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Trump Avoided Vietnam Service Through Deferments

Smoking Gun:

Despite Donald Trump’s claim this week that he avoided serving in the Vietnam War solely due to a high draft number, Selective Service records show that the purported presidential aspirant actually received a series of student deferments while in college and then topped those off with a medical deferment after graduation that helped spare him from fighting for his country, The Smoking Gun has learned.

[. . . On] October 15 [1969], [Trump's] classification was switched to 1-Y, which was given to men deemed qualified for military service “only in time of national emergency.” The 1-Y classification came a month after Trump underwent an “Armed Forces Physical Examination,” according to Selective Service records, which note the results of the exam as “DISQ.”

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    Let me explain (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:09:21 AM EST
    I do not think Donald Trump is running for President so I have to get my shots in while I can.

    He'll never reveal his finances as they will demonstrates he is a fraud who only makes money from his licensing deals.

    The reality is Trump is a Kardashian-style businessman.

    I think (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:12:43 AM EST
    Trump is a front man. He's the one going around raising all these issues about Obama so that the rest of the GOP can keep their hands clear. Just MHO.

    Parent
    I don't know that he has the emotional (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:14:51 AM EST
    intelligence to pull of something that covert.  I think he's always for himself and that's the size of him.

    Parent
    I think the GOP is allowing him to (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:35:16 AM EST
    be the front man for crazy, not in a coordinated way, but in a calculated way where they don't have to do anything except let the people see the crazy until it starts to burn out - taking a lot of the Tea Party-types with them - at which point, some nice, seemingly sane Republican will start to get the spotlight - and look a lot better for the comparison.

    In the end, I think we will be faced with choices that resemble those can-you-spot-the-12-differences-between-these-two-pictures; I think a lot of people will stay home, or not vote any presidential ticket, out of a sense that it doeesn't matter who's elected because there isn't enough of a difference between the nominees.

    Parent

    That's (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:41:53 AM EST
    what I think too. Then in shoots Romney who looks positively sane compared to Palin, Bachmann, Trump etc.

    A poster on one of the other threads made a good point. The Dems are going to get their 40% and the GOP is going to get their 40% no matter what but what about all the people that Obama has ticked off? Will they sit home? yeah, probably. Then if it's Romney the GOP is going to have an unmotivated base too so you get two unmotivated bases and a low turnout election and it's anybody's game.

    Parent

    Low turnout (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by cal1942 on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:13:41 PM EST
    is what I've suspected will be the outcome if voters perceive that it doesn't matter who gets elected.  Without the appearance of a strong, actual Democrat I believe that turnout will be steadily worse as time goes on.

    Parent
    Never squander a crisis :) (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:45:12 AM EST
    He should certainly be face the fricken planted (none / 0) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:13:21 AM EST
    though.  I mean really....how dare you question our President's foreign policy when doing it the Donald's way would mean we would all be asking each other, "How many soldiers per gallon are you getting in that thing?"  Time is up Donald.  If he's trying to stir up some interest in his brand now that easy credit is gone, someone please tell The Donald that he is blowing his own a$$ up.

    Parent
    Instead of (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:20:22 AM EST
    thing that the Donald is doing is that he's not pretending it's for altruistic reasons like Bush did, he's coming right out and saying what you are saying he is.

    Right now we can pretend it's not about "soliders per gallon" but in reality you could argue that is what Bush intended when he went into Iraq. I mean Donald is saying right up front that he thinks we should be building an empire when many others seem to be doing it but trying to hide behind other reasons.

    Maybe this kind of bluntness will start a discussion of whether this is where we want to go or then again maybe not. Who knows.

    Parent

    Sounds good on Fox News (none / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:26:49 AM EST
    It is so hard for me to believe that The Donald is well traveled when I hear him say some of the things he's said lately.  He really needs to go on IED safari and pick up a few body parts off the road.  He sounds like an idiot to me, and now, today, that has been gilded :)

    Parent
    I know (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:36:25 AM EST
    In a lot of ways he doesn't sound any different than a south GA redneck with some of his views. That's one of the reasons that I think he doesn't even believe this stuff himself. He has found a product to hawk and he's getting some people to buy it. Apparently there's a shortage in the marketplace for someone selling his snake oil so he's found a market and is delivering the product.

    Parent
    Idiot (none / 0) (#19)
    by star on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:33:51 AM EST
    He certainly sound idiotic to me. I do not think he is running for ANYTHING. he is an egomaniac lapping up all the attention he is getting. He has not said anything SUBSTANTIAL ,but mouthing of F words in public forums. A person seriously considering Office, will polish his language at least.

    Even republicans are NOT taking him seriously. so wishing that he is the R nominee seems to be a bit of wishful thinking from us. If hoping to run against Trump is a serious strategy of Obama, then god help his re-election bid.

    Parent

    I thought he was polling well (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:36:46 AM EST
    with Republicans.  Has he fallen from grace now?  I haven't checked, but I will google now.

    Parent
    In a new Rasmussen poll he is leading everyone (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:39:33 AM EST
    Course as soon as anyone wants him not to all they have to say is the magic word Chickenhawk.  I love that word cuz when it applies it sticks like a sticky bomb :)

    Parent
    Brilliant (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dadler on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:52:11 AM EST
    I'd only change it to Kardashian-LIKE.  Any genuine style tends to run screaming at the sight of him.  Come on, the guy's "empire" was supposedly built on real estate.  How's THAT market going?  May he soon be reduced to making appearances at Chik-Fil-A openings.  Not likely, but really nice to imagine.  

    Parent
    i think you're being kind: (none / 0) (#78)
    by cpinva on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 02:54:35 PM EST
    if mr. trump had to cash out this very moment, he'd owe money, because of his negative net worth. i believe mr. kardashian, in the same situation, would have a few hundred dollars left in the bank.

    the bottom line is that both live off of borrowed money, but they owe so much the banks can't afford to actually foreclose on them.

    Parent

    well-versed on the Kardashians. To your credit.

    That said, I agree with your point, I bet his RE net worth is <0.

    Parent

    I don't (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:11:13 AM EST
    think this will get much traction. I think what Jeralyn put up about him actually spending money to try to get innocent people put to death is way worse than this. Nobody seemed to care about Clinton's draft status and nobody seemed to care about Bush's junk with the TANG. (I'm talking about the general public here).

    Clinton ran in a different era though (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:18:28 AM EST
    literally.  We had been mostly what we considered "at peace" for quite a length of marked time, and we were celebrating our peacemaking choices after what Reagan did to us a few times.  Since 9/11 it really does matter if someone showed up for service or they got themselves some deferments.  When you add up his deferments alongside his all out War Hawk talk, he is beyond PATHETIC.

    Parent
    I understand (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:24:17 AM EST
    where you're coming from here but that would also disqualify Obama in a way since he never served in the military.

    Maybe I'm wrong here but I'm thinking about Truman who never served in the military either.

    Parent

    You cannot serve in the military (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:29:43 AM EST
    and be fine.  You can't have been called upon though when others were going and seek deferments....and you certainly can't lie about it all either.

    Parent
    lying is one thing (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by CST on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:39:14 AM EST
    seeking deferments for the Vietnam war is an entirely different thing.

    A lot of people had strong moral objections to that war.  I'm not gonna hold a survival instinct against someone.  That being said, I think I get what you mean about "chickenhawk".  You can't seek deferments and be a hawk, because then you are a hypocrit.  But in a Clinton scenario, I'm more than okay with it.

    Parent

    If he was a Democrat he could get some (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:47:30 AM EST
    mileage but he wouldn't get under the wire.  You can't run as a Republican like this though more than a couple of blocks.  This is an enormous embarrassment that the base cannot deal with :)  They have no arguments to defend what he has done :)  Candidate Trump is over, he is fried.

    Parent
    Did you happen to watch what he said (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:50:26 AM EST
    on Fox about Libya and Iraq?  If you didn't you need to.  See, someone like me takes huge offense to Donald Trump saying the things he has said about our policy in those countries because our loved ones are becoming body parts on roads in Iraq.  In Trump world Libya would be the next body part garden for U.S. soldiers.  Then when you finish icing that cake with the fact that the Donald wouldn't even show up for war when it was his turn....well, my blood boils.

    Parent
    Sorry, meant to type that you can not have (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:30:30 AM EST
    served in the military.

    Parent
    Oh but Truman did serve, (none / 0) (#17)
    by brodie on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:32:50 AM EST
    in WWI at captain rank iirc, and it was in combat.

    The last 3 presidents haven't been military (not counting Shrub's fraudulent time in the TX Champaign Brigade), but before that you have to go back quite a ways to find a non-vet prez.

    Parent

    Reagan (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:43:38 AM EST
    didn't serve in the military other than hanging around Hollywood during WWII and making films for the army or some such. I don't really see that as counting.

    Parent
    Right, forgot about the Gipper (none / 0) (#35)
    by brodie on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:54:56 AM EST
    I don't think he ever left California, and mostly "saw action" on the sound stages of Hollywood making military training films.  Only thing I can say about that is it's still more than what one John Wayne did, who arranged to avoid any military duty, including even signing up for the Hollywood Stars Stateside Brigade.

    LBJ also put on a uniform but only barely managed to see any action in the actual war (one plane ride into combat as an observer, which he arranged to have blown out of all proportion as some heroic deed, requiring a Silver Star  ...)  He was also at the time congressman, so got plenty of perks and privileges, or at least that's what he thought his position deserved, and so tried to work the system (along with buddy John Connally) to get same.

    Parent

    Some of our greatest presidents (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:43:34 AM EST
    Never served in the military.

    Truman was in the Army in WWI, and then transferred to the Army Reserve.

    And not to be insensitive, but except for those who were directly affected by Vietnam - do most people even care about Vietnam anymore?  I think not.

    Parent

    I do care about it (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:21:26 AM EST
    My Dad was serving there....I can still remember him paking up to go.....

    Everyone alive back then in the U.S. was affected by it--whether they acknowledge it or not...

    Parent

    I get it (none / 0) (#41)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:24:47 AM EST
    My dad was drafted too (I wasn't born yet).  He got lucky and got to serve his time out at Ft. Hood in Texas.

    But if you ask most people (and most voters) today whether it's an issue that Trump got deferments for Vietnam, my guess is that a vast majority will not care.

    Parent

    A commenter not long ago (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:32:22 AM EST
    here said that they were same age as Ezra and they were aware of what Vietnam cost us, and the pain and suffering it brought to many.  So what are the facts?  Does Vietnam matter or not?  It matters to me.  I think it matters to many people.

    Parent
    Agree. But, if Trump received student (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by oculus on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:36:27 AM EST
    deferments, so did many, many others.  And if the medical exam wasn't rigged by the military and/or Trump, he was entitled to that classification.  

    Parent
    Four student deferments (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:49:39 AM EST
    And then one mystery medical deferment :) Four student deferments is huge!  What Republican Presidential candidate have we ever had who was called up for duty when the whole rest of the country was going felt entitled to 4 student deferments?  I think its outrageous to think for one minute that Donald Trump ever intended to serve his country while the poor boys from the hood died and died and died.

    And the "mystery" medical deferment when he was a college athlete?  Is it another anal cyst?

    All this, and Donald Trump is just fine suggesting that more boys in the hood can go some place and die and die and die some more and keep him in the gravy.  And the cherry on top....The Donald lied about all of it.

    Parent

    Maybe no president but a Republican (none / 0) (#51)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24:21 PM EST
    Vice President got four student deferments and a fifth deferment a "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents.

    When Cheney became eligible for the draft, during the Vietnam War, he applied for and received five draft deferments.[17][18] In 1989, The Washington Post writer George C. Wilson interviewed Cheney as the next Secretary of Defense; when asked about his deferments, Cheney reportedly said, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."[19] Cheney testified during his confirmation hearings in 1989 that he received deferments to finish a college career that lasted six years rather than four, owing to sub par academic performance and the need to work to pay for his education. Initially, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was only taking older men. When he became eligible for the draft, he applied for four deferments in sequence. He applied for his fifth exemption on January 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant. He was granted 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. In January 1967, Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft. link


    Parent
    Yes...but a Vice President (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:28:10 PM EST
    who has a heart on its last leg prior to 9/11 is different :)  Perhaps Donald Trump can be someone's vice if anyone will have him but he cannot be CIC at this time in our nation's history.

    Parent
    Student deferments (none / 0) (#62)
    by KD on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:15:48 PM EST
    Both Dick Cheney and Joe Biden received five student deferments.

    Parent
    Joe Biden didn't make President (none / 0) (#113)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 10:55:42 AM EST
    Strange though how the Biden Plan for Afghanistan is the most inhumane plan though isn't it?  We already know that Dick Cheney isn't human when it comes to handing out bloodshed with a smile :)

    Parent
    Since those who never served in war, (none / 0) (#79)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 02:57:55 PM EST
    or even been in the peacetime military can never really understand what it means to put one's life on the line for country and comrades, maybe it's time we either consider some form of compulsory service for men and women , or - since that's just never going to happen, ever - maybe we need to realize that the people we were and the decisions we made and the ideas we had and the things we believed in when we were 18, or 22 or 25 may not be the same as they are when we are 35 or 55 or 70, and stop treating people like cowards and hypocrites because they are not the same now as they were then - with the understanding that there is no "pass" for stupid.

    We've all - most of us - become complacent about letting other people make the sacrifices so that we can go about our lives, our sometimes shallow and silly and lazy lives.  Or maybe we think that the contributions we're making to society are just as valuable - that it means something to raise good and loving and strong children who understand how much they have and how we must give back to others, to be teachers and doctors and run soup kitchens and help people out of hopelessness.  And maybe some people just don't care as long as they don't have to be the ones to defend the nation.

    Yes, it offended me that a Dick Cheney could work the system to avoid serving his country when so many others who believed their lives to be just as valuable answered their country's call - and then years later, seem to fairly drool over going to war - having other people once again fight for him.  

    Did my husband, who was 21 at the time, think his fear of never living to see 22, of coming home in pieces should have allowed him to stay home, that his own hopes and dreams were so much more valuable than someone else's that he should have been able to be exempt?  I'm sure he wished that were so, but with a low draft number, he ended up enlisting in the Army, because he was at least smart enough to know that he didn't want to be drafted into the Marines - which was where other draftees in his area ended up.

    If we're going to make a habit of going to war - and it kinda seems like that's what we're doing - we either need a draft with little wiggle room, so that it isn't just the poor schlub who has to serve, or we need compulsory military service.  

    In the meantime, the Donald Trumps of the world need to be asked some serious questions, and we have to demand something as close to honest as possible in the way of answers.  "Boardroom" wars are not the equivalent of going into a war zone with no guarantee of coming back.  "Commanding" an army of employees is not the equivalent of commanding an army .

    So, we have to make up our minds: if there's going to be this constant tension because someone who has never served in the military wants a position where he - or she - has the power to send others into war, maybe military service also has to be a qualification for holding that office.  If it's not a requirement, then do we have to let it go and try to convince ourselves that leadership skills, no matter where they are learned, are sufficient to hand someone the title of Commander-in-Chief?

    I don't know the answer.


    Parent

    You know I did not mean it like that, (none / 0) (#101)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 07:29:01 PM EST
    Donald; I was in no way denigrating the losses anyone has suffered as a result of a loved one serving.

    The critical part of that sentence you quoted was
    "what it means to put one's life on the line," as in one's own life.

    I have never, EVER, belittled or trivialized anyone's service, or anyone's loss; I am the daughter and granddaughter of men who proudly served their country, and the wife of another who served as well.

    I thought you were better than that, Donald, but it seems I was mistaken.

    Parent

    Whew! (none / 0) (#104)
    by NYShooter on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 09:41:15 PM EST
    I wrote a comment letting Donald know how preposterous his interpretation of your remarks was. But then I thought of being on the receiving end of what you'd have to say to me about my "defending" you. (as if you needed defending)

    Thankfully, I hit the "delete" key.

    lol

    Parent

    While I'm a firm believer that (none / 0) (#115)
    by Anne on Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 10:38:31 PM EST
    it's usually best if the one to whom a comment was directed be the one who responds, I certainly don't mind knowing that I wasn't the only one who thought Donald's comment was completely uncalled for.

    I note that it was more or less a hit-and-run by him, which also says something, doesn't it?

    Thank you for letting me know that you felt as I did; I do appreciate it!

    Parent

    It seems like too often (none / 0) (#114)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 11:01:44 AM EST
    our leaders that have never served have no empathy for the civilians that must attempt to survive their military plans too.  I do know some soldiers who never gain that, but a huge majority do...they see the faces around them and they see and understand the whole picture in much greater detail.  I don't know what the answer is either.  I will say that President Obama seems to seek a use of force that honors the civilians, even if this means soldiers will be in harms way.  And soldiers are for the most part fine with that because they have always known being in harms way to protect the innocent is part of their job and they knew it when they signed on.

    Parent
    Isn't the greater issue that Trump LIED (none / 0) (#91)
    by caseyOR on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 04:54:03 PM EST
    about how he avoided VietNam? My understanding is that people in the military take honesty quite seriously. I know I do.

    I don't object to the deferments. Many, many guys used deferments to escape that war. During college I volunteered as a draft counselor, helping boys avoid the draft. It was a perfectly reasonable position to take during that time. No reason to lie about it, which is what Trump did.

    Let's look at our VietNam era candidates. In 1988 we learned that GOP vice-presidential candidate Dan Quayle's father got Dan a cushy and hard-to-come-by position in the Indiana National Guard, which meant Dan was safe from VietNam. Bill Clinton used student deferments and some possible sleight-of-hand and then got a high draft lottery number. Al Gore enlisted and served in VietNam.

    We get to 2000, and we have 5 deferment Cheney and another my-powerful-daddy-got-me-in-the Guard candidate named George W. Bush. Al Gore, as noted above, served in the Army.

    The 2004 election saw decorated Naval officer John Kerry defeated by National Guard slacker Bush.

    And, finally, in 2008, VietNam POW McCain, had a
    female running mate Palin was exempt from VietNam angst by virtue of her age (too young) and the fact that women were never drafted. McCain lost to Obama, who was a child during VietNam, and became an adult in the era of the all-volunteer military. He ran with 4 deferments Joe Biden.

    I don't see any election where not serving in VietNam cost a candidate very much at all. If it was a serious issue for voters, GW Bush would never have won the White House.

    So, I'm not seeing how Trump's deferments are so bad for his credibility. The lie, however, that is bad.

    Parent

    I think that both issues matter (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 09:04:54 AM EST
    He obviously lied because he is hiding something significant.  I don't think military service is a golden egg in politics, but it is a factor and it does matter and particularly matters at a time when we are at war.  I think someone can be a good CIC even in war times and not have any military service in their background.  But some people have been raised in an environment believing that war is a feasible tool to get treasures that the leaders want even though we have thousands of years of history telling us otherwise that cost almost never equals the gain if the gain is ever even obtained.  And doing such things is also very unethical in this time, or at least for me it is.

    Often the only thing that is accomplished is lots and lots of people dead.  Some of our leaders have no idea what war looks like and entails until it is too late....like what the Bush administration did to all of us in Iraq.

    Parent

    that was me (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by CST on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:42:46 PM EST
    and part of that is about understanding why people wouldn't go.

    You said your grandfather thought it was crazy to be in the military and if anyone got killed it was your job to make sure it wasn't you.  That's the mentality that had a lot of people avoiding that war, with very very good reason.

    I understand the hypocracy of doing that and then being hawkish with other people's kids.  But I can't demonize that mentality for that era because it was a valid position to take.  And it's also (IMO) why we don't have a draft right now.  Vietnam matters in the sense that we have to be able to learn from it.  But part of that is knowing that you shouldn't force young people to fight in a useless war.  And if Donald Trump didn't feel like dying when he was 20 for a useless cause I'm not gonna hold that against him.  I will hold the fact that he wants to send others to die for a useless cause (or oil) against him.

    Parent

    Let me get this right (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    You are saying that Donald Trump was a peacenik back then and now suddenly he is an INSANE war hawk, and you want me to give him a pat on the back for being this peacenik that HE NEVER WAS.  He was just looking for a way to get over.  That is what his class does now and they did back then while the black kids died and the poor kids died.

    Parent
    that's not what I'm saying at all (none / 0) (#60)
    by CST on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:10:32 PM EST
    If someone had tried to draft me for Iraq I would've done anything in my power to not go.

    And no, I don't think I deserve a pat on the back for that either, but I sure as hell wasn't gonna risk my life or kill anyone because G.W. wanted some more oil and to avenge his daddy.

    So no, I don't judge that choice.  I judge the choices he makes today.

    Parent

    I understand that if someone would (none / 0) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:23:22 PM EST
    have drafted you for Iraq you would have avoided going any way possible.  Are going to run for President though and get on FOX NEWS today and say that all of Iraq's oil should be ours right now and if any other surrounding countries get upset about that, "Who cares?"  

    AND AS IF...as if foreign fighters filtering in from Syria and Iran weren't the biggest threat to our soldiers and on some level probably still are.  As if munitions from Iran aren't involved in the creation of the IEDs that went off and go off near the Iran Iraq border.  As if foreign fighters coming across the unsecurable Syrian border and inflaming Fallujah and Ramadi.  As if we could ever get a drop of oil out of that country without the pipelines being blown every other day.  But when you are comfortable having other people die for you....Who Cares?

    Oh Yeah, and Libya, all your oil is ours too says The Donald.  What happens if Libya says NO though?  And we get all of their oil for those Tomahawks....I mean it's a great fricken deal but the country isn't stable after those Tomahawks and is at war.  So if they say yes to giving us the oil, whoever the they is that The Donald decides gets to run things, does he send in boots on the ground to secure THIS DEAL?  Who dies then?  How many die then?  The Donald is an evil Chickenhawk.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#65)
    by CST on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:28:08 PM EST
    that Donald Trump is, to quote the onion, "A Festering Pile of $hit".

    But that opinion has everything to do with what you talk about in your post about what he's doing today.

    Frankly, I'd have a problem with those statements from someone who had fought in Vietnam.

    Parent

    What statements? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:33:15 PM EST
    Chickenhawk?  If that disturbs you...well, I'm probably just the first person you will hear all that from.  You will hear these words coming from "better" people shortly :)  He's a Chickenhawk and an evil one at that :)

    Parent
    no not yours (none / 0) (#68)
    by CST on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:40:23 PM EST
    I actually like chickenhawk, never heard it before but I may steal it :)

    I mean the stuff Trump is saying all over Fox News.  I don't care how many wars you've fought in, that $hit ain't cool.

    Parent

    Sorry, misunderstood you (none / 0) (#70)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:43:58 PM EST
    It sort of sounded like yadda yadda yadda to me when I first heard it.  I didn't feel like breaking it all down in my head, but then I find out today that here he is....getting the Karl Rove Dick Cheney deferments...the things that debacles are made of :)  And I start feeling compelled to break all this down in my head...how would he have all this oil.  He can't do any of it affectively without soldiers and big guns and bombs and body parts and things.

    Parent
    I care too (none / 0) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:27:15 AM EST
    Vietnam greatly damaged my Uncle due to PTSD.  But Donald did everything he could to sit it out and got that done.  Good for him and now he speaks of desiring to give even more soldier PTSD because to him it is the right thing to do.  And sure it is, he has no idea what real war is.  He was too much of a coward to go find out himself when everyone else had to, but will send hordes of others into it with a glad heart.

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    So many killed (none / 0) (#102)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 07:35:54 PM EST
    I can remember Walker Cronkite giving the weekly body counts.  We would lose 300 a week, and say we killed three times that amount of the enemy.

    But jbindc does show how nothing lasts. Even the pain and death of Vietnam.  Even the Apollo Moon program gets little attention in a small, dusty room off the side of the Air and Space Musuem.....

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:47:11 AM EST
    that's the larger story. A lot of people have moved on past that and since people who are in their early 50's never even faced a draft, there are a ton of people that this means nothing to at all.

    Parent
    Here's a list (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:06:15 AM EST
    People in their early 50's (none / 0) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:28:09 AM EST
    Have sons and daughters who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and perhaps still do.  It matters to them.

    Parent
    I'm sure (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:35:14 AM EST
    they do but I'm talking about the civilian population at large. But then again, we're still fighting the Civil War here in the south so maybe it's more important than I realize :)

    Parent
    We have too many wounded soldiers (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:06:11 PM EST
    without arms and legs and too many soldiers coming home in body bags for Trump to get away with not showing up for his own duty but yodeling to the world that if he were President he would have Iraq's oil and Libya's oil too...and that would all be America's oil.  As if BushCo didn't give it their all to get that done in one of those countries and didn't almost break our military in half.

    Chickenhawk Donald would put even more soldier's in wheelchairs and body bags with a glad heart and he would sleep well at night.  And he would never accomplish any of that because someone much more heinous than he is only attempted half of that and failed HUGE and killed and forever maimed thousands of America's kids doing it!

    Too many people gave up their weekend and drove to no place Crawford TX for me to ever believe that the civilian population at large doesn't care about such things.  Thousands of people, and if you have been to Crawford TX you would know that they have a gas station and a gift shop and that's about it.  I saw for myself that they do care.

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:34:41 PM EST
    but I wonder how many people even are touched by what you are saying. My family has been because I have a family member that went to Iraq but thankfully came back fine but it was enough for him to leave the military over it. He knew if he stayed he was going back and so he ended that possibility. I have another family member going to Af/pak soon and his mother is beside herself with worry.

    Donald Trump is a rich man and I'm beginning to think that all wars (or almost all wars) are rich man's wars because they reap the benefit while the working class pays the ultimate price.

    It's the same old story it always is IMO, wars are fine as long their family isn't going to have to be the one that's fighting it.

    Parent

    Some things will always be the same old (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:51:37 PM EST
    story.  So when the same old issue comes up with a Chickenhawk we need to go over it again line by line and remind everyone that people died then, people are dying now, and Chickenhawks are at the very least offensive and to some of us they are repulsive. They cannot be Commander in Chief.  They believe they are entitled to a different reality than the lowly unwashed, and they believe that it is a fine and wonderful thing when the lowly and the unwashed die for the visions of sugar plums that dance in their heads.  If you ever actually show up for a war, visions of sugar plums don't do so well surviving alongside all the blood, sweat, and tears.

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    What about Bill Clinton? (none / 0) (#84)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 03:02:43 PM EST
    Bill Clinton was more of a peacenik (none / 0) (#111)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 10:18:44 AM EST
    His actions back up his political beliefs and he was voted into office for those beliefs.  America was celebrating peaceful times when he put into office too. He has credibilty and authenticity for those in the middle on use of force IMO.  He wasn't a hawk in my book either when he was CIC.  Using force to protect the nation and for humanitary reasons isn't hawkish in my book and I think I represent the middle/center on that issue.  Donald Trump was no peacenik back then and certainly isn't now.  He gets deferments up the whazoo and one mystery medical deferment when he was a college athlete, but now speaks of "taking" Iraq's oil and Libya's too and he doesn't care what the surrounding countries of the Middle East would think about that either.  To take Iraq's oil you are going to need more boots on the ground...more than you have ever had there before.  To get enough stability in Libya to take their oil you will need boots on the ground...lots.  Sounds like we will be needing a draft under Trump too and he's a draft dodger.

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    I don't think it matters (none / 0) (#48)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:04:38 PM EST
    When it comes to pulling a lever in a voting booth.  If a candidate speaks to the issues here and now that matter to voters, they will not, as a group, care whether he got deferments almost 50 years ago for a war that most people nowadays, beleive was a mistake.

    Parent
    And I think you are wrong about that :) (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:06:50 PM EST
    truman most certainly did serve in the military! (none / 0) (#80)
    by cpinva on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 02:59:05 PM EST
    he was a captain of an army artillery unit, stationed on the front lines in france, during wwi. he had first-hand combat experience, and first-hand experience with the military chain of command, which is why he had the guts to finally dropkick macarthur, during the korean war.

    Parent
    sorry, (none / 0) (#82)
    by cpinva on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 03:00:07 PM EST
    that should have read "wwI".

    carry on!

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 03:27:05 PM EST
    I stand corrected on that account by several people.

    Parent
    Harry Truman served in the army in WW I. (none / 0) (#86)
    by caseyOR on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 03:17:15 PM EST
    He reached the rank of captain.

    Parent
    Truman served (none / 0) (#100)
    by the capstan on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 07:27:42 PM EST
    in WWI in combat in France as an artillery officer in his National Guard unit.

    Parent
    yea (none / 0) (#8)
    by CST on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:18:53 AM EST
    The only issue I see here is that he lied about it.

    A lot of people went to extremes to avoid this war, I'm hardly gonna hold an academic/medical deferment against Trump.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:21:48 AM EST
    Lying matters and Chickenhawk matters

    Parent
    Clinton got a lot of (none / 0) (#14)
    by brodie on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:29:08 AM EST
    MSM flak in the primaries for "dodging" the draft with his educational deferments and for appearing to have played the system to avoid service.  Ted Koppel and Nightline made a big deal out of it and forced Bill to appear and explain, as if he were a criminal defendant in the dock pleading for leniency from the judge.

    The public however seemed less interested in his draft avoidance than in his economic proposals, thankfully.  Or at least enough of them.

    Bill also wasn't viewed as a hypocrite like so many pro-war types in the GOP who also avoided service.

    Not sure if we know what Donald's views were about VN back then, but everyone of a certain age had a firm opinion in the 60s and it wouldn't surprise me to learn he was a hawk.

    Parent

    I think B. Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Jjc2008 on Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 10:33:06 AM EST
    got more flak from the right for protesting against Vietnam on "foreign" soil than for a deferrment. I think he was in a protest in England or something.

    To this day, I am nauseated by the scene of people making fun of the purple hearts (remember them wearing purple band-aids at the republican convention of 2004) to mock Kerry's service. Honestly, considering that W had a choice spot acquired by daddy for the TX national guard so he did not have to go to Vietnam, and W spent most of that MIA or drunk, I don't know how any of these chicken hawks on the right look in the mirror.  The same people that trashed Clinton as a traitor, mocked Kerry's purple heart, won't give a damn about Trump serving or not.  These low info voters that are so easily manipulated by the extreme right, the tea party, the evangelicals, will overlook anything.

    The same people who condemned Clinton for cheating, condemn Hillary for staying in her marriage, would vote for Newt or Trump or any of the serial grooms.  WHY?  Because they are f**king hypocrites about EVERYTHING.

    Regardless of the insistence about being patriots they never hold their own accountable.  Regardless of their insistence about how sacred marriage is, they will vote for multidivorced guys if they have an R by their name.  Regardless of their insistence of being "Christian" show them a verse from the New Testament that says over and over Jesus believed in helping the poor, being tolerant of those who are different, believed that accumulating riches is the worst thing one can do, they will vote down dems as being anti Christian for wanting to help others.

    Sorry for the rant but one cannot even debate those who are blatant liars and hypocrites....and who are worshipped by folks too ignorant to get it.

    Parent

    Repeat after me: (none / 0) (#116)
    by NYShooter on Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 10:48:09 PM EST
    "We make our own reality."

    What more do you have to know? There are people in the world who, for whatever reason, cannot function cognitively for themselves and so, are easily led by power seekers who recognize that and use it to their full advantage.  Why else would they pay a fat slob disk jockey (Limbaugh) over 300 million dollars and a certifiably insane babbling fool (Beck) countless millions of dollars? The followers of these charlatans may not be able to dress themselves in the morning.........but they vote.

    And I think Limbaugh, who can get 10-15 million people to vote whichever way he tells them to, is being short changed being paid only 300 mil.

    Its one thing for all those barely functional humans to vote for people and policies that promote their own suicide, but for us, presumably rational folks, to be constantly amazed at their lunacy is is almost as discouraging as the lunacy itself.

    Parent

    Once (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by lentinel on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:27:11 AM EST
    any article describes being sent into the politically cynically motivated hellhole of the War in Vietnam as, "fighting for (our) country",  I figuratively change the channel.

    Trump is.... (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:01:09 PM EST
    sheening.

    In the spirit of the day, Holy Hand Grenade! (none / 0) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:04:54 AM EST
    Well, he can never be a Republican President...only a Republican Vice President.  But Dick Cheney had better get to The Donald quickly and explain to him about having your inner voice and your outloud voice.

    Another day, another dollar, and just another phucking chicken hawk.

    Works for me (none / 0) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 10:42:50 AM EST
    But when the whole nation of young men is being called up and sent to war, and you get deferments.  Then you grow into someone of wealth and voice and you begin to croak about going to war to take everyone's oil cuz they owe you.  It all stops working then for that person

    Well, (none / 0) (#52)
    by lentinel on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:25:41 PM EST
    you know my orientation...
    I recoil when I think of what I consider to be the unthinking way in which Obama has committed our forces to conflicts which have yet to have been rationally explained.

    I also wonder whether the conditions in our veteran's hospitals have markedly improved since he took office. As I recall, as a candidate he called the conditions "substandard".

    I have no use for Trump, and I agree with you about his croaking.

    But I have no use for Obama either.
    He was against wars before he was for them.

    I don't think either of them can truly empathize with people.

    But ultimately, I have to defer to you when it comes to these matters.

    Parent

    Some things have improved for veterans (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 12:39:37 PM EST
    and those returning wounded.  One of our friends is working on the research around traumatic brain injury, and he was pretty frustrated the other day because we have been funding the "study" of it for years now but nobody is offering any possible solutions toward prevention and excelled early treatments that could reduce the longterm damage.  Everything has been about detection and being able to measure it.  He gets all pissed talking about it, and that is reassuring because it wasn't long ago when the Bush administration didn't even want to admit it was happening.  Some things take time though, he obviously has a few ideas in the hopper though about things they could try.

    There have been many leaps and bounds attained in prosthetics too because of what has happened to so many.  I don't know if treatment of PTSD sufferers has improved, because most aviators end up with an adjustment anxiety disorder :)  Not all though, some get shotdown and survive and have more trauma to deal with, I only know two such people and they seem to be getting their needs met but it would be hard to tell if they weren't probably because they are all always trying to maintain a constant composure under any and all stress.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#63)
    by lentinel on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:19:18 PM EST
    for your reply.

    Parent
    please stay on topic (none / 0) (#108)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 11:59:25 PM EST
    the topic is Trump and his deferments, and whether he is now lying about them

    Parent
    Thread cleaned of off topic comments (none / 0) (#109)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 12:08:16 AM EST
    Jim, stop hijacking threads. This isn't about the economy or the government, it's about Donald Trump and whether he's lying about his deferments.

    To get the conversation back on track, more from the Smoking Gun piece:

    In fact, the December 1969 draft lottery occurred about 18 months after Trump graduated from the University of Pennsylvania, where he studied business at the Wharton School. So, while claiming that he would "never forget" being at Wharton watching the draft numbers being drawn, the 64-year-old Trump seems to have misremembered, as candidates are fond of saying