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    I would (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:04:27 PM EST
    just like to say that I'm sure the RNC would like to thank ABG for promoting their ideas here on the blog.

    Apparently since Obama won't bother to change the conversation and the polls agree with the GOP, we should all just go ahead and let the GOP run things.

    ABG is the best advocate for the GOP that this blog has. He's even better than than BTAL and Jim. Even they aren't as good as advocates for the GOP as ABG is.

    Heh. Jim's a good guy. (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:07:57 PM EST
    He's also consistently supported single payer. That's more consistency than the White House.

    Parent
    Yeah, but I support it because it is the only (3.50 / 2) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:56:53 PM EST
    thing that makes sense. Not because I hate big pharm or the insurance corps and love mankind...

    ;-)

    Same thing for rationalizing our drug laws. The war is lost. Time to straighten up the mess and getting on with things.

    Too many people demand that everyone be true believers rather than mere supporters on a particular issue.  That's true on the Left and the Right.

    Parent

    As (none / 0) (#39)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:02:09 PM EST
    a former business owner, it would free up a lot of expenses and time too. Dealing with these insurance companies can be extremely time consuming.

    Parent
    That's the thing... (none / 0) (#105)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:17:04 PM EST
    agreement on common causes. disagreement on others. nothing wrong with pragmatism on the failure of the war on drugs or a better health care system.

    We disagree on a lot, but we agree here, and on check-raises!  ;-)

    Parent

    Very true (none / 0) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:09:55 PM EST
    I liked your comparison with Obama to Nixon. Very striking.

    Parent
    Thanks. i try to be accurate. (none / 0) (#4)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:11:01 PM EST
    and when i make mistakes I try to won up to them.

    Parent
    ugh 'own' up to them. (none / 0) (#5)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:11:24 PM EST
    Jeff, interesting bar graphs in (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:33:42 PM EST
    Monday NYT comparing salarries of academics in public v. private institutions.  

    Parent
    What I find humorous... (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:49:48 PM EST
    is if the 2008 primary had gone the other way, we'd have dozens of ABG's here defending mirror policies and mirror compromises...and a handful of "if only we elected Obama" dreamers.

    The bank owns the lot of 'em folks...nobody gets within a whiff of power without the bank signing off on it.  Anything less is cult of personality self-delusion.

    Parent

    The policies may have been similar (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:52:02 PM EST
    but Obama really is sui generis---
    pretending to be a wimp to get his way on issue after issue.
    Perhaps Obama is perversely exploiting his perceived weakness the way that W. took advantage of the very low expectations of his intelligence.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:55:10 PM EST
    we wouldn't. There were Hillary supporters who were critical of some of the things she did unlike Obama supporters who thought he could do no wrong.

    I always said that Hillary was far from perfect but that she at least realized how awful the GOP was and there was going to be none of this bi partisanship namby pamby crap.

    Parent

    I think she would be a better negotiator (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:00:45 PM EST
    she also said she wouldn't touch HCR until second term and wanted to deal with the economy first.

    But hey, it's all water under the bridge at this point . . .

    Parent

    But are they really negotiating? (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:08:53 PM EST
    or is the issue settled, and the negotiations are just for show and fund-raising?

    I don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes, all I know is I smell something rotten in Denmark....really rotten.

    Parent

    Even if it was settled (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:18:04 PM EST
    and it was for show, I think she would drive for better deals. And I think she cares more about the social issues/"entitlements". She's also not afraid to get her hands dirty and put her nose to the grindstone. I doubt she would be depressed and need 4 hrs of golf . . .

    like I said though, water . . .

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#43)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:10:20 PM EST
    The bad economy brought us a Republican Congress.  After that, for all intents and purposes, the die had been cast.

    To date, the only thing that has stopped the Republican Congress is the women Democratic Senators drawing a line in the sand on Planned Parenthood.

    That appears the only way to stop the Republicans--we'll see if it happens again.  

    Parent

    She was pushing for HOLC after (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:24:24 PM EST
    the economy crashed and doing her best to promote MS over/equal with WS. While she can play well with repubs, I think she has lines in the sand and isn't under the impression that that they will play fair. Bully pulpit would prob suit her better . . .

    Thank dawg for the women dems, lets hope they keep their lines.

    Parent

    If only the men Dems in the Senate (none / 0) (#59)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:39:55 PM EST
    get the same backbone as the women Dems.

    Obama will mediate between the Republicans and the Democrats.  If the Democrats hold firm, then they can force Obama to find "common ground" closer to the liberal view.....

    Is it so hard to understand this?

    MS and WS?   Maybe I should know this, but I don't....

    Parent

    Just in case nystray is busy (none / 0) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:43:43 PM EST
    MS = Main St.

    WS = Wall St.

    Took me a couple of minutes to figure it out also.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#76)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:58:25 PM EST
    working on big files in the background, so I'm a tad slow :)

    Parent
    Hang on a sec. Since when does (none / 0) (#66)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:47:54 PM EST
    a President mediate between the two parties???
    He is supposed to LEAD.
    Is there another example of a President who governed by mediating between the two parties?

    Parent
    Merely describing what is happening (none / 0) (#70)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:53:22 PM EST
    Not advocating it......

    Parent
    In other words, to protect progressive (none / 0) (#74)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:55:11 PM EST
    values, progressives need to find support in the Senate....

    Don't waste time elsewhere....

    Parent

    Main St/Wall St :) (none / 0) (#72)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:54:35 PM EST
    But do we need mediation without O having some of his own lines in the sand (that are to the left!)? I do wish the dem men possessed more spines, but some leadership over mediation at the top couldn't hurt.

    Parent
    Yeah, but maybe she would have (none / 0) (#30)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:56:15 PM EST
    embraced bo-partisanship.

    Parent
    The illusion... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:59:13 PM EST
    might have played out differently, aka the show for us rubes...more adversarial, less bi-partisany...but the results would be the same.

    Like one, the other, both, neither...thats all cool.  But lets not pretend our problems are anything 1 election, or 1 president, can fix.  The problems are systemic.

    Parent

    Nope (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:37:11 PM EST
    If Hillary was promoting cuts to medicare and social security just like Obama is there would be heck to pay for her too.

    Like it or not, they were very different during the primaries. I saw it and many others saw it too.

    But since you only seem to really care about the drug war then I doubt you would see much difference.

    Parent

    Is that the same way (none / 0) (#95)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:43:26 PM EST
    that Bill Clinton would have heck to pay for attacking welfare, establishing DADT and DOMA, and starting the deregulation of the financial industry?

    Parent
    Here's the (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:56:27 PM EST
    thing: Bill Clinton ran on reforming welfare. He didn't pretend to be something he was not w/r/t issues.

    Bill got cut a lot of slack because the economy was good. He never proposed cutting Medicare and actually let the GOP shut down the government over their desire to cut Medicare. Obama is ready to cut Medicare for the GOP.

    DOMA was wrong but DADT is the province of Sam Nunn. It was the compromise position of gays in the military. Bill fought to get approval of gays in the military but he and Sam Nunn got in a fight and DADT is the compromise position.

    Clinton did not start deregulation of the financial industry. that was started with Jimmy Carter. Don't get on Glass Stegall because I actually have benefited it from it. My bank is honest and didn't take any Tarp money. If Obama would just prosecute these banksters instead of enabling them, it would go a long way to fixing the banking industry.

    Parent

    Not really (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:34:38 PM EST
    Particularly since:

    1.  They're two different people.  I know the CDSers and 'bots had trouble with that concept in '08, but it's really not a difficult concept.

    2.  DADT was a compromise forced after Clinton made repeal of the ban a high priority in his first term, at a time when the Congress, the DOD and public opposed repeal of the ban.  Unlike, say .... Obama, who had the support of all three and still hid behind Congress.

    3.  Welfare - Clinton didn't "attack" or "cave" on welfare reform (as you've previously tried to claim).  He actually ran on reforming welfare and followed through with his campaign promise.  I know ... a novel concept for this administration.

    4.  DOMA - Yep, he signed it.  He also supports its repeal now, as Obama does - now.  Who knows what Obama would have said in '97, but given his love for polls, his opposition to same-sex marriage and affinity for Donnie McClurkin, I wouldn't have bet on his opposition to DOMA.

    5.  Financial deregulation - You mean GLB?  Hate to tell you, but GLB wasn't responsible for the financial collapse.  More importantly, it was passed 362-57 and 90-8.  That's called "veto-proof".

    Anything else before you get back to your usual weak defense of Obama? ("But, but, BUT Clinton!  One of them!)"

    Parent
    Good list, but (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 12:24:55 AM EST
    geez, how short everybody's memories are.  DOMA was to KEEP THE GOPERS from going for a constitutional amendment, which they were working up a really big head of steam for.  DOMA forestalled that by allowing Blue Dogs and the moderate Republicans we had then to say they voted against gay marriage without our ending up with an amendment to the Constitution forbidding it.

    I have zero doubt that if it weren't for the DOMA bill, we'd have a constitutional prohibition now.


    Parent

    Some in TL will always mention (none / 0) (#103)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:08:54 PM EST
    that Bill Clinton raised taxes on the rich in 1993 but will never say that in 1997, he signed into law reduction of the top capital gains rate from 28% to 20%, accelerating the move towards a casino economy.

    Parent
    Got me there GA (none / 0) (#96)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:44:18 PM EST
    human rights issues are my bread and butter, nearest and dearest to my heart.  And when it comes to human rights, there was never a lick of difference...and I could not in good conscience vote for either of them.

    You guys pay more attention to the wonkery...I can't get past the senseless misery created to ever get to wonkery.

    Parent

    I can't speak for others on the blog (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:04:58 PM EST
    but had the primaries gone the other way and the same policies were being pursued my opinions would not have changed. Issues are important - individual politicians not so much. IMO it is a bad mistake to try and make politicians into heroes regardless of which party they belong to.  

    Parent
    I've been having (1.00 / 1) (#9)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:17:15 PM EST
    visions of how Obama would compromise with Hitler, if he were US President in 1939.
    Let's see... get Hitler to agree not to declare sovereignty any further West than Iceland, and only for a limited time of 1000 years. Thus, only a 1000 year Reich.
    In return, Hitler promises to rid the world of the communist scourge by invading Russia (which he did not plan to do, as you could plainly tell from the non-aggression pact).
    Next, the so-called Jewish problem.
    Obama is not convinced of the reports he has heard, and wants to get all the facts before deciding whether humanitarian intervention is warranted.
    He does extract a promise from Hitler to take a census of the Jews, after all the hostilities cease. When this census is taken, there are 5,000 Jews in Europe, all of them elderly or mental degenerates (such as unionists).
    Obama praises Hitler for managing to keep these unlikely weaklings alive through the whole war.
    Oh, I forgot---Obama also gets Hitler to exempt Jews from the draft.
    Go Obama!! There's bo-partisanship at work for you!

    Parent
    Godwin's law n/t (1.00 / 0) (#11)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:25:38 PM EST
    Not really. It's just that we have (none / 0) (#13)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:35:14 PM EST
    a real "financial security in our time" President who invites certain comparisons.

    Parent
    No, that's pretty much (1.00 / 1) (#14)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:36:40 PM EST
    exactly what your comment was - a glib comparison of present day issues with Hitler/Nazism.  Godwin's Law to a T.

    Parent
    I'm sorry, That's just not accurate. (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:39:17 PM EST
    Godwin is illustrated when, for example, Republicans compare this or that Democrat to Hitler himself.
    Anyway, I'm done discussing whether something is or is not an example of Godwin's law.
    That's Godwinesque in itself.

    Parent
    Um (none / 0) (#19)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:44:10 PM EST
    you are the one comparing the GOP to Hitler.

    Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons. "Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust," Godwin has written.

    wikipedia

    Parent

    Aren't you the one who doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:46:59 PM EST
    like silly comment policing?!
    BTW, the GOP DID support Hitler, so there is historical basis for a comparison.
    Also, it's  hard to ignore the fact that, like Hitler, their first move in power is to go after the unions.


    Parent
    I don't like (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:57:17 PM EST
    people going after each other with ad hom attacks or trying to drive people away from TL.

    The idea behind Godwin's Law is pretty simple.  Glib comparison.  Check.

    Parent

    In the 30's and early 40's the GOP (3.50 / 2) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:58:30 PM EST
    was basically isolationistic. They didn't "support" Hitler anymore than some Progressives supported Stalin.

    The positions of the two parties vis a vis defense has now switched although anti-war comments have almost disappeared since Obama became President.

    As for unions, the issue in WI was not "unions" but "government employee unions." And you may find this strange, but a Demo Prez named Roosevelt was against government employee unions.  

    Parent

    The American Legion, (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:35:55 PM EST
    the Liberty League, the Christian Front and the German AMerican Bund were some of the big supporters of fascism, with such names as Henry Ford, J.P. Morgan, the DuPonts, Andrew Mellon, the Rockefellers, E.F. Hutton, and Father Charles Coughlin, among the famous supporters.

    A lot of folks were isolationists, and a lot of folks were fascists, but the republican party didn't endorse fascism.

    Ironically, GM and Ford built equipment for the US military and the Nazi German military at the same time.

    William Randolf Hearst, Charles Lindburgh, Prescott Bush,

    All of these groups and/or individuals did support fascism and/or the Nazis. But the republican party didn't.  Oh, lest I forget, Huey P. Long was a supporter of fascism, also.

    By the time of Roosevelt's nomination there were threats from the left and the right-- communism and fascism, against the constitution. The most powerful threat was from the right-- the planned coup that tried to recruit Smedley Butler, USMC, An Army General from WWI and former commander of the American Legion, and even Douglas MacArthur to head a coup against Roosevelt. All three reported the contact, and none accepted leadership, needless to say.

    If I had a single link, I'd give it, but a lot of this is from memory, with specifics from about 10 different sites.

    I may not like a lot about the republican party, but it didn't embrace the fascists, like Jim said.

    Parent

    Forgot to add... (none / 0) (#122)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:38:16 PM EST
    Roosevelt strongly supported labor unions and collective bargaining outside of the federal public sector. He didn't speak of state or local unions. I imagine he'd have been consistent, though.

    Parent
    You do push that line, observed (none / 0) (#52)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:28:38 PM EST
    ...and, IMHO, go beyond all propriety in transparently attempting a Hitler-comparison stretch. BTW, that kind of stuff adds nothing to any political debate in any blog. It is sheer manipulation of emotion (arguably, the same time of emotional manipulation that you so readily cast on Obama.)

    Parent
    this is not the first time it was done (none / 0) (#26)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:51:19 PM EST
    in the last couple of days there were other posts comparing Obama to Chamberlain.


    Parent
    oh come on (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:58:25 PM EST
    now we can't use neville chamberlain as an example because he dealt with the nazis?  because he made a historically bad deal?  look, i understand the nauseating overuse of hitler and nazis, etc., but there is a qualitative difference between using the leadership tendencies of those who dealt with the nazis and calling the Repubs Nazis, or Bush Hitler, or Obama the Nazi appeaser.  

    I made the Chamberlin comparison because that's what O reacting to the budget deal struck me as: a fool yapping about a bad deal with a bad party as if it were a good thing.  

    Godwin's invocation, while often spot on, is not immune to overuse, as well.  

    Parent

    Its just dumb and unnecessary (none / 0) (#47)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:13:39 PM EST
    the funny thing is that there are plenty of disillusioned original Obama supporters here.  The Left as a whole is just about exhausted.  When you have Kevin Drum, Paul Krugman and Ezra Klein on the same day questioning whether Obama is pursuing the same strategy then you can be fairly confident that he doesn't have the support of the left or the center slightly left.  Disagreeing with Obama has never seemed like a more reasonable position.  IMO...

    Parent
    There are trolls and (none / 0) (#53)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:31:39 PM EST
    there is this type of suggestive smear that observed just practiced. (In his defense, observed may be "smoking something" with the birthers and others who practice conspiracy theories.)

    Parent
    While I do not agree with the observe's (none / 0) (#69)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:52:23 PM EST
    comment, your analogy is like a defense attorney saying, "In his defense, observed is guilty as charged and should get the maximum penalty."

    (In his defense, observed may be "smoking something" with the birthers and others who practice conspiracy theories.)  

    Parent

    If the average (none / 0) (#15)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:37:38 PM EST
    democrat or independent read this blog and the comments, you think I am the one that would seem unreasonable?

    Parent
    I am (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:45:20 PM EST
    the "average democrat" like a lot of people around this blog. I've never voted for Nader and despise the guy.

    You are basically advocating abdicating everything to the GOP.

    Leaders don't read polls, they create movements.

    Parent

    I am abdicating nothing (none / 0) (#40)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:04:52 PM EST
    Let's settle on a standard here. The list of tasks for Obama from a thousand feet:

    1. Keep the white house and take congress back.

    2. Moving policy as far left as possible.

    3. Reversing the highly destructive trend of partisanship.

    4. Addressing some of the legitimate interests and positions on the right.

    If I am Obama, I am faced with those four choices or something close to it almost every time I make a move.

    The issue (and the reason that Obama (and those like your hero Abg at times) are viewed as Rush Limbaugh dittoheads is that we attribute a real value to items 1, 3 and 4.  For most here most upset by Obama, 2 is the only factor.  The problem IMHO is that once you tell an Anne, for example, that 4 is a legitimate factor the response is that you are a republican.  Matter of fact, if you give any credence to any of 1, 3 or 4 you are Hannity.

    That strikes me as fundamentally wrong, or at a minimum, pretty darn unfair.

    Parent

    Let's talk about 2 and 4 (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:10:20 PM EST
    the problem seems to be that for #2 we get crumbs and #4 he seems to be willing to give away the store on. If he reversed the balance, some might sing a different tune. Perhaps he needs to review the Dem party platform, as he seems to have the Repub one down pat when it comes to addressing party wishes.

    Parent
    #2 (none / 0) (#97)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:48:26 PM EST
    On the liberal social agenda, Obama has moved the country left.

    If forcing the concept of healthcare for all is a liberal notion in any way, he has moved the country left.

    He has not moved the country left on tax policies for the next 2 years or the 6 month budget.

    And that's the piece that gets short shrift here.

    The liberal blogosphere went absolutely bat sh*t over concessions made in a budget that will cover half a year.

    That's insane.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#188)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:53:48 AM EST
    On the liberal social agenda, Obama has moved the country left.

    How so? Please tell us where he led to move the country leftward on social issues.

    I think it's more like, on some issues (gay marriage), the country has been moving more leftward and Obama has followed along and now wants to take credit for "leading" change.

    Parent

    How do you do #2 (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:36:26 PM EST
    and #3 at the same time?  

    If Obama is trying to enact left policy, but end bipartisanship, you would think he would encourage the House Dems to come up with their own proposals or invite them to talks.  Pelosi & co. were apparently not major players in the budget talks.  House Dems have decided to make Simpson-Bowles their blueprint.  Obama likes to see himself as reasonable and as the most reasonably left alternative out there.  He's definitely not the most reasonably left voice in politics, so he should give up that role, IMO.

    Parent

    Without any inside knowledge (none / 0) (#79)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:03:06 PM EST
    my feeling is that the WH thinks that Simpson-Bowles is the leftmost position that states like CO, VA, NC, MN, IN will allow. These states seem to rank very high in the WH 2012 election radar.
    Senators and Reps from reliably blue states (with unions, older and less affluent populations will have to pull the WH to the left (some midwest states will be key here, WI, MI, OH, etc).

    Parent
    They (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:07:07 PM EST
    must not know about all the elderly people in NC who depend on Social Security and Medicare to get by then. Even the stupid GOPer's here in GA ran on "protecting social security and medicare" in 2010.

    Parent
    They may depend on SS and Medicare (none / 0) (#90)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:28:36 PM EST
    but they trooped to the polls in 2010 because they were scared about deficits and debts.

    Parent
    Politalkix - (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:36:51 PM EST
    I disagree.  I think the GOP ran as the protectors of Medicare and that's how they won.  I don't think it was the deficit.  I'll have to do some research later on the matter though...

    Parent
    The GOP ran numerous ads (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 10:03:39 PM EST
    to the effect that they would save Medicare from Obama. IIRC a few even ran on saving SS.

    Here are a few links on GOP Medicare ads: link , link

    Republicans campaigned on protecting seniors from Medicare cuts. No way around it. In the 2010 election campaign Republican groups ran millions and millions of dollars of ads promising not to cut Medicare, and to increase Social Security. They campaigned against Democrats for "cutting $500 billion from Medicare" and not increasing Social Security cost-of-living. As a result, for the first time the senior vote went to Republicans. link

    The Party of Medicare

    Parent

    More on Republicans and Medicare (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by MO Blue on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 07:05:34 AM EST
    WASHINGTON (AP) -- In a postelection reversal, House Republicans are supporting nearly $450 billion in Medicare cuts that they criticized vigorously last fall when Democrats and President Barack Obama passed them as part of their controversial health care law.

    The cuts are included in the 2012 budget that Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., unveiled last week and account for a significant share of the $5.8 trillion in claimed savings over the next decade.
    ...
    Ryan's spokesman, Conor Sweeney, said the cuts are virtually the only part of "Obamacare" -- the term that Republicans use derisively to describe the health care law enacted last year -- that the Wisconsin Republican preserved when he drafted his budget. link

    This is basically what I predicted. The Republicans will gut Obama's health insurance legislation of the few good pieces and maintain things like the cuts to Medicare.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:40:28 PM EST
    they didn't trope to the polls because of deficits. They troped to the polls because of the ACA.

    Parent
    They were scared that Obama was (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by MO Blue on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 07:19:34 AM EST
    going to take away their Medicare and Social Security and the Republicans ran on saving Medicare from Obama.

    Last fall, in their drive to win control of the House, Republicans were harshly critical of the Democrats on the issue of cuts to a program that benefits millions of seniors.

    "The new law's massive Medicare cuts will fall squarely on the backs of seniors, millions of whom will be forced off their current Medicare coverage," the GOP wrote in their Pledge to America, an election-season manifesto. In making the claim, Republicans cited the chief actuary at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid, which oversees both programs.

    In addition to the Pledge to America, House Speaker John Boehner, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor and individual Republican candidates all criticized the cuts.

    The National Republican Congressional Committee featured them in ads attacking Democrats in numerous campaign commercials, and some individual candidates made use of the cuts as well.
    ...
    Congresswoman Ann Kirkpatrick voted for Obamacare, costing us over $1 trillion and cutting Medicare for seniors," said an NRCC ad that ran during Rep. Paul Gosar's successful campaign in Arizona.

    Rep. Sanford Bishop "voted to cut Medicare for our senior citizens by $500 billion," the NRCC said in a commercial that was part of an unsuccessful attempt to defeat a long-term Georgia Democratic incumbent.

    "Let's save Medicare, and cut Schauer," the NRCC said in a third ad, this one part of a successful campaign in which Tim Walberg turned Rep. Mark Schauer, D-Mich., out of office. link

    Also, it was Obama's hand picked commission on the airways discussing their proposed cuts to Social Security benefits. The second ranking Democrat in the Senate, Durbin, publicly stating that he would vote for the cuts and Democrats in the House such as Rep. Clyburn on record stating that changing the retirement age to 70 would be just fine since many of his colleagues work to 70 and beyond.      


    Parent

    Maybe, but liberal ideas (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:09:33 PM EST
    on taxes, spending and the budget are hugely favored by the public.....

    It is a mystery how the Democrats cannot win on issues that the majority in this country support.

     

    Parent

    Which Democrats campaign (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:17:39 PM EST
    on these issues? That may answer your question.

    Parent
    Because (2.00 / 2) (#110)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:24:34 PM EST
    partisan alliances trump individual issues.

    Which is why dems, of all people should be pushing for the coutry to be less partisan.

    If the issues control, we win.

    If the team color controls we may not.

    Parent

    That's total horsesh**coming from you. (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by shoephone on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:59:15 PM EST
    You're the one touting party loyalty over issues in every single thread.

    Parent
    Markos convinced me of the (none / 0) (#116)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:39:33 PM EST
    value of partisanship.  Awhile ago, he cited some pretty good stats that showed that the most conservative Democrat votes more progressively than the most liberal Republican.

    So, being a partisan Democrat will yield better results than taking an issues only, nonpartisan/bipartisan approach.  That assumes, of course, that Democrats act/vote in a partisan way.

    Obama is tacking toward the Center.  The only way to prevent him from going there is if Democratic Senators stop him.  

    The Senate Democrats can threaten to filibuster ANY cuts to Medicare.  This assumes you have 41 of the 53 Dems willing to go along.  The Senate Dems need to do this.  Even if they don't have the spine to go the full Bernie Sanders, at least they could threaten to do it.

    P.S.  I am historically a huge Obama supporter here.

    Parent

    Eh... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:19:24 PM EST
    I think NC is probably gone.  OH is always a nailbiter.  I don't think of OH or its reps as reliably blue.

    I don't think "Simpson-Bowles" means anything to the American public.  Jobs and gas prices matter right now.  Deficit talk is always just a distraction.

    Parent

    You're right, but you know what? (none / 0) (#99)
    by sj on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:55:59 PM EST
    I don't think "Simpson-Bowles" means anything to the American public.  

    I've been rather surprised that some people who don't know a thing about "Simpson-Bowles" know quite a bit about the Catfood Commission.

    See how important marketing is?

    Parent

    Simpson/Bowles if implemented will (none / 0) (#173)
    by MO Blue on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 09:07:12 AM EST
    mean something to them if they are worried about gas prices.  Simpson/Bowles recommends raising the federal gas tax by 15 cents per gallon.

    Parent
    So Obama's looking out for #1 ... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:19:41 PM EST
    ... and forcing us to pull him left?

    Wow.

    Pretty craven.

    Parent

    He is going to the Center (none / 0) (#117)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:40:30 PM EST
    and will stop only if the Dems in the Senate make him.

    Parent
    Let's take these out of order a (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:44:07 PM EST
    little bit, and see where that takes us.

    And let's add one that really is going to, or should be, driving the whole thing:

    Let's move - for now - the #2 item to the top of the list.  As Democrats - many of us of the old-fashioned, FDR, liberal variety - moving policy to the left is important.  How do you do that?  Leadership.  The kind where, through strong advocacy that focuses on the positive aspects of liberal policy, you bring people over to your side.  You find small programs that work and you bring them into a larger arena.  You implement some liberal policies that will positively affect people's lives, which helps drive support for more of that kind of leadership.

    Okay, numbers 3 and 4 are related, and problematic, at least for me.  I think partisanship can be a very good thing.  On many issues, there simply isn't room to be anything but partisan.  Which means we have to pick and choose carefully those areas where we are willing to legitimize the Republican, conservative position.  I care a lot less about all of us minding our manners than I do that the policy we end up with in the end is the one that most resembles what most of us want.  We know it will never be a perfect world, we know we won't always win every time, but if policy is what matters, we keep at it and at it and at it until it works.

    Now, we're going to move leadership to the top of the list, because without it, there's a lot of floundering, mixed messaging, confusion, frustration and anger.

    Ask yourself, after a day when multiple messages were coming from various sources which seemed to have a WH origin, if the fact that most of us have no idea what the president wants, believes he should do, or thinks is best for the economic conditions, how it will ever be possible to achieve (1) keeping the WH and Congress, (2) moving policy to the left, and (3) not leave all of us, of all political persuasions, at each other's throats.

    What is the value of having the WH and Congress if those who hold those offices are not working in your interest?  What is the value in legitimizing policy you don't agree with, and/or think is bad for the country, if doing so makes it more likely that you will end up with bad policy?  What is the value of a Democratic administration and a Democratic majority in Congress if the "Democratic" part is just a token, just a fluke of party registration and not the embodiment of Democratic ideals?

    ABG, you may not like it when people describe the current policies as being well to the right of center, and firmly in the mold of Reagan or Rockefeller, but as long as you refuse to accept that they are, you might as well cross that #2 item off your list and make it #74.


    Parent

    He's not (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:50:37 PM EST
    even a Rockefeller Republican because at least Rockefeller Republicans were pro choice. he's more in the Reagan model.

    Parent
    Anne (none / 0) (#98)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:50:05 PM EST
    Please explain why people did not vote for these "Democratic ideals" in 1984 and 1988.
    I think people moved away from the New Deal economic foundation before politicians in the Democratic Party did. Bill Clinton re-invented the Democratic Party, made it more conservative while continuously blurrring the lines between the 2 parties. Al Gore kept repeating "lock box" about SS but people did not seem to particularly care. BHO got elected in 2008 after campaigning to blur the lines between red and blue America. In 2010, people seemed to care more about deficits and debts (particularly the elderly who should care more about SS and Medicare).
    You want the President to treat the electorate like little children and educate them about "good policy" ("you must eat the broccoli, it is good for your health"). Aren't you expecting too much from the President and have very low expectations from the electorate?

    Parent
    Nonsense (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by sj on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:03:52 PM EST
    I think people moved away from the New Deal economic foundation before politicians in the Democratic Party did.

    People didn't move away from it, they took it for granted.  

    Just like teapartiers do today.  "Government needs to stay out of our lives and stop taking our money.  Government is the problem.  Oh, and keep your hands off my Social Security".

    So it was a combination of taking it for granted and complete unawareness of the cognitive dissonance.  

    As far as the Gore lock-box thing goes, ponder this:  Madison Avenue makes billions for their clients using clever marketing.  Votes are just as susceptible as dollars to clever marketing.  I am not expecting too much to ask the President to use the bully pulpit to countermand that marketing.  Clinton did that very well.

    Parent

    Clinton (none / 0) (#104)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:12:34 PM EST
    blurred the line between the Democrats and Republicans. He almost sold himself as a compassionate Republican.

    Parent
    Talk about "blurring the line" ... (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:36:47 PM EST
    ... between reality and delusion.

    Funny how some people always try to make it about Clinton .

    Heh ...

    Parent

    What does that (3.00 / 2) (#112)
    by sj on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:32:34 PM EST
    have to do with what I said?  I am talking about how he used the bully pulpit.  I'm not saying I agreed with everything he said or did.  I am saying he knew how to talk to people.  How to make scary sounding things understandable.  

    He was darn good at making his case, too.  Even when I disagreed with him (NAFTA, for one) he made his case.  Communicated complex thoughts in simple sentences without talking down to people.  Or sermonizing.

    Parent

    Anne (none / 0) (#102)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:06:55 PM EST
    What do you prioritize?

    Moving the country left or solving the short term recession and unemployment issues?

    In other words, what if Obama believed (for better or worse) that he should make concessions for the short term benefit in order to sacrifice for the long term?  Or what if he believed the opposite and is sacrificing short term for the long term?

    I am fairly liberal but it often occurs to me that the liberal position may not be the optimal position for every single issue or problem. In other words, maybe, just maybe, defense spending is a stimulus in itself and slashing defense spending is going to result in thousands of military contractors being laid off. Maybe, just maybe, a showing of seriousness with respect to the deficit calms the markets and allows the them to take the coming hit we are going to see from the tragedy in Japan, the poor performance of the EU this summer, and the double dip housing market stagnation coming down the pike.

    In other words, what if the best solutions for a particular issue are not necessarily the liberal position in every situation.  I mean you have to admit that it's possible right?

    In that case, #2 really isn't written correctly.  Number 2 should be written as "doing what works to address short term problems while advancing towards a long term solution".  We liberals tend to think our ways are better both short and long term.  But when you are so wrapped up in promoting a certain agenda without question or caveat or even recognition that the other side may have an idea or two, you fall into the same traps that we accuse the GOP of falling into.

    I mean as much as it works as a rallying cry, I do not believe that most republicans believe as they do just to line the pockets of some rich wall street type. I believe that the bulk of them actually believe that their policies are best for the country. Is it so impossible to believe that they could be right occasionally or on some specific issue.

    I wrote #2 in that way because I had a sense that folks would latch onto it and accept it as primary.

    But the statement itself reflects the problem that I see with many of the comments here and the unfortunate demonization of anyone who dares to suggest that the far left viewpoint may not be exactly right.

    Something just strikes me as wrong about the fundamental starting place of a lot of the comments I read here. They are right on the substance in many ways, but there is something icky/wrong about the way they frame this whole business, including the Obama=Republican stuff.

    IMHO of course.

    Parent

    Moving the country left... (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:34:43 PM EST
    ...and implementing progressive economic policies WOULD solve the recession and employment problems. And this small thing called history has already proven that.  

    Selling it, however, requires imagination, clarity, unwavering resolve and unsparing humor.  Four things no politician in this country possesses.

    So...now what?  Just hope and pray that the money comes back like the swallows of Capistrano?


    Parent

    Number (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:44:51 PM EST
    3 is a huge problem. As someone who lives in the heat of Gopperland, I can tell you that ending partisanship is a namby pamby excuse to make a deal with the devil. The GOP is NOT going to deal with you no matter how hard you try. They need to be soundly and frequently defeated and sent running with their tails between their legs. If you believe in ending partisanship, then you believe that you can make a deal with the Taliban which is what today's GOP pretty much mimics in a lot of ways.

    Keeping the White House is fruitless with Obama in it. Someone who gives away the store constantly just isn't worth the effort. YOu will not be able to move policy leftward with Obama because he has completely bought into supply side voodoo economics.

    Number 4: Do you think that the Taliban has legitimate grips?

    You post shows the untenable box that Obama has put himself in with his fetish desire for bipartisanship.

    Parent

    Ga6thDem (none / 0) (#106)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:19:17 PM EST
    FYI:

    I am Ga13th but on the side that's closer to Gingrey's territory.

    Parent

    Is that north or south GA? (none / 0) (#107)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:21:26 PM EST
    I'm in north alabama for another month, then moving back to LA...lower Alabama.

    Parent
    Turns out I've spent a lot of time (none / 0) (#113)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:34:35 PM EST
    in both of those georgia districts.

    Parent
    Ok, I'm going to break my vow, only (none / 0) (#45)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:11:27 PM EST
    to say that point 3 is ahistorical and completely wrong-headed.
    If that criterion drives you, get HELP.
    #2 was a good laugh, too, because you define "possible" to mean "whatever Obama did yesterday".


    Parent
    #3 sounds good (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:19:11 PM EST
    But it assumes the GOP is motivated by Reason.  It is not.

    The Republicans respond to power.  Beat them, and then they will gladly agree with you.  They do this not because they see the error of their ways, but because as essentially authoritarian, they cannot stand to be in the minority or on the "losing" side.  They thus adapt.

    This is in the process of happening now on gay rights.  It is a painful process because the religious right will be weakened by it.

    Parent

    No, #3 is plain wrong. (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:42:25 PM EST
    As BTD says, people disagree.
    Republicans and Democrats disagree a great deal, at least in theory. The single biggest problem with our politics today is the insistence that political solutions be bipartisan. It's a dangerous fetishizing of  process over substance.

    Parent
    To your point, on gay rights (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:50:25 PM EST
    there has largely been no effort by gay rights advocates to compromise or find common ground.  They have not always won, and have lost many state-wide votes, and sometimes get just half of loaf such as civil unions.  

    But advance they do.  All the while never suggesting there were some acceptable middle ground.  Gay rights advocates are simply winning the argument.

    Parent

    Can you imagine a bipartisan (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:53:25 PM EST
    "solution" to the issue of interracial marriage in Miss. today? ( I assume you read the recent poll results on this subject).

    Parent
    Sure, we did that one before (none / 0) (#77)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:00:46 PM EST
    Remember the 3/5 compromise?

    As to the poll, the Tea Partiers were the most opposed to inter-racial marriage....Faulkner's writings are still relevant....Absalom, Absalom! lives.

    Parent

    There were three main components (none / 0) (#78)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:01:31 PM EST
    IMO that helped push through the DADT legislation.

    1. The unflinching and often very public stance of gay rights advocates

    2. Public opinion has changed drastically over the last couple of decades.

    3. The fact that gay rights advocates were winning the argument on DADT in the courts also helped force action on the legislation. It became apparent that legislation could allow the military to change policy on their time table after training etc. or the military would be forced to abruptly change their policy without any preparation due to court action.  


    Parent
    MKS (none / 0) (#109)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:23:31 PM EST
    makes a fair point.

    The GOP must distance itself from its most extreme members.  That has to be the concession Obama demands.

    Parent

    observed on #3 (none / 0) (#108)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:22:33 PM EST
    I disagree, and so do most of  moderate democrats and republicans and independents.

    Your argument is that partisanship is more beneficial?

    I have trouble seeing how someone can legitimately argue that point.

    When the day comes (and it will at some point) that conservatives control all branches, I think you will quickly remember the benefits of bipartisanship.

    The trick is that you have to advocate bipartisanship when you aren't  in power to actually effect meaningful change.

    If Obama is serious about this, it will be the first time that this has been tried I think.

    Parent

    I'll take a shot at it. (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by dk on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:40:09 PM EST
    Obama spent the first two years of his presidency being bi-partisan, and the Democrats suffered a bloodbath in the 2010 elections.  

    Parent
    Take another shot, dk (none / 0) (#124)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:52:48 PM EST
    The year is 1994. A new Democratic President spent the first 2 years of his Presidency trying to do things that apparently still sends tingles up the legs of the great majority in this blog.
    Please explain what happened in 1994. Was Clinton too partisan? Was he not partisan enough?

    Parent
    Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:09:04 PM EST
    was partisan and apparently that's not what made the losses happen. Obama has been bipartisan and had record losses.

    Clinton lost seats for a couple of reasons I think. 1 being the Brady Bill. 2. being the fact that many of the boll weevils retired and were replaced by Republicans which was already happening and 3, the party in power almost always loses seats in an off year election. I always resented during the primaries how Obama supporters were guaranteeing that Obama wouldn't lose seats in '10 if he was President. What a farce that turned out to be.

    Parent

    Your explanations get so convoluted (none / 0) (#135)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:17:36 PM EST
    every time that they do not make any sense to me any more.


    Parent
    You asked (none / 0) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:19:50 PM EST
    for reasons and you got them. What do you have to say about Obama's record blood bath then? One of the largest in the history of the country.

    Parent
    It is (none / 0) (#150)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 08:09:36 PM EST
    Impossible to evaluate the causes of the deems losses in 2010 without saying the words "economy" or "jobs" but people continuously try to do it.

    If unemployment was low, the deems would have won.  Obama had no chance to turn the economy around in less than 18 months so he lost. Bottom line. Other countries that injected more stimulus followed the same unemployment curve we did for the most part.

    He simply wasn't going to be able to do anything to fix the economy and the economy, when it is bad, dictates votes.

    That is fundamentally the answer.

    IMHO of course but I am feeling REALLY good about that opinion.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#153)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 08:29:43 PM EST
    and Obama spent very little time on the economy and a ton of time on trying to chase down votes for Bob Dole's health care plan. So the reason that no one bought Obama's arguments that it was Bush's fault was that he had done so little to help the situation.

    He could have made the situation better if he had gone out telling the voters how things were going to get better and what he was doing but this is not Obama's strong point so he went around screaming about how bad the GOP is all the while preaching about bi-partisanship. Talk about a confusing message.

    Parent

    But, but, BUT ... (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:12:27 PM EST
    ... CLINTON!

    Parent
    Right. But, Clinton got (5.00 / 4) (#136)
    by dk on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:18:07 PM EST
    the most progressive bill since LBJ's term enacted (tax increases for the wealthy, lower taxes for the working poor) and Obama got nothing.

    That bolsters my argument.  If there's going to be a bloodbath no matter what, you might as well get results from it.

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:21:23 PM EST
    and when you do the right thing it pays off in the end even if you have to take losses initially from it.

    Obama for some unknown reason wants to continue Bush's economic policies after talking about how they destroyed the country in '08.

    Parent

    It is a matter of perception (none / 0) (#145)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:42:13 PM EST
    Different people have very different ideas about "the most progressive bill", "nothing"
    etc. Let us just leave it at that.

    Parent
    Bingo! Exactly right. (none / 0) (#125)
    by shoephone on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:54:26 PM EST
    But a bloodbath occured in the 1994 elections (none / 0) (#128)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:57:52 PM EST
    Not the bloodbath (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:10:47 PM EST
    Obama has given the party. The party is in worse shape after Obama than it has been since Carter. Expect a repeat of '80 in the Senate in '12 but I imagine the Presidential election will be closer much like Carter/Ford in '76.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#127)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:57:45 PM EST
    He spent a year and a half pushing across the most partisan piece of legislation in recent history and then he paid the price for Bush's economy. Then he was forced to concede a bunch of stuff.

    That's how it looks from here.

    But your view of Obama in general depends on whether  you see health care reform as a massive leap forward or just a way of making insurance companies more money.

    You don't have to agree with my views on that but at least respect the idea that a positive view of ACA alone could change how you view his entire presidency.

    If you are me, he could have passed that and done little else on the progressive agenda and still been a success from a liberal perspective.  If you told me we'd be reducing the budget slightly and keeping taxes on the rich but in exchange you'd get a mandate driven healthcare system that covers 98% of the population, I'd have taken that deal.

    That's how big it was for me and that's why, to some degree, I'll never be on the same page as many here.  I think hen 2014, 2015, and 2016 a lot of folks who gave Obama grief are going to understand how big a deal it was.

    Parent

    I agree with you on that ABG. (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by dk on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:23:26 PM EST
    If you actually view the health insurance company support bill as meaningful progressive legislation, I could understand why you argue the way you do.  I think you're wrong, of course, for all the reasons that were put forth on this blog and elsewhere when the bill was on the front burner.

     

    Parent

    The Obama/'94 Republican plan ... (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:47:35 PM EST
    ... was the "most partisan piece of legislation in recent history"?

    Heh.

    BTW - "covers 98% of the population"?  Not when they can't afford it, with a bill that does nothing to contain costs and little to help people pay for insurance they can't afford.  You know that the number of uninsured is at a record high, right?

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#151)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 08:13:56 PM EST
    Given the environment, yes.  It was. The opposition to reform was waaaaaay higher than it was in the 90's because the parties are far more partisan now than they were then.

    The playing field changed.  It is stupid to pretend that it has not. Just as it is easier to make positive moves with things such as gay marriage, it is harder to do other things.  The country is not static and the Internet and dollars behind the lobbies changes what we consider partisan at will.

    It is clearly fluid.

    Parent

    Hahahahahaha .... (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 09:51:24 PM EST
    Given the environment, yes.  It was. The opposition to reform was waaaaaay higher than it was in the 90's because the parties are far more partisan now than they were the.

    The playing field changed.  It is stupid to pretend it has not.

    OMG - I have seen a lot of silly, ridiculous, illogical, fact-free, baseless, insipid statements - and you have just reached the pinnacle.

    Truly, a master of the genre.

    Parent

    Since my reply has nothing to do with (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 08:21:45 PM EST
    Obama directly, let me reply... Last night I meant to say I wouldn't be talking politics-- saying hello, or non Obama subjects, no problem,

    the 73rd Congress had  a senate with 58-60 democratic senators (number changed due to vacancies). It wasn't until the 74th congress that a "veto-proof majority (2/3 of the senate by the rules in 1933-1935)." In the House, 311 members were democrats. That number increased to 322 in the 74th congress.

    So... no bloodbath with a terrible economy in 1935, the midst of the Great Depression. Maybe the voters had seen the White House and Congress do things to improve employment, foreclosures, etc...

    Parent

    By contrast, the 80th Congress, (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 08:35:30 PM EST
    known as the "do nothing Congress:"

    Senate: 51 republicans, 45 democrats.

    House: 244 republicans, 184 democrats.

    passed almost none of Truman's "Fair Deal" legislation Taft-Hartley passed over Truman's veto.

    The 81st Congress:

    Senate: 43 republicans, 53 democrats

    House: 171 republicans, 263 democrats.

    I think if the last congress had passed some legislation, job-creating legislation, the 2010 outcome would have been different. But, as the saying goes, "The president proposes, the congress disposes." There really wasn't a jobs bill in the last congress.

    Parent

    Jeff, I saw in an earlier comment that (none / 0) (#155)
    by caseyOR on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 08:47:34 PM EST
    you are reading about the anarcho-syndicalists from the Spanish Civil War. While in high school I discovered Emma Goldman, and I was hooked. Over the years I've done a fair amount of reading on anarchism and would love to know what specifically you are currently reading. If you don't mind sharing, of course.

    Thanks. :-)

    Parent

    Hey, Casey, (none / 0) (#158)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 09:26:18 PM EST
    I've been looking into biographies lately of anarchists in general, Kropotkin and Bakunin in particular, and their influence. I've also been tracing anarcho-syndicalism through online memoirs of Spanish Civil War veterans.

    Did you know that, by the beginning of the Spanish Civil War, out of 26 million Spaniards, 1.4 million adult Spaniards were registered anarcho-syndicalists?

    I'll shoot you an email with some web links and book titles!

    Parent

    My uncle (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 12:43:42 AM EST
    who was not an anarcho-syndicalist but a flat-out communist, fought in the Spanish Civil war.  When he got back, his passport was canceled and he lost his right to vote for years.  When the U.S. entered WWII, he and his comrades weren't allowed in the U.S. military because they were deemed -- get this -- "premature anti-fascists."  Heh.  So my uncle and many of the others joined the Merchant Marines and served insanely hazardous duty in the South Pacific.

    It's called among some the "Good war," and there are a number of suburb documentaries about it with many of the then surviving SCW vets.  Not many of them left now, though.

    Incredibly bunch of tough, tough, tough old geezers.

    Parent

    Your uncle is a hero (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 12:53:37 AM EST
    who broke his own country's laws to fight against fascism. I've been examining that war for some months now, which has led me to anarcho syndicalism... more on this later!


    Parent
    Oops, almost 2.8 million (none / 0) (#159)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 09:43:10 PM EST
    anarcho-syndicalists, out of 28 million total population...huge numbers.

    Parent
    Thanks, Jeff. I'll keep an eye (none / 0) (#163)
    by caseyOR on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 11:31:29 PM EST
    out for the email.

    I've recently come to read about the Spanish Civil War. It started with reading about the Basque Country; which led to Guernica; which led to the Spanish Civil War.

    I did not know that so many Spaniards were registered anarcho-syndicalists.

    That's what U.S. politics needs- an anarcho-syndicalist party. Where do I sign up?

    Parent

    "No Tsar, No President.... (none / 0) (#171)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 08:45:25 AM EST
    No King!"

    They called her the most dangerous woman in America...and that makes me a huge freakin' fan.

    God Save the Memory of Emma Goldman.

    Parent

    Ashamed to say (none / 0) (#200)
    by sj on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 03:47:39 PM EST
    that I'd never heard of her til I discovered this place:

    But I thought Mother Jones was the most dangerous woman in America (link to audio book of her biography via Corrente).

    Parent

    You (4.00 / 4) (#134)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:13:26 PM EST
    call Bob Dole's healthcare reform partisan? Well, I guess it is partisan. It is partisan republican legislation. He spent 18 months chasing the Maine twins to no avail desperately trying to get them to vote for it.

    Parent
    Health care reform/Health Insurance Reform (none / 0) (#141)
    by Politalkix on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:31:19 PM EST
    is extremely partsian to half the country. It does not matter whether the legislation being crafted is good or bad; simply, any talk of bringing HCR to the table drives half the population up a wall(just as any talk of
    bringing SS to the table turns most of you mad).

     

    Parent

    Sure, except that's not true. (5.00 / 5) (#143)
    by dk on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:39:32 PM EST
    Before the Democrats caved on meaningful reform, polls showed that almost 70% of Americans wanted a government admnistered insurance option that would be available to all Americans.


    Parent
    That's why (none / 0) (#144)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:41:20 PM EST
    he made a huge mistake with it. If he had passed things like insurance couldn't deny preexisting conditions at first it would have been an easier sell. He missed the KISS principle and made it much harder than it had to be.

    Parent
    Average Democrat (none / 0) (#57)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:36:30 PM EST
    From the most recent polls: PPP found that 87% Democrats approved of the job that President Obama is doing. The most recent polls, such as WSJ/NBC, are similar. Again, those are the only data points that I have seen. (A gentle pushback.)

    Parent
    You really (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:47:05 PM EST
    need strongly approve and strongly disapprove to get the intensity. There's a lot of people who'll say they support Obama somewhat to a pollster apparently. With these "big picture" polls they don't get into all the details. The last poll I saw had Obama at a -20 intensity rating i.e. the people who strongly disliked him had a 20 point advantage over the ones that like him.

    Parent
    Intensity ratings are significant (none / 0) (#84)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:12:14 PM EST
    for offyear elections for voter motivation, In presidential elections, tho, not so much. When more vote, as in the general, "somewhat" support counts.

    Parent
    May I please interject my view? (5.00 / 4) (#126)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:57:14 PM EST
    I have no argument with some polls, some being far more accurate than others obviously. Framing is, IMO, the most important factor. "Do you approve, or disapprove, of tax cuts?" The answer, of course, would be overwhelmingly, Yes. But, if the question asked, "Do you approve, or disapprove, of tax cuts if your savings would be 10 cents while the rich banker's savings would be $100,000, and would result in huge deficits leading to laying off teachers, firemen, police officers, etc?"  obviously, a different result.

    George Bush used the first approach....... just dangled the candy. The republicans are doing the same on many issues today. How we respond to these insidious, reprehensible tactics is the job of our Leadership

    It's not even very hard, and yet, we're not getting it.

    Remember Clinton's Rapid Response Squad (Ole Snakehead, Carville?)

    But, forget all that. I'm sure my comments here weren't a revelation for you, and I realize you weren't implying any such thing by pointing out PPP's results. The point I'd like to make is, those poll numbers are meaningless in the context of my unhappiness with Mr. Obama. If Pres. Obama advocated smoking as a reasonable activity for our country's youth, and approval for that position scored 90% in a respected poll would that be prima facie evidence to jump aboard that bandwagon?

    That's why poll numbers are totally irrelevant in molding my opinion of the job that B. Obama is doing. His performance in office is unnecessarily hurting millions and millions of people who don't deserve that fate.

    And no poll number can feed a hungry citizen plunged into poverty due, in large measure, to Barack Obama's indifference. That a good politician can obfuscate the factors & issues causing the citizen's pain is not, in my opinion, a very noble use of a candidate's talents.

    Parent

    The purpose of a poll (none / 0) (#130)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:02:14 PM EST
    is not to change an individual's opinion but to show where an individual's opinion falls in comparison to others.

    It was way of gauging how commonly accepted your opinion is compared to the opinion of your fellow man in the only way possible outside of a vote.

    Many commenters here base have stated that Obama has betrayed core democratic ideals and will pay the price for that betrayal.

    Polls allow us to put those unsubstantiated comments to somewhat of a litmus test based in real evidence.

    That's all.

    Parent

    Well, thank you (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:22:57 PM EST
    for that response, but it was unnecessary, no, really.

    Maybe you didn't quite "pick up," or maybe I didn't quite explain the point clearly enough. I was attempting to expand the discussion beyond simple, empirical data.

    Your explanation is certainly true enough, and yet, meaningless to me for the larger issue of why we vote in the first place. Do we vote simply as fans to get our "star" elected? Or, do we vote to get policies important to us promoted, and hopefully, implemented?

    Parent

    Actually, one-shot polls (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:35:45 PM EST
    reflect the attitude of the respondent at the time the poll was taken. One cannot infer from a one-shot poll that the person has knowlege of the subject matter, is one of the designers of the legislation, or is simply glad that some agreement was reached, irrespective of the agreement.

    I teach this stuff, and it's actually quite complex, not just to do, but to analyze correctly.

    Attitudinal polls are inherently weak demonstrators. Sad but true. If one tracked the same cohort for a few weeks, that poll could offer more insight. But comparing one randomly selected poll this week to another next week doesn't offer much, even for comparison, since there's no way to examine whether people who originally answed approve change to undecided or disapprove.

    Parent

    Over, at another site (none / 0) (#177)
    by NYShooter on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:20:28 AM EST
    there was a discussion regarding the, admittedly fantasy, "intellectual means testing" voters as requirements for voting. The idea, of course, is that voters should be required to, at least, understand the issues they're voting on.

    Well, along with that fantasy, I would go a step further and require something similar regarding polling. Everyone here understands that most polls are skewed one way or another in the way questions are asked making the results suspect. The example I use is, "Do you want to see taxes lowered?" Then follow with, "Do you understand that lowering taxes will lead to budget shortfalls, deficits, higher interest rates, and loss of jobs?"
     

    Parent

    A poll is not a substitute for actual knowledge (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 09:14:31 PM EST
    on the issues, nor is it meant to substitute for what you are hearing or reading from people with whom you are engaged in discussion and debate.  What I or anyone else here tell you about what we think or believe is not an "unsubstantiated comment," for crying out loud.  Your penchant for dismissing someone's opinion because some poll says something different is just offensive - and one of the reasons you get the negative reactions you so often do.

    A poll is also not a substitute for leadership: "gauging how commonly accepted your opinion is" is the stuff of teenagers, agonizing over whether what they are wearing is as cool as what everyone else is wearing - it should not be how people make decisions about policy.  If all you care about is what everyone else is thinking, you are some variety of sheep.

    A lot of what is wrong with this country is that there are too many people who have a "gee, I wonder what I should think about this?  Oh, I know, I'll look at a poll!"


    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#172)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 08:57:29 AM EST
    I think issue polls are weird.  The healthcare debate led to a number of conflicting and confusing issue polls.  And whether or not the President heeds a particular poll is entirely up to him; it's not clear that the Admin does so consistently, and besides, they have their own internal polling on things we don't see to boot.

    Or take the poll Kevin Drum cites in his article, "Americans Hate Everyone."  Is that a useful poll?  Should we hack away at the federal government's power?

    Boehner won this round because the actual reductions on the table were never made concrete. (In fact, they're still trying to figure out exactly which line items are going to be cut.) However, when it comes to something big and well known, like Medicare, this dynamic shifts in the opposite direction and Boehner will almost certainly be on the losing side of public opinion if he tries to push for big cuts. Political strategy matters in all this, but public opinion matters even more. That's the main reason Boehner won this round and it's the main reason he'll lose the next one if he overreaches.

    Public opinion can be changed (or manipulated, if you prefer).  Just ask the GOP if you don't believe me.

    Parent

    Elegantly stated, NYShooter (none / 0) (#162)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 10:19:14 PM EST
    And, you are correct in that my referrence to polls means no more than referring to the currently measured state of things...not what you should think, only what is out there at the time of the measurement. (As always, the what & how an opinion is "measured" is a central point in any such discussion.)

    Polls can be worthwhile, for perspective on the state of play on a given issue. As you state, they cannot replace the powerful thoughts & feelings unique to each of us.

    Parent

    Elections are what, 18 months off? (none / 0) (#87)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:19:38 PM EST
    I think it's silly to examine polls today and thinking the will be the same in a year and a half.

    Parent
    Somewhat (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:43:21 PM EST
    counts when it gets to "likely voters" closer to the election. Right now they don't mean much because you don't know whether these people are going to actually show up or not.

    Parent
    Thanks for the shout out (none / 0) (#148)
    by BTAL on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 07:02:01 PM EST
    GA6th!  

    I might need to study ABG's style a bit closer.  ;-)

    Parent

    Greek recipes (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Zorba on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:11:29 PM EST
    For anyone who is interested, I have posted two Greek recipes- for tzatziki sauce and for avgolemono soup.  Check the Monday Afternoon Open Thread, or look in my comments for the above two subjects.  Καλή όρεξη!  (Bon appétit)

    They look marvelous! (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:12:12 PM EST
    What time should I be there (hint hint)?

    Parent
    Once summer shows up... (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:34:16 PM EST
    or at least spring, I plan on whipping up some of that tzatziki action for some BBQ lamb kebobs.

    It won't be as good as Mama Z's famous, but I'll bet my brownies have more kick...c'mon up!

    Parent

    I just (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:12:58 PM EST
    got them. Thanks a million!!!

    Parent
    Cool, I have been making my (none / 0) (#10)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:17:51 PM EST
    own avgolemono recently---at least a simple version.

    Parent
    Thanks for the recipes (none / 0) (#17)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:39:32 PM EST
    Iranians have a much simpler version of Tzatziki that my son-in-law often prepares which I enjoy, particularly in the summer.  I will have to try your recipe.

    I'm getting addicted to Greek yogurt and it is fast becoming the only yogurt that I buy. The types I buy are without a lot of those nasty additives that a lot of low fat yogurts contain.  

    Parent

    I've been buying Stony something (none / 0) (#18)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:41:46 PM EST
    yoghurt, which is organic and very tasty.
    I also can't abide low-fat anymore. It's just so nasty compared to the real thing.

    Parent
    Stonyfield... (none / 0) (#20)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:45:02 PM EST
    and if you like that, I would recommend trying Brown Cow whole milk yogurt (not organic).

    Parent
    Ok, I think I have seen that in stores. (none / 0) (#23)
    by observed on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:48:22 PM EST
    Chobani greek - very good (none / 0) (#27)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:51:36 PM EST
    Zorba's homemade (none / 0) (#31)
    by Zorba on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:56:33 PM EST
    Also very good.   ;-)  (You just make regular, whole milk yogurt and then strain it- that is, drain in a colander lined with cheesecloth.)

    Parent
    I will second Zorba's homemade... :-) (none / 0) (#36)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:58:41 PM EST
    Store bought greek yogurt tastes chalky to me.

    Parent
    I've been buying that lately (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:07:27 PM EST
    It is really good. I love Brown Cow too, but they don't carry it in my local store. Had to pick it up at Whole Foods when I happened by there, which is not often. Local store just last month got the Chobani, which I had never heard of. Tried it and really liked it. Very creamy, not as sweet as Dannon,etc.

    Parent
    Most Greeks (none / 0) (#25)
    by Zorba on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:51:09 PM EST
    Also make a somewhat simpler version- Greek yogurt, cukes, garlic, dill, lemon juice, olive oil, salt and pepper.  The other additions are ones we have come up with over the years and are not, strictly speaking, traditional.  They're good, though.   ;-)

    Parent
    He uses smaller Persian cucumbers (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:14:35 PM EST
    They are referred to as gourmet cucumbers in some stores. I would bet that he uses lime juice rather than lemon juice since that is the standard Iranian substitution for lemon juice when they make dishes that are similar to other ethnic groups.

    Indians also make a similar yogurt - cucumber - spice dish. It tastes good but in the restaurant versions I've tried, the yogurt is much thinner which I do not like.  

    Parent

    This is the version I make. (none / 0) (#33)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 01:57:00 PM EST
    Had not seen a version with mayo in it before but will definitely try it.

    Parent
    As I said, (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Zorba on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:13:21 PM EST
    not really "traditional," but a little mayo and a little sour cream makes the tzatziki creamier and richer tasting.  We're not above adding different things to "traditional" Greek recipes.  

    Parent
    Oh thank you! (none / 0) (#80)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:04:49 PM EST
    I will definitely try the tzatziki. Love that stuff!

    Parent
    Courtesy of... (5.00 / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:36:15 PM EST
    my main man Alex Jones, TSA still groping kids, in case you were wondering. I thought they were putting a stop to that nonsense?

    Props to whoever risked arrest to film it.

    That is really, really sick (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by sj on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:44:49 PM EST
    That is a criminal act being carried out in public.

    I watched it without sound at work.  Don't know if it's more or less terrible with sound.

    Parent

    No sound as well... (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:56:26 PM EST
    can't imagine it being any worse with audio.

    And yeah, sick is the only word to describe it.  I can only assume verbal resistance would be considered an "inappropriate remark", which I was informed at GHW Bush Int'l Houston can also lead to your arrest.

    Land of the free, Home of the Brave?  Not in a long time Jack, if ever.

    Parent

    Disgusting (none / 0) (#111)
    by star on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 04:32:17 PM EST
    What did she expect to find along the band of the little kids jeans? my 8 year old would be terribly embarrassed by anyone touching him so :(

    Parent
    Anecdotal evidence re Newark airport: (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 05:14:24 PM EST
    line to go through metal detector was longer than line to go through scanner so TSA person directed me to scanner, but changed mind to let me go through metal detector.  That's what I call random selection!

    Parent
    Anybody with birth certificate issues... (5.00 / 0) (#92)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:38:40 PM EST
    should just claim they were born in Louisiana, and the state wouldn't provide a birth certificate because your mom refuse to answer their prying personal questions.

    Give 'em hell ACLU!

    150 years ago today the Civil War (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by caseyOR on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 09:03:03 PM EST
    began. The first shot of the Civil War, the attack on Fort Sumter, was fired 150 years ago today.

    A century and a half has gone by, and we are still fighting that war. No, we are not literally pitting two armies against each other, but the battle lines that have been drawn in our country arose from that war.

    I don't have any brilliant insights to offer. Maybe because I grew up in Illinois where we were immersed in the story of Lincoln and, thus, the story of the Civil War, I have always been fascinated by that particular time in U.S. history, and by the ways we have never put it to rest.

    There's (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 05:50:49 AM EST
    a lot of myths regarding that war that still are alive in the south and it's one of the reasons that we're still fighting it. Here in the south people refuse to admit that they lost the war and whenever I point that out, they get all huffy about it. People down here think that the Civil War ruined "their way of life" People think that they all were going to be the plantation owners and not the poor sharecroppers that were used by the plantation owners.

    Parent
    Interesting poll about this (none / 0) (#170)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 08:40:14 AM EST
    I always thought the (none / 0) (#175)
    by brodie on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 09:44:04 AM EST
    Ken Burns PBS documentary missed a chance to be more of a true learning moment, not to necessarily blame one person for the lack of public understanding of history, but it was a landmark tv doc that is again being shown on pub tv and has presumably been used in many classrooms over the years.  

    He gets 10 hrs or so on a major nat'l network to tell the story about the CW but spends the bulk of it (iirc, it's been 20 yrs since I viewed the whole thing) going heavily into the military leaders and strategy aspects, the personal soldier's story (diaries and letters home), as well as the human suffering on the battlefield.  

    Fine, but in devoting all that time primarily to those matters, the matter of why the war started and was fought, as well as the outcome in an unsuccessful Reconstruction leading to Jim Crow, got muddled in the first instance and relegated to a few minutes in the latter.

    Parent

    Cold Moutain (none / 0) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:07:32 AM EST
    is one of the best books I've ever read on the Civil War. Growing up in the south I never knew about how the confederacy sent around squads to torture people who ran away because from the confederate army.

    The irony is that the poor whites suffered so much for what was really a rich man's war and to this day many still can't admit that.

    Parent

    on one hand I love this (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:09:22 AM EST
    on the other it makes me ill:

    People Think Head Scars Prove Obama's Had Brain Surgery

    He has been plagued with questions and doubts concerning his background throughout his first term as President.

    Questions like - is Barack Obama actually American? Is he a Muslim? Is he actually an alien from another planet? - have frequently been asked.

    ftr
    "people" also think Fox Nation is a bunch of inbred morans.


    Where's the proof (none / 0) (#197)
    by NYShooter on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:34:14 AM EST
     "Is he actually an alien from another planet?"

    No, no, no, not the "certificate," I wanna see the actual document.

    Parent

    Tribe signs letter to Pres. Obama (none / 0) (#73)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:54:36 PM EST
    (printed in "The Guardian") criticizing conditions of Manning's detention.  See Greenwald's Monday post.  

    Pardon me Officer... (none / 0) (#89)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 03:26:41 PM EST
    but if you felt violated, imagine how the guy you left beaten, pistol-whipped, clubbed, and pepper-sprayed bleeding from his busted head on the pavement felt?

    Because (none / 0) (#147)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 06:54:52 PM EST
    I just can't get enough of Alan Simpson finishing his diatribe by talking about who I assume to be Newt Gingrich on Hardball

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by chrisvee on Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 07:38:39 PM EST
    I loved his comments about my former Senator Man on Dog.

    Parent
    If only he has the same candor... (none / 0) (#198)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:38:02 AM EST
    ...when it comes to honestly talking about the financial thievery masquerading as an economy that we live in.  But no, on economics, he simply sees no evil when it is all around him, and instead tells the poor to repeat after him: Meow Mix, Meow Mix, Meow Mix...

    Parent
    Is anybody (none / 0) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 09:24:29 AM EST
    else feeling just horribly demoralized today?

    yes (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:38:23 AM EST
    that was me yesterday (none / 0) (#201)
    by sj on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 04:00:37 PM EST
    one to watch (none / 0) (#178)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:37:52 AM EST
    You (none / 0) (#181)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:42:34 AM EST
    aren't kidding about watching him. I probably agree with him more than I do Obama ironically.

    Of course, this guy has zero chance of winning the GOP primary unfortunately.

    Parent

    not so sure (none / 0) (#183)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:45:08 AM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:47:43 AM EST
    how many Republicans are going to admit that Iraq was the wrong thing to do? Or are going to think the drug war is insane? Well, maybe on the drug war there are some libertarian types that he might get.

    This guy is like the anti-bush with a party that's still in love with Bush.

    Parent

    the primary could be tough (none / 0) (#186)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:48:49 AM EST
    true.  but he could attract a lot of free thinkers.  calling KDog.

    I also agree with a lot of what he says.

    Parent

    Vote for him in a heartbeat... (none / 0) (#189)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:05:10 AM EST
    his understanding of the drug war epic fail and the courage to speak the truth on that front alone puts him head and shoulders above any other potential candidate.

    And unlike many other former office holders who admit the epic fail only after their term is up, Johnson said the same things as Governor.

    But I don't thing the GOP would ever allow him to get the nom...he's gotta go Indy or Libertarian Party if he wants to be on a November 2012 ballot.

    Parent

    He could be the Democrat primary challenger (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:19:17 AM EST
    for Obama... He's more liberal than BHO is, and more pragmatic.

    Let's see if we can convince him to swithc parties. Hell, we should be used to a DINO president by now.

    Parent

    Gary Johnson might sound (none / 0) (#193)
    by brodie on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:19:41 AM EST
    reasonable for some of us libs on things like drug legalization/decrim or serious Defense budget cuts and getting US troops out of Afghan and Iraq now, but on some other things the guy can be as wacky as some of the RWers.  

    Such as his seeming obsession with budget balancing even in a recessionary period.  He wants to cut not just $39b from the annual budget, but the exact amount  -- $1.3trillion or so -- it takes to get squarely in balance.

    And yes, that includes for him major cuts to SS, Medicare and Medicaid.

    Parent

    all true (none / 0) (#194)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:21:30 AM EST
    but I think the response in this thread shows what a threat he could be.

    Parent
    Also on abortion, (none / 0) (#196)
    by brodie on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:31:05 AM EST
    he sounds like someone sorta halfway supportive of choice and of the pro-lifers.  According to this site, he's for some basic right to choose, early on, but thinks Roe goes too far and laws in this area should be left to the states.  

    Also a constitutional originalist.

    Sorry all you GJ fans -- no sale for me.  He sounds like a complicated libertarian-Republican of the Ron Paul peculiar variety -- i.e. someone who's really good in one or two areas, and really really bad in several others ...

    Parent

    But if we surrender.... (none / 0) (#195)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:27:01 AM EST
    the numerous wars and occupations, and the massive cuts are focused on tyranny spending first, a hardcore fiscal conservative pay as you go stance wouldn't be so bad, if the spending that actually helps people is the last we look to cut.  Big if I know.

    No candidate is gonna promote everything you or I would like on every issue, I think his positives far outweigh his negatives.  Compared to Obama or Romney or Huckabee, he's a home run.

     

    Parent

    meaning (none / 0) (#184)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:46:01 AM EST
    I could see it coming down to a duel between him and the crazies.  in that scenario I think he might just win.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#187)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:49:17 AM EST
    that's how I thought Romney might win the primary. I'm sure this guy could eclipse Pawlenty who no one cares about but can he get past the tea partiers? I guess if they split which is entirely possible because they have so many candidates like Bachmann and now Santorum to vote for.

    Parent
    hmmmm (none / 0) (#180)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:41:27 AM EST
    But the Gallup results show that Obama's approach to call for both tax hikes and entitlement cuts will resonate as a reasonable compromise unless Republicans continue to show leadership on the federal budget.  It's a real danger of overplaying the hand, especially now that Obama has suddenly re-embraced his own deficit commission.


    I think (none / 0) (#182)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 10:44:03 AM EST
    people would take entitlement cuts if and only if we quit building an empire.

    Parent
    State prison recidivism rates (none / 0) (#191)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 11:11:01 AM EST
    More than 4 in 10 offenders nationwide return to state prison within 3 years (for either new crimes or violations of parole) of their release, despite massive spending increases. That number - around 40% - has been consistent across studies and several decades.

    But it's an interesting study.


    I am so shocked that the BYU honor (none / 0) (#199)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 02:36:55 PM EST
    code only exists for black male athletes having sex with white girls.....I'm JUST SHOCKED....NOT :)  I've been to Utah.  I know how this works :)