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The best workout EVER.
Wow, bet you will wind up with arms to die for. Parent
It's a lot of fun too. Parent
It's a lot of fun too.
Exercise that is so much fun that you forget it is exercise.
My "fun" exercise programs are much more sedate than yours but good for me none the less.
Tues. and Thur. - water aerobics Wed. - senior line dancing*
Not so fun exercise.
Mon., Wed and Fri - treadmill and strength training
*My Wed. line dancing class is taught by a 92 year old lady and we all wish we could move as well as she does. Sharp as a tack also. It was rather embarrassing when I first started. I was very out of shape and was huffing and puffing after a couple of fast dances and there was Mini, the 92 year old, not out of breath at all. I want to be just like Mini when I grow up. Parent
I also like water aerobics, swimming, anything to do with water. Parent
The line dancers also go as a group to monthly dances held at our civic center. I'm going to my first one next Friday. More dancing. Hurrah, hurrah. Parent
Where are you? Parent
The late-night Chinook helicopter crash in Afghanistan that killed up to 31 Americans and 7 Afghans killed over 20 Navy SEALs, including members of Seal Team Six, the same unit that participated in the raid that killed Osama bin Laden. ... AP itemizes the deaths as "22 SEALs, three Air Force air controllers, seven Afghan Army troops, a dog and his handler, and a civilian interpreter, plus the helicopter crew." link
Condolences to the families.
The legacy for our times will be "Never ending wars."
In this day and time, the special operations guys have tremendous success, but the conventional side and the diplomatic/civil affairs nation builders, not so much. Parent
We lost a lot when we lost the people that we lost 2 days ago. The total group knowledge and skill and capability is staggering. What is even more staggering though is that we have people lined up behind them several people deep working to acquire the same years worth of knowledge, skills, and abilities to be able to do the same job. That is because of what is on the line. Iraq was not about addressing danger, it was about taking a country over and taking away their precious resource. It was immoral and it burnt people out, it made people quit, it just about broke the military. As far as dedicated people returning to service and volunteering to deploy though, finally focusing on the dangers that Afghanistan poses caused that whole dynamic to make a 180 degree turn around. Our soldiers aren't going to burn out, and that is because this is about addressing very real danger. Parent
Sure, there was cultural pollination, changes in religion, etc., but Afghanistan has never stayed conquored, if you take my drift. Parent
Many of these senior special forces soldiers are devastating when they are lost now. They are amazing because they aren't kids, and they've managed to hang in there while grueling things are done to their aging bodies. They work closely with those in mission planning too and the infrastructures that support them. If they aren't on an actual mission they are in working groups of people with their heads all together. Many get to know them well and come to love them as family outside of their immediate unit. This is going to be a devastating loss. Parent
Was the helicopter Navy/marine, Army, or USAF?
Just a few questions.
Twenty SEALS going down at once... SOCOM must be reeling. This sort of thing only happens in nightmares.
Now I wonder who of my few amigos there bought it.
Appropos of nothing, did Mr. MT ever fly in the 160th SOAR, or SOAG? Don't answer if you can't. Parent
And it looks like the helicopter was shot down on approach. Why wasn't the LZ secured/suppressed by fixed wing aircraft and/or gunships before the landing?
I read/heard somewhere that the transport was unarmed, the oldest in the fleet and the only one capable of carrying a heavy load at the altitude required to get to the LZ.
I doubt it but maybe this will explain to some folks why Bush didn't have the military pursue OBL into the high mountains. Some wise military type pointed out to him that we lose a lot of our technology in the high mountains and the fight becomes more equal.
I don't believe in equal fights. Parent
Maybe the lack of fixed wing coordination came because of that same planning.
And if the area was hot, but this was supposed to be a covert infiltration, who spilled the beans, or who was the idiot who picked out a map reference and said "that's a good spot" without any reconnaisance?
Aerial photos or sat photos at least, if not low-level passes or EM checking for either radio, cell, or satphone...
If this was some sort of a training exercise, I think I'll just vomit. Parent
But flying at those altitudes, the lift issue gets critical.
Jim, if the weapons were offloaded because of weight issues to get everyone aboard a single carrier, somebody needs to go to jail. But instead, let's see if there are new additions to the PAO office. Parent
Our all volunteer military is creating a civilian society that often criticizes the political objectives but who just accept as a given that our tactics are always right.
We need Universal Military Service to be sure that everyone is on the same page when it comes to who and what the military is. Parent
'Guess I can have patience for awhile longer. Thanks again. Parent
But the representation of our forces that died on that aircraft will remain in the region for a very long time, or perhaps the global recession/depression will starve the Haqqani network of funding and the weapons. That would be at least one plus along with the suffering. Parent
I've almost stopped writing about Afghanistan except to call for the removal of all military, even if it means destroying equipment in place. Parent
Because of what Bush did, we were observed and tested and tested by the Haqqani network and they began training to do damage. They have made at least one very sophisticated wave suicide bombing to kill Karzai, they have killed every leader in Afghanistan that would stand up to them so far. I can't say run of mill Taliban has done this or is even interested in most of that. The Haqqani network uses the cover of the Taliban though, they remain Taliban affiliated but they are separate. It is just useful when they do some things, to put the blanket Taliban stamp on it and hopefully hide how sophisticated and capable they can be behind a series of small scale Taliban difficulties...whatever those are in any given week.
The Haqqani network is part of a very sophisticated international network getting a lot of money funneled to it. Probably most of it out of Saudi Arabia. We will not leave Pakistani nukes to be fought over by the Haqqani network. That isn't happening. This may not end in my lifetime. I'm not planning on it. This isn't about winning. It is only about keeping nukes out of the International jihadist terrorism network, and there is such a thing now and a large part of who ignored the situations and refused to deal with the real danger is on George Bush. Parent
To me this looks like a major Charley Foxtrot by who ever did the battle plan.
IF, and this is a big IF, the LZ wasn't suppressed because it was thought that there were "friendlies" in the area then we damn well should not have been there.
Obama has said we are leaving. No need to recklessly waste lives after we have already surrendered. Parent
It is very unusual for these guys to miscalculate though Jim, but it happens. These guys do a lot of missions right now, this is a horrible loss but when you consider the scale of risk and the number of missions they have preformed without a hitch....it's astonishing. I know that during one six month time frame last year we lost two separate soldiers to unforeseeable events. They are going to get killed sometimes Jim. It is astonishing that it doesn't happen more than it does right now, but I suppose that is a testament to their training and hard they work and carefully they plan. They had three air controllers with them, that would be who was responsible for suppressing during a top secret raid like this. Everyone was leaving and missed something or someone if this was indeed a shootdown. Every helicopter that goes down in Afghanistan during something like this is immediately pronounced a shootdown by the Taliban though, whether it was or not. Parent
As force multiplyers this stands as the equivalent of losing an entire brigade within seconds. Parent
But my point remains. Why would you bring in a fire team to an unpressed/unsecured LZ??
That is dumb. Pure flat out 100% dumb. Parent
This was a horrible loss, and yet....given the sheer number of missions these guys are doing they probably have a better survival rate at this time than those of us running around the states in our cars and crashing. They aren't dumb, they are anything but. Parent
Now the suppression may or may not be successful but you gotta try before you send in unarmed troop carriers.
After troops are on the ground the air controllers direct additional support, if needed. And additional efforts to secure the LZ are made. Parent
... even imaging what happened or didn't happen from the comfort of his arm chair. Parent
... you'll get better at it. Parent
Who knew?
BTW - You went wrong after the first three words.
New record? Parent
And while JAG serves an important function you don't think of them in anything but support roles.
I rest my case. Parent
I rest my case.
BTW - Thank G0d a client will never have to hear you say those words ... Parent
Like the guys who say they were "in naval aviation", without specifying their MOS? Funny, but ...
... "you don't think of them in anything but support roles." Parent
... sounds like. Then again, you haven't the slightest clue what I've done, so I guess your conclusion is as valuable as your other, baseless opinions.
Funny how you appear to be very proud of your time spent in "naval aviation", but will never mention your MOS, where/when you served, etc. tell ya what, Jim. Tell me what you did and I'll tell you what I did and we'll compare. Unless, of course, ...
... you're like the guy who was a hall monitor in elementary school telling everyone he used to be in "law enforcement". Parent
And no, I never post what I did. All I have ever said is that I spent 10 years in Naval Aviation.
What I do think is that you are Dark Avenger under a new moniker. Your shadowing, your phrasing, etc., all point to that.
And yes, what ever I did in Naval Aviation is more than you have ever done.
Have a nice night. I'm done with this since, like Dark Avenger, you have reframed the discussion and got us off subject. Parent
Or, ...
... there's the real reason you never post what you did, other making vague references to being "in naval aviation".
Don't forget to polish your Hall Monitor badge! Parent
Current Leaderboard
Tiger's Caddy - 1st Tiger - Tied for 38th Parent
/I can do that! Parent
American Families Ass'n I think is AFA (I won't read NYT-linked pieces unless Krugman or something well done) Parent
If you haven't read it, here's an introduction:
http://www.herseyhiroshima.com/hiro.php
I have mixed feelings on that one, since it could well turn out to be a monument devoted mostly to supporting not only the making but the first use in war of the bomb. And I don't think the people of Japan would be very happy about it if the presentation is too one-sided in favor of its having been used properly by Truman, as it almost certainly would be. Parent
Any monument to the Manhattan Project would have to be undertaken with the utmost care. Make it too grandiose and it comes off as hard-hearted war-worshipping by the victor. Say too little and you risk whitewashing history. Say too much and you risk arousing one side which would prefer only the official story and reasoning as of August 1945 be told.
Shades of the 1995 Smithsonian Exhibit that was originally planned to include a detailed, frank script looking at both sides of the decision to drop the bomb. That one got so heated, Congress got involved -- especially the war-worshippers on the Right -- and the exhibit had to be essentially canceled, with a bare-bones one saying very little in its place.
Haven't been to Manzanar -- driven past it many times to and from Mammoth Mtn. The info presented there would be interesting to see and evaluate as to its fairness and accurate depiction of that controversy.
Changing Custer to the Little Big Horn -- a much easier call, especially given it was a humiliating defeat for the US side and given the more recently released info that (iirc) had been kept hidden away in (probably one of the Smithsonian museums in) D.C. for nearly all of the 20th C, the story which told of the battle from the Sioux perspective. Also, Custer's long-time hard-working long-living widow -- who'd done so much for her husband to burnish the image of a sterling reputation in the minds of history -- had passed on and so it was easier to transition in the official history away from the false Custer the Heroic General to Custer the Not So Heroic General. Parent
I understand the shock of so many being killed by just two bombs. But they are no more dead than those many killed by many bombs. Parent
P.S.) Summer in SF is chilly, baby. Chill. Eeeeeee. We were at Crissy Field this morning, next to the Golden Gate, might as well have been the middle of December.
"Y'all are staring at me like a dog that just got shown a card trick."
What an excellent saying. I need to file that one away... (pinkie to corner of mouth)