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Friday Morning Open Thread

I will have time to write a substantive post this afternoon. Any topical requests?

Open Thread.

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    Here's two: (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by observed on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 07:53:52 AM EST
    I'd be really interested in your analysis of how the politics of the Wisconsin situation will play out in other states.
    Secondly, what should the US do about protests in other countries in the Middle East? Since the US more or less encouraged the protesters in Egypt, does that incur an obligation to stand behind protesters in, say, Libya, Bahrain or Iran?

    Did we encourage the protesters (none / 0) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:04:21 AM EST
    In Egypt?

    Parent
    really (none / 0) (#11)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:13:02 AM EST
    doenst that sort of undercut the "Obama did nothing" meme?

    Parent
    Is telling the military you outfitted (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:18:08 AM EST
    that they are in big trouble with you if they fire on protesters seeking Democracy "encouraging protesters".  They didn't tell the military to protect the protesters, only to not attack them.  To do anything different would mean cutting your own soul out with a hatchet though if you an elected leader of a democracy handing out bullets.  To me, it seems like the only we did is not burn our own souls to the ground :)

    Parent
    wow do i need coffee (none / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:19:24 AM EST
    It is very interesting (none / 0) (#3)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:07:04 AM EST

    In Iran, Egypt, Libya, and the like there have been no elections at all, or sham elections.

    In contrast, the mobs in Wisconsin are trying to frustrate the will of the people as expressed in this past November's election.

    Parent

    What about the Democrats (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:11:16 AM EST
    that the voters put into office that have gone on strike too?  Aren't they the elected will of the people too?

    Parent
    now that the (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:12:25 AM EST
    people see what they elected I am more interested in the next election

    Parent
    I think they are too :) (none / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:13:21 AM EST
    They have fled the state to (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:39:43 AM EST
    keep from being compelled to do their sworn duty.

    They should go, debate and vote.

    Parent

    an I am sure they will (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:41:25 AM EST
    once the people have had their little street party.

    Parent
    I just watched some guy (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:47:42 AM EST
    yelling at the striking teachers that they were all AWOL.  And now so are the Senators Jim?  I love you Jim, and I know that you know that the military isn't a democracy but you do understand that the democracy is not a military right?

    Parent
    Hugs to you, too, MT (2.00 / 1) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:30:35 AM EST
    but doing your sworn duty, be you a military type or a WI State Democrat Senator is the right thing to do.

    Unless you want a CM and a tour of duty in the stockade or be arrested by the police.

    Parent

    I know it is the right thing to do (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:32:17 AM EST
    but it isn't the left thing to do Jim :)

    Parent
    I have mixed feelings about the teacher thing (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:52:07 AM EST
    I totally get it and I totally agree but it is going to pi$$ off a lot of people.

    Parent
    It totally screws (2.00 / 1) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:58:32 AM EST
    working class families who now must find and pay for child care.

    All so that the teachers can ignore the law.

    Parent

    The routines are not more (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:01:49 AM EST
    important than any certain group of people and what they need too.  Democracy is messy, children and parents who live like sheep and can't deal with adversity are weak of mind and spirit.

    Parent
    The teachers went on strike (none / 0) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:55:09 AM EST
    when I was in grade school.  I loved my teacher then, Mr. Mays.  He went on strike though and gave a substitute teacher a temporary job.  And I would go to the fence on the playground sometimes and stare at him out there, afraid he was never coming back.  He would smile at me, and he came back :)

    Parent
    the thing is I am afraid all (none / 0) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:57:47 AM EST
    some people will come away from it with is the fact that they had to stay home from work or get daycare for their kids.

    selfish and stupid but there it is.

    Parent

    Such problems are always there (none / 0) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:04:40 AM EST
    for parents though.  Kids get sick, providers have issues...get sick....go broke.  It is all in a days work and stress for all parents already.  Our parents and grandparents had stronger stuffing, they survived this sort of thing just fine and if we can't...well no wonder we are now this nation of lazy phata$$e$ that we are :)

    Parent
    I think our kids will be just fine (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:58:51 AM EST
    And they will learn something about standing up, and it creates a deeper resilience in them too.  They will see all these people stand up for who they are and what they need, and they will see life return to normalcy again.  They will find out that the whole world will not burn down in the process of people taking of themselves.

    Parent
    The "exit strategy" (none / 0) (#182)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:53:06 PM EST
    Yes, it could upset a lot of people. And--if carried out with a graceful way back to the classrooms, etc.--it could heighten awareness, engender respect for the public employees and teachers as people, set the stage for later negotiations on related matters.  

    Here's hoping that the protagonists have thought about the maneuver to the next phase. (For example: I've heeard that the teachers have penned clear letters of explanation to the parents in advance of the action.) When I heard of the Democrats' leavetaking yesterday--in a replay variation of the 1993 Texas Dems disappearance wherein ol' Delay had Bush II send out the FBI--one of the sweet feelings was that there had been good aforethought aplenty.

    Parent

    Plus (none / 0) (#183)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    I also wonder what the state of play with Republican reps in Wisc. really is? Are any of them in marginals (won by 2% or less districts, say) that could swing next cycle if there are enough determined voters in their district to get out there in 2012? If that is so, then the sheer numbers demonstrating with gusto and peacefully might by a bit persuasive to a few of them? I understand that there are 19 Republicans and 14 Democrats in the determining State legislative body? Anyone with Wisconsin political info?

    Parent
    Correct re numbers in state senate (none / 0) (#191)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:29:12 PM EST
    and there are FB sites organizing for recalls of some Repub legislators, plus I read that organizing is beginning for recalling the governor although he is protected by law for a year.  (He has been in office for less than two months.)

    How precarious some of those legislative seats are, I don't know.  I doubt it.  Wisconsin is where the Republican Party began and remains very red other than in Milwaukee and Madison, the two largest cities.  So state totals may look closer overall.

    Parent

    Read up: Debate not allowed (none / 0) (#138)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:37:39 AM EST
    nor even the usual round of hearings around the state.  The Repubs wanted to ram this through -- that is, some Repubs such as chairs of committees.

    A couple of wiser Repubs also have abdicated in concern for the rush to judgment on the bill.  But the governor has not issued arrest warrants for them as he has for the Dems.  Why not, Jim?

    Parent

    Because they are Repubs (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:04:57 PM EST
    Good grief, Towanda. Must I explain everything?

    ;-)

    Parent

    No one has gone on strike (none / 0) (#68)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:23:13 AM EST
    in Wisconsin.  No one.

    Parent
    So they are all AWOL (none / 0) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:30:15 AM EST
    They have no right to do this, are just not showing up to work and they can all be fired for it no questions asked?

    Parent
    Of course not. Jeez. (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:16:33 AM EST
    Some workers have sick days.  Some have vacation days.  Some have furlough days.  Some are night-shift workers protesting during the day, some are day workers doing so at night (teachers piled on buses after school).  Some have some autonomy in their hours and some of their workload so teach their classes or do their meetings or whatever and march in between.  Etc.

    Parent
    Reading more: Some school districts (none / 0) (#140)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:39:26 AM EST
    also already did not have school scheduled yesterday or today, as usual at the end of a quarter.  But you have to read that in other than the main mainstream paper in the state, which is in Walker's pocket, btw.

    Parent
    So what either way.... (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:44:04 AM EST
    The kids are learning more civics in two days of no school than they would in a month in a classroom.

    The teachers should be getting time and a half right now for this lesson.

    Parent

    And as for massive protests coming (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:44:03 AM EST
    on Monday, I read, by which time the governor expected all of this to already be rammed through:  Monday is a mandated furlough day for many state workers (and most already are in Madison), and it is a statewide holiday in Illinois, which sent support and supporters immediately this week and is organizing for many more on Monday.

    But with the governor issuing an arrest warrant today on the Dem state senators, and with his tea-partiers planning massive counter-portests this weekend, who knows what could happen by Monday.

    However, as in Egypt, the point to remember is that the protests have been entirely peaceful so far.  If the tea partiers come in like camels this weekend, let's remember the lessons learned just a few weeks ago from Cairo as to who is who.

    Parent

    "come in like camels" LOL (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:21:26 AM EST
    Oh what an image Mubarak inadvertantly provided.  Pitch perfect short hand.

    Parent
    Well hopefully he won't pull out (none / 0) (#168)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:39:17 AM EST
    the National Guard tanks :)

    Parent
    AAA (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:15:44 AM EST
    in the latter event, people are exercising their 1st Amendment right to ask for redress for their grievences, not to overturn the results of the November election.

    You aren't really someone leftover from the Cold War who was in deep cover for the Soviets, are you?

    Because you're starting to sound like a Communist, whether you know it or not.

    Parent

    New rule: If Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:20:18 AM EST
    win the election, you can only exercise your right to ask for redress at the next regularly scheduled election.  

    Parent
    Mobs? LOL (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:19:15 AM EST
    The only mob is see is a union busting mob...in the street are free people trying to stop their rights from being stripped from them.

    Parent
    Come on man (1.50 / 2) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:51:33 AM EST
    A mob is a mob is a mob.

    What I see are people pulling a strike.

    Time to fire and rehire.

    Parent

    and this ladies and gentlemen (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:52:49 AM EST
    is the problem

    Parent
    The problem is that (2.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:56:38 AM EST
    the supporters of the unions, Democrats, lost the election and now do not want to follow the law.

    Remember. WI does not have the power to print money. It is either fire people, reduce pay or raise taxes.

    The Governor was elected to not raise taxes.

    Again. The Democrats lost. They need to man up and start planning on how to win the next election.

    What they are doing now is electing Repubs.

    Parent

    There was no financial crisis (none / 0) (#136)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:35:02 AM EST
    in Wisconsin until Walker created one.
    In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state's budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

    To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker's new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the "crisis" would not exist.


    (Emphasis mine)

    Link

    Parent

    You c'mon... (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:05:55 AM EST
    What I see is glorious.

    Sh*t man I owe a fair amount of my easy living to those that have striked before me...how could I knock it? I owe.  We owe.

    They've given their students a valuable education the last two days...who would dream of firing such educators setting such a fine example for the youth.

    Parent

    Re: Laws broken (none / 0) (#81)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:33:27 AM EST

    now do not want to follow the law.

    I refer you to the 1st Amendment, PPJ, assembling peacefully for redress of grievances isn't against the law in America, the last time I checked.

    Parent

    Uh, the right to assemble (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:37:45 AM EST
    doesn't say that you can not be fired for failing to show up on your job.

    So they don't want to follow the law they agreed to when they took the job.

    Parent

    Yes, but unless you're telepathic (none / 0) (#90)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:45:00 AM EST
    you don't know whether any of the demonstrators did, indeed, 'failed to show up for work'(i.e., flaking) or instead called in sick(which I imagine all of them did), so they wouldn't commit a firing offense.

    So they don't want to follow the law they agreed to when they took the job.

    I doubt that there is a specific law stating that it's illegal for a state worker to flake on a working day per se or call in sick, but then I like the fact that you use your imagination instead of sticking to the facts as usual.

    Parent

    We shall see huh? (none / 0) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:49:15 AM EST
    If there is anything I've learned in (none / 0) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:50:34 AM EST
    my adulthood, it is that the existing reality of any situation at this time is what is enforced.

    Parent
    People like you are the reason people (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by observed on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:06:29 AM EST
    like them need to strike.
    Strikes create belief in unions the same way cancer creates belief in god (for some people).

    Parent
    huh? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:07:48 AM EST
    You need some fear of God, CH? (none / 0) (#58)
    by observed on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:09:13 AM EST
    no (none / 0) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:10:42 AM EST
    thank you.
    and I would suggest that what creates belief in unions is not strikes but membership.

    Parent
    All you need to believe in unions... (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:24:55 AM EST
    is to look at union wages and bennies vs. ummm....my wages and bennies:)

    Case Closed!

    Parent

    And I would submit (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:53:58 AM EST
    that what creates belief in unions is not membership but results.  And a memory longer than an half a generation.

    Parent
    NOT A STRIKE. (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:08:28 AM EST
    Workers exercising their contractual rights for days off -- or their imposed furlough days -- and  workers on their lunch hour or work breaks, workers coming to the square after work, workers on night shift coming to the square during the day, etc.

    You need to find a totalitarian country, where you will be much happier.  Wisconsinites -- and not just in Madison but protesting across the state, where it must be too much work for reporters to go -- are refusing to allow their totalitarian governor to ram through sweeping legislation without the usual hearings around the state.

    Even some Repub legislators there have a problem with the governor's rush to ram through his bill, but you're fine with his tactics.  Enough said.

    Parent

    jimakappj's "mob" (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:13:22 PM EST
    A suggestion: A sad history lesson on how far some have taken the "fire and rehire" approach that you mention can be seen in the nightmare scene of Ludlow, Colorado.  In the winter of 1913, the Colorado Governor order the guard out (along with Co Fuel & Iron thugs) to fire on workers who were asking for food money...they fired on the mine workers, women & children. So that they could rehire (scabs) they fired on the women & children. It has long been known as the Ludlow Massacre.

    Cavalier characterizations of people exercising their First Amendment rights as "mobs" together with quips about "fire" & "rehire" harken to a sadder reality than some might think.

    Parent

    Oh please (none / 0) (#197)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:47:20 PM EST
    spare me the straw men.

    The teachers aren't starving and the guv aint gonna shoot them.


    Parent

    You seem to think (none / 0) (#201)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 04:24:44 PM EST
    that things happen in a vacuum.  The point is that those collective bargaining rights were hard won and at great cost.

    You don't just throw that away.  Is it really that hard for you to extrapolate?

    Parent

    As if a "mob" (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:53:17 AM EST
    isn't composed of people. With a will.  I'd say they have a rather strong will.

    ...the mobs in Wisconsin are trying to frustrate the will of the people...

    As for this:

    ...as expressed in this past November's election.

    Was union busting on the ballot in November?  

    Parent

    should they (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:11:27 AM EST
    be arrested you think?

    Parent
    That's a big jail we'll be needing (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:12:52 AM EST
    I think we might need to build a bigger one.  Republicans call that stimulus :)

    Parent
    if you have the stomach (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:16:30 AM EST
    I encourage you to watch the clips of the union busting on morning joe this morning. I have two things to say to joe.
    1st
    when I worked for Disney for 6 years I did not pay a penny into my health care plan.  why?  because we had a union.
    and
    2nd
    I would like to know how much joe pays into HIS health care plan.

    Parent
    You didn't pay on your HC plan (2.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:48:51 AM EST
    because Disney needed to offer you that perk to keep you, and others, as employees. It also had the profit available to allow them to pay it.

    In WI the employers, the state citizens, decided that they were paying the state employees too much and that they won't increase taxes to fund what the state employees want.

    The voters elected a Governor who ran to do what he is doing. He must either reduce spending or raise taxes. The vast majority do not want taxes raised.

    That's called democracy.

    In the meantime the teachers are demonstrating, calling in sick when they are not, in short they have called an illegal strike.

    Madison looks like Athens, Greece.

    What a great example to their students. "The laws don't count."

    I opine that their are hundreds of thousands of WI citizens who would dearly love to have to only pay around 5% on their retirement and 12% of their health care insurance.

    Parent

    Disney "offered" that perk (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:53:32 AM EST
    because somewhere along the line a union negotiated for it.  Unions are the only reason why HC perks, vacation time, sick time, holiday pay or overtime pay exist in the first place.

    Once union workers had those benefits, non-union shops had to add them so they could "keep" their employees.  

    Really, how do people forget this?  (And why is it so hard to retain the benefits that people lost their lives winning?)

    Disney didn't come up with that idea all on their own so they could "keep" their employees.  Cripes.

    Parent

    precisely (none / 0) (#149)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:54:48 AM EST
    if fact the busted heads in the original "negotiations"

    Parent
    THE SCREEN ACTOR MAGAZINE 1941 (none / 0) (#155)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:01:44 AM EST
    STRIKE AT DISNEY

    Screen Cartoon Guild walks out on Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, as SAG and other unions pledge support of cartoonists' colorful picket line at Burbank Studio

    It was something different: The New York newspaper PM tabbed the placard-carrying marchers in front of the home of Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck "the most unique picket line in labor's history"; Dorothy Parker wired that she had always wondered if Mickey was a mouse or a rat; signs from the skilled and expensive drawing boards of artists capable of producing "Fantasia" quipped, "Tain't cricket to pass a picket"..."First degree from Harvard; second came from Yale; my fellows get the third degree; but get it in the tail"...

    It was something fundamentally the same: a young labor union, recognized by the NLRB, but encountering all of the evasions and opposition possible on the part of a management determined not to be unionized; a patient group of union members, with patience finally snapped by mass discharges decimating their working ranks; a union striking for recognition, a Guild shop, adequate wages.

    I encourage you to read the whole thing

    Parent

    I definitely will (none / 0) (#157)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:05:56 AM EST
    when I get some time in the next day or two.  Thanks!

    Parent
    I actually have to work today (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:21:35 AM EST
    but a quick story.
    when I came to disney in 1995 CG (computer graphics) artists were still not in the union.  there were two categories.  animator (in the union) and TA (technical artist NOT in the union).  I was hired as a TA.  one of my friends was hired as an Animator.  we sat next to each other working on the same project.  the original test for what became the movie Dinosaur.  but he got a whole host of benefits that I did not.   I and two others (the crew was very small at this point for this movie but eventually grew to over 200) became the union test case.
    it went on for a while and eventually came to a head.  but a bit of background is necessary.

    when I was hired there I was doing very well. I had been at Digital Domain for two years and could have gone to a dozen other places when I left.  digital film art was in its infancy and those of us who were lucky enough to get in on the ground floor were being literally fought over by studios.  I thought the Dinosaur project sounded amazing but I hated Disney and most Disney movies.  and still do.  but the project was a ground breaker.  
    so
    when I was interviewed at Disney it was really more like I was interviewing them.  I dont mean that as a brag it was really just the state of that particular job market at that particular time.  but I made every one of the 10 or so people I was interviewed by SWEAR that they would not talk.  "you have to swear this to me".
    they did.  and they believed it.  it was the plan.
    they Eisner saw the finished test about 8 months later (while all the union stuff was simmering) and announce they HAD to talk.
    I was PI$$ED  and that doesnt really cover it.  in my mind I had just signed a three year contract to work on a just another stupid disney movie when I could have done anything in LA I wanted to do.  I wanted out.  they would not let me out. threatening me with not letting me work if I left.
    so
    when it came time for negotiations I asked to be allowed to be the spokesperson. "let me do it" I said. "I want to be the target".  they did.
    we got a document signed by every TA in the studio.  about 35 by that point.  that we would walk if they did not give us union benefits.  and we totally would have.  
    the "negotiations" day came.  me and two others walked into a disney conference room to face about 10 Disney lawyers with a guy in a 3000 dollar turquoise suit leading the charge.
    we wouldnt even countenance discussion.  I said "you give us what we want or we are walking" they recessed for 20 minutes an totally caved.  all cg artists are full union members now.  and some how I managed to stay employed there for another 5 years

    true story I swear to god.


    Parent

    ps (none / 0) (#164)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:23:48 AM EST
    it was the most fun I ever had with my clothes on

    Parent
    My hat's off to you (none / 0) (#169)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:00:18 PM EST
    Animators, I remember from my busier scriptwriting daze, were just screwed by their non-membership, as were the writers on animated shows not being in the WGA.  Love how fast those phuckers caved.  They probably expected you to see all those suits in the conference room and get weak in the knees.  Always did the opposite for me, I just wanted to rip them new ones.  Did a few times, but I wasn't as fortunate to keep a job.  As a writer, I had to sit through meeting with producers so insecure and lacking social skills that I would literally get up in the middle of meetings (which were really just long arguments where I got yelled at) and say "Look, I have a contract, I'm doing the work, you have to pay me, but I wasn't hired to be a punching bag for your social disorders, and when you decide to stop yelling and act like a human being I'll be back.  In the meantime, I need to go talk up your cute receptionist for a few minutes and kill this urge I have rignt now to take the gas pipe."  I'd leave, come back in five minutes, and then we'd continue.  They hated it so much, and I just loved it.  

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#180)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:47:28 PM EST
    dont really personally deserve much credit.  I wanted them to fire me.  of course they knew that and no way they were going to.  and we were a completely united front.  were were mostly friends even before we came there.  it was a small industry at that time and it would have taken any one of us about 20 minutes to get another job.  and only that long because most people did not have cell phones yet.

    sadly I believe the writers continued to be screwed for some time after that.  I think some of their grievances were eventually addressed but I didnt keep up with it.

    Parent

    Of course Disney didn't (none / 0) (#174)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:16:49 PM EST
    come up with it on their own.

    Employer provided health insurance flowered during WWII and after.

    And people who worked for the government made less than those who worked for private companies.

    Thanks have changed, eh??

    I just saw on FNC that the average teacher in WI makes $51K salary and $39K benefits....(approximate can't remember exact numbers)

    That's way more, about $30K more than the average non-government worker.

    Now. See why the disagreements exist?

    Parent

    Really? You're going to go there? (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:22:23 PM EST
    The average teacher used to have 4 years of college - now they have 5. The average worker usually has little, if any college.

    Check this out for actual facts - not from FAUX News.

    But when we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation than comparable private sector workers. The comparisons--controlling for education, experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability--demonstrate that full-time state and local public employees earn lower wages and receive less in total compensation (including all benefits) than comparable private sector employees.

    Why does it appear otherwise?  Both nationally and within Wisconsin, public sector workers are significantly more educated than their private sector counterparts. Nationally, 54% of full-time state and local public sector workers hold at least a four-year college degree, compared with 35% of full-time private sector workers. In Wisconsin, the difference is even greater: 59% of full-time Wisconsin public sector workers hold at least a four-year college degree, compared with 30% of full-time private sector workers.



    Parent
    Life is cruel (none / 0) (#176)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:29:52 PM EST
    And when I see a study with "qualifiers" my BS detector goes off in a loud and steady wail.

    When your specialty prices itself out of the market, it prices itself out of the market.

    Also, I remember an old saying that applies.

    "I'm so broke that if Cadillacs were selling for a nickel I couldn't afford a hubcap."

    People are tired of seeing government employees making out better than them. That may not be fair, but it is factual.

    Parent

    Jim (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:36:41 PM EST
    If you want to say that someone with a 4 or 5 (and usually more) year degree doesn't deserve $55,000 a year, but someone with a high school diploma does, I don't think you're going to find anyone to agree with you.

    I'm not sure how that's "pricing you out of the market" - in fact, since most states require a degree (and background checks, etc.) to be a full-time teacher, I'd say that's a specialty and they should be paid MORE.  

    Oh wait - here's an example:

    Pay teachers like babysitters!  (I don't know what the average rate for babysitters are, but for ease, let's say $5 an hour - which is lower than minimum wage).

    Take 25 kids in a class (also a very conservative number)

    Times 6 hours per day (we won't worry about silly things like the fact that teachers work more than 6 hours a day, including taking work home, or having parent meetings or such)

    Times 180 days per school year.

    $5 x 25 x 6 x 180 = $135,000!

    Wow!  At $54,000, the state is really getting a bargain because they are paying teachers less than a babysitter would get and they actually get TEACHING out of them too!

    Parent

    What I am saying is that (none / 0) (#196)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:44:44 PM EST
    people making a dollar and hour can't afford to hire someone making $2 an hour.

    Now, maybe we should get some foreign aid for Wisconsin so they can afford the teachers.

    Or maybe the teachers should be willing to be part of the society they live in.

    Parent

    or maybe wisconsin (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by CST on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 03:00:34 PM EST
    should, you know, not cut taxes creating a budget shortfall.

    The money was there.  They chose to give it away to someone else.

    Parent

    Hey Jim (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 03:23:10 PM EST
    I've told you before that sometimes I think you get uneccessarily nailed, but frankly with this comment, it seems like you want to cut teachers' salaries because, you know, anyone could do the job, right?

    God help us if we cut salaries so we get someone with your incredibly weak logic skills teaching our kids.

    We might as well start learning Chinese and domestic skills to serve our Chinese masters now....

    Parent

    I get caught from both sides (none / 0) (#200)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 04:13:06 PM EST
    You should see me at the local Tea Party meeting stating I'm pro choice and want the drug laws reformed...

    Anyway... My point is simple. The differences between the private and the government employees are out of whack. And the government side is in the lead. What the WI Guv wants is very modest and very reasonable.

    And no. Government employees should not bargain with their employers and then be allowed to give them money.

    And yes. Teaching is a tough job and should be rewarded reasonably. The problem is that the results of their work has been poor for quite some time. Money has been poured into education. The results have not been acceptable.

    That makes the public unhappy. And the public is the employer.

    Parent

    "health insurance flowered" (none / 0) (#181)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:51:42 PM EST
    Planted, watered and nurtured by unions.  

    Parent
    "there are hundreds..." (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:50:03 AM EST
    Um, no. The governor decided on his (none / 0) (#52)
    by observed on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:04:42 AM EST
    own to attack the benefits of state employees.
    In fact, I read that he did not discuss doing this while campaigning.
    I see 35,000 people expressing their opinion versus 1 governor. Who's being democratic?

    Parent
    It's not even the benefit cuts (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:30:43 AM EST
    Most of the people I've seen interviewed said they don't like the idea of benefit cuts, but they know the reality of the situation. It's more about the fact that the governor wants to eliminate the right of collective bargaining for state employees.

    THAT's what's got them so ticked off.

    Parent

    As the NYT editorial states, (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:38:59 AM EST
    Governor Walker has decried the crisis, but it was entirely self-inflicted.   His plan to undermine the unions, which would have no direct impact on the budget, would take away nearly all of their rights to negotiate.  He decided a budget crisis was a good time to advance an ideological goal dear to his fellow Republicans: eliminating most collective bargaining rights for public employees.

    Parent
    Add to that (none / 0) (#190)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:28:00 PM EST
    a comparison where a state budget seems to be approached in a way to minimize further burden for the middle class, etc.  Check the approach of Minnesota's Governor Dayton (D) who, I understand, plans to more than cover a substantial budget shortfall not on the backs of teachers & public employees, but--get this--by minimally increasing state tax on individuals making more than $1Million.

    Parent
    70,000 taking his huge pay cuts (none / 0) (#150)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:54:55 AM EST
    as state workers in Wisconsin are not being heard; many of them are not at all sanguine about the cuts.

    But they are being drowned out by more than 100,000 more other public workers in Wisconsin (municipal workers, school district workers, etc.) who are not getting hit with his pay cuts but also are getting hit with his attack on collective bargaining rights.

    Parent

    He ran on not raising taxes (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:34:59 AM EST
    Maybe he should just fire a bunch of employees and keep the rest. That would allow the budget to be balanced, which is required by law.

    Wait! He can't fire them because they have tenure, etc.

    Parent

    Re: Looks like (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:39:58 AM EST

    Madison looks like Athens, Greece.

    Really, there was rioting, destruction of property, physical violence, fighting, etc?

    You should move somewhere where 'mobs' and demonstrations aren't allowed, like the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, if you can't stand the sight of people asserting their 1st Amendment rights on American soil who aren't Tea Partiers.

    :-)

    Parent

    Yeh, that's why parents bring babies (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:18:26 AM EST
    and toddlers to the protests, to put them in danger of those rioting mobs of other parents and babies and toddlers!

    However, Madison could get rough this weekend; the call is out for the tea-partiers, the governor's supporters, to come there.

    Parent

    Just watch how Republicans will (none / 0) (#144)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:46:40 AM EST
    see nothing wrong with shutting down the federal government because they did not get their way on budget cuts.  Old-timers not getting their social security, disabled without their checks, Medicare and Medicaid providers not paid, etc.   All will be fine, after all they were elected to cut and slash.

    Parent
    Perhaps the dedicated (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:09:27 PM EST
    government workers will come to work and make sure us old timers get our SocSec checks.

    You think????

    Parent

    Maybe some will, if the Republicans (none / 0) (#178)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:36:57 PM EST
    permit them to, and turn on the lights, heat and computers.  But, the Republican wingers are not likely to since they want to make their stand no matter how irresponsible their actions are.  Gingrich is looking better every day, but only in comparison.

    Parent
    In a government shutdown, actually (none / 0) (#192)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:31:34 PM EST
    ...government employees will not be allowed to work (with the exception for security & protection.) My experience with Newt's shutdown--you know, the one that increased forevermore President Clinton's approval ratings--was that you could not even get in the door to your office.  

    Parent
    Athens, Greece (none / 0) (#115)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:09:35 AM EST
    The birthplace of democracy?

    Parent
    He's referring to the recent unrest (none / 0) (#122)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:19:14 AM EST
    there because of austerity measures taken by the government.

    Three Reported Killed in Greek Protests

    By DAN BILEFSKY

    ATHENS -- Swarms of violent groups overtook a general protest against austerity measures in the city center on Wednesday, lashing out at the government and security forces and hurling gasoline bombs that, according to the police, set fire to a bank building and killed three workers.

    The demonstration had drawn tens of thousands of people near the central square in front of Parliament as part of a general strike that paralyzed airline flights, ferries, schools and hospitals. It did not initially appear different from many other, mostly peaceful protests in recent months, as Greece's financial crisis has deepened and the likelihood of painful sacrifices has grown into a certainty.

    But among the demonstrators were subgroups of protesters who numbered in the hundreds -- mostly young and many clad in black, wearing hoods or masks and carrying helmets, wooden bats or hammers -- and whom the police and other demonstrators identified broadly as anarchists. They led efforts to storm the Parliament building, chanting "thieves, thieves," and hurling rocks and gasoline bombs. Some chased the ceremonial guards from the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in front of the building.

    The police responded with tear gas canisters that spread a choking pall over the crowd.

    Click or NY Times Me

    Yep, sounds just like what is going down in Madison, WI.  

    Parent

    Yep. I heard it in the grapevine ;-) (none / 0) (#171)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:07:16 PM EST
    Yes, I'm sure that Fox News (none / 0) (#185)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:11:49 PM EST
    'heard it through the grapevine' as well.  

    :-)

    Parent

    Yes, he actually COULD fire them (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:43:27 AM EST
    Of course, each one of them would be entitled to a little thing called "due process" and would have to get a hearing.

    You think parents will put up with all the teachers in their local school getting fired?

    Parent

    No, a governor cannot fire teachers (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:59:06 AM EST
    who do not work for the state.  He can go after a lot of state workers, of course, and a witch hunt is expected, when their due process will be tested.

    Most of the teachers at the protests do not work for the state.  And they are taking sick days that are part of their contracts with their school districts, or their schools already had no classes scheduled (the end of a quarter), or they are getting to Madison's own Tahrir Square in the late afternoon, after teaching all day.  Etc.

    But teachers are by no means most of the protesters -- and the schools closed for staffing shortages with so many teachers calling in sick are very few.

    Parent

    Not to mention... (none / 0) (#103)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:59:10 AM EST
    who wants their precious snowflake educated by a scab?

    Parent
    Since my local school district is (none / 0) (#173)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:11:02 PM EST
    so lousy we're spending about $6K a year to send our Grandson to a private school...

    Yes. Yes they (and we) will.

    Parent

    Stand off is very important Jim (none / 0) (#85)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:38:50 AM EST
    When finding the functioning balance of power.  You know this stuff Jim :)

    Parent
    Oops standoff (none / 0) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:39:09 AM EST
    GEEZUZ (none / 0) (#179)
    by cal1942 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:46:09 PM EST
    Republicans in Congress have been doing that for years.

    What was it, 132 filibusters or thereabouts in just one session.

    Parent

    yes (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:09:34 AM EST
    next question

    Parent
    WI please (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Swiggs on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:17:00 AM EST
    I'd like to hear BTD weigh in on WI.

    I have to run (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:20:22 AM EST
    Give me some background links and let me see if I can provide something worth reading.

    Parent
    Two more links on WI (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Swiggs on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:28:34 AM EST
    there is a reasonable good wrap up (none / 0) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:50:39 AM EST
    here

    Thousands protest anti-union bill in Wisconsin

    its AP but most of the important stuff is at least mentioned

    Parent

    NYT editorial today is better (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:21:09 AM EST
    at exposing that the Wisconsin goernor entirely manufactured the alleged "fiscal crisis" with bennies to his buddies; the state budget projection was in the black with a surplus a few weeks ago.

    And comments to the NYT editorial show how this is fallout from the Citizens United decision.

    Also, the AP has crucial facts wrong in this: "Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent."  That would not explain hundreds of thousands of state workers protesting statewide (not just in Madison).

    Under Walker's plan, state employees' contributions for pension and health insurance would increase so drastically that their take-home pay would be reduced by at least 8 percent, in addition to continuing 3 percent pay cuts ("furloughs"), and after years (three for some, five for others) without any raises.

    In effect, my friends there tell me, they already are taking home less than they did six years ago, and Walker's plan would put their take-home pay back to what it was a decade or more ago.

    That's the impact on 70,000 workers in the state -- as much as 10 percent of the families in the state.  In addition, the better-explained-by-AP attack on collective bargaining rights is a hit on 175,000 local and state public employees.


    Parent

    Easily Solved (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:31:31 AM EST
    What we need is simple, raise taxes a smidgen, but even the democrats have been deluded by the the fear of 'raising taxes', which is the obvious answer.

    All these budgets should be directly linked to the years tax rates.  Income, sales, property, whatever, when the budget is proposed, the estimated rates should be in the budget as well.  Then the people can see how programs directly effect them.  Any surplus/deficits created from inaccurate estimates would be included in the following years budget.  Never a surplus, nor a deficit of any meaningful significance, ever, which in my opinion is how governments should act.

    I was born and raised in WI, haven't lived there for 10 years, but I work in tax. Wisconsin has one of the lowest sales tax rates in the country, 5% state with some cities or counties have 1% at most (Milwaukee 5.6%), so it's rare to find a rate over 6%(tourist spots).  Ditto for property tax and income tax is low, but not one of the lowest only because all the broke-A states have no income tax.  Shocker, I know.

    Wisconsin, raise sales tax one half of one percent and we are done with this non-sense.  A $200 grocery purchase would cost $1 more, ta-da, budget crisis averted. No lost jobs and the retirement is safe.  

    Texas, where I reside has no state income tax, one tenth of a percent increase would hurt no one.  A $100,000 income would pay $100 in tax, whoopty-do, budget 'crisis' averted.

    For the Fed, link it to the corporate income tax, right now the max is at 35%, make it an adjustable rate, a one 1% rate increase would  give us huge surpluses.  No one benefits from the government more than corporations in the top bracket.  Global trading would be non-existent w/o the government, let them flip the bill for making their livelihood's possible.  An added benefit, salary increases would directly reflect their portion of the budget, increase salaries and individual income tax revenues increase, their tax base would decrease, both would ultimately decrease the adjustable rate.

    Nope, the dopes, D's & R's are hell bent on cutting purely political non-sense that is only going to reduce revenues as we spiral slowly out of super status power and make a lot of folks suffer along the way.

    It wouldn't hurt to stop starting indefinite wars in the Middle East because I don't feel safer, and they are bit expensive.

    Parent

    yes (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:22:13 AM EST
    probably so.  come to think of it I did not see the trumped up fiscal crisis in the other one and I did read that this morning.

    Parent
    The referenced NYT editorial (none / 0) (#117)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:11:30 AM EST
    makes the point that the benefits for Wisconsin state workers were not stolen--they were negotiated by elected officials and can be re-negotiated at the bargaining table if necessary.

    Parent
    Exactly. But the governor refuses (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:24:31 AM EST
    to negotiate.  Many state unions had offered huge concessions, and he refused to negotiate.  Then he came out with this draconian bill, demanding that it be passed immediately.  Repubs finally realized that there ought to be a hearing and held one with less than 24 hours' notice -- usually, such bills are the subject of many hearings around the state.

    This "budget repair bill" was supposed to be passed by the Repubs by yesterday, clearing the way for the governor to release next Tuesday his even worse bill for the upcoming budget biennium, per reports.

    That's why he's ticked at the Democratic state senators who left the state to slow him down.

    Parent

    Richard Trumka will address protesters (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:28:34 AM EST
    National AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka will address protesters at noon tomorrow in the Capitol

    Trumka will also "march in solidarity with Wisconsin workers and help prepare and deliver food to the crowds," according to a press release from the state AFL-CIO.

    From WisPolitics Budget Blog

    Parent

    Cool (none / 0) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:34:00 AM EST
    Unfortunately, this sort of support (none / 0) (#130)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:26:41 AM EST
    is helpful in getting attention, but to the rights of the non-state workers.  Their issues, their huge pay cuts in the governor's bill, are being buried.

    Another case study in how wider support for reform movements, how coalitions on some shared issues often dilute and then lose the core issues for the smaller group being targeted.  It was ever thus.

    Parent

    Cx: but NOT to the issues (none / 0) (#132)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:28:06 AM EST
    of the state workers, whose immediate pay cut hits -- and with no hope of crawling back out of the hole, with other provisions in the bill -- are being buried.

    Parent
    If you could explain... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:30:37 AM EST
    how in the world St. Johns isn't in the Top 25 right now that would be one less mystery:)

    But no matter, we will be after Pitt gets smoked tomorrow.

    Fricken sports (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:34:25 AM EST
    He's been busy and AWOL, and you show up requesting a sports write up.  And he will do it :)  But at least he can walk and chew gum, certainly he will provide writings about something meaningful too :)

    Parent
    The basketball mecca... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:51:52 AM EST
    rising from the ashes of a lost decade meaningless?  The World's Most Famous Arena hosting basketball games of importance featuring home teams meaningless? Surely you jest:)

    The masses need the opiate.

    Parent

    QOTD (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:39:07 AM EST
    actually I think it may be QO yesterday but whatever:

    "I am still thinking of leading this country. I am still thinking about it. I haven't made up my mind."
    -Sara Palin

    ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease

    An indecisive quitter...how attractive (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:50:06 AM EST
    She'll never be President.  She went AWOL the last time she had a sworn duty to uphold :)

    Parent
    she has to run (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:53:44 AM EST
    she MUST run.  she must be drafted to run.  without her 2012 just wont seem like the end of the world at all.

    Parent
    have you seen the lastest (none / 0) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:01:51 AM EST
    imbroglio?

    Sarah Palin Bats Michelle Obama Breastfeeding Initiative


    "No wonder Michelle Obama's telling everybody, 'you'd better breastfeed your baby.' Yeah, you'd better, because the price of milk is so high right now!
    "

    guess she hasnt seen this


    American Academy of Pediatrics
    2005 AAP Policy Statement of Breastfeeding and the Use of Human Milk

    sort of make you wonder if she is the mother of any of her kids.


    Parent

    I heard this morning (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:08:35 AM EST
    while I was waking up and I was thinking to myself about most well to do Republican women around me get implants :)  Boobs are not for milk, they are for keeping a hold on porn addicted husbands.  Feeding babies with them could ruin them :)  They actually had my daughter believing that breastfeeding would destroy the beauty of her boobs.  Like a baby will eat them right off of your chest and they will be all gone :)

    Parent
    I was wondering and maybe you can tell me (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:11:32 AM EST
    once implanted can you still breast feed?

    Parent
    They say you can (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:14:53 AM EST
    I don't know anyone who has done it though.  People so tranfixed by their own boobs and deeply treasuring them don't seem to let the kids play with them....ever

    Parent
    I asked this question on another site (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:16:12 AM EST
    @Capt Howdy: yes. i fed on a pair just the other night.

    Parent
    I pity the fool... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:05:31 AM EST
    I really do...ain't nothing like the real thing, and more than a handful is a waste:)

    Parent
    "anything (none / 0) (#116)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    more than a mouthful is wasted"

    Frank Zappa

    Parent

    Wow this conversation turned quickly! :) (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:13:47 AM EST
    Leave it to the dirty old man... (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:29:06 AM EST
    and his eager young apprentice:)

    Parent
    Dudes...thinking they must (none / 0) (#125)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:20:36 AM EST
    reassure the small breasted among us.  I was having lunch with my dad long ago, and he was going on that I got my good looks from him.  So I pointed to my chest and said, "Really?  Then splain this!"  He got a sly smile on his face and says, "They'll never sag!"

    Parent
    Bachmann disagrees with Palin, if (none / 0) (#63)
    by observed on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:15:54 AM EST
    I interpret her latest lunacy correctly.

    Parent
    She may not even (none / 0) (#80)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:32:18 AM EST
    Won't be an issue (none / 0) (#91)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:48:53 AM EST
    She would likely run as an independent and stay in for the duration, with the intention of selling more books and getting more speaker fees.

    Parent
    I don't see it (none / 0) (#111)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:02:59 AM EST
    If she can't get people in her own party to support her in a primary and think she can win, she certainly isn't going to win over independents.  We've seen her currency dive since the Tuscon tragedy.  And she needs to make up her mind soon, as the first Republican presidential debate is in 3 months.

    Parent
    You're viewing Palin (none / 0) (#184)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:08:21 PM EST
    from a political perspective. Palin is now a businesswoman first. As Palin (R) she's one of many. As Palin (I) she is totally in control til the end if she wants to run.

    Parent
    no idea if she favors an R or an I (none / 0) (#186)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:13:20 PM EST
    but I think she has absolutely no problem splitting the party.  that is one of her aces in the hole IMO.

    honestly I could see them giving it to her if Obama continues to look strong just because no one else could beat him (that does seem to be the bipartisan consensus now) and just to shut her up.

    I would guess the fear would be what it would do for down ticket races.  it would be bad.  for them not for us.

    Parent

    Except (none / 0) (#188)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:16:11 PM EST
    Every poll in the entire universe shows that Obama's best chance to win re-election is to go against Palin.  No poll shows her having a snowball's chance in he11 of winning.

    Parent
    that was sort of my point (none / 0) (#189)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:21:58 PM EST
    Capt., what about.... (none / 0) (#193)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:57:40 PM EST
    some strange alliance between Palin and Romney down the road? Since this is about speculation, and stranger things have happened.... The "alliance" would occur after Palin "milks" her political fans et al for as many $$$ as possible into early 2012, then decides to transfer her base in a bargain with someone who needs them. In many ways, Romney may be the most needy of all in the eerie world of Republican early primaries. He gets support from those who would not give the former MA healthcare-type governor & Utah Mormon a first look; and, she looks like a savvy power player (who can then go on to make more money as a female Rove for awhile.)  A nightmare in the making....

    Parent
    she has the nightmare thing covered (none / 0) (#194)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:05:52 PM EST
    not so sure about the rest.  Romney is a jagged pill for the teabaggers.  

    Parent
    as much as I hate the name (none / 0) (#195)
    by CST on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:30:17 PM EST
    Romneycare (because many of the important parts of the bill were passed over his veto, and the actual implementation of it happened under a Dem Gov, and this was all gonna pass without him anyway) - I do love to watch him try to squirm away from it :)

    What a sleezeball.

    Parent

    Would love to have some discussion (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:48:01 AM EST
    and analysis of the dismissal of Jose Padilla's lawsuit against the usual cast of characters - Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz - for a depressingly familiar set of reasons.

    Glenn has a post up about it today, which starts off, as follows:

    In March, 2002, American citizen Jose Padilla was arrested in Chicago and publicly accused by then-Attorney-General John Ashcroft of being "The Dirty Bomber."  Shortly thereafter, he was transferred to a military brig in South Carolina, where he was held for almost two years completely incommunicado (charged with no crime and denied all access to the outside world, including even a lawyer) and was brutally tortured, both physically and psychologically.  All of this -- including the torture -- was carried out pursuant to orders from President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld and other high-ranking officials.  Just as the Supreme Court was about to hear Padilla's plea to be charged or released -- and thus finally decide if the President has the power to imprison American citizens on U.S. soil with no charges of any kind -- the Government indicted him in a federal court on charges far less serious than Ashcroft had touted years earlier, causing the Supreme Court to dismiss Padilla's arguments as "moot"; Padilla was then convicted and sentenced to 17 years in prison.

    Padilla -- like so many other War on Terror detainees -- has spent years in American courts trying unsuccessfully to hold accountable the high-level government officials responsible for his abuse and lawless imprisonment (which occurred for years prior to his indictment).  Not only has Padilla (and all other detainees) failed to obtain redress for what was done to them, but worse, they have been entirely denied even the right to have their cases heard in court.  That's because the U.S. Government has invented -- and federal courts have dutifully accepted -- a whole slew of legal doctrines which have only one purpose:  to insulate the country's most powerful political officials from legal accountability even when they commit the most egregious crimes, such as imprisoning incommunicado and torturing an American citizen arrested and detained on U.S. soil.

    Yesterday, in South Carolina, an Obama-appointed federal judge dismissed a lawsuit brought by Padilla against former Bush officials Donald Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft, Paul Wolfowitz and others.  That suit alleges that those officials knowingly violated Padilla's Constitutional rights by ordering his due-process-free detention and torture.  In dismissing Padilla's lawsuit, the court's opinion relied on the same now-depressingly-familiar weapons routinely used by our political class to immunize itself from judicial scrutiny:  national security would be undermined by allowing Padilla to sue; "government officials could be distracted from their vital duties to attend depositions or respond to other discovery requests"; "a trial on the merits would be an international spectacle with Padilla, a convicted terrorist, summoning America's present and former leaders to a federal courthouse to answer his charges"; the litigation would risk disclosure of vital state secrets; and "discovery procedures could be used by our enemies to obtain valuable intelligence."

    No one's probably as interested in this as they are about Wisconsin, but just thought I would offer up an idea.

    Oh yeah, how about a discussion of the (none / 0) (#53)
    by observed on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:05:24 AM EST
    report on the anthrax case?


    Parent
    HBGary, Wikileaks and Anonymouns article please (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by magster on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:24:59 AM EST
    Outlining the crimes and civil torts that BofA and Chamber of Commerce could be exposed to.

    Yes, that's a juicy subject (none / 0) (#135)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:34:39 AM EST
    and it demonstrates why you don't want to get into a pissing match with Anonymous in the first place:

    Internet vigilante group Anonymous turned its sights on security firm HBGary on Sunday evening in an attempt to "teach [HBGary] a lesson you'll never forget." The firm had been working with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to unmask members of Anonymous following the group's pro-WikiLeaks attacks on financial services companies, and was prepared to release its findings next week.

    HBGary had been collecting information about Anonymous members after the group's DDoS attacks on companies perceived to be anti-WikiLeaks. The firm had targeted a number of senior Anonymous members, including a US-based member going by the name of Owen, as well as another member known as Q. In addition to working with the FBI (for a fee, of course), HBGary's CEO Aaron Barr was preparing to release the findings this month at a security conference in San Francisco.

    Anonymous, however, felt that HBGary's findings were "nonsense" and immediately retaliated--but this time with something other than a DDoS attack. Instead, Anonymous compromised the company's website, gained access to the documents that HBGary had collected on its members, and published more than 60,000 of HBGary's e-mails to BitTorrent. They also vandalized Barr's Twitter and LinkedIn accounts with harsh messages and personal data about Barr, such as his social security number and home address.

    "We've seen your internal documents, all of them, and do you know what we did? We laughed. Most of the information you've `extracted' is publicly available via our IRC networks," Anonymous wrote in a statement posted to HBGary's site on Sunday. "So why can't you sell this information to the FBI like you intended? Because we're going to give it to them for free."

    Click or Ars Technica Me

    Parent

    wonderful (none / 0) (#141)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:40:10 AM EST
    I was nodding my head in agreement (none / 0) (#161)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:21:30 AM EST
    until I saw that they published the personal information.  They could have accomplished their goal without publicly compromising his SSN and his family.  

    Unless he lives alone.  Then I have to ponder whether or not I care that his home address was published.

    Parent

    I'd like you to write a post about (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by tworivers on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:23:21 AM EST
    how the Yankees will come in 3rd in the AL East this year ;)

    Hmm, (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:08:41 AM EST
    In your opinion, does the "Sanford" provision of the stimulus allow the FL legislature to accept HSR money by joint resolution?

    That's PL 111-5 §1607(b) (PDF):

    ACCEPTANCE BY STATE LEGISLATURE.--If funds provided to any State in any division of this Act are not accepted for use by the Governor, then acceptance by the State legislature, by means of the adoption of a concurrent resolution, shall be sufficient to provide funding to such State.


    Worth a look (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:18:29 AM EST
    Language seems plain enough.

    Parent
    Only catch I can think of (none / 0) (#23)
    by andgarden on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:22:18 AM EST
    is that the two year mark was yesterday, and so the funds vaporized. I'm actually a little confused by why they wouldn't have (i.e., how is the Administration still making stimulus grants?)

    Parent
    How about state law? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:24:33 AM EST
    I do not know how the time passed affects this, but I do think the question of the ability of a state legislature to act in this fashion is going to be a state law issue.

    Parent
    Well, to the extent state law conflicts (none / 0) (#26)
    by andgarden on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:29:32 AM EST
    I would say that this provision may serve to preempt it. But then you have a potential federalism problem. . .

    As for passed time: isn't there a general principle that Congress can't appropriate money beyond two years?

    Parent

    The governor just issued (none / 0) (#123)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:20:18 AM EST
    the warrant for the state patrol to arrest the Democratic state senators still in the state -- and that also allows the state patrol to request the assistance of Illinois for those who are there.

    Illinois had refused to assist in extradition yesterday, saying that a warrant was required.

    Parent

    On what basis? (none / 0) (#126)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:22:13 AM EST
    Not showing up for a vote?

    Parent
    I was wondering that too (none / 0) (#129)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:25:51 AM EST
    but there must be a reason they fled.
    and its happened before.  a few years ago in texas.

    Parent
    I want to request (none / 0) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:09:26 AM EST
    a writing about judge Judge Robert Grossman's ruling that MERS has no right to transfer mortgages.  How do you see that affecting the foreclosure crisis?

    That's in my wheelhouse (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:18:01 AM EST
    And I was going to write about that this weekend anyway.

    So "request granted" so to speak.

    But I'll write something else this afternoon.

    The Wisconsin thing may be beyond me.

    Parent

    its becoming quite (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:22:33 AM EST
    relevant to the healthcare reform discussion.  I heard several times this morning something along the lines of "unions must be forced to make the same cuts business has been forced to make in things like health care plans".

    maybe we should be talking about WHY businesses have been forced to do that and not race to the lowest common denominator.


    Parent

    Yeah... (none / 0) (#137)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:36:32 AM EST
    like Gov. Christie crying it costs 24 grand to insure a state workers family.  Instead of looking to state workers to turn their pockets inside out, he should be asking why it costs 24 freakin' large for family coverage.

    I mean seriously...who is robbin' who here?

    Parent

    WI please (none / 0) (#21)
    by Swiggs on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:19:59 AM EST
    I'd like to hear BTD weigh in on WI.

    Stanford's suit (none / 0) (#46)
    by Webb on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 08:58:17 AM EST
    How about comments on Stanfords lawsuit against SEC and other Feds. Most Americans do not know the power that can be wielded by Prosecutors to seize your assetts to prevent defense of charges. Webb

    are you ready for a (none / 0) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:15:20 AM EST
    brain teaser?  FYI 90% of preschoolers gave the right answer.

    which way is the bus traveling?  left or right.


    That's easy (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by me only on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:01:19 AM EST
    Neither.  The bus is stationary.  It is not traveling.

    If the question had been asked, what direction is the bus facing, then the answer would be either left or right.

    And yes, pollsters hate me.

    Parent

    cowards (none / 0) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:20:13 AM EST
    btw
    I blew it.

    Parent
    left (none / 0) (#70)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:24:59 AM EST
    you googled (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:25:11 AM EST
    I didn't (none / 0) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:25:51 AM EST
    I swear

    Parent
    I was actually afraid to get (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:26:51 AM EST
    it right, like I have the undeveloped brain of a preschooler.  I can't tell you why it is going left though, only that it seems like it is.

    Parent
    ah (none / 0) (#95)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:51:29 AM EST
    perfect


    Parent
    and do you know why you know (none / 0) (#94)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:51:10 AM EST
    why know its going left? (which I dont doubt)

    dont tell me and spoil it for others.

    Parent

    I don't know (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:53:04 AM EST
    I just looked at it and my brain told me it was going left.  I tried to look more closely at the detail but couldn't really see why either.  It's probably something very simple and obvious too.

    Parent
    want me to tell you (none / 0) (#97)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:54:32 AM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:55:34 AM EST
    the door (none / 0) (#100)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:56:12 AM EST
    Freaky (none / 0) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:01:07 AM EST
    of course preschoolers (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:02:36 AM EST
    would know this because most get on one every day

    Parent
    And they are small and vulnerable (none / 0) (#113)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:05:49 AM EST
    and you have to be very careful walking around the bus getting to do the door...so you don't get run over.  As an adult though, my brain automatically factors in for the door now on buses without consciously knowing that it does.

    Parent
    isnt it? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:01:54 AM EST
    And I would be wrong (none / 0) (#98)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:55:07 AM EST
    I thought it was going to the right because I can't see the driver who should be on the left side of the bus... Provided of course the bus isn't in a country where the driver is on the right.

    Parent
    close (none / 0) (#101)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:56:53 AM EST
    That's (none / 0) (#106)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:01:29 AM EST
    what happens when I over think. Almost considered an electric bus on rail with no driver but that made it more confusing

    Parent
    Not enough information (none / 0) (#102)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:58:24 AM EST
    The bus could be going in reverse or standing still. The position of bus features is not enough for a conclusive answer.

    If the answer that the illustrator intended were a computer program, you wouldn't want to buy it.  It's full of holes.

    Parent

    fail (none / 0) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:01:30 AM EST
    the bus is going left because you cant see the door.

    Parent
    There is absolutely enough information (none / 0) (#152)
    by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:00:56 AM EST
    I didn't see it the first time I was presented with this image, but it's definitely there.

    Parent
    Has Rep. Jackie Speier (none / 0) (#78)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:31:55 AM EST
    broken new ground for abortion rights in a very good way that has gone almost unnoticed? When speaking on the floor, has a member of the House or Senate ever spoken of her own abortion?

    Buzz Bissinger today (none / 0) (#88)
    by brodie on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:41:58 AM EST
    at the DB tackles a dicey subject in exploring why the NBA seems to be losing popularity lately among fans.  

    Not sure if I agree, and I don't see race as a conscious factor for myself as maybe 50% of my favorite teams to watch in NBA history have been all AA, but I'm with him on the personal lack of interest lately, at least in watching the endless and mostly meaningless regular season, as players for the most part seem to go through the motions with little passion and the season drags on slowly over too many months.  I begin watching only in April.  Wake me up then.

    Meantime it could be the Great Recession which is causing the fan downturn.  Or not.  Those interesting figures cited of significantly dwindling numbers of white players in the league probably are not going unnoticed at NBA headquarters.

    Stockton (none / 0) (#159)
    by me only on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:19:19 AM EST
    retired 8 years ago.  Bird 19 years ago.  Havlicek 33 years ago.

    This meme has been around for at least 20 years.

    Parent

    Some fruitcake Alabama fan (none / 0) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 09:59:39 AM EST
    poisoned the oak trees at Toomer's corner.  How senseless and idiotic, it's a fricken sport people.

    I mentioned that last night (none / 0) (#110)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:02:55 AM EST
    with a nod to you and your thoughts on some folks in Alabama.

    Parent
    When I lived in Mobile, AL (none / 0) (#114)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:07:22 AM EST
    one would've thought there was an exception to the 1st Commandment made in the case of Bear Bryant, I once saw a popcorn tin with his picture on it in a store when he still walked the earth.

    Parent
    Sorry, I missed it (none / 0) (#118)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:12:56 AM EST
    I will say that after I got used to the rivalry, for most people I know it is all in good fun most of the time.

    Killing beautiful old oaks for such a thing really makes me mad.  Obviously the football thing gets a little bit crazy for some people, and those people aren't comfortable around us because we think they are strange and they think we are strange.  We are Yankees anyhow.  We can never really get this football thing, we are in their minds posers in all things :)  We are only visiting, we can never actually live here :)

    Parent

    "Southern Hospitality"? (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:27:42 AM EST
    I blended in because I lived in student housing and only went to the New Orleans Symphony or other musical and school events where Yankees such as I were accepted like anyone else.

    It helps that all I need is a reddened face and a white shirt to pass as a good ol boy white guy there, so I didn't look like I was from the big, bad North.  

    I prefer Texas, they don't pretend that they aren't better than anyone else, except for a few of my relatives who live there, perhaps.   :-)

    Parent

    The accused (none / 0) (#133)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:28:24 AM EST
    appears to have named his first born "Bear"

    Parent
    perfect (none / 0) (#145)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:52:48 AM EST
    they should make a rug out of his sorry a$$.

    perhaps its my Druid sympathies but this makes me physically ill.

    Parent

    It's just stupid (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:01:24 AM EST
    I love football - I'm a fanatic for my teams.  But seriously?  Poisoning old, beautiful trees over a school rivalry? And this was no stupid college kids in a dumb prank.

    Pathetic.

    Parent

    They said on (none / 0) (#156)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:04:03 AM EST
    ESPN radio this morning that his daughter was named "Crimson"  (middle name "Tide").

    Parent
    If my dad had named me Crimson (5.00 / 0) (#165)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:25:14 AM EST
    in Alabama I'd have killed him.  It is in horrible taste, but some female Auburn fans refer to their period as surfing the Crimson Tide :)

    Parent