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Mubarak Resigns

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 12:54:46 PM EST
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Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak announced he is resigning and handing power to the military. A spokesman said:

"In the name of God the merciful, the compassionate, citizens, during these very difficult circumstances Egypt is going through, President Hosni Mubarak has decided to step down from the office of president of the republic and has charged the high council of the armed forces to administer the affairs of the country," he said.

"May God help everybody."

Defence Minister Mohamed Hussein Tantawi is the top military commander. As for Mubarak, he has left Cairo for his home in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.

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    Mubarak Resigns | 67 comments (67 topical)

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    I think the people of Egypt... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:12:12 PM EST
    ...would prefer the people of the U.S. reform our own rotted government before we "help" them remake theirs.  It'll certainly be interesting to see how President Change, ahem, frames his public statement.

    I can't speak for them, but I can speak (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:02:30 PM EST
    for myself, and I don't know how anyone can listen to Obama talk about American ideals and a transparent government that doesn't steal from the people, and the rule of law and preserving the right of the people to be heard, and not wonder if they've fallen down the rabbit hole.

    His words ring hollow in light of his actions, and the actions of his administration; as far as I'm concerned, he has no credibility at all.

    None.


    Parent

    Sadly, I concur (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:23:26 PM EST
    When he was speaking so eloquently I could only thing, "Where was that when the Wall Street dictatorship needed to be toppled?"  Then again, when you want to be part of that Street and its power, well, enough said.

    Parent
    I'm sure that you know, Dadler (3.67 / 3) (#54)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:50:31 PM EST
    that the "dictatorship" you ascribe to Wall Street is a wee bit different than the incomparable suffering of people in cages and on the streets in Egypt during Mubarak's regime.

    In one sense, I hear your concern.  But, today, it rings hollow; save it for another day.  The continuum is a bit different here than there; we definitely need to move more quickly along that continuum toward reform...but, hyperbole here defeats your point.

    Again, as I've said elsewhere, this is a day for Egypt. It really isn't a time to dust off our differences with each other over the state of politics in this country.  In many respects, I support your points, but "getting carried away" diminishes your position.

    Parent

    To: Jane in Calif (none / 0) (#56)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 11:16:24 PM EST
    Whether I struck a nerve or not doesn't really matter. What does matter is the nature of a destructive response such as yours...entirely unresponsive & inappropriate. Your anger might be better placed in reading a bit of history; somewhere in any number of history books, it may become clear that the Wall Street situation (admittedly deceitful and disgusting) is nowhere near the same league of the travails faced by Egyptians for those many years under Mubarak.

    Parent
    Somebody (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by Jane in CA on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 12:21:27 AM EST
    struck a nerve, certainly ...

    Let me be very clear, christinep. I'm not assigning equivalency to the Wall Street situation and what happened today in Egypt. Once again, you have jumped to a completely uncalled for conclusion.  You do this frequently. And that's why I downgrade you.

    You probably don't realize it, but you tend to short-circuit conversations by personalizing posters, attributing motives to him/her based on your perception of that poster's character traits. It shuts down conversations quickly.

    I believe you mean well, but I also think it is rude to tell posters that they shouldn't feel a particular way simply because you don't believe they should. It also preempts conversations that may interest others.

    Please know that it is not my intent to offend you with my bluntness, and I hope I haven't done so.  

    And for the record ... I am thrilled almost beyond words with the victory for the people of Egypt today. I liked the President's speech. I also think Dadler and Anne have the right to talk about their concerns that our country may be headed in a similar direction if the course is not changed. That's all.

    Peace.


    Parent

    The people that you mention (none / 0) (#60)
    by christinep on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 06:24:21 PM EST
    have quite strong opinions--as I am sure you know. They have every right to and do state them quite strongly at times. Guess what? Sometimes others--such as myself--can and do disagree with them in equally strong terms. (And, yes, I am sure that you mean well. Thank you, and peace with you as well.)

    Parent
    Uprated because I don't think (none / 0) (#58)
    by sj on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 01:01:55 PM EST
    this is a troll worthy comment. But Jane in CA has a really good point.

    Parent
    People on this blog sometimes express (none / 0) (#61)
    by christinep on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 06:31:10 PM EST
    themselves quite strongly. See comment immediately above. Yet, sj, tho I take your point, it should be pointed out that there are groupings here. We all know that. I do not say, nor believe, some things that others have said in quite strong & strident terms (particularly "the US-is-going-to-he**-in-a-handbasket" theme that some have bemoaned with great zeal.) More power to each with strong beliefs...we, myself included, are entitled to state those strong beliefs within the bounds of civility and other rules of the trade.

    Seriously, those of us who "dish it out" (me included) should be able to take it without troll ratings. BTW, the original Dadler comment appeared to me--and still does--to equate rotten Wall Street shenanigans with the many years of human travesty (maiming & death, etc.) in Egypt. That is hyperbole.

    Parent

    According (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by Jane in CA on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 07:21:58 PM EST
    to the commenting etiquette, as I understand it on this site, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you disagreeing strongly with Dadler, and stating your opposition as eloquently as possible.

    What I think is not acceptable, is when you personalize the conversation, when you tell Dadler that he is getting "carried away," to "save it for another day," that it isn't an appropriate time to discuss his concerns.

    Jeralyn is quite capable of telling posters that they have gone off topic, and to knock it off. It is not your job to police the board, and -- quite frankly -- personalizing your responses in such a potentially offensive manner weakens the strength of your own argument, IMO.

    You strike me as a very passionate and informed poster, christinep.  Why not let your arguments stand on their own merit? I know you can argue your point very articulately without, say, accusing other posters of allowing their agenda to blind them. We all have agendas, you included. We wouldn't be on this site if we didn't.

    Feeling like I'm sounding kind of sanctimonious here, so I'm quitting now. Thanks for hearing me out.


    Parent

    Okay (none / 0) (#64)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 14, 2011 at 12:30:13 PM EST
    Jane: If the issue is a phrase like "save it for another day," I would agree never to use that phrase again IF others would also not try to shut down discussion nor belittle people who disagree with them. Honestly.

    Parent
    never mind (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by sj on Mon Feb 14, 2011 at 01:44:12 PM EST
    maybe some day I'll try again.  You like to give the impression that you are broadminded and open to suggestion so sometimes I forget.

    Parent
    I am open to suggestion (none / 0) (#66)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 14, 2011 at 02:46:30 PM EST
    That I might disagree with something does not mean that I don't listen. Let me suggest: When you tell someone that they are not open to suggestion and imply by writing that "you like to give the impression that you are broadminded" that there is something intrinsically wrong with a commenter (me), what do you suppose that appears to be?  Frankly, sj, I think we are talking about "tone." You may not like my "tone" (as you read it) and term it "scold"ing; but, recognize that the "tone" of those with whom you agree might sound somewhat off-the-scale, at times, to me.  Maybe there is a middle ground; but, it takes two.

    Parent
    we are so not talking about tone (5.00 / 0) (#67)
    by sj on Mon Feb 14, 2011 at 03:17:41 PM EST
    so ... never mind.

    Parent
    That's not the point (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by sj on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 09:51:03 PM EST
    that was being made.  I have very strong beliefs on many different issues as do most here.  But the "bounds of civility" as you so aptly put it, include giving space to air those viewpoints without being scolded.

    Your statement that you view the original comment as hyperbole is not scolding and (in my view anyway) falls completely within the bounds of civility, but the admonishment to "save it for another day" does not.  Do you see the difference?  One is your own opinion, the other is an attempt to shut down conversation.

    Peace.

    Parent

    Hannity yesterday and (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:24:47 PM EST
    former CIA person on CNN opining Muslim Brotherhood may create an Iran in Egypt. I suppose it could happeb. But these people were either fearmongers or convinced this is the inevitable outcome.

    There a lot of devout Muslims in Egypt. But we also saw lots of women wearing tight and fashonable Western attire, drinking alcohol, while wearing a covering of their hair.

    they are as (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:27:30 PM EST
    irrelevant to this conversation as Mubarak is.  seriously.  no one but the frightened old people they have cultivated so carefully give a rats a$$ what they think.

    they are a joke.  and people are starting to get it.
    Beck has lost, what, 2/3 of his audience in the last few months.  he is the one I want to hear from.

    Parent

    the most despicable (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by CST on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:08:53 PM EST
    comparison to me is the reaction of these same talking heads to the invasion of Iraq and how we were going to "spread democracy in the middle east".

    Good ol' USA was gonna come along and save the day for all those poor oppressed Muslims.  But heaven forbid they try to do it for themselves.

    Parent

    really (none / 0) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:02:07 PM EST
    how can you possibly spread democracy without incinerating a few thousand people.

    Parent
    Eh (none / 0) (#8)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:28:14 PM EST
    Hannity is insane.  There's really no justification for his POV...at all.

    Parent
    Yesterday? (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:31:49 PM EST
    its all I've heard from FOX and CIA-types since Day 1 of the revolution.

    Fearmongers hoping for the worst, and the ratings from the fearful that come with it for Hannity/Fox, and the budget justification for former-CIA boy and his ilk, imko...they need war and strife and fear to make a living, peace and solutions are bad for business.

    Parent

    I will tell you what they are also (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:36:19 PM EST
    very antsy and uncomfortable with.  this whole thing has pulled back the curtain on the way we, the west, has done business there since, well, since forever.

    it aint pretty.  and trying to explain why we have propped him up for 30 years AND why the country is in revolt in the glare of the klieg lights cant be easy.

    poor things.

    Parent

    Can you imagine if we had Al Jazeera on TV (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:42:33 PM EST
    here?  It would completely undermine their message.  Which is always the same anyway.  

    Parent
    I would say (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:49:41 PM EST
    that not just fox but broadly the US media is more frightened of AlJazzera than Mubarak is.


    Parent
    Like we discussed briefly before... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:51:23 PM EST
    its not like anybody with half a brain didn't already know about all the dirty, that Mubarek was our horse...and those that didn't know will not be convinced or swayed...the America does no wrong crowd.

    Parent
    well (none / 0) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:55:02 PM EST
    yes and no.  true most everyone who CARES knew about it.  but I am willing to bet that there are many many people in the US today who have a whole new sense of our "history in the region"

    Parent
    But will they care? (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:10:01 PM EST
    If they didn't care before?

    Parent
    Exactly right - they would looove it if it were (none / 0) (#25)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:29:01 PM EST
    true. But it's not.

    Parent
    2 weeks kid... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:56:49 PM EST
    getting psyched for my reprieve from self-imposed hermitude...you, oculus and G. Rush are all I got going on between now and Mexico...was damn proud of myself for turning down two invites to go out and spend money tonight:)

    At this rate, barring any new blizzards, all the plow-made icebergs might be melted by the time you get here!

    Parent

    Such a-holes (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:47:24 PM EST
    They should be so ashamed of themselves but haven't the common sense so whatever.  They and all of their devoted are proof that someone can self inflict personality disorders upon themselves and then grow them and nurture them into something even larger. The truth is that pro West populated Iran could become the next Egypt.  Iran could become the next Egypt, not the other way around, and that is why Iran shut down all of the coverage of the Egyptian protests that it could.

    Parent
    Right (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:09:00 PM EST
    I read that Hezbollah was fearing a peaceful protest and possible overthrow to such a degree that it stopped coverage in... Lebanon, I believe.

    They whole bunch, right wing nutz addicted to violence and oppression on every side of the debate is not digging this turn of events, including stooopid a$$ Hannity.

    Parent

    Yesterday, as I was driving home, I had (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:24:10 PM EST
    the misfortune to be listening to C-SPAN, and heard an earlier exchange between some Congresswoman from NY questioning someone from the State Department, and ALL she wanted to know, ALL she kept after him about was: what is the US doing about making sure that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't get a foothold of any kind in the new Egyptian government ("But, what are you going to DO to make sure the Muslim Brotherhood isn't a part of the government?")  And the State Dept. guy kept saying, it isn't up to us to determine who is and isn't part of the government, that that is up to the Egyptian people to decide, and the important thing is that everyone have a voice, be part of the conversation.  That there was nothing wrong with a political conversation in which the MB was included, should they choose to participate.

    The Congresswoman was nearly wetting her pants that she couldn't get this guy to give her the answers she wanted, which were, I guess, some version of, "if those guys make one move on the Egyptian government, we'll go all Iraq on their asses."

    I would have clicked over to something else, but I was transfixed by the realization - once again - that we have people in our government who have been so brainwashed to believe that anything that looks Muslim and sounds Muslim is the personification of evil and must be eradicated.  

    Wouldn't surprise me if she'd purged her home of anything made of muslin, just because it sounded too much like "muslim."


    Parent

    I want to start the Muslin Botherhood (none / 0) (#26)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:30:28 PM EST
    We can sew up some outfits.

    Parent
    Nah, they'd wrinkle too much (none / 0) (#27)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:52:40 PM EST
    but it beats a Polyester Brotherhood, you bet.

    Parent
    Think of all the crazies (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:53:23 PM EST
    that the American democracy has to learn how to deal with, and I guess we are the only society capable of self governance through something that resembles a democracy.  Just us and a couple of other old schoolers on the global block, but for everyone else....you can't have one cuz God only knows what you guys would do with it.  As if basic human beings can't measure out cost, loss, and risk for themselves.  So far in this country recently though, we had the one guy whose whole house was a bomb so we had to evacuate the neighborhood and blow it, and then we had the guy building and transporting IEDs.  What if anyone dangerous got a foothold in our country?

    The worst thing that could happen to the whole world and Egypt is that the Egyptian government and prisons continue to torture their people into seeking ways of violently getting even with those who enable their repression and torture with lots of support from others who are being repressed and tortured.

    Parent

    I've been reading Sarah Vowell (none / 0) (#36)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:00:32 PM EST
    who brilliant reminds us we haven't changed much in oh...almost 400 years.  Case in point:  The Massachusetts Bay Colony seal.  

    Parent
    She's a very interesting person (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 10:36:42 AM EST


    Parent
    I listened to Rush (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:16:08 PM EST
    for a little bit too on our trip to Texas.  I stumbled onto him on the radio and decided to listen.  He went on and on about Michelle Obama and how she is now the leading authority on gardening and nutrition.  That damned man is crazier than feck.  I don't know if the people who were calling in and saying they were his listeners were being completely truthful.  But one guy said he was a Republican and ran miles every day and didn't understand what was wrong with a first lady simply pointing out to people healthier food, eating, and exercise.  Every first lady chooses something dear to her heart to champion.  And a woman phoned in and told him that she wasn't going to listen to him anymore because the country had real serious problems but all he could do was scream the name Obama every day while not having any solutions to our problems.  After so many ticked off listeners giving him hell, Rush then went on to say that what everyone was really mad about was that the Superbowl was going to be played in Dallas and everyone was taking that anger out on him :)  What a FRUITCAKE!

    All of this was before Egypt though, can't imagine what he has to say about that.

    Parent

    I thought the pure insanity (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:18:37 PM EST
    of the haters was captured perfectly by the guy who said that Michelle was endangering people by causing them to get out in the street and run and stuff.  you could get hit by a car fer gods sake.

    Parent
    today in history (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:55:20 PM EST
    • Fall of Iran

    • Mandela released from prison

    • Sarah Palin's birthday

    you cant make this stuff up

    Man, You Just Had to Toss in Palin (none / 0) (#22)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:10:10 PM EST
    It is pretty damn interesting.

    Parent
    Btw (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:56:17 PM EST
    Al Jazeera spoke to a figure in the Muslim Brotherhood today and he congratulated all Egyptians, secular and religions, Muslim and Coptic Christian.  

    imagine (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:58:13 PM EST
    that

    Parent
    I thought I'd post it (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:03:37 PM EST
    as I'm sure it will get lost in the fray.

    Parent
    The word "historic" (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:00:56 PM EST
    The word "historic" has been used and misused so often in recent years that it takes the awakening of today to fill it with true meaning again. Of course, there will be many challenges ahead, but this historic day is not the time for fear, wallowing, and animus. The history of this historic land of 6,000 years of civilization experience bursts forth in a gorgeous flower of joy and hopeful realization. This day is wonderful...and truly HISTORIC.

    military (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:04:17 PM EST
    salutes the martyrs.  literally

    obama (none / 0) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:07:40 PM EST
    at 3.  very curious to hear this one

    And I'm curious to hear why (none / 0) (#24)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:26:30 PM EST
    his speech was delayed again; the latest previous announcement was that he would speak at 1:30.

    Parent
    like wizards (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:59:47 PM EST
    presidents are never late.  the full text is here.

    wouldnt want you to miss it.

    Parent

    just said in the other thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:00:29 PM EST
    it was IMO pitch perfect.  almost Reaganesque if you will pardon the expression.

    Parent
    The best part was that he framed it (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:30:23 PM EST
    entirely in terms of Egypt and the Egyptian people, and not by reference to America's great democracy.

    For that, I am thankful, because the emphasis deserved to be, and needed to be, on Egypt and the huge victory they won over the last 18 days - period.

    It was simply refreshing to me that Obama allowed the Egyptians to have their moment, and the spotlight he held up to these historic events did not have us in it, waving a figurative "hi, Mom" to the cameras.

    I'm sure we're in there, somewhere, but this was and is Egypt's time.

    Parent

    IMO (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:50:46 PM EST
    he has very adroitly kept the focus on them right through this.

    Parent
    Actually, Gandhi-esque & Mandela-esque (none / 0) (#40)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:04:50 PM EST
    In that way, the sentiments of the speech are America at its best.

    Parent
    Interesting WSJ article (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:10:34 PM EST
    detailing organization of original protest to avoid usual police crackdown.

    Sorry.  Not adept at linkage via Blackberry.

    facebook and twitter (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:13:54 PM EST
    have at long last justified their existence

    Parent
    I was just saying much the same (none / 0) (#29)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:54:02 PM EST
    thing to Mr. Z.  This was a largely peaceful overthrow of a government, accomplished by protesters armed mainly with Facebook and Twitter.

    Parent
    quite amazing (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:57:56 PM EST
    when you think about it.  and just a bit to late to be included in the movie.

    Parent
    I have to hope that other leaders (none / 0) (#44)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:23:56 PM EST
    were listening to the discussions, after Mubarak shut down the Internet, of just how incredibly dumb that was -- so that will not be attempted again.

    Several commentators credit that move with getting a lot of Egyptians out of their houses and onto the streets!

    Parent

    or not (none / 0) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:55:25 PM EST
    Iran is doing it right now.

    Parent
    China too (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:38:15 PM EST
    I just read where China has shut down any mention of Egypt. Internet, broadcasting or print.

    It's so important to keep the people in the dark. (Maybe that's why the Republicans are so opposed to public schools!)

    Thinking needs to be discouraged at all costs.

    Parent

    The China reaction (none / 0) (#51)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:48:32 PM EST
    Thanks for the info on China's reaction. Interestingly, my husband's reaction earlier today--when I was wondering about spill-over in the Arab world--was to query how China might react. When I asked why he singled that nation out first & foremost, he said: "The number of people in China."  

    Parent
    true (none / 0) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:52:03 PM EST
    but they know how to deal with this and they dont give a damn about US aid.  IMO this is the last place it might spread to.  sadly.

    Parent
    Tsk! "This is a day for Egypt" (none / 0) (#55)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 09:48:07 PM EST
    unquote.  Now, stop taking that worldview.

    Parent
    Yesterday is when I was listening (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 01:36:18 PM EST
    as no Al Jareera in car. Too bad.

    President Obama's speech was (none / 0) (#42)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:17:22 PM EST
    a well-crafted statement that provided a congratulatory and celebratory message to the Egyptian people on behalf of the American people.  Of course, as we all know, the next steps for the Egyptians will constitute continuing and great challenges. Hopefully, the words of President Obama will be  found to be a constructive backdrop to these challenges.

    However, the challenges are those for the Egyptians to resolve and while they will surely consider a range of advice and counsel in so doing, the "Beltway line going forward"  (for example see: Kenneth Pollack, an expert known for getting it wrong) is that changes desired will "take time"  and elections do not equate to democracy.

    It seems to me that  moving rapidly and striking while the iron is still hot outweighs overly cautious plodding, delay and re-entrenchment.  Just as the foreign policy experts argued, after the fall of the Berlin wall, for a long engagement before the marriage of East and West Germany, the German peoples decided to elope.  Mom and Dad were mad, it was not perfect at first, but the outcome was satisfactory.

    in fairness (none / 0) (#46)
    by CST on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:34:47 PM EST
    I wonder if East Germans would agree that "the outcome was satisfactory".

    I think they're still working that one out to some degree.

    Parent

    Agree with both statements: (none / 0) (#47)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:45:50 PM EST
    l. the outcome was satisfactory, and 2. they are still working that one out to some degree.  And, add 3. a process better than the alternatives then or now, and 4. they have Germans, not East Germans and West Germans (maybe Germans in the east and west, however)

    Parent
    Mubarak Resigns | 67 comments (67 topical)

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