardon was "Crime doesn't pay."

    Parent

    Good point. (none / 0) (#92)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 05:55:57 PM EST
    Let me think on that one awhile.

    Parent
    Add on re: Cheney & Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#93)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 06:54:16 PM EST
    While it is only speculative to propose what might have happened had Nixon been tried, etc., it occurs to me that Cheney + Rumsfeld may well have progressed as they did in any event. The reason: Nixon was already thoroughly disgraced/humiliated/viewed as "a crook" by the populace when he left office; his own Haldemann, Ehrlichman, Colson, Dean, MacGruder, etc. served time in prison. And, at least Colson & Dean "rehabilitated" themselves. Cheney & Rumsfeld, meanwhile, were more tied to Ford. Thinking about it, I'm not sure how the outcome would have been different.

    Parent
    I guess I don't see any full-scale (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:34:38 PM EST
    focus on the economy, Christine; last I heard, and I think just in the last week or so, Obama declared that he was still working on/thinking about ideas for the economy.

    And then we hear through the usual sources - anonymous, of course - that the WH is trying to decide between coming up with a jobs bill that will appeal to Republicans - which means tax cuts and more tax cuts - or one that actually might help the economy, but that Republicans wouldn't vote for.

    Not that Republicans would actually vote for anything, mind you, but they would once again squeeze every last concession out of the Dems before voting against a bill, while Dems struggle to pass "something" so they can claim they're really going all out for the people.

    I think we've heard that tune before.

    There isn't going to be much but talk until after the election in November.  Well, other than the presentation of the Cat Food Commission's recommendations to a lame-duck Congress in December.  Can't wait for that.  Am sure it will follow on the heels of the corporate bonuses expected to come early this year to avoid the tax implications of paying them in early 2011.  The inevitable juxtaposition of benefit cuts against huge bonuses will be hard for a lot of people to take, but, hey, at least someone will be having a merry Christman, huh?

    Meanwhile, unemployment extensions will run out just after the election - convenient, that - and so I think the late fall and early winter are going to be mighty bleak for a lot of people.

    None of this has anything to do with holding Bush and Cheney accountable, but, shoot, if I can think on a multi-track, why can't the people who were elected to office do more than one thing at a time?  In my own job, I sometimes feel like those guys who used to appear on Ed Sullivan spinning more and more plates in the air without crashing them; shouldn't I expect at least that much effort from my representatives and my president?

    I don't know what the answer is,  - actually, I do, but those at the highest levels of power aren't interested, for reasons that I think have less to do with partisan divide and more to do with fearing for their own butts.  One thing I'm pretty sure of is that I think we are going to regret not setting some standards and holding people to them a lot more than we realize.

    Parent

    It is (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 02:23:55 AM EST
    a real crock to attribute "patriotism" to Bush's self-serving agenda regarding the war in Iraq - and Obama knows it. He is selling us a bunch of crap.

    Bush and Cheney deserve the fate that befell Mussolini- not some white-washing by the current representative of corporate America.

    Parent

    What is a crock is talking (none / 0) (#84)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 12:17:27 PM EST
    in a way that suggests we violently respond. C'mon. Settle down. We are all angry at Bush & Cheney. (And, some of us were even on the frontlines publicly opposing the war before it started.)  What makes almost as angry is when we talk in a way that almost sounds like the Palinesque "don't retreat reload" crap. Authoritarianism on the right and left are very similar.  And, that is why I am taking a decidedly unpopular position in this thread...because the flavor coming through is taking on a vengeance characteristic. (As Anne said above, there is a difference between justice and vengeance. Sometimes in this thread the flavor seems more like vengeance.)

    Parent
    We (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by lentinel on Thu Sep 02, 2010 at 05:39:42 AM EST
    are getting neither justice nor vengeance.

    All we are getting is politically expedient historical revisionism from Obama and Co. His little speech was an insult.

    We deserve better than that.
    The people who died and were maimed because of Bush and Cheney (and Obama) deserve better than that.
    The American people, bankrupted, homeless, deserve better than that.

    Parent

    It's political idiocy to give Bush the (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by observed on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 06:56:50 AM EST
    respect for the integrity of his beliefs, especially since we know that Bush lied through his teeth about EVERY reason for the war.
    I was disgusted by that snippet, which is the only bit I heard.
    Obama rolled over, once again.

    Has anyone learned yet that Obama's "greatest ever" speeches aren't?

    Parent

    I LEARNED SOMETHING ABOUT GRACE (none / 0) (#29)
    by maryhandymoore on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 11:48:32 PM EST
    @ChristineP:  You are very brave, I commend you.  You most assuredly are not talking to the Right.  He's a Socialist or a Communist, or even just a plain hater of white people!!  These two definitions have become so mutilated by the opposition and their parrots, that one has to go back every and awhile to reverify what the meanings of the words are.  

    It's a pity when those who are for the less fortunate, who always outnumber the others by so wide a margin, are despised as are the poor.  But as Grace would have it, God uses whomever he can to administer to the poor everywhere on the planet.  Unless we care like the these Christians' Jesus cares (who don't have his sentiment), this would be more a communist country.  

    The monied would only nurture and care for those whom they intended to cash in on.  For example, the arts and sciences, they would be fed well.  They would provide a service; but the poor multitudes, not so much.  

    Yet in these times, those who try to block the poor from access to the common good, are the ones who will one day be told to "depart from me, I never knew you."  

    Parent

    the corrosive effect (none / 0) (#54)
    by vicndabx on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:28:00 AM EST
    indeed.  Well said.

    Parent
    digby on THE SPEECH (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:25:03 PM EST
    The troops were awesome, America is awesome, we saved Iraq, we're saving Afghanistan, now everybody needs to turn the page on all those unpleasant differences we had over the wars and work together like awesome soldiers to fix the economy. Oh, and the troops are really awesome.

    Did that cover it?
    ...
    Oh, and I don't think I'll be turning the page any time soon on this one and this is why. Trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives wasted and ruined for nothing doesn't seem like something to be swept under the rug. But then I'm very big on putting out the trash and looking in the rear view mirror and reading the page before I turn it, so maybe that's just me. link
    bad link there, MO... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:35:21 PM EST
    here it is: http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/i-think-ill-stay-on-this-page-until.html

    Parent
    Thanks (3.67 / 3) (#9)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:37:38 PM EST
    Can always use a little help from my friends.

    BTW, nice to see you commenting more often.

    Parent

    It was such an auspicious speech (5.00 / 7) (#10)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:48:44 PM EST
    and moment, I was on facebook discussing some doggie fostering and doggie rescue issues.

    I would have liked to listen, but I was actually doing something, arranging to foster the dogs of children in my town whose parents are out of work.

    Yay, it's over, and everything is shiny now in Iraq. Except for the hundreds of thousands or millions of the Iraqis killed or maimed, displaced...

    Oh, the hell with it.

    Not to mention the infrastructure we (3.67 / 3) (#30)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 12:16:55 AM EST
    destroyed and have not managed to restore to reliable working order.

    Parent
    People on an Iraqi street, (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:03:09 PM EST
    before they were made so happy by Bush's liberation.

    There isn't a lot to say. Watch the video...

    Mistaken rating (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 05:14:59 AM EST
    I mistakenly voted a "one" for your comment.
    I meant to vote the highest rating - a five.
    I checked "one" thinking first class - or the "top" as "number one" is sometimes referred to.
    Sorry.


    Parent
    I figured that was the case (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:12:26 AM EST
    because your 1 ratings didn't jive with your comments here.

    Thanks for the corrections.

    Parent

    The Infomercial Presidency (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:09:46 PM EST
    If you bought this steaming crock about Iraq, we'll throw in Afghanistan because we think you're just that stupid!

    Log on for the full catalogue of the Obama Lifestyle Line of fine products!

    When President Barack Obama addresses the nation on Iraq Tuesday night, his Oval Office setting will be sporting a new look -- and one that pays homage to Martin Luther King Jr. and four previous presidents.

    While the president and his family were away on vacation in Martha's Vineyard, workers installed new wallpaper, a new rug, new sofas, lamps and a coffee table. Officials gave photographers a look hours before the speech was to be delivered at 8 p.m. EST.

    (Obama) "It's time to turn the page."

    And check out some hot deals on calculators, presentation easels and forecasting software.

    Looks like the drapes stayed (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:32:24 PM EST
    the same; wish he would have gotten rid of the arugula on the mantelpiece as a part of the makeover.  

    Parent
    It's a little heavy on (none / 0) (#20)
    by brodie on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:44:56 PM EST
    the tan, wheat, taupe coloring on the floor and walls and furniture, but sorta keeping with this president's non-bold tendencies I suppose.

    I do like the touch of adding the words from previous presidents and MLK woven into the rug (somewhere, I didn't see a photo of that).

    The sculpted head of MLK just doesn't look right.  Too mean looking.

    Parent

    The (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 02:17:20 AM EST
    day that they have a sculpted image of Malcolm X anywhere near the whitest house is the day I will believe that something has changed.

    King, who I loved, has been sanitized.
    No mention is made of his stance against the war in Vietnam.
    He is mentioned as a dreamer, not a revolutionary. Not as one who advocated and practiced civil disobedience. Huh uh. A dreamer.

    No wonder the hope-peddler feels OK about an image in the rug of MLK. Although, now that I think about it - and you are right about the rug - it is a god-awful place to put his likeness. Can you imagine walking on his face? Better to have put Lyndon or Ronnie on the floor.

    Parent

    But the words (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by itscookin on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:05:50 AM EST
    from MLK are a quote he made from someone else. MLK said so many wonderful words that were his own. Why choose something that isn't really his?

    Parent
    Yes, serviceable, (none / 0) (#48)
    by KeysDan on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 07:55:37 AM EST
    but a little bland.  Needs something bold--maybe a colorful pillow or two.  Also, include a photo, suitably sized for framing, of, say, Walther Reuther or John L.  Lewis.    I like Queen Victoria's desk, but given the times, would skip anything British.

    Parent
    Mistaken rating (none / 0) (#41)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 05:14:24 AM EST
    I mistakenly voted a "one" for your comment.
    I meant to vote the highest rating - a five.
    I checked "one" thinking first class - or the "top" as "number one" is sometimes referred to.
    Sorry.


    Parent
    How quickly can we get (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:35:39 PM EST
    the rest of our troops out of Iraq when the inevitable civil war erupts? Do we have a plan to hustle them out of the country or, when American troops are imprisoned and slaughtered  by warring Iraqis, as they most certainly will be, will we see that as an excuse to rush back in with guns ablazing?

    Depends on (none / 0) (#25)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:59:58 PM EST
    a few factors-- where are the aviation assets to protect the convoys, what are we willing to abandon, and how long does it take to make what we abandon useless to anyone else.

    Not scorched earth, and probably not blowing up buildings. But contingency plans for blowing, for instance, POL (petroleum, oil, and lubricant) stocks, communications equipment, ammunition, tracked combat vehicles, Heavy towed or tracked weapons, other vehicles... most probably in that order, but possibly differently, followed by nonsecure or daily-use electronics, heavy dual-use equipment-- gemerators, electronic phone exchanges, the like... then the other schedule items, clothing and certain other gear, down to shoes and toilet paper.

    the plan's already been written up, just waiting for implementation.

    But one doesn't enter 'a new age in Iraq' or an old one, for that matter, without an exit plan, or a bugout plan, worst case scenario. Humans come first, then everyting else that's reasonably moveable AND valuable enough to move. Everythinh else? destroy it in place.

    Parent

    Good to know. (none / 0) (#26)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 10:04:59 PM EST
    I want our people out of there and home safe. NOW!

    Parent
    For the moment, (none / 0) (#39)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 05:11:05 AM EST
    our people are neither out of there or safe.
    They are not home either.

    Parent
    Odds of being "Last to die for a mistake' (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by Ben Masel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 01:32:54 AM EST
    are now 1 in 50,000.

    I just watched the speech (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:34:24 AM EST
    And no wonder the major Iraqi leaders didn't show up at Camp Victory today.  My God, we liberated them.  Not one mention of how many Iraqis died being "liberated".  It was horrible.  And the rest of you had better pull yourselves up by your bootstraps now because the troops did.  No mention though that soldiers left active duty in droves in the middle of the Iraq situation, that the toll of deployments destroyed probably 70% of military marriages and almost all of those marriages involve children.  Nobody has children like military folks do :)  It must be that Sparta thing....we must make more War Fighters :)

    Whoa, and the fights in this house were astonishing in the middle of all this.  I wanted out, I didn't care if I had to eat dirt I didn't want to do this anymore.  And if he died over there I would lose my noble mind.  He stomped and hollered about a life work that has now gone completely wrong so everyone has no balls and just leaves.  The newbies will try to maintain the military alone while those who got them into this just abandon them?  Okay, so I sucked it up but I really don't appreciate the President telling me to "turn the page" on such violent lessons learned.  Such lessons die with you, they become a part of who you are forever.  Turn the page indeed :(  Everyone who suffered and died was thrown under the bus in that speech IMO.  

    Who gives a sh*t? (4.56 / 9) (#3)
    by scribe on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 07:41:55 PM EST
    It's not like his speechifying winds up having any relation to reality, other than to set up a cruel joke on those who actually believe he's working for the benefit of the great majority of people, as opposed to the oligarchs he's actually working for.

    Over a million Iraqis are dead (4.43 / 7) (#8)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:37:00 PM EST
    who shouldn't be.

    By the way...

    I thought... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Tony on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 07:28:19 PM EST
    it was pretty good, as far as these things go.  I basically agree with what Peter Daou says.

    I zoned (none / 0) (#2)
    by nycstray on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 07:33:35 PM EST
    my Dot was also vocalizing during his speech and I'm sure during his next speech, Shirley the bird will follow suit {sigh}

    news is reporting it was 'time to turn the page' according to speech . . .

    I'm with (none / 0) (#37)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 02:35:28 AM EST
    Dot and Shirley.

    Parent
    I liked Juan Cole's version much more... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 07:53:38 PM EST
    Fellow Americans, and Iraqis who are watching this speech, I have come here this evening not to declare a victory or to mourn a defeat on the battlefield, but to apologize from the bottom of my heart for a series of illegal actions and grossly incompetent policies pursued by the government of the United States of America, in defiance of domestic US law, international treaty obligations, and both American and Iraqi public opinion.

    [jump to second last paragraph]

    We cannot undo what has been done. We cannot pretend that the United States did not violate the United Nations charter and the Geneva Conventions. But we can make amends. We can seek redemption as a nation.

    read it all here...

    None of the comments look good (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:21:40 PM EST
    We had a school meeting tonight about our disabled son, and then came home and discussed all the implementation on the family side of things.  Winding down for bed and I guess I'll watch it tomorrow.  After reading some of the comments though, I don't really want to.  I feel like I need to simply to be informed, but it looks like an unpleasant task for tomorrow.

    Well, MT, I understand your need to be (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:27:44 PM EST
    informed, but make sure you drink a lot of coffee first, and do not have any liquid refreshments near the computer or in your mouth when you read/view the speech.

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#40)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 05:13:39 AM EST
    I mistakenly voted a "one" for your comment.
    I meant to vote the highest rating - a five.
    I checked "one" thinking first class - or the "top" as "number one" is sometimes referred to.

    Sorry.

    Parent

    doubt the meeting left any good vibes-- (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 09:47:10 PM EST
    but I hope it was a little helpful.  I know his physical outlook is definitely an unknown.  I do not envy you the years ahead.  Frankly, I have almost always thought my retarded daughter had the best of the disability 'choices,' since she has never known the extent of her problems (but I think she sometimes suspects her low status on the totem pole).  But if I had to choose for me, I think I would go with intact thinking apparatus, which I know Josh has.  (Did you ever read a book called something like 'My Left Foot"?  I thought it too close to the bone back then, but some people found it inspiring.

    Is one of your GSDs training him(her)self to become a helper/companion for Josh?  The training programs I see on tv look appealing.  But my state has no certification, so I took my little Vall and he's had on-the-job training with me for my particular needs.  (OTH, a 140-lb GSD was brought home as a teeny pup to become my daughter's companion.  He taught himself the job of staying with her-- or finding her, but he also belonged to a Girl Scout troop and appointed himself baby guardian when I was 'on duty.')  A dog offers much more than physical help--that I know.

    Parent

    It actually went fairly well (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 10:07:54 PM EST
    In Josh's future he will have a service dog.  One of my girls is just amazing...so intelligent and yet gentle with kids.  She is very athletic too.  When his books become more numerous and heavy he will need a service dog, next year I will attempt to find a suitable sire (probably Adelgard's Yancy, he is a conformation champ but he is off the charts wicked smart too, I can't believe the things that dog understands and does) and have a litter dedicated specifically to GSD service dog candidates.

    Parent
    Excellent, MT! (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Molly Pitcher on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 07:57:30 AM EST
    I imagine there could be few other people in the world as well equipped to breed service dogs!  If you have the time, think about training Josh's dog--or at least giving him a headstart--yourself.  Josh will have his own ideas about what he needs.
    Harriet

    Parent
    Technology suggestion (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Molly Pitcher on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 07:59:39 AM EST
    Recalling the mountain of books collected in middle school and up, maybe the dog ought to be a cart dog too.  Someone ought to suggest that school books for the disabled be put on an e-book (one of which communicates verbally, also.)  For the blind, there was an organization which created individual tapes for college students, etc.  I wonder if a 'sort-of' e-book could be created for duplicating text books, etc.  After all, we can 'home-scan' pages onto the computer; one of the ubiquitous communication tablets, etc. could be converted to display a hundred pages or so of maybe ten books (book stored on a dedicated computer so they could be re-installed on the reader as needed.) Has someone or some company ventured into this?
    Harriet

    Parent
    Just beginning to venture into this (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:23:15 AM EST
    brave new world of education and technology, the sky is the limit as far as I can tell.  By the time Joshua is in high school there will probably be every educational book available for a Kindle.  At this time, he will be getting a Dell Notebook with a recording program to record his teacher.  He can write and it is legible, he has compensated well considering that he has missing small muscles in his hands, but he fatigues when he needs to write a story or when he is doing heavy testing.  He will do his story writing via keyboard this year, and the recording capabilities should help with his slight hearing loss.  In spite of all this his teacher was laughing because he is in the middle of a book he is really into but they were studying spelling, he was doing a practice spelling test and in between words he was trying to read his book in his lap yesterday :) For testing he will have a scribe....he hates the idea of it though, it makes him too different from his classmates to have a scribe.  In the future there will likely be other testing options that crop up though.  His class has a clicker system that is new this year that the teacher uses while teaching.  They each have an assigned clicker, and she will ask questions as she teaches and the students click what they think it is the right answer.  When she takes a look at the answers she can immediately identify a child struggling to understand the concept she was teaching.

    He got a really snappy teacher this year too.  She is very educated about education, has been trying to break into college instruction but there is no demand for her around here at this time.  She loves to teach though and we will benefit from her while she is available to us.

    Parent

    Canine Companions for Independence (CCI) (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:42:11 AM EST
    is a great service dog organization. The dogs are bred for the right combination of smarts, work ethic, and calmness (since a great deal of their lives is lying still next to their master). My older dog was released from the program when he was a year and a half, due to his lack of work ethic. ;-) I was lucky enough to be working with his volunteer puppy raiser at the time, and got to adopt him. He is much happier being a pampered pet!

    Less than half the dogs make it all the way through the program. I'm just saying all of this because I hope raising the service dog yourself doesn't just add more stress to your life!

    Parent

    My dogs are my sanity hobby (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:55:36 AM EST
    And my best friend in the dog world is part of service dog training.  She is part of the early puppy training and it is done at a Federal Prison type facility....that part isn't a very pleasant fact though :(  She has a very high graduation rate where the pups move from basic to the intense training so I have lots of help.  And every litter we have had here from birth has gone through superdog stimulation to heavily wire their neural net from the day they were born.  It isn't the things that I can fix that get to me, it is the things I can't fix :)  I was born a workaholic though.

    My dogs are trained all the time, most people don't tend to think that showing a dog in conformation is about training but it is.  You train the dog to "grandstand" itself.  When I was kid though all my competing was in the obedience ring.  I should return to that too.  You can actually win money and big prizes at those events.  In the conformation ring you usually only get a ribbon :)  Because I grew up in the obedience ring every dog we starts obedience training from day one and it is very automatic now. I don't even have to think about it and I don't realize that our dogs are considered "trained" until I go to the vet with all of them at the same time and the vet tells me so.

    I scoop so much poop though, I need a ribbon for that.

    Parent

    Dunno (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 02:10:40 AM EST
    I'm glad we're pulling out, but that doesn't seem to be enough for some people here.

    I'd be happier if we were indeed "pulling out" - meaning that the troops would be coming home.

    I get the distinct sense, aside from the 50,000 remaining in harm's way and the world's largest "embassy", that troops are being shifted into other unsavory endeavors like Afghanistan.

    Parent

    yeah (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 11:27:26 AM EST
    I'm glad we're pulling out, but that doesn't seem to be enough for some people here.

    because it's all - you know - personal

    why can't "some people" just let Obama give his awesome speech & eat his waffle

    Parent

    Titanium ortho helpers are amazing (none / 0) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 07:34:46 AM EST
    Joshua had to have an MRI and it is still hard for me to believe that the two get along with each other as well as they do :)  I'm very glad that your healing is going so well that it looks like you will have your range of motion back, extremely glad.  Not being injured is the preferred, but when that isn't an option healing well is worth its weight in gold.

    Parent
    You didn't miss anything (none / 0) (#38)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 05:09:54 AM EST
    I missed it. How'd it go?

    As they say about "new" Broadway musicals, people already know the tunes going in.

    I am watching the ceremony (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 07:39:46 AM EST
    at Camp Victory of our combat troops leave taking.  Poor Joe Biden, he is just too flippant sometimes.  Iraqi leaders that were present looked so uncomfortable at times during his speech.  The Iraqi President and the Prime Minister were not there because they do not want to be associated with all the American bloodshed.  Can't say that I blame them.

    I wonder (none / 0) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 08:51:09 AM EST
    what anyone thought the point of bashing Bush last night?
    what exactly would that have accomplished?

    we are not talking about ancient history.  even the youngest of us remember what happened.

    I thought it was an interesting speech.  I would not have praised Bush but I dont have to run the country.

    I think there is a big difference between (5.00 / 5) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:00:27 AM EST
    reality and bashing.  According to Obama's speech The Iraq War was a war to liberate Iraq.  It was no such thing.  That is a lie.  That may seem to be where we are going now, but was the death of thousands and thousands of Iraqis worth Saddam's removal?  And Iraq's problems are still not over either.  They are set up for a civil war now.  Nobody had to bash Bush though to simply tell the truth.

    Parent
    It wasn't a matter of bashing Bush; (5.00 / 5) (#74)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 10:35:18 AM EST
    what it turned out to be though, was an affirmation of what Bush did, perpetuating the lie that we went into Iraq to free them from Saddam.  

    And considering that he has affirmed the Bush policies by continuing and extending many of them, what else to do but give a shout-out and an I've-got-your-back to Bush?

    I am so sick of being lied to, of being treated like all he and the rest of the politicians and the media have to do is point their little mind-erasers at me and I will forget what happened - what is still happening on so many fronts.

    And this, from the speech:

    Unfortunately, over the last decade, we have not done what is necessary to shore up the foundation of our own prosperity. We have spent over a trillion dollars at war, often financed by borrowing from overseas. This, in turn, has short-changed investments in our own people, and contributed to record deficits. For too long, we have put off tough decisions on everything from our manufacturing base to our energy policy to education reform. As a result, too many middle class families find themselves working harder for less, while our nation's long-term competitiveness is put at risk.

    is another insult to the intelligence.  Hey, Barack - it's 2010, you've been in office for going-on 20 months: you own some of this "for too long" crap you're trying to feed us.  

    And now, as we head into midterms, what's on the horizon for jobs?  More crap like this:

    The White House is struggling with whether to propose ideas that would appeal to Republicans, and thus get support on Capitol Hill--such as tax cuts--or whether to promote ideas that officials believe could have more economic impact but might hit political resistance, such as more aid for states and more infrastructure funding.

    Three guesses which approach will be taken - although you probably only need one guess, if recent history is any help.

    Sorry for the rant; this man is about as disconnected from reality as it is possible to be.


    Parent

    on the other hand (none / 0) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 10:45:21 AM EST
    lets consider for a moment what the coverage would have been like today if he had ignored the fact that they ARE free from Saddam and are at least positioned to get on the road to self determination and spent twenty minutes refighting the run up to the war and relisting all the lies and obfuscation of the previous administration thereby ignoring the one accomplishment of the troops in the entire debacle  

    Parent
    There are more than two choices (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 11:02:10 AM EST
    when it comes to talking about the war, and the end of combat operations, so it was never a case of either he had to say "A" or he had to say "B."

    Well, unless you consider that he couldn't decry the Bush effort without having the big fat question hanging out there about why, if Bush was so bad, Obama's taken up so many of his policies.

    A bit of a problem for him.

    Parent

    who (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:09:27 AM EST
    doesnt know the truth?
    the man is looking at a pretty full plate of gigantic problems.  bashing Bush last night would have helped to solve none of them.

    Parent
    I'm trying to be sympathetic (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:49:15 AM EST
    I challenged myself to be so but it isn't coming through for me.  I think the reason why is that this President downplays the horrible to the point that he is completely out of touch.  He got the HCR he wanted and he could not or would not see the economic reality before him.  He has employed every strategy to save Wall Street and is only impressed by savvy businessmen and couldn't hear anyone else.  When this President won't hear something or deal with a specific reality it only leads us to more doom.  He is horrible about dealing with realities he doesn't like, and then makes decisions leaving those realities out and situations tend to only worsen.

    I don't think he needed to bash Bush.  He didn't have to call him out to acknowledge certain realities, but he wants to completely ignore them and whenever Obama ignores something it always leads me to a very bad place later on.

    Parent

    hard to argue (none / 0) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:58:04 AM EST
    with that

    Parent
    "A war to liberate Iraq." (none / 0) (#77)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 11:17:40 AM EST
    Heard that portion on NPR and thought, whaaaa?  

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 11:24:00 AM EST
    Iraq is in desperate need of liberation from its "liberators"...

    Still waiting for the Iraqi referendum on their SOFA agreement...

    Still waiting for the Iraqis to form a government based on the March 7th election.....

    Parent

    The last part of it too (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:09:23 AM EST
    about how the rest of the country needs to be as committed now to difficulties as the troops were, everyone get ready to go through economic hell, hello....half the military left :)  They said, "Phuck this B.S.".  They had to pay $30,000 bonuses and even larger to get soldiers to reenlist at one point.  Is he going to give everyone a $30,000 bonus for not revoking their U.S. citizenship now and heading someplace better :)?

    It seemed horribly skewed, and also very disrepectful to those who died or had their family destroyed too.  Either the rest of you had better be willing to go through the same OR those things never really happened and it wasn't that bad.  I think that whole speech is FUBAR

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:12:01 AM EST
    Maddow agreed with you and went in to probably the greatest detail you will find broadcast on the subject.

    but others also talked about it.


    Parent

    I didn't watch any news on it (none / 0) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:17:46 AM EST
    Missed all of it

    Parent
    worth a (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:19:39 AM EST
    watch

    Parent
    Thanks for that (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:39:59 AM EST
    Just a terrific broadcast.  I don't think anyone could have said it better.

    Parent
    she really (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:41:19 AM EST
    just gets better and better.
    the people unable to appreciate her because of, well that which shall not be mentioned, are missing some of the best progressive reporting happening anywhere.


    Parent
    Rachel was always - always - great (none / 0) (#70)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:48:36 AM EST
    on the war - in fact, that's why I started listening to her on the radio, because she was one of the few in any media outlet telling the truth about what was going on in the run-up and once combat operations started.

    She's not my cup of tea on electoral/political matters so much, but she knows her war, for sure.

    Parent

    also (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:22:33 AM EST
    pretty funny right after the speech when it was her, Tweety and Olberman.

    she practically exploded.


    Parent

    Rape charges reissued (none / 0) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:36:46 AM EST
    against Wikileaks founder Julian Assange

    hmmmmm (none / 0) (#69)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 09:46:14 AM EST
    Sarah Palin's plans mark change in posture toward Iowa

    . . . Palin's recent overtures to Iowa reveal a change in posture that puts her in a position -- like other 2012 presidential prospects already laying campaign groundwork in Iowa -- to build goodwill and relationships with influential activists, state Republican officials said.
    Hitchens on Beckapalooza (none / 0) (#73)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 10:30:56 AM EST
    The numbers were impressive enough on their own, but the overall effect was large, vague, moist, and undirected: the Waterworld of white self-pity.

    In a rather curious and confused way, some white people are starting almost to think like a minority, even like a persecuted one. What does it take to believe that Christianity is an endangered religion in America or that the name of Jesus is insufficiently spoken or appreciated? . . . .  It's not unfair to say that such grievances are purely and simply imaginary, which in turn leads one to ask what the real ones can be. The clue, surely, is furnished by the remainder of the speeches, which deny racial feeling so monotonously and vehemently as to draw attention.
    Obama Speech Open Thread | 94 comments (94 topical)

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