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The Third Act

Atrios:

No I don't know precisely how the play ends, but here in Act II various players are stamping their feet and making demands, followed by the ultimate capitulation for the 'good of the country.'

And Obama will have "saved Social Security." Write it down. 2 trillion in cuts for raising the debt ceiling. Great negotiating there. Unless, Kevin Drum is right:

I think it's now finally time to stop pretending that Obama has miscalculated, or blundered, or been out-negotiated, or somehow forced into a bad position. Rather, everything he's done for at least the past six months is consistent with the idea that he considers the long-term deficit a problem, he wants to address it, and he views the debt ceiling talks as an ideal opportunity to do so with bipartisan cover. Obama isn't doing this because he has to. He's doing it because he wants to.

Fair enough. So can we now agree that Obama is NOT the great progressive President ever?

Speaking for me only

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    I rarely advocate violence on a blog. (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 04:48:05 PM EST
    IF I did, Kevin Drum would be beaten across the kidneys until he peed blood for weeks.

    Mind you, I'm not advocating.

    Flourish? (5.00 / 9) (#2)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 04:49:02 PM EST
    Please.  Americans vote for Democrats to protect social security and Medicare from even so-called modest cuts.  NO ONE votes on deficit reduction.  Indeed, when the deficit was actually reduced by Clinton, most Americans were not even aware of it.  This is the most absurd argument I have ever heard.  Actually, it reminds me of the argument Obama made to congressional Democrats that they would win the 2010 election cycle if they passed his health plan.  Not.  Buying.  It.  

    Oh, but Drum's post does (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 04:50:57 PM EST
    shine a light on how team Obama plans to use this politically.  It'll be all about how he took on the liberals and reformed those nasty ole entitlement programs.  Gag.

    Americablog just posted a link to how.... (none / 0) (#24)
    by magster on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 06:13:19 PM EST
    ... Monica Lewinsky saved Social Security under Clinton's watch with Larry Summers and Erskine Bowles mapping out the same course that Obama is on now.

    Parent
    Um, what? (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:44:19 PM EST
    That's really, truly stupid.  There just isn't any evidence that Clinton tried to cut SS.  Here, on the other hand, we have Obama openly trying to cut ss.  Where in hells name does Clinton fit in.  But it's always a great diversion...the Bill Clinton tried it too card.

    Parent
    Would expect nothing less .... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 06:54:45 AM EST
    ... from Americablog.

    Parent
    Class Warfare has been declared... (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 04:53:03 PM EST
    it's all of us versus the top 2-5 percent.

    Until we figure it out, we are in trouble.

    Class matters. Race matters. Gender matters. Age matters.

    Just not to the elites.

    The third act is that he loses in 2012 (5.00 / 6) (#5)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 04:53:26 PM EST
    That's what we're looking at now.

    I didn't think so a month ago.

    Y'know, (5.00 / 0) (#6)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 04:56:58 PM EST
    when I was a low-assed private it didn't matter too much to me who was chairman of the joint chiefs, TRADOC, or anything else.

    Does it matter now who's pres, given the record? I can't see an explanation of this. ABG, try. I may just laugh at you, but try.

    Parent

    Oh, it surely does (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 04:59:06 PM EST
    I'm looking at the balance of power on the Supreme Court.

    Otherwise . . . it's a harder case to make.

    Parent

    with the extra-judicial (none / 0) (#8)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:00:12 PM EST
    powers employed, I don't even know...

    Parent
    Geez. I wish I was drunk. then I could (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:00:57 PM EST
    offer some explanation for this horrible black mood.

    Parent
    Move over, jeff (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Zorba on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:34:59 PM EST
    Because I'm in a horrible black mood, too.  And we're not the only ones.

    Parent
    So.. set 'em up Joe, (none / 0) (#53)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 09:02:01 PM EST
    I've got a little story I think you should know...
    Make it one for my baby and

    one for the road.

    Parent

    It's hatred. It's the only thing that lasts. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:53:15 PM EST
    Barfly.

    Clip 1

    Clip 2

    Parent

    Have not seen ABG on this thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by smott on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 06:51:04 PM EST
    I don't think ABG (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by itscookin on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:32:11 PM EST
    will come out of the woodwork until the deal is sealed. Then we'll hear that whatever deal is struck is the best that Obama could do because of the mean, nasty Republicans, that Bush left him this mess, and that in any event, Hillary Clinton couldn't have done any better. SSDD. But Riverdaughter (Goldberry) did write a righteous rant. This has become very personal for her.

    Parent
    with all due respect, and (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:39:46 PM EST
    not to disagree at all with negative assessments of Obama, but -  Riverdaughter is an idiot

    speaking for me only

    Parent

    But her being an idiot in no way (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 09:04:23 PM EST
    reflects on ABG's Obamalove.

    Statistician here. Measure one at a time. Little correlation between them (provided one's an idiot...can't go that far, not gonna read the linkie.)

    Parent

    my remark about Riverdaughter (none / 0) (#70)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 12:41:24 AM EST
    being an idiot was just a gratuitous remark about Riverdaughter being an idiot - no real connection with AngryGuy - just a quick observation that Riverdaughter is an idiot

    because it is my opinion that Riverdaughter is an idiot

    now somebody ask me what i really think


    Parent

    What do you really think? (none / 0) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jul 09, 2011 at 01:39:41 PM EST
    Riverdaughter (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by sas on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 09:26:41 AM EST
    is no idiot.  She's a smart woman and she is spot on with her viewpoint.  It is HER reality, not yours perhaps, but meaningful to many others.

    Parent
    Smott (none / 0) (#36)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:36:33 PM EST
    I . . . Well she said . . . But what the . . . How in the f . . .

    Words escape me.

    All I can come up with is

    No.

    Nonononononononononono.

    And.

    No.

    Not my most eloquent post, but yeah.

    He'll no.

    Parent

    Hummm, PUMA bait (none / 0) (#37)
    by BTAL on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:37:07 PM EST
    Interesting tactic.

    Parent
    2012...I agree (none / 0) (#57)
    by Coral on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 09:38:26 PM EST
    The Supreme Court argument has been working for me, despite my increasing disillusionment slowly turning to anger and despair.

    But this bellyflop on Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid (which is a pillar of his health insurance reform) has turned me.

    And I'm very well informed. So many people I know just won't turn out to vote. Others will vote 3rd party. And others will vote GOP in anger over the Social Security and Medicare issue and over jobs.

    Where I live, public employees have had wages and hours cut back, many have lost their jobs. Many nearing retirement age have lost great amounts of home equity and equity in retirement accounts.

    Obama is going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to win in 2012, even against the crazies who have seized control of the GOP.

    Parent

    The Supreme Court (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 10:21:10 PM EST
    is the only card they have to play. Ain't nothin' else in this stacked deck, my friend.

    Parent
    Keeping in mind, of course, (none / 0) (#73)
    by oldpro on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 02:17:49 AM EST
    the Biden/Kennedy show who brought us Clarence Thomas.  There's no card in the deck that trumps that one.  And no black president with Biden on the ticket can ever make uo for it, either.

    Parent
    Well Kevin Drum is definitely right (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:10:09 PM EST
    about this part:

    Obama isn't doing this because he has to. He's doing it because he wants to.

    He campaigned on cutting Social Security and cut it he will all under the guise of "fixing" it. David Brooks reported back in March 2009

    These paragraphs were the result of the anonymity Brooks gave to the Obama White House (emphasis in original):

        Besides, the long-range debt is what matters, and on this subject President Obama is hawkish.

        He is extremely committed to entitlement reform and is plotting politically feasible ways to reduce Social Security as well as health spending. link



    Yes, President Obama (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 06:15:15 PM EST
    is doing it because he wants to.   Kevin Drum is officiating at the fig removal ceremonies.  Obama apologists, take note: new talking points on the way.

    Parent
    I have been saying this (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Zorba on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:48:37 PM EST
    for, it seems like, forever.  He wants to.  We should all have been warned when he praised Reagan and called him transformative.

    Parent
    OK (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Warren Terrer on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:15:56 PM EST
    Now post this over at dailykos.

    Here's a good video posted at Kos of Obama (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by magster on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:41:25 PM EST
    making promises in 2008 about social security that he's about to break.

    Parent
    Progressive Dems (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by bocajeff on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:20:20 PM EST
    Even though it would be merely symbolic, the fact that NOT ONE progressive dem will challenge Obama in the primaries show that there is no back bone there. They can introduce ideas and push an agenda. But they will not. Bernie Sanders? Russ Feingold? Anyone?

    Feingold is out of office. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:27:26 PM EST
    He's still allowed to run (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by bocajeff on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 06:13:46 PM EST
    For some reason, the line from (5.00 / 6) (#14)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:21:26 PM EST
    "The Wasteland" is coming to mind: "this is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper."

    The president said today that any deal was going to have pain for everyone, but I don't believe that - I think corporate profits, bonuses, dividends, CEO salaries are all going to go up and up and up.  Wall Street isn't going to suffer, the banksters are not going to suffer, insurance companies are not going to suffer.  Who will?  Average Americans.  People on the cusp of retirement.  Old people, poor people - they will suffer.  It's beyond offensive that inflicting pain upon people who simply have no recourse is considered some kind of great accomplishment, that making liberals mad is considered a badge of honor by someone who carries a (D) after his name.

    This is just insanity.  Economic suicide.

    No one voted for this.  It's all well and good to talk about the idea of smaller government and spending cuts as a means to strengthen the economy, but the reality?  I think it's going to stun people in its cruelty - and by then, it will be too late.

    Anne, (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:25:58 PM EST
    I keep thinking "Aux Barricades!"

    I've been dreaming the last three nights of commanding a brigade to division sized element in Northern Alabama, with current technology. Oh, and my side was fighting 'the oppressors,' whomever they may be. Incredibly detailed. In my dream, I asked, "is this a dream?" and the answer was "yes and no sir."

    Scary. I don't want to know what else is in my subconscious.

    Parent

    "The Hollow Men," Anne (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:35:33 PM EST
    but yeah

    f^ck yeah

    Parent

    Thanks for the correction... (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 06:00:43 PM EST
    It makes me think, though, that the reason we are becoming a wasteland is because of these hollow, hollow men.

    Sickening and sad and just makes me want to throw things.

    Parent

    Or, as that mutant ex-Senator, (none / 0) (#63)
    by NYShooter on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 10:30:41 PM EST
    and demented pimple-impersonating-a-human, Alan Simpson, said to his fellow millionaires at the table, "it takes real guts to propose the cuts we're proposing here today."

    Parent
    Trying to remember who wrote (none / 0) (#74)
    by oldpro on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 02:23:41 AM EST
    the alternative ending..."not with a whim, but a banker!"

    Anyone?

    Parent

    Paul Desmond! (none / 0) (#93)
    by shoephone on Sat Jul 09, 2011 at 02:59:30 PM EST
    The first sax player ever I loved (at the ripe old age of ten..) Full disclosure -- I had to google the quote.

    Here are some more, from the Take Fiver himself.

    Parent

    Good on ya, shoe....! (none / 0) (#94)
    by oldpro on Sat Jul 09, 2011 at 05:34:58 PM EST
    Beautiful day here on the bay....think I'll take five!

    Parent
    Bi-partisan? (5.00 / 8) (#23)
    by cal1942 on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 06:07:06 PM EST
    Please.  If that's Obama's calculation can we please stop calling him brilliant or very intelligent or whatever.  We would hope that he could rise to the level of mediocrity but the record isn't promising.

    Republicans will have ongoing orgasms of delight watching Obama destroy the jewel in the crown of the Democratic Party.

    Clobbering Social Security will be blamed on Obama and Democrats and only on Obama and Democrats.

    Beyond the politics, cutting Social Security is the depth of infamy, an act exposing Obama's complete lack of understanding of nation.  Unfortunately it's not just Obama, it's the whole feeble elite class in government, business, education and the media.  We have no leaders, just sniveling little managers.

    This IS Obama.  This is Obama for all to see. He never was what the suckers thought he was.

    Playing the class warfare card (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 06:17:39 PM EST
    We should not only be playing it, we should be running it EVERY play.  Because it was declared on us some time ago.  It's all a game to the amoral opposition, who see it as their American duty to grind everyone else into brick dust by any means necessary, most effectively through purchasing of the government itself.

    You're damn right it's class warfare, we should be saying.  We're at war with money junkies who have no class, who really don't care if you can get a job or not, or stay in your home, as long as they can rake in as much money as they can.

    It's a rigged game of Monopoly, which, of course, is a lovely redundancy.  Game pieces, fair rules, riches still available, but with a humane and generous floor for the game's "losers."  Fairness, fairness, fairness.  Drive it home.

    Class warfare. And war profits. (none / 0) (#75)
    by oldpro on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 02:26:40 AM EST
    Could we please start calling things by their real names?

    Parent
    Yes, we can, since my useless Senator... (none / 0) (#83)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 10:25:31 AM EST
    ...Feinstein lives in a Pacific Heights manse purchased with plenty of war booty.

    Parent
    David Plouffe (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Edger on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:12:36 PM EST
    on Obama's 2012 Reelection Strategy

    Obama has an opportunity to improve his standing among independent voters -- many of whom deserted the Democrats in the 2010 midterm election -- by working with Republicans toward bipartisan deficit-reduction measures.

    There is a man on the street video interview here of independents responding to Plouffe.

    Thanks for the vid (none / 0) (#32)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:20:21 PM EST
    I need a good laugh :) What is it about Elmo . . . ?

    Parent
    I thought it was about Plouffe ;-) (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:29:37 PM EST
    Elmo has this 'thing' about (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:41:16 PM EST
    him that just makes me smile. In fact, while I was watching it, I totally forgot why/Plouffe :)

    I'm hoping the campaign rallies either turn into the crowd chanting "Bullsh*t!" like a good sporting event, or they dissolve into laughter Elmo style. If we get both, could make for some serious fun ;) The The O team is looking mighty outta touch these days . . . sadly.

    Parent

    It would be fun (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Edger on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 09:10:25 PM EST
    to see 50,000 or so people all take a tickle me elmo doll with them to one of those rallies, wouldn't it? ;-)

    Pre-emptive attack with Elmo Drones.

    Parent

    I know this is (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by lentinel on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:38:12 PM EST
    a naive question, but wouldn't ending the wars @ 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 billion dollars a week do something to avoid these draconian cuts?

    How does the play end? (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Zorba on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:02:51 PM EST
    I'll tell you how the play ends.  Think Hamlet.  Everyone lies dead on the stage as Fortinbras comes sweeping out to take control.  Fortinbras represents the very wealthy, Wall Street and big business in general, the US Chamber of Commerce, and so on.  The dead on the stage are the rest of us.

    And Geithner is.... (5.00 / 0) (#61)
    by Coral on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 10:09:13 PM EST
    Gertrude?

    Claudius? Maybe Goldman Sachs.

    Ophelia, who has committed suicide, is probably the Progressive Democrats en masse, led by Pelosi.

    Who's Hamlet's father's ghost? Guess it's FDR.

    Polonius has got to be Lieberman, or Alan Simpson.

    Parent

    Well then... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:45:23 PM EST
    no reason to cut the safety net.

    Obama wants to cut the safety nets -- he'll find a (none / 0) (#87)
    by jawbone on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 12:54:49 PM EST
    reason that he "has to cut" to allow the economy to survive.

    Of course, he's looking a Japanification and we a quite a ways to go with high unemployment and low growth to get to Japan's Lost Decade accomplishment.

    Parent

    NewsHour tonight had a segment with Andrew Kohut, (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jawbone on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 10:37:55 PM EST
    pollster, and Naftali Bendavid, congressional correspondent for the WSJ discussing Obama's great bargaining. Video and transcript here.

    Kohut pointed out several times that Obama and the Republicans are proposing things almost completely opposite what the public wants to have done.  The public by two to one favors tax increases, some cuts, but not messing with the social safety nets (SS, Medicare and Medicaid).  Affluent Republicans don't mind if SS and Medicare are screwed with, but middle, lower, and poor Republicans do not want these TOUCHED.

    ANDREW KOHUT: Well, surprisingly, when you ask about what is more important, preserving benefits for Social Security and Medicare, by 2-1 -- or reducing deficit or the debt -- 2-1, people say, preserve -- preserve our benefits.

    There is very little give there. Now, Republicans are of the view -- more of the view that reducing the -- reducing the deficit should be given high priority. But even among Republicans, it's really interesting. There is a big income divide. Affluent Republicans say it is more important to reduce the deficit, but poorer Republicans, middle-class and lower-middle-class Republicans say, no, no, protect our benefits.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: And have -- are these attitudes, Andy, that have changed over time, with all the attention that's now being given to the size of the debt and the urgency of the problem?

    ANDREW KOHUT: Well, a lot -- people are willing to do a lot of things to reduce this deficit. Concern is at an all-time high.

    But when it comes to entitlements, there's no movement. It really is rock-solid when we see 2-1 margins.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: And, again, entitlements meaning Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare.

    ANDREW KOHUT: And even Medicaid. Having states raise the -- make it more -- reduce eligibility for Medicaid, not 2-1, but a solid majority say, no, let's not do that.
    SNIP
    ANDREW KOHUT: And that is completely opposite to public opinion.

    When we say, if push comes to shove, if you have to do something, what would you rather see with respect to these entitlements, revenues increased, or taxes increased, or benefits cut? People say, raise taxes, raise costs, but don't cut those benefits.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: And you see that across the board?

    ANDREW KOHUT: See that across the board.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: Republican -- what about Republican vs. Democrat?

    ANDREW KOHUT: Well, there is a gap on this, but when you get such large 2-1 margins and you have this class division within the Republican Party, that is potentially big stuff come election time. There will be a huge cry and howl if benefits are seen to have been -- to have been cut here.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: And so I hear you saying some of the public reaction is going to depend on how this is packaged, how it is described to the American people, whatever -- if they come up with an agreement.

    ANDREW KOHUT: Right.

    I mean, there is support for raising the contribution cap, of doing some things like that. But the notion that the retirement ages will be delayed or in some way people are going to have to pay a larger share of their Medicare costs out of their pocket, all of those things are very, very unpopular.
    (My emphasis, and do note how Woodruff reacts to Kohut saying people want one thing, Obama and R's are doing the opposite, so the takeaway is -- how it is going to be SPUN. Oh, she is a true Versailles courtier.)

    Obama does not work for us. Repubs do not work for us.  ConservaDems do not work for us. Who does?

    We do not have the wealth of the Top One Percenters, so we are useless -- except for getting fooled to give them our votes.

    But the same poll numbers (none / 0) (#65)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 10:41:35 PM EST
    were in effect on the public option -- more than 60% of Americans (including some Repubs) wanted it included in health care legislation. Obama doesn't give a hoot.

    Parent
    Yes, I know. Both BushBoy and Obama are excellent (none / 0) (#84)
    by jawbone on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 12:42:58 PM EST
    at ignoring the needs and desires of the little people.  There may be lots of us, but we got nuthin' to donate to him, so we get nuthin' from him.

    Parent
    Honest question (none / 0) (#67)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 11:31:12 PM EST
    If the polls said that we should be cutting SS would you then support it.  I am a huge fan of polls and the people's will but I don't want any politician, liberal or conservative, to be a slave to it.

    I remember when I was the only kid on my block that hated the war in Iraq.  I think public opinion was wrong then.

    Again, I use public opinion at times too so I can't hit too hard on it, bit gay marriage has only been the majority opinion for like 6 months so let's not push the populist meme too hard.

    Parent

    So it public (none / 0) (#82)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 09:55:58 AM EST
    opinion right or wrong on this question?

    Parent
    This is the part (1.00 / 0) (#39)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:38:50 PM EST
    Where my team takes a pounding and we hope like hell what's being said isn't entirely true.

    I'll take the lumps on behalf of team Obama supporters on this because it doesn't look fantastic at this point, but I am keeping the faith.

    Come ON fourth dimensional chess. Work that chess magic.

    sure (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:44:16 PM EST
    'cause it's all just such a game, ya know

    Parent
    Not a game (none / 0) (#45)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:11:49 PM EST
    And all sides are taking it aeriously. Just trying to keep it light.

    I mean what are we going to do otherwise while we wait on the outcome? Rant about how much our politicians stink and how evil everyone in power is?

    Hey wait a second . . .

    Parent

    what i hope we do in the meantime, AngryGuy, (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:20:13 PM EST
    is mount a serious primary challenge to Obama

    why not, since he's going to lose in 2012 anyway

    & even though the effort to mount a serious primary challenge will fail, at least we (by "we" i mean the people on my "team," who are evidently not the same people on your "team") may get enough organizing under our belts to possibly whip the Democratic Party back into some kind of shape so we never get stuck with a lightweight "media darling" Pepsi candidate like Obama again

    & that is as much as i'm feeding you today, Mr. T

    Parent

    Now 2012 (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:31:29 PM EST
    Is something entirely different. Obama comes out of this looking like a rational and reasonable guy who brought two sides who appeared incapable of agreement to a bargain.  I actually think that if he pulls of a compromise that the moderates and independents see as fair he will go into the elections looking very formidable. Decent housing info out today and what looks to be a slightly improving job market tells me that the slow recovery is beginning again. I think he will be in as good a shape as he could expect given that we are going to have months of the GOP showing how insane their candidates will be.

    But obviously elections aren't policy and what we are concerned with now is policy,  I said from the start that Obama would have to tick many here off to avoid disaster.  I just hope he doesn't concede too much without real pain on the other side.  After the last budget fight people thought that the got deems got killed while the reality was that it wasn't much of a victory at all for conservatives. If that process happened again I would be thrilled.

    But the stories out today worry me.  No doubt.

    Parent

    You may want to consider (5.00 / 6) (#48)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:37:22 PM EST
    That Obama comes out of this looking like sh*t. The Dems aren't calling for these cuts, OBAMA is. And about this:

    I just hope he doesn't concede too much without real pain on the other side.

    Have you not been paying attention?!?!

    Parent

    Again (none / 0) (#52)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 08:46:50 PM EST
    We have no idea what the real deal is.  Over on the other blogs conservatives are going nuts over rumors that real tax increases are coming. They are worried about being faked out by accounting changes that don't result in real cuts.

    It's all ridiculously fluid and way to early for either side to know where we will end up.

    Parent

    We will end up with something... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 09:30:04 PM EST
    ...that is conservative in origin and design, something that makes the right much happier than the left, their fake belly-aching aside.  This is guaranteed because foolish and destructive and illogical right wing economic paradigms have been institutionally legitimized by Obama's post-partisan horsesh*t and have been made the starting point of all negotiations on almost any subject.  At this point, I can only conclude this is because Obama is fine with this, and that he thinks it a good thing -- because, apparently, he believes doing so will get him re-elected.  It is entirely self-interest for him, with the interest of other Americans much less seriously considered.  And if he actually thinks what he's doing will help the economy, well, he is certifiably mentally disabled.  

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    Obama the Great Pretender !!!! (none / 0) (#79)
    by samsguy18 on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 07:50:54 AM EST
    This is all a rouse by the brillant one...even the republicans weren't suggesting cutting SS. Today unemployment is up again !

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    Pain on the other side (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Coral on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 09:49:04 PM EST
    Pain for social security recipients may mean not being able to afford to take prescribed drugs or buy food.

    Pain for millionaire in the finance industry may mean having a little less to spend on this year's new speculative venture...or buying a Mercedes instead of a Rolls.

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    There is no actual pain on the other side. (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 09:54:11 PM EST
    It's imagined pain.  These people have more than they can ever spend.  There's plenty for the rolls.  

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    Obama comes out of this as the guy (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 01:40:39 AM EST
    who cut Social Security and Medicare.

    You and he are fooling yourselves thinking that this move will make Obama popular with the general public.  

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    He also brings down the Democratic Party by doing (none / 0) (#85)
    by jawbone on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 12:44:38 PM EST
    this -- part of a plan by a stealth Republican running as a Dem?

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    The job market is not improving (5.00 / 0) (#80)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 08:43:37 AM EST
    Reuters

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. employment growth ground to a halt in June, with employers hiring the fewest number of workers in nine months, dousing hopes the economy would regain momentum in the second half of the year.

    ...

    The unemployment rate climbed to a six-month high of 9.2 percent, even as jobseekers left the labor force in droves, from 9.1 percent in May.

    ...

    The government revised April and May payrolls to show 44,000 fewer jobs created than previously reported.

    But keep spinning those fairy tales!

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    Oh so you only hope (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by sj on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 01:13:57 AM EST
    that it isn't entirely true.  I expect you will, as usual, find your way to supporting this wholeheartedly as the best deal poor Obama was able to cut.  Who cares what lumps you take -- you don't affect the nation.  This has never been about you -- except as a stand-in for all the cheerleaders who make The One more important than The Millions.  And by The Millions I mean people, not dollars.

    Our hostess has made you welcome and I accept that, but frankly just seeing your name makes me tired.

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    I give you credit (none / 0) (#43)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:53:39 PM EST
    for that response.  We can hope that this ends up being some genius move.  But I just don't see it happening that way.  Mostly because Obama wants the cuts tied to the debt ceiling.  Working out the cuts under that kind of pressure to me almost guarantees that cuts are going to wallop increases in revenue, by at least 85/15 if not more.

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    Thank you (none / 0) (#20)
    by Towanda on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 05:42:21 PM EST
    for a post that TalkingLeft, not just TalkingDem.  There are plenty of panderers who are TalkingDem.

    I am so done with TalkingDem.  To the barricades with jeffinalabama!  Next week is Bastille Day. . . .

    Curious, Donald (none / 0) (#86)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 12:52:43 PM EST
    What range of options does a 10 year proposal give? Once I decided to sit back for a few days to see and try to digest the outcome of this pitched-battle prelude to 2012, I refocused from the back & forth positioning on the way to "debt ceiling resolution" and found myself saying "Hmmm 10 yrs? Hmmm interesting? Dumb like a fox or weakened? Hmmm what would be the issues in 2012...for Republicans (e.g., may not work for the Repubs to go to the anti gay well again, might not work to try to milk more from health reform since they would be asked for their own plan, and what about the "power" of a deficit argument if the agreed to & gift-wrapped bargain kicked the "issue" down the road for a long while & the pressure off everyone including the public?)  

    The 10 yr "see ya & raise ya" approach could be a big risk, but it sure is interesting? From your background in the hallowed halls, I'd be interested in reading your reflections on the maneuver?

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    And Repubs will attack Obama from the left -- his (none / 0) (#88)
    by jawbone on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 12:57:19 PM EST
    failure to create JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS.

    Michelle Bachmann said she expected the bad economic news to be good for her run for the presidency.

    R's have no problem saying two polar opposite things at the same time or of making commercials using both to attack an opponent.

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    People seem to be taking hope (none / 0) (#29)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:06:46 PM EST
    (well, the usual suspects anyway) in the new leverage afforded House Dems because "the GOP is crazy."  So supposedly the House Dems are going to be important in passing the bill.

    I don't think Obama wants this to be passed that way though.  He wants this to be his big truly bipartisan victory.  I don't think the GOP is dumb enough to jeopardize this opportunity to gouge out spending cuts that might be gone if the Dems are the party that passes the bill in the House.

    The Senate seems like a piece of cake regardless, most of them love this sh*t on both sides of the aisle, Durbin has been making a fool out of himself at the prospect of a Grand Bargain.  

    Kent Conrad meanwhile occupies the WTF?? position with his 50/50 proposal.  What a joke.  Did he intentionally wait until the last minute to introduce it (yes)?

    I think Obama really wants this to happen.  Otherwise he wouldn't have gotten involved.  If you're worried about the House Dems, remember that a fair amount of House Dems want to repeal the ACA.  That should give a decent indication of how this will pass IMO.

    Nevermind (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 07:10:41 PM EST
    only 3 Dems voted for repeal of the ACA.  There are 26 official blue dogs in the House.

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    NAFTA and Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Coral on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 09:55:38 PM EST
    is an analogy.

    Boy, was that ever a huge mistake. It was the beginning of a great downward decline that is now spinning totally out of control.

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    NAFTA (none / 0) (#90)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 01:25:59 PM EST
    ... "had little or no impact on aggregate employment."

    Non-partisan CRS study of four major NAFTA studies.

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    I have felt from (none / 0) (#66)
    by sas on Thu Jul 07, 2011 at 10:49:26 PM EST
    the beginning of his candidacy that Obama is NO DEMOCRAT.  What a pathetic and disgusting turn of event this deal may be.  My only hope is that Pelosi has the cojones to nix whatever folly Obama presents her.
    Who can the REAL Democrats run in 2012?  For a long time I have been thinking that this guy is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.
    I am praying that I am wrong, but this is creating a very bad taste in my mouth.
    UGH

    Only possible alternative is (none / 0) (#76)
    by oldpro on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 02:42:15 AM EST
    another black guy or a Hispanic...Bill Richardson without the baggage.

    Not much of a farm team from the looks of it.

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    The Democrats have become (none / 0) (#78)
    by itscookin on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 07:31:23 AM EST
    like a school sports team that only feeds the ball to the star player. It might have made the crowds happy to have a player with star power and got the star player a nice scholarship, but when he graduates, there's no one else on the team who has scored any points.

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    Yup. Well said. (none / 0) (#91)
    by oldpro on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 01:48:14 PM EST
    Remember how delighted Dems were when Obama (none / 0) (#89)
    by jawbone on Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 12:59:17 PM EST
    finally mentioned the Democratic Party at the...National Democratic Nominating Convention in Denver?

    What cheers he got for mentioning a few of the Democratic Party's principles?

    Alas, how little he has honored them.

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