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Friday Morning Open Thread

Krugman:

There’s an old quotation, attributed to various people, that always comes to mind when I look at public policy: “You do not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed.” Now that lack of wisdom is on full display, as policy elites on both sides of the Atlantic bungle the response to economic trauma, ignoring all the lessons of history. And the Lesser Depression goes on.

Ain't that the truth.

Open Thread.

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    It is a real wonder (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 07:59:45 AM EST
    how society functions at all.

    "ignoring all the lessons of history" (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:23:42 AM EST
    Seems to be the major theme of the 21st Century. Whether it's Afghanistan, Iraq, the Constitution or the economy.

    Evidently today's leaders feel they are just too smart to pay any attention to the past.

    It (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by lentinel on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:50:32 AM EST
    is deliberate.

    As in "1984" where history is shredded or rewritten by the government to suit a current agenda.

    No one was ever brought to account for telling us that we were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin - a clear fabrication to suit a political-military agenda. The Vietnam war. A war of choice.
    50,000 dead Americans. No one held to account.

    The history of the Vietnam war has been distilled into an "honor their sacrifice" sound bite.

    It opened the door for an eerily similar frenzy with Bush getting a feverish Senate to allow him to start a war in Iraq. Not only did he infer that they had attacked us on 9/11, but they were about to nuke us. No one held to account. Good ol' Obama wants to "move on" (ie: protect their sorry arses.)

    By now, we're used to it.
    We're numb.

    Libya - we're protecting civilians. Uh huh. Ok. WTF.

    What's on TV? Anything good?

    Parent

    Well, it looked promising (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:08:14 AM EST
    that we would have a president who would be interested in the lessons of the past when we heard upon his election and inaugural that he was reading the Goodwin book on Lincoln and even the Alter book on FDR's First Hundred Days.  

    Then still later the usually reliable and talented moptop from Liverpool, Sir Paul McCartney, assured us that, finally we had a president who knew what a library is.  

    And maybe that's all true, but maybe it's also true that Obama doesn't seem to have read much about FDR beyond those first few months of 1933, and even then he managed to get the history badly wrong.

    I would assign him, for some overdue but essential mid-summer reading, one of the several available bios from the Library of Congress about Roosevelt (either the basic offering by Jean Smith or, better, the relevant volume from Kenneth Davis that covers the economic situation in detail) and what happened to him in 1937 when he began obsessing about cutting the deficit during a time of high unemployment.  I'm not only surprised he seems not to have read in this area, but also that no one in the press corps has recently asked him whether he has, and if so why he seems heck bent on repeating the same unforced errors as FDR.

    By contrast, Kennedy, during the Missile Crisis, had just read Barbara Tuchman's Guns of August, about the major powers blundering into the Great War, and was determined not to repeat those mistakes (he ordered all his top aides to read the book).  Reading about JFK, I get the impression of someone very much on top of things, even ahead of his expert advisers at times, all while having a solid understanding of the relevant past, or the economic situation, or whatever (see also Lincoln).  I don't have that same confidence with Obama.

    Parent

    Having read (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:22:18 PM EST
    much about JFK, I think he read history and political philosophy voraciously - starting with Greek and Roman history on up.  It was rumored that he had a reading speed that broke records with Evelyn Woods, and he seemed to believe that understanding history was essential to decision-making in the present.

    In addition, JFK really cared to prevent needless deaths, as the experience of death and suffering was something he witnessed every day while serving in the pacific.  His family, for whatever else you can say, also had an abiding concern for the less fortunate.  In today's culture -- political and otherwise -- of how much can I benefit financially from any situation, this concern has not taken a back seat, but been dropped from the national conversation -- with the exception of Bernie Sanders, it seems.

    Parent

    Good points -- (none / 0) (#91)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:44:36 PM EST
    on the reading, it was deep in areas like history, political philosophy and economics, and otherwise he was just reading and learning -- books, numerous daily papers, magazines -- a habit he picked up in his youth from those long periods when he was bedridden.  He and TR were probably the best read presidents of the 20th C, with Clinton not far behind probably.

    Parent
    I beg to differ (none / 0) (#133)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:19:40 PM EST
    I think JFK's handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis kinda put him in a class by himself.  The sophistication of the analysis, the refusal to bow to pressure of the Joint Chiefs, etc. I also believe that his call to think what you can do for your country had lots of power and sent a message we've been wanting for a long time now.  

    Parent
    Not sure what I (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:48:39 PM EST
    wrote didn't adequately appreciate JFK's abilities.  I merely commented fairly narrowly on the reading/learning/applying aspect, valuing him very highly in that one category as I noted a couple of others for consideration.  

    No question that during the Missile Crisis he sort of put all his various intellectual, managerial and diplomatic skills together to put him among the very best of our presidents, and certainly his successful resolution of that one civilization-threatening crisis should be enough, by itself, to place him in the pantheon of greats.  And if you want to argue that it should place him above the others -- Lincoln saved merely a Union and FDR saved Democracy, while Kennedy saved the world -- I might well agree.

    Certainly he was the most inspiring president of my lifetime and for more than just leader-worshipping, superficial personal reasons but for standing up for the right causes and for the reasons you cite dealing with concerning ourselves with other-directed activity.  FDR, Carter, Clinton and Obama are other smart Dems but they didn't inspire millions to public service, and for the right reasons, nearly as much as JFK did.  

    Parent

    Mea culpa (none / 0) (#166)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 06:42:36 PM EST
    I think I misread something in your earlier post about JFK - sorry.  I don't think about whether he was greater than other greats -- it's nice to think we had a group of memorable leaders.  I also think at one time, Clinton inspired a lot of people.  I think his work at the Clinton Foundation is very inspiring and has accomplished a lot of positive, tangible things.  

    Parent
    JFK (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:16:53 PM EST
    was an actual intellectual.  Not just a smart guy but an intellectual.  We don't get those very often.

    Parent
    We still do not know, of course (none / 0) (#45)
    by Towanda on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:38:12 AM EST
    which courses he took at Occidental and at Columbia, nor do we know the grades that he got, even if he did study any U.S. history.

    U.S. history no longer is a standard requirement at most campuses, i.e., for most students.

    The result is all too evident, isn't it?

    Parent

    It would be interesting (none / 0) (#54)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:00:37 AM EST
    to have some of the details of his college years fleshed out (and I wasn't aware of the extent to which they haven't) but some of those facts, if disclosed, might be misleading.  And I'm more concerned about what he's doing with his intellectual abilities right now, in terms of studying and taking lessons from the past and exercising his supposed intellectual curiosity.

    Too bad I can't be in the audience today, right now, at College Park, MD for O's town hall, to ask him the obvious question about the parallels with FDR and 1937 and maybe also why he seems so intent on cutting into Roosevelt's ND.  

    (btw, I'm all for beefing up the US History requirements in college, though before that I think we need basic national standards in the HS years that local authorities cannot undermine)

    Parent

    Stop the presses! (none / 0) (#56)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:04:52 AM EST
    An older guy at the Town Hall just asked O about FDR and the Depression, and Obama actually answered in a way that reflected a basic knowledge of what FDR did in 1937 -- O even specifically mentioned that year.  Will have to look at the transcript to comment further on his answer.  

    Parent
    Answers re 1937 probably would be (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Towanda on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:54:25 AM EST
    about what FDR did "wrong" re the economy.

    I would like to see signs that Obama knows what FDR did well re job creation in preceding years.

    Parent

    Let's see if he mentions FDR's (none / 0) (#64)
    by observed on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:39:48 AM EST
    "mistake" of 1933 again (a right wing lie he probably learned from the Chicagoans).

    Parent
    O (none / 0) (#66)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:48:46 AM EST
    sees the present economic crisis as an "investment" problem. Just watch how he answered the question about "gentrification" from another woman in the audience.
    I think O is not too concerned about rising inequalities in income at this time, he is more concerned about investments fleeing the country (a problem that FDR never had). I do not entirely agree with the President in this regard, however I can understand the arguments that he is making.


    Parent
    Michael Hudson says Obama believes 30% reduction (none / 0) (#192)
    by jawbone on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:50:41 AM EST
    in wages (note: term used for compensation of the littel people) is needed for the US to be competitive.

    That's part of what he's trying to accomplish by having no JOBS programs.

    LINK

    Parent

    mmc - Right on the money (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:33:09 PM EST
    A big part of it.  A big part is the continuous struggle of society's two forces and this time losing the struggle will, IMO, finish off western society.

    John Kenneth Galbraith said that each generation has to re-learn the lessons; that we're too stupid to learn from the past.

    As you said, successive generations always seem to believe they have all the answers; that the past was quaint and `it's' different now and we're so much wiser.  It's telling that the Graham-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 was titled the "Financial Services Modernization Act."

    Galbraith was right.  It was Galbraith who coined the phrase "conventional wisdom."

    The enemy of the conventional wisdom is not ideas but the march of events.


    Parent

    Not happy with Obama at Kos (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:50:37 AM EST
    They're pretty disillusioned with the proposed deal (and Obama in general).  The latest proposal would slash spending to the tune of @ $3 trillion, with only the prospect of $800 billion in potential "triggered" revenue increases in the future.  As Ezra points out, this is only about 25% of the revenue that Dems would get if he simply did nothing and let the Bush tax cuts expire.  It would also include a trigger that could result in the repeal of the individual mandate of the ACA.

    Ugghhhh ...

    Baaawaaaa (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:40:28 AM EST
    Obama is even willing to torch his own HCR for a "deal".

    Parent
    ACA has another problem on the rise (none / 0) (#37)
    by BTAL on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:00:40 AM EST
    Healthcare law could leave families with high insurance costs

    A major "gotcha" could be on the near horizon.

    Parent

    The policy (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:36:34 AM EST
    did nothing to quell healthcare costs. They were going up before and they will continue to rise. Families ALREADY have exorbitant health care costs in this country. It will continue whether we have the ACA or not. We're just going to have more and more people uninsured because the insurance companies have decided that paying 24 million dollar bonuses are more important than putting out an affordable product. They're probably all going to go under at some point and time. They don't have a sustainable business model.

    Parent
    As MO Blue, et al., have been saying (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Towanda on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:40:45 AM EST
    from the start.

    In part, that is because it is not a health care law.

    Parent

    Exactly, Towanda (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Zorba on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:34:57 PM EST
    As I (and many others) have been saying, this is not, and never was, about affordable health care.  This is a direct, guaranteed, coerced subsidy, paid for by the citizens (with a penalty if you do not purchase health insurance), to the health insurance industry.  Health insurance does not guarantee health care.  It is in the insurance industry's financial self-interest to keep premiums up and pay-outs for care down.  If we had actual health care reform, we would have single-payer, or at the least, an affordable, widely available public option.

    Parent
    The Gang of Six offered to cut CLASS part of HCR- (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by jawbone on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:55:35 AM EST
    That's the long term care insurance, which was supposed to save money for Medicaid.

    Now, without subsidies, most people cannot afford long term care insurance.

    But, Obama likes the Gang of Six stuff.

    I'm not sure Obama cares whether his bill is implements fully or not, as long as the private insurance companies are protected by the mandate.

    According to something I read, the House crazies were demanding Obama give up the mandate part, which he refused to do.

    But cuts to Medicaid already, waivers, drop CLASS? All good with Obama.

    Parent

    Other than his re-election (none / 0) (#103)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:35:23 PM EST
    nothing is more important to Obama than skewering Social Security and Medicare

    Parent
    Oh, please (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by BDB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:02:51 AM EST
    Has Krugman never read the Shock Doctrine?  I'd say our leaders know exactly what they're doing.  Since "the Deal" late last year, they will have ensured the continuation of tax cuts on the very wealthy while paying for them with cuts to social programs.  The latter is something Obama and his Wall Street donors have long wanted to do (the former is, too, IMO).  By creating this "crisis", they have the perfect opportunity to do it and to do it with little opposition (where, oh where, is the "sh!tstorm" that Atrios predicted?) from the left.  In fact, guys like Krugman will end up praising a deal which guts social programs (or at least accept it and tell the rest of us to accept it) because it avoided disaster.  And, of course, in any such telling, Obama may at best be portrayed as weak (as opposed to one of the prime insigators of the disastrous policy) and unable to stop the unhinged Tea Partiers (which is why he must be re-elected despite having just led the effort to gut social security and medicare).

    Seriously, if you're the Dem leadership and you want to co-opt the left and get them to STFU as you gut entitlement programs, could you have done any better a job?  Obama will have delivered his voters on shredding the safety net.  The very thing he was elected to do.  And what will be his punishment?  Certainly career "progressives" like Krugman will not suggest that he be opposed for the nomination or, heaven forbid, be voted against in 2012.  Nope.  They'll just shake their heads at his lack of wisdom and claim he wanted to do the right thing, it's just he was the only adult in the room and so had to protect us from the reckless Tea Party.  

    At this point, guys like Krugman are either stupid or deeply disengenuous.  We're here because this is where our elites - with Obama at the forefront - have led us and they have very clear reasons for wanting us here - it's a way to transfer yet more wealth from us to them.  Frankly, they're not the ones lacking "wisdom".

    And now what seems to be driving (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:24:34 AM EST
    the whole thing are the ratings agencies - in particular, Standard & Poor's - which, after over a year of all this debt and deficit talk, and most recently, these various deals being floated, are now saying that they will downgrade the debt even if the ceiling is raised, unless spending cuts on the order of the Obama Grand Bargain are included in the deal:

    ...The credit ratings agency Standard & Poor's has indicated that it has so lost faith in Washington's ability to tackle big problems--because of the difficulty in solving such a simple one as how to avoid default--that simply raising the debt limit by August 2 won't be enough to spare the U.S. from what would be an earth-shaking downgrade of its credit rating.

    Instead, the agency insists that lawmakers must agree to a $4 trillion package of deficit reduction, at least, either as part of the ceiling deal or soon thereafter. That puts major pressure on Obama and Congress to cut a big deficit deal, or at least agree to a framework that markets find to be credible, possibly on the order of what the Senate "Gang of Six" is proposing.

    "Even if they were unconnected, S&P and the ratings agencies have taken this opportunity to tie (major deficit reduction and raising the debt limit) together," said Adam Ozimek, an economist at Econsult in Philadelphia who co-writes the popular Modeled Behavior blog on economics. "Congress has allowed them to tie it together, and the reason is because you have these people who are willing to play this game of chicken, and they may be willing to drive the car over the cliff."

    It seems to me that this is a perfect example of a self-fulfilling prophecy - and the killer is that it's been engineered by someone who carries the (D) behind his name.  There can be no doubt, can there, that these events will complete the transformation of the Democratic brand, and dash any hope of realizing the dream of bringing liberal policies that are functional, fair, inclusive of the many who are on or getting closer to the margins, and improve the quality of people's lives across the income and class spectrum.

    It's a 2 x 4 to the back of the head, followed by a full-body beat-down; I don't know how we recover from this, I really don't.


    Parent

    This is a ridiculous (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by masslib on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:34:41 AM EST
    statement by S and P.  They are trying to influence policy.  It's despicable.  The only reason to downgrade would be if the US walked away from its obligations.  To suggest that a wealthy country like the US needs to attack the deficit today is ludicrous.  

    Parent
    all the more despicable (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:50:40 PM EST
    since it was Standard & Poors and other ratings agencies that went along with rating crap CDOs AAA.

    Parent
    They're just following Obama's lead, though, (none / 0) (#34)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:53:25 AM EST
    aren't they?  Hasn't Obama been beating this drum in one form or another through almost his entire presidency?

    I agree that the ratings agencies have little or no credibility - not after the way they assisted in the financial meltdown - but I think you have to see the endgame here, and that is what a grand bargain will mean for Wall Street, the banks and corporate bottom lines.  These agencies charge the bond issues for the ratings they provide - gee, no conflict there - so I don't expect them to do anything but whatever they need to to ensure we keep reading things like, "markets up to record levels," "corporate profits at record highs."

    And since Obama also seems to be owned by Big Money, this is a very symbiotic relationship - for them, not us.

    There's a lot of "ludicrous" around these days, along with more than enough "insanity," not to mention "greed."

    And it isn't coming from or being generated by average people like us, but by those who stand to gain the most by moving in this direction.

    Parent

    And don't forget (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by BDB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:58:45 AM EST
    it was this Administration's lack of any enforcement action and the lack of any increased oversight coming out of the financial crisis that put these agencies in the position to now do this stuff.  

    Parent
    Hindsight (none / 0) (#38)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:01:22 AM EST
    This was a drum to beat when Bush took us to war with a tax cut. It should have been fought when the war costs were done as supplimental spending bills rather than the budget.

    Where were all these economic geniuses in Congress then?

    Parent

    The rating agencies, like S and P, (none / 0) (#40)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:14:01 AM EST
    have more likely been "asked" in the way of these things, to "influence policy."  As with the Catholic bishops, who if they had any decency, would not speak on moral issues for at least 100 years, so, too, should the ratings agencies keep their heads down for a similar period, in view of their pliability in "Triple A" ratings on all manner of Wall St. engineered mortgages.

    Parent
    Do you read Ian Welsh (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by BDB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:48:52 AM EST
    If you haven't seen it, may I recommend this.

    And while I had little use for Matt Stoller as a blogger, the post-Hill staffer Stoller seems to have learned some very hard lessons, particularly about Obama, and I'd suggest listening to this interview with Susie Madrak (also available as a podcast on itunes).  In it, Stoller basically says the thing worth focusing on isn't elections, it's how to deal with the world we now have (which is not the one most of us grew up in or at least believe we grew up in).

    Parent

    Short Matt Stroller (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:05:47 AM EST
    We have already lost the war. The meat cleaver is coming for all of us.

    It is nice that he has had a change of heart. It is a shame that he twisted himself into a pretzel and spent a lot of band width promoting the very person who is the main driver of these policies and dismissed the concerns of others.  

    Parent

    You know, (none / 0) (#142)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:37:02 PM EST
    that's really strange. I don't see how Obama ever got elected. I haven't met a soul this past year who voted for him. hmm

    Parent
    Well some people were at Woodstock (none / 0) (#160)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 04:32:37 PM EST
    and others just said they were at Woodstock.

    I was not at Woodstock and I did not vote for Obama in 2008. If you have a lot of time to waste, you could probably verify that fact since I stated my choice not to vote for Obama or McCain often enough in 2008.

    Parent

    Thanks for the (none / 0) (#84)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:31:55 PM EST
    recommendation.  

    Parent
    And we should trust the ratings agencies bcz they (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by jawbone on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 12:29:14 PM EST
    gave AAA ratings to junk...at the behest of the Wall Street Gang Banksters.

    I wonder if the banksters are telling them to start downgrading US Treasuries*. Maybe they have some big plays on a US default -- and plan to beat the market by, well, controlling it.

    Would they do that? Why, yes, we've seen they would!

    As Cantor is betting with some hedge fund he's in.  And he has a role in causing problems by not allowing a debt ceiling increase.  

    Boy oh boy, do these Corporatists know how to play the global finance game or what?  

    And, if they stumble or even go EPIC FAIL, we have to bail them out since they're Too Big To Fail!

    All part of lemon socialism: Gains are privatized, losses are socialized.

    Obama wants to be "transformational," and this is a game changer, eh?

    Parent

    Obama set up this CRISIS by not pushing for debt (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by jawbone on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:57:56 AM EST
    ceiling increse as part of his December giveaway to the Repubs.

    At the time, I wrote that he was saving that and the budget for ways to declare a crisis which would mean cuts to SS/MM (SocSec, Medicare, Medicaid).

    Now, I'm positive he's doing that.

    Parent

    I don't mean to insult you, (none / 0) (#26)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:14:59 AM EST
     but do you even know who Krugman is? You should maybe even read his columns before making such uninformed attacks.

    Nobody's perfect, but your remarks aren't even in the same time zone.

    Parent

    I'm well aware of who Krugman is (none / 0) (#29)
    by BDB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:26:56 AM EST
    He did a lot of good work when Bush was president in opposing the worst of that Administration and it's appreciated.  However, that doesn't give him a free pass to basically accept the policies he opposed under Bush just because they are offered by a President with a (D) after his name.  I would also note that he hasn't always been some great liberal economist.  He has pushed some neoliberal policies in his time and voiced support for the appointment of Bernanke, among otehrs.  

    He's basically as "left" as one can be and still be "serious".  There's something to say for that, but that doesn't mean it's anywhere good enough, especially given the current economic crisis.  And he's too smart to pull off this continued confusion act over why Obama and the DC elite do what they do.

    It's not that I never agree with the guy, but he is fallible, you know.

    Parent

    Of course he's fallible, (none / 0) (#95)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:56:28 PM EST
     but I don't see what your beef with him is now. I don't know of any leading economist who's trashed Obama's economic policies more than Paul. He was the loudest voice out there back in '08 beseeching the Administration to do a bigger stimulus. He warned and warned that what they were doing would lead to the awful situation we have today.

    "Krugman Trashes Geithner's Bank Plan...And Obama"

    "This plan will produce big gains for banks that didn't actually need any help; it will, however, do little to reassure the public about banks that are seriously undercapitalized. And I fear that when the plan fails, as it almost surely will, the administration will have shot its bolt: it won't be able to come back to Congress for a plan that might actually work.

    What an awful mess."

    We need all the friends we can get, and Krugman, while not perfect, is as good a friend as we've had over the years.

    Parent

    At times he has criticized Obama (none / 0) (#98)
    by BDB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:16:33 PM EST
    and at others he's made excuses for him.  Krugman may be on some issues to the left, but he's still part of the establishment and has the blind spots that being part of the establishment brings.  Most recently how he's willing to constantly point out the lousy policies of the Obama Administration, but then he (1) puts the sole blame on the GOP and/or (2) casts Obama's deliberate policy choices as somehow "weakness" or a lack of "wisdom".

    And it is important to take him to task and critique him because he is the furthest left one can be and be seen as "serious" by the establishment.  That he isn't all that left (he's written articles praising low wages) and will move right simply to give political cover to the Ds (see his endorsement of healthcare "reform") is a problem when he (unfortunately) is the one who most stakes out the "left" economic position.  

    Parent

    I'm sorry (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:26:00 PM EST
    but there's no conversation here.

    I would refute each point you made, but it would serve no useful purpose.

    We'll just agree to disagree.

    Parent

    You should have realized this (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:16:35 PM EST
    from the start.

    Parent
    now you tell me (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:22:53 PM EST
    thanks buddy

    Parent
    Gracefully done (none / 0) (#196)
    by lambert on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 11:37:11 AM EST
    Lose every point you make, then bow out.

    Parent
    Krugman is looking ridiculous (none / 0) (#90)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:42:39 PM EST
    at this point.  The WH is completely conservative.  The right wing of the Repubs and the Dems want to collapse wages in this country.  I believe the current target is a 30% collapse in wages and living standards.  Why doesn't Krugman acknowledge that this is the policy of the DLC?

    Krugman keeps whinging along while disregarding that this is the plan.  It's beyond annoying.  Someone needs to slap that guy silly.  People need to understand that the constitution has been co-opted by those freaks on the SC and there was a class war and we lost.  He has a duty to explain to people what is happening while their lives are purposely being flushed.

    Parent

    besides flailing like a Bob 'n head (none / 0) (#92)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:49:18 PM EST
    do you have something like a fact, maybe?

    or, is ad hominem your contribution for today?

    Parent

    The country has changed (none / 0) (#123)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:41:43 PM EST
    Uh, do you even know who's on the court?  Hint, they are whackadoodle conservatives who always take the side of corporations.  They are running an oligarchy.

    It is a fact that it is a conservative goal to collapse wages.  How could anyone not know that.  Jeez.  It must be hidden behind their expressed love of unions and pensions?

    A DLCer stated the 30% in an interview.  I don't remember who the latest person was giving that target and I don't care to look it up for you.  Other corporatist Dems have discussed the joys nad benefits of a wage and lifestyle collapse but I had only heard 20%.  I was surprised they are ramping up that number.

    Parent

    Wait a minute (none / 0) (#139)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:33:11 PM EST
    "Uh, do you even know who's on the court?"

    wait a minute, from here, yup, it looks like billie jean king & LeBron

    a little one on one

    "(you) don't care to look it up for (me)?"

    C'mon, really?, puleeeeze? I'm gonna cry; you want that?

    Parent

    Ah yes, "ad hominem".... (none / 0) (#197)
    by lambert on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 11:41:19 AM EST
    The only put down the Obama Fans of 2008 had in their arsenal, so they used it. All the time. Good times....

    * * *

    This:


    People need to understand that the constitution has been co-opted by those freaks on the SC and there was a class war and we lost.  He has a duty to explain to people what is happening while their lives are purposely being flushed.

    Contrasts the systemic role Krugman could be playing with what he's doing. That's not an ad hominem attack. Just because a personal name is mentioned doesn't necessarily make for an ad hominem attack. If I were to ask: "Or didn't they teach you that in Obama Fan Camp?" that would be an ad hominem attack... Or maybe not...


    Parent
    Has Krugman written about (none / 0) (#96)
    by observed on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:02:07 PM EST
    the "Shock Doctrine" hypothesis?


    Parent
    People who claim Obama is brilliant... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by masslib on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:13:42 AM EST
    when Obama says (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by observed on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:57:32 AM EST
    "Go big", I feel the fierce urgency of now, and my eyes tear as I envision all our yesterdays blurring into a parade of rue filled tomorrows, dizzying  towards bleak candle snuff.


    Parent
    They must ... but they won't (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:06:53 AM EST
    Looking forward to Lawrence O'Donnell's explanation for his latest, horribly wrong assessment as to WORM and another brilliant-11th-dimensional-chess-negotiator strategy.

    I won't be holding my breath.

    Parent

    That's a remarkably Republican op-ed (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Towanda on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:43:42 AM EST
    so the authorship revealed at the end reads more like a punchline.

    Parent
    My favorite 'Far Side' (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:55:46 AM EST
    I've had it clipped out so long it is yellow and breaks apart a little more every time I move to a new cubicle.

    Dinosaur is at a podium in a theater, addressing other dinos. He says:

    "The picture's pretty bleak, gentlemen....The world's climates are changing, the mammals are taking over, and we all have a brain about the size of a walnut. "

    Here it is so you can print a fresh copy (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by BTAL on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:23:07 AM EST
    Love It (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:55:55 AM EST
    Found a copy and put it here.

    Parent
    Loved it then, (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Zorba on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:38:35 PM EST
    Still love it.  Thanks for the reminder (and thanks to BTAL and ScottW714 for the links).

    Parent
    How far Dems have strayed (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by sneazle on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:22:02 AM EST
    Hi all. I've been lurking here since the '08 primaries and have found this site to be a haven of rational thought and informed commentary. Thanks for saving my sanity.

    Lately it's been making me crazy whenever I hear remarks from prominent Dems, bloggers, or the POTUS himself ridiculing those of us who have been expecting action on policies outlined in the '08 Democratic Party Platform. It seems like we're being characterized as out of touch, far left Hippies clinging to some obscure commie screed.

    I thought this was the "hope and change" he was talking about:  civil rights, economy and job creation, education without the privitization scams,environment,fair elections, AFFORDABLE health care, open government, retirement SECURITY,science and tech,voting rights, immigration reform. (taken straight from the Dem platform text)

    And this:  "Democrats stand for the idea that WEALTH and STATUS should not be an ENTITLEMENT TO RULE.  (ironic, no?)

    One more:  Democrats stand for an abiding faith in the judgment of hard working American families and a commitment to helping the excluded, the disenfranchised, and the poor strengthen our nation by earning themselves a piece of the American Dream. (makes me want to cry.)

    welcome (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by kmblue on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:23:49 PM EST
    sneazle.

    Parent
    Sen Bernie Sanders (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:34:01 AM EST
    on the radio just now said something I don't think I've heard him say before -- that Dems and even Obama would benefit from someone stepping up to apply pressure on him from the left in the upcoming primaries.  Except that of course he is declining to throw his own hat into the ring.

    I agree -- not enough pressure on him right now in a public way from the liberal forces out there who are unhappy with O's seeming political drift to the Right.

    Problem is of course that once we eliminate Sanders and Kucinich, who is left on the left to challenge him in a viable way?

    Tavis Smiley?  

    Naomi Wolf?

    Cenk Uygar?

    The party (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:00:37 PM EST
    is exploding in a rash of identity politics. No one is going to primary him due to the fact that he's an African American. Or least, that's what I continually here.

    So forget about primarying him and just let him lose in '12 and start rebuilding the party away from Obama's dismal failed policies.

    Parent

    Rebuild the party? (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:12:42 PM EST
    What makes you think that only the choices of people like you matter and not Democrats like me.
    Given the attitudes that you display in this blog, I am sure that you will be disappointed and howling once again in 2016.
    Let Cuomo, Warner, Schweitzer and others rock your world! I will be smiling.

    Parent
    Cuomo? (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by BDB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:15:08 PM EST
    I hope you mean Mario and not that worthless, union-busting son of his.  Seriously, Andrew Cuomo is doing to working people and unions in NY the things the GOP could only dream of.

    Parent
    And Mark Warner is just as bad (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by BDB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:22:07 PM EST
    maybe worse.  He's about as corporate a D as possible.  Of course, given your list, perhaps that's what you mean about your kind of Democrat.

    Parent
    That's what primaries are for (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:36:53 PM EST
    I never (none / 0) (#86)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:35:28 PM EST
    said anything about who matters or doesn't but right now the party is in dire straits because of Obama and his record.

    I really don't care about Cuomo, Warner or Schweitzer but the irony is you seem to be to the left of me yet you're happy with Obama's conservative policy decisions. Go figure.

    One thing Cuomo seems to have is the leadership gene whether you agree with his policies or not and that's something that Obama is sorely lacking.

    Parent

    You're a Democrat? (none / 0) (#110)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:56:28 PM EST
    can't help it BTD, like a fat, ripe Melon (none / 0) (#150)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:48:26 PM EST
    "What makes you think that only the choices of people like you matter and not Democrats like me."

    I think you answered your own question.

    and,".....others rock your world! I will be smiling."

    shhh, won't tell mommie; grown ups call it Nocturnal Emission

     

    Parent

    Project much... (none / 0) (#199)
    by lambert on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 11:45:33 AM EST
    "Shooter"?

    Parent
    No one is going to primary him (none / 0) (#72)
    by lilburro on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:07:04 PM EST
    because there are no candidates.  You can't put TV personalities up as candidates for President.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:30:20 PM EST
    well, we have a TV personality for President right now and that isn't working out so I'm definitely not wanting another one of those to run.

    Oh, I know nobody is going to step up to the plate to primary Obama so here we are.

    Parent

    We could put one up if (none / 0) (#94)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:54:49 PM EST
    we had one -- a fairly good pre-existing national profile would be very helpful up against an incumbent with a massive war chest.  

    Unfortunately, the libs on tv are few, most need the paycheck (Tavis, Ed), and even if they didn't need the money one or two may not be sufficiently upset at Obama at this point (Rachel, Rev Al).

    Of course, I hear Cenk Uygar has a little extra free time right now.

    And Naomi Wolf strikes me as the kind of principled, feisty person who could potentially step up to help save our democracy (she's certainly written much in this area).

    Also, Bill Moyers has some free time these days.

    Parent

    A really bright guy (none / 0) (#145)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:41:34 PM EST
    Alec Baldwin

    don't laugh, the public may just be fed up with politicians

    Parent

    I thought of him too (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:56:28 PM EST
    (after composing my last post here).  National figure, has spoken out before so isn't entirely known for just tv and Hollywood.  Could self-fund a run.

    And I've already personally vetted him, you might say (local supermarket, with his daughter in tow), and he was kind enough not to yell at me when I almost recklessly ran into him with my cart (I was in a hurry that day).  So, contrary to the one family matter reported on, he did show good anger management on that one unscripted occasion in the supermarket aisle.

    Young enough but not too young.  Plus Warren Beatty is getting on in years and has always teased us in the past before pulling out, and Ben Affleck has been awol of late.

    Parent

    I could get behind Baldwin. (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:04:54 PM EST
    He has the temperament for the position. No, I'm not talking about the phone calls. He's serious, he's intelligent, and he knows how to fight. Too many brothers to NOT know.

    I think he's an extremely principled person as well. Outcome would matter to him.

    Brodie, excellent choice. Grass-roots movement, here I come.

    Parent

    Sorry! NYShooter, excellent (none / 0) (#178)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:05:36 PM EST
    thinking here!

    Parent
    I can hear the first press conference now (none / 0) (#179)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:09:16 PM EST
    He walks out. "Put. The Coffee. Down. Coffee is for reporters. You are a bunch of hacks."

    Parent
    Well he definitely wouldn't be the (none / 0) (#185)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 08:55:44 AM EST
    "media darling" going down that road.

    Of course, I am beginning to think that the standard rule of thumb needs to be "Do not vote for the "media darling" because anyone the corporations back is not going to be good for the average citizen.

    Everyone would just have to use the write in option if they wanted something other than a corporate centric president.  

    Parent

    Alec Baldwin is just one (none / 0) (#202)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 12:20:52 PM EST
    of many, many people outside of the current political class who would make a fine candidate for high office. (Note, I said "candidate," as he would naturally have to go through a rigorous vetting process)

    Baldwin's name popped out to me for several reasons. First, I saw him in an interview (may have been on Charlie Rose) and was quite impressed with his command of the issues, his obvious, personal feelings regarding those issues, and his refreshingly honest response to the question, "would you consider running for some office?" He basically said he is thinking about it more and more.

    Another reason for my endorsement of Baldwin: (I know I'm going to bollix up my attempt to explain, but let me try) Whenever we see someone we're not that familiar with being interviewed for the first time  (by us) our minds automatically go into their critical, skeptical, analytical modes. We listen intently, trying to find that hidden motive, that "real" agenda, or that ideological capture.

    With Baldwin, there was none of that. I truly love it when someone a lot smarter than me shows by his/her conversation that they are, in fact, a lot smarter than me. (o.k. maybe not a "lot," but just, smarter. lol) Baldwin did that. As an analogy, let me try this. Steve Carlton was my favorite baseball pitcher, not so much for his physical abilities throwing the ball, but by his analytical approach to pitching. In practice, if he asked his catcher, "where was that last pitch?" and the catcher said, "just off the outside corner," Carlton would say something like, "no, no, I know it was just off the outside corner. Was it 1/8 in. or 1/16 in. off? Was it snapping up, or down in that last nanosecond, did it curl up & away, or down & out?"........you get the idea

    That was the way the interview with Alec went; you couldn't throw anything past him without him catching it. The question would come at him as a missile, and Baldwin would send it back as a fully deployed MIRV.

    And that's just one guy (person); I'm sure there are many, many more.

    Parent

    America's Last Hack President (none / 0) (#198)
    by lambert on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 11:44:23 AM EST
    Well, we can dream....

    * * *

    Seriously, though, I think you're right. The race card worked really well for the Obama campaign in 2008, so there's no reason it they won't play it for all it's worth again. Especially since it's all they've got going, since the steam load of hopey change can only be dumped once.

    Parent

    Political Suicide (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:15:56 PM EST
    If Obama, (being a Democrat), signs the bill to gut the "New Deal" he may as well pack his bags and head off into the sunset. He'll be dead politically. If he runs again, he'll do nothing but drag the party down with him.

    As arrogant as GWB was, he wouldn't touch it even when he had the chance.

    It's scary to think that GWB was smarter than Obama!

    Parent

    Kucinich? (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by suzieg on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:25:11 PM EST
    Please, a plane ride on Air Force One and he changes his tune!

    Parent
    Obama left a pony's head... (none / 0) (#200)
    by lambert on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 11:47:14 AM EST
    ... in Kucinich's bed. It's the only explanation.

    Parent
    Dick Gephart. (none / 0) (#106)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:45:13 PM EST
    I don't care that he's currently an advisor to Goldman Sachs. My big issue with him would be his right-to-life stance.

    He used to belong to the DLC, but moved away because he's pro labor.

    Gephart/Smiley, or Smiley/ Gephart, or Cornell West in the mix.

    Parent

    Terrible stories out of Oslo this morning (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:48:24 AM EST
    Where have you been hiding? (none / 0) (#67)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:50:45 AM EST
    "They" (5.00 / 8) (#78)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:20:41 PM EST
    Took away internet access on my project.  We convinced the supervisor to give it back to us since we are down to 2 people.

    Missed you guys!

    Parent

    The Very Rich (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:09:43 PM EST
    Have finally managed to get pretty much every political party on board with their wet-dream policies.

    Huge profits, low taxes, cheap labor, cheap interest, cheap assets, and a massive military to ensure their wealth and their wealth generators are safe and secure.

    What more could a kazillionaire want, more of course, why stop when you are on a roll.  

    Next up, those pesky regulations that eat into their profits.  The next Republican President will no doubt deliver once the Democratic one trims the budget enough to make eliminating regulatory departments an easy sell.

    And finally (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:59:13 PM EST
    directly looting the Social Security Trust Fund.  Now they're on the road to not paying it back.

    Parent
    When history books are written, (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by observed on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:57:38 PM EST
    I wonder if Alan Greenspan will be identified as a key villain. His role in the assault on SS has been vital.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:55:57 PM EST
    Alan Greenspan was a child (albeit a crooked child) put into a critical post.

    His complete neglect of his responsibility to protect the American people should bring the ire of historians.

    Obama, I feel, will also catch considerable hell.  An irresponsible egomaniac, something of a slick charlatan.

    Parent

    He is an incredibly slick fat cat---an (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by observed on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 04:04:14 PM EST
    apt subject for a Thomas Nast caricature.  

    Parent
    History Books ? (none / 0) (#163)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 05:38:59 PM EST
    Who in the hell do you think is going to print them, Ben Franklin, or the same clowns printing Texas science books ?

    My grand kids will be asking me about the glorious 10's and 20's they heard about while we huddle around a fire in the Geithner Camp.  With empty bellies and missing organs because the Bankers conviced Obama harvesting and selling organs from debtors would jump start the economy.  He disagreed and a compromised was reached, organ harvesting would only be allowed if the tax code was abolished.

    Parent

    A bloodless "business men's" coup (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by observed on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:22:12 PM EST
    is what we are seeing.

    So far bloodless (none / 0) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:38:01 PM EST
    Who knows if it can the distance it will take to recover in this fashion and remain bloodless?

    Parent
    In THIS coup, though, (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:46:20 PM EST
    Smedley Butler was extroardianily renditioned.

    Parent
    Taking a look at the humanitarian (none / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:06:47 PM EST
    action of oil drenched Libya right now.  I'm inclined to agree with you.  They can't rendition all of us though.  I'm watching Shock Doctrine today, not a good day to do that :)

    Parent
    (Gulp) Posted my first diary (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:12:54 PM EST
    a few moments ago... it's in the diary section (I always think of the line from Heartbreak Ridge, when SGM Chuzu gives the keys to his truck to Gunny Highway. Highway says, "Thanks. Where is it?"
    Chuzu replies, it's out there parked at a sign that says Sergeant Major. You can't miss it."

    I wonder (none / 0) (#1)
    by lentinel on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 07:15:31 AM EST
    if we would be going through this mess - looking at cuts in programs most needed by the American people - if these people in Washington had let the Bush tax cuts expire and the wars end.

    I don't (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 07:17:43 AM EST
    know but it certainly might be worth trying.

    Parent
    Saving (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by lentinel on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:33:31 AM EST
    5 or 6 billion a week which we're spending for the wars...
    About 1.25 trillion bucks down le toilette...

    Bush tax cuts extended - about another trillion bucks (conservatively speaking).

    Couldn't hoit.

    Parent

    Bush Tax Cuts..... (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:02:56 AM EST
    3.7 trillion over ten years

    Parent
    He said that was wrong (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 07:44:24 AM EST
    He didn't say that.

    I think you're awake, but not fully (none / 0) (#6)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 07:56:21 AM EST
    understanding what Norquist said - or - what he is saying today, via an op-ed in the NYT.

    First, he explains the pledge:

    THE Taxpayer Protection Pledge has received increased attention as the Aug. 2 deadline for raising the debt ceiling approaches. My organization, Americans for Tax Reform, created the pledge in 1986 as a simple, written commitment by a candidate or elected official that he or she will oppose, and vote against, tax increases. Over the years many candidates and elected officials have signed the pledge, including 236 current members of the House of Representatives and 41 current senators.

    Then, he explains why allowing any tax rate to expire is not a breach of the pledge:

    Finally, there has been much confusion -- some of it my fault -- over whether the ending of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts or the A.M.T. "patches," scheduled for Dec. 31, 2012, should count as a tax hike. If they are ended, the government will take in nearly $4 trillion more over the next decade than if they remain.

    My position, and the implications of the pledge regarding such "temporary" tax cuts, is clear. If there were no vote in Congress and taxes rose automatically, then no politicians would have voted for higher taxes and no elected official would have broken his or her pledge.

    So, it's not that the expiration of the Bush - now Obama - tax rates wouldn't be a tax hike, but that the pledge is about opposing tax increases and not voting to raise taxes - if there is no vote, and opposition is expressed to the result of such an expiration, the pledge has been upheld, even if the result is a tax increase.

    I'm still waiting for Norquist to explain how spending cuts and tax cuts - or "reform" as they like to call it - create jobs; it might be a while, so I don't think I will hold my breath.

    If nothing is done to extend the rates, (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:13:55 AM EST
    they will expire - no one will have to vote to make that happen.

    The pledge is about opposing tax increases and voting against them - that's why, in the case of any of these stupid deals that are being floated, Republicans who believe we do need to raise the debt ceiling would be breaking their pledge if tax increases are included in legislation that would do.

    On the GOP side, it's jaw-droppingly stupid that no one is willing to say, "Phuck the Pledge," and on the Democratic side, that there are too few members of Congress who are willing to say "Phuck this phony crisis and the horse it rode in on."

    It would serve them all right if they get a giant electoral "phuck you" in November, 2012.

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#15)
    by lentinel on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:37:07 AM EST
    hope you're right.

    Of course it makes sense...

    So - I can't but have a feeling of pessimism mixed with my optimism.

    Parent

    If anyone here thinks what (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:28:07 AM EST
    Norquist said would give any Repub politician cover...or if any Repub politician thinks that...

    It doesn't. People want lower taxes and less spending.

    Parent

    Hey, I want higher capital gains rates (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:27:39 AM EST
    I want increased corporate taxes that reflect the gigantic take that the finance sector represents in this country, and I want increased spending on programs that aid those in genuine need and which build a sustainable and better future.

    But you know me, I'm wacko like that.

    Stay cool, my old TLer.

    Parent

    And you probably represent 10% (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:34:42 AM EST
    or less of what people want.

    Not that that makes you a bad person...

    ;-)

    Been down to Bay 101 yet??

    Parent

    10%?!?! (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:02:19 PM EST
    In reality, that's just BS.  The majority of people consistently acknowledge tax increases will be necessary to cut the deficit and support raising taxes on the wealthy.

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:32:13 PM EST
    Your class warfare comments are risible.

    No one wants tax increases on themselves.

    It's:

    "Don't tax you

    Don't tax me

    Tax that fellow behind the tree."

    That's from a Demo Congressman from TX... House Majority Leader... can't remember his name.

    Parent

    Not the pont, Jim (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:07:28 PM EST
    You claimed that "People want lower taxes and less spending" and that only "10%" of people want what Dadler was advocating (higher capital gains rates and corporate taxes - i.e. more taxes on the wealthy).  Problem is, your figure was just made up - pulled out of a deep, dark hole somewhere.

    In reality, polls have consistently shown that people realize we need to raise taxes to reduce the deficit.  The fact that they want the rich to pay a larger share really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who isn't just making stuff up as they go along.

    Parent

    That quote on taxes is (none / 0) (#124)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:43:32 PM EST
    attributed to Senator Russell B. Long (D. LA)--son of Huey.  Long was a friend to business giving them tax breaks with the philosophy that capitalism needs capital.  However, he also saw the need for taxes to support needed programs, as unpleasant as that prospect might be.

    Parent
    Class Warfare (none / 0) (#137)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:31:36 PM EST
    this time with an armed hoi poloi would be of great benefit to the republic.  Might even save it.

    Parent
    What 10%? (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:10:17 PM EST
    Of Conservative whack jobs.

    Parent
    Not yet (none / 0) (#62)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:27:50 AM EST
    Been outta the game. There's always Artichoke Joe's down the street.  Can't get past the name though.  

    Parent
    WSOP lineup for (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:50:50 PM EST
    next year, the "old and not-so-old TalkLefters:" Jim, jeff, dadler, kdog.

    Jim, keep us informed about the satellites, please. Don't they start in November, or something?

    I'm guessing Jeralyn would give us caps and shirts to wear... or even if we have to buy them, why not?


    Parent

    One going on now in Tunica at the Goldstrike (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:26:04 PM EST
    Win the main event and you get a ticket to the big dance.

    Satelittes twice daily for a lower cost entry into the main event.

    Just a thought. Maybe Yman can come along and instruct us.... ;-)

    Parent

    I could instruct you in many things, Jim (none / 0) (#141)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:34:14 PM EST
    Gambling is not one of them.

    Parent
    Try it I think you will like it (none / 0) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:28:52 PM EST
    Haven't been there since mid 2000's but it was always a friendly place with some good mid level limit action and a nice restaurant... There's also a great Japanese restaurant down the hill. Can't remember the name.

    Parent
    Ah So (none / 0) (#130)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:11:10 PM EST
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:38:43 AM EST
    but the first thing that they want cut is military spending. That has the most support yet there doesn't seem to be any in this bill does there? The majority of people in the country are sick of dumping trillion dollars down that hole in the middle east called Iraq.

    Parent
    The remaining 90% (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:50:52 AM EST
    The remaining 90% are opposed to subsidies for the oil industry. They're opposed to cuts in S.S. or Medicare. They also agree that the wealthy should be taxed more.

    And finally that they want these cuts but not any that affect them!

    I cringe when I hear DC talk tax cuts. I've never seen one that hasn't ended up costing me more.

    Parent

    Everybody is opposed to the oil (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:34:28 PM EST
    depletion allowance until the figure out the price of gasoline is going up.

    And tax cuts cost you money?? You're kidding, right?

    Parent

    Am I that dense? (none / 0) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:37:07 PM EST
    Donald, are you so insecure that you must always insult and slur?

    I mean, really. You are demonstrating a real problem in relating to other people engaged in casual conversation and have also shown a anger management issue.

    And I would hope a big time staff person with tons of experience in a state legislature would not take a statement out of context. I was obviously asking a specific individual a specific question yet you launch into a semi-rant about how services must be paid for.

    Like wow. Did you learn that in middle school???

    How about this as a question.

    Are the charges for the services in-line with the value received? And even better, do the majority of the people paying for the services, even want them?

    Ever thought about that?

    Bye Youall


    Parent

    The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (none / 0) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:36:40 PM EST
    are foreign policy issues.

    Do people want to give the radical Muslims a clear field of play??

    Frame it that way and see what the answers are.

    Parent

    Why not just ask people ... (none / 0) (#126)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:01:09 PM EST
    ... if they want their daughters forced to wear burkas while being forced into marriage and raped by radical Muslim men at age 12?

    I bet that would "improve" your results by a few more points.

    Parent

    So you don't see (none / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:18:11 PM EST
    radical Muslims as a threat?

    Okaey dokeyyyyyyyy

    I'd better not ask anyone from Norway, either...just to be fair, eh??????

    A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at C.N.A., a research institute that studies terrorism. The message said the attack was a response to Norwegian forces' presence in Afghanistan and to unspecified insults to the Prophet Muhammad.

    NYTimes

    Parent

    At some point I have to wonder ... (none / 0) (#136)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:29:48 PM EST
    ... whether it goes beyond a reading comprehension issue into purposely making up silly, diversionary, straw arguments because you can't address the obvious point.

    Never mind.

    The answer is pretty obvious.

    Parent

    The answer is that when (none / 0) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:42:49 PM EST
    I make a comment you are always there.

    Me and my shadow....writing down the Internet..

    Parent

    See? You did it again. (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:51:27 PM EST
    You do realize it's a little transparent, though ... right?

    BTW - Not always, Jim ... just when you're posting things that are factually incorrect, silly, illogical, etc. ...

    Oh, wait ...

    ... never mind.

    Parent

    The point is that I make my point (none / 0) (#157)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 04:15:06 PM EST
    That I may not do your bidding is something you need to learn to live with.

    Parent
    No you dodge the issue ... (none / 0) (#161)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 04:40:59 PM EST
    ... when you're confronted with facts.

    Guess you'll just have to learn to live with being called out.

    Parent

    If your goal in life (none / 0) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 05:25:46 PM EST
    is to imagine some grand dispute between us....

    be my guest.

    lol

    Parent

    "Goal in life" ..... pfffftttttt .... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 06:09:50 PM EST
    Jim, I no more "imagine some grand dispute between us" than I would some have some "grand dispute" with neighbor's beagle.

    Parent
    Ah, so now you compare (none / 0) (#168)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:12:22 PM EST
    me to a dog.

    What style, what grace you exhibit. What's next?

    A cursing from your Grace?

    I mean when us mere mortals dare to laugh at you the blood does boil, eh?

    lol

    Parent

    I'm so sorry ... (none / 0) (#171)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:32:22 PM EST
    I guess i forgot to include an "LOL!" or a ;-) after my comment - that's the Jim-approved method of insults, right?

    Anyway, I truly didn't mean to offend ...

    ... the dog.

    BTW -

    I mean when us mere mortals dare to laugh at you the blood does boil, eh?

    Please, Jim ... don't flatter yourself.

    Parent

    Thamk you, your grace (none / 0) (#188)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:17:06 AM EST
    May you always be blessed with someone you can take out your personal frustrations on and have someone you can feel superior of around to keep you happy and somewhat in control of your emotions.

    Why? Because in the real world they aren't acceptable.

    Parent

    Anytime, Jim (none / 0) (#191)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:42:52 AM EST
    Easy on those meds, though ...

    Parent
    They (none / 0) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:32:30 PM EST
    just don't rule our mind and people wearing hats don't make us want to run and hide like conservatives. I call them bed wetting conservatives. Dangle a picture of any Muslim in front of a conservative and they wet their pants. Are you afraid of any Irish person that you come near? Are you afraid of Gulf War Veterans with crew cuts?

    Parent
    Oh please (none / 0) (#144)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:40:31 PM EST
    A rational person has to take the impact of radical Islam on western culture/countries.

    Doing so makes no one a "bed wetter."

    And the Irish were focused on one government, not anybody who insulted Paddy.

    Parent

    So what (none / 0) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:48:01 PM EST
    about our own home grown terrorists? If you're goign to wet the bed when seeing a Muslim how about Eric Rudolph? Timothy McVey? Rudolph was a Christian fundamentalist who was a terrorist.

    You don't understand that the same movement is afoot in this country within the GOP that has the same goals as the fundamentalist Muslims yet no fear there?

    Parent

    I am not going to "we the bed" (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 04:19:55 PM EST
    and if you must make an insulting statement as a lead in to your argument it is obviously weak.

    Home grown terrorists? I assume you are speaking of non-radical Muslim home grown terrorists. And of such I know of none who are supporters of/by international terror organizations such as Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, et al.

    As for the Repubs, let me know when they start flying planes into tall buildings.

    Parent

    TImothy (none / 0) (#165)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 06:11:54 PM EST
    McVey was a Republican and a guy who killed a lot of people. You don't really understand what terrorism is it seems. So as long as they don't fly planes into buildings they're okay? What you're saying completely ignores part of the problem.

    This is why conservatives have such crazy foreign policy. They're all over the place. We have to get rid of the Muslims because they're all terrorists and then in the next sentence say that we have to stay in the middle east because we have to democratize their countries. So in essence, conservatives are saying that we owe democracy to a bunch of terrorists.

    Parent

    And you don't seem to understand (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:30:43 PM EST
    that your home grown non-radical Muslim terrorists do not have the money and resources available that the radical Muslims terrorists have.

    And actually I was never all that strong on democratization of the ME. Although that pipe dream seems to be alive and well in the Obama administration.

    And you keep on forgetting that I am a Social Liberal, not a Conservative, so you should really make your arguments based on that.

    Parent

    Sure. Let's ask the people of Norway, ... (none / 0) (#184)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 08:20:01 AM EST
    ... Jim.  I'm sure they'd be happy to help me correct your false information (yet again), since your own link clearly points out that the suspect is a Christian fundamentalist.

    But thanks for making it even easier, Jim ...

    Hey, following your logic, I guess we should be taking measures to avoid giving the winger, Christian fundamentalists a "clear field of play" ...

    ... right?

    Heh.

    Parent

    Please don't misquote me (none / 0) (#189)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:35:18 AM EST
    especially when what I wrote is just a few inches up the screen. I mean, your attack is exposed in a heartbeat. This is what I wrote:

    A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at C.N.A., a research institute that studies terrorism. The message said the attack was a response to Norwegian forces' presence in Afghanistan and to unspecified insults to the Prophet Muhammad.
    NYTimes

    We will just have to wait and see what his motives were. As in the IRS attacker, Rep Gifford's attacker and Oklahoma City there appears to be no organization associated with his actions.

    Just another solitary nutcase acting out his deranged fantasy? Well, that is what they told us about Fort Hood.

    Parent

    What?!? (none / 0) (#190)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:41:39 AM EST
    Are you actually trying to claim that you weren'tsuggesting that muslim extremists were responsible for this attack?

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

    Seriously, Jim?

    Read what you wrote immediately before your (imaginary) "quote" from the NY Times (which doesn't actually appear in the NY Times article, BTW):

    So you don't see radical Muslims as a threat?

    Okaey dokeyyyyyyyy

    I'd better not ask anyone from Norway, either...just to be fair, eh??????

    Too funny.

    Parent

    wow Jim (none / 0) (#149)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:48:14 PM EST
    you're really out of touch.  Most Americans don't give a sh!t about Afghanistan or Iraq and the specter of Muslims running wild on their own turf is of no interest.

    The idea that if we disengage Muslims will cross the ocean to "get us" is laughably ludicrous.

    There is now widespread opinion that military spending should be cut and the people are right about this one.  Eight hundred military installations in foreign lands is not necessary and not a defensible expenditure.

    Parent

    That the public has a short memory (none / 0) (#159)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 04:24:26 PM EST
    is not disputed by me.

    That we will be forcefully reminded, sooner or later, is a sad fact.

    As far as being attacked by radical Muslims....

    Have you been asleep since 1979??? Took all of 2001 off and when trekking in the wilds of New Guinea?

    As for bringing troops from such places as Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc... No problem.

    Parent

    And getting the hell (none / 0) (#167)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 06:54:05 PM EST
    out of the middle east would extinguish the flame.  If we left the middle east would Muslim goblins follow us home?

    Do you sleep with a night light, check under your bed for terrorists?

    Parent

    Well, they folllowed us home in (none / 0) (#169)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:23:07 PM EST
    1991 and in 2001... and they tried to follow us to LAX and NYC among other places.

    Do you walk around with your wallet extended outward just asking to be robbed???

    And have we forgotten what Osama told Peter Arnett of CNN in March 1997? Do you really think that his replacements have changed their world view?

    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ?

    BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

    Link

    So your answer appears to be, just let the radical Muslims do what they want. Keep feeding the bear hoping that he will never be hungry enough to get to you? Have I overstated??

    If so, what would you do? I mean besides nothing?

    Parent

    So (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 05:01:55 AM EST
    if you believe what OBL is saying since you're quoting him, then it's about our meddling in Arab countries that is creating terrorism. Not all Arab countries are on the peninsula. We've been meddling in their business for over 50 years now. Trying to control the world isn't going to make us safer.

    And the guy from Norway was a conservative Christian who hated muslims and he killed a bunch of people.

    Parent

    Not exactly (none / 0) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:13:48 AM EST
    Osama said this:

    So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula,.....

    The above clearly says that one of the motives of Osama was our presence in the Arabian peninsula which is part of the ME. His anger also extended to our helping Israel, Pakistan and Egypt.

    So, if you want to excuse terrorism on our presence, be my guest.

    The question then becomes, did we do any good? Did our opposition to the French and English when Egypt declared it owned the Suez Canal help?

    Did our entry into Kosovo where Muslims were being killed help?

    Did our supplying weapons to the Taliban help them in their war with the Soviets?

    Did our stopping Iraq in its drive through Kuwait to Saudi Arabia help?

    Did our billions in foreign aid help in Pakistan and Egypt?

    If we believe Osama, obviously not. He continued with.

    ....but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

    So, what would be your solution?

    If a Muslim group wants to establish Sharia law in certain parts of a US city, will you agree?

    If Hamas/Syria/Hezbollah/PLO/Muslim Brotherhood/Egypt, et al invade Israel, will you support Israel?

    Will you be willing to set by and allow Iran to develop a nuclear weapon?

    Have we made mistakes? Yes.

    But the genie was let out of the bottle by Carter in 1979 and saying we should not have done what we have done is just wishful thinking. 9/11 and all the other terrorist acts have happened.

    Norway? I quoted a website self identified with jihad that had claimed responsibility. That appears to be false.

    Is the killer Muslim? Apparently not. Does the killer hate Muslims as you write? If so he displayed a strange logic in attacking the seat of government and then a government meeting and killing non-Muslims.

    Is he "Right-wing Christian?" Remembering that the IRS attacker and Rep Gifford's attacker were first id'd as "right wing" and only later found to be insane with no real political connections I will wait.

    Parent

    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 11:24:28 AM EST
    You don't understand terrorism only ninnyism. If you want to constantly live in fear and let someone with a hat scare you be my guest.

    We've been hearing for YEARS from conservatives that Iran is going to attack Israel but it hasn't happened yet. The fact of the matter is that conservative foreign policy has been a failure. Trying to "control the world" never will work and never has worked and always ends up destroying the ones who are trying to control it. So if you're willing to destroy the country for the illusion of some fantasy then leave me out of it.

    Good grief? Sharia Law? The fundamentalists here in the US, the people you vote for, are trying to do just that. The laws that your Republican friends are writing here in GA are pretty much the same laws that are on the books in places like Saudi Arabia but as long as they haven't yet regulated women's clothing then I guess you're okay with it? PS I'm for separation of church and state and if the conservative idiots would quit trying to fuse the two, then MUSLIM laws would have zero chance of having ANY power in this country. But the GOP wants similar laws but just thinks that they are okay as long as they are labeled "Christian" and not "Muslim"

    You're full of what ifs? What if this or what if that? Well, get back to me when there are some facts behind all that and not "what if ninnyism".

    And the facts are that the guy in Sweden was a conservative. The majority of terrorism these days is being done by conservatives. You have to remember that sharia law has a lot in common with social conservatives.

    Parent

    People want lower taxes (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by me only on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 01:08:51 PM EST
    MORE spending, LESS debt, low inflation and a unicorn that craps golden eggs.

    Parent
    I've always searched for the goose (none / 0) (#148)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:48:03 PM EST
    everyone knows "them unicorns were hiding, playing silly games, kicking and splashing while the rain was falling" and missed the ark.

    Parent
    Humor or not...most astute comment on subject (none / 0) (#155)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:58:55 PM EST
    Those aren't the same thing (none / 0) (#182)
    by sj on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 12:45:52 AM EST
    I want my taxes raised.  Moreover I want your taxes raise if you are not at poverty level.  And I really, really want corporate taxes raised.  

    That bit probably puts me in the minority, but I doubt it's anything like a 10%.  

    But spending?  I think people want jobs and if it takes spending to get them I think most people approve of the spending.  Spending to benefit Wall Street?  Not so much.

    Parent

    If the Bush, now Obama, tax cuts (none / 0) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:46:34 AM EST
    were allowed to expire in 2012, Norquist's equivocation on expiration not necessarily being a tax increase, may not break his pledge, but it would break Obama's.  Obama is committed to not increasing taxes on the poorer citizens (up to $200,000 a year for single, $250,000 joint return), so Obama would only be able to let some (above those levels) expire.  That might generate about $800 billion rather than about $ 4 trillion over ten years. Although, Obama, apparently, is considering increasing premiums/co-pays for Medicare and decreasing benefits for social security beneficiaries with a much different definition of rich and poor.  

    Parent
    Obama is more than willing to increase (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:53:50 AM EST
    taxes on poorer citizens (up to $200,000 a year for single, $250,000 joint return), he just wants to do it in a way that disguises what he is actually doing. The Obama tax cuts increased taxes for many people making $20,000 annually. According to Rep. DeFazio, the chained cpi will result in a tax increase to those making $20,000 a year of 14%.  

    Parent
    True, the application of definitions (none / 0) (#55)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:04:17 AM EST
    is situational--sometimes poor is rich, and at other times, rich is poor.   Which ever serves the rich, better.

    Parent
    He would have to get legislation (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:07:09 PM EST
    to avoid increases on middle and lower incomes.

    The time to do that was when Democrats still held the House.  Wasn't done.

    Parent

    Not sure I understand your comment, (none / 0) (#121)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 02:34:58 PM EST
    but my thought is that all Bush tax cuts should have been allowed to expire in Dec 2010 and that, while difficult, could have been cushioned in other ways.  Better than where we now are, and where we are likely to go.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:06:39 PM EST
    the Deal was a catastrophe.

    Parent
    My view then, as now, (none / 0) (#93)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:51:35 PM EST
    is that all the Bush tax cuts should have been allowed to expire in December 2010.  This return to the tax rates of the Clinton years, would have generated $4 trillion over ten years, about the same as that to be "saved" from the president's failed Cat Food Commission and its draconian measures.  And, the Gang of Five plus the return of Coburn, to bring it to six, follows closely the failed work of Bowles/Simpson.  Although so called "civil" Coburn is quoted as saying that the only ones hurt by the cuts will be those "sucking off the programs."

    The expiration of all the Bush tax cuts was said by some to be a problem for the still troubled economy, but that could have been transitioned with the temporary payroll tax holiday that was passed, and, if needed, some tax cuts for some at about this time. In any event, those continued Bush tax cuts will wind up as not so much a bargain.  The new revenues would have not only avoided this "crisis" but allowed for the treasured market confidence, through governmental stability.

    And, as Norquist is now saying, sort of, is the increase in taxes paid would not be a tax increase.  Similarly, the Obama's gift, unexpected by the Republicans, of raising the estate tax exemption ($5 million single, double for couples) and the tax rate set at 35%, and, the increase in the lifetime gifting and making it portable, could have been scaled back to yield, yet, more in revenues, without a  new tax increase.

    Parent

    You're (none / 0) (#135)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:24:19 PM EST
    making a statement that's much like a strawman.  You're saying people on this site would have griped about raising the lower 4 rates.

    What makes you think people on this site would have griped about raising everyone's taxes?

    It would be accurate to say that opinion on this site varied.

    Our tax rates up and down the line are at near historic lows and when capital gains and the flat dividend taxes are considered the low rates are even more ridiculous.

    It's not possible to govern a huge complex nation that still has delusions about being the world's policeman on low taxes.


    Parent

    This is a blog (none / 0) (#173)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:52:59 PM EST
    where people feel that to connect with each other they have to get outraged about everything the President does.
    Peer pressure!

    Parent
    Emerson (none / 0) (#181)
    by christinep on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 12:02:28 AM EST
    'Seem to recall this injunction: Whosoever would be a man <let's add "woman" too> would be a
    non-conformist.

    Parent
    This is a blog ... (none / 0) (#186)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 08:56:16 AM EST
    ... where people use facts and logic to criticize the President when he does something wrong.

    But if you think that's "everything he does", ... we can go with that.

    Parent

    Bad prediction from a friend (none / 0) (#8)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:02:05 AM EST
    My Gawd (none / 0) (#22)
    by me only on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:06:00 AM EST
    you are reading Krugman this morning?????

    You have lost your mind.

    Supposedly (none / 0) (#27)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:19:36 AM EST
    According to the Miami Herald, it will be announced by the White House this afternoon that DADT will end in 60 days.

    Yes, an important step (none / 0) (#59)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:16:26 AM EST
    and a big tip of the hat to President Obama.  However, I do believe that the president's good words and intentions were moved ahead by continuous and organized pressure and court cases.  It is ready for the Friday news dump, but bringing this to (almost) an end as a whimper is fine with me---too high of a profile these days may induce the wingers to demand its scuttling as a part of the grand bargain. And then who knows what could happen.

    Parent
    Explosions and gun firings in Norway (none / 0) (#85)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:33:48 PM EST
    Coverage may drop (none / 0) (#174)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 09:20:05 PM EST
    US media will drop coverage if it's true this was a political act by a right winger.  Newshoggers has some info... the translation is a little confusing.  He had extreme views, didn't like Arabs, it looks like the youth group may have supported the Palestinians in a two state solution, he may have had his own garden business which gave him access to fertilizer.

    Parent
    A homegrown (none / 0) (#180)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:17:17 PM EST
    that describes himself as a conservative christian? Say it ain't so.

    If reports are true, his double strike has at least 86 victims now.

    Parent

    Where is Salo? (none / 0) (#89)
    by observed on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 12:39:10 PM EST
    His commentary on the current political scene would be illuminating, I'm sure.

    Fee cards for SS (none / 0) (#140)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 03:33:40 PM EST
    Priceless!!! They've scammed people on the local and state level, now it's federal.  Watch bankster campaign contributions to see which vulture is going to try and scoop a national contract.  Nickle and diming elderly and disabled.   It's the new Dem way.

    Corrente

    Mr Reasonable is getting hyper political (none / 0) (#172)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 08:48:21 PM EST
    because of lack of traction. He may have also started seeing Mr Perry in his mirror and figured out that his "Mr Reasonable" act won't cut it in GOP primary politics.

    link

    link

    Loveed, where are you?

    Can't Make This Stuff Up (none / 0) (#175)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:25:03 PM EST
    Former Florida State Sen. Alex Diaz de la Portilla (R) is now a wanted man in Florida because he failed to obey a judge's order that he turn over one of two Weimaraner dogs to his ex-wife in a messy divorce case.

    A defiant Diaz de la Portilla, reached by cellphone text message late Friday, said he wouldn't turn himself in because Leon Circuit Judge Frank E. Sheffield issued an unlawful order.


    And because (none / 0) (#176)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 10:33:26 PM EST
    I'm sure legal minds rarely manage to get a contempt order over a dog, the Order of Contempt and Warrant for Commitment is HERE

    Parent
    Sadly but predictably (none / 0) (#201)
    by CoralGables on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 12:19:00 PM EST
    Troubled British singer Amy Winehouse has been found dead in her London home, the Daily Mail, the BBC and Sky News are reporting.