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CHICAGO -- Chicago police arrested about 175 protesters early Sunday in an operation to clear the city's Grant Park of demonstrators camping out in protest against corporate greed, police said. A police department spokesman said the "Occupy Chicago" protesters were given several warnings to leave the park before officers moved in and began hauling them away. [...] The Chicago Tribune said protesters, who had formed a human chain and were seated on the ground when the police moved in, were cheering as they were hauled away in police paddy wagons and city buses. [snip] At one point, protesters began chanting "the whole world is watching," evoking a now famous cry that went up during a violent confrontation between protesters and police at Grant Park during the 1968 Democratic Convention.
A police department spokesman said the "Occupy Chicago" protesters were given several warnings to leave the park before officers moved in and began hauling them away. [...] The Chicago Tribune said protesters, who had formed a human chain and were seated on the ground when the police moved in, were cheering as they were hauled away in police paddy wagons and city buses. [snip] At one point, protesters began chanting "the whole world is watching," evoking a now famous cry that went up during a violent confrontation between protesters and police at Grant Park during the 1968 Democratic Convention.
Maybe the 1%'ers and the government are determined to show the world that they really are as dumb as they had to be to get the world into the mess it's in now...
(Btw, all 175 were released this morning, and the GA is back on today and back at the original site, more apropos than the Grant Park site for the purposes of this protest and message, I think.) Parent
Really folks. Tell me how these people represent the working folks of this country. Parent
BTW - Whatever else he did, Bush volunteered to be a TANG pilot, went through training, became a pilot and served. I won't mention getting elected Guv twice...
You see, some rich people's kids give back. Think JFK and FDR if you don't like Bush. Parent
And as far as I know, JFK nor FDR ever pretended they were working class stiffs like Bush did. Parent
There was no need for any special treatment. Parent
Now, Cheney, he's a bit older. So, he avoided Nam by sucking up as many exemptions as he could get his hands on. Parent
We're not talking Texas National Guard. We're talking Texas Air National Guard. Big difference.
And even there, there no slots for ground pounders. But they needed pilots.
UPDATE: An emailer sends this link to a 1999 interview with Bush that appeared in the Washington Post. The information about Bush volunteering to go to Vietnam is clearly stated there. If it was untrue, I feel quite sure someone would have skewered him about it by now. The interview is also interesting for its clear statement of Bush's intent to become a pilot: Why did you do the Guard instead of active duty? I was guaranteed a pilot slot. I found out - as I'm sure you've researched all this out - they were looking for pilots. I think there were five or six pilot slots available. I was the third slot in the Texas Guard. Had that not worked out no telling where I would have been. I would have ended up in the military somewhere. You meant to join the Guard when you took the pilot's qualifying test? Or the regular Air Force. I was just looking for options. I didn't have a strategy. I knew I was going in the military. I wasn't sure what branch I was going into. I took the test with an eye obviously on the Guard slot, but had that not worked out I wouldn't have gotten into pilot training.
Why did you do the Guard instead of active duty?
I was guaranteed a pilot slot. I found out - as I'm sure you've researched all this out - they were looking for pilots. I think there were five or six pilot slots available. I was the third slot in the Texas Guard. Had that not worked out no telling where I would have been. I would have ended up in the military somewhere. You meant to join the Guard when you took the pilot's qualifying test?
Or the regular Air Force. I was just looking for options. I didn't have a strategy. I knew I was going in the military. I wasn't sure what branch I was going into. I took the test with an eye obviously on the Guard slot, but had that not worked out I wouldn't have gotten into pilot training.
Link Parent
Just ask Bush.
Heh. Parent
Bush did what thousands of other guys wanted to do. He got a sweet spot in the National Guard because of his family connections. I don't hold that against him. Just about everyone I knew would have loved to get one of those slots. By the time Bush went in to the guard, we all knew Viet Nam was a slaughterhouse and nothing more. Grabbing that Guard slot may well have been the smartest move George W. Bush ever made.
Still, he is a bit of a dissembler, as is often the case with drunks, and time can soften the focus of memories. So, while I find it absurd to think that he volunteered to go to Viet Nam, I can believe that over time he convinced himself that he did. Parent
And the issue is not that the slots were precious. The issue is that there were no slots for ground pounders in TANG and/or TNG.
There were for people who would sign up for pilot training. BTW - You flunk out you go into the armed services as an enlisted person. Parent
But Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, said that records do not show a pilot shortage in the Guard squadron at the time. Hail, who reviewed the unit's personnel records for a special Guard museum display on Gov. Bush's service, said Bush's unit had 27 pilots at the time he began applying. While that number was two short of its authorized strength, the unit had two other pilots who were in training and another awaiting a transfer. There was no apparent need to fast-track applicants, he said. ...
The Texas Air Guard had about 900 slots for pilots, air and ground crew members, supervisors, technicians and support staff. Sgt. Donald Dean Barnhart, who still serves in the Guard, said that he kept a waiting list of about 150 applicants' names. He said it took up to a year and a half for one name to move to the top of the list. "Quite a few gentlemen were wanting to get in," he recalled. For Bush, there was no wait. He met with commander Staudt in his Houston office and made his application--all before his graduation in June...
"Beckwith, Bush's spokesman, painted a different picture. He said that the Guard needed pilots at the time and Bush was available. "A lot of people weren't qualified" or willing to fly, he said, so special commissions were offered to those willing to undergo the extra training required."
... But Shoemake, who also served as a chief of personnel in the Texas Guard from 1972 to 1980, remembers no pilot shortage. "We had so many people coming in who were super-qualified," he said...
Records from his [Bush's] military file show that in January 1968, after inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an Air Force recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed the test required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score on the pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers."
Link (to a newspaper, as opposed to Bush's memory or Althouse's blog LA Times - 7/4/99 Parent
On the other hand, I don't know anyone who didn't try to evade going to Vietnam -- but those I knew back then were all opposed to the War -- not just for themselves, but for the nation. What subjects one to criticism, however, is dissembling about the effort not to serve, or having a political stance in favor of a war, as long as others serve, but not you. That position, IMO, has been legitimized in a way, by virtue of our volunteer military.
Parent
And it wasn't risk free. The F102 was hard to fly and had an accident rate of 13.62 per 1000 hours vs newer fighters of around 4 per 1000 hours. It had the unofficial nickname of "Widow Maker."
The F102 and Air National Guard units were deployed to Vietnam where it was used for air defense as well as ground support.
These close air support missions were also quite dangerous since they required low-level flight over armed ground troops. A total of 15 F-102 fighters were lost in Vietnam. Three were shot down by anti-aircraft or small arms fire, one was lost in air-to-air combat with a MiG-21, four were destroyed on the ground during Viet Cong mortar attacks, and the remainder succumbed to accidents
Link
When Bush joined TANG he had no way of knowing if his unit would be deployed or not. We also know that he volunteered to go but was turned down because of lack of experience and the pending withdrawal of the F102.
I have written that Bush's service did not approach the risk taken by Kerry and I have also written that I honor Kerry's service. It was his actions after he returned home that I found disgusting.
But I also noted time and again that the many claims made against Bush were nonsense and easily understandable by those of us who have served.
For example we have the infamous claim that he refused to take a flight physical because he was on drugs. That the military was not testing for drugs at that time doesn't seem to stop the claimants.
A more likely reason is that the Vietnam war was winding down, there was a surplus of pilots and the F102 was being replaced. To become trained in the new aircraft he would have had to extend his service commitment. He chose not to extend so there was no reason to take the flight physical. He wouldn't be flying.
And while I am not aware of all a flight physical entailed in TANG, in my involvement it was called flight qualification. The physical was just a part of it followed by proving that they couldn't drown you in stimulated water crashes, proving you could hit a target with a worn out 38 pistol and other such wonderful things. In my opinion if you weren't going to fly then no sane person would go through it.
So if you want to jump on Bush for any number of things he did and did not do, I'll join you in some. His failure to use all his political force in 1993 to overcome the Demos' Barney Frank's opposition to his plan increase regulation of Fannie and Freddie is a fine example of not following through.
But TANG? No. Parent
Or just protecting your @ss ... Parent
Finally, the Kerrys, Moores and McAuliffes are casting a terrible slander on those who served in the Guard, then and now. My Guard career parallels Lt. Bush's, except that I stayed on for 33 years. As a guardsman, I even got to serve in two campaigns. In the Cold War, the air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others. Six of those with whom I served in those years never made their 30th birthdays because they died in crashes flying air-defense missions.
The most infamous champagne unit was the Texas Air National Guard 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, at Ellington Field in Houston. During the Vietnam War many well-connected sons landed in this posting, sometimes with the help of politicians such as Ben Barnes.[4] Lloyd Bentsen Jr., son of Lloyd Bentsen George W. Bush, son of George H. W. Bush John Connally III, son of John Connally Jr. the son of John Tower James R. Bath seven members of the Dallas Cowboys
Lloyd Bentsen Jr., son of Lloyd Bentsen George W. Bush, son of George H. W. Bush John Connally III, son of John Connally Jr. the son of John Tower James R. Bath seven members of the Dallas Cowboys
Lord knows what they would've done if they knew I was an Eagles fan ... probably would've had to go caddy-less. Parent
BTW - Can we assume that neither you or Jondee have been in the military?? Parent
BTW - Can we assume that neither you or Jondee have been in the military??
You've already made that assumption several times previously - along with many others.
Why ask now? Parent
Of course the anti-war/anti-military in the country often deliberately do so.
You seek to reframe the discussion. The issue is not what others did, the issue is what Bush did.
So try to focus on that.
Best I can tell, none of them volunteered for pilot training. Bush did. Let's look at some facts.
In November Bush began flight training .... soloing in March 1970 and graduating in June.....[1] He performed Guard duty as an F-102 pilot through April 1972, logging a total of 336 flight hours[2] and was promoted once during his service, to First Lieutenant.[3] In November 1970, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, commander of the 111th Fighter Squadron, recommended that Bush be promoted to First Lieutenant, calling him "a dynamic outstanding young officer" who stood out as "a top notch fighter interceptor pilot." He said that "Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries," and that "he is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing."[4]
In November 1970, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, commander of the 111th Fighter Squadron, recommended that Bush be promoted to First Lieutenant, calling him "a dynamic outstanding young officer" who stood out as "a top notch fighter interceptor pilot." He said that "Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries," and that "he is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing."[4]
Let's examine your claims:
.. received a direct appointment to 2nd Lt. right after basic with no qualifications?
Direct? Would that be instead of "indirect?" You obviously use the old tired tactic of making up charges and couching the in words that imply evil things without saying so and offering no proof.
He was "recommended" NOT RIGHT AFTER basic, but at least 5 months after. But don't let that get in your way. I mean, making things up is typical of the attacks on Bush and Palin.
And, based on what his Commanding Officer said, it appears that he deserved it. And, based on what he accomplished with his life, I would say the CO was right.
claimed he quit flying because the F-102 had been replaced, when it was being used by his unit until 1974?
... quit flying 22 months after completion of his training with 2 years remaining on his commitment?
You need to understand that a pilot doesn't just walk out on the flight line, hop in an aircraft and takeoff. If a new aircraft is to be phased in the flight and ground crews must be trained.
Now, that takes time and resources. A rational plan becomes: Let's train the people who will be around long enough for us to take advantage of the training we have given them.
To the individual: You want to fly the new plane? Give us two more years of service and we'll train you.
Don't want to extend? Okay, you will continue to fly the old plane.
Now, as the new aircraft are phased in and the old ones phased out, those who haven't been trained need to remain qualified in the old. But there is a problem. More pilots than aircraft. What do you do with the surplus.
You let the ones who want to volunteer to leave do just that. You let them leave rather than have then hanging around unhappy that they can't fly and complaining. In the civilian world it is known as "downsizing."
Now, do you understand why Bush decided to leave? Now, do you see why they let Bush leave??
... gave 3 different stories/explanations as to why he let his flight physical lapse, thus making him ineligible to fly? So eager to volunteer, yet too busy to get a physical?
Since you provide no links I must consider that as a claim in the Mapes/Rather category. I gave a lengthy explanation as to why I think he didn't bother in a previous comment in this thread.
As to the claim that this was a "champagne unit" I can only say that whatever any member did was more than what you and Jondee both did. Parent
1) Bush received a direct appointment to 2nd Lt. right after basic with no qualifications.
You've never heard of a "direct appointment", Jim? Wow .. hard to believe anyone with a military background wouldn't know about direct appointments, but I'll help you out. A "direct" appointment is one in which the candidate isn't required to go through OCS, like everyone else. Usually, they have a background that makes them very desirable for a position in which there is a severe shortage - doctors, etc.
Link - LA Times
For Bush, there was no wait. He met with commander Staudt in his Houston office and made his application--all before his graduation in June. His records list no ROTC stint or engineering or aviation skills, which were considered desirable. In his application, he cited work experience as summer jobs and part-time employment as a messenger, a ranch hand, an oil field "roustabout," a sporting goods salesman and a bookkeeper. ... Nevertheless, Staudt classified young Bush as prime officer material. ... He recommended Bush for a direct appointment--a special process that would allow the young recruit to become a second lieutenant right out of basic training without having to go through the rigors of officer candidate school. The process also cleared the way for a slot in pilot training school. ... Staudt declined to estimate how many men received such special appointments. But Charles C. Shoemake, an Air Force veteran who later joined the Texas Air National Guard, eventually retiring as a full colonel, said that direct appointments were rare and hard to get, and required extensive credentials. "I went from master sergeant to first lieutenant based on my three years in college and 15 years as a noncommissioned officer. Then I got considered for a direct appointment." Even then, he said, "I didn't know whether I was going to get into pilot training."" ... As for a direct commission for someone of Bush's limited qualifications, Hail said, "I've never heard of that. Generally they did that for doctors only, mostly because we needed extra flight surgeons."
His records list no ROTC stint or engineering or aviation skills, which were considered desirable. In his application, he cited work experience as summer jobs and part-time employment as a messenger, a ranch hand, an oil field "roustabout," a sporting goods salesman and a bookkeeper.
...
Nevertheless, Staudt classified young Bush as prime officer material.
He recommended Bush for a direct appointment--a special process that would allow the young recruit to become a second lieutenant right out of basic training without having to go through the rigors of officer candidate school. The process also cleared the way for a slot in pilot training school.
Staudt declined to estimate how many men received such special appointments.
But Charles C. Shoemake, an Air Force veteran who later joined the Texas Air National Guard, eventually retiring as a full colonel, said that direct appointments were rare and hard to get, and required extensive credentials. "I went from master sergeant to first lieutenant based on my three years in college and 15 years as a noncommissioned officer. Then I got considered for a direct appointment." Even then, he said, "I didn't know whether I was going to get into pilot training."" ...
As for a direct commission for someone of Bush's limited qualifications, Hail said, "I've never heard of that. Generally they did that for doctors only, mostly because we needed extra flight surgeons."
On the other hand, you could be right. Maybe Bush's summer jobs or his skills as a messenger or "roustabout" made him exceptionally desirable as officer material.
Heh.
2)
Bush claimed he quit flying because the F-102 had been replaced, when it was being used by his unit until 1974? Bush quit flying 22 months after completion of his training with 2 years remaining on his commitment?
Bush quit flying 22 months after completion of his training with 2 years remaining on his commitment?
Yep -
His unit continued to fly the F-102 until 1974 "If he had come back to Houston, I would have kept him flying the 102 until he got out" said retired Major General Bobby W. Hodges, "But I don't remember him coming back at all"'.
... "Lieutenant Bush, to be sure, had gone off flying status when he went to Alabama. But had he returned to his unit in November 1972, there would have been no barrier to him flying again, except passing a flight physical. Although the F-102 was being phased out, his unit's records show that Guard pilots logged thousands of hours in the F-102 in 1973." Boston Globe 5/23/00 - (you'll need a membership for their site)
I notice you believe Bush was prevented from flying due to the transition from the F-102, yet you cite no evidence.
Guess we can file that in your "Mapes/Rather category", huh?
3)
Bush gave 3 different stories/explanations as to why he let his flight physical lapse, thus making him ineligible to fly. So eager to volunteer, yet too busy to get a physical?
Also true:
Explanation 1 - Bush's campaign aides have said he did not take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston.
Strange, considering flight physicals are only administered by certified flight surgeons, like the ones on the base where Bush was living at the time.
Explanation 2 - Campaign officials told the London Times Bush did not technically need to take his flight physical. "As he was not flying, there was no reason for him to take the flight physical exam," according to campaign spokesman Don Bartlett. Boston Globe 5/23/00
Any suggestion that he had simply decided to "give up flying" prior to his suspension, with two years remaining on his commitment and nearly one million dollars (in real terms) invested in his training is not plausible. It is not up to an Air National Guard pilot to decide whether or not he "intends" to fly. If he had come back to Houston, I would have kept him flying the 102 until he got out" said retired Major General Bobby W. Hodges
If he had come back to Houston, I would have kept him flying the 102 until he got out" said retired Major General Bobby W. Hodges
As you may be aware Jim, the AFSC requires physicals to be taken regardless of flight status, and it's not up to the pilot.
Explanation 3 - From the same article - Bush campaign spokesman Dan Bartlett told the newspaper that Bush was aware back then that he would be suspended for missing his medical exam, but had no choice because he had applied for a transfer from Houston to Alabama and his paperwork hadn't caught up with him. "It was just a question of following the bureaucratic procedure of the time," Bartlett said. "He knew the suspension would have to take place."
The exam was required to be completed in the three months preceding his birthday, July 6, 1972. He had 3 months to get the physical, and yet he chose not to.
His personal doctor was busy, he didn't need to take the physical or it was just a bureaucratic snafu he couldn't control. Three different excuses - three piles of BS. All as believable as Bartlett's claim that Bush had reported to a Massachusetts Guard unit in order to fulfill his duty while attending Harvard Business School in 1974 - a claim he was later forced to retract.
As you like to say about that pinko Kerry, I honor (sort of) your service, but find your current mentality (or lack thereof) despicable. Parent
But you knew that.
Now, what do you have to say about the topic of this thread? Parent
BTW - The unemployment rate for college grads is reputed to be 4.1%. Do I assume that none of these demonstrators, outside of Trust Fund Baby, have a degree??? Parent
But you knew that, too.
And your last paragraph makes absolutely no sense. Even for you, it's nuts. Parent
Supposedly theses Occupy types are out of work college grads suffering under a heavy load of student loans.
But when you factor in the 4.1% unemployment rate for college grads, that is questionable.
Some say many of these people are paid.
But either way, how are they feeding themselves?
Are they all on welfare? Trust Fund Babies?? Unemployment?? Parent
But economic populism is very, very popular according to polling.
Thus, conservatives seem in a panic to discredit the 99%. Parent
You actually think that these people are "99%?"
You tend to forget that I'm a Social Liberal.
But it ain't liberal to take over other people's property. Waste public funds that could be expended protecting people from violent crime.
Do you pay attention to history??
Today in 1795 Marie Antoinette, wife of Louis XVI, is guillotined at the height of the French Revolution.
How'd that experiment in economic populism turn out? Parent
Lesson: Don't mess with the "little" people. Parent
Guess it's easy for some people to just "say" stuff. Parent
I dunno. I just assume you'll show up and make some off the wall comment no matter what the subject is.
Thanks, Shadow. Parent
Some say that supposedly you have no way of knowing the exact grievances, make-up and circumstances of the protestors because that would require you detaching yourself for awhile from that teletype machine of bumpersticker-dispatches from Planet Wingnut, and exerting some actual intellectual effort. Parent
For a more accurate picture of what it's like for young people in general - both college educated and not (I don't assume everyone at occupy wall street has a degree, not sure why you would) I give you this:
"The youth labor force--16- to 24-year-olds working or actively looking for work--grows sharply between April and July each year."
"The labor force participation rate for all youth--the proportion of the population 16 to 24 years old working or looking for work--was 59.5 percent in July, the lowest July rate on record."
Emphasis mine. Among people in that age group, "College graduates experienced the lowest unemployment rate at 8%" - which is still twice the national average for college grads. Parent
NEW YORK (AP) -- The Occupy Wall Street movement has close to $300,000, as well as storage space loaded with donated supplies in lower Manhattan. It stared down city officials to hang on to its makeshift headquarters, showed its muscle Saturday with a big Times Square demonstration and found legions of activists demonstrating in solidarity across the country and around the world. ... Wall Street protesters are intent on hanging on to the momentum they gained from Saturday's worldwide demonstrations, which drew hundreds of thousands of people, mostly in the U.S. and Europe. They're filling a cavernous space a block from Wall Street with donated goods to help sustain their nearly month-long occupation of a private park nearby. They've amassed mounds of blankets, pillows, sleeping bags, cans of food, medical and hygienic supplies -- even oddities like a box of knitting wool and 20 pairs of swimming goggles (to shield protesters from pepper-spray attacks). Supporters are shipping about 300 boxes a day, Strekal said. The space was donated by the United Federation of Teachers, which has offices in the building. Close to $300,000 in cash also has been donated, through the movement's website and by people who give money in person at the park, said Bill Dobbs, a press liaison for the movement. The movement has an account at Amalgamated Bank, which bills itself as "the only 100 percent union-owned bank in the United States." link
They've amassed mounds of blankets, pillows, sleeping bags, cans of food, medical and hygienic supplies -- even oddities like a box of knitting wool and 20 pairs of swimming goggles (to shield protesters from pepper-spray attacks). Supporters are shipping about 300 boxes a day, Strekal said.
The space was donated by the United Federation of Teachers, which has offices in the building.
Close to $300,000 in cash also has been donated, through the movement's website and by people who give money in person at the park, said Bill Dobbs, a press liaison for the movement. The movement has an account at Amalgamated Bank, which bills itself as "the only 100 percent union-owned bank in the United States." link
We lie, you decide based on mis-information. Parent
No way will I plug in my iPad and iPod to my computer and upgrade them. They have the music and videos just the way I like them, why tinker? Apple has always been the most non-intuitive operating system to me and it's just getting worse.
Why does anyone want to use the cloud where all your data is out there for someone to hack?
BTW,
GO CARDS
GO CARDS! Indeed. I have my St. Louis Cardinals t-shirt on even as I type. GO CARDS! Happy, happy, joy, joy! Parent
BTW, does that mean you will let the dogs root for them this time. ;o) Parent
10/19 Rangers vs Cardinals -8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/20 Rangers vs Cardinals -8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/22 Cardinals vs Rangers -8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/23 Cardinals vs Rangers -8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/24 Cardinals vs Rangers -8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/26 Rangers vs Cardinals -8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/27 Rangers vs Cardinals -8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets
Rangers vs Cardinals
-8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/20
-8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/22
Cardinals vs Rangers
-8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/23
-8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/24
-8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/26
-8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets 10/27
-8:05 PM (ET)-Tickets
But the Brewers, my old hometown team, really sucked.
Basically, both teams showed that they are not really ready for the World Series, so enjoy that roller-coaster ride we have been on in both St. Louis and Milwaukee; I am so glad to get off it!
Anyway, what we did learn about start times was to not trust them to the minute, or you might miss opening minutes, if it's the second game. If the first ended earlier than expected, ours started several minutes (as many as 10 in one case) earlier than scheduled.
Now, this being the Series, that will be less likely to happen than in playoffs, as we had to wait for Texas-Detroit games to end sometimes -- or didn't have to wait as long as expected.
However, some of the Series games may be on the same days as NFL games, I read. And if that happens, and a Series game in the evening is following an afternoon NFL game, well, just be ready for that 7:05 to actually be 6:58. . . . Parent
The Associated Press reports that the Obama Administration has abandoned plans to keep military troops in Iraq beyond the December 2011 deadline. The Administration could not secure immunity from prosecution for its troops operating in the country, so they've decided to bug out instead. A substantial amount of personnel will remain at the US Embassy and some satellite diplomatic outposts in Iraq (in Basra, Irbil and Kirkuk), perhaps up to 11,000 foreign service officials, with another 5,000 private military contractors guarding them. There will be around 150 military personnel attached to the Embassy for protection and facilitating sales of armaments, but that's standard practice around the world. This is the right move for the wrong reason. The troops are coming home only because Iraq's government would not give legal immunity to the remaining forces in the field. link
This is the right move for the wrong reason. The troops are coming home only because Iraq's government would not give legal immunity to the remaining forces in the field. link
WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon denied reports Saturday that the US military has given up on plans to keep several thousand troops in Iraq after a year-end deadline, saying talks with Baghdad were still underway. US and Iraq officials have been negotiating a possible American military training mission of about 4,000 troops after 2011, but a dispute over legal protections for the US forces has jeopardized the security agreement. The Associated Press, citing unnamed officials, reported that Washington had abandoned the plan for a contingent of several thousand troops and instead would have only a small team of 160 attached to the embassy in Baghdad. In a statement to reporters, Pentagon press secretary George Little denied the negotiations had collapsed, saying the Obama administration had not made any decisions on a future mission. "Suggestions that a final decision has been reached about our training relationship with the Iraqi government are wrong. Those discussions are ongoing," Little said.
US and Iraq officials have been negotiating a possible American military training mission of about 4,000 troops after 2011, but a dispute over legal protections for the US forces has jeopardized the security agreement.
The Associated Press, citing unnamed officials, reported that Washington had abandoned the plan for a contingent of several thousand troops and instead would have only a small team of 160 attached to the embassy in Baghdad.
In a statement to reporters, Pentagon press secretary George Little denied the negotiations had collapsed, saying the Obama administration had not made any decisions on a future mission.
"Suggestions that a final decision has been reached about our training relationship with the Iraqi government are wrong. Those discussions are ongoing," Little said.
Site rules prohibit me from responding appropriately to that information. Parent
It wasn't Obama who was overrulled at all - it was only the "unnamed officials" that the AP was citing, not Obama, who were overrulled.
Obama serves his MIC masters well. And truly. Parent
While there I saw a comment from Cream City. I miss Cream City's comments here. I really missed what I know would have been her astute comments on the happenings in Wisconsin.
If you still read here, CC, Hi! (big wave) Parent
Now for a different topic.
Would it be possible for you and ruffian to start cheering for the Rangers in the World Series? I'm not sure that Cubs fans cheering for the Brewers was a deciding factor but I want to cover all the bases now that the Cardinals have made it into the World Series. ;o0 Parent
....
It's enough to bring a tear to your eye
I heard there were clues for sale in aisle 6. ;o)
That's why I won't participate in it. Parent
I'm saying that I do not consider what is going on to be a "political process". I consider it to be a sideshow. An entertainment put on by the elite for the masses.
But it is you who is attempting to define this corporate dance as a "political process" for everyone. That is how you could express that by my unwillingness to participate in what I consider to be a charade, I am refusing to participate in a "political process". That is because you are defining this as a political process that everyone must accept as such.
Summing up: I choose not to participate in this - whatever it is - because I do not consider it to be a political process. I consider it to be some kind of process... but whatever it is, I don't identify with it and I do not choose to participate in it.
On the other hand, you do consider this to be a political process.
So you wish to participate. That is your right. Parent
Whatever.
The process that I am talking about is the one by which the powers that be determine who we get to choose between.
For example.. Cain's out. Perry's out. They're in. Trump's in. Then he's out. Nobody voted on these freaks to be in or out. The media puts them up, then it tears them down. Charming.
Obama is unopposed. Nobody voted for him either to have as a repeat candidate, as yet. He is unopposed.
What sickens me is the manner in which the "candidates" are chosen from which we are made to choose. Millions and millions of bucks are spent - and not by Mom and Pop - to decide the meager pickings from which we are exhorted to choose.
Have you noticed that they're all millionaires as well?
Look.
God Bless America.
Go to the Polls.
Pull the lever for the candidate of your choice.
Be Happy.
I just want no part of this. Parent
I think we could shoot for a flawed human being who might actually fight in support of ordinary people rather than tenaciously pursuing a Grand Bargain to cut domestic and safety net programs to offset never ending wars and additional tax cuts for corporations and the top brackets. We could shoot for someone who choses to support labor rather than Wall St. and the Chamber of Commerce. Offshoring jobs to sweat shops in N. Korea is not my idea of job creation. I could go on about the abuses to civil liberties etc.
Jesus of Nazareth and Prince Siddhartha Gautama are straw men of gigantic stature but IMO straw men none the less. Parent
That's your choice. That's what you live with. But you don't get any brownie points for being a system guy - that doesn't' make you better than or somehow superior to those who are rejecting it. And you don't get points for not being able to see how far to the right the Democratic Party has moved, and how Republican policies, presented by "adults" who want to "get something done" are killing this country.
What I see as the failure of the current system is in your demand that anyone not happy with, and determined not to continue to enable, the poor quality of the candidates, their poor performance as legislators and executives, and the corruption and co-optation of the process by the monied interests, must immediately, right now, without delay, I-say-jump-you-ask-how-high, offer a living, breathing alternative/plan - and if they can't, they really should just shut up. Or they should become part of the status quo by running for office within a system where money talks, and if you don't have it, you are deemed to have nothing to say, about anything.
That tactic - "tell me right now who the alternative is!" - is designed to shut people up. And for what? Because the status quo is working so well? Because you can't envision any other way to do it? Because it would be too hard? Because you are so deeply rooted and invested in the process we have that you feel threatened by change?
Why do you want to shut people up who want real change, and not the plugged nickel variety we keep getting? Why do you insist that the only way is your way, the way it's "always" been done? How many times do we have to see promising candidates be absorbed into and neutralized by the New Democratic Party - or even the old one - before we ask ourselves if maybe, just perhaps, quite possibly, that's not working for us? That it continues to work just fine for the power elites, but not for the people?
Maybe, Donald, it's time to stop shilling the status quo handbook, and just get out of the way. Parent
The NPA opposes both of America's sold-out, anti-Progressive major parties. We not only support a primary election challenge to Barack Obama in 2012, but will endorse an Independent or third-party candidate to oppose both corporatist marionettes in the general election, provided they publicly pledge to run on the Unified Progressive Platform and to govern based upon it when elected.
It will take a lot of work to overcome the fact that the majority of people still think they have no choice but to support America's sold-out, anti-Progressive major parties.
But there are less and less of them doing so everyday, so at least things are moving in the right direction. Parent