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GOP Govs Running Shy On Union Busting Bills

In the wake of a USA Today/Gallup Poll showing that Americans strongly oppose union busting bills such as the one proposed by Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, two GOP governors have come out against such bills. In Indiana, Mitch Daniels advised his party to abandon its "right to work" bill. And in Florida, Rick Scott, perhaps smarting from following the Tea Party's bad advice on HSR funding, supports collective bargaining for public sector employees:

My belief is as long as people know what they're doing, collective bargaining is fine," Scott said in an interview with Tallahassee's WFLA FM radio station.

Overreach by Walker? Can he extricate himself now?

Update: Also Michigan's GOP Governor.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Great news. Thanks. (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:31:38 PM EST


    Making headway (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:57:39 PM EST
    And, thank goodness, the headway isn't exactly the kind that Wisconsin's Gov. Walker(R) projected. There hasn't been a rush of embrace for him from his fellow Republican gubernatorial types. With the new Gallup poll showing 61% opposition, nationally, to the type of anti-union aggression Walker reveals, we can see why the others may have to regroup. I am curious tho about Ohio's new Gov. Kasich (R.) Is he a hardliner or is forewarned forearmed?

    The poll is interesting, and I wonder how much is a reflection of the network media's words describing the scene in Wisconsin--as the week wore on & the crowds grew--as the response to the new governor's efforts to weaken/take on/get rid of collective bargaining & unions.  It was refreshing to hear those words coming from the mainstream (maybe they got giddy with Egypt) wherein the protestors were accorded a dignified view. Uplifting as well was that 60%plus number of Americans who seem to be astute enough to see through Walker's scheme.

    I saw Kasich basically shouting down (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:47:45 PM EST
    the anchorwoman on CNN today when she was interviewing him.  He is a hardliner.  A shrill hardliner based on the interview I saw today.

    Parent
    It is IMO a little late for Walker to (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:36:10 PM EST
    extricate himself.  Any news on a possible recall in WI?

    No recall for a year (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Towanda on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 07:37:49 PM EST
    after taking office, by state law.

    But organizing has begun. . . .

    Parent

    Walker has the votes (none / 0) (#18)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:49:37 PM EST
    Elliot Spitzer gave Walker the playbook:

    Agree now to drop the union busting in exchange for the economic concessions.  Be hailed as reasonable.  Then bust the union in a separate bill later....

    Thanks, Spitzer.

    Parent

    The unions aren't the only (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:59:37 PM EST
    things under attack in that bill.  Badgercare and Medicaid are also under attack.  There is also a provision allowing for a closed no-bid sale of Wisconsin power plants or something.  It is a pretty ugly bill.  It will be interesting to see what happens next.  If Walker backs down on the collective bargaining and if the Democrats in hiding are so inclined, they could up the ante and make more demands for changes in the bill.  That's what the Republicans always do.  It would be nice to see Democrats try to move the goal posts every once in a while.

    The Ohio bill is also pretty pernicious. Similarly destructive.

    Parent

    I lived in Ohio once. (none / 0) (#43)
    by hairspray on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 11:48:51 PM EST
    It is really heavily Republican when all is said and done.  Until the early '90's state workers were required to have money taken from their checks for political parties and of course if your boss was Republican it wasn't easy to check the democratic box.  It was done away with during the '90's but it took a long time for people to complain.

    Parent
    I think WI entities still need to begin to (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:04:50 PM EST
    organize a recall of their governor.  It is my understanding that they can't actually take the action until next January.  But if I lived and voted in WI I would probably start working towards recall now.  Even if he magically becomes momentarily reasonable, that isn't a reason for me to become less vigilant and unprepared to act.  The man gave tax breaks and then attacked the middle class, right out of the gate.  And now he has pressed this far?  There is no such thing as ever being able to trust the idiot in my book.

    Parent
    They could recall eight of the (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:09:44 PM EST
    GOP Senators right now.  I would focus on that.  Because they are only going to do more damage between now and March 2012 - which would be the approximate earliest timing for a governor's recall.  But if they were able to challenge those eight Senators even just the threat might slow them down for the next few months - and maybe enough Dems could pick off seats to seriously impede Walker's radical agenda.

    Parent
    If you ever get tired of what you do (none / 0) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:13:36 PM EST
    The U.S. military could probably use you on a battlefield.

    Parent
    You're very kind. :) (none / 0) (#31)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:55:08 PM EST
    Being that I am something of a contrarian and I am scared of firecrackers - even sparklers - I never really thought that I'd be a great match for that outfit.  

    Parent
    According to Rachel Maddow (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by hairspray on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 11:52:34 PM EST
    he has an awful record as a state county supervisor.  Apparently if I have this right, he fired all of his union guards and replaced them with Wackenhut people. He lost the battle in court and the counties had to give the guards their jobs back with back pay.  It was a costly mistake costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Parent
    It is only my opinion (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 04:14:35 AM EST
    But Democratic entities in the state must begin to prepare for a recall.  This man really must go.

    Parent
    No, he was county executive (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 11:31:29 PM EST
    in Milwaukee. Before that, he was a state legislator from a Milwaukee suburb in the county.

    No such thing as a state county supervisor.  There are county supervisors on a county board.  They are elected, same as him.  They are independent of him.

    They had to spend all of their time fixing his messes.  Milwaukee County voted two-to-one against Walker as governor, much as they wanted him gone.

    Hope that helps.

    Parent

    I hope (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by lentinel on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:54:55 PM EST
    that this might mark a turnaround for the Union movement.

    To me, the death knell for the Union movement was sounded under Reagan when he fired the members of PATCO. I thought it was horrifying. Naturally, he justified it as a national security matter.

    The worst part was that PATCO was not supported by other Unions.

    I think that food handlers, ground crews, pilots .... all other related Unions should have gone out on strike in support of PATCO. And all other non-related Unions as well for that matter.

    But they didn't. They folded.

    In New York, an oldtimer told me that when a musician didn't get paid, the trucks wouldn't deliver to the nightclubs. There would be no food. No drinks. In some cases, no lights.
    Nowadays, musicians play for peanuts. Even the biggest clubs have no Union representation and do not give Union contracts.  Things have gone downhill.

    I would really like for Unions to become a real force to be reckoned with once again. There was always the opportunity for corruption, but Unions markedly improved the standard of living for millions until they were marginalized and neutered beginning with Reagan.

    Interestingly, the head of the (none / 0) (#23)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:06:42 PM EST
    Teacher's Union sent the teachers in Wisconsin back to work.  I thought it sounded like a bad thing until someone was talking about a general strike.  It occurred to me that the union is being pretty smart by punishing the politician who is attacking them instead of the people for whom they say that want to work.  I do think that solidarity across all unions is a really good idea in certain instances, but in this Wisconsin dispute it appears that a lot of people who voted for Walker didn't have any idea that he would be as radical as he is.  By doing everything they can to avoid inconveniencing them, they are able to keep the voters on their side, me thinks.  We shall see...

    Parent
    The attack of Unions has been relentless for (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:08:49 PM EST
    years.  Now sadly, voting American's believe outright false hype about Unions because the propaganda is winning.  This was just one battle, and if it doesn't come together for the busters it will be followed by a lull and then fresh attack in places not as strong as WI as the economy becomes more and more challenging.  If they can take WI out now though, I think everyone else will fall like dominos

    Parent
    I wish (none / 0) (#46)
    by sj on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 11:00:28 AM EST
    I could recommend each paragraph of this comment independently.

    Parent
    Don't believe Mitch (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by IndiDemGirl on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:28:11 PM EST
    I had the misfortune of teaching while Mitch was the Gov.  I stopped teaching fulltime when I gave birth to my daughter a few years back.

    Mitch believes what Walker does - he just is more sneaky.  The first thing Mitch did as Gov was sign away bargaining rights for some public employees.

    Here is a summary of the current bills under fire in Indiana:

    Senate Bill 333 - destorys all labor agreements on publicly funded construction projects

    Senate Bill 273 - forever bans collective bargaining and makes it a criminal act to strike

    Senate Bill 575 - Limits teacher bargaining rights including hours and days.  If Gov wants to extend the year he could do so without paying more money.

    Senate Bill 001- Hired agencies can evaluate teachers.  Teachers have no input.  State approves evaluation tool.  No appeals for teachers.

    House Bill 1003 Voucher bill

    House Bill 1002 - Charters can be created.  Empty school buidlings can be leased for $1 per year.  School corp must take care of building.  Only 50% of the teachers have to be licensed.

    House Bill 1585 Bans collective bargaining; strikes are criminal.  Pensions taken away from those who participate in strikes.  No dues collection.
    DON'T LET MITCH FOOL YOU!

    Sorry if above (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by IndiDemGirl on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:32:31 PM EST
    too long.  And any mistakes, well, I've just finished reading comments in my local paper calling teachers lazy welfare queens and uneducated slobs. Saying they don't have real degrees.

     I'm so upset I can't even see straight, let alone type straight. ( I must find a way to calm down.)

    My parents are both educators, before retirement, my aunt taught as well.  My niece is in her second year of teaching.  

    Parent

    Please don't apologize for (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 07:39:39 PM EST
    getting info out or for being upset.  This is a social war.  

    Parent
    That is the Indiana Repub group that I recall (none / 0) (#33)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 07:28:03 PM EST
    'Lived, voted, and served as a Dem Party official while at IU in Blmgtn. for 7 yrs. I just read your comment to my husband; we chuckled & grumbled in unison.

    Well...at this point, at least, looks like your Governor is trying to pose as reasonable for national attention. Use it for all that it is worth; figure a way to take advantage of it (as he would do conversely.)  

    Question: What the h*** is going on with the Repub Senate primary? Are they really going to turn on Lugar in favor of that teaparty type? And, what is Daniels going to do?  And...what signs of life for us Democrats? Any semi-strong Democrats on the horizon (or do we have to hope Lugar will run as an Independent ala Alaska's Murkowski if the teaparty gets its guy in?)

    Parent

    Aha, I begin to understand you (none / 0) (#70)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 11:34:05 PM EST
    as I have family from Hoosier Land.

    Lordy, you are a moderate on this blog -- but you must have been a flaming, wild-eyed liberal in Indiana!

    Parent

    Thank you, Towanda (none / 0) (#86)
    by christinep on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 11:59:36 AM EST
    You got it...it really is all about life experiences, in one way or another.

    Let me add: Tho most of my life in Denver--its work, political, & socio environs--the Bloomington escapades were really formative in the late 60s & 70s--whether it was marching with the service employees at the University and together with my husband (an active student body vp) lying down on the campus entry roads at 3:00 am to prevent the supply trucks from unloading (yea for the Teamsters who honored that lie-in and wouldn't cross the line) OR participating in a cordon (with the ConLaw professor) around my law school in the wake of Kent State OR proudly watching as my husband participated in an authorized challenge at the Chicago 1968 convention. "The Good Ol' Days."  They taught me a lot.

    But, even more so, the family background--Pennsylvania Slavic coal miners and very strong Union relatives & friends, and they all believed that FDR just about walked on water. Lots of struggles, lots of laughing & dancing, lots of politics & savvy...but, always found reason to look ahead, move ahead, optimistically.
    Thanks so much for seeing that.

    Parent

    So who will benefit for the $1 leases (none / 0) (#30)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:51:33 PM EST
    on school buildings?

    Parent
    Charter schools? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 07:39:57 PM EST
    Mitch Daniels (none / 0) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:35:34 PM EST
    clearly has it in mind to go for the republican nomination in 2012.

    that could have colored his decision.
    but to be fair, he doesnt seem like a fire breather.


    Yup (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:45:54 PM EST
    And while I don't agree with most of this speech he gave at CPAC recently, he actually did include this portion:

    So we must unify America, or enough of it, to demand and sustain the Big Change we propose. Here are a few suggestions:

    We must display a heart for every American, and a special passion for those still on the first rung of life's ladder. Upward mobility from the bottom is the crux of the American promise, and the stagnation of the middle class is in fact becoming a problem, on any fair reading of the facts. Our main task is not to see that people of great wealth add to it, but that those without much money have a greater chance to earn some.

    We should address ourselves to young America at every opportunity. It is their futures that today's policies endanger, and in their direct interest that we propose a new direction.

    We should distinguish carefully skepticism about Big Government from contempt for all government. After all, it is a new government we hope to form, a government we will ask our fellow citizens to trust to make huge changes.

    I urge a similar thoughtfulness about the rhetoric we deploy in the great debate ahead. I suspect everyone here regrets and laments the sad, crude coarsening of our popular culture. It has a counterpart in the venomous, petty, often ad hominem political discourse of the day.
    When one of us - I confess sometimes it was yours truly - got a little hotheaded, President Reagan would admonish us, "Remember, we have no enemies, only opponents." Good advice, then and now.

    He could be dangerous - while he hits most of the Republican talking points, he is not the firebrand of the crazies we see so much of on TV.

    Parent

    I think its fair to say (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:47:59 PM EST
    he is probably the most reasonable thing they have to offer.  which is not saying much.

    Parent
    not exactly (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:48:27 PM EST
    charismatic though.

    Parent
    Mitch Daniels just ruined his chances (none / 0) (#8)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:59:10 PM EST
    He will be rejected by the Tea Partiers for this....

    Romney may get the nomination without a fight...

    Thune is out.

    Huckabee is sounding very, very reluctant and like he wants to continue to make the big bucks to pay for his new Florida mansion....

    Pawlenty?  Will that be Mitt's main competition?

    Parent

    I would not discount (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:04:13 PM EST
    the possibility of them singing along with Mitch.

    (if you are old enough to get the joke)

    and honestly I think it might be a bigger race than some would imagine.
    he is IMO one of the more serious possible candidates.  

    Parent

    and (none / 0) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:08:38 PM EST
    I think he is smart to not pander to them.  he is smart enough to know he will not win with them and has said as much.

    Parent
    General election strategy? (none / 0) (#12)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:15:58 PM EST
    How do you get past the wackos of the Primary?

    Parent
    good question (none / 0) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:19:57 PM EST
    fortunately one I do not have to answer.

    suppose it will come down to how much they what teabaggers act like the pet otters in the early open thread this morning.

    and of course how they can stop them.

    pass the popcorn.


    Parent

    Will Sarah run? (none / 0) (#16)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:46:43 PM EST
    Oh please.  Purty please.  With lots of sugar on top.....

    Parent
    Be careful (none / 0) (#50)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 12:14:09 PM EST
    what you wish for. You might get it.

    Parent
    Yep. So far, this 2012 (none / 0) (#27)
    by brodie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:21:27 PM EST
    GOP race looks more like 1964 for them than anything else, with Mitch Daniels trying to play the Rocky(feller) role, which ended up a loser, while the Hard Right had too much momentum to overcome and so nominated Barry.  

    Otoh, the Mittster is hardly hardline no-doubt-about-it Barry, so unlike '64 this one is far more wide open.  But still, I think it's coming down to who will play Barry.

    Parent

    Or I'm (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 12:13:37 PM EST
    thinking it's 1972 and the GOP is playing the part of McGovern.

    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 12:12:48 PM EST
    I'm willing to bet that the tea baggers are a larger percentage of the party in certain states. It won't be too hard to get around these people. Look at what Obama did with caucuses. It can be done on the GOP side as well.

    Parent
    Indiana should be something to watch (none / 0) (#57)
    by christinep on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 02:53:46 PM EST
    Are the far-righties really going to take out Senator Lugar? Talk about self-defeat....

    Parent
    I'm not sure (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 03:10:48 PM EST
    that isn't a scary proposition coming from Indiana. the nut job might just win the senate seat since Obama is pretty unpopular in IN right now.

    Parent
    An extensive Gallup poll about the states (none / 0) (#60)
    by christinep on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 03:37:58 PM EST
    and the President's present approval level in each of them has Obama at a rather healthy 45 plus in Indiana(or in that neighborhood.) It may be the neighboring Illinois effect...the graphics for each state are on their site.

    My long-ago years in Indiana lead me to the same scary thought you express. Yet, a split Republican party in the Hoosier state could easily tip Indiana into the Democratic column.

    Parent

    I learned (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 08:35:59 PM EST
    from the November results that the top line numbers are worthless for Obama. You have to look at the strong approve and strongly disapprove numbers to get any type of indication on what's really going on and also 45% is not enough to win.

    Parent
    If the Republicans in Indiana split... (none / 0) (#65)
    by christinep on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 09:33:16 PM EST
    the upshot is that any of the high 40s is more than the kind of chance one would expect there. Really. The Lugar challenge may be the only way that Democrats would realize both the electoral vote and even see a new Democratic Senator. The numbers will come down to the suburbs around Indianapolis in that kind of free-for-all. (And, generally, 45% in a state like Indiana is not bad at this stage of the game...because that is a fighting number for an incumbent that usually goes up when the opponent has a name. Unless. of course, the name is Mitch Daniels...in which case incumbency wouldn't matter.) Just an aside: By all measures, the national numbers for President Obama are good--all things considered--at this date. But then (as we all know), those numbers can change a kazillion times between now and November 2012.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 06:04:53 AM EST
    the GOP was split right down the middle here in GA last year and it made no difference when it came to the general election. This kind of "win by default" thinking is pervasive in the Obama camp and it's the kind of thing that most of the time ends up being a losing strategy for the ones who are hoping to benefit from it.

    Parent
    He seems serious to liberals (none / 0) (#11)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:15:14 PM EST
    and thoughtful conservatives....

    And with a base consisting of those folks, Mitch gets how many votes in Iowa?  

    The reasonable folks left the GOP....I would say in 1980.....but definitely as of this year....

    Parent

    It will be interesting for sure (none / 0) (#47)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 11:56:56 AM EST
    Esepcially as the Republicans have changed the rules for their primaries, and gone to proportional wins.

    ...the Republican Party has recently changed its rules so that all the states having primaries before April 1, 2012 will allocate their delegates proportionally instead of winner-take-all.

    The change in the rules to mandate proportional allocation of delegates may end up having a significant impact on the eventual selection of the Republican Presidential nominee. John McCain's victory in 2008 was primarily determined by his key primary victories in early winner-take-all primaries in South Carolina, Florida, California, Missouri, New Jersey and New York. If the delegates had been awarded proportionally in 2008, McCain's 47% of the primary vote might have left him short of the necessary delegates for the nomination, especially if Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee had stayed in the race until the convention.



    Parent
    He has done this before (none / 0) (#19)
    by NMvoiceofreason on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:52:16 PM EST
    As reported last night on Rachel Maddow, this guy is a serial offender. Rachel Maddow on Governor Scott Walker...It's about breaking the union and the Democrats...
    Seems he has had run ins with unions before and he is hell bend on getting rid of them....

    During the time he was the Milwaukee County executive  he cut the number of employee's on the county payroll be 20%.....

    But there was a couple problems with that....

    Maddow  did not address this...but with  cutting the county debt 10%....He INCREASED the county spending by 35%......

    Maddow's example last night concerned the county's court contract for security guards....

    Seems the Wachenhut Company had the contract before Walker showed up.....

    Along with his campaign for fiscal conservatism he got rid of the unionized Wachenhut guards...

    They where replaced by British based company , that was non-union.....That wasn't really a security company

    ..But they got the job....

    That company hired for the SECURITY contract a supervisor that was a convicted felon that served jail time according to Maddow....

    To  Yes...supervise guards at a COURTHOUSE.....

    The clincher?

    In response to a court challenge from Wackenhut and the unionized guards......

    A recent court ruling  has ordered the reinstatement of the orignal Wachenhut guards and fined the Milwaukee County Government $430,000...

    Folks Governor Scott Walker has admitted publicly that he doesn't like unions.....period...

    As Ms. Maddow said repeatedly last night...

    The fight in Wisconsin has nothing.....NOTHING to do with money.....

    It's all about the future - for Walker in his party.

    Parent

    Walker punked - (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by smott on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 01:31:59 PM EST
    This site has the audio (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by DFLer on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 03:27:28 PM EST
    link

    Also, the origin of the punk was buffalo beast dot com, but that site is currently down.

    Parent

    Walker may not "win" in (none / 0) (#3)
    by KeysDan on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:45:10 PM EST
    Wisconsin, even if he prevails on his union busting bill, but he is likely to become a national Republican Tea Party hero for being, according to their lights, a stand up guy.  As for the Florida governor, it is encouraging to learn that he may be happy to let the Wisconsin governor be the spear catcher on this issue.  Never-the-less, I am still of the opinion that it is not wise to vote for a governor who has Scott in his name.  

    The spear catcher :) (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:36:52 PM EST
    Uh (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 07:22:36 PM EST
    according to this poll the unions are in trouble.

    And remember, Rasmussen polls likely voters, not just whoever answers the phone.

    Except that noone has the foggiest idea (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 07:31:57 PM EST
    of who "likely voters" are this far out before an election.  Rasmussen knows that; and, you probably do too.

    Parent
    The method they use is (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 08:13:47 PM EST
    complicated and very technical.

    They ask.

    Parent

    Gotta remember (none / 0) (#66)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 10:14:13 PM EST
    "likely voters" only counts when PPJ agrees with the results of the poll.

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:49:39 AM EST
    Ras does it one way, Gallup another.

    That's just factual.

    I find likely voter as a better view of what the political public wants because they say they will vote. They are engaged and know they will have to be sure they're registered, study ALL the issues, stand in line, often in bad weather, and vote.

    A general poll tells us very little. Kinda like surveys re Custom Calling features in telecom. Everyone said they wanted the new features.

    Then when the survey said, "Okay, this is the cost, how much do you want?" the % dropped to near 20%.

    Free lunch syndrome, etc.

    Parent

    PPJ, you wouldn't know a chi-square (none / 0) (#79)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:56:25 AM EST
    from a Students' test, so for you to pontificate on poll methodology is supremely risible..

    I'll take Nate Silver over your musings on the subject, as Mr. Silver pointed out the Rassmussen poll in question was asking a question that wasn't even the issue in the first place, not that there's anything wrong with that.

    :-)

    Parent

    Another poll finds more than half (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Towanda on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 09:09:17 PM EST
    in Wisconsin now support unions -- about twice the support in some previous poll a few years ago that I saw cited -- and even more now are against what Walker is doing in Wisconsin.  But he's bullish and hardheaded, and word is that he need not worry about re-election as governor with his sights set elsewhere.

    So what will be seen is whether Repub legislators who do want re-election will be as hardheaded.  About half of the Repub state senators have been in office for six weeks and still are finding the restrooms in the Capitol.  They seem dumbstruck.

    Parent

    If this can be considered (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 07:49:25 PM EST
    relevant and the stakes matching this poll, why isn't a robust counter protest present?  Why isn't the protest made up of 38% against and 48% for?  I think this poll represents people who are angry because they can't seem to break into middle class or remain middle class due to the economic crisis that Republicans have brought us to, so they think others should suffer too.  I don't think any of these people will show up at the polls in the same strength or with passion to match how those against this legislation will.

    The Unions are not in trouble. Some people out there are frustrated and want to kick someone and they don't realize that if they kick the Unions they are in the end degrading themselves even more in this social structure where the rich and the corporations pay for nothing and only drain everyone's wealth through class warfare.

    Parent

    We all know Rasmussen polls (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 10:21:22 PM EST
    are fair and balanced:

    The Rasmussen example is more blatant than most. While many teachers have been among the protesters at the State Capitol in Madison, obliging the city to close its schools for days, there have been no reports of reductions in police or fire services, and in fact, uniformed services are specifically exempted from the proposals that the teachers and other public-sector employees are protesting. So bringing in the uniformed services essentially makes No. 3 a talking point posed as a question.

    As an analogy, imagine a survey that asked respondents whether they believed the Democrats' health care overhaul included "death panels" before asking them whether they approved or disapproved of the bill over all.

    The second question in the Rasmussen poll found that 36 percent of respondents believe that public-sector employees earn more than private-sector workers in their state, while 21 percent thought public sector workers earned less, and 20 percent thought they earned about the same amount.

    In fact, according to an analysis by USA Today, state employees earn about 5 percent less than comparable employees in the private sector, on average, although federal employees receive significantly (20 percent) more.

    ,b.A poll is not a pop quiz, and the respondents in the survey are not to blame for giving the "wrong" response. Also, the question posed by Rasmussen, which did not consider the type of work performed and asked simply about average salaries in the respondent's home state, was not exactly the same as the one studied by USA Today, which covered the whole country and took account of the the type of work done. Still, to the extent that this misperception about pay levels is widely held and casts public employees in a less favorable light, a survey question that reminds respondents of it could bias responses to later questions.,/b.

    Until we have another survey that designs its questions more carefully, there is no good way to predict how the responses to this one might have turned out differently.

    Another automated poll by the survey firm We Ask America, which is a subsidiary of the Illinois Manufacturers' Association and uses methodology similar to that of Rasmussen Reports, found that a majority of respondents disapprove of Mr. Walker's budget plan -- but it was a survey of Wisconsin residents, not the entire country, as Rasmussen's was.

    Because of the problems with question design, my advice would be simply to disregard the Rasmussen Reports poll, and to view their work with extreme skepticism going forward.



    Click or 538 Me


    Parent
    The general public is not (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 08:15:00 PM EST
    acclimated towards demonstrating.

    Parent
    The Tea Partiers (none / 0) (#67)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 10:19:33 PM EST
    were clearly outnumbered in the demonstrations on Saturday last, funny how your explanation doesn't account for that fact......

    Parent
    The general public is not (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:53:14 AM EST
    acclimated towards demonstrating. No bosses were sending emails and no one was letting them have a paid day off.

    They oppose it, but their self interest is not yet fully pricked.

    Parent

    Except that on a Saturday (none / 0) (#81)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:59:52 AM EST
    there would be a lot of people who would have the day off, you know that as well as I, so your excuse, as usual, doesn't make much sense.

    Parent
    Unions are essential (none / 0) (#39)
    by kgoudy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 08:21:13 PM EST
    they gave us workers comp, the weekend and decent treatmnet. walker, the koch brothers shill, is an arbitray proponent of capitalism run to tyranny. viva la revolucion

    Clip from "Matewan" (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dadler on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 10:34:40 PM EST
    If FDR didn't like collective bargaining (none / 0) (#55)
    by Slado on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 02:09:38 PM EST
    What's a progressive to do?

    FDR

    The idea that public sector unions are like private sector unions is pure democratic spin.  It is not lost on the American people that 99% of public sector unions support democrats.

    The only question for Republicans and any democrat that wants to do his job for his actual constituents is how they bust up the unions, not if.

    This is not a red & blue issue.  This is a black and white issue.

    The states are broke and no amount of tax dollars can support the commitments legislatures have made to this small fraction of the populace.

    Dems can keep holding onto the status quo but fiscal reality will bring this system down.  This reality will only be harder to deal with if we wait.

    The same polls that say Americans "support" unions also show a much larger proportion don't want to have their taxes raised, because they're already too high.

    Not sure what your argument is (none / 0) (#56)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 02:19:04 PM EST
    The union members in Wisconsin have said from the beginning that they would agree to the cuts (so, I'm not sure how taxes would be raised).

    What they are angry about is that Walker wants to strip them the right to collectively bargain - without even a discussion.

    That's not democracy - that's a dictatorship.

    Parent

    The democracy part came last Nov. (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 08:16:36 PM EST
    Or do you think unions get special treatment?

    Parent
    I don't remember you having (none / 0) (#68)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 10:22:13 PM EST
    this same attitude towards the Tea Partiers after the election of 2008, or did you think they deserved special treatment as well?

    Parent
    The Tea Party people (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:40:28 AM EST
    are not government employees.

    Parent
    That's a distinction without a difference (none / 0) (#74)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:48:19 AM EST
    or are you suggesting there should be a different standard for government employees and Tea Partiers?

    Parent
    Absolutely (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 08:04:39 AM EST
    The Tea Party is a loosely, at best, organized fraternal group of diverse political interests. My actual experience shows me that it runs from drug law reform (libertarian)to opposition to a woman's right to chose. (I support the former and oppose the opposition.)

    The diverse interests and discussions remind me very much of the Democratic Party I was a proud member of in my youth. You should attend a few meetings.

    (Don't pay a lot of attention to those "leaders" you see on TV. They are mostly Repub movers and shakers wanna bees.)

    The government employee unions are unions.

    Do I need to point out more?

    Parent

    No, but thanks for trying anyway. (none / 0) (#85)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 08:10:23 AM EST
    Nope (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:42:54 AM EST
    What he wants to do is allow neogiation over salary but remove the rest.

    I find that generous in the extreme.

    Parent

    Of course, PPJ (none / 0) (#76)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:50:25 AM EST
    taking their rights to collectively bargain is sooooooooooo important.............................

    Parent
    I proudly admit to (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:55:44 AM EST
    being 200% against government employee unions.

    Now that we have established that perhaps we can move forward and discuss other aspects.

    Parent

    Is that like when McGovern (none / 0) (#80)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 07:58:22 AM EST
    was 1000% behind his VP candidate, until he replaced him with Sargent Shriver?

    That's what I thought.

    Parent

    Huh?? (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 08:05:54 AM EST
    I thought you were informed on American history? (none / 0) (#84)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 08:08:50 AM EST

    On July 25, 1972, just over two weeks after the 1972 Democratic Convention, McGovern's running mate, Thomas Eagleton, revealed that he had received electroshock therapy for clinical depression during the 1960s. McGovern had been running an emotional crusade against incumbent President Richard Nixon; the Republicans counterattacked by suggesting that McGovern was crazy, so the evidence that his running mate had secretly undergone psychiatric treatment three times for mental illness destroyed the McGovern strategy.[5] Influential Democrats questioned Eagleton's ability to handle the office of Vice President, and McGovern's competence in choosing top officials. In the face of overwhelming demand from the media and party leaders that Eagleton be replaced, McGovern announced that he was, "1000 percent behind Tom Eagleton, and I have no intention of dropping him from the ticket."[6] However the pressure was too much and Eagleton announced on July 31 that he was withdrawing his candidacy. Five prominent Democrats turned down McGovern's desperate pleas to replace Eagleton, leaving the party in disarray. McGovern lost by one of the largest landslides in history.


    Click or 1000% Me


    Parent

    Jim and Harry (none / 0) (#88)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:56:46 PM EST
    Get a room and stop blog-clogging the thread with your personal spats.

    Parent
    The new right (none / 0) (#87)
    by denvercougars on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:09:44 PM EST
    It just baffles me that the right now believes that it is in the public interest to side with the Koch brothers over the American people.. Interesting to see how the media has covered it and the difference between independent media and corporate media. http://www.talkleft.com/story/2011/4/10/104337/928#11

    please put your links (none / 0) (#89)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:57:57 PM EST
    in html format. Use the link button at the top of the comment box. Long links skew the site and I can't edit comments, only delete them.

    Parent