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    MO Blue.... how are you feeling? (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:10:39 AM EST
    Healing?

    Developing arachnophobia?

    Latest update (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:36:41 AM EST
    Went to primary doc yesterday. Since the bite area has not gotten worse after starting on the antibiotics on Saturday, she is inclined to think it might not be from a brown recluse spider (hurray, if true). The current "action" plan is to continue taking the antibiotics, apply a new prescription strength antibiotic ointment and see what happens. If it doesn't get worse before then, have it checked out again in a week.

    So far it doesn't look worse but not much better either. Feeling much better and definitely less stressed than when I was thinking about surgery to cut a large chunk out of my leg.

    Regarding developing arachnophobia - no, I'm not there yet. Although, I have always viewed spiders as a "good insect," and current opinion is not quite as friendly.

    Thanks for asking.  

    Parent

    Not a brown recluse (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:51:50 AM EST
    But are they certain it was some kind of spider bite?

    Parent
    I just hope... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:11:04 AM EST
    its not some CIA designed robot bug meant to perform aggressive austerity measures on our people:)

    Here's to a speedy recovery MO!

    Parent

    Hey kdog (none / 0) (#33)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:24:28 AM EST
    Do you think I should start writing I love Obama and everything he does in all of my comments? Don't want no robot bugs getting after me. ;o)

    Parent
    Can't hurt... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:33:33 AM EST
    we certainly don't value honesty as a society, thats for damn sure.

    And another for damn sure, I ain't getting any shots anytime soon after hearing the CIA faux vaccination program news...no shame, no humanity.

    Parent

    Did they actually give real vaccine to the kids? (none / 0) (#140)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:51:00 PM EST
    If so, I'm not sure what your hysteria is about...

    Parent
    Using medicine and doctors... (none / 0) (#145)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 03:00:54 PM EST
    as a ruse to get DNA samples from international criminal suspects doesn't bother you G?  Really?

    I damn well hope people were getting vaccinated, thats the only silver lining to such a sick perverted operation.  

    But with the CIA ya never can tell, they might be testing god knows what on unwilling human lab rats, or performing forced sterilization of Pakistanis....nothing our government hasn't done already.

    Parent

    I'm getting the impression that they (none / 0) (#29)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:20:23 AM EST
    are certain only that it is a bite of some sort based on the information I provided. The first day or so it looked and felt like the standard itchy insect bite. Next think I know it went bad on me. Dark spot developed at site of sting, red area spreading out from that and the leg swelling etc. at which point I went to ER.  

    Parent
    Umm. . . . . (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Towanda on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:12:22 PM EST
    a lot of those symptoms also sound like Lyme's disease.  Any chance it was a tick bite?  Has Lyme's hit Missouri yet?  

    If so, it's important to catch and treat early, too.

    Parent

    From what I gather from an internet (none / 0) (#118)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:01:37 PM EST
    search several hundred cases have been reported in MO. I didn't have to remove a tick?????

    Wouldn't the docs consider this possibility?

    Due to go back early next week. Will discuss with doc then.

    Parent

    I think that sometimes (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by Towanda on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:13:18 PM EST
    the tick can fall off.  That's rare, though.  

    I raised this only because the bite seems to not quite fit what the docs have seen or expected to see or something from first guesses re spiders.  Friends who have had to hassle with Lyme's have had tick bites misdiagnosed, although that was in early days, and I think that more is known now.  Anyway, just in case the doc still is stumped a bit, it might be worth a mention to make sure it's ruled out -- as, again, catching Lyme's early is key to not developing the later symptoms like severe fatigue that has been hard on my friends.

    Parent

    Ticks need to be attached (none / 0) (#143)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:57:29 PM EST
    and feeding for 24 to 48 hours to transmit Lyme, and as far as I know, no tick bite will result in a swollen limb.  That's from some kind of toxin and ticks don't have toxin.

    If Lyme has made its way to your area, it's really a good idea to spend some time reading up on it.  It's a very nasty disease, and if it isn't caught right away is very, very hard to treat.  So you want to learn how to identify the ticks that carry it and where you're likely to encounter them, etc.

    One real issue with ticks is that you can't feel them, so they can be buried head-down in your flesh somewhere you can't see and you'll never know it.  I had one once on the back of my neck for a day before I realized it was there! <shudder>


    Parent

    You may have just (none / 0) (#157)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:38:03 PM EST
    scratched the tick off. Have you noticed a red ring around the area? not simple a red welt all over, but a distinct ring around it?

    Geez, Lyme's is something I actually haven't had, and don't want to get. I guess Missouri's out of my job search picture.

    Bwahahahahaha! NOPLACE is out of the picture... Fukishima hiring? I'm down...

    Parent

    The ER dianosed it as as spider bite (none / 0) (#30)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:22:18 AM EST
    Primary doc didn't commit either way. Talked more about how to treat going forward.

    Parent
    I rather like spiders, but (none / 0) (#139)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:49:34 PM EST
    I also give them a wide berth unless it's one of the few I know positively how to identify.  There are a lot of spiders that can give you a nasty bite, even if not life-threatening or limb-threatening.

    I get the most extraordinary variety of them over the course of the summer in my raspberry bushes, and I'm not sure I've ever seen two of the same kind.  They all seem to be unique.  Wish I knew what they were.

    Parent

    Marcy Wheeler leaving FDL (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:14:41 AM EST
    to blog on her own, and taking bmaz with her.

    I've been doing this a long time, and never took the time to take a step back to figure out how best to do this work. And while I've been privileged to have had the opportunity to do so, six years of manic blogging wears on you. Particularly when that blogging has mostly chronicled a long string of bad news about the rule of law and our Constitution.

    It's time for me to take that step back, and to change the way I work to make sure I can continue to keep it up over what looks to be a long term slog. A key part of that step back will be stepping away from the manic, reactive rhythm I've established here at Firedoglake.

    So sometime on Friday, emptywheel will move to its own server at a different URL (obviously, I'll let everyone know the new details).

    At emptywheel's new home, I will continue doing what I'm doing. I'll be covering civil liberties and abuse of power and the way that ties into our crashing economy. I will no doubt continue to write, a lot. I will continue to do the really weedy work I've always done. But I plan to change the way I work-with a focus on also producing longer, more finished articles and possibly another book project. And bmaz will be coming along to contribute as he has for so long. (Yes, there will be Trash Talk!)

    Marcy does some fine work, and I look forward to her being able to do it in a more in-depth way.

    Good for her (none / 0) (#12)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:24:31 AM EST
    maybe someone like Jeff Kaye, aka Valtin, will step up and contribute similar content.  His posts are always pretty damn good.

    Parent
    And now for something completely different (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:09:11 PM EST
    via Digby, an interesting analysis by Economics of Contempt on why SS and Medicare were put on the table:

    Now, we can argue about whether Obama truly wants to strike a "grand bargain" that cuts Social Security and Medicare. I don't know if he does, and neither do you. (It's certainly possible that he does, but again, I don't know.) However, I think that question, interesting though it may be, is ultimately irrelevant. Even if Obama truly does want a grand bargain, there's simply no way that he thinks they can agree on $1 trillion in tax increases, and an overhaul of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, all in under 2 weeks. Purely as a legislative matter, it's almost an impossible task, which I'm sure Phil Schiliro would have explained to him. So really, the only way the "grand bargain" makes sense is if it's a negotiating strategy.

    And if this is a negotiating strategy, the best explanation is that the White House is using the threat of Social Security and Medicare cuts to scare Democrats into voting for an all-spending-cuts deal.

    Putting Medicare on the table was either done to

    a) make him seem reasonable and the GOP intransigent (I don't think it's "reasonable," but, whatever)

    b) actually put Medicare on the table

    c) scare Democrats (and also apparently Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe - bipartisanship FTW)

    I'm not sure what's going on.

    I don't think anyone is really sure (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:13:45 PM EST
    Pundits like O'Donnell get paid to pretend they know, but they don't. Me, on my own time, I know nothing. I know what I want the results to look like, and that's about it.

    Parent
    I have a hard time (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:52:42 PM EST
    understanding the "reasonableness" arguments because I just don't think a year and a few months from now the American people are going to be obsessing over debt ceiling negotiations.  Obama took out bin Laden and that bump didn't last very long (Gallup).

    Obama's put himself out there big time on behalf of a Big Deal.  I think if he doesn't get some sort of package people will view that as a failure, of the GOP but also on Obama's part.  Why wouldn't you?  If Obama doesn't get what he wants then there's something wrong with Obama.  That seems like a logical line of thought.

    So I assume they want some package to tout in 2012, not some negotiation process people hardly remember.  And based on what I know the package doesn't sound like it will be remotely good.

    Parent

    to the DLC Third Way Neo Lib Blue Dog (none / 0) (#112)
    by seabos84 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:42:22 PM EST
    Clique who've been arse kissing on rich pigz for 20+ years -

    oh, and selling all us working stiffs out in the meantime,

    oh, and keeping their high powered high titled high paid jobs,

    oh, and who can either afford the clap louder cla$$ of sell outs OR think they'll be joining the clap louder cla$$ who can afford the sell outs,

    to the DLC Third Way Neo Lib Blue Dog clique who've been selling out us working stiffs for 20++ years,

    ANYTHING the can bamboozle the working stiffs with is "reasonable".

    the yuppie-scum-forever fifth column of the Democratic party strikes again.

    rmm.

    Parent

    I think that the end game is (none / 0) (#93)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:58:53 PM EST
    to force Democrats in the House - what's left of them after the 2010 election - to do what he wants.

    That part has seemed fairly obvious to me from the start.

    And while I agree that crafting and passing that much revenue generating legislation in two weeks is pure fantasy, there are things like change from 65 to 67 for Medicare that would be a fairly simple part of the legislation to write.  Reducing Social Security payments and or slowing their growth would not take much time to write.  Probably less than a page in both cases.

    I would say what Obama wants is irrelevant more because the proposal he made is not what most of the country wants, not necessarily because we don't or can't "know" what he really truly wants.

    Parent

    Anyone been to Astana, Kazakhstan? (none / 0) (#1)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:55:02 AM EST
    I just saw a job announcement for a new institute there. I might be eligible. I don't imagine I'd be willing to go there, but I'm curious, anyway.
    Googling turned up that Astana is the 2nd coldest national capital in the world, after Ulan Bator, which has an average annual temperature of 27 F.
    Surprisingly to me, Kazakhstan does not have anti-gay laws on the books. I bet the environment is as pristine as a Ural mountain uranium mine.


    Wikil Leaks (none / 0) (#13)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:28:14 AM EST
    There was some great stuff about Astana in the Wiki Leaks telegrams.  

    Parent
    Thanks. (none / 0) (#18)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:39:14 AM EST
    I am thinking there is a lot of money at the school. First off, Kazakhstan had oil and natural gas; second, they wouldn't be advertising in the US unless they were going to offer very high salaries, IMO.

    Parent
    two words: Nursultan Nazarbayev (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:24:00 AM EST
    Dictator deluxe.   Which means, be prepared for a culture that is emotionally dead, as many formerly (and still) totalitarian states are.  

    Parent
    But, but, (none / 0) (#41)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:44:18 AM EST
    Nazarbayev must be good, he receives about 90 percent of the vote.   Is he the guy who boils dissidents in oil, or am I mixing up my stans?

    Parent
    Oh right. I knew the name was (none / 0) (#45)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:50:31 AM EST
    familiar. It's Nazarbayev University, btw.
    IIRC, Uzbekistan is the country where rendered people were boiled in oil.


    Parent
    I read a book on (none / 0) (#141)
    by suzieg on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:56:39 PM EST
    Elinor Burkett yearlong odyssey with her assignment as a Fullbright Professor teaching journalism in Kyrgyzstan just south of Kazakhstan. She loved it. It might give you an idea of what life is about in that part of the world.

    The title is: So Many Enemies, So Little Time by Elinor Burkett

    Parent

    thanks! (none / 0) (#173)
    by observed on Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 11:01:28 AM EST
    Kazakhstan (none / 0) (#158)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:40:22 PM EST
    does have major environmental issues. First, it was/is? the rocked base for the old USSR, then lots of pollution from construction of said equipment.


    Parent
    Sure, but the country is huge (none / 0) (#169)
    by observed on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 01:15:27 PM EST
    is that particular area polluted?

    Parent
    The whole frikkin (none / 0) (#170)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 03:28:20 PM EST
    country was a toxic waste dump. Let someone else look for specifics. I mentioned what I know about Kazakhstan, except for the apples. Best and largest apples in the world come from there. First place apples were cultivated.

    Happy now?

    Parent

    yes, very..thanks! (none / 0) (#171)
    by observed on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 08:18:35 PM EST
    Interesting about the apples. I was intrigued at seeing the ad, but its a remote possibility at this point.
     Astana has some new and striking architecture


    Parent
    This is (none / 0) (#166)
    by Nemi on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 06:49:35 AM EST
    what comes to my mind when hearing/seeing "Astana, Kazakhstan". ;)

    Parent
    Interesting BBC article... (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:57:22 AM EST
    on "Operation Julie", of "Julie's in the Drug Squad" infamy...what some consider the dawn of the modern war on drugs.

    Downhill ever since.

    Apparently the GOP (none / 0) (#3)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:04:17 AM EST
    can't actually find the cuts that they want:

    Cantor was unable to put on the negotiating table a list of $2 trillion in spending cuts Republicans would propose that have any chance of passing.

    That about sums up where we are at this stage of this ridiculous Kabuki theater. Republicans are taking the country to the brink of default demanding spending cuts that will signify their commitment to fiscal responsibility, smaller government and austerity -- but for reasons that are political in the macro and micro sense, they can't come up with a list of cuts that actually gets the job done. It's not that they can't do the math. Believe me.

    So the question today for House Republicans and everyone else involved in these so-called negotiations -- the questions our reporters will be asking -- is why can't they come up with $2 trillion in spending cuts. And if they can, show them to us.

    Sooooo...yeah.  

    THIS demonstrates Obama's mistake (5.00 / 6) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:37:11 AM EST
    He did not need to negotiate about the debt ceiling.

    He needed to have the GOP make its proposals, Ryan Budget style.

    And then bludgeon away.

    This demonstrates the idiocy of Lawrence O'Donnell as reference by ABG above, and frankly, ABG himself.

    Parent

    I don't think "not negotiating" is ever (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:10:55 AM EST
    an option for Obama - it seems that he sees taking a hard and fast position on anything to be the unreasonable approach - and because he believes that "reasonability" is the most important quality one can bring to the table, all the other side ever has to do is frown and he's right there with some sort of compromise.

    And they know that.

    So whatever Master Chess O'Donnell and ABG think Obama is playing here, I'm pretty sure the other side has their own game, and are playing Obama like a Stradivarius.

    Even if, by some miracle that will have me looking to see if pigs have taken wing, there would be a clean bill in the end, what Obama has signaled is that he is more than open to the kinds of changes and cuts that Republicans fairly drool over - and they will find a way to get them in a way that will only have Democratic fingerprints on them.

    For a long, long time, Democrats have been the bulwark against the destruction of the social safety net; Obama seems hell-bent on dismantling that barrier, and I'm pretty sure there are very few people who vote who are going to reward him - or the party - for that.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#20)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:44:45 AM EST
    I don't think he wants a clean debt ceiling bill.  He wants a bipartisan Big Deal.

    I find that to be a mistake.  So I can't really say whether or not his attempts at getting a bipartisan Big Deal are going well or not.

    Parent

    Obama seemed determined to (none / 0) (#21)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:47:52 AM EST
    be a legacy President. He's playing rope a dope with history just because he thinks he's the best thing since Jesus and sliced bread.

    Parent
    Not to worry (none / 0) (#34)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:28:26 AM EST
    Obama will save the day and propose many spending cuts that the GOP can get behind.

    Parent
    Anybody else... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:06:14 AM EST
    totally creeped out and appalled by the CIA's phony vaccination program in Pak?

    If we're looking for sh*t to cut, CIA is a great place look along with DEA/ICE/ATF/DHS/TSA/FBI..., you catch my drift.

    If I understand, they were trying to (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:08:21 PM EST
    collect DNA to see if OBL was there.

    What's your problem???

    Parent

    Where do I start... (none / 0) (#83)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:41:25 PM EST
    deception and use of a vaccination program as assasination tool?

    Parent
    Uh, the tool was to find out if (none / 0) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:13:03 PM EST
    OBL was there, not to kill him with a needle..

    Not that that would be bad... especially if he would die slowly, say over two or three weeks... with lots and lots of pain..

    Kdog, we're at war. Gird up the loins of your mind.. (1 Peter 1:13) ...or something.

    Parent

    Doctors as spooks... (none / 0) (#168)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 07:44:17 AM EST
    if you see no issue in mixing the business of medicine and the business of spooking in such a manner, I can't help ya bud.

    Would it be ok to do a flu shot program ruse in the US to collect DNA and round up people with warrants?  Where's your line on deputizing doctors?

    Parent

    Come on, Kdog (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 11:56:20 PM EST
    We were doing this to find a man who is responsible for killing thousands...

    What you are doing is arguing "slippery slope" when there is not one.

    Parent

    When did he ever have any in the first place? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:07:27 AM EST
    Maher Arar wonders the same thing. (none / 0) (#6)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:09:00 AM EST
    Can you render an answer to his question?

    Parent
    Laurance O'Donnell (none / 0) (#8)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:13:04 AM EST
    "What you are now witnessing is the most masterful rope-a-dope ever performed by a president against an opposition party in Congress. It began months ago... Joe Biden then lead negotiations with House Republicans about how to find a compromise position on the White House position of doing nothing but raising the debt ceiling and the Republicans position of cutting $4 trillion in spending while raising the debt ceiling. Biden and House Democrats then rope-a-doped the Republicans into weeks of discussions over trillions of dollars of spending cuts. And during that time, Democrats appeared to be increasingly willing to go along with trillions of dollars of spending cuts -- possibly as much as three trillion. Then Biden and the President insisted that there be at least a trillion in tax revenue increases and Republican Eric Cantor fell for the Obama ultimatum and walked out of the talks doing exactly what the President wanted him to do because Cantor was thereby proving to the country once again that President Obama was willing to be much more flexible and reasonable in these negotiations and compromises with Republicans than Republicans were willing to be with the President. Specific policy issues aside, President Obama has already won the public contest of who appears to be more reasonable and he won that weeks ago." . . . O'Donnell then goes onto explain how Republicans are now running from their own positions with the end of this game very likely leading to a passage of the debt ceiling without any preconditions, the position the President wanted from Day One."

    Link

    No idea whether that is correct, but let me just warn everyone in advance that if that happens I am going to be the most annoying person in TL comment history for like a day and a half.

    Take out the "rope" and (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:17:30 AM EST
    I agree wholeheartedly with O'Donnell.

    Parent
    How many dimensions (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by smott on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:28:23 AM EST
    ...are we up to now?...

    Parent
    No dimensions (none / 0) (#27)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:15:07 AM EST
    Another angle, and the one I believe is true, is that Obama is that everyone (on both the left and the right)can't seem to get their heads around the fact that the man actually means what he says.  Here is Drum:

    "I don't know all the reasons for this. But my guesses are fairly conventional. (1) Obama truly believes that the long-term debt is a problem, and this is a good opportunity to do something about it with bipartisan cover. (2) He wants Republicans on record as supporting a tax increase. Why? Perhaps he believes that once he's forced Republicans away from an absolutist position, that position is gone for good and it will make future negotiations less hostile. (3) He's courting independents, and independents want a deal that gets concessions from both sides.

    But the reasons don't matter much. Just do this: whenever you think Obama has done something dumb or weakminded or inexplicable,  remind yourself that he doesn't necessarily have the same goals as you. He sincerely wants a deal that involves concessions from both sides, and once you understand that his actions will suddenly seem a lot less dumb, weakminded, and inexplicable. In fact, they'll seem pretty obvious."

    I think all of that is right.  It's what many people don't like about him, but the reality is that he has said as much from the start of his campaign.

    I just don't think people believed him.

    Parent

    Shorter Drum (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:31:39 AM EST
    "Once you realize that Obama's goals are dumb, weakminded and inexplicable then his actions make perfect sense."

    Parent
    I think many people are realizing that (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:31:45 AM EST
    he doesn't necessarily have the same goals as we do.

    He does want to make cutting SS, Medicare an Medicaid part of the deal and would be more than willing to accept a regressive tax increase like what is contained in the chained CPI in exchange.  

    Parent

    I don't understand (none / 0) (#35)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:29:08 AM EST
    do you think Obama wants

    a) passage of the debt ceiling without any preconditions

    or

    b) a bipartisan Big Deal.

    Drum and O'Donnell are saying very different things.

    Parent

    I think (b) primarily (none / 0) (#42)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:48:04 AM EST
    I think he sees this as an opportunity to get done what otherwise he could not.  But if it fails, he has to fall back into a more partisan stance and the optics and strategy set up well for (b) as well.  
    If everything blows up, the strategy also sets up for spinning in the event of default.

    Parent
    Is it hard to type from such a (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:31:25 PM EST
    contortionist position?  Are you forced to look through the space between your arm and your keyboard while hooking one leg around the desk because the other leg is hooked behind your head?

    Seriously, ABG, do you realize that you have not acknowledged the possibility of any scenario where Obama does not come out of this looking and smelling like a rose?  

    You are right about one thing: he is using this phony crisis to get some things done that he couldn't do if he had to get actual votes and the support of the people most likely to be negatively affected - you know, with actual leadership.  He definitely has an agenda, and for the life of me, I do not understand why you are willing to accept it as long as, in the end, he benefits in some way.  I have yet to see you honestly answer the basic question: if what Obama is doing and proposing and floating were coming out of the mouth of President McCain, or President Romney, or ANY Republican president, would you be supporting any of it - the policy, the strategy, the consequences?

    You know, there is nothing wrong with partisanship when it is in support of policies we know are better than what is coming from the other side.  There is nothing wrong with using one's partisan ideology to lead people to a better place on policy.  Seems to me that the partisan - and Democratic - strategy and position is to push - hard - for a clean bill; if there had been as much effort and energy put into that position, as there has been on Obama's side in manufacturing and using this crisis to the detriment of most of the people who would be affected, well, we might be getting ourselves a clean bill.  

    But we will never know what those possibilities would be, because that was never - in spite of Obama's saying he wanted a clean bill maybe what - once or twice? - part of the endgame here.

    I KNOW that Obama doesn't have the same goals I do; that's the problem.

    Next thing you'll be telling us is that Obama's making his hair go gray because that just screams "I have a very hard job - look what it's doing to me!"


    Parent

    I think your second (b) (none / 0) (#51)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:01:00 PM EST
    should be an (a) right?

    Anyway I do think Obama wants (b).  So I fail to follow O'Donnell's analysis.  Is Obama's "reasonableness" going to significantly reshape the political landscape?  I really don't think so.  

    Parent

    Both have advantages (none / 0) (#164)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:00:59 PM EST
    ...but, the "Big Deal" may have the most lasting advantages in that the usual Repub chorus about Dems & taxes would have to be fairly muted for a decade or so (and, it certainly takes away the issue they would most want to parley in 2012 because--don't forget--the Repubs really have never been able to sustain more than a few sentences about jobs...not earlier & not now.)

    From a political perspective: President Obama wins with either (a) or (b)...but, if wanting a memorable act or legacy is part of it, the (b) would be sweeter.

    BTW, lilburro, you have asked directly & sideways in the past day or so about why people focus so much on "reasonableness." For me (& for some friends with whom I've discussed this), to be seen to be "reasonable" is a big draw, very appealing in a leader, exemplifies good judgment as well as an ability to think, weigh issues, & make well-grounded decisions. In the US, I believe, it can be a central factor in viewing a candidate or official in a positive way because we tend to pride ourselves (or convince ourselves) that the US is essentially reasonable, that people talk & listen & compromise & make sound, reasoned decisions.

     I'm guessing here: In my estimation, when one stomps away from a talk (see Cantor and McConnell and, less so, Boehner) where people expect results in the "can do" version of America, the public is less likely to perceive it as principled and more likely to consider it petulant, childish. Obama has been going out of his way to seem "the adult in the room"...and, he is thowing it out there with "eat your peas." Because he has so methodically sought comromise (he noted what people already saw, that he "bent over backwards" to reach resolution on this issue of importance to the country) while the Repubs routinely & periodically said "no" & made unilateral demands, it is no wonder that Obama would appear more "reasonable."

    Again, think of our culture: People imagine that we should be calm, reasonable, thoughtful, letting everyone have their say. Well...that is what we like to imagine. Bottom line: In the absence of genius on the other side, "reasonableness" wins everytime. And, no, the ins & outs won't be remembered a year from now. What will be remembered...and, you better believe that Obama will burnish that image from time to time...is that President Obama is a reasonable man. A good place to be in any election, especially where the other side keeps painting itself as unreasonable. To voter: Who do you trust? Mr. Reasonable or Mr/Ms Unreasonable or Bats in the Belfry or Stubborn as they come? Ans: Trust choice is a good indicator of who the average voter will vote for.

    Parent

    ABG (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:32:30 AM EST
    What Obama is doing is wrong on every level, politically and morally.  That he wants to cut the budget for the poor and needy and elderly in this time means he is...A SCUMBAG.   He deserves to lose his job and be as marginalized as Dubya.  

    You seem to have absolutely no ability to play devil's advocate with your own ideas.  

    Parent

    Why do I need to play devil's advocate (none / 0) (#49)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:58:44 AM EST
    here?

    By my measurement, if I play that role, there will be no one commenting on TL playing the devil's advocate in the other direction.

    Just a chorus of agreement.

    it would be interesting to hear others play devil's advocate and flip their positions around though.

    Parent

    You play the role of devil's (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:08:10 PM EST
    advocate because that is the role you chose.

    Others do not flip their positions around because they do not think Obama stripping away programs that people need to survive is a game where anything that can be spun as beneficial to Obama is considered a win regardless of how many people the policies hurt.  

    Parent

    I don't think Obama (none / 0) (#58)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:10:40 PM EST
    has stripped any program away.

    Perhaps we should wait and see what happens before we speak as if it has occurred.

    Parent

    two years have happened, Einstein (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:28:12 PM EST
    And you will never blame your messiah for anything.   He hasn't stoop up and fought for a single thing that could be called progressive.  He is dragged by others, that is not a leader.

    Also, you do not serve a real purpose here, since you are engaging in opinions that don't even require a free country to have.

    Kissing the as* of your dear leader, over and over, can be done in any totalitarian state.  Only the act of saying NO to power requires freedom.

    The only purpose you serve here is to evidence that you possess little that could be called a free mind of your own.

    Try again, minor leaguer.

    Parent

    Obviously he has different goals (none / 0) (#47)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:51:21 AM EST
    Same overall goal (none / 0) (#52)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:08:04 PM EST
    different paths.

    Parent
    Clearly false n/t (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:10:38 PM EST
    My bad (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:11:09 PM EST
    Obama is evil and hates children, old people and the sick.

    That's the ticket.

    Parent

    Weak n/t (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:19:27 PM EST
    you mean (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by sj on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:43:20 PM EST
    poor children, old and/or sick people.  Right?

    Parent
    To make your quote fit Tin Cup (none / 0) (#80)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:40:43 PM EST
    he hates old people, children, and dogs.

    Parent
    Yes, and in the long run, the (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    we're all dead too. I think JM Keynes had some observation you might find relevant... something about the uselessness of knowing that things are going to improve in the long run.

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#55)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:08:32 PM EST
    Ah, yes, I remember it well (none / 0) (#144)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:59:52 PM EST
    the soaring speech he made somewhere during the campaign about how we had to cut SS and Medicare benefits.  Very inspirational indeed.


    Parent
    So...I guess this brilliant, (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:31:50 AM EST
    11-dimensional chess game started - when? - back when Obama got the Congress to reject a Deficit Commission, so he could put one together himself?  Or was it back during the campaign, when he practiced his Dad-in-Chief persona to lecture us about the coming tough choices that were going to need to be made?  Guess I missed the "wink-wink" there.

    Do you think the CIA is in on it?  I mean, how else to pull together a conspiracy this large?

    Or is this just a conspiracy of one - where the only one in on the Grand Bamboozle is The One himself?

    Honestly, Booman must be over the moon reading O'Donnell this morning - he's gonna latch onto this like nobody's business.  Just as you have.

    And, oh, by the way - I'm not sure it's possible for you to be any more annoying, but I do think your gullibility level is going through the roof; sadly, this seems to be lowering your intellectual abilities quite severely.

    It isn't often that one can use the word "guffaw," but your comments and O'Donnell's are evoking exactly that response from me - thanks for the laugh.


    Parent

    I think it's entirely possible (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by CST on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:16:00 AM EST
    that this was how they hoped it would go down.

    They completely miscalculated the public though.  No one is looking for flexible.  We're looking for leadership and a better economy.

    If this is all just a giant perception game they have already lost.

    Parent

    Well I don't know why (none / 0) (#11)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:19:35 AM EST
    yesterday you were telling me that a reasonable outcome was Jay Newton-Small's scenario which was about 2.3 trillion in cuts, about 1 trillion in revenue.  My response was the progressive option was to just raise the debt ceiling.  You said that wasn't a very likely outcome and was not on the table.

    O'Donnell then goes onto explain how Republicans are now running from their own positions with the end of this game very likely leading to a passage of the debt ceiling without any preconditions, the position the President wanted from Day One.

    So as it turns simply raising the debt ceiling was not just on the table, but is Obama's actual endgame!  Even though no-one knew that yesterday and Obama gives no impression that that is his endgame!

    So maybe I will be the one crowing.

    Parent

    It was a break-through (none / 0) (#19)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:42:11 AM EST
    when Keith Olbermann returned to a time slot that competes with Lawrence O'Donnell. That having been said, if O'Donnell's sources are really more sane that this scenario sounds, arrival at the intended destination took a journey that underscores the importance of buckling up your seat belts.  However, the vehicle transporting us to that destination is pretty banged up even if the driver is seen as being an expert because he drove steadily down the center of the road.

    Parent
    Don't watch Olbermann but it is my (none / 0) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:58:02 AM EST
    understanding he went after Obama hard over potential cuts to Social Security and Medicare

    Parent
    Yes, he did a good job on this. (none / 0) (#48)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:55:02 AM EST
    I don't watch him either but did read about this (none / 0) (#64)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:15:22 PM EST
    link to his comments

    Regardless of my view of him, he is influential and is so with young voters. It will not serve the dems well to lose his cheerleading.

    Parent

    Hey, Obama (none / 0) (#67)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:20:31 PM EST
    doesn't need Olbermann cheerleading for him. He has Baghdad Bob (h/t to Jeff).

    Parent
    IMO (none / 0) (#98)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:03:06 PM EST
    He is going to need Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. But if he loses KO or Maddow it will hurt. ABG is part of the blogging fringe and he is not nearly as affective an advocate as are others on TL.

    Parent
    Forgot the snark tag on my (none / 0) (#104)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:23:03 PM EST
    comment. I do agree with your comment especially.

    he is not nearly as affective an advocate as are others on TL.


    Parent
    But he drove down the center (none / 0) (#25)
    by Towanda on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:10:58 AM EST
    of the road while the twits were atwitter because he was tweeting, too.  (What in the world was that pseudo-event about amid this serious business?)

    This is not the sign of a safe driver, folks.  Buckle up for a rough ride, indeed.

    Parent

    He's the kind of "driver" who (none / 0) (#31)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:23:32 AM EST
    causes me to mutter - or sometimes, even shout - "Pick a lane!"  They are dangerous - you never know what they're going to do - are they going to turn left, right, are they lost?

    Seriously, Obama needs to pick a lane; this driving down the center of the road is probably ticking off more people than he thinks it's pleasing.

    Parent

    IMO he has been driving in the (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:59:04 AM EST
    right lane with just enough of his vehicle in the left lane to block anyone from moving in that lane.  

    Parent
    And without clear signalling (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Towanda on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:17:54 PM EST
    -- all of which, of course, describes too many Illinois drivers, who drive each other crazy as he is doing to us now.  Maybe it was more than his community organizing job that shaped Obama's approach.  Maybe it was getting to the job and back that also taught him too many bad habits.

    Parent
    Lawrence O'Donnel (none / 0) (#40)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:36:57 AM EST
    Lives in a rich person's fantasy world and has zero conception of reality for anyone else.  He is, through his own words, an ignorant fool.  He is like a spoiled prep school kid believing he can experientially contribute to a discussion of poverty.

    Parent
    You mean (none / 0) (#44)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:48:57 AM EST
    the guy calling himself a socialist and railing as hard as anyone against wall street every night?

    That guy?

    Parent

    Dubya self described himself as a (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:10:42 PM EST
    compassionate conservative. You have described yourself as a liberal on occasion. As we can see from both examples, self descriptions are not always accurate.

    Parent
    And you are the judge? (none / 0) (#65)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:17:55 PM EST
    I am a liberal in any sphere other than the fringes.


    Parent
    To you anything to the left of (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:25:34 PM EST
    Obama's most right wing position is the fringes.

    Most liberals I know would strenuously object after reading your comments here to having you represent them as a liberal voice.  

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#75)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:34:01 PM EST
    Not  true.  

    But anyone who defends Obama on any of these issues is a conservative to you so it will be impossible to dissuade you of the notion.

    Parent

    Defend long held conservative positions, (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:50:34 PM EST
    promote conservative policies makes it reasonable for people to think that you share the conservative ideology.

    Parent
    Calling your opponents (none / 0) (#77)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:37:47 PM EST
    'the fringes' does absolutely nothing to advance your leader's re-election prospects next year. You should rethink your strategy.

    Parent
    What am I supposed to call them (none / 0) (#82)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:41:10 PM EST
    It's the truth. The majority of dems do not agree with many of the positions taken here.  The majority of people who call themselves liberals do not either.

    I would guess that the opinions here, if looked at as a whole, represent about 15% of the overall population, and 35% or so of the democratic/liberal population.  By definition, it's the minority.

    Now it may be a minority that is completely right while the mad, mad world is wrong, but calling it a minority isn't an insult. That's just the truth.

    I'll use "minority liberal" instead of fringe if that changes anything.

    Parent

    A lot of people in Kansas (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:51:04 PM EST
    may think the earth is flat, too, but the "fringe" viewpoint that it is round will be correct. As far as I can tell, when you harp on the notion that people here are outside of the mainstream, it's because you can't base an argument on the merits.

    Parent
    I make the mainstream point (none / 0) (#107)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:30:12 PM EST
    only when someone claims that they are liberal and I am not.

    I remind them that no, actually I am the face of most liberals and they, in reality, are not.

    Then they get pissed, tell me they are not talking to me anymore and call me Reagan, a conservative, etc.

    Basically they satisfy every negative stereotype of liberals imaginable.

    To me it's funny because the world outside of this little ecosystem is much different and grants a sense of power a unity with others of a like mind.
    That doesn't mean that these people are the judges of who gets to be liberal or not.

    Parent

    Anyone who says "I make the (none / 0) (#115)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:46:23 PM EST
    mainstream point" to make a point, is a flaming ashhole

    Parent
    ...and is a centrist, not a liberal... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:59:58 PM EST
    If the "minority" comprising those (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:00:53 PM EST
    who believed in and fought for civil rights and gender equality - and are still fighting - had been willing to be marginalized as you have been marginalizing many of the liberal positions expressed on this blog, where do you think we would be?

    Where would you be?  Where would I, as a woman, be?  Where would the gay members of this community be?

    Un-f**king-believable.

    Parent

    The topic is (none / 0) (#105)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:24:51 PM EST
    what is a liberal.  I am a liberal.

    A completely different topic is the good and the bad of the minority of the liberal movement or any other movement.

    Sometimes the minority is good (slavery) and sometimes they are bad (opposition to military interventions to stop a humanitarian crisis IMHO).

    But that's not what we are talking about Anne.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:33:54 PM EST
    A liberal is someone who thinks for him/herself.  You do nothing of the kind.  

    For you, whatever Obama does is right.  You practice very little free thought.

    You are a cheerleader.  Cheerleading is NOT liberal.  

    You may think you're liberal, but that is yet another of your delusions.  

    Parent

    You're a Reagan Democrat at best, and (none / 0) (#114)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:45:35 PM EST
     more like a Gingrich Republican---not quite a Bachmann Republican.

    Parent
    You really are (none / 0) (#85)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:45:47 PM EST
    nothing but a troll at this point. I'm not going to waste any more of my time on your idiocy. Good day.

    Parent
    Hilarious (none / 0) (#106)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:26:12 PM EST
    Did you spin smartly on your heel with your nose in the air when you typed that.

    No worries.  I'll still be here if you come back.

    And a chipper day to you my good frustrated friend.

    Parent

    You are right in that the majority (none / 0) (#92)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:57:19 PM EST
    of people are not informed and don't particularly want to be.

     And one of Obama's largest demographic supporters were the youth. Many of them get their news from Jon Stewart and facebook and spend their time trying to forge their place, trying to survive or to just get by. Identity politics is very important to them, so it will count as to who can get ahead of the spin, and who is listening. Unhappy parents and grandparents might have a huge impact on this group.

    The informed fringe is hugely important, and ignoring or dissing them will cost Obama.

    Parent

    Believing that people (none / 0) (#96)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:01:25 PM EST
    who don't agree with you are not informed is the not helpful.

    There are plenty of very informed people who believe as I and others like me do.  I believe that I sit in the center of those liberal who are informed about the issues.

    The Ezra Kleins, Drums and Yglesias of the world, for example, aren't ignorant and I believe they represent the center of left thinking.

    Parent

    Ahh...I see.... (none / 0) (#99)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:08:32 PM EST
    It's not the center, it's the center of the left. So many gradations, so little time.

    Ezra Klein, indeed.

    Parent

    If the opinions here represent 15% (none / 0) (#101)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:14:59 PM EST
    the overall population and 20% of the overall population call themselves liberal or very liberal, then we represent the majority of the liberal population.

    Parent
    You are a liberal (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:33:53 PM EST
    in the eyes of Fox News.

    The other day you said 'who needs social security? People should just save their money instead.' That's not a liberal position. You are to the right of the tea party on that one.

    Parent

    No Warren (none / 0) (#78)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:37:59 PM EST
    I never said 'who needs social security? People should just save their money instead.'

    What I said was that I am in a position to pay int SS but take nothing out because my pay has been high enough for enough years that I should be in a position to do so.  As someone more well off, I believe that this change, in effect a tax increase on people in my bracket and above, is worthwhile and I would be happy to do it.  

    The fact that that translated to you into 'who needs social security? People should just save their money instead.' proves my point about judgments on liberal v. conservative.

    The point I was making was a "tax the rich" liberal one but because it came from me, you didn't even read or think about it closely.

    Lot of that going on in this debate.

    Parent

    You said (none / 0) (#84)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:44:02 PM EST
    and I quote: "If I save my money the way I should, I shouldn't need SS."

    Bill O'Reilly couldn't have said it better.

    Parent

    You're forgetting, Warren (none / 0) (#110)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:36:14 PM EST
    Not only does he spin Obama.  He also spins himself.  He is a Wall Street guy, he can't help his right-wing tendencies.  Forgive him. ;-).

    Parent
    Heh Baghdad Bob! You so funny! (none / 0) (#160)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:51:29 PM EST
    WABGRM... a new,
    TL specific abbreviation?

    Don't worry ABG, I've been on the road all day, and now I have a line on a job in northern Alabama, and two or more hopefuls online, and my xanax now that I'm home (Note to self, vacation without xanax good, with xanax probably better).

    I'll engage you tomorrow or the next day, Baghdad Bob. We'll have plenty to disagree about then, don't worry.

    Parent

    Lawrence O'Donnell (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:21:52 PM EST
    A socialist?

    A ha ha ha ha ha h!

    You have evidenced nothing, by the way, that would define you as a liberal, which means, btw, "of or pertaining to a free person."  Truly free people don't kow-two to political games or believe them necessary, as you do, in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

    Your slavish acceptance and rationalizing of all that Obama does are NOT the hallmarks of being liberal or free.


    Parent

    I am a liberal because (none / 0) (#90)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:53:11 PM EST
    I believe in the following and am therefore a liberal

    1. Strong separation between church and state
    2. Welfare safety net
    3. Healthcare for all
    4. Strong privacy rights (anti-patriot act)
    5. Complete Gender Equality
    6. Complete LGBT Equality
    7. Anti-Iraq/Afghanistan and similar wars
    8. Pro Palestinian statehood
    9. Anti-drug war
    10. Anti-death penalty

    That's 10 quick hits. If that isn't liberal, I don't want to be one.

    You are confusing pragmatism with ideology.

    Parent

    LOL. (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    Nice list. Too bad your pitter-patter on TL doesn't match it. (Case in point: JimakaPPJ consistently tells us he is in favor of single payer health care. Does that make him a liberal? At least he doesn't pretend to be one, for the sake of playing "devil's advocate.")

    Parent
    Nice list (none / 0) (#134)
    by sj on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:39:17 PM EST
    I bet I could make one that showed a right-wing agenda.

    It wouldn't me an advocate.

    Parent

    Some of us might say you are already (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:11:30 PM EST
    ;-)

    Parent
    Some of us might say you are already (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:11:30 PM EST
    ;-)

    Parent
    Have you no sense of decency IRS? (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:48:50 AM EST
    Can ya believe they are gonna chase down the totally unselfish dude who caught Jeter's 3000th for taxes on the free tickets he did not ask for yet received from a grateful ballclub?  Dude is a hundred grand in the hole on student loans, selling cell phones for a living, and they are gonna shake him down for 3 grand.  Seriously?

    Hopefully the Yanks pay the taxes, the only empire more evil than the Yanks is our government.

    When I saw the headline, I thought (none / 0) (#69)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:24:54 PM EST
    the IRS planned to estimate the fair market value of the ball, had he kept it, and tax him on that amount.

    Parent
    Not that bad... (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:39:46 PM EST
    though it wouldn't surprise me if the thought crossed their minds.

    Karl Hess said it best about the IRS, I paraphrase...'they don't care about what is right, only about what is legal.'

    Parent

    I presume you have read (none / 0) (#91)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:54:06 PM EST
    that the enemy of taxes and Tea Bag Party favorite Michele Bachmann made her living pre-politician as an attorney for the IRS chasing these types of things.

    Parent
    I did not know this (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:02:33 PM EST
    Too. effing. funny. Ron Swanson lives!!

    Parent
    From the Wall Street Journal (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:16:56 PM EST
    WHITE EARTH, Minn.--Republican presidential hopeful Michele Bachmann touts one job as her primary professional experience before entering politics. On the campaign trail, she describes it as being a "federal tax litigation attorney." Others might call it tax collector.

    Ms. Bachmann spent four years with the Internal Revenue Service district counsel office in St. Paul, Minn.



    Parent
    That's kind of funny. (none / 0) (#103)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:19:00 PM EST
    I need (none / 0) (#109)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:34:18 PM EST
    to give myself thirty lashes for typing Tea Bag Party instead of Tea Party. A Freudian typo slip that I never caught even with preview.

    Parent
    I have... (none / 0) (#113)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:43:03 PM EST
    its ok though, its only because the allmighty made her do it...mysterious ways and all that:)

    All kidding aside, it says it all about her piker-dom.

    Parent

    More on the job front (none / 0) (#46)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:51:19 AM EST
    Job openings flat in May, a sign of slow hiring

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The number of job postings didn't increase in May, a sign that hiring is unlikely to pick up this summer.

    Employers advertised nearly 3 million job openings, the Labor Department said. That is the same amount as in April and down from 3.1 million in March.



    Meanwhile, yesterday on "All Things (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:29:12 PM EST
    Considered," a couple of professors from Ball State University have studied the effects on interest rates of U.S. failure to pay about $120,000 due on bonds in the 1970s.  Oversight, not debt limit.  Interest rates went up ASAP by .6 and stayed there at least six months.  

    Was airing this story a scare tactic planted by WH?  Strange.

    I also heard that piece (none / 0) (#76)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:34:03 PM EST
    and came to the same conclusion: scare tactic. Gotta think of who NPR's intended audience is these days (not the DFHs, who more likely listen to PRI's "Democracy Now.")

    Parent
    Taylor Marsh muses (none / 0) (#86)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:45:55 PM EST
    that Huntsman is the real stalking dog in the race. I agree he is the one to watch out for, if he wins the nomination. But her suggestion about him running as an independent is interesting.

    No one can run as an independent an win. (none / 0) (#122)
    by masslib on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:07:37 PM EST
    You need a national campaign apparatus.  If he runs, it will be on the Republican ticket.

    Parent
    I think she makes essentially the same argument (none / 0) (#125)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:11:35 PM EST
    but if he was another mega-rich guy, like Ross Perot, he could really create he[[ for both party candidates. And I still think that, if he were to get the GOP nominination, he could win.

    Parent
    I think it will be huntsman (none / 0) (#156)
    by loveed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 07:12:16 PM EST
    I find it interesting that his name is never mention on FOX. The Rove wing of the party hates huntsman. He has not been on FOX Sunday.

      They have no control over him. He has his own financial base. His manager Davis hates Rove.

       Quietly he is shoring up the base. He earned more money in one day 4mil. than Pawlenty did in the whole quarter

      This is an example of quiet endorsement. http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/07/12/connected-sc-family-steps-huntsman

     

    Parent

    Huntsman (none / 0) (#159)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:40:23 PM EST
    is a little like the 4th string quarterback in a NFL training camp. Everyone likes him and talks about his skills, and then he disappears one day without ever playing a down and ten years down the road someone in a bar will ask whatever happened to...

    Parent
    Or, they keep him for the practice squad (none / 0) (#162)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:06:16 PM EST
    and when the 1,2 and 3 start going down in flames (show to be anemic), they call him up ;) They need a spare 'Mr Reasonable' on the roster.

    I think he stands a chance of being the alternate for Mittens. Mittens has baggage and is kinda stale at this point . . .

    Parent

    Anybody on Google+ (none / 0) (#111)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:38:11 PM EST
    Anybody want to be?  I don't think you need an invite, but if you'd like one, set up a gmail account and then email me at the email address on my TL info page and I'll send you one.

    What is it, exactly? (none / 0) (#116)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:57:36 PM EST
    In other words...what is the benefit, and will I get even more google spam in my email spambox than I do now??

    Parent
    it's essentially (none / 0) (#119)
    by CST on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:03:15 PM EST
    facebook, only on google.  And it is more effective at categorizing and limiting content with people.  For example, not everyone comes in as a "friend".  You can group people more easily into friend/coworker/family categories and choose to share certain info with certain groups.

    If you're not big on social networking it's probably not or you, but I could see it become a viable substitute for facebook.

    Parent

    Thanks for explaining (none / 0) (#124)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:08:41 PM EST
    I think Facebook is creepy, on many levels. So I would have to surmise that Google+ is probably not for me. But maybe I just don't see the need for it in my life.

    Parent
    it's (none / 0) (#132)
    by CST on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:36:01 PM EST
    a slightly less creepy version of Facebook, because there is more control for the user.

    Just because someone else posts something of/to me doesn't mean everyone sees it.  It's relatively simple to filter content, something that facebook has been seriously lacking.

    But as for whether or not you "need" it in your life - that's an entirely different question.

    At this point online social networking has become an extension of real social networking among people my age.  It's almost impossible to avoid.

    Parent

    It can be avoided... (none / 0) (#149)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 03:15:08 PM EST
    as long as being asked "why aren't you on facebook?" repeatedly doesn't bother you:)

    Parent
    What CST said (none / 0) (#152)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 05:04:38 PM EST
    ...and I wrote about the pros of Google+ and then my internet went down and my browser crashed, and I'm too lazy to write it all again.

    But if you're interested, you can join anonymously (just use a name that sounds like a real name) and see what it's about.

    One thing I said was that the pics display better than in Facebook.   Link

    Parent

    Anyone else (none / 0) (#120)
    by CST on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:03:53 PM EST
    excited about Harry Potter!?!?!?!

    My grandsons were eagerly (none / 0) (#128)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:15:55 PM EST
    awaiting the release of Part 2. I recently watched Part 1 with my oldest grandson (20). I got lost on the story line more than once since I haven't followed the series since Book 4.

    Parent
    If you like them (none / 0) (#130)
    by CST on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:23:55 PM EST
    I would continue reading the books.

    The later books are significantly more interesting than the earlier ones and written for an older audience.  6 and 7 are probably my favorites, 5 is a bit dark and moody - full of teenage angst.  It's funny, my whole family has read them, including my parents, aunts, uncles and grandmother.  Not a single one of us was in the target demographic when it came out.  Although I know a number of people who stopped half way, since the earlier books are written for a much younger audience it can be hard to get into - but you're definitely missing the best of the bunch.

    The movies are fun, I've gone a number of times with "casual" viewers (haven't read any books) and they seem to enjoy the films.  I thought the most recent film did the best job of staying true to the plot, but that must be easier when you split the book in half.

    Parent

    The movies have great art direction! (none / 0) (#150)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 03:21:01 PM EST
    They are incredible visual experiences. The last movie had an amazing animated story: The Tale of the Three Brothers. The animators these days do such complex and fascinating work.

    Parent
    Me! (none / 0) (#153)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 06:45:01 PM EST
    I am going to try to tag along with  friend a her kids so I don't have to be the wierd lady that goes to Harry Potter movies alone. Not that it ever stopped me before....

    Parent
    Uhhm hello (none / 0) (#121)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:04:42 PM EST
    TPM is reporting the following:

    "We're just getting the first word on this. So the details may be subject to clarification. But Senate Minority Leader has just suggested the GOP will give President Obama his debt limit increase without any spending cuts with a legislative maneuver that in essence allows Republicans to say it's all Obama's fault."


    Details (none / 0) (#123)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:08:33 PM EST
    Link

    "The plan is designed to give President Obama the power to raise the debt limit through the end of his first term on his own, but to force Democrats to take a series of votes on the debt limit vote in the months leading up to the election."

    Smells kind of like a clean bill to me.  Hmm . . .

    Parent

    McConnell (none / 0) (#126)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:12:42 PM EST
    is getting killed over on the conservative blogs, but he has seen the end of the chess match and knew that something more devious was needed.  And make no mistake, it is devious and will put Obama in a tight spot in the future.

    Funny how people assumed that this was about the issues. This is about posturing and always has been.

    Fourth dimensional chess?

    Yes, people, fourth dimensional chess.

    Parent

    It's not a clean bill (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:31:07 PM EST
    Obama wants this out of the way for the 2012 elections.  

    I don't think Obama will accept this solution.

    Parent

    he has said repeatedly (none / 0) (#133)
    by CST on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:38:55 PM EST
    that he will not accept a short term solution.

    That being said, if they send him a clean short-term bill, does he veto it?

    Probably not.

    Will they do it?  Who the eff knows at this point.

    Parent

    I vastly prefer this bill (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:57:23 PM EST
    over any Grand Bargain though.  I hope he signs it.

    Parent
    right there with you (none / 0) (#146)
    by CST on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 03:01:25 PM EST
    that's been my thing from the get-go.

    Hoping that the GOP is just crazy enough to make a deal impossible.

    They seem to be living up to my expectations.

    Parent

    But, most importantly (none / 0) (#148)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 03:09:55 PM EST
    how does this affect how "reasonable" everyone seems?!!

    Parent
    According to Ezra (none / 0) (#138)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:47:35 PM EST
    the GOP may try to move something through the House next week:

    Republicans, I'm told, plan to argue that the Democrats did agree to these spending cuts as part of a final deal, and since they've already made clear that they believe they could support these cuts, it makes no sense to let the debt ceiling collapse just because the two sides can't agree on taxes. To that end, House Republicans are likely to move a bill next week that includes these cuts, perhaps without some of the Medicare savings, and also raises the debt ceiling. Then, if Senate Democrats and the White House refuse to pass the legislation, they figure that they can blame the Democrats for letting the debt ceiling collapse, as Republicans will have already passed legislation that could have lifted it.

    (link)

    I don't know if that's really possible since my understanding was the Tea Party folks don't want to raise the debt ceiling, period.

    Parent

    Lawrence O'Donnell (none / 0) (#147)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 03:04:51 PM EST
    must've made quite an impression on you.  As about 24 hours ago you asked

    "a more modest package for roughly $1.7 trillion to $2.3 trillion in cuts with upwards of $500 billion in revenue increases, including $40 billion to $60 billion from ending tax breaks for corporate jets, yachts and race horses (and, possibly, a proposal to stop taxing hedge fund managers' income as capital gains, thus subjecting it to a higher rate); plus $150 billion to $200 billion in increased revenues from requiring more pension contributions from federal employees, broadcast frequency auctions and getting rid of farm subsidies; and another several hundred billion dollars from pegging inflation to the Consumer Price Index. All of the new revenues would be offset by a permanent or long-term Alternative Minimum Tax fix, a popular bipartisan move, thus satisfying the Grover Norquists of the world. This deal would include modest Medicare cuts, but to providers only, and could also include some short term stimulus such as an employer payroll tax holiday."

    No one's SS is yanked from them.  No ones' medicare is removed.

    If that is offered to avoid disaster and everything playing out gets us to that deal, is that not a perfectly acceptable on from a liberal perspective?

    lots of "issues" in that deal.  If it was obviously all about "posturing" you sure got suckered in.

    Parent

    Here's what I am reading by way of (none / 0) (#137)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:46:24 PM EST
    explanation:

    Apparently McConnell wants to create a process where the Congress allows a debt limit vote in tranches, with three votes over the next year-plus, through the 2012 elections. And it would allow all the votes to come from Democrats, because they would simply be upholding a Presidential veto of something like a resolution of disapproval for increasing the debt limit. This is essentially a license for the Administration to increase the debt limit by themselves, with little constraint except a destined-to-fail 2/3 vote.

    But then there's this weird line about the President being "required to propose offsetting savings" as part of the deal, which could refer to impoundments or a line-item veto or I don't know what. I'm trying to get my hands on the internal memo, although Mitch McConnell doesn't really call or write me on a regular basis. McConnell has scheduled a press conference to discuss the proposal.

    Understand that this is where McConnell's been at the entire time. He isn't really all that concerned with the debt limit, and thinks he has other options to force spending reductions, especially if he can keep taxes low. The 2012 budget is a perfect example. So this is a Rube Goldberg mechanism to achieve McConnell's goals. Basically, his only concern is that Jon Tester and Claire McCaskill and Ben Nelson and Joe Manchin have to vote to increase the debt limit. McConnell has never used the word "filibuster" in relation to the debt limit. He just wants Democrats to carry the load entirely. In other words, he wants what every Senate Minority Leader has wanted on the debt limit since time immemorial: putting the entire responsibility on the majority. Republicans could freely vote against the increase and accuse Democrats of racking up debt. And since the President would be the prime mover in this, it fits with McConnell's other main goal of making Obama a one-term President, since he would have no cover on increasing the debt limit.

    Now, I cannot name for you one single solitary member of Congress who lost his or her seat because they voted to increase the debt limit. So McConnell may consider this tactically brilliant, but Democrats would be fine to call his bluff. What's more, it would keep alive the many charges they could level at Republicans in 2012, like voting to end Medicare. The way I think it's structured, you wouldn't even necessarily need the aforementioned Tester and Nelson and McCaskill and Manchin to vote to uphold the Presidential veto; you'd just need 34 Democrats.

    John Boehner said today that raising the debt limit was "Obama's problem." McConnell's plan would affirm that.

    And here's more since the McConnell presser:

    The plan is designed to give President Obama the power to raise the debt limit through the end of his first term on his own, but to force Democrats to take a series of votes on the debt limit vote in the months leading up to the election [...]

    The plan would require Congress to pass a bill allowing Obama to raise the debt limit on his own contingent on him taking a series of steps: Obama would have to notify Congress of his intent tor raise the debt limit -- a high-sign to Congress that would be subject to an official censure known as a "resolution of disapproval," and which Obama could veto. If he vetoed the resolution, and if Congress sustained the veto, then Obama would also have to outline a series of hypothetical spending cuts he'd make, equal to the amount of new debt authority he gives himself.

    McConnell proposes extending this process in three tranches, to force Obama to request more borrowing authority, and to force debt limit votes in Congress, repeatedly through election season.

    I'm not so sure having this thing hanging over us until the end of 2012 is the kind of "clean" we were looking for.

    Additionally, there are a couple of things to consider:

    (1)  Will Obama accept this deal?  What happens to his credibility if he now walks away from the relentless talk about how the ONLY way we could ever hope to grow the economy is to "get our fiscal house in order and do SOMETHING about reducing the debt and the deficit? Is "nevermind!" going to be an option for him?

    (2)  Will Democrats really - really - be able to run on Republicans being the party that wanted to end Medicare, or will Republicans be able to neutralize that charge by holding Obama up as Exhibit No. 1 in their own argument that he is no friend to the social safety net?  My guess is that Republicans will handle that part of the game with more finesse than Democrats because Obama's going to be hard to defend on the charge that he was ready, willing and able to cut benefits.

    I'm all in favor of a clean bill, but I think it remains to be seen if this gambit by McConnell is going to be accepted and if so, if it will end up being as clean as we want it to be.


    Parent

    I think we will see how (none / 0) (#155)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 06:52:35 PM EST
    little the American people really care about the debt and the deficit. Most won't care if Obama walks away from that talk.

    Not sure medicare is a winning argument for the GOP, no matter what Obama talked about maybe being willing to do. The Ryan plan is the closeset to an official proposal, and the GOP is all over that.

    Parent

    Interesting. (none / 0) (#154)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 06:47:15 PM EST
    Pedning details, that sounds like a win...so I don't know why Boehner would agree to it.

    Parent
    No House Democratic Votes to Raise Medicare Age (none / 0) (#136)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:45:54 PM EST
    Looks like House Democrats have finally come to their senses.

    Huffington Post

    ""There won't be any Democratic votes for that," Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-N.Y.) told The Huffington Post when asked about a bill that raised Medicare's eligibility age."

    The really sad part is the Obama Admin's response.

    "A Democratic official familiar with the discussions sought to defend the proposal shortly after the news broke, explaining that the age would be raised gradually over time (ending in 2036)."

    Yep, 2036 to raise the age.  How brave and courageous of Obama to take 24 years to raise the Medicare age to 67.

    Rep. Ron Paul won't seek reelection (none / 0) (#151)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 04:08:37 PM EST
    Going to put all of his focus on seeking the Republican presidential nomination. link

    Ron Paul v Obama... (none / 0) (#161)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:55:23 PM EST
    I'd be hard pressed not to vote for my first Brand R...never happen though, crazy old coot who doesn't think weed is a crime...not in that business, not Brand R.

    Parent
    I wouldn't vote for Ayn Rand, (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:22:36 PM EST
    and I won't vote for Dr. Paul. You know, other than his stand on MJ, he's anti abortion?

    there's a lot more. I rarely criticize him because I think he sticks to his guns. I won't vote for him because his guns point at a lot of my social infrastructure areas.

    If he becomes a serious candidate in terms of votes, I'll be out there working against him.

    Parent

    Respect your position... (none / 0) (#167)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 07:40:36 AM EST
    since I tend to run glass half empty on pols, or glass bone dry, and assume to be screwed & unserved & criminalized either way, I am willing to roll them bones on the Ron Paul monkeywrench.  But I hear you, I have no illusions about the guy, though he's got his strong points too.

    But its all fantasy, he could never win a GOP primary with the whole of the party establishment working against him...him and Kuchinich are the Rodney Dangerfields of their respective parties...they must be serious self-loathers to run in them circles.

    Parent