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Some Progressives Think "The Market" Can "Save" Medicare; Some Do Not

Two reactions to a David Brooks column from the progressive side remind me of the deep divide on policy regarding health insurance amongst progressives and Democrats; a divide that Ed Kilgore detailed back during the "public option/exchanges" debate. First Dean Baker:

The fourth [Ryan and Brooks'] belief assumes that there are no areas where the government can possibly do things better than the market. Ryan and Brooks may not understand this point, so I will explain.

If the government can provide a service like health care insurance or retirement pensions more efficiently than the private sector, as a vast body of evidence suggests [. . . then] Ryan['s] Medicare proposal would add more than $30 trillion to the country's health care costs over Medicare's 75-year planning period. This amount, which reflects the pure increase in costs, not the shift from the government to beneficiaries, is almost 6 times the projected shortfall in the Social Security program.

(Emphasis supplied.) Now read Ezra Klein:

Take, for instance, [Brooks'] explanation of Paul Ryan’s approach to Medicare and Medicaid. Ryan, Brooks says, believes that “health care costs will not be brought under control until consumers take responsibility for their decisions and providers have market-based incentives to reduce prices.” It’s true that Ryan does believe that. But it’s not true that that’s what’s worrying so many about his budget proposal.

(Emphasis supplied.) Ezra Klein is the virtual spokesman for the those who believe that what ails the health insurance market can be fixed by "the market." Dean Baker speaks for those who believe`"the government can provide a service like health care insurance or retirement pensions more efficiently than the private sector, as a vast body of evidence suggests."

Ezra Klein represents that group of progressives who do not believe that expanding public health insurance programs is the best reform. They believe in "market reform," in exchanges.

The competing critiques of the Ryan Plan on Medicare reflects this continuing policy disagreement. No one is a "bad" person for believing one thing or another (most progressives disagree with me on free trade, I do not think that makes me a bad person), but it is important to make sure that we understand that there is in fact a vast gulf in the policy views of progressives on health reform. As Kilgore put it:

For those of us whose primary interest is progressive unity and political success for the Democratic Party, it's very tempting to downplay or even ignore this potential fault-line and the left-right convergence it makes possible. It's also easy to dismiss critics-from-the-left of Obama as people primarily interested in long-range movement-building rather than short-term political success; that's true for some of them. But sorting out these differences in ideology and perspective is, in my opinion, essential to the progressive political project.

Speaking for me only

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    Ezra Klein (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Dadler on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 09:56:34 AM EST
    Is ignorant.  He simply lacks the life experience to have ANY use as a commenter.  Had he, for instance, grown up on welfare in the ghetto, then he'd probably have enough life experience to say something, even if I didn't agree with it, of merit.  As it stands, he is a fool.  Markets are first and foremost about profit, about making the most by spending the least.  Government ain't perfect, but the "market" is neither free nor, very often, an actual market.  A rigged game is what almost everything like that is in this economy.

    But.. but.. Singapore!! (none / 0) (#2)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 09:58:47 AM EST
    I used to live in Singapore (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by Demi Moaned on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:24:18 AM EST
    And there's a huge social safety net there.

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#114)
    by cal1942 on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:44:03 PM EST
    Ezra Klein is a youngster who hasn't shaken his youthful penchant for fantasy.

    Parent
    Re: Upton Sinclair (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:09:41 AM EST

    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"



    The Klein "market" approach (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:10:28 AM EST
    to lower health care costs is basically to make actual health care so expensive that only people like him can afford it.

    Of course, that ignores the fact that people who cannot access affordable health care use the more expensive Emergency Room services. I guess removing the requirement that hospital's ER treat people without the means to pay for services will be next on the chopping block.

    The Swiss Approach (2.00 / 1) (#16)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:37:41 AM EST
    Has been implemented, covered everyone in that country and kept the Swiss healthcare costs below our own.

    How do you fit that fact within the predictions you are making.

    Shorter: We do not have to speculate about how one of these hybrid plans would work.  There is an existing model with existing data outputs that answer the question for us.

    That data says something a bit different than what you are stating.

    Parent

    The single payer model (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:39:53 AM EST
    has been demonstrated to provide the most efficient outcomes.

    The data is conclusive on this point.

    Parent

    You get no argument from me there (2.00 / 1) (#23)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:56:44 AM EST
    But back here in the real world, th single payer model is impossible and in fact, advocating for it makes it less likely that we will obtain a model that actually achieves our primary objectives.

    As I say almost weekly now, the primary distinction between the the Klein Liberal and the BTD Liberal is their belief in what is possible and what strategies should be implemented with those possibilities in mind, not the basic ideology.

    Bottom line: If you asked Klein what he would prefer, he'd say french style system.  If you ask him what approach liberals should be pressing the hardest because it has the best chance, I think he'd say a hybrid system.

    Parent

    Oh Geez (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:59:25 AM EST
    your motto should be "we can't".

    How hard would it be to open up Medicare?

    Parent

    Question (none / 0) (#98)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 04:49:13 PM EST
    Why didn't John Edwards or Hillary Clinton run with the slogan "Medicare for All" during the primaries in 2008? Why didn't Hillary go with "Medicare for All" in 1993 if it was so simple?

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 06:25:33 PM EST
    neither one ran with Medicare for all. They just said they were going to open up Medicare for people who wanted to get in and people who wanted to say in private insurance could.

    Parent
    Of course it is not possible now (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:01:11 AM EST
    The issue is (look I spent a lot of time disucssing this issue in 2009) does the "reform" in ACA lead us in the right direction.

    In my view it does not because the reform I think works is more public insurance, not less.

    IF the Medicare Buy In had made it, the bill would have been an icredible achievement, especially coupled with Medicaid expansion.

    The exchanges are, in my view, a complete non-starter as reform. They will not work in the US.

    As a pragmatist, you should be applying it not only to potential political and policy outcomes, but to how policies will turn out in the US in reality, as opposed to on paper.

    It is unpragmatic in my view to see the exchanges as effective reform.

    In my view, you are the starry eyed dreamer and I am the pragmatist.


    Parent

    The requirement that 85% of (none / 0) (#47)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:49:33 AM EST
    premiums go to health benefits could be very useful if it can give rise to a private right of action.  Class actions against insurers could be an effective way to regulate them.

    Of course, health insurers probably make most of their money on the float in any event.  That is how most insurance companies make their money.  Even if claims paid equals premiums, the money earned on the float is huge.  The payroll processing company ADP has made huge amounts of money off the float.  ADP has billion dollar potfolios....(It is publicly traded.)

      I do agree healthcare is a public good more like K-12 education than any personal investments or a 401k.

    Parent

    At one time in the not so distant (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:10:50 AM EST
    past, dismantlement of the popular, effective and efficient Medicare program seemed impossible.   Now, consideration of its privatization is bruited about as showing courage and leadership.

    Parent
    How did that become possible? (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:43:40 AM EST
    It became possible IMO when a Democratic president put the "entitlement programs" on the table. It became possible when $500 million was cut from the Medicare budget. It became possible when 15 Democratic members of the Senate demanded the Cat Food Commission be formed after it failed to pass in the Senate, when 3 Democratic Senators went on the road selling the Cat Food Commissions recommendations, and when my sweet Claire offers a proposal that will force gutting all safety net programs including Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.

     

    Parent

    True, and In an ironic twist, Medicare (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:20:38 PM EST
    must be defended by the Obama administration because it is needed to finance (to the extent of about one-half) its health care reform act.  The Ryan voucher plan not only dismantles Medicare, but will do a good job on dismantling the heath care reform act.

    Parent
    And it started in the primary (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by MontanaMaven on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 04:35:33 PM EST
    I felt then and wrote that Obama was creating generational divides with his Sixties bashing and hints about"entitlement" reforms.  I remember young people writing how they were convinced that SS and Medicare would not be there for them so they wanted to be in charge of their own pension plans and health care.  Sure, when I was their age I didn't give any thought to retirement or illness.  

    I agree that the pragmatic thing to do would be to add to a good system with 3% overhead called Medicare.  The pragmatic thing is to use the clout of government to force medical costs down.  If our so called representatives had teach ins on health care in 2009 instead of trying to sell a bad product, we might be at a different place.  But no.  They are in the pocket of Big Pharma, Big Medical, Big Insurance so they held stupid town halls. People like Klein are put there to keep the picture blurry. They choose ambitious malleable talkers with sadly middlin' minds.

    Parent

    It became inevitable (none / 0) (#110)
    by Rojas on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 08:22:16 PM EST
    When a Democratic president sold out for free trade agreements that demolished the pillars on which our employer based system was based.
    Allot of talk about the deal, but no talk about that deal and the inevitable repercussions of a trade system in which the weekly cost of providing employer based insurance for the working class in the US are greater than the monthly wages of using workers in the the third world.

    Parent
    What irritates me (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:55:02 AM EST
    is that people who are very supportive of the ACA have continually moved the goalposts as far as what is "possible" and what constitutes "the real world."  In 2009 we were all getting reassured by Obama's biggest supporters that he had a "secret plan" to get the public option in the bill.  Booman for example wrote at length about how this was going to be accomplished, always signing off with "now shut up and trust the President."

    Well, the public option never made it into the bill.  The only secret plan was that it was a bargaining chip to get the bill passed.  

    Soooo basically progressives who believe in public healthcare are right to feel slighted.  All they were given was lipservice.  Obama doesn't just do everything that is possible at every moment; he does make choices.  I disagree that it was impossible to pass a public option.

    Parent

    It's not possible... (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Romberry on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 06:42:27 PM EST
    ...only so long as people say it isn't. The second enough of us demand it and our "leaders" begin to tell the story/narrative on a consistent basis, it will not only be possible but it will become the obvious solution.

    You may be an Angry Black Guy, but at your core, what you are is a conservative if not in fact a Republican. You obviously don't believe in or advocate actual progress. Practically every post you make is telling us why we can't instead of looking for ways in which we can. If you can't lead or follow, then please get out of the way...and take Obama with you.

    Parent

    "A BTD iberal" (none / 0) (#51)
    by shoephone on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:55:39 AM EST
    I don't recall BTD referring to himself as a liberal. Seems to me, he has always said he's  centrist.

    No?

    Parent

    A BTD "liberal" (none / 0) (#54)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:05:35 PM EST
    That phrase is almost as amusing as the phrase "the far left" as it applies to the U.S.

    Parent
    Why in hell (none / 0) (#115)
    by cal1942 on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:57:12 PM EST
    would anyone with life experience and a shred of common sense give a damn about what a little whit like Ezra Klein thinks.

    Parent
    You don't get what you don't ask for. (none / 0) (#144)
    by Avedon on Mon Apr 18, 2011 at 08:46:51 AM EST
    If no one is arguing for single-payer, you are sure not going to get single-payer.  Hell, you're not even going to get a public option.  As recent history should have taught you.

    If you have lots of people pushing for single-payer, you actually have a chance of getting a "compromise" that involves something less efficient than single-payer but at least better than what's currently on the table.

    What is currently on the table is that we will have a "compromise" that is somewhere between letting you die in the streets for lack of health care and letting you die in the waiting room for lack of health care.

    The "center" keeps moving to the right because the left is "pragmatically" not making counter-offers.  You need to make a real counter offer to get to a reasonable compromise.  Otherwise, you are just giving the store away.

    Single-payer is my idea of a good goal; therefore, I'm demanding full-fledged government-run health care of the sort the NHS provides in the UK.  Single-payer would then be the compromise.

    Parent

    The Swiss model (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:15:34 AM EST
    The costs have increased in the last 10 years by 50 to 60 percent," says Roland Brunner, a banker from Baden.

    The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world. Switzerland's health care spending as a percentage of GDP is second only behind the U.S.  

    Under Swiss law, insurers may not make a profit on the basic plan, which is quite comprehensive. Individuals, however, can adjust their premium up or down by choosing a larger or smaller annual deductible, or by joining an HMO-type plan that requires them to choose a doctor in a network.

    Drug prices are negotiated by the government.

    It is highly regulated by the government. Please don't even try to convince anyone here that the insurance and medical industries would allow a comparable high level of government regulation.

       

    Parent

    Swiss treat health care like a public utility (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by MontanaMaven on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 04:18:10 PM EST
    It is non-profit.  The CEO of an insurance company makes a good wage, drives a nice car and has a nice house.  He does not make total compensation of $124.8 million like William McQuire of United Health.
    Their insurance companies compete for customers with such things as faster service or other extras.  It's not my favorite system of the ones that T.R. Reid investigated in "The Healing of America", but at least the Swiss finally admitted that health care was a right. That is where Reid says the discussion must begin.  In countries that believe it is a basic right, all citizens are entitled when sick to equal treatment.  If they want a private room, that's different.  

    Parent
    There is no question in my mind that (none / 0) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 04:44:57 PM EST
    the Swiss model is better than the for profit system that we have in the U.S and admitting that health care is a right is where all discussion should begin.

    IMO it is not the best or the most cost effective system that we could adopt and I feel that it is extremely unlikely that the U.S. will adopt a highly regulated, non-profit private insurance system.

    I do think that there was a window of opportunity to sell a phased-in Medicare for All system to the American public and that without government interference the private health insurance system here would have collapsed from their own greed. Whether that opportunity will come again is anyone's guess.    

    Parent

    Yes, the recession and people over 50 (none / 0) (#105)
    by MontanaMaven on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 05:47:38 PM EST
    losing their jobs was a wakeup call.  We could have passed a Medicare for All buy in for everyone over 55 years of age.  I bet it would have passed.

    Parent
    I fit it... (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Romberry on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 06:37:48 PM EST
    ...right in with much of the rest of what you have to say, which (bluntly) is either ill-informed, incomplete or intentionally ignorant.

    You do understand that the Swiss model is one of extraordinarily tight regulation in a system that is strictly not for profit, yes? And you think that is in any way applicable here? It would be funny if it wasn't do da*n sad.

    Parent

    For more political chicanery, (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:25:19 AM EST
    look at McCaskill-Corker.

    So what is McCaskill-Corker? It would mandate that spending, within ten years, go from 24.7% of GDP to 20.6% of GDP. Instead of looking at what society needs, and advancing programs designed to fulfill those needs, and then determining how to pay for them, then, this bill would artificially limit spending to an arbitrary number that is less than the 22% level of spending under Ronald Reagan. And instead of picking and choosing what programs to save under that cap, McCaskill-Corker forces OMB to make the decision of making "evenly distributed, simultaneous cuts throughout the federal budget." This would include mandatory spending like Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security.
    ...
    McCaskill-Corker, then, is the Ryan budget without the fingerprints. Note that they arrived at this spending cap number by looking at historical averages over three decades, none of which included the baby boom generation in retirement. link

     

    The absolute (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:04:06 AM EST
    irony I find in this whole kabuki theater is that Obama has said that he's against the Ryan Plan because it's bad for the elderly and it is but his own HCR is much like the Ryan Plan for the rest of us. And then we have the GOP suing the states regarding setting up exchanges and here's Ryan advocating the same thing for Medicare.

    Advocacy for "The Market" (be that (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:10:31 PM EST
    Klein's exchanges or Ryan's vouchers) rather than public health insurance programs skips over the fundamental nature of health care and its delivery.  

    Heath care is based on both science and art, and neither are subject to the sharp pencil of market forces. Indeed, the outcomes of health care focus on patients not widgets.  Moreover, health care is not subject to the economies of progress as widgets may be, in the same sense that a Mozart string quartet composed in 1782 still takes in 20ll four string players.

    The concern to curb health care costs ignores the likelihood that as heath care advances so too will costs. Health care education and training, techniques and technologies, surgical and pharmacological treatments will cost more not less. Of course, economies can be made, but the premise that these will offset costs is as delusional as maintaining that eliminating "waste" will cure all budgetary problems.  The idea that consumers need to take responsibility for their heath care decisions is, in practice, a fantasy of the young and healthy.   Health care is and will continue to be costly, and the most economical and moral means to bring all its benefits to Americans is through public health insurance.

    Republican supporters of single payer (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by beowulf on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 08:27:09 PM EST
    Ironically, Ted Kennedy's two co-sponsors when he first proposed a National Health Insurance bill in 1970 were Republicans.  KY Senator John Sherman Cooper (Mitch McConnell's first boss in DC) and Ohio Senator William Saxbe (Nixon's last Attorney General).

    I think the last Republican supporter in Congress, (and of course he later an independent, was Jim Jeffords (his "Medicore" bill was more progressive than Clinton's plan).  But in the 70s, you had Javits, Brooke and other moderate Republicans signing on for a single payer or Medicare-based system.

    Frankly the Democrats have chased the Republicans so far right, they've reached the end of the board. I wouldn't be surprised if a future GOP president decided to eat the Democrats' lunch on this and outflank from the left.  A Republican county commissioner here in Georgia has made the point it gives the GOP a "Nixon goes to China" opportunity.
    http://mysavannah.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/jack-bernard-advocating-for-health-care-reform/

    Health care and such (4.00 / 1) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 02:53:49 PM EST
    There is no such thing as a free market in health care and I am tired of hearing people talk about something that is not real

    We have a state and national medical association, insurance companies, and federal and state government through Medicare and Medicaid that approve treatments and recommend prices.

    Health care is a demand based business. It is not an option. When you are sick you don't shop around for cheaper treatment, even if it existed. A heart attack demands immediate attention. There are no "Broken bones set Thursday Special!"

    So, my conservative friends let us quit lying about the subject.

    And given that, through the establishment of Medicare and Medicaid, we have decided health care is a right, the only question is how much we pay and how shall we pay it.

    The amount should be enough to properly reward people who are smart enough to become doctors and nurses and dedicated enough to undergo the years of study and associated costs.

    And that amount is more now than it was in 1950 when heart attacks were almost always fatal or the precursor of one in the near future. Improved positive expectations in any situation leads to a willingness to pay more.

    So the issues are how much and how do we make the payment.

    Now my Left Wing friends will say, "Tax the rich," and I admit that is a nice thought. The problem, of course, is that there aren't enough rich, so what they mean is, "Tax everyone but the poor."  The problem with that is that no can define what poor means. Should it be the same as FIT? You know, a family of four making around $40K or less pays nothing?

    The problem there is this. How do we insure those who engage in illegal activities, such as dope dealers, prostitution services and oil speculators pay their fair share? I mean if we say that a shot up dope dealer's life deserves the same treatment as a postman supporting a family for four, shouldn't the dope dealer pay? I mean fair is fair, isn't it?

    I say that we use a National Sales Tax collected at the RETAIL point of sale (this is not a VAT). To put some fairness into the collection we could exempt unprepared food, utility bills under $200, used cars over 4 years old and other items that impact the working poor more than the rich.

    What shall we use as a system to deliver the care and administrate it? Well, we already have that in place. It's called Medicare.

    Now, that wasn't hard, was it?

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 03:10:21 PM EST
    one time I did shop around for prices. There are a few times you can do such like for elective surgery etc. It's when I was having my eldest son and you know what? The price among doctors was only a $100.00 spread. What a lot of people don't realize is that the AMA sets doctors fees or at least "suggests" fees for the doctors to charge.

    So there really is no free market like you're saying.

    Parent

    Informed self-interest is a (none / 0) (#90)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 03:17:06 PM EST
    great thing to see.

    Parent
    I know you support single payer (none / 0) (#104)
    by sj on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 05:39:09 PM EST
    but the "how will it be paid for" argument has always irked me.  I am paying a small fortune in employer sponsored health insurance.  If it goes to the government and is called a tax instead of going to a corporation for profit, I am fine with that.

    But this is just disingenuous:

    Now my Left Wing friends will say, "Tax the rich," and I admit that is a nice thought. The problem, of course, is that there aren't enough rich...

    That argument only holds up if the "tax" is a flat rate.

    Parent
    Kaiser (2.00 / 1) (#112)
    by diogenes on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:06:22 PM EST
    Kaiser Permanente HMO is infinitely more efficient than the Medicare system, which does nothing but write checks on demand (and thus has low "administrative" costs because Medicare beneficiaries can get infinite specialist consults on demand).  


    More unintentional comedy... (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Anne on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 11:17:23 AM EST
    un-freakin'-believable.

    Parent
    Ummm...no. (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Romberry on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 07:43:20 PM EST
    Check the overhead/administrative costs. Medicare's runs 3 percent. Kaiser's is multiple times higher.

    Parent
    No (1.00 / 5) (#11)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:29:11 AM EST
    What BTD is doing to Klein is what the Further Left does to anyone who dares suggest that a more moderate path at times is OK.  If you dare suggest some leniency towards moderate alternatives, you are later portrayed as disavowing fundamental liberal ideals.

    Let me explain.  Here is what BTD says about Klein:

    "Ezra Klein is the virtual spokesman for the those who believe that what ails the health insurance market can be fixed by "the market."

    Here is what Klein says about the role of government in the healthcare market:


    "There's no free-market solution for the health-care system, at least not insofar as "free-market solution" means the government stays out of it. In a free market, people who are sick, or have previously been sick, can't get health-care insurance. Many, many more can't afford it. And a solution that leads to 40 percent of the country being uninsured is no solution at all.

    The two eventual choices here are A) government monopoly, like Medicare-for-All, or B) government-structured market, like the Wyden-Bennett Healthy Americans Act, or the system we see in Switzerland."

    Link

    Good illustration with my frustration with the way that "moderates" are portrayed by the Further Left (which really isn't further left in reality, they are just less flexible, but "Further Left" is more understandable than "Less Flexible Left".)

    Your quote from Ezra (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:36:17 AM EST
    confirms what BTD said.  A government-structured market is still a...market.

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:37:14 AM EST
    And not that there is anything wrong with that.

    I have a different view about a market based reform regarding THIS issue.

    Parent

    But c'mon (none / 0) (#20)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:44:11 AM EST
    Using "the market" is meaningless unless you define the level of government intervention.  In other words, you can structure a market based system in which the government restrictions are so tight that the insurance companies and healthcare providers operate almost as utilities, which is close to the Swiss system.

    "The Market" is a boogeyman type term in the same way that "socialized medicine" is. It really means absolutely nothing because you can have market based healthcare the mimics a government run system and "socialized medicine" that is enacted within an employer based framework or some other more market driven construction.

    The broad categorizations just confuse the issue.

    That's why I have always said that I don't really care how it is implemented.  I just want an individual to be able to know that at any time he can access healthcare for a set amount that is appropriate for someone at his income level. And I don't want the whims of the market to impact the amount he can be expected to contribute, if any money at all.

    You can do that with a market system appropriately regulated. You can do that with a single payer system.  I'd prefer single payer, but I'd happily settle for a tightly regulated exchange/market system.

    I don't think I have to be placed into one category of liberal or another for believing that.  

    Parent

    You, who constantly preach about (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:53:12 AM EST
    what is possible, are now suggesting that it is possible in the current environment to structure a market based system in which the government restrictions are so tight that the insurance companies and healthcare providers operate almost as utilities.

    Get real. If you can't get Medicare for all because the insurance and medical industries own the government, you sure aren't going to get highly regulated system.

    Parent

    I don't think it is possible today but (1.00 / 0) (#61)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:15:04 PM EST
    in the near future, yes.

    I do not think single payer is possible in the foreseeable future.

    Simple reason: If your primary concern is jobs, how do you deal with the fact that millions of people now employed in the insurance industry will wake up without jobs the day that single payer becomes effective?  How do you deal with a massive hit to GDP and tax revenues in the midst of a recession? how do you deal with a stock market crash of historic proportions when insurance stocks, which represent a massive portion of the Dow and S&P, go to zero?

    So no.  Single payer would not happen under Obama's watch and likely won't happen in our lifetimes, if ever.

    But something that was a bit closer to our existing structure is possible.

    Parent

    I'm sorry but your explanation does not (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:54:18 PM EST
    even make sense.

    1. There are studies that show that single payer would create more jobs not less.

    2. Obama's health insurance legislation will make the insurance, pharma and medical industries more wealthy and powerful providing them with billions  more dollars to fight off any real attempt at regulation.

    3. If insurance stocks represent a massive portion of the Dow and S&P and going to single payer would cause a major stock market crash now, the impact of drastically reducing their profit through regulation after they have been made even bigger by giving them million more people to fleece would make any crash even bigger.

    4. A phased in Medicare for All would cause no more impact to jobs or the market than the  highly regulated system you suggest. It would be less affordable to people who need health care than Medicare for All as the Swiss model proves.


    Parent
    You chide BTD for making a wrong (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:47:05 PM EST
    prediction right before a primary, yet in this comment you predict job loss, and a stock market crash of historic proportions over  insurance stocks "going to zero" if we had single-payer?
    What is your source, man??
    How about a sense of proportion on your part, man?

    Parent
    If you really wanted answers to the (5.00 / 4) (#91)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 03:33:04 PM EST
    questions you pose, you could go to Physicians for a National Health Program and take some time (I know it might interfere with the considerable time you devote to cheerleading for Obama) to read up on the economic impact of going to a single-payer system, but I'm pretty sure you won't make any investment in your own education - but on the off-chance you do, here is a good place on the site to get started.

    Do you imagine that a single payer plan would not need more employees to administer that plan?  Do you suppose that many currently employed in the private sector would be able to work in the single-payer arena?  If more people are guaranteed care, don't you think there will be more health care providers needed?

    And what about the stock market?  What about the value of stock currently in private hands?  Well, stock could be sold back to these companies that are sitting on reserves and investments worth billions - investors would, I imagine, take their proceeds and invest in other areas of the market.

    Loss of tax revenue?  What?  Single-payer would create jobs, which would create revenue.

    It seems to me that the only reason you keep saying this is an impossible thing to do is that you know Obama is never going to do it, and you have to defend that decision.

    It's a good thing that people who believed it was not only possible to confer equality on all, but was the right thing to do, did not buy into your "can't be done" metric.

    Parent

    Single Payer HC (1.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 05:06:11 PM EST
    Why didnt Hillary or John Edwards propose single payer health care during the primries?

    Parent
    I don't know - they should have. (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 05:27:05 PM EST
    That they didn't does not, I don't think, justify Obama's utter refusal to even include it as a point of discussion.

    What Edwards or Clinton did or didn't do three years ago has little to do with what should be done now.

    Parent

    Or (1.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 05:33:26 PM EST
    maybe Hillary and John Edwards had a better idea about what is possible and what is not than some people here. After all, they are successful politicians and have to deal with people from all walks of life.

    Parent
    Opening (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 06:28:05 PM EST
    up Medicare was supposed to be the transition to single payer.

    Parent
    Opening uo Medicare (2.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:59:27 PM EST
    Would possibly create a 2tier HC system. Medicare for the elderly,poor, unemployed and very sick and private health care for the rest. Just like K12 level education. Soon republicans would be demanding more cuts to Medicare fundings, doctors would stop accepting Medicare patients, fight would be about giving vouchers to some people in Medicare or dismantling Medicare for chartered health care.

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 07:03:59 AM EST
    because the middle class already had a vested interest in Medicare unlike Medicaid. The insurance companies would not be able to compete on pricing and that's why they fought it so hard.

    Parent
    Unless you get rid (1.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Politalkix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 09:42:44 AM EST
    of employment based health care (which will not happen because the vast majority of employers do not want that to happen), opening up Medicare will just blur the lines between Medicare and Medicaid. You will have a 3 tier healthcare class system between those who have employer based private health care insurance and those on Medicare and Medicaid.
    I am not against opening up Medicare, however I do not believe the rosy picture that you have painted.

    Parent
    We have a multiple tiered (5.00 / 0) (#121)
    by MO Blue on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 10:23:47 AM EST
    health care class system right now and that will continue and get worse even if Obama's health insurance legislation is even implemented.

    Parent
    Actually (5.00 / 0) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 10:36:23 AM EST
    employers would love to get rid of employer based healthcare because of the cost and many business have already gotten rid of it. Do you realize that there's a ton of businesses that don't even offer healthcare to their employees and even more than do but the employees can't afford to pay for it?

    It's not the good ole days anymore where 80% of the cost of healthcare is picked up by the employer. The standard now is that the employer pays 80% of the cost of the employee but pays only 40% or less of the cost of family and children or spouse coverage.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#123)
    by Politalkix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 11:16:12 AM EST
    If the majority of employers wanted to get rid of EB healthcare, both parties would support it. But they do not! Employers think that they if Govt has more control over healthcare, they will get taxed more and more and lose control over what is offered to employees. Many employers use health care plans to attract employees.

    Parent
    Why (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 11:29:28 AM EST
    are so many dropping offering healthcare then? They are dropping it because of the cost and the cost is continually rising at the rate of about 10% per year here in GA. It's not like it used to be. You are stuck in the past on your views of healthcare. Business realize that with the economy the way it is that they have the upper hand on hiring and don't need to use "benefits" as an attraction.

    If it was paid for by a VAT then they would care less about how it was financed.

    Parent

    I think you do not have a clear understanding (none / 0) (#126)
    by Politalkix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 12:05:19 PM EST
    on this issue. Extreme resistance of majority of employers, around 50% of Americans and physicians and nurses to what people like you want on health care(not just insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and hospitals)is not something you can discount. What I have posted here is based on current conversation that I have had with a lot of people.
    Have you even checked whether most Americans would accept imposition of VAT?

     

    Parent

    You only (5.00 / 0) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 12:11:14 PM EST
    have 50% resistance? If you are right that is moving away from what you are saying.

    Of course, some doctors are going to be against it. They won't be able to set their fees like they do know. They will have to negotiate for a money much like everybody else in the country does for a job. They know that individual negotiation isn't worth much because there's no power behind it.

    Current conversation with people? Aren't you the one that says the Republicans like Obama? Those numbers aren't backed up by any numbers that I've seen.

    Parent

    50% extreme resistance (none / 0) (#128)
    by Politalkix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 12:31:58 PM EST
    and pretty high level of resistance for even more people. Those numbers will rise even more dramatically the moment you start talking about imposition of new taxes like VAT to pay for what you want from healthcare reform.


    Parent
    Okay (5.00 / 0) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 12:38:17 PM EST
    So you agree with Obama that we should just give up? As a matter of fact, the polling on a public option does not support what you are saying in the least.

    I guess you would also agree with the Paul plan too since it replaces Medicare with the ACA.

    Parent

    I supported the public option (none / 0) (#130)
    by Politalkix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 01:28:55 PM EST
    so that some people would be provided an additional safety net. However, unlike a lot of people in this blog, I never held the naive belief that were a public option offered or Medicare opened up to all, (1) we would not have class based stratification in health care options and (2)the public option/Medicare programs would not be nickel and dimed and attacked by Republicans who would seek its eventual replacement with private insurance.  
    I am against large scale reconstruction of health care at this moment. I will therefore not support spending effort trying to replace Medicare for people over 65 with ACA and in trying to close the program for people less than 55 at this time. Efforts should be invested in strengthening the ACA to be as good as possible; at this time, ACA is still in its starter house phase. There is a lot of promise in it (if it is regulated well).
    I do not know what public option polls you are referring to? However, I am curious to know whether any polls asked people whether they supported the public option if it increased their taxes (like imposition of VAT that you support to have health care reforms to your liking).

    Parent
    The GOP is (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 01:56:01 PM EST
    already nickel and diming the ACA. They are having a much harder problem doing something to Medicare than they are the ACA. Obama has already agreed to cuts in the ACA in the budget negotiations with Boehner.

    You cannot strengthen the ACA and that's one of the problems with the legislation. The ACA is very easy to be defunded and then extremely hard to expand.

    There were polls that were quoted on this site that showed around 70% approval for a public option.

    Parent

    Much of that resistance would (5.00 / 0) (#132)
    by Anne on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 04:16:14 PM EST
    go away if people were properly educated about what a single-payer plan would mean to them, and how it would work; I point people to Physicians for A National Health Program all the time, in hope of opening people's minds up - it's a great resource.

    I don't know who all these employers are who are resistant - all you've referred to are people you've talked to - but it doesn't make any sense to me that employers would resist.

    As for the care providers, most providers that I have spoken to just want to be able to practice medicine in the way that best meets their patients' needs.  Most of them would love to be able to give up managing the health insurance end of their practice - and put that time into patient care.  Most of them would love it if they didn't have to argue with and find ways around the gatekeepers that are determining who should and should not get care.

    As for how it would be paid for, here's what PNHP suggests:

    A universal public system would be financed in the following way: The public funds already funneled to Medicare and Medicaid would be retained. The difference, or the gap between current public funding and what we would need for a universal health care system, would be financed by a payroll tax on employers (about 7%) and an income tax on individuals (about 2%). The payroll tax would replace all other employer expenses for employees' health care, which would be eliminated. The income tax would take the place of all current insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and other out-of-pocket payments. For the vast majority of people, a 2% income tax is less than what they now pay for insurance premiums and out-of-pocket payments such as co-pays and deductibles, particularly if a family member has a serious illness. It is also a fair and sustainable contribution.

    The more people know, the more likely they are to - at least - be able to make an informed decision, something I don't believe most people are currently doing.

    Parent

    Heh ... (none / 0) (#119)
    by Yman on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 07:27:16 AM EST
    Opening up Medicare (as Clinton and Edwards were proposing) would possibly create a 2tier HC system. Medicare for the elderly,poor, unemployed and very sick and private health care for the rest. Just like K12 level education. Soon republicans would be demanding more cuts to Medicare fundings, doctors would stop accepting Medicare patients, fight would be about giving vouchers to some people in Medicare or dismantling Medicare for chartered health care.

    - two posts up -

    maybe Hillary and John Edwards had a better idea about what is possible and what is not than some people here. After all, they are successful politicians and have to deal with people from all walks of life.

    Classic.

    Parent

    How many times... (1.00 / 0) (#135)
    by Romberry on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 07:39:43 PM EST
    ...are you going to ask this one pointless question in the same thread?

    Parent
    Romberry (none / 0) (#137)
    by Politalkix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 08:36:23 PM EST
    If you think that by rating me "1" repeatedly, you are going to shut down opinions that differ from your own, you are setting yourself up for a big disappointment. You have tried these tactics before; it has never worked and never will.


    Parent
    Shut down? (1.00 / 0) (#138)
    by Romberry on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 10:29:56 PM EST
    No, I don't expect to shut you down. (Does it even work that way here? I don't think that it does.)

    I rate honestly, and rarely do I rate "1's." But you earned 'em.

    My original query stands. How many times are you going to ask the same pointless question in a single thread?

    Parent

    Honesty (1.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Politalkix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 10:50:23 PM EST
    and Romberry? That is a new concept, never saw that before. Whatever (rolling eyes)...

    Parent
    And with comments like that... (1.00 / 0) (#140)
    by Romberry on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 11:44:29 PM EST
    ...you ought to understand why I say that you earn the ratings I give to your posts.

    Parent
    Your behaviour (none / 0) (#141)
    by Politalkix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 11:56:17 PM EST
    earned the comments you got. You ought to understand that...

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#143)
    by Romberry on Sun Apr 17, 2011 at 08:18:40 PM EST
    Your last post gets filed under "ironic."

    Parent
    There's (none / 0) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 03:43:44 PM EST
    one thing that a lot of people don't realize and that it's we can't sustain our current hodgepodge system and ACA is just more hodgepodge on top of the existing hodgepodge.

    So we can either go back to giving the doctors a chicken when we go to see them or have something like single payer. And I used to think it was never possible either but it's gotten to the point that something has to give.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:50:30 AM EST
    if you have read me on the subject, you would understand that that is my point - that the "structuring of the market" - the regulatory reform idea, will not be effective is my view.

    I really believe the "reform" in the ACA is not going to work. The reasons why I think so were explained in tens of thousands of words over the course of 2009.

    I do not hold you in contempt as a progressive or a Democrat for disagreeing with me on this point.

    Ezra is not a bad person for disagreeing with me on this point.

    Ezra was a "bad" person in 2009 because he disingenuously sold himself as a public option proponent when he clearly was not.

    Now he is pretty open and honest about his lack of support for public insurance programs.

    Parent

    Look (3.50 / 2) (#31)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:08:45 AM EST
    I understand that you have been writing on various subjects for years, and I know that it is convenient to continually hit us new followers with "if you read what I wrote in 2009 you would know . . . ."

    But I don't know any of that stuff. No one reads blogs that way. Takes too long.  To some degree, you are writing for the new reader whenever you make a blog post.

    The only thing that I know is that the BTD that I now read religiously thinks that ACAis not going to work and, regardless of what was said in 2009, IMHO has not given the reforms any opportunity to be implemented before calling them failures.  Let me let you in on a little secret: I don't think they will work completely right at first and I love ACA.  In the same way SS, Medicare and Medicaid didn't work well at first and had to be revised and refined over a period to strike a good balance, ACA will go through similar changes. And that's really the point.  I don't think any ACA supporter believes that it is the end all/be all.  What they believe. . . well what I believe . . . is that it is a massively positive first step that will make many other changes down the road easier and also solve a few really big short term problems in the process.

    I also believe that the system you prefer will be impossible to implement politically in the US WITHOUT a first step like ACA.  Single payer folks, although not thrilled, should really love the legislation.  The first and heaviest domino has fallen and if you game theory this thing out, you end up something that looks way more liberal than what we have now in 50 years.  What Klein has written and talked about is the idea that ACA is actually the back door first step to a some sort of public option. I believe that. Most ACA supporters speaking in confidence believe that. So do the republicans, to be honest.

    But the good thing about this particular discussion, as opposed to things like predictions about what would have happened if we didn't make The Deal, is that we will get to see if ACA supporters are right.

    I think once the first person who wasn't covered is able to make those first few doctor's visits in 2014, my side will win.

    Parent

    The difference (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:12:45 AM EST
    between Medicare and the ACA is that the ACA is too easily unfunded. Obama put so much stuff to go into effect years down the road that even if it was the best legislation EVAH he gave the GOP an opening to get rid of it before it even goes into effect.

    Parent
    Well that explains a lot (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by sj on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:43:25 AM EST
    But I don't know any of that stuff. No one reads blogs that way. Takes too long.  To some degree, you are writing for the new reader whenever you make a blog post.

    It explains how you read as well as how you write.  Why bother with responding to researched counter arguments?  Tomorrow is a new day and you can act as if yesterday never happened.

    Parent

    Really? (1.00 / 0) (#55)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:07:53 PM EST
    Is the barrier to entry to commenting on any blog that I have to go back to Talk Left's creation and read up on every post ever written?

    Silly.

    The real problem  with  referencing all of the wonderful and correct things written years ago is that no one ever tells you to go back and read the part where they are completely wrong.  

    If BTD was like "hey you should check out my well reasoned discussions on single payer but also check out where I was completely wrong about X issue because it supports your position" then I'm in.

    For example, much of BTDs logic hinges on the assumption that he's got a good grasp of political and other dynamics at play, including how various constituencies will react to actions by their representatives. He's provided some really good evidence of his predictions n the past to support that.  Honestly, impressive stuff.  Bt he doesn't mention stuff like:

    In short, for Obama to win North Carolina, he needs a miracle basically. Record breaking African American turnout COUPLED with a record breaking performance for a Democrat with white North Carolinians - an 8 point improvement over a ticket that included a native son of North Carolina.

    It ain't going to happen people.

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/6/17/154238/718

    That's no knock against BTD.  Everyone gets stuff wrong.  The problem with referencing past correct statements is that no one references (or has time to look up) every incorrect past statement to provide a real record of how right or wrong a person tends to be in predictions and such.

    So you argue from the present and let those arguments stand by themselves.

    Parent

    Barriers? What are you talking about? (5.00 / 0) (#58)
    by sj on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:12:09 PM EST
    And I said nothing about BTD's posts or history.  Nor did I insist that you read them.  I just observed that I now understand one reason why you don't respond to research provided to you that runs counter to your assertions.

    Parent
    I respond (none / 0) (#77)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:23:16 PM EST
    to research provided to me that runs counter to my position to the extent I see it and have time to respond.

    Don't mistake laziness in responding for the fact that I am intentionally ignoring stuff.

    I just don't/can't respond to everyone's sources because a proper responses requires me to pull my own sources which takes time, etc. But if there is a primary point being made that is central to the discussion I always try to respond if I can.

    Also, what I have found is that if someone provides evidence, and I provide evidence to counter it, and the original provider doesn't agree with my evidence, that translates into me not responding.

    That ain't right.

    Parent

    HA HA HA HA HA (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:27:13 PM EST
    That's just a rich charge. Talk about projection.
    How many times have you ignored posts which show you to be wrong? And, btw, how many times have you done complete 180's without batting an eye?

    Parent
    I thought you just said you don't (none / 0) (#63)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:17:46 PM EST
    read BTD's old posts.
    Or did you read that in an old persona's guise?

    Parent
    Do you really need (none / 0) (#65)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:20:18 PM EST
    BTD to tell you that he is not always correct?  And what relationship does the NC primary have with healthcare policy exactly?

    I would point out this post on regulatory capture.  There have been others as well.

    Parent

    No connection to healthcare policy (none / 0) (#78)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:25:01 PM EST
    But a direct connection to the concept that predictions by the best of us can turn out to be completely wrong, even if logically supportable at the time made.

    When people argue that pushing harder for certain policies would have had X effect, that should be kept in mind.

    Parent

    The analysis (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:43:35 PM EST
    in that post holds up very well. Why didn't you quote any other part of it?

    Parent
    I just reread that post (none / 0) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:13:10 PM EST
    It holds up pretty damn well.

    Why didn't you quote the rest of it?

    BTW, it's good to see you CAN search the archives. I was wondering.

    Parent

    And then the bill comes. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:59:25 AM EST
    I write for me frankly (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:13:25 AM EST
    Not for any particular readers.

    Last night in an Open Thread a "regular reader" cursed me out for writing about the NBA. I laughed.

    I gave up the "blog star" horsesh*t in 2006.

    IF you don't want to look up my stuff from 2009, then don't.

    It's good either way.

    Parent

    Cool (none / 0) (#45)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:46:00 AM EST
    If there is a particular post you want me (and others) to read to refresh everyone on a position, I am not against that.

    Parent
    If exchanges (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:06:44 AM EST
    are so "magical" when why not support the Ryan Plan? That's where Ezra falls short. Why are "exchanges" magical for the rest of us and bad for the elderly?

    Parent
    BTD (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:09:07 AM EST
    wrote a ton of words on this back during the HCR debate. If single payer is impossible then having a regulatory body that will actually enforce things is just as impossible. The insurance companies have a million lawyers who will find every loophole in any type of regulation or will constantly keep the regulatory body tied up in court.

    Why not have competition with a public plan?

    Parent

    That is not true (none / 0) (#39)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:38:12 AM EST
    If single payer is politically impossible it is possible to have an alternative structure, perhaps with a public option or other system, that gets us 90% of the way to everyone's goal, which would be an incredible victory.

    Parent
    Having a public option is not possible with (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:57:58 PM EST
    Obama as president only because he traded it away in a back room deal with the medical industry in the summer of 2009.

    Parent
    Right now (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:43:37 AM EST
    there's not going to be a public option so it's kind of a moot point. The ship has sailed on that account  as long as Obama is President. There's really no reason to set up another government entity when the infrastructure is already there with Medicare.

    Parent
    There would be no public (none / 0) (#56)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:10:01 PM EST
    option now under any president.

    Please describe the voting block  available during Obama's presidency that would have supported it?

    Ben Nelson, Blanche Lincoln et al were not going to vote for it, so what was your plan for making them magically disappear again?

    Parent

    Leadership (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:15:39 PM EST
    can change minds. Your post approximates Obama's problem. He just follows or waits around for someone else to do the work. It doesn't work that way.

    First of all Obama didn't even try. So how do you know there weren't the votes? It could have been done through reconciliation but Obama wasn't brave enough to try that. It was never true that he needed 60 votes. That was just an excuse to not even try.


    Parent

    My post (none / 0) (#67)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:21:00 PM EST
    assumes that there are limits to a President's power to change the dynamic.

    Obama was not going to magically say or do to make those against the public option change their minds.

    Th fate of the whole thing was at stake.  There was a real danger to pushing for a policy that would not succeed.  

    Your preferred action assumes no downside to "trying for a public option".  We disagree there.  There was a huge downside.

    Parent

    You see (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:37:41 PM EST
    you're thinking like Obama again. The GOP that was dead set against it would never change their minds yet he wasted precious time chasing their votes. The possibility resided in the fence sitters.

    Where you and I diverge is that I believe that there are some things worth fighting for even if you lose. You thinking is just to throw your hands up and oh, woe, there's nothing we can do.

    Obama could have used the bully pulpit to change minds. It's been done before the problem that Obama has on this account is that he's very poor at explaining the benefits of policy to the average citizen.  

    Parent

    Sure Obama can (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 02:02:47 PM EST
    say or do something that changes the direction of legislation. His back room agreements with pharma and the medical industries made sure that the health insurance legislation would not allow Medicare to negotiate prices, allow importation of prescription drugs, stop pharma from overcharging for dual eligibles or allow a public option to be included.

    Not a lot of magic needed. Just the same type of catering to "big business" at the expense of ordinary citizens found in the back room deals of prior administrations.

    As part of the 2003 Medicare prescription drug program, more than 6 million low-income seniors were shifted from Medicaid, which allowed the government to negotiate a deep discount for drugs, to the Medicare program, which did not. This has resulted in the government paying about 30 percent more for drugs, according to an analysis by Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Fla.).

    Nelson's amendment would shift these beneficiaries back to the Medicaid program, resulting in $86 billion in savings that could be used to close the donut hole for senior citizens.

    Senators were drawn into a tense discussion over the merits of the White House's $80 billion deal with the pharmaceutical industry, and the failings, as some Democrats see it, of the Medicare prescription drug program.

    Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.) said the Finance Committee should honor the deal with the drug industry. To suddenly double their obligation from $80 billion to more than $160 billion would not be "fair," he said. link

    Can not or will not? Seems he has no problem pushing and passing legislation that helps Wall St.
     

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#116)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 12:19:01 AM EST
    there are limits to a President's power to change the dynamic

    His supporters were enthusiastic because they believed he was all about changing the dynamic.

    If it weren't such an unmitigated disaster it would be an unending source of hilarity.

    Parent

    The bill was passed (none / 0) (#59)
    by dk on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:12:57 PM EST
    under Reconciliation.  Their votes were not required.  

    Parent
    We would have lost (none / 0) (#64)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:18:59 PM EST
    more democrats in that situation.

    Parent
    You think it wouldn't have been (none / 0) (#68)
    by dk on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:23:15 PM EST
    possible to get 50 Democratic votes in the senate for a public option last year?  That means you could have lost 9 Democrats.  Really?  Can you name the 10 Democratic senators who absolutely could not have been pressured to vote for it?

    Parent
    It wasn't just the option (none / 0) (#75)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:20:22 PM EST
    It was the way that doing something so massive through reconciliation would have been spun by their opponents. I could probably give you a list.  I believe there were a number of them floating around at the time this was happening.

    Parent
    Thanks (5.00 / 0) (#76)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:22:40 PM EST
    again for advocating for the GOP. They didn't even control the government at the time but that really doesn't matter since it's more important to do what they want or what they will approve of even though the country haters their policies.

    Parent
    Well, we have the benefit of knowing (none / 0) (#84)
    by dk on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:49:55 PM EST
    that the 2010 election was a bloodbath anyway for the Democrats, so I'm not sure what the difference in spin would have been.

    But anyway, I'd definitely be interested in seeing your list of 10 senate democrats who could not have been persuaded to vote for the inclusion of the public option.

    Parent

    wasn't the PO polling (none / 0) (#87)
    by nycstray on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 02:51:03 PM EST
    high with the gen public?

    Parent
    Yes, CONSISTENTLY, at well over 60% (none / 0) (#99)
    by shoephone on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 04:55:14 PM EST
    for the general public.

    Parent
    Oh (none / 0) (#117)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 12:29:52 AM EST
    so an important bill passes and you're worried about the complaints of the opposition.  Last I checked 51 votes is the majority.  

    The heavy use of the filibuster is a phenomenon of the past decade. It's evidence that the GOP willfully uses Leninist tactics.  You seem OK with that.

    Pathetic.

    Parent

    But did you believe (none / 0) (#69)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:25:39 PM EST
    a public option was impossible at the time?

    If you did, then you took a different stand than many other progressives did.  You rarely seem to acknowledge that though.  You seem to group people as being "realistic" or "unrealistic."  You paper over actual differences.  And the point of this post and Kilgore's article is that there are actual differences among progressives.

    As Kilgore writes at the end of his post:

    In discussing this post with several friends, I recognize I should be very clear about my motives here. I am not trying to promote an ideological fight within the Democratic Party or the progressive coalition, and don't want to exaggerate ideological differences, either. But ideology, however muddled, is part of what makes most politically active people tick. And if we don't talk about it--and about differences in strategic thinking as well, which will be the subject of future discussions here--then all we are left with to explain our differences on this issue or that is questions of character. And anyone paying attention must recognize there's far too much of that going on. "Progressive pragmatists"--the camp with which I most often personally identify, as it happens--often treat "the Left" condescendingly as immature and impractical people who don't understand how things get done. Meanwhile, people on "the Left" often treat "pragmatists" as either politically gutless or personally corrupt. This is what happens when you don't take seriously other people's ideological and strategic underpinnings; whatever you gain in ignoring or minimizing differences in perspective or point of view is lost in mutual respect. Sure, the character attacks on both sides are sometimes accurate, but nobody should assume that in any particular case without further examination of each others' ideological and strategic views. That examination is what we are trying to promote here.


    Parent
    There are differences among progressives (none / 0) (#79)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:27:09 PM EST
    That's obvious.

    My problem is when one group of progressives labels the other group of progressives as "weak" or "conservative" or "sell outs" simply because of the ideological differences.

    That's probably the unifying theme of my posts.

    There are a number of "liberal" ways to achieve the goals we all share, and the demonization of those who take a different strategy isn't helpful.

    Parent

    That is fair (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 02:16:23 PM EST
    But while it may not be fair to say that someone is "conservative" for espousing X or Y, it probably is fair to say someone is "more conservative."

    Compared to a public plan, regulatory reform is more conservative.  To say that "I wish we could have single payer" and then produce a regulatory reform model without does not necessarily mean you are being "realistic."  On this and a number of other policies, this indicates to me that Obama is more conservative than I am.  I don't think he's a president who just wasn't able to be more liberal (although that's part of it), I think he is just less liberal.

    Parent

    No, your problem is labeling (none / 0) (#100)
    by shoephone on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 04:58:39 PM EST
    those on the left side of the political spectrum as "progressives" in the first place. The truth is, many on the left abhor the term. We call ourselves "liberals" and we know what the word means. The truth is, many on the center and right side of the politcal spectrum call themselves "progressives." Hence... the utter meaninglessness of the term.

    Parent
    There are differences among progressives (none / 0) (#106)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 06:08:22 PM EST
    Governor Scott Walker appeared before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform and claimed that his assault on public employees and public-school teachers, public services and public education was a "progressive" policy.

    "In Wisconsin, we are doing something truly progressive," Walker told the committee, during a remarkable session that lasted the better part of four hours. "In addition to holding the line on spending and finding efficiencies in state government, we are implementing long term budget reforms focused on protecting middle class jobs and middle class taxpayers

    Then there are people who claim to be for progressive policies or who have others make that claim for them.  

     

    Parent

    Fighting for what is right is the job of (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by MontanaMaven on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 04:45:06 PM EST
    the citizen, said Howard Zinn.  The job of the politician is to win.  We have different functions.  Lefties I know are not inflexible. I've found them rather adroit at finding simple elegant solutions.  A bad solution is a bad solution.  That is what I call out.

    Parent
    That's ridiculous (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:34:46 AM EST
    Ezra himself favors Wyden-Bennett:

    "The two eventual choices here are A) government monopoly, like Medicare-for-All, or B) government-structured market, like the Wyden-Bennett Healthy Americans Act, or the system we see in Switzerland."

    The Wyden-Bennett Healthy Americans Act is a market based solution. I did not know that it was an insult to say someone supports Wyden-Bennett.

    I am a free trader - did I just insult myself?

    Parent

    FTR (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:36:33 AM EST
    I rated your comment a 1 because it is simply dishonest.

    you can be for anything you like, but keep your comments honest please.

    Parent

    It's just (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:57:42 AM EST
    more hippy punching engaged in by ABG.

    Parent
    I'm nobody's idea of a hippy (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:02:34 AM EST
    I am pretty sure.

    The hippies would be insulted to hear me associated with them.

    Parent

    Me too (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:05:30 AM EST
    but apparently ABG can't figure that out. He's completely bought into the GOP frame on that.

    Parent
    It (1.00 / 0) (#40)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:39:11 AM EST
    is easier to call me (and others) a conservative than it is to address their points.

    Parent
    Did I call (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:45:09 AM EST
    you a conservative? No, I didn't but I said that you had bought into their frames or wording. Attacking the "left" is so tiresome and I'm not even on probably what you would (or maybe you would I dont know) "left".

    Parent
    Must have been a phantom punch (2.00 / 1) (#34)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:12:14 AM EST
    What I was doing was proving defense against Pragmatic Liberal Punching.

    I am defending Klein and those like him, not attacking the Further Left.  The Further Left is A-OK with me.  Those are my people too.

    I just can't let them beat up on my other people (the Moderate Left) without stepping in to say something.

    Parent

    Pragmatic (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:46:07 AM EST
    liberal means you stand for nothing as far as I can see.

    Parent
    That's not fair to ABG (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by sj on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:52:28 AM EST
    He clearly and steadfastedly stands for Obama.  

    Parent
    Sorry, I'm just laughing at the notion (none / 0) (#53)
    by shoephone on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:00:51 PM EST
    that BTD is a member of the "far left."

    Your arguments are based on fantasies in your head.

    Parent

    Compared to Obama he is (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 01:48:44 PM EST
    ABG's comment is revealing in that way.

    Parent
    The point of this post (none / 0) (#70)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:29:17 PM EST
    is "take sides."  It's healthy for political debate.

    Parent
    Full Disclosure (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:00:38 AM EST
    I am under 55 and would be the victim of the "market based reforms" that are being bandied about on Medicare.


    Those over 55 should not feel (none / 0) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:38:06 AM EST
    that they are out-of-the woods.  While Ryan, of course, intends to placate the present old-timer voter base, a change- over to his voucher plan may well place traditional Medicare recipients in jeopardy during the transition.

    The possibilities for Medicare dismantlement prior to the actual implementation date of the new program are many,  primary ones being hospital and physician opt-outs based on constricted reimbursements or limitation of needed procedures.  The result would be sort of like being happy that you got to be seated in a restaurant five minutes before the kitchen closes only to find your dining experience unsettled by removal of salt and pepper shakers and cloths from surrounding tables, the dimming of the lights and staff saying goodnight to one another.

    Parent

    Repubs will be howling about greedy geezers and (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jawbone on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 07:23:14 PM EST
    lazy good for nothing freeloading seniors.

    Then they will demand "shared sacrifice," with, as the quip goes, the rich increasing their share and the rest getting sacrificed.

    Parent

    McCaskill/Corker if passed would (none / 0) (#94)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 04:19:31 PM EST
    require cuts to mandatory spending like Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security.  It would mandate that spending, within ten years, go from 24.7% of GDP to 20.6% of GDP.

    The cuts in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs would grow much larger in subsequent decades. For one thing, the 20.6 percent cap would phase in gradually and would not be fully in effect until 2023 and thereafter. For another, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid costs are projected to rise substantially in future decades due to the aging of the population and rising health care costs and, thus, would have to be cut by increasingly severe amounts to meet the Corker-McCaskill level.

    Policymakers could avoid across-the-board cuts by making specific cuts in specific programs to meet the Corker-McCaskill cap before a sequester would occur. But to do so, they almost certainly would have to enact the kind of radical policies for Medicare and Medicaid that are included in House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan's sweeping budget plan. Those policies include replacing traditional Medicare with a voucher for purchasing private insurance, converting Medicaid to a block grant, and eliminating most or all of health reform's provisions that extend coverage to an estimated 34 million more Americans, including the Medicaid expansion and subsidies to make insurance affordable for working families. Indeed, even the cuts in the Ryan plan -- which also includes very sharp reductions in non-security discretionary spending, one-third of which would be eliminated by 2021 -- would not be quite deep enough in some years to meet the Corker-McCaskill cap. The Ryan plan produces total federal spending of 20 ¾ percent of GDP in 2030. link



    Parent
    Me too. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:44:19 AM EST
    My husband and I were talking about the fact that if the Ryan plan goes into effect, we can just forget about ever being able to retire. Insurance alone would be about 24K a year or more.

    Parent
    How many seniors will be allowed (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 11:23:14 AM EST
    to work forever even if they are physically able to do so? Jobs are scarce and regardless of the laws against it, age discrimination is alive and well.

    A job as a Wal-mart greeter is not going to provide you with affordable health care.

    Parent

    disemployment (h/t lambert) (none / 0) (#60)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 12:13:13 PM EST
    I think it's not so much that it couldn't (none / 0) (#4)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:01:10 AM EST
    possibly work, but that there is no realistic way to make the transition in this country, with our particularly predatory brand of capitalism.
    But hey, the elderly are missing out on the experience of dying in ERs for lack of insurance. Once they start having these wake-up calls, they're sure to get their medical finances in order.

    Sorry, but it's not simply whether (none / 0) (#5)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:06:01 AM EST
    some people have differing views. There is a great deal of corruption present in the representation of views on finance and medicine in the public sphere.
    Ezra may not be corrupt (although I'm sure he knows  on which side his bread is buttered) but there are plenty of people advocating market reforms for this or that who are completely corrupt, earning oodles of dollars to peddle fantasy.


    I should have said, there is not (none / 0) (#6)
    by observed on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:06:56 AM EST
    a competing incentive to falsify data supporting the public options, or at least not nearly so much.


    Parent
    I wonder if Obama (none / 0) (#19)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 15, 2011 at 10:41:11 AM EST
    could've sold the healthcare plan more easily if he just straightforwardly embraced the market approach.  We didn't get a public option and it wasn't particularly advocated for by the WH, so why not just sell healthcare as what it ended up being?

    How would that help (none / 0) (#142)
    by Politalkix on Sun Apr 17, 2011 at 03:14:55 PM EST
    The left would complain even more strongly that his starting position was way to the right. The right would try to drag him even further right.
    In any case, I still do not think that the President is the problem (in a general sense, though on some specific things each of us may have very strong disagreements with him). The left's biggest problem is that the shoes of Ted Kennedy has not been filled yet.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#145)
    by lilburro on Mon Apr 18, 2011 at 09:40:07 AM EST
    a vocal liberal contingent needs to be present, somewhere.  Schumer's not really up to the task apparently (esp. when it comes to policies relating to Wall St.).

    There were a bunch of ideological approaches on the table with the health bill.  We got something a lot more similar to Wyden-Bennett than anything else.  Hypothetically, he could've just as easily started with Wyden-Bennett and negotiated down from there.  The real problem IMO was letting the Gang of Six come up with a pile of crap and using that as the starting point.

    If Obama couldn't have started with Wyden-Bennett, I would guess that was the fault of liberals in the party.  And so the public option was batted around.  

    I just think the oddest thing about the public option debate in the blogs was that up to a certain point, most people, even hardcore Obama supporters, seemed to be on board with the public option and believe it was politically possible.  There were two approaches; outside pressure or trusting Obama.  When the PO appeared unlikely to happen, people split into camps; the PO was suddenly politically impossible, or Obama didn't particularly care about it.

    I think the conclusion that Obama did not particularly care about it is much more reasonable.  Fine; but that seems like a fairly definitive rebuttal to the "shut up and trust Obama" approach.

    Anyway at least we are on the same page in terms of getting halfway decent legislation passed.  Start as left as possible.  

    Parent