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Emma Sullivan Is Lucky She Is Not Ruth Marcus' Daughter

Via Glenn Greenwald, Ruth Marcus reveals again something is not right with her:

Emma Sullivan, you’re lucky you’re not my daughter. . . . If you were my daughter, you’d be writing that letter apologizing to Kansas Gov. Sam Brownback for the smart­alecky, potty-mouthed tweet you wrote after meeting with him on a school field trip. . . .

Marcus states that "I may sound alarmingly crotchety here, but something is upside down in the modern world, which has transformed Sullivan into an unlikely Internet celebrity and heroine of the liberal blogosphere[.]" You don't sound crotchety Marcus, you sound insane. Sullivan was too mean in her tweet about a politician? And you claim to cover these people?

Something is upside down in this world when a so called journalist can get this up in arms over a tweet that is disrespectful to a pol while being just fine with the past decade in Washington, DC.

Yes indeed, Emma Sullivan is VERY lucky Ruth Marcus is not her mother. She has a chance of having a moral compass and sense of what matters in this world because of that.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    I find Sam Brownback's policy views (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 08:41:16 AM EST
    to be insulting and dangerous. Will Ruth Marcus be writing about that?

    No she will not (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:49:57 AM EST
    It is, apparently, rude to speak the truth.

    Parent
    Ruth Has A Glorious Future! (none / 0) (#80)
    by Cugel on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:07:26 PM EST
    If the New York Times ever folds I hear there's always an opening for her on the Volkischer Beobachter.

    Parent
    "You suck" is potty mouth? (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:21:09 AM EST
    Ruth Marcus is lucky she isn't my mother, she'd have had a heart attack ages ago.  I would have been the death of her.

    Imagine that, "suck" is a potty mouth word.

    I (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by CST on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:29:10 AM EST
    learned all the most creative swears from my mother.  She would let them slip occasionally in a moment of pure frustration and under severe duress and harrassment from 3 kids.  She always had the best ones.  And I'm sure she learned them from her father.

    If my family is any indication, the political discourse in this country has been rough for at least three generations now.

    Parent

    Last week while driving home (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:34:53 AM EST
    there is spot in the road where it merges and goes from two lane to one lane.  This crazy person going about 90 mph (45 over the limit) almost sideswipes us trying to be one car ahead.  Scared me to death, as I'm swerving away from the 90 mph shadow of death that showed up on my right, I just cut loose.  Josh says to me, "We don't really need to go Dexter's sister over this mom."  I don't know if you watch Dexter but his sister gets pretty creative.

    Parent
    I heart Josh. Great call. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:47:11 AM EST
    There are some Debra Morgan quote sites on google that my work netowork is blocking...she is the best!

    She talks out loud like I talk in my head.

    Parent

    I'm very cursed (none / 0) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:02:33 PM EST
    My father used S.O.B. as a verb, adjective, and noun.  I do that but I changed words because S.O.B. seemed offensive to me as a woman I guess.  I use the "F" word and I don't even know it when it happens.  Sometimes when something has really riled me I see my future son-in-law giggling out of the corner of my eye and then I realize that I went there.  It really cracks him up.  His mother never swears..NEVER.

    Parent
    My father attached SOB (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by cal1942 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 12:43:16 AM EST
    to Republicans as in Republicansonsofbitches.  When I was 6 I thought elections were between Democrats and Republicansonsof ...

    Parent
    Neither did mine. I think that's why (none / 0) (#121)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 05:26:51 PM EST
    I do now.

    Parent
    My mother either (none / 0) (#125)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:17:35 PM EST
    Nor did she smoke or drink or carry on.  It was most provoking having a Mom with no vices.  She was pretty self-righteous because of it, too.  At least until later in life when she relaxed a little and kind of gave up on judging others.

    But I'm pretty sure she is why I have my major vices. :)

    Parent

    Hmmm. My dad encouraged free speech (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:28:05 PM EST
    ...but, he always said that you have to be prepared to have the guts to stand up for the consequences should things turn out differently than originally expected. He was never judgemental; but, he was big on owning up to what you did.

    Parent
    That sounds wonderful (none / 0) (#128)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 07:04:07 PM EST
    I have to say, my parents weren't big on free speech.  They much preferred quiet.  Can't blame them from my present perspective.  Five kids generate a LOT of noise.  Moreover, they were enlightened in many ways, but they were still traditional Spanish when it came to child-rearing.  

    Parent
    That was my dad's take too (none / 0) (#145)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 08:13:33 AM EST
    He thought swearing had its place, even its need.  When you stub your toe in the dark at 4 a.m. it is time to cuss.  But I had to take responsibility for the time and the place and the usage and dealing with my grandmother and the cringers and the Christians.


    Parent
    In my view, the expression (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:55:10 PM EST
    "potty mouth" sucks.   "Potty mouth " does not conjure up the most genteel imagery.

    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#152)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Dec 03, 2011 at 07:37:38 PM EST
    but only for those of us who remember where the expression first came from.  It is a reference to oral sex.  When my kids where in grade school in the 80s I had to explain that to them because I was really uncomfortable with them using the expression.  Now they are adults and of course,  I don't care.  I use it too.  But hearing it out my 7 year old's mouth back when it was still a somewhat newly minted insult....well.... it sucked.

    Parent
    More free adversting for ... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:27:24 AM EST
    Twitter.  Gotta ratchet things up for that IPO!

    Amazing how many people feed this beast.  And most of them won't get in on the initial offering.

    Absolutely right! (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Mitch Guthman on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:32:27 AM EST
    Emma Sullivan really is unbelievably lucky not being Ruth Marcus' daughter.  The two girls who apparently are her daughters have my deepest sympathies.

    The kid sent a message (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:50:49 PM EST
    to her 60 Twitter followers.  Presumably she didn't have her press officer release the message to the media upon posting the momentous tweet.  She seems to be dealing with the publicity pretty well.  Kudos to her for not apologizing and for the sentiment.

    I am the Kinderleviathan! (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Addison on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:58:12 PM EST
    I always find it strange when an author decides to write publicly about the hypothetical kidnapping of another person's child so that they can live out, on paper, their very personal disciplinary fantasies. You would think they'd keep that sort of thing to themselves.

    tempest, meet teabag n/t (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:58:41 PM EST


    In support of Emma (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by CoralGables on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:25:20 PM EST
    Brownback blows

    This all boils down (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by cal1942 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 01:05:22 AM EST
    to the fact that the Governor of a state is upset over a tweet written by an 18 year old.

    Doesn't matter what she tweeted.  

    The worrisome thing is that a state Governor is upset over nothing and institutes an attack on a child.

    Disgusting.

    The 99% (none / 0) (#2)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 08:45:53 AM EST
    Link

    Emma Sullivan is one of the very few things that is right with Kansas.

    Ruth Marcus is very lucky (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 08:50:00 AM EST
    that Emma Sullivan is not her daughter.

    Her insurance claim for treatment for a nervous breakdown and stroke would probably be denied.

    Emma Sullivan (none / 0) (#4)
    by jbindc on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:06:50 AM EST
    Needs to learn manners, at the very least, the art of making a rational argument. Think what you want, even tweet it, but it is a shame that we have lost the art of decorum and good manners.

    And why this is a story is beyond me.  She is a child with childish tendencies and should be treated as such.

    Shirley.... (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:28:34 AM EST
    you can't be f*ckin' serious.

    The Emperor wears no clothes, and it is not rude or lacking in decorum to state the obvious.  The sky is blue and Brownback sucks...next question.

    If anybody has lost a sense of decorum and manners it is our elected officials and the 1% they represent.  Sh*ttin' on the people is not acceptable, even if you say thank you after wiping.

    Parent

    Agreed, (none / 0) (#26)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:41:06 AM EST
    and the use of "sucks" is not "potty-mouth", but rather, part of the cultural lexicon.  Now, we can discuss the lexicon, perhaps, with Rummy who prefers "golly gee whiz" while its bombs away, but that is a story for another day.  For me, its now, twenty-threee skidoo.

    Parent
    I love slang and colorful language... (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:07:45 AM EST
    so thanks for the education on 23 skidoo...a new one for me.

    Even has possible NYC origins...from Wiki.

    Perhaps the most widely known story of the origin of the expression concerns the area around the triangular-shaped Flatiron Building at Madison Square in New York City. The building is located on 23rd Street at the intersection of Fifth Avenue and Broadway, and due to the shape of the building winds swirl around it. During the 1920s, groups of men would allegedly gather to watch women walking by have their skirts blown up, revealing legs, which were seldom seen publicly at that time. Local constables, when sometimes telling such groups of men to leave the area, were said to be "giving them the 23 Skidoo".

    Ruth Marcus would be appalled...she's a regular Mrs. Grundy.

    Parent

    Because "Please sir, (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:32:01 AM EST
    may I have another?" would have been so much more...effective?

    Yeah, okay.  Because Sam Brownback's policies and agenda, delivered and presented oh-so-politely, have made - or would make - the effects/consequences so much easier to bear for the people they have been and would be imposed on, right?  His rhetoric is polite, but his policies are anything but, and it's the policies that matter.

    Emma Sullivan - and Occupy - are bringing attention to what the power elite have wrought by bringing to their rhetoric the same ugliness that the powers that be have brought to the millions of people affected by those policies.

    Have you not been paying any attention to what the polite, reasonable, cooperative  and mature politicians and savvy businessmen have been engineering for the rest of us?

    Sometimes, you just have to throw open the window and yell for all to hear, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore."

    And sometimes, you just have to tweet, "You suck."


    Parent

    That the kid made up s*it (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:59:13 AM EST
    in her message and now is being applauded for it is weird, isn't it?  Of course, the governor's staff and the school principal were incredibly wrong to confuse instruction in the Constitution with instruction in the courtesies of life -- and the consequences.

    But as a former teacher, I do hope that someone is making it clear to the kid to not make up s*it in a term paper, unless it's for a creative writing course in fiction.

    Parent

    Talk about missing the point!!!!!!! (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by observed on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:17:46 AM EST
    This is not a story because she made an offensive tweet! It's a story because the governor and school attempted to trample Emma's freedoms over a completely trivial remark.


    Parent
    Josh's very Southern elementary school (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:26:40 AM EST
    allows 6th graders to say "crap".  I wonder what would happen though if he tweeted that Jeff Sessions is craptacular?

    Parent
    Exactly. (none / 0) (#28)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:46:40 AM EST
    But then, is it news that there's something the matter with a Kansas governor's staff and in a Kansas school?

    Parent
    Not breaking news... (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:47:54 PM EST
    just a breaking update that the office of the governor of Kansas doesn't simply s*ck, it s*cks giant donkey d*ck.

    They monitor twitter for talk about the governor...lame.  They contact the poor girl's principal to chill her free speech by scolding and demanding an apology...really f8ckin' lame.  And the bootlicker principal complies! Blue blazes!

    The most mature person in the room is Emma.

    Parent

    We watched something last night (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:24:22 AM EST
    on Geeks Ruling the World.  Did you know that 29% of callers calling tech support attempting to install something new cuss at the tech person?

    Parent
    Our resident Ruth Marcus (4.50 / 6) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:16:57 AM EST
    Because you'd be so proud (3.50 / 2) (#6)
    by jbindc on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:22:25 AM EST
    If your daughter said that to some politician after being invited to meet them.

    No wonder our level of political discourse has sunk so low.

    Parenting by those who should be on "Super Nanny".

    Parent

    If my kid... (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by Dadler on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:37:17 AM EST
    ...got invited, say, to the White House and decided to use the moment to scream bloody murder about drone killings, torture, bankster crimes, etc., in an impolite way to the President's face, I would be proud beyond measure.  Decorum pales in comparison to truth in many instances.

    Parent
    Indeed... (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:52:01 AM EST
    we're wallowing in faux-decorum lacking in truth...I'll take truth as mandatory, decorum optional.

    Brownback should be grateful for the decorum he got actually...he deserves must juicier descriptions than the tame "s*cking" and "blowing".  

    Parent

    Ha! (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:51:59 AM EST
    Yes, this is why our level of discourse has sunk so low - someone said a pol sucks.

    That whole torture thing, that whole Iraq Debacle thing, that whole screw the 99% thing, not a problem.

    Let's just be nice about how we're getting screwed.

    I definitely got it right - our resident Ruth Marcus.

    I will say this - I've written about my daughter and Occupy so one time I have to accept the mention of her in these threads.

    But let it be the last time.

    I won't mention her anymore either, probably should not have in the first place.

    But I won't anymore, and you won't either at Talk Left. Ok?

    Parent

    But the kid didn't say to the gov (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:04:34 AM EST
    that he sucked, as she messaged that she did.  Now, if she had messaged that to the gov, with reasons why he sucked, that would be gutsy of her.

    I do admire your daughter for speaking truths to power, with her presence.  She didn't just tweet stuff that she pretended to do.  She did it.  That is gutsy.

    Parent

    That's not exactly what she messaged (none / 0) (#43)
    by Romberry on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:52:13 AM EST
    As I posted in letters at Salon, I think some people may be mis-reading what this girl tweeted. From my comment at Salon:
    Let's look at it again: "Just made mean comments at gov brownback and told him he sucked, in person. #heblowsalot."

    Ms. Sullivan didn't say that she "made mean comments to gov brownback", she said she "made mean comments at gov brownback."  Her use of language here is imprecise, that is true. But I think to say that what she tweeted was dishonest or otherwise a lie is a step too far. I don't read her tweet as saying that she had an up close and personal interaction with Brownback. I read it as saying that she "saw him in person" much as people who attend political events and listen to candidates speak say that they "saw them in person", and that she made comments at Brownback much as someone at a political event might make comments at the speaker during a speech (whether the speaker heard those comments or not.)

    Ms. Sullivan's language was imprecise ...(but) If you're looking for precision in language, you'll not be well-served by looking to either Twitter or teenagers in high school.

    Maybe I am misreading what this young woman said. Maybe I am overly inclined to give her the benefit of a doubt. But I think that my reading of her short (and linguistically imprecise) tweet is not an unreasonable reading at all.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:00:19 PM EST
    we have this:

    : "Just made mean comments at gov brownback and told him he sucked, in person.


    Parent
    WHO CARES? (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by DFLer on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:15:12 PM EST
    He DOES suck!

    Parent
    Re-read my post. (none / 0) (#51)
    by Romberry on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:13:03 PM EST
    You obviously didn't read it carefully, because you obviously missed this:
    I don't read her tweet as saying that she had an up close and personal interaction with Brownback. I read it as saying that she "saw him in person" much as people who attend political events and listen to candidates speak say that they "saw them in person", and that she made comments at Brownback much as someone at a political event might make comments at the speaker during a speech (whether the speaker heard those comments or not.)

    I once saw Mick Jagger "in person" (New Orleans, 1981) and shouted at him (and the rest of the Rolling Stones) in person. If there had been a Twitter then and I tweeted "I just shouted at Mick Jagger in person", would I be lying?

    You read Ms. Sullivan's tweet however you want. I believe that my reading is reasonable and supportable.

    You seem predisposed to believing she flat-out lied. I'm predisposed to believing that he language was not very precise and giving her the benefit of a doubt because of that imprecision. Perhaps it would be best to ask her what it was that she meant. Hopefully some enterprising reporter will if in fact some enterprising reporter has not done so already. But ya know what? It doesn't really matter to me. That argument is nothing but a distraction from the real issue, and that issue is a columnist for the WaPo essentially getting a case of the vapors because someone somewhere doesn't adhere to her preferred love of, respect for and deference to authority.

    Parent

    Reread mine (none / 0) (#54)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:28:17 PM EST
    -- although I will omit the rudeness that you so deserve in reply -- and you will see that she said that she said nothing to others, either.

    Now, I am trusting her to be telling the truth about that.  Why do you think that she is lying now?

    Parent

    You get that my reply was... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Romberry on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:43:16 PM EST
    ...to jimakaPPJ and not to you, yes? See that "Your comments" link in the right hand margin? Maybe you should learn to use it.

    Parent
    Does not compute. (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:42:19 PM EST
    I just shouted at Mick Jagger in person", would I be lying?

    This is not the same as:

     "Just made mean comments at gov brownback and told him he sucked, in person.

    Parent

    Now, perhaps Huffpo and other media (none / 0) (#47)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:02:29 PM EST
    by the hundreds on this story are lying, or perhaps the young woman was lying when she said the following that was reported widely, with no retraction that I could find:

    She actually made no such comment and said she was "just joking with friends."

    But I based my comment on that.  If you have seen evidence otherwise, I'd be glad to reframe my comment.  

    Parent

    Perhaps she was just joking with friends... (none / 0) (#52)
    by Romberry on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:17:55 PM EST
    ...and perhaps she claimed so to some reporter. But just because something is reported even in hundreds of media outlets, that does not make what is reported so. And frankly, even if the girl did say so, that doesn't necessarily make it so either.

    As I said earlier in this discussion, "It doesn't really matter to me. That argument is nothing but a distraction from the real issue, and that issue is a columnist for the WaPo essentially getting a case of the vapors because someone somewhere doesn't adhere to her preferred love of, respect for and deference to authority."

    Parent

    As I said, show me that she since (none / 0) (#55)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:30:08 PM EST
    has clarified this otherwise, and I'll certainly adjust to new information.

    Right now, I find those reports more reliable.

    Parent

    If you say so (none / 0) (#56)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:33:04 PM EST
    I'm not going to try to substantiate your comments but I'll accept them somewhat.  

    But again, were I that girl, and had I made an under-my-breath comment and then exaggerated, and were I then subject to a the same public microscope where everyone has read my words/actions as being braver than they actually were, I would backtrack exactly as you say she did.  

    And "joking with friends" could encompass the very behavior that I envisioned to begin with.  

    That poor girl.  She was a foolish teen and then a federal case was actually made of it.  

    So, yes.  I still think "harsh".

    Parent

    btw (none / 0) (#60)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    Huffpo in and of itself is not a credible source.  I never go there.  

    Parent
    For what it's worth (none / 0) (#34)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:09:49 AM EST
    I read that "your daughter" as a hypothetical/proverbial rather than as a specific reference to your family (granted I could be wrong, and it may have been an inappropriate jab).

    But having said that, the comment is just another example of jb's tendency to support authority over personal liberty and honesty.

    Parent

    Honesty? The kid lied. (none / 0) (#36)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:18:52 AM EST
    And as for personal liberty in a school setting, as if.  

    As in, if that school doesn't already have a rule about not using electronic devices in assemblies, and in class, you can bet that it has one now.

    The governor's staff was 'way out of line, as was the principal.  But the kid was at least a bit out of line, no?

    Parent

    Harsh Towanda (none / 0) (#39)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:33:32 AM EST
    And -- for all you know -- possibly incorrect.  As I mentioned below, my assumption was that she did indeed say what she said she did.  Just not publicly.  She's a teenager.  And while she may be old enough to vote, I've been the parent of a teenager.  And had teenage cousins and nieces and nephews.  And actually been one myself.  Teenage reality always seems to have just a touch of fantasy in it.

    An act of exaggeration at the very least.  But you have no way of knowing if it's a lie.  Just because she didn't stand up, call a mic check and shout it out, it doesn't mean she didn't say it.

    And before you get up in arms -- I'm not saying positively that she did.  Only that that I'm not positive that she didn't.

    But focusing on the parental responsibility and calling "Liar! Liar!" is making you as blind to a possibly larger issue as is Ruth Marcus.

    Parent

    She said that she lied (none / 0) (#42)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:50:54 AM EST
    although she did not use that verb, of course; she said that she had not said anything to the governor (and others in the audience would know that she did), did not message the governor, did not say anything to others on this order, etc.

    That's what I have read; if you have read that she retracted the above and did speak to the governor as she had claimed, then I stand corrected (and would like to see the link, of course, or at least learn when she did so for me to search for it).

    As for raising a feisty teenage daughter, too -- and one with impulse control problems and the like -- see my reply to you below.  

    Parent

    "A bit out of line" = "harsh" (none / 0) (#44)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:57:48 AM EST
    . . . really?  

    My concern is that this student may not be learning some lessons that will prevent really harsh consequences for her in future.

    I just read a piece by a recent college graduate,  just a few years older than Emma Sullivan, who said this far better -- as that young writer also is well aware of increased consequences these days for so many students who cannot separate fantasy from reality, who hurt themselves on social media, etc.

    Parent

    Yes, really (none / 0) (#59)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:37:42 PM EST
    Towanda (none / 0) (#151)
    by Amiss on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 03:45:56 AM EST
    My 16 yr. old nephew attends a class in a public school and a cell phone is REQUIRED.


    Parent
    I get you (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Dec 03, 2011 at 08:02:57 PM EST
    we expect a certain level of manners from our children despite the crazy bad behavior of the adults around them.  

    Parent
    every time I hear this (none / 0) (#16)
    by CST on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:16:13 AM EST
    "our level of political discourse has sunk so low"

    I wonder whether that person has ever really followed "political discourse" as a historical thing.  I'm pretty sure it's always been low, and it's certainly been a lot lower than it is today.

    Does anyone really think the segregationists were polite?  The further you go back the worse it gets.  "Gangs of New York" era?  Such high levels of discourse there.

    Politics is a bloody sport.  At least these days it's not usually actually bloody anymore.

    Parent

    Getting bloodier by and by (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:01:08 PM EST
    Oh! Hello MKS (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:36:38 PM EST
    My little drive-by troll rating stalker.  How are you today?  

    You're the first one I've noticed who pretty much reserves your rating finger for troll rating innocuous statements.

    Although I did see that you used comments to more or less call someone else dishonest ("I'm not buying it" is pretty much equivalent to "You are not being honest")

    Have fun today.  Toodles.

    Parent

    Public comments to MKS (none / 0) (#93)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:01:03 PM EST
    who likes to troll rate rather than comment.  I'm wondering what the downrating --> midrating of this comment is all about.  The change strikes me as hiding your troll rating tracks, but I could be mistaken.

    No doubt your rating finger will get a workout on this comment as well, but really -- how cowardly of you.  I don't agree with ABG on much but I have to say (and rather admire) that he's right out there in the open and doesn't do stealth attacks.  Unlike you.

    Parent

    Just write (none / 0) (#94)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:06:46 PM EST
    MKSblowsalot.

    Cuz I ain't getting involved in no ratings horsesh*t.

    Ratings are meaningless here you know.

    Parent

    But wait, wait (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:09:33 PM EST
    Do we want to say "blowsalot" or "sucksalot"?  And is the distinction important?  Inquiring minds want to know.   ;-)  

    Parent
    Thanks! (none / 0) (#95)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:07:36 PM EST
    I was wondering how to handle that!  LOL

    Parent
    I'm right here (none / 0) (#109)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:22:40 PM EST
    Don't hide....

    Sometimes time does not permit a written response but I still generally respond....

    Parent

    So, I finally read the comments (none / 0) (#113)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:33:41 PM EST
    precipitating this brouhaha, and I think it is spooky what the school did......

    Monitoring someone's twitters and tweets?

    And Sullivan's comments?  I had to read them twice to figure out what was wrong.  Heh, I get called that here....

    If she had said that in person or interrupted an event yelling out such things like "You Lie!" during a speech, well then, it would be really, really bad.

    But a twitter comment?  Get lost school!

    Parent

    "decorum" is a lie (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:57:43 AM EST
    And an extremely "uncivil" lie, as well....

    Your comment sucks.

    Parent

    More interessting: The Gov.'s operation (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 05:21:33 PM EST
    monitors her tweets. And she is a tweeting liar.


    Parent
    For what it's worth, I don't think your argument is valid.  You seem to imply that there is a relationship between decorum and rational argument.  But that does not follow.  I think it's obvious that one can construct an argument that is at once perfectly rational and highly persuasive but lacking in decorum. One often sees such arguments in this comments section of this very blog. Indeed, I am frequently guilty of this and I often regret having written with my poison pen. But not tonight.

    As a lawyer who loves the legal method, I agree that everyone, including this young lady, ought to learn the art of making a rational argument. But then maybe she already knows how to construct a rational argument but was simply "tweeting" snarky comments to her friends.  Probably even Daniel Webster was a little bit casual in his speaking and arguments when he was among friends and not arguing before the Supreme Court.  

    People use language differently in different situations and contexts. Her language and her reasoning seem to me to be appropriate for the situation. She was commenting informally to her friends, not writing a legal brief or making a formal presentation to her class as part of a school assignment. Are you saying that you've never referred to a politician or a judge in a derogatory manner when you were among friends?

    As for why it's a big deal, I'll tell you why it's a big deal to me.  I don't like bullies and Gov. Brownback is a bully.  Doesn't it offend you that the thin-skinned punk governor of her state brought all of the power of state government to bear on this young woman because he was affronted by her saying that he "sucked"?  That he demanded that she write him an "apology" and figuratively grovel before him?  He that how an adult should act?  Is that a responsible use of the power of his high office?  I mean, really, where's your sense of perspective?

    And, you know what, if I was in an informal setting or was "tweeting" about this incident and need to make a précis of the preceding paragraph I'd probably say something like "Sam Brownback is an asshole".  Which would be both a succinct and an accurate statement of what I said and of my personal opinion of Sam Brownback's character.


    Parent

    Uh, really? (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:32:44 AM EST
    From the Greenwald link:

    Sullivan attended a school-sponsored event at which Gov. Brownback spoke, and during it, tweeted to her 60 followers: "Just made mean comments at gov brownback and told him he sucked, in person. #heblowsalot."

    Sullivan did not in fact say anything to Brownback, but merely expressed this sentiment on her Twitter feed.

    Are you folks saying it is okay for her to make a false claim? Just because it is about someone you don't like?

    For goodness sake, and the young lady's sake, lay aside the politics and explain to her that a lie is a lie. And lying will get you in big time trouble.

    That's what her mother should do. That's what the other adults in her life should do.

    Don't lie on your Twitter feed. (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:40:32 AM EST
    Indeed, one of the most important of the commandments.  

    Parent
    She wasn't under oath Jim... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:45:32 AM EST
    she was on twitter.  False claim...good one.

    Sh*t imagine what would have happened is she said it to his face...she'd probably have broken out in handcuffs the way we roll lately.

    Parent

    Under the New Authoritarianism (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:03:28 PM EST
    every prank by every high schooler would be met with immediate expulsion and the enforced wearing of an ankle bracelet. It's so far over the edge of reasonableness, it's as if these authoritarians were never anything but perfect little boys and girls in school...Maybe they were perfect. The kind of kids I always hated.

    School kids tweeting is like writing something "nasty" on the blackboard when teacher isn't looking. I read that Sullivan had only 65 followers before the governor's staff went wacko and made a federal case out of it!!

    Parent

    Ruth Marcus isn't on the fainting couch (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:53:07 AM EST
    because Sullivan didn't actually do what she said she did in her tweet, she is having the vapors over the words and hash tag Sullivan used in that tweet.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but (1) Sullivan should own up to her misrepresentation and (2) Ruth Marcus should consider letting go of her pearls over the words of an 18-year old and focus on the policies and actions of the people who are making policy and passing legislation and governing the millions of people who have to live with the consequences.

    No one's giving Sullivan a pass for not telling the truth about her face-to-face with Brownback - but that wasn't the point of the post, or of Ruth Marcus' column.

    In fact, Marcus seems to be incensed that Sullivan's parents are not teaching their daughter the proper respect for authority - respect that Marcus exhibits on a regular basis in the form of finding ways to excuse the actions and policies of the power elite and regularly failing to ask the hard questions the power elite should be required to answer.

    Parent

    Best I can tell (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:06:00 AM EST
    the vast majority here are applauding her intent, even if she didn't actually do it.

    And she is 18. She is not a child. She is a young adult with very limited experience.

    As someone who was raised with the explicit instructions to not trust politicians and the police, my Dad saw them as one and the same, I don't give a flip what she would have said.

    But her mother should remind her that before you can get anything changed you must get cooperation from the other person. And calling them names and other obscenities is not the way to do it.

    Parent

    Please take your foot off of my throat? (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Mitch Guthman on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:44:27 AM EST
    I'm not sure how she's supposed to "get the cooperation" of elected officials who are totally dependent on the ultra-rich and the financial services industry. If she can't offer them bribes in the form of campaign contributions or lavish them with money when they become lobbyists/fixers after leaving office, I don't see how she's supposed to get the cooperation of anybody in the political class by being polite.

    Calling them names might actually be helpful since it lets politicians know that there is some real anger out there and that just maybe they should consider carefully where their "loyalty" is placed because if that anger keeps building it might one day explode and then there would be real consequences for them.

    I'm reminded of the words of that great American business man Al Capone who once said: "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone."   Al Capone was a man who understood how to get real cooperation from politicians.  

    Parent

    You are assuming that she (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:07:05 PM EST
    won't treat other individuals the same way you think it is okay to treat politicians you are mad at.

    And that's the lesson she is being taught.

    We both know that won't work.

    Parent

    Can't speak for Mitch (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:44:05 PM EST
    but I'm not assuming that.  
    You are assuming that she... won't treat other individuals the same way you think it is okay to treat politicians you are mad at
    You disparage people on a pretty regular basis and now you're concerned about civility?

    Too funny.

    Parent

    You have to disparage people ... (none / 0) (#90)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:54:25 PM EST
    ... with an old-school, southern touch ... indirectly, backhanded ...

    Maybe with an "LOL" or a ;-) at the end of her tweet ...

    Parent

    maybe (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:53:29 PM EST
    #blesshisheart

    Parent
    I plead guilty to launching a (none / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:24:24 PM EST
    snark from time to time.

    But I'm not seeking to change anything or anyone on TL.

    Parent

    I have been trying (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:45:37 PM EST
    to teach my own daughter that degree of disrespect for authority figures.

    Who made a jocular fib by a high school student to a few dozen of her friends the subject of all the Right's self-righteous demands for absolute truth in high school student jokes?

    The governor of Kansas, by leveling the awesome power of The State against a young woman who had every right to believe her statements, rude or not, joking or serious, but certainly protected, would only be read by her 60 or so friends.

    Your problem is not with her lack of respect for authority.  It is with the authorities for proving her right.

    Parent

    Ha! (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:12:45 PM EST
    Are you really going "fainting couch" on us Jim on behalf of a pol?

    Tell me you are putting us on.

    Parent

    No, I am not and if you had read (none / 0) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:54:15 PM EST
    my earlier comment #32:

    As someone who was raised with the explicit instructions to not trust politicians and the police, my Dad saw them as one and the same, I don't give a flip what she would have said
    .

    My point was that she needs to understand that lying, which is what she did, causes problems.

    So what I see is a celebration over her doing something that she now admits she didn't do.

    And isn't the medium the message???

    Parent

    Lying to whom? (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:07:25 PM EST
    Her 60 twitter followers?

    Are we sure she was not just joking around?

    If you are sure, on what basis are you sure?

    Parent

    Surte? Well.....From your post (none / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:22:16 PM EST
    via the Greenwald link:

    Sullivan did not in fact say anything to Brownback, but merely expressed this sentiment on her Twitter feed

    Was she joking? I would say she was seeking attention from her "60 twitter followers."

    Did she lie? Yes. Was it harmless? Initially, yes. At this point she is either embarrassed or feel thrilled over all the attention. Embarrassment might teach her a lesson. Being thrilled can lead to problems.

    Parent

    What in the world are you smoking? (none / 0) (#143)
    by Mitch Guthman on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 02:05:59 AM EST
    What does "being thrilled can lead to problems" even mean?  What kind of problems are caused by being thrilled?  Happiness, maybe?  

    Really, are you saying that this girl is going to enter a state of terminal moral decline because she's thrilled to have gotten away with lying about having told Sam Brownback to his face that he "sucked"? (Which, evidently, he does).

    Parent

    Brownback didn't object to the lying. (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Mitch Guthman on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 01:04:09 AM EST
    You are mistaken.  It wasn't  the lying that caused problems for her.  It was saying that Sam Brownback "sucked" that got her in trouble.  Brownback's complaint to the girl's school principal had nothing to do with this lie that you are focused upon.  He was just steaming that a teenage girl had the effrontery to insult such an exalted man as himself by saying that he "sucked". That's it.  Nothing at all to do with lying. Just that she'd "tweeted" to her friends that he "sucked". Which, I might add, subsequent events have amply demonstrated that he does.

    Parent
    Worked pretty good for Big Al (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Mitch Guthman on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 01:58:27 AM EST
    I do believe that lots of public officials found him very persuasive. He was a man who knew how to get things done.

    But seriously, I think you're reading altogether to much into her "getting away with" saying that Brownback "sucked".  I don't think that it's a straight shot from "getting away with saying" a politician "sucks" to turning into some kind of a gangster, grabbing a shotgun and extorting her fellow students for their lunch money.  I think you need to put this into some kind of perspective. She "tweeted" to her followers that somebody "sucked".

    What's the big deal? How did this become some kind of morality play?


    Parent

    Jim, kids say all kinds of stuff (none / 0) (#114)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:40:52 PM EST
    or sh*t in tweets and texts that they wouldn't say in person--or to an adult, when they often talk so fast it seems they have invented a mumble form of Old English....

    Want to stay close to your kid, texting is best....

    Sullivan's tweet is the whimsical boast that seems endemic to today's kids....How much more harmless can you get...

    Parent

    I can only speak for this post (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:11:57 PM EST
    which is basically saying RuthMarcusblowsalot.

    I do not find a tweet to 60 people by an 18 year old comment worthy.

    Parent

    Oh, I understand she is 18 and inexperienced (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 04:00:28 PM EST
    That's why I am hopeful her Mother explains to her that she shouldn't make things up.

    Parent
    Personally I would rather (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:07:25 PM EST
    that her mother explain to the politicians that they shouldn't make things up.

    Parent
    Classic (none / 0) (#92)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:00:32 PM EST
    And calling them names and other obscenities is not the way to do it.

    From the guy who refers to Presidents Clinton and Obama as "Bubba Clinton" and "Obamie".

    Heh.

    Parent

    I see you can't read: (none / 0) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:02:45 PM EST
    From my comment #32:

    As someone who was raised with the explicit instructions to not trust politicians and the police, my Dad saw them as one and the same, I don't give a flip what she would have said.

    In case you don't know, Clinton and Obama are politicians.

    On the other hand it is not likely she will dealing with politicians for the vast majority of her life. Just ordinary people. Friends, co-workers, etc.

    But her mother should remind her that before you can get anything changed you must get cooperation from the other person. And calling them names and other obscenities is not the way to do it.


    Parent
    Ohhhhhhhhhh, I see ... (none / 0) (#110)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:24:04 PM EST
    You're saying that you don't care about her calling politicians names, but that her mother should remind her not to call people names.

    Heh.

    BTW - 1)  Aren't politicians "people"?, and 2)  More importantly, why do you think her mother should remind her not to call

    people
    (as opposed to politicians) "names and obscenities"?  Her "names and obscenities" (if you want to call them that) were directed solely at Sen. Brownback.  By your new-and-improved standard, she's all good, so there would be no need.

    Heh.

    Parent

    Heh heh (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:57:28 PM EST
    As I wrote:

    Did she lie? Yes. Was it harmless? Initially, yes. At this point she is either embarrassed or feel thrilled over all the attention. Embarrassment might teach her a lesson. Being thrilled can lead to problems.

    That's what her Mother should be talking to her about.

    You know Yman, you need to understand something. Let me explain.

    When we are invited for dinner at a friend's house who does not drink, we take flowers.

    When we are invited for dinner at a friend's house who does drink, we take a bottle of wine.

    It is called being courteous as a guest.

    Surely your mother explained that to you. Perhaps you have forgotten.

    Parent

    Duck, dodge, weave ... doesn't work. (none / 0) (#118)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 04:16:25 PM EST
    You not only complained about her "lie", but said her mother need to remind her not to call people names and obscenities.  Then you tried to backtrack and say you don't care about calling politicians names, but that she needs a lecture from her mother on why she shouldn't call people names - ignoring the fact that her comments were specifically about a politician.

    The rest of your post, apart from being nonsensical, is just a further attempt to hide your hypocrisy.

    Parent

    Well, hello (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 07:23:32 PM EST
    You actually got some of it right.

    Only I didn't backtrack. I quoted what I had written. You just want to do your usual bit and claim I meant something else.

    And yes, her mother, and I hope she does, needs to explain to her why it is in her best interest to not trust politicians. I also hope she explains to her why saying nasty things about our dear leaders is a treasured American tradition but being polite to each other on a daily basis is best for getting what you want.

    That is a skill that you have never mastered.

    So Good Night, Yman. You again demonstrate your desire to be disagreeable, claim I said things I did not and demand the last word.

    How do I know??

    Because you won't prove me wrong.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Already have, Jim (none / 0) (#134)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 09:09:30 PM EST
    Because you won't prove me wrong.

    Soooooooo many times it's really not possible to keep track, including this time.  To be honest, you'd think something that easy would get boring.

    But it doesn't.

    "LOL!"

    Parent

    Omg. (none / 0) (#122)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 05:32:57 PM EST
    It appears to be an unpopular (none / 0) (#124)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:14:28 PM EST
    viewpoint Donald, but I have to agree with you.  Some kids are very mature and aware at 15 or 16, other are childishly oblivious until into their twenties.

    As one who did not easily leave childhood behind I'm pretty skeptical about the "legal adult" argument.  You can't legislate maturity -- to which my youthful cluelessness can attest.  And I would have entrusted my well-being to none of my cohort.  We were all idiots at one level or another.

    Parent

    For once, we agree that false bravado (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:55:00 AM EST
    being applauded is not a good lesson for a kid.

    I hope, for her sake, that someone is making clear to her to be careful not to cross the line, as I have seen students do, from making up lies about themselves to making up lies about others -- or just making up stuff, period.  

    Crossing that line can have serious consequences for students (or others, of course).  Had her principal had a discussion about that, about the potential for crossing the line to libel, plagiarism, etc. -- no problem.

    Parent

    I agree - that would have been the (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:13:55 AM EST
    conversation to have with Sullivan, but...this is Kansas we're talking about, and Brownback is the governor, with power to do who-knows-what to punish those he felt had allowed a silly teenager to embarrass him.

    Sullivan needs to know, if her experience hasn't already made this glaringly obvious, that Twitter and Facebook and every other form of social media are being stalked by all manner of thought police.

    I am disappointed that she didn't actually speak to Brownback and tweet about it, because the backlash could have been used to highlight how repressive the government is getting about people speaking their minds - it worries me a great deal that we are being gradually brainwashed into being afraid to speak out - but the lie takes the focus off where the real danger to the rest of us, in general, is.

    Parent

    What would TL folk say if (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by the capstan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:04:14 PM EST
    the girl had bragged to friends about dissing a kid because he's gay?  No harm done cause she really had not done so?  Not the way I see it (as the parent of a gay adult who was once a gay teen).

    Telling a 'tall tale' to make yourself important can get you in a ton of trouble; a bad habit to  adopt as you enter adult life, complete with resumes, etc.

    And ps--in that first paragraph, it does not matter if the 'dissed' kid is really gay or not: from that time on, he's always suspect.

    So the gov. and staff went too far--from what I read here, yes.  But I am more concerned with what the high schooler thinks is appropriate conduct than I am with the gov. or Marcus.  (And haven't I read a few columns by Marcus which were not authoritarian?)

    Parent

    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:10:36 PM EST
    Could try that thought again please?

    Parent
    which thought? (none / 0) (#98)
    by the capstan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:11:55 PM EST
    The enitre comment (none / 0) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:05:54 PM EST
    Makes no sense to me - as in I did not understand it.

    Parent
    What I was saying is that (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by the capstan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 05:25:25 PM EST
    'publishing' false info in order to amuse your friends tends to desensitize the 'perp' to sticking to 'just the facts, ma'am.'  Sending 'tweets' that are false may advance from relatively innocent to one ot the net attacks that have caused suicides.  Sort of habit forming?

    As the parent of a couple of young people who would have been likely targets if the net had been around a few years ago, I just may be a little sensitive?

    Parent

    Not to diminish bullying (none / 0) (#123)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:08:57 PM EST
    which is a serious matter.  But, if I read you right, you are making a "slippery slope" argument.  And from where I sit most people are looking at the wrong slope when making that argument.

    I don't think you can be too sensitive to the issue (so good for you for looking out), but I think this is not that issue.

    imo

    Parent

    Mountains have more than one-slope side. (none / 0) (#126)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:23:58 PM EST
    Or: There can be the main issue (authoritarian governor & principal monitoring/censoring/overreacting to a teen's tweet) and a very related issue (the ramifications of inappropriate outbursts in everyday worklife etc when oblivious parents neglect to provide some guidance in general...towanda remarks &, in a broader sense, capstan remarks.)

    Both issues, unfortunately, start down different slopes. Often, what one has experienced in one's own life influences which slope we emphasize, maybe.

    Parent

    Yup, probably so (none / 0) (#129)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 07:07:15 PM EST
    Often, what one has experienced in one's own life influences which slope we emphasize, maybe.



    Parent
    That's exactly (none / 0) (#144)
    by the capstan on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 08:04:12 AM EST
    right!  I know my homosexual child did contemplate suicide (bullying per se was not so prevalent, but the AIDS factor was front and center) back in high school.  "Publishing" personal remarks about yourself or others on the forever-net can be more damaging than putting it into a newspaper that will last about a day.

    Thanks for your remark, christinep

    Parent

    Final word, I promise: (none / 0) (#147)
    by the capstan on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 09:26:22 AM EST
    "Sucks" at least began as a 'potty word,' not to mention a slam on gays.  The slang or 'vulgar' meaning is to 'perform fellatio on' someone.

    Parent
    To clarify (none / 0) (#148)
    by sj on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 10:22:29 AM EST
    Are you saying that Sullivan's mother neglected to provide some guidance in general?

    Parent
    About "guidance" (none / 0) (#149)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 12:09:00 PM EST
    The earlier comment was meant to be a general statement...but, reviewing, my contrast generalization was vague.  Other than those directly involved, i can but speculate as to the private words between mother and daughter.

    Parent
    :) Just when I think I have clarification (none / 0) (#150)
    by sj on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 12:25:04 PM EST
    you confuse me again.  I have no idea what you mean by this:
    Other than those directly involved,
    but I think I get get your gist.

    Parent
    I'm going to go with "actions have (none / 0) (#112)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:27:54 PM EST
    consequences," with a dash of "situational ethics" on the side.

    Parent
    Govenrnor Brownback is gay and she (none / 0) (#115)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:46:46 PM EST
    should not have outed him....

    Did I get that right?

    Parent

    You know what? (none / 0) (#37)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:22:59 AM EST
    I agree with you.  But if I were her mother and I had a choice to either publicly scold my daughter for dishonesty/exaggeration or publicly defend her right to speak freely, I would take exactly the same stand as her mother did.  Publicly.  What their private discussions have been we have no way to know.

    Having parented a teenager, my thoughts went to the probability that she did indeed say what she said she did -- just not loud enough for anyone to hear.  And again, I have no way to know.

    Parent

    And I agree with you (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:46:20 AM EST
    that I would not publicly scold my daughter for such an action.  However, I also would not say, as her mother did, that this is an example of her daughter being "independent, strong, and a free thinker" in this case.  

    I do agree with the mother that "if [her daughter] wants to tweet her opinion about Gov. Brownback, I say for her to go for it and I stand totally behind her" -- but not in saying that she did something that she did not do, not doing so in a school assembly, etc.

    When my daughter was angry about injustices that she saw, I encouraged her to write letters to the editor or to politicians. I worked with her to apply what she had learned in school about stating an argument and supporting it with evidence (and, of course, doing so in complete sentences with correct spelling, grammar, etc.).

    My daughter was twelve when she had her first letter to the editor published -- and when she also received her first letter of reply from a U.S. Senator.  She has continued to write many a letter since, and she received many a fine reply, sometimes asking her for more detail for evidence used by pols to actually effect change.

    This has helped a kid with anger management problems, learning to channel her anger in effective ways, as well as with the typical problems that so many at that age have in separating fantasy from reality -- and with learning the courtesies of life, so that when someone apologizes for their incorrect actions, she apologizes for any incorrect actions on her part, or even if she was totally in the right, she at least accepts the apology.  

    So I also hope that Emma Sullivan's parents have had constructive private conversations with her, as their daughter seems bright and politically involved; may she learn how to use her abilities to good effect for a good future.

    Parent

    Brownback didn't object to the false claim. (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Mitch Guthman on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 12:51:17 AM EST
    Being a lying bastard himself, it probably didn't occur to him that there was anything wrong with making a false claim on one's twitter feed.

    Apart from the fact that the young lady was sending a "tweet" to her friends and not writing an appellate brief, it wasn't the false claim of having told Brownback he "sucked" to his face that got her in big trouble.   What Brownback was unhappy about was that Sullivan said he "sucked". That's it. It was her saying that he "sucked" That's why a grown man and the governor of Kansas used the power of his office force her to apologize.  And it's quite clear that he wanted her to apologize for saying that he "sucked" and not for lying about having said it to his face.

    Now, I do agree with you that she shouldn't have falsely told her friends that she'd insulted that thin-skinned lout to his face. But surely in the overall scheme of things this is a trivial failing, at most.   Besides,  it seems clear to me that Brownback's despicable conduct in this affair establishes beyond doubt that Miss Sullivan was entirely justified in saying that he "sucked". (A sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree)

    Parent

    I just love it (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 08:18:01 AM EST
    Being a lying bastard himself, it probably didn't occur to him that there was anything wrong with making a false claim on one's twitter feed.


    Parent
    See the reply... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Romberry on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:58:21 AM EST
    ...I made to Towanda just a bit earlier.

    I don't think the young woman necessarily made a false claim. It can perhaps be interpreted that way, but I believe my reading of her words is quite reasonable and easily supportable.

    Parent

    See, I believe her (none / 0) (#49)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:03:57 PM EST
    when, as has been reported, she said that she was just joking and had not messaged the gov at all; see my reply above to your reply.

    But if there is reason now to know that she was lying when she said she wasn't lying, good to know!

    Parent

    You are focusing on exactly... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Romberry on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:20:43 PM EST
    ...the wrong thing and missing the forest for the trees as a result.

    Parent
    True, my focus as a former teacher (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:34:35 PM EST
    is on a young person who may not be learning the best lessons from this.

    I do not worry at all about what Ruth Marcus has learned from this.

    You seem to think that there is only one forest out there -- and that anyone who sees another forest must be in the wrong one.

    Parent

    What is this thread about? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Romberry on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:47:11 PM EST
    Seems to me that this thread is about Ruth Marcus using her position in the media to castigate a young woman for not being sufficiently respectful to authority. You on the other hand are having fits over the accuracy or inaccuracy of less than 140 characters in a Tweet. You have utterly missed the point.

    Parent
    Ah, you are correct (none / 0) (#72)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:51:53 PM EST
    that I broke the Rombery Rules about staying on point.

    So, since I care not a whit about Marcus, I will obey your rules and leave now.  Bye.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:09:49 PM EST
    Fainting couch because of Romberry?

    Funny. Why not tell him heblowsalot instead?

    Parent

    What are the best lessons iyo? (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    Here's a big tree for you: (none / 0) (#69)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:47:48 PM EST
    Now, Sullivan reports that she is being bullied by classmates, as a result of this notoriety.  (And I believe her; she is in high school and in Kansas.)  Again, an apparently bright and politically aware student is being distracted from her education, at a crucial point in that education in terms of GPA for college.

    I hope that there is some outrage left among commenters, journalists, et al., for the principal if the school does not step in to stop bullying that is a result of the notoriety -- notoriety that she did not invite simply by tweeting but notoriety to which the principal contributed.

    (Of course, blame mainly goes to the governor's staff, but best for her that they not contact her or her school ever again.)

    Parent

    Yes, I have deep loathing for the principal (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:22:06 PM EST
    But then, he's already proven himself to be the biggest idiot in the room in this phony scandal.

    Parent
    link please (none / 0) (#58)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:35:03 PM EST
    Can you tell me (none / 0) (#61)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:42:41 PM EST
    which other sources are okay with you, since you won't take Huffpo?  That's just the first one that came up when I googled, but there were many others.  (Of course, you could google, too. . . .).

    Parent
    news links (none / 0) (#64)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:44:21 PM EST
    I should clarify, though (none / 0) (#67)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:47:07 PM EST
    Although I despise Huffpo, they do sometimes have links themselves that are worth something.  I cannot deny that.

    I just won't go to Huffpo.

    Parent

    Of course I could google (none / 0) (#73)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:52:54 PM EST
    But I already told you that I'm not going to substantiate your claims for you.  You're making them repeatedly so frankly I'm rather surprised that you hadn't already referenced your sources.  As a teacher.  :)

    Parent
    Former teacher. So I know (none / 0) (#87)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:39:53 PM EST
    what you're doing, and I''m not playing, because I don't need to do so here (nor in a principal's office or a school board meeting or a parent-teacher conference, hallelujah).  I know what I read, I have quoted it directly, and so, if you really want to know, you can just cut and paste that into google.  

    I have asked you to state the sources that are acceptable to you.  Now, you do not accept Huffpo, which is interesting, but I'll accede that.  In return, I do not accept Wikipedia.  Next?

    Parent

    ::shrug:: (none / 0) (#89)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:52:01 PM EST
    As I said, I'm not going to substantiate your claims for you.  If you won't do it, then there is nothing more for us to talk about.  

    On this matter, that is.  There are plenty of other topics for us to discuss.  No need to beat this one to death.  I have no desire to get into it with you over such a trivial thing, so I will gladly withdraw.  

    Cheers.

    Parent