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bin Laden Death Photo May Be Released

By Big Tent Democrat, Section War on Terror
Posted on Tue May 03, 2011 at 10:44:02 AM EST
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ABC:

"We are looking at releasing additional information, details about the raid as well as any other types of material, possibly including photos. We want to understand exactly what the possible reaction might be to the release of this information," said White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan on "Good Morning America."

[. . . ] The gruesome photos show bin Laden shot in the chest and the head by elite Navy SEALS on Sunday. The head wound is above his left eye and is a particularly grisly picture which has tempered officials willingness to display it.

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    bin Laden Death Photo May Be Released | 55 comments (55 topical)

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    Is there anything against Muslim (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 10:50:09 AM EST
    law in showing the photos?
    I would bet not.
    They give him an appropriate funeral (we are told).
    I have no problem with showing the photos.
    Just for the record (none / 0) (#35)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:09:47 PM EST
    burying someone at sea is not considered an appropriate Muslim funeral.

    They did their best, from reports, had fairly lengthy Islamic service/rites/prayers, etc, and "slid" the body into the sea.  So it sounds like they treated his body with perhaps more respect than it deserved, though I suspect there may have been some cheers go up at the end.

    I think they're going to have to show the photos and take the heat for it.

    Parent

    Not sure about burial at sea (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Yman on Tue May 03, 2011 at 03:59:54 PM EST
    While the general rule appears to require a burial in the earth, there appears to be a couple of exceptions, including:

    623. * If a person dies on a ship and if there is no fear of the decay of the dead body and if there is no problem in retaining it for sometime on the ship, it should be kept on it and buried in the ground after reaching the land. Otherwise, after giving Ghusl, Hunut, Kafan and Namaz-e-Mayyit it should be lowered into the sea in a vessel of clay or with a weight tied to its feet. And as far as possible it should not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by the sea predators.

    624. If it is feared that an enemy may dig up the grave and exhume the dead body and amputate its ears or nose or other limbs, it should be lowered into sea, if possible, as stated in the foregoing rule.

    Link

    The first clearly didn't apply.  An argument could be made for the second exception, although it clearly wasn't the reason they chose burial at sea.

    Parent

    Thanks for the info. (none / 0) (#37)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:14:16 PM EST
    Is cremation allowed? Obviously burial was not an option.

    Parent
    It is my understanding (none / 0) (#49)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 03, 2011 at 02:53:44 PM EST
    that cremation is not allowed.

    Parent
    Not as I understand it (none / 0) (#50)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 03:03:16 PM EST
    There's fairly explicit text in the Koran about the body needing to be returned immediately to the earth.

    Parent
    They'll release some image (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Dadler on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:12:23 AM EST
    Or the DNA profile.  Something.  Because they want to mitigate the amount of hay Republicans can continue to make with the "mystery."  Granted, hardcore conspiracy nuts, and others with a reactive need to deny any and all Democrats everything, will create a new sub-culture with this and continue it for years.  For a good number of other folks, however, who could be affected politically in a positive manner, it is a no-brainer to publicly release some form of "proof."

    Republicans? (none / 0) (#7)
    by star on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:31:45 AM EST
    I have not really heard Repubs making any hay out of conspiracy theory or disbelief about OBL's death. But it is nice to blame em for all and anything..

    Muslim world on the other hand is really skeptical and they DO thrive on conspiracy theories. That Jews perpetrated 9/11 to ruin Muslim good name is a widely held STRONG belief in most of mid east. I have even heard pak top guy Hamid Gul spout it on  Fareed Zakariah show.

    So ya releasing some kind of evidence is wise and necessary. How detail it should be ? I dont know. But I do believe this administration will handle it with sensitivity.

    Parent

    Who Cares What non-Violent People Think ? (none / 0) (#12)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:44:37 AM EST
    It's the ones who will retaliate that we should focus on.  If some dirt farmer in Norway doens't believe the hype, who cares.  

    If some young rich Saudi is inflamed to a such a degree, he decides to head to Afghanistan to fight the Communist pigs, scratch that, I mean Capitalist Pigs, I care.  We don't need OBL II created because Obama's junk isn't big enough to ward off the tin foil hat wearing crowd.

    Not to mention how extremely stupid it would be to lie, it's not like OBL can't get a video played, if indeed this whole thing was a hoax pretty sure it would be discovered.

    Parent

    Alex Jones... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Tue May 03, 2011 at 02:15:22 PM EST
    thinks the body has been on ice for years...then he went on about the signifigance of May Day to the Illuminati and it being very curious they thawed him out for an "official" death at this time...that guy is such a trip!

    Who the f*ck knows what to believe...Uncle Sam is at less than zero credibility...no more credible than knuckleheads on the internet, sad but true.  The air is safe at Ground Zero, we'll make a profit on the bailouts, teachers are our problem....the man lies for a living.

    Parent

    Already (none / 0) (#24)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:24:38 PM EST
    some GOP types have done their best to deflect credit from the Obama administration.  Fox News' website had a picture of Bush on the page about bin Laden's death.

    Parent
    Wait? Was Bush found at the compound (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:37:16 PM EST
    too?

    Parent
    ROTFL! (none / 0) (#36)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:11:07 PM EST


    Parent
    A true Republican (none / 0) (#30)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:44:09 PM EST
    believes that bin Laden is alive and well and Obama is lying and didn't kill bin Laden at all, and is just saying so in order to win an election 16 months from now, but he was dead from illness, probably kidney disease, while Bush was president.

    Parent
    Getting a new conspiracy up and running (none / 0) (#14)
    by magster on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:53:15 AM EST
    ... only to dispel the "silliness" after some Repub nominees have to give lip service to the nutters might be politically valuable.

    Parent
    I'm not going to be satisfied (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:13:05 AM EST
    until I see Osama's college transcripts.
    I want to know what kind of grades he got in his theology classes.

    So...showing photos of a dead (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Anne on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:24:02 AM EST
    bin Laden, bullet holes, blood and gore and all, would be somehow less inflammatory than showing the photos of the tortured detainees - you know, the photos Obama promised to release and then changed his mind about?

    A claim that the photos would inflame the passions of bin Laden supporters is at least a claim with some basis for credibility; if there are people who now want to posit that Obama's long-form birth certificate is a forgery, or photoshopped, you can be sure that there are people - probably the same people - who will declare that any photos released of a dead bin Laden are digitally altered, as well.

    If I had a choice, I'd rather deal with the conspiracy theorists we already know are cuckoo-for-coco-puffs than enraged johadists, but that's just me.

    Yes, but there are a lot of illiterate (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:28:59 AM EST
    people abroad who might appreciate seeing the photo.
    I'm sure there are many, many Muslims who are overjoyed that Bin Laden is dead. Give the proof for THEM.

    Parent
    As if this news hasn't been blared (none / 0) (#8)
    by Anne on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:36:44 AM EST
    from TV's and radios around the world?  

    Unless you want to claim that not being able to read also impairs one's ability to hear.

    Come on.

    Parent

    Weren't photos of Hussein released? (none / 0) (#9)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:40:36 AM EST
    I seem to remember death photos of him, maybe they weren't officially released though...

    Parent
    His hanging was botched (none / 0) (#10)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:42:44 AM EST
    so the pictures were 'unofficial'.

    Parent
    Bush handed him over to Dawa (none / 0) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 03, 2011 at 02:08:29 PM EST
    An organization that until Bush II's war we had listed as a terrorist organization :)  They were the ones who executed him, of course we knew they would do that.  They were not permitted to film the execution though, even though some of them did I guess with their phones.

    Parent
    They did use their camera phones (none / 0) (#53)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 03:49:45 PM EST
    and there was an 'unoffical' photo afterwards as well.

    Parent
    People who don't read probably don't (none / 0) (#11)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:43:48 AM EST
    understand what DNA is.


    Parent
    Oh, for heaven's sake... (none / 0) (#15)
    by Anne on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:54:18 AM EST
    even people who can read don't understand what DNA is.

    And besides, who is more likely to want vengeance - those who believe he is dead because they saw a photo of his head with a bullet hole in it, or those who believe he's still alive?

    Parent

    Indeed, as several jurors at the OJ trial (none / 0) (#17)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:57:30 AM EST
    proved, literacy is no guarantee of understanding DNA. Well, I assume they knew how to read...

    Parent
    I don't believe in refraining from (none / 0) (#22)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:22:39 PM EST
    a justifiable action out of fear of retaliation.
    If Osama is dead, that is far more of a reason to retaliate than releasing the photo.
    In my opinion, showing the photo serves a useful purpose; on the other hand, I don't feel strongly on the matter.

    Parent
    I thought that Obama should have (none / 0) (#34)
    by Anne on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:07:22 PM EST
    released the torture photos in the interest of full disclosure and to show those who thought the policymakers shouldn't be held accountable what it was they were excusing.

    My point was that if those photos were deemed too inflammatory, the Obama photos would seem to fit into the same category.

    Are they?

    Those who don't believe he's dead will not have their minds changed by a photo; those who would be incited to violence will not necessarily be any more engraged by the photos of a dead bin Laden than they will by the many video and pictures of  Americans flag-waving and dancing in the streets, or by the words of the president who declared justice to be done, thanks to our can-do American spirit.

    If we are ever to gain any movement to transparency, the photos ought to be released.

    Parent

    Abroad! (none / 0) (#18)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:13:20 PM EST
    I think we have plenty here at home as well.

    I really don't feel strongly either way on this but I've already seen news media recognition of the usual suspects who don't believe bin Laden was killed.  It wouldn't surprise me if that group's membership is coincident with the birthers.

    I don't like the fact that the media is all too eager to publish the rants of conspiracy nuts no matter how deranged.

    At least disclosure, as in the release of Obama's long form birth certificate, marginalizes the birther types as nut jobs.  The birthers themselves don't believe it (or don't want to believe it) but to the rest of the world it makes birthers seem even more unhinged.

    So I guess I have to fall down on the side of full disclosure.

    Parent

    My 13 y.o. daughter did a JFK report a couple.... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by magster on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:51:15 AM EST
    months ago and stumbled across JFK's autopsy photos researching.  She was pretty upset. Knowing that its OBL instead of JFK is a huge distinction, but the violent images could be pretty traumatic to kids.  

    Parent
    so don't show it to kids (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by CST on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:19:17 PM EST
    but I really disagree with this argument that we can't produce something that could be important because some kid might stumble upon it some day.

    They can see worse cr@p on the world wide web every day.

    I think to some extent the photos will be necessary for proof.  I don't like the spectacle of it all, but I think some people will need to see it to believe.  And frankly, I am only capable of "respecting" the dead so much.  This is still Osama Bin Laden we're talking about.  But then I would have donated his body to science if it weren't for the fact that it would unecessarily piss a lot of people off.

    Parent

    See my above post (none / 0) (#25)
    by brodie on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:30:23 PM EST
    -- I think lots of this stuff, grisly photos and the like, is already out there on the net and easily available to younger folks.  And, apart from certain porn images, I don't think we should be limiting what adults have access to based on whether it would be seen by children.

    As for releasing these things and reporting it responsibly, there's also no need for the media/cable news shows to run the images every 5 minutes for a full week or two, as the MSM did with the photos/video of the captive Saddam or, to a lesser extent but still overdoing it, his sons' death photos.  Maybe also a heads-up to those people with younger children -- with Saddam or sons, it was suddenly the disturbing image and rarely a warning.

    Parent

    If they are posted, they will be (none / 0) (#26)
    by magster on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:31:22 PM EST
    shown everywhere and posted everywhere.  You can't protect kids from the images if they are released.  Maybe they can pixelate the bullet holes or something....

    Parent
    if it were me (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by CST on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:38:46 PM EST
    I'd wait a few weeks and then release them.  Or release them confidentially to a few sources first if you have to, but let time pass for the spectacle to die down a bit.

    I remember watching the towers come down on TV after the fact.  You could hear screaming and see people jumping out of buildings.  It was all over the TV.  And yes, it was very disturbing.  But I still had to see it once for myself just to believe it really happened.  I don't see how this can be worse than that.

    Parent

    I remember as a 30 something (none / 0) (#20)
    by brodie on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:17:33 PM EST
    adult seeing the JFK ones for the first time, by accident, pre-Internet era, in a famous best-selling paperback edition of a book (which shall remain nameless) issued in the late 80s.  Very disturbing and I thought in poor taste.

    But then, in a recent YT search on just the case itself, I came upon autopsy photos displayed in the Related Videos section of that page.  Iow, these are now easily accessible these days, even to younger folks.  

    Parent

    Yes, quite disturbing (none / 0) (#51)
    by MKS on Tue May 03, 2011 at 03:12:13 PM EST
    especially the "Stare of Death" photo.

    BTW, I always thought that the best argument the grassy knoll proponents had was that the JFK autopsy photos did not match the X-rays.  One showed an entrance would in the front; and the other, in the back.

    Are Boswell and Humes still alive?

    Parent

    Yeah, when I looked at the photos (none / 0) (#54)
    by magster on Tue May 03, 2011 at 03:51:53 PM EST
    after the original Magster pulled them up, I got sucked into the "the magic bullet" debunking and how the autopsy photos disproved the Warren Commission findings.  That assassination has some troubling questions still unresolved.

    But back to the point, pictures of violently killed people are pretty unsettling.  I hope any OBL photos are released sensitively.

    Parent

    Some conspiracy theories (none / 0) (#56)
    by brodie on Tue May 03, 2011 at 04:13:13 PM EST
    (and probably more than just a few) have validity, as with this sorry mess of a case where, when you scratch the surface of the original fairy tale story, it begins to fall apart.  As with the autopsy evidence.

    Humes is deceased, dunno about Boswell, the only one of the 3 who had some (but very limited) experience with autopsies on shooting victims.  Best I can say about both is it was a military autopsy conducted under high-pressure conditions where the evidence shows they were taking orders -- from unnamed higher-ups -- as to how to proceed.  Boswell's testimony under oath at the Garrison trial confirms this.

    And speaking of releasing sensitive material, it was Comdr Humes, the lead autopsist of the group if not ultimately in charge, who admitted that he destroyed his original autopsy notes on Sunday, two days later, because, he said, they had blood stains from the president on them and he didn't want them displayed ghoulishly in public.

    Yeah, right.

    Parent

    After almost ten years, (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 03, 2011 at 11:56:45 AM EST
    so many deaths here and across the globe, $trillions of dollars expended (and still counting), and the loss of liberties,  the killing of the elusive Osama can't be verified on "say so" alone.  You do not have to be a conspiracy theorist to feel that evidence is required. Indeed, the Seals strategy, versus bombing, was intended to obtain evidence of his death.  It needs to be shared with those affected.

    If an American night raid on a Pakistani mansion, killing of some of its occupants with shots to the eye and chest of a man claimed to be Osama, followed by a nice religious ceremony prior to a sleep with the fishes did not cause problems in the "Arab Street", I doubt that physical evidence will do so.  Of course, this will not satisfy some, but provision of evidence is a harder case to battle than withholding evidence.

    One thing I wondered: (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Dr Molly on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:37:10 PM EST
    What's the story on the DNA identification? To identify based on DNA, you need a sample to match it to. Do they have a previous UBL DNA sample? Or one from a close relative or something?

    Since only the mother (none / 0) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 03, 2011 at 02:20:10 PM EST
    can be a known certainty wouldn't a close relative need to be his mother or a maternal sibling?

    Parent
    No full siblings available (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 03, 2011 at 02:36:08 PM EST
    DNA

    Parent
    Sister who died in America (none / 0) (#52)
    by MKS on Tue May 03, 2011 at 03:13:44 PM EST
    iirc

    Parent
    The photo (none / 0) (#19)
    by caramel on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:14:01 PM EST
    This is an absolute and sick joke! It has been released in Europe and experts, unanimously, agree: it is a photo montage.

    I have no doubt (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CST on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:23:12 PM EST
    that whetever photo has been released "in Europe" so far is a fake.

    Parent
    Obviously . . . (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by nycstray on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:36:16 PM EST
    someone "in Europe" needs to brush up on their photoshop chops . . . :)

    Parent
    I mean really... (none / 0) (#31)
    by CST on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:44:26 PM EST
    Why would an image of an event that occurred in Pakistan by the U.S. uber-secret-military be published in Europe first, unofficially, as "proof" of what happened.

    I have no doubt someone has produced a cr@ppy photoshop version of the events.  That doesn't mean it didn't actually happen.

    Parent

    critical thinking skills seem to be lacking (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by nycstray on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:54:38 PM EST
    these days . . .

    Parent
    Hey, I just realized the critical (none / 0) (#33)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:58:56 PM EST
    question that nobody has asked yet:
    How many "#2" Al Qaeda guys are left now? Did we get all 150 of them?
    Will there be a fight for the leadership?

    Related question... (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Tue May 03, 2011 at 02:35:57 PM EST
    are we sure Osama was the # 1 guy?

    He coulda just been the money man and face on the videos...a figurehead.  Kinda like our version of a president.

    Sh*t...what if the banks own the United States and Al Qaida?  Then what do we do?

    Parent

    Ok, this is terrible to say, but (none / 0) (#38)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:15:52 PM EST
    it occurs to me that there MUST be some nuts out there who think Osama was killed so that Obama could take over leadership of Al Qaeda.
    Has anyone read that theory yet?

    I'm surprised (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:40:31 PM EST
    that no one has said that Obama caught OBL because it takes a Muslim to catch a Muslim though Michael Regan came close.

    Parent
    What did he say? (none / 0) (#42)
    by observed on Tue May 03, 2011 at 02:02:14 PM EST


    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 03, 2011 at 02:19:07 PM EST
    I can't find it but it was something to the effect that it takes a Marxist to take out a terrorist or something.

    Parent
    Someone should email it to Wikileaks (none / 0) (#39)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:36:11 PM EST
    anonymously. Then there'd be no doubt it's official once it's "leaked".

    bin Laden Death Photo May Be Released | 55 comments (55 topical)

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