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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

I wasn't supposed to pay attention to the GOP debate last night was I? cuz I didn't.

Here's a blatantly sexist take on it:

Michelle Bachmann was able to speak in complete sentences and therefore has stolen the critical MILF vote (or more accurately, the vote of those who will vote for women they consider MILFs) from Palin.

Sheesh.

Open Thread.

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    Ugh. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by dk on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:57:48 AM EST
    I believe you mean well by linking to Booman as a means to point out and condemn sexism, and there is definitely a value in doing that to an extent.  However, I'm beginning to wonder whether it's reached the point that you should stop including links to his site at all so that you don't give him any extra business.  It's just so vile.  In the end, it just seems better to link to those who succeed in providing non-sexist critiques of these Republican bozos.

    The link is to Balloon Juice (none / 0) (#7)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:22:32 AM EST
    Whatever Booman is, he is not that crass (I didn't read him during 2007-8 but I doubt he was that over-the-top sexist either).

    Parent
    Could I cuckold this man or not? (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Addison on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:15:46 AM EST
    Well, it's (in my opinion) very much a side issue, but Booman's analysis of the debate concentrated almost entirely on whether Pawlenty had balls and/or was cuckoldable:

    Unlike Pawlenty, Perry doesn't come off as the kind of Beta Dog that will let other men take off with his wife. And that's the one area where I differ from Nate.

    People can sense a lack of balls on almost any issue and consign a candidate to oblivion.

    (source, just the main page)

    Sidenote: not that the debate or its moderation had any substance whatsoever (the worst I've ever watched during Stanley Cup commercial breaks), but maybe John King should've made it easier for Booman to suss out who to bet on for the GOP nomination, and simply tried to seduce the male candidate's wives for two hours?

    And his main criticism of Romney was that he was a "pretty boy". And this isn't cherry-picking or anything, the above ideas represent most of what Booman had to say about the meaningless debate over the course of two posts.

    So I'm not sure even a mild defense of his anti-sexist cred is in order on the basis of his debate reaction, either. Analysis of gender-based politics is still very much the axis he's working on, he's just hitting it from another angle.

    Parent

    Analysis on the axis of most (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:23:25 AM EST
    successful naughty bits :)

    Parent
    So I had to go read it (none / 0) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:56:10 AM EST
    I sure wish he wouldn't call the sitting President the Bid Laden Slayer.  This is a grim nasty business.  Can I please at the very least remain somber and human over the whole deal as long as possible, at least until someone attacks my President?  Do I have to whip out my Bin Laden Slayer when people have only just shown up to run qualifying laps?

    Parent
    Oops, my bad. (none / 0) (#20)
    by dk on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:21:24 AM EST
    I get those "B" blogs mixed up.  

    Let's not give business to Baloon Juice then.

    Parent

    And to think (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:20:33 AM EST
    There was a time when droves of angry women flocked to the Booman site, it's ironical :)

    Parent
    Hillary MILF comment (none / 0) (#79)
    by gaf on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:54:01 PM EST
    DHinMI(Dana Houle) one of DailyKos's Guest Bloggers & Front Pagers called Hillary a MILF during the primaries, right?


    Parent
    Morning in America! (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:52:21 AM EST
    Well, I am set to be laid off at the end of August.  I was planning to start looking for a new job around that point anyway so I am sort of glad about it as I haven't been too happy at my place of employment for a while now (I don't mean to sound insensitive, I am sure my tune will change).  I had invested a lot emotionally in this company and didn't want to abandon it but I guess that's not a concern anymore!  Jeez.  

    So anyway we'll see what happens I guess.  Let's hope those tax cuts create some jobs huh.

    Tough news. Good thoughts coming (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:25:11 PM EST
    your way, not that those will find you a job, unfortunately.

    Parent
    good luck, lilburro (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:49:47 PM EST
    Sending good thoughts and some prayers (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by samsguy18 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:31:58 PM EST
    Your way. Good Luck !

    Parent
    Thanks all. n/t (none / 0) (#106)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:49:27 PM EST
    Good luck (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:57:31 PM EST
    Hope you find something that you like better soon.

    Parent
    Wishing the best for you, lilburro, and (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:58:15 PM EST
    that it is not too long before you get through this cloud to the silver lining that you suspect is there.

    Parent
    Good luck to you. Good to have some notice (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:38:25 PM EST
    at least. Here's to better things ahead.

    Parent
    Thanks all (none / 0) (#199)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:55:30 PM EST
    I am fortunate enough to have this be (at this point in time, anyway) more of an opportunity than a crisis.  I appreciate all the good wishes.  Hopefully the employment scenario gets better in the coming months, but I won't hold my breath...gah.

    Parent
    George Mason University... (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:08:01 PM EST
    study states the obvious...NY State ranks dead last in liberty of the 50 states.

    Props to New Hampshire for being Number 1...Live free of die baby!

    And our Attorney General Schneidersh*t is out to do more damage...another of those lame-brain painkiller databases.  

    I love the joint, it will always be home...but it might be hightime to call Snake Bliskin and escape from NY.

    Greek Protests Continue (none / 0) (#1)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:57:48 AM EST
    National Strike planned for tomorrow.  And the U.S. media is staying away from this story like it's radioactive.  'Cause, you know, they wouldn't want the U.S. public to think this sort of thing actually works.

    Now now Robo... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:23:00 AM EST
    Be fair, the US media has Weiner protests and counter protests to cover.

    Not sure if that is a laugh out loud or sob out loud.

    Parent

    Ha! (none / 0) (#9)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:34:06 AM EST
    Question: (none / 0) (#3)
    by observed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:06:17 AM EST
    to what extent did Weiner send unsolicited pictures to women? I have not had any desire to read the details of the story, but all I know is there was one allegation; besides that, any pic sending or exchanging was consensual. Is that corrrect?
    Way for Obama to take a stand, btw. I think he (Obama) should resign, too!

    Compare and contrast: (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:18:33 AM EST
    In 2007, David Vitter, family values/sanctity of marriage senator (R. LA) caught in DC Madam and Canal Street diaper-caper. Big political scandal and wife, Wendy, threatens a Lorena Bobbitt if true, reasons enough for Vitter to initially lie.  Faced with facts and Larry Flynt, Vitter (in a dark blue suit) holds a presser with Wendy and God and admits truth and confesses his "sin".  The three of them are joined with their children and go off to rest and contemplate. Upon return to senate duties, family values/sanctity of marriage party gives Vitter a standing ovation. Neither RNC co-chairs (Duncan Huner and Mel Martinez) call for his resignation.  President Bush spoke about immigration policy.  Vitter was re-elected to another six-year term in 2010.

    Parent
    You forgot to mention that (none / 0) (#25)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:31:53 AM EST
    unlike after AW's lengthy presser, Vitter simply issued a generic, bland apology statement and left the stage.  The MSM continued to go after Weiner, but meekly allowed Vitter to go away quietly and return to the senate.  For about 3 yrs, until his re-elect, when they again failed to cover his story.  

    Ditto re Ensign, also allowed by our corp media to quietly go back to the senate and try to survive the charges against him.

    Unfortunately for our guy, he left a pictorial and sexting paper trail behind, and the media loves that kind of stuff.  Our pols never seem to get it -- if you're going to be stupid and reckless in your private life, don't leave a documentary record the media can use to endlessly ridicule you.  See, e.g., Bill's on camera denial of sexual relations with that woman, Gary Hart allowing himself to be photographed on the Monkey Business.

    Well, that's part of it.  The other is the MSM's double standard in treating Dem pols' scandals more harshly than Repubs, at least in the past 25 yrs.

    Parent

    Are you suggesting that (none / 0) (#35)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:06:37 AM EST
    the MSM pampered him more than Fifi LaRue?

    Parent
    As far as I know... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:11:33 AM EST
    the underwear shot Breitbart first snagged was the only one that was unsolicited or unwelcome...but who knows.

    Hopefully Weiner has some Bill Clinton in him and holds firm with his refusal to cower to mudslingers and gutter-dwellers.  

    Parent

    With the proviso that this information (none / 0) (#22)
    by observed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:24:04 AM EST
    is accurate, I am really disappointed in the reaction to Weiner's problem.
    I find this most similar to Clinton's Lewinsky scandal. In fact, the same words were used about Clinton: he was dangerous, a "predator", your underage daughter wouldn't be safe around him, etc.
    If anything, the predator label seemed much more appropriate for Clinton than Weiner.

    Then, as now, top dems called for Clinton to resign--and quite quickly, too.

    Parent

    This is a horse (none / 0) (#4)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:09:52 AM EST
    set to race in about 45 minutes in the UK's Royal Ascot named Frankel.  Apparently he is a pretty big deal.  If you are interested you can follow at the Guardian liveblog.  

    Frankel (none / 0) (#166)
    by Amiss on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:49:19 PM EST
    was the horse-trainer father of Bethanny Frankel, if I remember correctly of Bravo "Real Housewives" fame who died approx. a year ago.

    If it has anything to do with that............who knows.

    Parent

    Romney looks different to me, somehow. (none / 0) (#5)
    by observed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:12:37 AM EST
    Has he lost weight?

    I thought so, too, (none / 0) (#6)
    by robert72 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:22:09 AM EST
    in the couple of minutes I could stand to watch. Did he have a facelift? And his eyes looked odd.

    Parent
    I was wondering about plastic (none / 0) (#10)
    by observed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:38:56 AM EST
    surgery, but he doesn't look younger to me.
    Maybe he went for a manlier look.

    Parent
    Romney has lost some things, indeed (none / 0) (#159)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:07:10 PM EST
    ...looks like weight loss, old hairstyle loss (rumor is the gel), less flabby, and--in latest photographed outings--tie loss and evidence that he is trying for a less rigid stance, tone.

    Personally, of course, I'd like for him to extend those losses all the way around. At this point, tho, he does appear to be solidifying his position among Repubs. No surprise.

    Parent

    Boy, John King is annoying! (none / 0) (#11)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:45:42 AM EST
    I'd rather have lights than than King going "uh .. uh ... right" every time he thinks a candidate has gone too long.

    unwatchable IMHO (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:39:29 PM EST
    Hard to deny... (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:49:13 AM EST
    Palin draws a lot of support due to her milfdom...is stating the obvious sexist?

    Speaking of political correctness, caught a very interesting documentary of Sundance last night..."It's Hard Being Loved by Jerks", about the lawsuit against the French periodical "Charlie Hebdo" by some French Muslim advocacy groups for publishing the Danish Big Mo' cartoons.  I highly recommend, an excellent portrayal of the sensitivity vs. free speech debate.

    After the film I felt very grateful our free speech rights are more iron-clad than other western democracies...what a shame the people at Charlie Hebdo had to endure a lawsuit for expressing rights we take for granted. But at least they were victorious. Their well-reasoned defense of humor, irreverence, & mockery were downright poetic.  Beautiful stuff.

    Well let's see (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:32:36 AM EST
    Romney isn't a bad looking guy.  Even George Bush looked kind of cute in a flight suit.

    Hmmm, no "FILF" comments? about those guys?

    Wonder why that is...oh yeah, because crass demeaning terms like that are pretty much reserved for women.

    Parent

    Have you forgotten the swooning (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:54:36 AM EST
    over GWB in the flight suit?  Lots of talk about the president's "package" as I recall, and more than a little bit of it from male pundits - Chris Matthews maybe?

    And then there was Obama emerging from the Hawaiian surf, photos of which were splashed everywhere - more swooning.

    Because, as we know, this whole physical beauty thing is such a reliable indicator of leadership and governamce ability, right?

    Ugh.

    Parent

    Yes, maybe swooning (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:52:14 AM EST
    but I for one don't see how that can be seen as offensive. But "MILF"? It's even being discussed here, in earnest it seems, whether any particular woman is "worthy" of the labeling.

    Ugh!

    Parent

    Who is taking about worthyness? (none / 0) (#75)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:49:40 PM EST
    I thought we were facing reality...there is a milf-factor at play with Palin...anybody with eyes can see that...her sex appeal is part of her popularity....right or wrong.  

    I don't think it is at play with Bachmann...that being said, I've heard lamer theories...it is not totally outlandish, just lame.  

    It's fine to wail at sex appeal factoring into politics...in a perfect world there would be no factors outside good ideas and good leadership...but this is the world we live in.  Why can't we talk about it?

    Parent

    But why (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:55:25 PM EST
     - in heaven's name! - do you insist on keeping on using that term? "Moms I Want to F***"? Really? Don't you see how insulting, degrading and dehumanizing it is? It's not acceptable using it talking about Palin, it's not acceptable using it talking about any woman. Period. Whether you want to eff me, or any other woman, or not, grading, or rating, or dismissing us like that is just not acceptable! Women's worth measured by our effability "factor"? Seriously?

    You want to talk about sex appeal fine, let's talk about that, but seriously don't you see the distinction? Don't you see how the first is only degrading and insulting, while the other actually can be flattering. From reading your comments here I get the sense that the latter is more your preference, or ...?

    Parent

    Just read through the whole thread (none / 0) (#160)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:20:02 PM EST
    You can scratch the "From reading your comments here I get the sense that the latter is more your preference, or ...?" Already got my answer. :(

    Parent
    I didn't swoon (none / 0) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:10:37 AM EST
    But half the people in my world run around in pickle suits :)

    Parent
    heh (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:39:25 PM EST
    I never knew flight suits were sexy. Need to did out some old pictures to impress folks.

    ;-)

    Parent

    I guess it was the difference (none / 0) (#114)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:04:52 PM EST
    between seeing him in a business suit vs. something aviatorish.  The pickle suit is going away though.  I think everyone active duty in all branches now has to wear the new outfit that is two piece and is multi cam.  I always thought pickle suits were so unattractive.  But I can't really spot aviation easily now either, my husband can because I guess there are distinct differences in garments but they all look the same to me....multi camo.

    And the beret is now only for dress, everyone here is so relieved because wearing the thing I guess is miserable when it is really hot and humid.  The new caps are so much better made IMO than the old ones were and the sizing is dependable too. They have a place on the back for your new velcro name tag though and now your boss can spot you coming and going :)

    Parent

    Man am I outdated (none / 0) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:36:22 PM EST
    We called them flight suits. 1. Summer 2. Winter. Any color of tan you wanted. Jackets were leather with fur collars. Survival gear was nylon lined with down/feathers. Got molded flight helmets with sliding visor in '64. Before that they were round like a ball and useless when it came to protection from anything.

    But "pickle?"

    Parent

    You wore desert pickle (none / 0) (#156)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:02:48 PM EST
    They did away with summer and winter, and for the season change you rely on an assortment of different flame retardant long underwear.  Between the Army and Air Force I only ever saw the dark green suits...hence pickle suits.  Then the first couple of years in Iraq they all were issued tan flight suits that everyone calls the desert pickle.

    Now they wear something called the A2CU and the only way I can quickly and easily tell the difference between it and everyday uniform when I'm doing laundry is that the material feels very different.

    Parent

    It was better to serve when (none / 0) (#188)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:15:13 PM EST
    the men were steel and the ships wood.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Technically... (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:45:31 AM EST
    I think the term you're searching for is "dilf"...I bet G-Dub would take that over chimp!

    Gotta disagree with your assesments though...George looks like Alfred E. Newman in any suit.  Romney looks like an exhibit at Madame Tussauds.

    Parent

    Here's the problem (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:05:18 AM EST
    Bachmann's "MILF" factor is hardly a significant  reason she gets support.

    It is the "crazy ideas" factor.

    Your entire premise is blatantly sexist.

    I simply have no other way of describing what you are doing.

    Parent

    Bill Maher: Michele Bachmann is a MILF (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:28:42 PM EST
    Bill Maher appeared on Chris Matthews' Hardball on MSNBC to talk about Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann, and their supporters in the Republican Party. In the interview, when asked about how Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann drew the crowd in Minnesota, Bill Maher suspected many are "doughy white men" who look on them as "MILFs."


    Parent
    no surprise there (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:36:46 PM EST
    since Bill Maher is one of the most blatantly sexist people in the media - he probably tingles Tweety's leg

    Parent
    If Maher is so sexist, why do so many (none / 0) (#128)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:30:01 PM EST
    feminists seem to appear as guests on his show?  Janeane Garofalo, Jane Lynch -- both presumably of the liberal feminist persuasion -- both guests on the last show.  Feminists' feminist Erica Jong also a past frequent guest, iirc.

    Why do these liberal women -- and others I'd have to look up but probably quite a few in number -- why do they all agree to appear on his show, and then not even call him out on his alleged sexism if as some of you seem to suggest, it's so apparent or well-known?

    Why would a sexist have such strong liberal women on his show -- fairly consistently by cable standards -- if he were the knuckledragging sexist some here claim he is?  Doesn't make sense.  Not perfect on gender matters at times?  Probably.

    A tad too anti-Hillary in the 2008 cycle -- yes, he's guilty on that score.  Close to a felony in fact.  

    But overall, he's not someone I'd put at or remotely near the top of my list to bring in on sexism charges in front of the TL People's Court.  

    Parent

    Maybe there's nowhere else to go... (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:52:30 PM EST
    or at least one of the few where liberal, feninist women can be seen or heard and listened to by a fairly large audience.

    Honestly, some days it's just too depressing to have to keep fighting these battles; it's like too many people just don't want to evolve, don't want to have to give up the objectification of women.  Because that's really what M!LF does - it makes objects out of women and renders them worthy only of visually or otherwise gratifying men.

    We're supposed to think of it as a compliment, I guess, and be grateful some man who can't bear to let go of his d!ck long enough to use his brain thinks we're in Bo Derek "10" territory.

    Swell.  

    And I'm tired of the excuse that "everyone's" using the word so how bad could it be?  I can think of a lot of other labels that would never benefit from that excuse, so I'm hard-pressed to understand why M!LF is deemed so benign.  Well, unless it could possibly be that most of the people who are perpetuating M!LF as an acceptable label are men.  No, that just couldn't be, could it?

    Clearly, you just don't get it, don't want to get it, and have an endless number of reasons why this is the problem of women.

    Got it.


    Parent

    Odd isn't it that a supposedly (none / 0) (#138)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:29:16 PM EST
    blatantly sexist person like Maher has one of the few places on tv/cable where these liberal feminist women can appear and state their views -- and "sexist" Bill isn't even bringing them on to hold their feminist views up to ridicule.  Hard for some to account for this situation in their overly jaundiced view of Maher, but I'll check back later for actual substantive arguments from others backing the sexist claim against him.  As I said, he's not perfect and wasn't my favorite cable host during the 2008 race, so it's possible, beyond the 08 race, there might be more there there.  I just haven't seen the evidence yet beyond the name calling.

    Meanwhile, I think he (and the Balloon blogger) made valid points, Maher a little clearer as to the fact (like this poster) he was referring, clearly, to how the GOP male base views some of these candidates and why they get traction over there despite a paucity of other substantive attributes.  And the term the comedian-political satirist used is just a pithy way of conveying his views, something some people here insist on yanking out of context and taking too literally and in too PC a direction.

    As to the rest, again good luck trying to re-educate the voting public about not considering factors like appearance.  But believe me it'll be tougher convincing people on the other side to give up certain of their ingrained and neanderthal habits.  

    Parent

    Okay, here's the thing about Maher, (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by caseyOR on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:44:51 PM EST
    and speaking for myself only.

    First off, I don't see Maher as a liberal. He strikes me as more libertarian w/o the weird Rand Paul craziness.

    Secondly, and more germane to this discussion, if Maher does not like a woman politician rather than discuss her policy positions and criticize those positions, he jumps immediately to the ugly misogynist and sexist remarks. Hence, the milf remarks. I never heard him lead with a policy discussion when Palin or Hillary Clinton were the topics. Always the ugliness. Always.

    That's my criticism of Maher.

    Oh, and while GOP men may find Palin sexually appealing, I don't see that translating into votes. She has yet to poll very high among GOP hopefuls. So, the whole rather weak analysis that posits MILF as a factor in politics fails. IMO.

    Parent

    On Maher's political perspective, (none / 0) (#171)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:37:21 PM EST
    you seem out of date as I see him as a regular viewer, at least compared to where he was -- rather proudly and loudly in the more indy-than-thou/libertarian camp -- back before the 2000 election results.  Since the Nader debacle of that campaign, he's wised up a bit, seems to me, as to some of his rather easy Gush=Bore/D=R rhetoric.  Still some of that there, no doubt, but I sense he's become much more of a traditional lib Dem voter, with a few remnants of the occasional libertarianism from his youth.

    As to taking women pols seriously, leading with policy discussions as you say, you and I might agree only about Hillary.  That's one example.  But Palin?  Stop, please.  When or if the day finally comes when she shows she's a serious player on just one policy area, just one major issue, then you can plausibly argue that Bill is showing some sexism towards her.  Otherwise, we're talking about a seriously unserious politician in Palin, someone no better than the RW/Tea Party talking points she memorizes.

    Parent

    "Too PC a direction" (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:48:18 PM EST
    Alarms sounding.

    Bill Maher as the keeper of the feminist flame?

    Too effing funny.

    This thread has officially become a bad joke.

    Parent

    clearly you would not (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:05:25 PM EST
    But overall, he's not someone I'd put at or remotely near the top of my list to bring in on sexism charges in front of the TL People's Court.

    as for why all those other women would choose to go on his show, i'm sure they have their reasons & you should ask them, because we can't answer for them just because we're also guilty of existing while vaginated

    Parent

    You're wrong about Maher (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:46:20 PM EST
    imo.

    A sexist of long long standing.

    Why people who need media exposure go on his show should not be too hard to understand.

    Parent

    People who need media exposure (none / 0) (#174)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:41:55 PM EST
    is an easy charge that can be made against anyone appearing on these political or other commentary shows, but if Maher is so darn sexist as a few of you allege, then it still seems an awful lot of confirmed feminists seem to have allowed selfish career interests to get ahead of their principles, to the extent they appear and don't call him out.  Seems like we've got a lot of self-centered and unprincipled women feminists out there.

    Still waiting for more evidence against Maher other than Hillary ...

    Parent

    It's not exactly news (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:41:43 PM EST
    that women are also often sexist, and/or sexism-enablers.

    Parent
    oh jeez (none / 0) (#163)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:26:38 PM EST
    You recently stated that your gender is male.  In case anyone doubted that, here is a comment proving it.

    Parent
    Proving Maher is a sexist (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:48:48 PM EST
    is shooting fish in a barrel.

    Parent
    "milf" reference that I thought interesting. Absent him originally dubbing her a "milf" I don't think this thread would exist today.

    Parent
    sure it would (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:08:12 PM EST
    Balloon Juice just would have used whatever term was used before MILF came along

    Parent
    Bill Maher always gives analysis (none / 0) (#117)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:06:54 PM EST
    of women on the exploding "T" axis.  I wish some liberal woman would suppress his "T" just a little, let the rest of his brain catch up.

    Parent
    Good find by s.u.o. (none / 0) (#123)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:12:52 PM EST
    Looks like Maher is evaluating her candidacy and appeal as I did -- through a jaundiced view of the typical white male GOP voter.

    I find the overreaction by many here fairly astonishing.

    Also noteworthy is how it starkly contrasts with the Weiner discussion we've had here, when so many, staking out the very open-minded liberal mindset high ground, came to his defense and weren't outraged by his behavior -- it's private, it's commonly done these days, etc.

    Now, with the use, via a GOP male prism perspective, of one fairly common modern term not intended for literal use, for many it's get out the fainting couches time and call out the PC Police for punishment.  Go figure ...

    Parent

    fainting couches, eh? (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:22:09 PM EST
    Astonishing? (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:13:38 PM EST
    You were here during the primaries weren't ya brodie?

    Parent
    Um, not really -- (none / 0) (#139)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:30:36 PM EST
    didn't start reading and posting until about March 08, when the race was basically decided.  What did I miss?

    Parent
    I'll spare you... (none / 0) (#150)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:48:12 PM EST
    and give ya the short version.

    Can't ever say "pimp" in any context, and ya gotta burn all your Jay Z records...even "99 Problems" and it's beautiful endorsement of the 4th amendment.  

    Parent

    Sheesh. It's not like TL (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by dk on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:00:42 PM EST
    commenters are the only people in the world who have pointed out Maher's sexism.

    Melissa's had a few good posts on this.  This is the best one I could find in my quick search.

    Parent

    OK, at least dk offers up (none / 0) (#176)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:49:56 PM EST
    some evidence instead of just engaging in name calling.  Those first two terms he used, that goes across the line imo.  Calling him out on that one is fine with me.  The third term, I'd say well within acceptable bounds of political discourse and commentary.  I used the same re Danny Quayle back in the day.

    Thx for the link.

    Btw, isn't she the same feminist blogger who strongly objected to Anthony Weiner's behavior, calling it sexual harrassment?

    Iirc, a few days ago here on this board I was name called as a "Puritan" for sounding similar objections to AW.  Funny, today I get accused of spending the last decade hanging out on pron sites just because I've read a fair number of liberal blogs in that time and have watched shows like Chris Matthews and Bill Maher and seen/heard that term some find offensive used numerous times.  

    Parent

    it isn't about the language (none / 0) (#125)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:17:00 PM EST
    just as it isn't about the weiner

    it's about the sexism

    about the reason why the language & the weiner would even be put into play

    Parent

    Astonishing (none / 0) (#145)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:44:28 PM EST
    is your inability to recognize the blatant sexism.

    And your embrace of it.

    I admit coming from you I was surprised.

    Parent

    You forget that virtually ALL the (none / 0) (#38)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:13:21 AM EST
    GOP candidates are offering up "crazy ideas".  So what makes her Tea Party/Far RW-talking points idiocy different that a half dozen of the others in their candidate field?

    Hmm, let me take a few weeks to think that over ...

    Parent

    Uh... (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Addison on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:22:29 AM EST
    But she's not polling as well as Ron Paul, Herman Cain, Mitt Romney, or Rudy Giuliani (who isn't even running). Donald Trump briefly did much better than her with very similar rhetoric.

    You seem to imply with your argument that she is ahead or succeeding beyond expectations, and therefore some hidden political cosmological constant must be at work, waiting to be discovered. You seem to hypothesize that it's the "MILF factor". But there's isn't even a lead that needs explaining with a "MILF factor" theory (this may change soon since the media is saying she did well at the debate)!

    So assuming it exists at all, the "MILF factor" appears to be somewhat fleeting and inconsequential in comparison with its omnipresence in "progressive" analyses of the GOP field.

    I wonder why? Let me take a few weeks to think that over...

    Parent

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:35:57 AM EST
    So assuming it exists at all, the "MILF factor" appears to be somewhat fleeting and inconsequential in comparison with its omnipresence in "progressive" analyses of the GOP field.

    I wonder why? Let me take a few weeks to think that over...

    ya gotta laugh to keep from crying i guess.

    Parent

    You're relying on some now (none / 0) (#45)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:33:49 AM EST
    very out of date early polling on the field.

    Last night I suspect changed some numbers, probably significantly, both as to Bachmann and Pawlenty, one going up the other down.

    Now, given that her RW crazy ideas spiel isn't significantly different than 5 or 6 others on the stage, and given she has no major accomplishments to her credit, and that she's only a congresswoman repping a narrow constituency, what else might account for the attention she's getting and will be getting I predict?

    She's the eye-candy for a segment of the GOP base that falls easily for that sort of thing, and in sexist ways.  That and she's exceeding expectations -- starting out with a very low Palin-like bar -- with a stronger than expected debate performance.  Those are the two factors propelling her candidacy -- looks and charisma.  Not experience, not solid record of accomplishment in office, not expertise in any policy area, but style and style.  

    Parent

    Did she look sexier last night? (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:35:15 AM EST
    Is that your explanation for the poll changes you are anticipating?

    Stop while you are behind.

    Parent

    I like turtles. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Addison on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:55:34 AM EST
    You're relying on some very out of date early polling on the field. Last night I suspect changed some numbers, probably significantly, both as to Bachmann and Pawlenty, one going up the other down.

    First of all, here are the candidates, in order, from a poll taken in early June: Romney, Palin, Giuliani, Cain, Gingrich, Paul, Bachmann, Pawlenty, Huntsman, Santorum. Here's the relevant paragraph:

    Romney took 24 percent followed by former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, who has yet to announce a presidential bid, who took second with 20 percent. Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who has not formally entered the race, took third with 12 percent, followed by businessman Herman Cain and former U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich who tied for fourth with 10 percent each. U.S. Rep. Ron Paul of Texas placed sixth with 7 percent, followed by U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota with 4 percent. Another candidate from Minnesota -- former Gov. Tim Pawlenty -- was in eighth with 3 percent. Former Gov. Jon Huntsman of Utah, who has also not formally entered the race, and former U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania garnered 1 percent each.

    So, that is hardly "very" out of date. It's a week old.

    But I assume you mean that the debate changed everything, and instantly caused all polls to become out of date? Well, perhaps. But if being a "MILF" was the primary reason for Bachmann's success, she would have already succeeded before the CNN debate last night. She's presumably had the "MILF factor" for a long time, and yet she still polled poorly. For months she polled poorly -- and others with similar rhetoric rocketed to the top of the polls -- in spite of the alleged "MILF factor". How do you explain that? Is CNN's John King some sort of fairy godmother for "MILFs" that unleashes their latent power to seduce voters, or...

    Last night I suspect changed some numbers, probably significantly, both as to Bachmann and Pawlenty, one going up the other down.

    Pawlenty is the candidate of the beltway media and a few social conservative activists who don't like Romney. He does not poll well, and never has. He's the GOP's Evan Bayh. He often polls last among the candidates who were on that stage last night! His numbers can't go down significantly because they were never up. His supporters in polls can't go anywhere because he doesn't have any. To focus on him shows me that maybe your main concern is with what Newsweek is saying and not with anything consequential -- which would certainly explain the ongoing defense of the "MILF factor" theory.

    Parent

    You seem to have a very skewed (none / 0) (#62)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:28:16 PM EST
    approach to analyzing presidential campaigns.  Early polling is almost meaningless, and often has more to do with name recognition than anything else -- no need to wrap yourself so tightly around any one early poll and draw any major conclusions from it.  This statement

    So, that is hardly "very" out of date. It's a week old.

    is just one example.  Yes, polling done early is not only meaningless, but polling done before the first major debate is doubly so.  That's in addition to the fact that a week can be a lifetime in politics.  Not to say MB is going to jump to the top of the polls, but it's important to remember that for many semi-casual political observers on their side, this first debate was the first chance they've had to observe MB, outside perhaps of the occasional appearance on cable.  

    And until last night, she'd largely been drowned out by all the Palin coverage -- will she get in, won't she.  But also last night was the first time she announced her candidacy (exploratory committee step).  I'd expect her to take some of the eye-candy support from Palin and at least double her poll #s.

    As for Pawlenty, you also seem unaware that he's been touted not just by some in the MSM but by many liberal bloggers as one of the few "serious" candidates with a shot at the nom -- a sort of poor-man's Romney, a remainderman who was expected to hang around long enough to pick up the anti-Mormon anti-Romneycare GOP primary vote when those 2 factors were supposed to kick in to Romney's detriment (and they still might).

    But he's going to be hurt by the anticipated entry of Huntsman, another who'll be touted as "serious" in a seriously unserious field, as well as Gov Goodhair of TX who also is expected to get in, a candidate who sort of encompasses both the crazy RW and the serious contenders (basically only to the extent he's a 2-term gov of one of our largest states, automatically putting him at least partly in the serious category).  Nothing wrong with noting Pawlenty should expect a dip in both support and media attention after this first debate and with the field about to get more crowded.  Given his rather mild personality, he'll have difficulty regaining whatever positive mo he'd had prior to last night.


    Parent

    Is this real life? (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Addison on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:46:06 PM EST
    no need to wrap yourself so tightly around any one early poll and draw any major conclusions from it.

    Early polls are indicative of support at the time, and all the polls have shown Pawlenty down and Bachmann not taking advantage of your mythical, truthy "MILF factor." We're talking about now, polling from now matters.

    Yes, polling done early is not only meaningless, but polling done before the first major debate is doubly so.

    I wasn't citing that poll (or any polls) to indicate who I thought would win, I was citing it to show you that before the debate Bachmann was polling poorly, despite a theorized "MILF factor".

    Not to say MB is going to jump to the top of the polls, but it's important to remember that for many semi-casual political observers on their side, this first debate was the first chance they've had to observe MB, outside perhaps of the occasional

    Occasional? Haha! Well, I venture to guess that more people had seen Bachmann multiple times before, over the past 3-4 years, than saw her for the first time last night. Last night was not her debut by a long, long, long shot. Anyone "semi-casual" enough to tune into last night's GOP debate on CNN is certainly tuned in enough to have seen Bachmann on cable news before.

    And until last night, she'd largely been drowned out by all the Palin coverage -- will she get in, won't she.  But also last night was the first time she announced her candidacy (exploratory committee step).

    She was at the debate, for most people that meant she was running. Again, your seem to base your opinions on what Newsweek thinks is important. Normal people don't care about declaring that you're going to declare -- if you're in stories about the nomination you're running.

    I'd expect her to take some of the eye-candy support from Palin and at least double her poll #s.

    If the "eye candy support" actually existed there's no credible reason why it would be zero sum. It would be an addition onto both candidates numbers versus other candidates, and BOTH would be doing well. There's no reason they both can't have the theorized "MILF factor" and get boosted support for it.

    As for Pawlenty, you also seem unaware that he's been touted not just by some in the MSM but by many liberal bloggers as one of the few "serious" candidates with a shot at the nom

    Many liberal bloggers also take their cues from Newsweek. I don't care what they think.

    But he's going to be hurt by the anticipated entry of Huntsman, another who'll be touted as "serious" in a seriously unserious field, as well as Gov Goodhair of TX who also is expected to get in

    You claim that Pawlenty's a serious candidate (in spite of his terrible poll numbers) but then in the next paragraph note that if some other candidates get in -- one a former Obama ambassador and the other a thetorical secessionist -- that may be the end of him. So, he's not really that serious a threat outside the pages of Newsweek then, is he?

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#158)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:06:35 PM EST
    for taking that on.  

    Parent
    Ah, so (none / 0) (#181)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:06:03 PM EST
    "many liberal bloggers take their cues from Newsweek" -- which ones may I ask, the ones whose views you apparently read but, ahem, "don't care what they think"?

    As for me on Pawlenty, it was, first, a matter of not reading Newsweek (sorry, a non-reader since at least the early 90s) but seeing his name mentioned time and again as one of the serious candidates to watch for, second listening to non-Newsweek cable host Lawrence O'Donnell argue he is actually the favorite to win the nom (said pre-1st debate), and third, winnowing down the list of official GOP candidates and eliminating all the clearly unserious, frivolous ones as well Ron Paul, Newt Gingrich, Ricky Santorum and other Will Never Get the Nom in a Million Years types.  

    That is, a process of elimination leaves T-Paw plus a couple or 3 others, only (before last night).  No argument here that his support was massive or widespread, but he was getting good word of mouth, repeatedly, and in a variety of public places.  Good pub doesn't mean votes -- they actually don't start voting for another 6 mos or so -- but it can translate into the type of positive mo that can bring in needed money and add to voters paying attention.  Alas, T-P shot himself in the foot last night, and so is now in trouble, especially with Huntsman and Perry about to enter.  He could be finished after one debate in fact.

    Finished on this exchange except to note that it occurs to me you might be projecting onto me some of your own personal interest in what they're saying in the pages of Newsweek ...

       

    Parent

    The cake is a lie. (none / 0) (#190)
    by Addison on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:28:33 PM EST
    Newsweek (which I, like everyone else, don't subscribe to or read) was obviously shorthand for inane and self-absorbed media punditry. It's like using Kleenex for tissues, or Xerox for photocopiers, or Twinkies for unhealthy food. It's an emblematic brand symbolizing the industry. I assume you realized that and pretended not to, but it doesn't matter. If you don't like that shorthand, or think that I have to consistently read the junk I'm using as a symbol of junk, or whatever, that's your choice. Not very important.

    Maybe Pawlenty retools his stalled nothing of a campaign, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he gets the nomination or comes close, maybe he doesn't. Maybe Palin's voters are all going to jump over to his ship, who knows. That was very much a side issue. Now, I certainly don't think he's much of a candidate in spite of months and months of media support and narrative-building attempts. And your idea that one bad debate performance could torpedo him would support the idea that he was a media-created paper tiger to begin with. But that is just my opinion based on the fact that no one seems to have much desire to ever actually vote for him. I don't think he's earned his media-bestowed ranking, I don't think he's as strong in Iowa as everyone is claiming, and arguments from authority or yet more fluffing from pundits are not enough to convince me. Maybe someday.

    Anyway, since defenses of the mythological, magically disappearing and appearing, inexplicably zero-sum "MILF factor" have been dropped from your responses, I'll consider this exchange done as well.

    Have a good night.

    Parent

    Well Bachmann (none / 0) (#49)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:43:37 AM EST
    has more in terms of accomplishments than Hermann Cain.  She's not a Governor but she has won three congressional elections and has been a major Tea Party TV presence.

    In terms of the MILF issue, I don't pay attention to the GOP candidates like some others do (TPM or Balloon Juice for instance) but to my knowledge Bachmann hasn't really been categorized as a MILF the way Palin has been anyway.  I think Bachmann has the conservative Christian thing going on much more than Palin ever did, 23 foster kids, etc etc.  I never got the impression she was ever covered as a MILF by the media.  Maybe I'm wrong.  

    So aside from the MILF characterization being sexist I don't think it's even accurate in terms of how she's been presented/covered.

    Parent

    I don't think it is a sexist anaylsis... (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:00:20 PM EST
    it's just a sh*tty analysis.  

    Parent
    That's even more (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:25:34 AM EST
    BS.

    I'll leave you to this line of thought.

    I'm pretty disgusted by it myself.

    Parent

    I'm with ya on Bachmann... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:15:45 AM EST
    I'm not seeing any milf there....in her case the batsh*t brings the support.

    Palin otoh...she's every dirty old right-wing white man's political wet dream, batsh*t with cleavage and thigh-high black leather boots.


    Parent

    Disappointing. (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    It is... (none / 0) (#89)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:15:31 PM EST
    disappointing that the superficial plays such a role in elections and politics, but it is reality my friend.

    Parent
    Another thought... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:20:37 PM EST
    isn't he really insulting conservative male voters who vote with their junk?

    Parent
    kdog (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:28:28 PM EST
    i don't think most conservative male voters vote with their junk . . . i don't think most male voters of any stripe vote with their junk . . . if it were that easy, don't you think we wimminfolk would have been running the country for the last 200 years or so?

    Parent
    Ya gotta get on the ballot first:) (none / 0) (#104)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:47:33 PM EST
    call me crazy and/or sexist, but a significant part of the Palin phenomenon is the feeling she gives right-wing horndogs in the pants. In fact, I consider this fairly obvious.

    Parent
    then let's test your hypothesis (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:54:49 PM EST
    let's see if she or Bachmann gets the nomination

    Parent
    To be clear... (none / 0) (#118)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:07:45 PM EST
    I don't agree with the writer or Maher that sex appeal is behind Bachmann's popularity...but I think its definitely playing a role in Palin's popularity.  That being said, I don't think such a theory is inherently sexist, I just disagree.

    And if Palin gets in the race, it wouldn't surprise me that something so superficial tips the scales in her favor.  I mean they say a big reason Nixon lost to Kennedy was JFK was handsome on tv, while Nixon was a sweaty ugly man.  

    Americans are not too bright when it comes to electing leaders..."I'd like to have a beer with x" or "I wouldn't throw x outta bed". The stupid reality we live in.

    Parent

    Didn't know girlfriends had to meet (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:37:01 PM EST
    political litmus tests...

    ;-)

    Parent

    cut to the chase Teresa (none / 0) (#71)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:41:46 PM EST
    male presidential candidates henceforth to be evaluated first & foremost on size of package

    Weiner, "flashing" his presidential amibtions, was just a bit ahead of his time - poor Cassandra tweeting in the wilderness . . .

    Parent

    Tell it to Kuch... (none / 0) (#80)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:55:55 PM EST
    I'm told he can never be president because he is not tall enough.

    We pick and choose over the stupidest of sh*t, including sex appeal.

    Parent

    First tell Napoleon about the height thing (none / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:40:38 PM EST
    Just a reminder: (none / 0) (#202)
    by sj on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 01:41:44 AM EST
    Napoleon was never on TV.

    Parent
    That is funny (none / 0) (#81)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:57:07 PM EST
    No question there seems to be (none / 0) (#27)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:37:35 AM EST
    a significant portion of the GOP base, younger and middle-aged white males, who are easily swayed by the milf factor.  I don't see why it's off limits to mention this.  She's basically a shallow RW talking points-spouting Tea Bagger with few accomplishments repping her narrow GOP district, but who is attractive and comes off as articulate and confident, even as her barely thought out proposals would be disastrous for this country.

    She's Palin + 10 IQ pts and without the off-putting screechy voice.

    Parent

    Sad comments (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:03:15 AM EST
    You see nothing wrong with defining a candidate by their "MILF" factor?

    WTF?

    Parent

    I considered the comment (none / 0) (#36)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:10:07 AM EST
    by the blogger wrt the portion of the GOP base for whom milf status can be a major factor.  Not familiar with that blogger, but I assume s/he might have been referencing indirectly the sexist nature of the GOP white male base.  

    For me, I don't state that as a positive or ideal way to judge candidates, but just sayin' that's how many on their side will view her.

    Parent

    Um (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:23:58 AM EST
    That's just BS.


    Parent
    Really? (5.00 / 4) (#39)
    by Madeline on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:14:50 AM EST
    Seriously..?

    That's all I can say or type. Continued attention to your post and the critical analysis I would like to offer would get me suspended.

    Parent

    Please continue. You're on the right (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:30:52 PM EST
    track.  

    Parent
    screechy voice? (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:35:36 PM EST
    My initial reaction to why (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:59:24 PM EST
    you - and kdog - don't  think it's off limits to describe Bachmann in p*rn site language is that you're male, but with BTD also being male, and being as apparently repelled by it as a lot of women here, I guess it isn't fair to ascribe your thought processes to your gender.  Although, I don't see any women describing her that way, so maybe that it even occurred to you two to frame her that way is a matter of gender.

    Appearance is a factor - more than it should be - in countless areas of our lives, but...there are so many other ways to say that someone's appearance might be a factor without being so - sorry - crass about it.  And, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of reasons why Bachmann would have support in GOP quarters that have nothing to do with her looks or - as "M!LF" infers - how she would perform in the bedroom, that it seems even less necessary.

    Hey, I think Bachmann represents some of the worst of the conservative, Tea Party sector, and that alone is off-putting to me; if it's enough to put me off, it's equally enough to resonate with someone else.

    I'm no prude, but it seems to me that the only way we begin to eliminate the appearance factor in areas like politics, where it just doesn't and shouldn't matter, is to stop pandering to it, which "M!LF" does, in no uncertain terms.


    Parent

    Again (none / 0) (#101)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:42:59 PM EST
    I'm basically saying the colorful description by the quoted blogger elsewhere seemed, imo, to be one analyzing her appeal as seen from the GOP (white, male) base perspective -- and not as some crude descriptive I would immediately reach for and embrace looking at the situation from my Dem perspective.  But then I don't have the high regard for people in their base, particularly the men, that some here seem to have.  I think they do deal in judging people, especially women, by crude, often sexist ways -- and that that was what the Balloon blogger was getting at, not much more than that.

    As for your last remark in para 2, I think you take the term "milf" rather too literally, at least in terms of my reference to it.  I take it as a crude but increasingly common, widely used modern term used by people on both sides in different contexts (e.g., commonly used by liberal Bill Maher), but in this one standing not for literal bedroom performance but for eye-candy sex appeal.

    As for your last para, good luck with that lofty but futile effort.  As long as people are voting for other people, appearance will count.  Some will give it more importance than they should, but being people, they're not going to all stop being human and stop being attracted to attractive people.  Other voters count disproportionately in favor of things like debate performance as if the major duty of a president is to debate, or a candidate's stance on their pet issue, or whether they've personally met the candidate or seen him/her up close, or whether s/he is a fan of their favorite sports team, or whether s/he prefers Leno or Conan (the Jon King Factor), or whether s/he became a successful billionaire business person as if a president is just like a CEO, etc.  How about a crusade against those types of voters, too?

    I'm afraid we have to accept voters for who they are.  And studies from even infant children suggest that humans react more positively to attractive people.  I suspect Bachmann is aware of this human tendency, and is taking advantage of her "favorable" personal situation to advance politically, as it's her right to do.  For me, she is just about attractive style with very little substance.  

    Parent

    correction (none / 0) (#132)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:04:31 PM EST
    ".....as "M!LF" implies..."

    Parent
    Pron language to you maybe... (none / 0) (#136)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:19:43 PM EST
    in my circles it is common slang for an attractive older woman/mother.

    Just as f*ck is common slang for me, and obscene in other circles.

    Would you guys think it sexist if "good looks" was subbed for "milf"?

    Parent

    i love the sight of a burning cross (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:25:01 PM EST
    don't you like fire?

    why do you hate trees?

    Parent

    You've been to... (none / 0) (#148)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:46:04 PM EST
    Burning Man? or to a Klan rally?  I need context.

    Parent
    connect the dots (5.00 / 4) (#191)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:34:39 PM EST
    a burning cross is commonly recognized as a symbol of white racism

    at the same time, i enjoy an inviolate 1st amendment right to burn a cross on my own front lawn whenever i choose

    so let's say i'm a white person & have managed somehow to live my life without ever registering the ugly symbolic significance of a burning cross

    the conscious message of my action (insofar as i am capable of recognizing that my manipulation of cultural symbols does send a message) is "i like the sight of a burning cross"

    does my understanding of my message define the context in which others are required to receive it?

    & if -- having been told by my African American neighbors across the street how my action makes them feel, & having been clued in by some of my other neighbors about what the symbol of a burning cross countenances in our country's culture & history -- i choose to continue burning crosses on my front lawn (or at Burning Man, for that matter), what does that say about me?

    words = cultural symbols, not just private language

    say what you want, but know whose company your choices put you in

    Parent

    for several decades now, generally, it seems, among the HS aged crowd.

    I would imagine the appreciation of the attractiveness of friends' mothers or spouses has been around for much longer...

    Parent

    has it occurred to you (5.00 / 5) (#102)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:44:52 PM EST
    that it might not be "a significant portion of the GOP base, younger and middle-aged white males" who are driving the MILF idea about women candidates like Sarah Palin & Michelle Bachmann?

    that instead it's younger & middle-aged white males in the media, enjoying a sexist & especially classist circle jerk?

    Parent

    Right. (5.00 / 5) (#120)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:08:31 PM EST
    There's no evidence at all for this driving male GOP voters - at least none has been presented and there is apparently none to be found.

    So, just who is it that is actually thinking in these terms? Not the male GOP voters apparently (or not only them), but from the commenters here expressing it - purportedly liberal males.

    At least, they should just own it. They are the ones perpetuating it.

    Parent

    precisely (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:12:46 PM EST
    the phenomenon is called "projection"

    Parent
    Just going by what (none / 0) (#142)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:39:38 PM EST
    GOPers like long-time Repub operative/pundit Rich Lowry say they personally react, at an emotional and apparently hormonal level, to people like Palin.

    Extrapolating from that 2008 outburst to candidates like the similarly situated Bachmann.  I don't claim any political-scientist expertise about Republicans and their precise thinking or mindset -- just what I've observed of them over the past 35-40 yrs.

    Btw, I also think one finds many more racists among GOP voters as compared to Dems.

    So, gosh! that makes me quite the hyperbolic liberal cynic about the typical GOP voter on at least two counts.

    Go ahead and write me up on both charges if it makes you feel better.

    Parent

    Don't faint (none / 0) (#147)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:45:53 PM EST
    But I agree.

    Parent
    It does not affect the voters (none / 0) (#175)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:48:36 PM EST
    But it does affect the press. It is the only thing that accounts for Palin being on my TV screen so much.

    Parent
    Circle jerk? (none / 0) (#157)
    by Lacey on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:03:19 PM EST
    What's with the sexist comment?

    Parent
    snark? (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:55:19 PM EST
    if not, then you're saying you've read through this entire thread & are asking me about a "sexist" comment?

    if so, i have a question for you: are you f^cking kidding me?

    Parent

    Me either... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:55:28 AM EST
    I don't see why it's off limits to mention this.

    "The Emperor Wears No Clothes" comes to mind...they day ya can't state the obvious, out of fear of offending power or the pc police, is the day we are in big trouble.

    Parent

    Oh, Kdog, you stepped in it ... (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:37:31 PM EST
    This is a classic example of what terms like "pc police" really mean.  It's a PC way of defending sexist, racist and homophobic language or actions.

    And most smart people caught onto that a long time ago.

    Parent

    Then I'm a big dummy.... (none / 0) (#144)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:40:33 PM EST
    cuz I don't understand whats so wrong about saying sex appeal plays a role in politics, sh*t it plays a role in everything involving sexual creatures, and using common slang such as "milf" to do it.

    If people can't be bothered with context and what a person is trying to say because they don't like the vernacular used, frankly thats their problem...I'm gonna speak my language.

    Parent

    Except it's not just "your" language, (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by dk on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:55:01 PM EST
    it's the culture's language.  We live in a culture that is still patriachal, and sexist, and one of many ways in which cultural traditions such as sexism, etc. continues and thrives is the through the use of language.

    No one's talking about arresting you for using it.  But in using the lanuage you're contributing to the cultural tradition.  The "oh, but I dont' mean it THAT way" justification just doesn't cut it, IMO.  Once the words leave ones mouth they are more than just the thoughts in ones head.

    Parent

    Caution: googling "MLIF" (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:23:12 PM EST
    results in NSFW photos (although I'm at home!).  What does this acronym mean?  

    Parent
    its MILF (none / 0) (#58)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:24:47 PM EST
    Mom I'd Like to F*ck

    Parent
    Do I want this to be the new thing I (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:28:28 PM EST
    learned today?  

    Parent
    It was popularized by ... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:48:34 PM EST
    the movie AMERICAN PIE (1999).

    Parent
    That explains everything! The man (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:07:05 PM EST
    I was seeing way too many Bruce Willis movies with really wanted me to see "American Pie."  So glad I didn't.  

    Parent
    I finally did google (5.00 / 4) (#85)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:04:13 PM EST
    (and an acronym or any term with, as well, the word "define" solve that problem of bringing up porn sites) and found out what "milf" means.

    I was very confused for much of this thread.  Based on the familiar acronym "mil," I read this acronym to mean "mother-in-law factor."

    But I'm not going back to reread the thread.  Blecch.

    Parent

    Don't know where you've been (none / 0) (#107)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:54:41 PM EST
    the last 10 yrs or so, but that term has been fairly widely used in the liberal blogosphere (the only type I read; I assume the RW blogs use it too), on some cable political shows occasionally (yes, even Chris Matthews), and especially I recall Bill Maher tossing it out -- for his show a rather mild term -- numerous times in recent years.

    This is not the only term appropriated from the pron online industry.  Terms like "wanquer" [note: change the qu to a k] also have become rather common, online and on the cables; this I think is a British term originally, and was virtually unheard of over here until at least online pron came along.

    There might be others, but bottom line is both these terms have been out there in the culture for a while now, and I'm a little surprised some here have missed seeing/hearing them, even with some frequency.  

    Culture and language change, and ours have gotten a little more -- what -- cruder or open-minded, depending on your pov.

    Reminds me of our discussion from a few days ago when some pro-Weiner posters called his detractors "Puritans" for being squeamish or squicked out about what he'd done.  Shall we go down that road again?

    Parent

    Don't know why you've been (3.50 / 2) (#124)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:16:51 PM EST
    spending an entire decade patronizing the porn industry and other movies like American Pie, television hosts like Bill Maher, and blogs that are right-wing and misogynistic.

    I spend my time more wisely, I think.

    Your mileage not only may but apparently does vary.

    Parent

    Don't know why you feel it's (none / 0) (#131)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:59:32 PM EST
    necessary to go ad hom and make up a false list of things you imagine I've spent massive amounts of time with.  Isn't it still frowned upon at TL to attack posters on a personal basis as opposed to arguing the substance?  

    As for certain things, if you're online long enough, they're hard to avoid noticing.  Re the RW and misogynistic blogs, does occasionally looking at The Volokh Conspiracy legal blog count against me in your fanciful list of particulars?  Because that's about the only time I might go rightward for a look at what that side is thinking on legal matters; dunno Volokh or his blog well enough to know if he is a misogynist or not. American Pie -- saw portions on cable, never in its entirety.  And wasn't aware (see another poster's post below) it is apparently the first use of the term "m..lf"

    Watching Bill Maher -- guilty as charged.

    Parent

    i watch Bill Maher too (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:07:21 PM EST
    because i usually enjoy New Rules

    but that doesn't mean i don't think he's sexist as hell much of the time

    he is

    it's just that i'm a feminist with a sense of humor

    Parent

    I think I'm with you (none / 0) (#178)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:54:43 PM EST
    I'm late to this thread.

    I do find Bill Maher sexist at times. He goes for the easy lazy jokes sometimes, and they are often sexist. But I like his other jokes so I watch. Just this week he said he is getting more liberal thgese days compared to where he used to be. Maybe he will have his consciousness raised about his sexist tendencies. Maybe not. I still think he is funny.

    As for the MI!F stuff...I'm kinda with kdog on that. I know if I think about it real hard I would find it insulting, but to me it is such a part of the language now I just see it as shorthand for attractive slightly older female. I would never use it in conversation of course, not being a teenage boy.

    Parent

    You did sort of blast her for not (5.00 / 3) (#168)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:56:49 PM EST
    knowing what a milf was.  I think there is something a bit wonderful about someone who doesn't know what it means yet.  It isn't an important acronym, it is sort of repulsive.

    Parent
    Review above for who went "ad hom" (none / 0) (#143)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:39:47 PM EST
    as I began by poking fun at myself and my confusion.

    And then, what 'tude was taken in the reply?

    Parent

    Just to clarify, (none / 0) (#170)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:36:17 PM EST
    is it "attack[ing] posters on a personal basis" to notice how much of your time is spent commenting on prurient matters?

    A waste of a good mind, imo.  All that knowledge of history and this is what you talk about.

    Parent

    Me spending time on (none / 0) (#183)
    by brodie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:25:48 PM EST
    prurient matters?  Was I the one who quoted the Balloon Juice blogger using this term re Bachmann, putting it at the top of the page as a starting point for discussion?  And I'm the one off base for then discussing it?  And wasn't I the poster (w/kdog) who wasn't put off by the language and didn't find it offensive?

    Your judgmental attitude and attempt at thread nannying are noted.

    Instead of criticizing other posters for what they post, why not instead start a subthread of your own -- you know, something you're interested in that you know something about, that can get us all off the nasty "prurient" stuff that has been posted here lately over several days.  Something a little more lofty and uplifting.  Be my guest.  Stake out a clear position about something substantive that we'd perhaps be interested in tossing around, and defend your position.  Look forward to seeing it soon ...

    Parent

    Don't need to (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:38:08 PM EST
    lots of people here who have interesting stuff to talk about.  I'm here mostly to learn, not to pontificate.  Not that I'll shy away from expressing an opinion, but it isn't a point of pride to me to create a lot of verbal thrashing.  

    Your thread jacking in repeated defense of Maher, as your thread jacking in related to the private lives of pols through the 20th century are about all the prurient and defense of prurient I can take.

    Oh sorry.  I mean those "sub-threads".  

    Parent

    kdog: Can't resist adding to this comment @ (none / 0) (#161)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:21:26 PM EST
    free speech, etc. Please take in the spirit of :) and know that I am not one of those phony, showy flag-wavers. So...in light of some comments in other threads that people may have made suggesting that the U.S. might be at the bottom of the free-speech/1st Amendment rockpile--do you know of countries that we might emulate in the way of First Amendment-type rights?

    Feel free to ignore this comment...but, if you choose to accept the challenge & respond: No fair to go with Denmark, since there is an apparent restriction on birth-names (which must be registered & comport with previously approved Danish names.) Also: You need not limit a response to western countries...tho, OTOH, the examples of a number of mideastern countries as well as some far eastern countries might not be too appealing in speech or other ways to American women.  

    Parent

    I believe... (none / 0) (#195)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:40:17 PM EST
    for legal protections of speech, the US is among the best if not the best in the world, better than France, Germany, the UK.  Censorship wise it's a mixed bag...gets sketchy at the local level and in corporate boardrooms. The butchery of Huck Finn.  FCC is kinda whack, and we self-censor more than may I care for...but I can't think of a country I'd trade places with in regards to free speech.  

       

    Parent

    kdog: Bless you, kind sir...and thanks (none / 0) (#196)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:50:46 PM EST
    for your thoughtful response. BTW: The Huck Finn thing must be in the air & more, as husbamd & I were talking about the same subject yesterday (and, I think, coming to the same conclusion that you allude to.) I agree that we go overboard on censoring ouselves in the name of all sorts of good-sounding things. IMO and in the long run, far better to talk about the things openly that scare/hurt/offend us, then they can't be feared.

    Parent
    Thank you... (none / 0) (#198)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:10:51 PM EST
    and well said.

    If I may risk spoiling a pleasant exchange:), this is not to compare one cyber pundit amongst many to Mark Twain by any means...but sexism is a serious thing.  Sexist laws on the books, sexism in the workplace, chauvinistic men who believe a woman can't be president or a firefighter or a soldier.  I don't think ya throw that around because ya don't like the slang attempt to be clever making a point, whatever you may think of the point.

    Parent

    Gee (none / 0) (#13)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:07:36 AM EST
    That Romney sure looks presidential.

    At first, I thought Romney (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:28:45 AM EST
    brought his dog with him, but on closer look that air-blown creature was Santorum.

    Parent
    Naw, he left his dog (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:09:53 PM EST
    on the car before he went in . . . .

    Parent
    man-on-dog in 3 . . . 2 . . . (none / 0) (#73)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:48:27 PM EST
    The "looks Presidential" aspect (none / 0) (#162)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:26:18 PM EST
    could be a factor in the general election. At least...if turning the clock back...Romney always had the look of a successful businessman. My husband says: Its the jaw. Ah well, that jaw has been around long enough to have gathered lots of baggage and punches from the past.  Anyway, it will never impress a uniquely strong interest group: USA doglovers!

    Parent
    I didn't (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:11:18 AM EST


    Tracy... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:19:38 AM EST
    What did you think of Bill Maher's show this week?

    His closing monologue had me in stitches.

    Parent

    It was a really really good show (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:27:37 AM EST
    And the Dems are very torn about how to feel, what to do about, what to hope for, what to shoot for concerning Weiner.  They seemed a smaller depiction of the larger reality.  A lot of agony out there over the possibility of losing his voice in the debate too.

    Parent
    Me too. I thought it was a great show. (none / 0) (#179)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:58:56 PM EST
    The Jane Lynch dramatic reading of the Weiner texts was as good as I thought it would be.

    I guess I see Maher insulting men as much as he does women. I know I have thought he was sexist at times though. I wish that were not true, but I still watch.

    Parent

    i loved the jane lynch reading (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:18:30 PM EST
    she is fabulous

    if you saw Julie and Julia, then you saw her actually steal scenes from Meryl Streep - every one they were in together - she is fantastic

    otoh, i think Janeane Garofalo is an idiot - i thought so when she was on Air America & i think so now - the woman is a motormouth & apparently has no ability to think critically or make a rational argument, much less give anyone else a chance to speak

    YMMV

    Parent

    Voting appearance, looks (none / 0) (#33)
    by Madeline on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:03:46 AM EST
    it would be Romney.  He's best looking candidate, both parties included.

    Obama's shovel ready humour in North Carolina (none / 0) (#41)
    by samsguy18 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:20:34 AM EST
    Was a travesty ! I'm sure the unemployed were not amused . Those laughing along with the Brillant One should be ashamed of themselves.

    Didn't see it (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:07:30 PM EST
    but as humour clearly isn't one of his natural virtues, I would advise him not to try so hard making jokes. And at least, not reading them from a teleprompter. ;)

    Parent
    And then there's this (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:24:54 PM EST
    Remarks by Obama at a DNC event in Miami:
    What do you guys think of our new DNC chair?  (Applause.)  Debbie Wasserman Schultz.  We are so thrilled to have her.  You want Debbie on your side. (Applause.)  She's a mom, she's got that cute smile and all that, but she is tough.  Don't mess with Debbie.
    Sigh ... just ... sigh!

    Parent
    Double sigh, nemi: but consider... (none / 0) (#165)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:42:53 PM EST
    that Florida is not the most liberal state in the nation. In addition to the strong Evangelical presence (esp in the Panhandle), there may be a bit of backlash toward what some stereotype as the Jewish female.

     Whatever Wasserman-Schultz' background, she looks and sounds and acts tough. (I was fortunate enough to meet & talk a bit with her last autumn at a Denver-do...after which I came home raving to family & friends about this-is-the-type-of-woman-I-like-to-see-in-office-etc.) I think that DWS is great and does not seem to back down from a fight so far. Now...unfortunately (as I & some other good women friends had to learn the hard way at one time...the opposition relishes tackling a powerful woman like that as a b**. Think Nancy Pelosi (& even Hillary Clinton before the guts & emotion of NH in 2008.)

    So, here, the references to motherhood & other softer images counter the still-potent characterization of a powerful woman as too harsh. Playing all one's advantages in the throes of a campaign is essential...and that includes the President's  warm intro. Even if he played the game a little. Trust me, she knows when to accept graciously; and, she will stand up when it is important.

    Parent

    What does Florida demographics (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:56:16 PM EST
    have to do with Obama's patronizing, paternalistic statement?  Are you saying he was pandering to their baser instincts?

    Of course, by the time you got yourself into the pretzel position to act as apologist... who knows what your point was.

    Of course she'll "accept graciously".  What's her other option?  Seethe visibly?  

    Parent

    Well heck . . . . (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:05:48 PM EST
    at least he didn't call her "Sweetie".

    Parent
    Wasserman-Schultz is going to be a key (none / 0) (#177)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:54:36 PM EST
    player not just nationally...but, in her homebase of Florida. My point: Florida demographics are much broader than her Congressional district; so, the intro had the fundraiser was a re-intro to the broader base of the electorally-important Florida. Not huge; just bit by bit and every little step.

    For me, it made sense in the context of a congenial fundraiser. (No need to be so angry with myself attempting an explanation that describes what I have experienced as quite common & acceptable in the context. No pretzel; just natural in the context of what a fundraiser is meant to do. Politics #201, perhaps.)

    Parent

    Let me get this straight (none / 0) (#184)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:28:12 PM EST
    At this "congenial fundraiser", he made that patronizing and paternalistic comment because of the strong Evanglical presence, and a bit of a "backlash toward what some stereotype as the Jewish female".

    How is that not pandering to their baser instincts, while diminishing her accomplishments?  Especially when you further excuse it here:

    So, here, the references to motherhood & other softer images counter the still-potent characterization of a powerful woman as too harsh

    Unless you have a real answer, and not just some stream of consciousness writings that I am really struggling to understand, it's probably best if we just leave it here.

    But you're probably a mom, with a cute smile and all that.


    Parent

    If Wasserman-Schultz were a man (5.00 / 3) (#185)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:37:47 PM EST
    named Donnie Wasserman-Schultz, I find it hard to imagine that Obama would have described him as a "dad, with a cute smile" and tried to "soften" him to make him more acceptable to the group he was speaking to.

    When men in power speak of women like Obama did it lessens them to a degree that I find unacceptable.

    People expect strength from men; as strong as most women I know are, I don't understand why we have to persist in this fiction that there's something bad or scary or wrong about that strength.

    Parent

    Bull (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:24:09 PM EST
    Don't patronize me with your "best if we just leave it here." Take it your way; and, I'll take it mine. But, on issues of feminism & discrimination & condescenstion...I've been there (representing a class of women for discrimination in a class action suit, fighting my own action in another matter at the start of my career that was front page & radio news, speaking on the subject at law schools and at other professional women's organizations.)

    To tell you the truth, I'm bristling...every bit as much as you would profess to be. I've put myself on the line; what about you?  While that doesn't set me apart or above in any way at all, it does allow me to voice my opinion about general comments on the subject such as an intro at a fundraiser.

    You & I may not agree. But, don't attack, please. But then, maybe you do not know the hurt of being on the receiving end of discrimination on the professional level. I don't know. But, I'm not presuming.

    And, dear one, my answer is every bit as real as yours. What are your bona fides in the area?

    (And, as they say, if you want to talk without perjoratives, okay. Just let me know.)

    Parent

    Good for you (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:38:57 PM EST
    That you've put yourself on the line.  I see you don't like being patronized.  But apparently it's perfectly fine with you if Debbie Wasserman Schultz is.  Because of the

    strong Evangelical presence (esp in the Panhandle), [and because] there may be a bit of backlash toward what some stereotype as the Jewish female.

    As for me?  My bona fides?  Are you freaking kidding me?   As far as I'm concerned, "bona fides" aren't necessary to observe what elevates or diminishes the dignity of others.  I need "bona fides" to recognize sexism?

    And whether I've put myself on the line?  Not that it's any of your business, but do you mean when I started my career and had to work twice as hard as any man?  Or do you mean today when I was lectured by a paternalistic old goat on technical concepts I have been putting into practice for oh, the last decade or so?  Or do you mean all the years and incidents in between?  And let me tell you, when I have been in management it was part of my mission to ensure that women were treated as fully fledged members of the team, not the designated note taker.

    And because of all that, I will never excuse or try to justify the kind of comments Obama made based on who was in the audience.  And frankly, based on what you say of your history, I can't believe that you did either.

    Parent

    Your last sentence (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:58:43 PM EST
    is out-of-line, uncalled for, and insulting. (That is the perjorative approach to which I referred earlier.)  As women, shouldn't we allow for differences without disrespecting those who aren't clones of us?

    Parent
    It may be out of line (5.00 / 2) (#200)
    by sj on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 12:54:14 AM EST
     in your eyes, but that was my primary point.  I can't believe you defend this behavior.

    Frankly, I find that insulting.  

    Parent

    And please (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by sj on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 12:56:51 AM EST
    we are far from comadres.  I can't even believe I let you provoke me into a discussion of my own gender which -- I repeat -- is none of your business.  

    Parent
    Unfortunately (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:17:02 PM EST
    this patronizing when characterizing women - his wife no exception - seems more like an integral part of him.

    Parent
    I read most spaces out there (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:37:35 AM EST
    that I frequent on the debate.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Romney and Perry in the backstretch duking it out.

    Racism on Fox Business (none / 0) (#54)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:02:41 PM EST
    Bolling issues a (non)apology for his "Hoodlums in Hizzouse" segment of Fox Business.

    Liberal women are to blame ... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:12:44 PM EST
    ... for political sex scandals, specifically for trying neuter politics and suppress testosterone in men.

    So says Rush Limbaugh.

    He said Weiner's Kitty whipped (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:28:57 PM EST
    What a dumb jerk.  If Weiner was Kitty whipped he wouldn't be checking out other kitties because a kitty owns him and he is overly responsive to one kitty by his own choice.  Why can't Rush hold onto a wife?  I suppose that is my fault too that he turned out to be such a loser to be married to.  I either suppressed him in some way or I put ideas in his past wives heads.

    Parent
    Weird and I thought ... (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:53:37 PM EST
    Oxycontin was to blame.

    ;)

    Parent

    Maybe, but more likely ... (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:56:52 PM EST
    I (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:08:45 PM EST
    Just threw up a little in my mouth

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#113)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:04:30 PM EST
    You think Rush uses Viagra?  He strikes me more as the "impotent and proud of it" type.

    ;)

    Parent

    No need to conjecture (none / 0) (#164)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:27:40 PM EST
    I just whipped up some google for you.  :)  I thought I remembered some news about Limbaugh and Viagra even though I try very hard to NOT remember anything about him.

    Parent
    Was it wise for Pres. Obama to (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:27:10 PM EST
    publicly opine that if he were Rep. Weiner he (Obama) would resign?  I surely do hope Pres. Obama has never tweeted, FBd, e-mailed, etc. in any even arguably salacious way, not to mention taken photos of himself in a government gym.  

    Pretty sure he hasn't done any of that (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:31:18 PM EST
    If he ever had Bret Breitbart would have paid for those photos long long ago.  I'm sure they are trying to find some photoshop artist that is so good they can't be detected.  Breitbart has never been "above" good editing.

    Parent
    Sorry....Andrew Breitbart (none / 0) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:33:26 PM EST
    I don't even know who Bret Breitbart is, but I'm sorry.  And if he is related to Andrew Breitbart I'm double sorry.

    Parent
    Reading Rush Limbaugh always makes my (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:33:59 PM EST
    brain explode :)

    Parent
    Great minds think alike... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:01:33 PM EST
    I figured Breitbart already has a supercomputer searching every image in cyberspace, and has hired a team of conservative co-ed operatives to begin cyber-seduction operations.

    And if that fails, as you said, there is always photoshop:)

    Parent

    The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia (none / 0) (#67)
    by Dadler on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:33:02 PM EST
    watched that trailer (none / 0) (#94)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:33:29 PM EST
    & yeah it's compelling

    but Hollywood hipsters making fun of icky poor people in Appalachia - somehow that doesn't really strike me as "a different kind of documentary"

    loved Jackass & its sequels, but if the Jackass producers want to focus on crime families, call me when they do "a different kind of documentary" about the Bushes or the Koch brothers

    Parent

    I'd have thought the same thing (none / 0) (#115)
    by Dadler on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:05:32 PM EST
    But, I swear to you, for some reason it worked on a level, obviously, Jackass wasn't trying to operate on.  Truthfully, if you saw it without knowing anything, you'd never really know it was the producers of Jackass, it's a str8 documentary, and it's a piece of work alright.

    Parent
    And, obviously, I agree with your other point (none / 0) (#116)
    by Dadler on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:06:30 PM EST
    But life is large.  This is what I saw in bed sick as a dog last night.  Way it goes.

    Parent
    So Huntsman just announced his candidacy. (none / 0) (#99)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:40:30 PM EST
    Should we worry about it?

    No way (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:03:58 PM EST
    he makes it through the primaries.  Two years with Obama?  Nah.  I'd say he takes votes from Romney, which may leave us with an even more polarized GOP field.

    Parent
    As for Huntsman (none / 0) (#169)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:18:11 PM EST
    Here are the latest numbers from CNN and Gallup. The numbers will change but 1% might not get you to the primaries much less through the primaries

    From CNN
    Romney 24
    Palin 20
    Giuliani 12
    Cain 10
    Gingrich 10
    Paul 7
    Bachmann 4
    Pawlenty 3
    Perry 1
    Santorum 1
    Huntsman 1

    From Gallup
    Romney 24
    Palin 16
    Cain 9
    Paul 7
    Pawlenty 6
    Santorum 6
    Gingrich 5
    Bachmann 5
    Huntsman 1

    Parent

    we should, imo (none / 0) (#103)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:47:20 PM EST
    Obama is weakened, & any remotely plausible & presentable GOP candidate could pull enough independents to defeat Obama - especially worrisome, with a not insignificant portion of Obama's base alienated from him & his policies

    Parent
    McDonald's and hypertension (none / 0) (#127)
    by observed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:23:32 PM EST
    This is a terrible story. I have an older male student in my summer class. He's a veteran and very nice guy. He missed all of last week, and I just saw him today. The problem is  his heart.
    He had some pre-existing issues, but what happened is that he went to McD's and had a bunch of fries, and that "did him in".
    He was in bed for a week.

    It's pretty fecked up in Yemen (none / 0) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 02:38:33 PM EST
    We are afraid that Al Qaeda will take over prominent positions due to the power vacuum.  Our ally in this endeavor bringing with them the intel of who's who to the table?  Saudi Arabia

    This is one of those turning points where we are now about to become complicit in the reason that Al Qaeda exists and now they will be justified in their hatred of us. This is where we lose our soul....AGAIN!  We are allied with the House of Saud in hunting them down and killing them....the country that suppresses its people's human and civil rights to the point that it grows Al Qaeda is our ally in hunting and killing Al Qaeda. This is some totally fecked up foreign policy!!!!