Tuesday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 11:41:40 AM EST
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Busy again. Open Thread.

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Tuesday Morning Open Thread | 100 comments (100 topical)

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Occupy Oakland Raided by Police (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by Dadler on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 12:23:15 PM EST

More thuggery from another local government with no respect for the U.S. Constitution. And this time they used rubber bullets, flash grenades and smoke bombs. (LINK) Because of sanitary concerns? Kiss my ace, city of Oakland, never gonna visit your fetid shores again, accept to raise hell when I can. Send the mayor an email, or call, and let the city know how disgusting these actions are.

And another brassturbation linky:

When OccupySF Occupied My Car (LINK).

I feel more marginalized, outraged (5.00 / 2) (#3)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 12:34:53 PM EST

and radicalized every day. If the governments wanted to look more like bullies in 2011, I don't know what they would do.

We are legion Jeff... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:22:06 PM EST

if you're up to it healthwise, get your arse down to an Occupy gathering...countless "too small to rate"'s who have been marginalized, who are outraged, and are in the process of getting radical.

It has restored a small semblance of hope on my end anyway.

Parent

We had one here in my town, (none / 0) (#7)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:24:33 PM EST

and i keep waiting to hear about another one. I'm still leaving first of the year, though, if no job comes through. A crappy job in Lower Elbonia beats sitting around here thinking too much.

Parent

Thinking too much... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:32:50 PM EST

is never good, I hear ya...pursue happiness at all costs.

Elbonia Dilbert? Does this mean Eastern Europe is gonna be your exile? Honestly I'd much rather radicalize with ya in Colombia hombre:)

Parent

Azana is looking pretty good, per (none / 0) (#9)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:26:16 PM EST

on the scene reports from observed.

Parent

my problem is (none / 0) (#11)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:32:10 PM EST

neither Russian nor Kazakh are in my language retinue... makes me hope that Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Ukraine (Romaninan/moldovan are the same, similar to Portuguese, which I used to speak, except post 1946, Moldova writes in Cyrillic) will have something going. I know one word in Ukrainian, 'freedom.' I don't know any Magyar, but it's a finno-ugrian language, or Ugrian under the new classifications... different, but not impossible, because over the years it has been simplified to present and past tenses... (still make a future tense or a subjunctive tense, but it's by adding will or would).

I'll let you know...

Parent

Heard a piece on public radio yesterdayr (none / 0) (#15)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:37:14 PM EST

re languages which have a future tense--such as Greek and English. A "study" shows people whose language has a future tense are not savers. Not sure if results stand up to peer review/retesting.

Parent

I'd love to (none / 0) (#21)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:43:30 PM EST

be in an academic setting to challenge that one right now. Spanish and the Central and South Americans provide AMPLE examples counterindicating that silliness. And Spanish certainly has a future tense!

Parent

Here's the link: (none / 0) (#28)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:55:36 PM EST

"The World"

Parent

Three things I noticed immediately (none / 0) (#32)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 02:06:16 PM EST

'Yale' 'Behavioral' and 'economist.'

Well, it's a cheap shot at Yale, admittedly, but macro level behavioral economics? I'm in the wrong field. All you have to do is use pithy House quotes, such as, "Everybody lies," and "everybody's an idiot."

I'll find this somewhere and read his study... but on the surface, it looks like cold fusion all over again.

I just love it when economists attempt to use their voodoo to predict behavior...

If it sounds like I am not a particular fan of the Dismal Science, I'm not. Between Austrian Economics, and then the Wall Street Crew we've seen with their protection rackets in DC and elsewhere, with derivatives and the like... oh, I'll just be quiet and tell the kids to get off of my yard.

Parent

I'm starting to think it's (none / 0) (#33)
by jondee on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 02:14:03 PM EST

a science the way Kabbalah and alchemy were once sciences. The way Freud wanted psychoanalysis to be considered a science.

Intellectual shock troops who provide baroque, pseudo-scientific rationales from on high for what the people they 'consult' already believed.

Parent

Buwhahahahahahaha (none / 0) (#84)
by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:43:34 AM EST

Well we know that U of Chicago economists are out of their damned minds, and we know that Harvard economists are out of their damned minds.....why would Yale economists be any damned different :)?

Speaking of wedding economics with sociology and writing big books about the author's genius, that T. Friedman puke was on Maher on Friday. God my hands itch to wring neck. He is so smug too, I think I would spit on him if I could, throw a shoe or two, show him my a$$....something. Anyhow, Mr. Friedman Unit was talking about how he hopes that Iraq does something with itself successful so all of those people didn't die for nothing.....and I once again totally lost it. Makes me clean a lot though.

Parent

: I am listening to Nora Ephron read her (5.00 / 1) (#93)
by oculus on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:47:34 AM EST

latest book, "I Remember Nothing." She has a wonderful riff re Mr. Friedman.

Parent
: lol Tracy.. (5.00 / 1) (#98)
by jondee on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:05:00 PM EST

that's the time when you have to say to yourself, as Jim Carey did in Ace Ventura "I am a being of light..earthly matters are of no importance to me.." :)
I know what you mean though, Friedman is smugness squared. Maybe marrying a hundred million, or whatever it was, does that to you. That, and pimping yourself out for 50k a pop speaking engagements (paid by people who aren't expecting anyone to seriously question the status quo.)

Parent

How the heck (none / 0) (#16)
by Zorba on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:38:21 PM EST

did they manage to write a Romance Language in Cyrillic?

Parent

Joe Stalin (none / 0) (#19)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:40:53 PM EST

said it would be done, and lo, it was done!

Parent

: Well, if Old Joe said so.... (none / 0) (#38)
by Zorba on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 02:56:06 PM EST

Still, must have been a bit of a challenge, given that many of the phonemes are different. I have some Romanian friends, and I've always thought that Romanian sounded sort of like Italian as spoken by someone with a Slavic accent.

Parent

h, Kdod, the reason I know Freedom in (none / 0) (#29)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:56:09 PM EST

Ukranian?

It's Swoboda.

Summer of '69...

Parent

: Wilpon-shanks... (none / 0) (#40)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:06:14 PM EST

can ruin a franchise, but he'll never take our Swoboda!!!

Parent

How to feel less marginalized (5.00 / 2) (#12)
by Dadler on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:32:10 PM EST

Give me some poker tournament tips when you feel up to it. Booked my Jacksonville trip and had to pay for it before these f'ers at ClubWPT have even gotten in touch with me. Lemme tell you, for a service that is legal and charges "members" a monthly fee, they don't do any better at customer service than FT did, in fact, all things considered, they're worse. It makes less than no sense. I won the biggest prize they give out and they can't even call me in a timely fashion, as if my travel costs don't go up by the day if I don't book. Been emailing and "live chatting" with service reps in, I'm guessing from their names, India or some other foreign outsourced outpost. What else is new?

Hope you're feeling alright, you're in my thoughts and atheist "prayers." ;-)

Parent

Steal blinds and antes 2x/hour (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:39:56 PM EST

from late position with a 10x or more bb bet.

Otherwise, I don't know your style, and if I suggest something other than 'foldy mcfoldfold...that A-10 off looks good until it doesn't, i dunno.

I'd say either be an arrogant a$$ at the table, tony G type, or a sphinx. I'd go with the first, because you can always shut up, but getting started with smack and irritation and distraction later is more difficult. It's a nasty road, but gets under folks' skin. Keep telling them how lucky they are, how they have no skillz, etc...

Playing with the big boys, etc.

Parent

Have you tried writing a David Mamet-esque (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:43:08 PM EST

play?

Parent

LOLOLOL! (5.00 / 1) (#22)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:44:35 PM EST

you made me smile and chuckle for the first time in a while, Oculus! a 100 if I could!

Parent

and I think everything I write (none / 0) (#24)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:45:53 PM EST

and say off of talk left is Mamet-esque... Too long in the company of soldiers does tend to deteriorate one's language.

Parent

: Rich and colorful. I immed. suspended (none / 0) (#30)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:57:28 PM EST

disbelief.

Parent

Thanks for the tips (none / 0) (#86)
by Dadler on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 01:06:40 PM EST

I'm taking all I can get, and you're much more experienced than me. I'm a natural talker, a complete multiple-personality when I have to be (the one "plus" of going from welfare and foodstamps in the ghetto at 5 to upper middle class and private school by 15, and every step in between, having had to pretend to be a lot of things to a lot of different people). As for A10os, not a problem with me, I tend to get too patient if anything.

Parent

Score some Adderall... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:45:13 PM EST

before the WPT starts mandatory drug-testing:)

Just kidding, but seriously...that sh*t makes me feel like I have the finely tuned card-sense of Stu Unger at the tables.

Parent

Good idea... (none / 0) (#25)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:46:44 PM EST

And Stuey was as obnoxious as they came.

Parent

: And notorious (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:58:29 PM EST

for abusing dealers, which is never cool. Like I always say when a jerk*ff abuses a dealer, "if they could control the cards they'd be playing!".
Stuey never had a bank account in his life, so naturally he is a big hero of mine.

Parent

Any progress re COBRA coverage? (none / 0) (#4)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:07:45 PM EST

Parent

: Not yet, but (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:25:45 PM EST

I saw Donald from Hawaii's post yesterday evening, so I'm pursuing that route.

Parent

Rand Corp. says... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 02:40:27 PM EST

crime rises in neighborhoods where a medical mj dispensary is shut down.

LA District Attorney on Line 2!!!!

Never mind, gotta retract that study.

I figured you'd post that article. (none / 0) (#39)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:01:23 PM EST

Parent

Here's another LAT article you may (none / 0) (#47)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:30:41 PM EST

enjoy: Sgt. allegedly burglarizes home; homeowner shoots him w/bear strength pepper spray

Parent

Way to go Homeowner! (none / 0) (#49)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:38:10 PM EST

Thats fighting pepper spray with...bear strength pepper spray!

Parent

: Here in the deep south, we (5.00 / 1) (#53)
by jeffinalabama on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 04:37:45 PM EST

are known for modifying our shotgun shells... rock salt, a condom full of water (I usually put that one with a magnum round), etc... if I pop a cap in your a$$ with rock salt, that's not just gonna put you down, but it will hurt for DAYS. The water condom will simply knock your a$$ to the ground. For quite a few minutes. And it only uses a tablespoon of water, so it's a green nonlethal shell, too.
Snark? Come in my window at 2 am and find out, lolol ;-P

Parent

I Have to say this for Jeff's benefit (none / 0) (#80)
by Amiss on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 01:08:39 AM EST

I live outside of Jax, they have more pain clinics than McDonalds, according to the local news tonight. I think that is just funny.

Parent

Blind dating at 53 (5.00 / 6) (#54)
by ruffian on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 05:01:51 PM EST

Preparations include facial hair removal. oy vey.

At what point do I disclose my TalkLeft habit?

You are unbelievably courageous. (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 05:07:51 PM EST

I'd say "never" re disclosure. When I mention what others have sd. on "my" blog, people respond, you have a blog?

Parent

HA (5.00 / 1) (#57)
by CST on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 05:13:31 PM EST

"At what point do I disclose my TalkLeft habit?"

I would also like to know the answer to this question.

I think it comes somewhere after the politics/religion conversation where you let them know you will never convert and your next date should be at an occupy rally. At that point "oh by the way, I have a blogging addiction" might have some context.

It's hard though, I've gotten through the occupy date and still haven't found a way to bring up TL.

Don't worry about the facial hair, some of us with eastern european ancesters had to start it a lot sooner than 53.... My poor sister had stiches on her chin when she was 13 and that thing has been sprouting like weeds ever since.

Parent

As my younger daughter stated when (5.00 / 1) (#61)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 05:52:07 PM EST

she hit 30, nobody told me I'd have hair on my chin.

Parent

: Yeah, that was a shocker!!!! (none / 0) (#73)
by ruffian on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 09:26:37 PM EST

Parent

Got around to politics near the end... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
by ruffian on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 09:31:52 PM EST

Him: Do people like Marco Rubio down here?
Me: I guess a lot of people do, but not me.

I would find it hard to maintain my charming facade if it went much beyond that...I guess it not going to work out....

Parent

: So, does he like Rubio? (5.00 / 1) (#77)
by caseyOR on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 10:35:19 PM EST

If he does not, there may be potential. OTOH, if he does like Rubio, well, not sure there's a future there for you. :-)
At least there wouldn't be for me. I know there are couples who have perfectly lovely relationships despite having very different political ideas. I would not be one of those people. YMMV.

Parent
: How did you feel about "down here."? (none / 0) (#79)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 11:12:47 PM EST

Parent

Some of us with (5.00 / 1) (#76)
by Zorba on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 09:35:11 PM EST

southern European ancestors also started way early, and it gets worse and worse over time. Although, I must say, as I get older, I find that the hair growth on my legs (which, trust me, used to be formidable, and kept a number of ladies' shaver manufacturers in business for many years) has gotten sparser. Unfortunately, much of it seems to have migrated to my chin and upper lip. :-(

Parent

: You totally (none / 0) (#81)
by sj on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 01:21:18 AM EST

made me laugh right out loud.

Parent

I probably should haver started a lot earlier (none / 0) (#74)
by ruffian on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 09:29:07 PM EST

but I missed the memo

Parent

Does anyone recognize the term (none / 0) (#56)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 05:09:39 PM EST

"blind date" in 2011?

Parent

I think it's called "speed dating" now (none / 0) (#67)
by Edger on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:12:40 PM EST

isn't it? On account of how fast you're outta there, or something? ;-)

I used to hide around Sadie Hawkins day back in high school too.

Parent

Ha! I'm so old school (none / 0) (#72)
by ruffian on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 09:23:52 PM EST

It was the classic definition though. Fixed up by mutual friends without a 'group date' first. Not even a photo.

Went OK. He lives out of town, which takes the pressure off. I am fine with seeing him again in January ;-) That's what I call speed dating.

Parent

: So, did you reveal your addiction to (5.00 / 1) (#78)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 11:11:37 PM EST

TL?

Parent

Spelling Alert: "Morining" s/b Morning (none / 0) (#1)
by Anne on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 12:14:09 PM EST

Hope you're not too busy to fix that!

Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (none / 0) (#5)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:09:33 PM EST

re Wilkes (the contractor convicted of bribing Randy "Duke" Cunningham) and the issue of whether trial court could/should grant a witness immunity where the prosecution refuses to do so: SF Chronical

Speaking of outrage and radicalization.. (none / 0) (#10)
by jondee on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:28:40 PM EST

I finally girded my loins and watched Inside Job last night.

In particular, the degree of self-serving intellectual dishonesty, outright dishonesty, and self-delusion on the part of the mercenary academician/consultants ensconced in positions of power in our most respected business and economics schools these days was-is staggering.

A lot of us have come to expect that kind of thing from the posturing floozies running for office that we're forced to choose between, but why (theoretically) venerable universities like Harvard see fit, for thirty pieces of silver, to employ people to teach who would set Plato, Aristotle, and Thomas Aquinas spinning in their graves at 2000 rpms is slightly demoralizing to say the least.

This won't help you calm down: (none / 0) (#17)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:39:07 PM EST

Jay Bybee

Parent

: it was bad enough that we (none / 0) (#26)
by jondee on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:48:13 PM EST

have investment banks that are too big to fail, now we have law firms that are too big to fail..
And the important thing remains not whether or not you're a creep, but whether or not you have friends in high places.

Parent

F*ckin' Harvard... (none / 0) (#34)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 02:14:47 PM EST

they could cease to charge tuition and fully fund the university with the interest on their massive endowment, instead of crippling their non-scholarship students with massive debt.

Parent

Harvard does (5.00 / 1) (#41)
by CST on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:07:23 PM EST

a decent job of providing financial aid above and beyond, because they can. If you are at Harvard and not receiving financial aid it's because you don't need it. And they've eliminated loans from the equation so it's all in grants.

If they want you they will get you there regardless of your ability to pay.

If you make less than $65,000 it's completely free and if you make up to $150,000 a year it is only 10% of your income. That makes it cheaper than most state schools for most people. Harvard has its problems, but crippling students with debt isn't one of them.

Parent

My 13 and 1/2 yr. old tutoree (none / 0) (#42)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:10:36 PM EST

has his sights set on Harvard. I was trying to explain the financial aid program to him. Thanks.

Parent

best of luck to him (none / 0) (#44)
by CST on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:16:06 PM EST

They have a lot of applicants.

I believe Yale has a similar system too.

Parent

Explain to him that Harvard (none / 0) (#59)
by gyrfalcon on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 05:46:17 PM EST

has a both sex-blind and finance-blind applications process. They don't even glance at any financial stuff until they've decided who to admit. Then they provide whatever financial assistance the prospective student needs.

As CST says, they don't do loans. And unlike many, many schools, nobody is turned away because they can't pay.

If anybody at Harvard has "crippling student loan debt," it's solely because their very well-to-do parents, ineligible for financial aid, for some reason decided to make the kid pay for his/her own education. I very much doubt there are very many of those.

Parent

Recently, a number of colleges, Harvard (5.00 / 1) (#64)
by caseyOR on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:09:35 PM EST

included, admitted that because of the hit their endowments have taken during the Great Recession, they are now more likely to give a spot to a student who does not require any financial aid rather than admit a student who needs assistance.

If they do accept a student who needs financial aid, the school provides it. They just admit fewer of those students now. So, the process these days is not so much blind as, maybe, slightly near-sighted.

Parent

Link? (none / 0) (#87)
by gyrfalcon on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:55:15 PM EST

I would like to see a link for that because it goes totally against the way Harvard has operated for at least 40 years.

And yes, their endowment did take a huge hit, I believe not just in the crash but not long prior to that, I have a vague memory of some of their investment managers being accused of gross incompetence for losing a lot of money.

Parent

agree (none / 0) (#90)
by CST on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:08:37 PM EST

on the link...

The poster may be referring to their treatment of legacies, and looking at where people live. So maybe they aren't looking at $$ specifically but you can still infer based on other data.

That being said, they recently expanded their financial aid program - citing the recession as one of the reasons (specifically raising the "free tuition" cap from 60,000 to 65,000). So it doesn't make sense to me for them to do that, but then exclude lower income students. If they are worried about endowment, they could have kept their earlier policy in place.

Finally, I agree with everything you've said about Harvard. Sure there are a lot of @ssholes who went there but they aren't the only people just the loudest. Cripes I mean they're currently employing Elizabeth Warren.

Parent

I cannot begin to express how (5.00 / 1) (#94)
by gyrfalcon on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 01:29:22 AM EST

wildly ambivalent I am about Harvard, which has been part of my family for almost my entire life.

But there are some things they do right, better than pretty much any other university on the planet, and admissions and financial aid is one of them.

Parent

Admissions dept....sense of humor (5.00 / 1) (#96)
by NYShooter on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:39:38 AM EST

Quick story:

My brother would've been accepted to any college in the world, but he applied to only two: M.I.T. & Harvard, with M.I.T. as his 1'st choice. I'll never forget the letter he received from Harvard shortly after he applied:

(paraphrasing, but pretty close)

Dear xxx applicant,
Thank you for your application, but we couldn't help but notice that the other university (didn't refer to it by name) you applied to was your first choice. Therefore, we will keep your application in abeyance until you receive notification from your 1'st choice, and should you still wish to consider Harvard, please notify us for further consideration.

They didn't write it, but you could feel the word, Harrumph! oozing off the page.

The story doesn't end there:

My brother attended M.I.T. for two years, but after his sophomore year, and after having attained the highest scholastic score at the University, he became bored with M.I.T's social scene, and decided to apply/transfer to Harvard to finish his undergraduate studies.

With my brother's record, Harvard, of course had to take him but, not forgetting the sleight two years earlier of being second (gasp!) choice, they informed him that, try as hard as they might, they simply couldn't find an upper class room available for him. Therefore, "we hope it wouldn't be too much of an inconvenience for you to live in a Freshman dorm for your Junior year."

lol

Parent

Many colleges have been doing that for years (none / 0) (#99)
by gyrfalcon on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:53:51 PM EST

It's not even close to being unique to Harvard. In fact, it was for a long time other colleges have been doing it to applicants who apply to Harvard. When they figured they'd get in to Harvard, they put them on the wait list because they didn't (harrumph) like the idea of being a "safety school."

And you're bothered, I guess, by the idea that current students should get housing preference at the non-freshman dorms over transfers. I don't really know what to say about that. There's almost always a housing crunch at urban colleges and many times there aren't enough spaces for even all the freshmen accepted and some whose families don't live too far away are told they have to live at home until a room opens up.

Parent

: I would question (none / 0) (#100)
by NYShooter on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 02:56:42 AM EST

some of your comments, but it's really not that important. However, it would be interesting to learn the basis of your statements as they don't quite comport with my experience.
For instance, Harvard receives about 35,000 applications yearly, and has only about 2000 openings. Many applicants toss in Harvard, as a fluke, their chances for admission are extremely slim.
But, I don't know where you got the silly notion that I'm "bothered" by something. Insofar as my brother went on to some great things, and attained great wealth in the process, I was just having a light-hearted stroll down memory lane.
No "bother".........may I suggest, lighten up.

Parent

Didn't O say he had SL debt? (none / 0) (#63)
by nycstray on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:08:01 PM EST

Parent

this policy is relatively new (5.00 / 1) (#69)
by CST on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:23:39 PM EST

not sure when exactly it started but it wasn't around 15 years ago and it certainly wasn't around when O went there.

Also I have no idea if it applies to grad school or not.

Parent

It's been around on an undergraduate level (none / 0) (#88)
by gyrfalcon on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:58:22 PM EST

for much, much longer than that.

The grad schools are semi-independent, so each one probably does it a bit differently and I have no clue what those policies are. I'm sure they're nowhere near as generous as undergrad, but Harvard as a whole has for a long time had a pretty strenuous commitment to not turning away good students on any level because of lack of ability to pay.

Parent

: The grad schools (5.00 / 1) (#92)
by Zorba on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:34:04 PM EST

are all different at Harvard. Both Mr. Zorba and Zorba Daughter got their Ph.D.'s from Harvard, and they both got paid to do so, with no tuition to pay themselves. Both had research fellowships. Their money came from the research grants of their advisers (and some from other grants that they applied for, and were granted). Mr. Z. also got some money from a teaching fellowship. Research fellowships and teaching fellowships are not uncommon in many, if not most, graduate schools. They were both in the sciences, though, where grant money is easier to come by (make that "was easier"- not as much so today) than in some departments. I don't know what graduate students in the Humanities, for example, do for money. OTOH, many universities do grant teaching fellowships to grad students, to have them help teach undergraduate courses, run the labs, run study groups, grade papers, and so on. Grad students are a whole he!! of a lot cheaper than faculty.

Parent
: I guess it depends (none / 0) (#91)
by CST on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:15:53 PM EST

on your definition of "it"
yes, they've been generous, but they included loans and the 10% income cap is relatively new as well.
That's not to say they didn't have good financial aid in the past, but it wasn't this good.
A quick google search shows that a lot of the changes I mentioned came from 2004 - 2008, and some of the expanded ones happening this year.
Link

Parent

He and Michele both had (none / 0) (#66)
by caseyOR on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:11:39 PM EST

loans from law school. I don't know if either had loans for undergraduate, he at Columbia and Michele at Princeton, but I doubt they did.

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After watching that interview in Inside Job (none / 0) (#89)
by jondee on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:03:36 PM EST

with the head of thier economics department, they're apparently slso Rainman-like-savant-who-never-thought-about-anything-outside-of-his-chosen-specialty blind, as well..

Being ethically, and philsophically 'challenged' is no reason to think you can't rise through the ranks at a place like Harvard, apparently.

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For reasons I can't fathom (none / 0) (#95)
by gyrfalcon on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 01:31:15 AM EST

the ec dept at Harvard has always had more than its share of right-wing loonies. To some extent, it's self-perpetuating because the current dept. faculty gets to choose new hires. If I were Harvard pres., I'd step in and assert my authority to make some changes, but Harvard presidents almost never are willing to contradict dept. decisions on these things.

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: The reason's seem to be fairly (none / 0) (#97)
by jondee on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:39:50 PM EST

straight forward: an economist who publicly favors a strict regulatory structure finds that the consultant-fee gravy train starts heading south without him or her..
A lot of these economists aren't making most of their money from their salaries.

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Points taken... (none / 0) (#45)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:18:19 PM EST

but they're sitting on 11 figures, what is up with that? Are they educators or banksters?

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bankers (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by CST on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:23:05 PM EST

although they aren't bad at educating people to make money who then in turn give it back to Harvard.

11 figures is rediculous but if you consider how long they've had to invest money it makes sense. They've been holding serious cash for a lot longer than most banks.

A big pet peeve for me about the whole thing is the fact that Universities and Hospitals are considered tax exempt. A lot of them pay a "voluntary" property tax every year just to make nice, but it's no where near what a regular business would be paying. It's long past time for them to stop being treated as a non-profit charity. They aren't.

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Educating... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:31:55 PM EST

I'm not sold on...but they are good at issuing pieces of paper that serve as license for making a ton o' money in the rackets, aka a diploma.

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That's because the many (none / 0) (#60)
by gyrfalcon on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 05:48:50 PM EST

grads beavering away in low-profile professions aren't on your radar screen. The obnoxious and entitled ones make themselves all too visible, but you're tarring an enormous number of people who don't deserve it because of them.

Just sayin'.

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: Not talkin' about all the students... (none / 0) (#82)
by kdog on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:47:19 AM EST

and grads...talkin' about an institution of learning sitting on 30 billion dollars with a sticker tuition price of 52k.
Maybe it's me but there is something very unsavory about it...behind every great fortune is a crime.

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My niece (none / 0) (#71)
by CoralGables on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 09:11:10 PM EST

attended Harvard for free. I have no unkind words to say about the Crimson.

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more welfare for Harvard (none / 0) (#35)
by jondee on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 02:32:12 PM EST

welfare mamas and papas. You know they just spend it on Alpine mineral water.

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: Ivy League... (none / 0) (#36)
by kdog on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 02:34:21 PM EST

more like poison ivy league..."educating" the grifters of tomorrow, private and public sector.

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Intro to Economics (none / 0) (#43)
by CST on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:12:44 PM EST

was an eye-opening experience.

Not because I learned a lot about economics, that class was a bit of a joke. But because I learned a lot about the politics of my professor and I saw how quickly all the wannabe business majors in the class lapped it up.

The most ironic thing about it is that all the engineers in the room would routinely get A's, maybe a B on a bad day. And the business majors in the room would cheat their way to a C. Yes, I'm generalizing a bit. But not much. And these are some of the "best and brightest" on wall street who are now taking home outrageous salaries.

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I have (none / 0) (#50)
by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 03:55:37 PM EST

a business degree and I know why businesses are in such bad shape. There were so many people in my class that we such slackers it's not funny. At least where I went they TRIED to teach ethics and the majority did end up okay but the ones that made it big are probably the worst ones sad to say.

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Funny, that was the impression I had in college (none / 0) (#51)
by ruffian on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 04:05:46 PM EST

even 30 years ago when i was there. the Business majors were the biggest partiers, etc, class skippers, etc. At the time I didn't even have a clear idea of what 'business' was and it seemed appropriate to me that they were the extrovert types training for a life of deal making at 3-martini lunches like I saw on TV.

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This is going tooooo far: (none / 0) (#52)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 04:24:23 PM EST

Are law schools and bar exams necessary?

The author is an economist and at Brookings Institute.

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Abe Lincoln did not go to law school (5.00 / 1) (#58)
by KeysDan on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 05:41:35 PM EST

but the state of Illinois was not even then without its certification procedures for entry to practice. And, that was a while back and several things have happened since that time. However, Clifford Winston seems to cling to that good old idea of self-study for entry to the profession and, of course, no regulations. HIs discussion is timely what with Halloween and all, since he is channeling the ghost of Milton Friedman. He does, inadvertently, make a good case for licensure for economists and certification for Fellows at Brookings.

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Up until recent years (can't recall (none / 0) (#62)
by caseyOR on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:03:50 PM EST

exact date) Oregon allowed people to take the bar exam without attending law school. Applicants "read the law" with a practicing attorney and, when ready, took the bar exam. I believe some states, Washington comes to mind, still allow this practice.

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CA doesn't require law school: (none / 0) (#65)
by oculus on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:10:20 PM EST

link

At $50,000/year and up at present, maybe it's worth a try.

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: I think the idea has been (none / 0) (#70)
by KeysDan on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 07:07:37 PM EST

given a try, and as noted here, there are exceptions to the general track for admittance to the profession--"reading for the bar" in a few states, one or two years of law school and then an "apprenticeship" or reading, and, in Wisconsin, for example, exception from the bar examination if a graduate of one of the two law schools in the state (Marquette and U of Wisconsin).
However, Clifford Winston argues for the elimination of what he terms and, in the process, contaminates his position, barriers--formal education and the legal licensing system. Winston sees his idea in economic terms--the credentialing system is to protect lawyers from competition with non-lawyers and firms not lawyer owned (which is a different kettle of fish).
He seems to dismiss the value of structured and quality education, professional or peer determinations for standards and other eligibility requirements to practice. And, with definitiveness, Winston rejects the notion of the credentialing systems serving assurances of quality or the public good.
It is well to be leery, these days, of economists cranking up old and regressive ideas in the name of economies. We see this in other professions as well--and, should we, once again, desire to try this in medicine to achieve "savings" and promote competition among the "purchasers of health care" --beware. A comparison by Mr. Magoo of pre-Abraham Flexner medicine and the present day should end the discussion.

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Thanks for pointing this one out (none / 0) (#68)
by christinep on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:13:29 PM EST

'Must admit that when I saw it earlier today, the question posed at NYT raised these questions for me: Should doctors be required to pass medical exams? Should engineers who build bridges have to pass an engineering certification process?

Obviously, professions--lawyers, doctors, engineers & others--have discovered how to control access. And, obviously, a part of it has to do with admission to the club or fraternity. Yet, goofball me likes to see some sort of certification in instances where I turn part of myself over to someone else. Although A. Lincoln (& so many others of more than able ability in the 19th century) practiced law after being self-taught, the where-we-are-today does raise questions about knowledge & competence in a legal reality grown much more complex.

Yet, the question is a good one. And, to the extent that open discussion reins in the apparent elitist aspects, all the better. But, I'll tell ya...knowing about the background of an attorney & any professional can make a difference. Peer processes, for now, are a significant aide. (In another professional area--namely, dentisty--the check came in handy. Because, by now, a number of the old fillings & crowns needed work and/or new crowns etc., it really was nice to trust the work of my new dentist. The reality was worth it. A pox on the old non-checked dentist; kudos to my favorite new one!)

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More jobs news (none / 0) (#14)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:35:22 PM EST

Obama gets results!

so we'll just deregulate (5.00 / 3) (#27)
by jondee on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:53:59 PM EST

everything further and, in the words of Jim Morrison, just let the whole sh*thouse burn down.

And even then conservatives will blame the disaster on some small vestige of "Big Government" that impeded the all-healing, wonder-working Invisible Hand.

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: The invisible hand is going to slapped (5.00 / 1) (#85)
by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:45:39 AM EST

the Jesus right out of them soon. I think I'm okay with that :)

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: deregulate everything? (none / 0) (#83)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:53:33 AM EST

.
Wow! Nothing an all or nothing approach. In any case, this does not appear to be regulation, but the consequences bad mouthing and thinly veiled threats of increased taxes on the purchasers of those jets.
.

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Tuesday Morning Open Thread | 100 comments (100 topical)

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