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Wednesday Open Thread

Update: Michael Skakel lost his bid for parole. (Background here) It will be five years before he gets another chance.

I will be very busy at work and in court until late Friday afternoon. I won't have much, if any, time to check the news. I'm not sure of Big Tent Democrat's schedule, so there may be a lot of open threads until then.

Here's one for today, all topics welcome.

BTD - My schedule is sh*t. Lots of Open Threads coming your way.

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    Someone has to help me out (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:29:31 PM EST
    on the Mourdock 'gaffe'. If one believes in God, and believes that anything is God's will, doesn't one believe everything is God's will? The rape, the pregnancy, and the abortion or birth or miscarriage (whichever happens) afterwards?

    I'm all for giving him political grief whenever possible, but I'm confused about why.

    On his apology tour this morning (5.00 / 0) (#3)
    by CoralGables on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:36:06 PM EST
    Mourdock said only the baby is a gift from god not the rape. Selective gifting?

    When one needs to hold a press conference to explain a well thought out answer (i.e. not flippant or a gaffe) the day after the debate, you can sense blood in the water around the campaign.

    And somewhere Richard Lugar is smiling.

    Parent

    Is the rape... (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:47:45 PM EST
    god's gift to the rapist?  It's all so confusing! ;)

    Parent
    And, if so, could a rapist then petition (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:01:13 PM EST
    for and gain parental and visitation rights? That's all sorts of f**ked up. Man, I'm not so sure which side the good Lord is on.

    Parent
    I think there is a history of that happening (none / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:03:35 PM EST
    It caused the woman to become a lawyer as well.  I can't remember where I read her story now, sorry.

    Parent
    I think he/she/it... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:05:28 PM EST
    has gotta be on the side of those who ain't namedropping he/she/it every damn day.

    Parent
    Sometimes I just love you (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:49:53 PM EST
    Next time I come to NY, you (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:48:39 PM EST
    should too and meet and drink w/us.  

    Parent
    me too me too! (5.00 / 3) (#164)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:17:39 PM EST
    Definitely. I would love to be (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 11:22:06 PM EST
    There for Gergiev/LSO/Brahms and Pacino revisiting "Glengarry."  Maybe in Feb.

    Parent
    So, when you guys get together (none / 0) (#170)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:58:09 PM EST
    you don't talk about politics, or TL, do you?

    I've thought about what it would be like to get together with some of the TL crowd, but for me what we discuss here on TL is stuff I never, NEVER, discuss with any of my real-life friends. Even now, just before a POTUS election. OK, occasionally, maybe, if a TL topic is also a local topic, but none of that other stuff...

    Parent

    Funny. I am forever (none / 0) (#173)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 11:23:34 PM EST
    quoting "my blog."  Not that anyone cares.

    Parent
    Nobody around me is as informed (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 08:34:36 AM EST
    About specific issues frequently discussed here.  I suppose they have a real life. Sometimes it seems like I'm talking over heads and I'm either showing off or you have just met my hobby head on and it isn't sexy.

         

    Parent

    Except for the eyebrows. (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 01:53:04 PM EST
    Working on it (none / 0) (#187)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 04:41:27 PM EST
    kids sports, kids friends, etc. OK, now and then we talk about other members of our families and our j o b s, but mainly it's all about the kids. Probably sounds boring to some...

    Parent
    It was really boring to me (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by sj on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 11:41:46 PM EST
    until I was in a position to contribute to the conversation.  :)

    I remember once talking to a friend who remarked that when we first became friends we used to whine about our parents while sharing a dooby.  Then later that evolved into whining about our kids over cocktails.  Only to later return to whining about our parents over coffee.

    Now... I would love to be able to whine about my parents.  But I can only miss them.  

    On the upside, now that The Kid is grown I have no complaints at all.  I'm very proud of him.  And I can talk about him all day.

    Parent

    OMG I just can't deal with these (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:14:40 PM EST
    Neanderthals anymore, and I most especially cannot deal with the male version, who have no idea what they are talking about.  

    Do you suppose that if someone burned down Mourdock's house and left a prettily-wrapped gift on the smoking remains that he would get why his remarks about rape and the gift of an egg fertilized by violent-stranger sperm are so insensitive and insulting?

    Why is this even any of this man's business?  

    Parent

    This story is getting national attention... (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by magster on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:22:23 PM EST
    ... Obama needs to ditch the Romnesia speech for a couple of days and call out Romney's endorsement of this neanderthal. Romney suffered during the Akin fallout, and rightfully so, and so should he now.

    Parent
    With the Clown Party (none / 0) (#120)
    by NYShooter on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:47:44 PM EST
    being such a target rich environment I don't know why the Dems can't bombard them morning, noon, and night for the next 13 days with nuggets like this:

    "You can't call the Republican platform incoherent. Their global warming denialism plank ensures that there will be plenty of ice floes to put the old folks on."

    from our friends at RBC

    Parent

    OK - he is saying GIFT, not WILL! (none / 0) (#27)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:37:53 PM EST
    I guess sometimes god wills un-gifts....

    Parent
    If we're going to talk about (none / 0) (#29)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:57:58 PM EST
    returning gifts, someone should take Mourdock and Akin to Nordstrom; I hear they will take anything back.

    And I'm going to go do something else - work? - to get the phrases "re-gifting" and "Return to Sender" out of my head.

    Parent

    Nordstrom (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:58:27 PM EST
    will only take something back that they once sold.  Mourdock and Akin are definitely inferior products that Nordy's would never have carried.  ;-)
    At best, they came from Big Lots.  Or more probably, a junk dealer.

    Parent
    If the resulting baby is then adopted is that (none / 0) (#40)
    by caseyOR on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:26:47 PM EST
    re-gifting?

    Parent
    Adoption waiting lists are like (none / 0) (#43)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:31:57 PM EST
    registering at Babys R Us

    Parent
    As a woman (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:49:24 PM EST
    If I'm standing there raped and pregnant and someone tells me the baby is God's will and God's design and God's plan...then the rape has to be God's will and God's design and God's plan too.

    After that realization I must digress back to why I decided I was not a Christian, with a God who is that much of a F*Cker who wants to spend enternity with him?

    Because I seem to need a God, I exercised my right as an American and chose a different God at that point and I'm reminded of the importance of that choice and the right and ability to make it afresh :)

    Parent

    Similar here...at some point I decided (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:30:17 PM EST
    that a god wise enough to create the logical laws of nature would never come up with such a convoluted scheme for salvation.

    Parent
    Buddhism has its benefits (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:02:53 PM EST
    I have been fascinated by Tibetan Buddhism.  The Mandalas and cereomonies are just wonderful.

    Parent
    I love that Buddhism doesn't force (none / 0) (#181)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 09:06:37 AM EST
    any choices between the fairy tale and science.  Just go with science, fact, truth, knowledge, wisdom.  And do your best to cultivate a peaceful wisdom seeking mind.  Not easy at this time.

    This was just in Scientific American though titled Antiscience Beliefs Jeopardize US Democracy.

    Does that make Buddhism the religion of democracy :)?

    Parent

    Has he explained what his theology is and (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Peter G on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:12:50 PM EST
    how it would affect his view of his public responsibilities as a Senator?  I mean, the guy can believe anything he wants or that he's taught to believe.  The First Amendment guarantees that.  (Does he agree, I wonder, if the First Amendment equally guarantees others' rights to hold beliefs he considers false and contrary to God's Word?)  The question is what he would do as a Senator. So, what he's saying here, apparently, is that because he personally believes every pregnancy is a "gift" from God (that is, the god he personally believes in), the government should make it a crime for a woman to procure or for a doctor to perform an abortion, regardless of the pregnant woman's own choice. Is that it? (By the way, is a pregnancy that threatens the woman's life, such as an ectopic pregnancy, also a "gift" of this kind?) As it happens, the Constitution forbids that preference from being made the law, so now what?  If not that all abortions should be outlawed, then what is his position on the public policy implications of his beliefs?  And does it extend to other beliefs? I would prefer to ridicule his position as a policy matter, than to ridicule the notion of merely holding such beliefs.

    Parent
    It's (none / 0) (#75)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:06:07 PM EST
    difficult for me to believe than anyone could think that anything anybody does is God's will.

    But, once again, whatever God may think, the issue is for the woman to decide.
    That is a consideration that these slimy pols always put aside.


    Parent

    I think I am (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:01:08 PM EST
    still in shock and trying to figure out what to do about this pay cut situation. How the hell do you just tell somebody one day they have to take a 33% cut? What do you expect them to do? Are we supposed to quit making our house payment now? Or quit eating?

    Are you getting the feeling that (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:21:43 PM EST
    your husband's company would just as soon he decide to quit, thus saving them 100% of his salary?  Because that's what I would be thinking if I were him; the company has really boxed your husband into a position of having to choose between doing the same job for 2/3 the pay or quitting and either not being able to find work right away or being penalized and forced to wait weeks to collect any unemployment - if he even could do that.  None of those options are good ones.

    Maybe if someone else decides to quit, your husband could see if the company would put him back on 100% pay, even if that means he has to pick up more responsibilities.

    I am so sorry you are going through this; I know all too well the sickening feeling in the pit of your stomach and the fear that just surges through your body.

    I wish there was something we could do; expressing our sympathy just seems so inadequate.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:14:14 PM EST
    at least you understand.

    He immediately put out feelers for another job. The other thing is this is a really bad time to be looking because once Thanksgiving happens the companies seem to shut down hiring until after the New Year.

    Parent

    Damn.... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:29:00 PM EST
    that sucks GA...who is your boss, Mitt Romney?

    33%, how could anybody eat that...may as well try to get laid off and collect unemployment while looking for a new gig.  Wish I had a better idea.

    Quitting on principle would be ideal, unfortunately working stiffs can't afford principles, they don't pay rent or put food on the table.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:07:54 PM EST
    the option was either quit (no unemployment then) or take the cut. Since the cut is still more than zero he pretty much had to take it.

    Parent
    I see... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:33:00 PM EST
    is it feasible for your husband to just start f*cking up on purpose, while refusing to sign any write-ups till they fire him?  Then unemployment could be had I think...might be worth a shot, though it would probably f8ck up the reference, unless he's got somebody he can trust to list as a reference who knows the score.  Worked for an ex-employee at my outfit who was getting abused and couldn't afford to quit.

    My heart goes out to ya GA...hang in there.

    Parent

    Unless the unemployment check is (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:40:20 PM EST
    larger than what the reduced pay is (and according to the Georgia Dept of Labor, the meximum weekly benefit is $330), I don't see that that makes getting fired a good idea - it's harder to get a job when you don't have one, and getting fired doesn't look good on the resume.

    Sucks to be boxed in like that, so here's hoping Mr. Ga6thDem finds something better very soon.

    Parent

    True... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:59:37 PM EST
    but $ 330 a week may be better than swallowing that much pride and eating that much sh*t.

    And one needs time to find a job and interview...it's a lot harder when you're working, even if employers are more likely to hire thise currently employed.

    Parent

    When you have a family, you don't (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:24:38 PM EST
    always have the luxury of telling your employer to take the job and shove it - it's not just the salary, but it's benefits, too.  Sure, you can do COBRA, but you have to start paying 100% of the cost - a lot harder to do on no income, or even on $330/wk.

    Pride is great, but you can't support your family on it and $330/wk.

    Parent

    I didn't see that yesterday (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:43:01 PM EST
    So sorry. What a horrible choice.

    I would apply for a hardship based mortgage modification. Look into it though before you stop paying the mortgage. Some of the programs rules used to call for you being behind on the mortgage, and some up to date. I did not keep up with the latest.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:10:44 PM EST
    we were already in the process because the mortgage is going to double next year. I got a letter turning me down then another letter today saying they were reviewing my file and now I don't know what the h*ll is going on but I'm not hopeful. I have seen too many people try and get turned down for mortgage modifications. So I'm kind of hoping for forbearance until we can do a short sale or something. I don't know what the goal of the banks are these days. I mean they are going to take big hit no matter what.

    Parent
    Sorry, I do remember you talking about that now (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:22:42 PM EST
    The employers really know how to turn the screws in this economy, don't they? Wish I had any other ideas. What kind of work does he do? Maybe one of us has some contacts of places he could look.

    Parent
    I remember reading that you had (none / 0) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:48:17 PM EST
    applied for modification.

    Parent
    I'm sorry to hear this news, Ga. (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:21:54 PM EST
    If me, I would acquiesce to the pay cut, freshen the resume and begin searching for another job. Start networking, try networking and, oh,  did I mention networking. Also, I think it important to keep the job while looking for other employment. Potential employers tend to favor applicants employed over the unemployed. Try to remain optimistic. Much easier said than done, I know -- especially when this advice is from someone not currently facing such challenges. However, I've been in several similar situations. Try your best to remain positive.

    I'm wishing you and your family the best.  

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 04:30:46 AM EST
    is pretty much the plan right now.

    Parent
    Monster.. (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:33:10 PM EST
    ...has a How to Handle a pay Cut.

    This from CBS.

    What is clear is that one should understand company policy and how it relates to the pay cut and future benefits.  Both articles seem to indicate that cuts are negotiable, not sure if I buy that, but worth investigating.

    Also, some states allow one to claim unemployment benefits for substantial reductions in pay.  Also check Federal unemployment, they might have a program for this situation.

    Parent

    In a better (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 04:32:04 AM EST
    economy you might be able to negotiate around the cuts but certainly not right now and certainly not in GA.

    Parent
    If your husband is over 40, and the company (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Peter G on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:11:45 PM EST
    has at least 20 employees, is he being treated equally with younger workers?  It might be worth talking to an employment lawyer to see if there are any contract issues (too bad there's not a union, obviously), state law protections, or any civil rights issue (such as age or any sort of disability).  Even if there is no strong basis to sue, or you wouldn't choose to sue, that conversation could produce something of use in negotiating a less horrendous outcome.  

    Parent
    I didn't even know what to say (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:06:39 PM EST
    Yesterday when you posted. I'm so sorry

    Parent
    There is really (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:12:04 PM EST
    nothing you can say Tracy. I'm really at a loss at this point as to what we need to get rid of.

    Parent
    Sweetie, this is so awful, (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:47:52 PM EST
    I have no words to describe it.  Just know that we are all pulling for you and your husband, and sending all the positive thoughts and energy your way that we can.
    This country is still so f*cked up.  The 1% are doing well, and they don't care.  Meanwhile, average people are still worried about their jobs, their pay cuts, their mortgages, and how they are going to manage.
    Hugs to you both.  

    Parent
    Thanks (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 04:33:30 AM EST
    Zorba. I wish I was in MD so I could give you a hug :)

    Parent
    That's terrible. (none / 0) (#37)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:23:22 PM EST
    In any other decade, I'd advise you to look for another job, but that's obviously a problematic proposition in this dicey economy.

    I'd first check to see if you're eligible to refinance your mortgage, in order to lower your payments -- and do it before the payments become problematic, as well.

    Good luck, and sending good thoughts your way.

    Parent

    Do you have a decent congress critter? (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by womanwarrior on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:15:59 PM EST
    Don't hesitate to ask for their help on mortgage modification. And keep a copy of any document you send to your bank.  Banks' favorite tactic is to claim they did not get the documents. Persistence is the key.

    My niece's had his pay drastically cut by United, and they have had years of hardship.  They are hoping to come back on top this year.  

    Good luck.  Don't give up hope.  Our hearts are with you.  

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#179)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 04:37:16 AM EST
    I'm not sure I have anything but a worthless congress critter but that's certainly good advice.

    Parent
    DON'T discount it (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 08:52:18 PM EST
    congressmen/women simply love doing favors for constituants. The word-of-mouth benefir they get out of it is invaluable.

    I speak from experience. In helping out an 80-something gentleman who had his bank account frozen by JP Morgan/Chase I was running into a brick wall. When I told their Representative that it was illegal to freeze a senior's Social Security account she laughed, and said, "sue us." No, really.

    Bottom line, I called our Congressman (Hinchy) and 48 hours later, the account was freed up. Nobody likes to be told, "Congressman So & So is on the phone."

    Please, do try it. It cant't hurt, and even if they can't do anything directly, they can certainly steer you in the right direction. When you start your conversation with a bank by saying, "I spoke with Congressman ABC, and he/she said........, I guarantee you, you will have their attention.

    Parent

    Top 75 critically rated horror films of all time.. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by magster on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:18:45 PM EST
    ... according to Rottentomatoes.

    kos user cmcolin has been filing a daily
    diary this October on his favorite horror films. Don't really agree with his choices, but since I love a good scary movie, I am loving his series.

    BTW: As a fan of paranormal activity 1, 2, and 3... #4 sucks!

    My recommendation for you all is a 1961 ghost story "The Innocents".

    I loved Henry James' 1893 novella ... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:54:28 PM EST
    ... upon which "The Innocents" was based, "The Turn of the Screw." It had been assigned reading for my American Lit course at the University of Washington, and much to my surprise, I found myself absolutely captivated by it.

    To be honest, and IMHO, I saw "The Innocents" on TCM not all that long ago, and found it somewhat dated, although Deborah Kerr is marvelous as the governess. That said, I would have to say that William Friedkin's 1973 classic "The Exorcist" remains my favorite horror movie.

    Now, were I to recommend a horror film that flew under the radar and not many people have seen, it would have to be Richard Attenborough's 1978 thriller "Magic," which starred Anthony Hopkins, Burgess Meredith, Ann-Margret and Ed Lauter. It garnered tremendous notices and great reviews at the time it was first released, but seemed to have fallen off the map since.

    Nevertheless, you can watch that entire movie HERE. Let me know afterward if you also think (as I do) that "Fats," the ventriloquist's dummy used by Hopkins as his alter ego, eerily resembles Paul Ryan.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Free movie for tonight (none / 0) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:01:18 PM EST
    Thanks...but uh....how come you didn't throw in Red Rocks?  Even low life Republicans can throw me some Red Rocks scrooge

    Parent
    I made my point in the Red Rocks thread. (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:14:29 PM EST
    Why should I berate the issue any more than I already did?

    Parent
    I recently read James' novella (none / 0) (#124)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:05:59 PM EST
    as prep for seeing Benjamin Britten's opera.

    Parent
    "TOTS" as opera? (none / 0) (#130)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:28:40 PM EST
    Sounds intriguing. How was it?

    Parent
    Wonderful music and cast. (none / 0) (#132)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:39:13 PM EST
    Small chamber orchestra. Meant for a smaller house than Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. Libretto isn't as subtle as the novella, of course.

    Parent
    Anything that leads to more (none / 0) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:51:42 PM EST
    defocus from pre-election insanities and infighting.  I like vampire movies, I live with people though who think all horror movies have at least one good thing you can say about each one :)  Thanks for the heads up.  Something to focus on other than fighting with each other.

    Parent
    Given the contentiousness of (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:19:04 PM EST
    yesterday's comments, is this the ideal moment for both of our blogmeisters to absent themselves?

    Yes, because they left me in charge... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by magster on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:24:45 PM EST
    Slado... BANNNED!!!

    Man is this election stressing me out. My gut is telling me CO is Romney, but that Obama will squeak out a victory. Not good for heartburn.

    Parent

    Show us your papers. (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:33:34 PM EST
    Fine... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by magster on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:37:23 PM EST
    Links (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:54:22 PM EST
    I demand them now

    Parent
    Trump's Big Announcement... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:32:06 PM EST
    Remember Trump is touting this as a game election changer.

    Turns out to be a wager, he will give $5M to Obama's charity if he releases his college and passport documents.

    IOW, birther BS.

    Trump (none / 0) (#59)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:47:48 PM EST
    must be very happy that Obama and Romney are trying to outdo each other in flailing at China. That's been Trump's contribution to the national dialogue.

    I, for one, am not so happy.

    Parent

    Daily pollsters showing Obama bump since debate... (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by magster on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:34:40 PM EST
    here

    Mourdock-gate and TMZ/Allred-gate, however minimal, is keeping Romney from creating a negative Obama narrative. Wish the election was tomorrow.

    Romney must think he is getting punked (none / 0) (#32)
    by indy in sc on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:11:18 PM EST
    right now.  Between Mourdock's comments, Trump and Sarah Palin's turn at analysis from a racist viewpoint--his attempts to have any kind of message today--particularly one critical of Obama--have been completely blunted.

    Romney's "friends" are trying hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    Parent

    Saying shuck and jive is (none / 0) (#41)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:28:22 PM EST
    racist?

    Parent
    Yes. (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:33:43 PM EST
    Oops, I was thinking (none / 0) (#50)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:36:53 PM EST
    of Herman Cain's "shucky ducky".  Busy day.

    Parent
    If it was for..who was it,...Andrew Cuomo? (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:34:32 PM EST
    It sure is for Sarah Palin.

    Parent
    It was when he said it too. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:42:33 PM EST
    Liberals aren't immune.

    Parent
    Agreed. (4.00 / 4) (#73)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:02:44 PM EST
    The negative stereotypes conjured up in my mind by that term include Buckwheat from the "Spanky & Our Gang" comedies and Prissy from "Gone With the Wind" -- all of whom should rightly be left in the dustbin of history.

    This is the 21st century, and it's high time that Republicans started acting like it, and cease pandering to white people's worst fears and instincts about race and ethnicity in this country.

    Parent

    Disagreed (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by unitron on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:43:07 PM EST
    "Shuck and jive" probably originated as a slang term amongst black jazz musicians and other "hep cats" of the era, and implies an intent to deceive, or at least avoid the negative consequences of a full disclosure of all pertinent facts, but the phrase has a "flavor" about it, and though non-blacks are not immune from being accused of it, in the more likely case where a black was, it would be more of a character like Sportin' Life, from Porgy and Bess, that would attract the accusation than Buckwheat or Prissy.  Shucking and jiving takes a certain "style" and energy, which neither of those two had or were likely to acquire upon reaching adulthood.

    Ben Vereen's character in Tenspeed and Brownshoe is a much better example.

    See also the fast handwork and patter of a 3 card monte dealer's attempt to divert attention.

    Parent

    actually, (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by NYShooter on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 11:14:32 PM EST
     a black gentleman on t.v. (he looked very familiar, but I suck at names, sorry) gave the genesis of the "shuck `n jive' phrase. "Shucking" referred to when black slaves were  separating the edible parts of plants from their stalks; peas, corn, nuts, etc. And, as they were doing this strenuous, exhausting labor, they "jived with each other as a way to release negative energy vis-à-vis their slave owners, and a way to try and lift their spirits. You know, probably like fooling around, shooting one-liners at each others.....makes sense.

    Anyway, the term, "shuckin `n jivin,"  was turned into a pejorative slur against blacks for the obvious negative stereotype it engenders.

    Another one that I love is (and, I believe written by Mitt Romney, but I could be wrong) the good old standby, "I got plenty of nuthin and nuthin's plenty for me." I can just hear him whispering to his family, "What do they want???"


    Parent

    It like a lot of racially loaded terms (none / 0) (#191)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Oct 26, 2012 at 02:04:16 PM EST
    is context dependent, its like the term shyster- its  archaic but when used against the historically targeted group is undeniably racist.

    Parent
    People may disagree, but I see a (none / 0) (#149)
    by observed on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:55:06 PM EST
    difference. I bet the  phrase is actually used in New York, so that someone could use it thoughtlessly; however, Alaskans probably wouldn't even know the phrase, generally.

    Parent
    I (none / 0) (#89)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:53:29 PM EST
    don't think so.

    It is descriptive of a behavior pattern.

    Cuomo changed his description to "bob and weave", but I don't think that is really equivalent.

    Some expressions import meanings that have no equal.
    "Bu()sh*t" for example.

    Parent

    Moreover, Cuomo was referring to ... (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:06:53 PM EST
    ... politicians in general when he made the comment, not Obama specifically.

    Parent
    Hey, that is the crowd he chose to run with (none / 0) (#49)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:36:39 PM EST
    Hard to feel sorry for him. If he can't handle them now, wait until, god don't gift me this, he is president.

    Parent
    Agree completely. (none / 0) (#55)
    by indy in sc on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:43:12 PM EST
    He's gotta be pissed though.  :)

    I just hope the Obama campaign can tie him to his friends without overplaying it.  Sometimes when your enemy is self-destructing, you just have to get out of the way and let it happen.

    Parent

    Yup. I think Obama and his immediate team (none / 0) (#79)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:08:43 PM EST
    have been very disciplined about letting them hang themselves. Hope it continues. Just let it go.

    Parent
    A Medicare Rule Change (5.00 / 7) (#38)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:25:13 PM EST
    of vast significance is expected to be approved by a federal district judge as part of an Obama Administration settlement of a nationwide class-action lawsuit  (Jimmo v Sebelius).  Tens of thousands of disabled and chronically ill people may qualify for Medicare coverage that was previously denied. Under the agreement, Medicare will end a longstanding practice of requiring many beneficiaries  to show that they are likely to improve in a reasonable and generally predictable period of time before paying for skilled nursing or therapy services.

    In the future, Medicare will pay for the services if they are needed to maintain the patient's current condition or to prevent or slow further deterioration and help patients to take advantage of new treatments as they are developed.   The new rule could help patients with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, strokes, spinal cord injuries and brain trauma.  

    The new rule could add substantial costs, or, perhaps, actually result in economies if patients are able to get medical and physical therapy services in their homes.  However, in my view, controlling costs needs to take an avenue other than  savings based on denying needed care.

    The new rule will impact Medicare/ACA considerations including  ending Medicare and replacing it with  the already inadequate Romney/Ryan coupon option.   Long term care insurance providers  will be affected, although they have been anxious to  limit the benefits of their policies.

    In any event, the new rule pulls the rug out from under health care cost premises and the arithmetic of politicians.   The clear winners are the patients and their families, who are often  faced with the inhumane prospect of being in Medicare limbo --required  to leave the hospital but not eligible for skilled nursing home care.

    Great post (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:17:59 PM EST
    Thank you

    Parent
    Strange logic (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:42:56 PM EST
    The chair of the parole board, Erika Tindill,.. said it was an odd situation for him (Skakel) to ask for early release while proclaiming innocence of the crime.

    It is odd that a requirement for parole would be admitting guilt.

    I don't have a clue about Skakel's guilt or innocence, although the material posted by Jeralyn moved me to the side of reasonable doubt.

    But for a person who has been convicted of something of which they are truly innocent - as happens all too often - to have to declare themselves guilty of something they didn't do in order to be considered for parole is really twisted imo.

    And what if they declare themselves guilty, and then are denied parole anyway? What then? One would think that a parole board would be more inclined to keep a guilty person incarcerated than an innocent one.

    But what do I know...

    Your logic is sound (none / 0) (#96)
    by brodie on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:10:16 PM EST
    I've never been comfortable with the implied assumption of these parole boards that our legal system is incapable of making a mistake and that a genuinely innocent person can be sitting before them asking for justice.

    Seems Kafkaesque..

    A real miscarriage of justice in the Moxley case, continuing today.  Apparently, contra Dunne and Fuhrman, the high powered Skakels and Kennedys don't have quite the clout with TPTB that they are alleged to have else Michael would certainly have won today.

    Parent

    What (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:45:15 PM EST
    is a "far leftie"?

    You! (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:06:33 PM EST
    You commie pinko leftist sympathizer, you ...

    As for me, I'm just a Democratic Party hack.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Me! (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:33:40 PM EST
    I am so far left, I am considered a pinko-commie-left of the left-dirty f*cking hippie by my friends and family.  I did not support either Obama or Hillary in the primary election four years ago.  I voted for Kucinich, although I even had problems with him.  I held my nose and voted for Obama in the general election, because McCain/Palin were way beyond the pale for me.  
    I also realize that I am way, way to the left of the current Democratic Party.  I don't think that we'll ever get Democrats like George McGovern or Paul Wellstone again, not in my lifetime.

    Parent
    Zorba. (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:43:10 PM EST
    I don't think that we'll ever get Democrats like George McGovern or Paul Wellstone again, not in my lifetime.

    Or Adlai Stevenson, or FDR for that matter.

    But then, what have we left?

    A party machinery that battles another party machinery.
    Each morphing into the other on various occasions and in varying degrees. Each supporting each other when it comes to war and the placing of corporate interests over the welfare of the citizens of this country.

    If the democratic party cannot produce leaders that embrace values that once were the hallmarks of the best of the democratic party, I for one have no interest in it.

    Either one is a democrat, or one isn't.
    The current crop of standard bearers do not deserve that designation in my opinion.

    Parent

    Adlai Stevenson! (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:50:52 PM EST
    Yes, we will never get a Dem like him again.  One of my favorite quotes from him, although it is probably apocryphal, was his supposed answer to a woman who had called out "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!"  And he supposedly answered "It's not enough, Madam, we need a majority!"  He may not actually have said this, but it is certainly something that he might well have said.
    One thing that he actually did say was "Those who corrupt the public mind are just as evil as those who steal from the public purse."
    Speeches of Adlai Ewing Stevenson (1952)
    And that is certainly still true.  Both parties are busy corrupting the public mind.  Although I will admit that the Republicans are worse than the Democrats in this regard (not that this excuses the Democrats in any way).
    Ah, well.


    Parent
    Me too, Zorba. Sometimes it feels mighty (5.00 / 4) (#142)
    by caseyOR on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:33:17 PM EST
    lonely out here on the edge. I have sucked it up so many times and voted for a Democrat only because the alternative was so so so bad. And I will do that again this year.

    I have, for the most part, given up on the idea that the American political system as currently structured is going to produce the results I believe would be best for the country. I've moved on to trying to effect change, small-scale change, in my community. Community self-reliance, local food (including backyard gardens), and pushing local politicians and issues.

    I have not given up on haranguing the faux-liberals in politics, nor have I stopped agitating for things like actually strengthening SS and Medicare and Medicaid and reviving a real worker-centered union movement.

    More and more I wish the pirate ship was a reality instead of a sweet sweet fantasy. Anarcho-syndicalists Unite!!

    Parent

    The existance and threat of the GOP... (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by unitron on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:48:14 PM EST
    "I held my nose and voted for Obama in the general election, because McCain/Palin were way beyond the pale for me."

    ...makes clothespin Democrats of many of us.

    Parent

    And isn't that (none / 0) (#162)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:07:34 PM EST
    a damning indictment of the current Democrats?  Not to mention an even more damning indictment of how totally insane the GOP has become.
    Clothespin Democrats, indeed.  Great phrase, unitron.  I would really wish that clothespins were not required, though.
    {{Sigh}}

    Parent
    PS (none / 0) (#105)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:37:53 PM EST
    And I even had a few problems with both McGovern and Wellstone, as well.     ;-)

    Parent
    I loved Wellstone (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:40:14 PM EST
    He made me believe in everything, if he lead it surely we would conquer that.

    Parent
    Obama in Denver (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by CoralGables on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:49:57 PM EST
    going live on C-SPAN at City Park in Denver at 4:55ET. He sounded a little hoarse in Iowa this morning.

    You can watch online (none / 0) (#65)
    by CoralGables on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:53:37 PM EST
    I really, really would (none / 0) (#68)
    by sj on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:54:32 PM EST
    if that site wasn't blocked at work.  

    Parent
    Good Ohio polling news today (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by CoralGables on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:05:48 PM EST
    Ohio: Obama 49%, Romney 44% (Time)
    Ohio: Obama 47%, Romney 44% (SurveyUSA)
    Ohio: Obama 48%, Romney 48% (Rasmussen)
    Ohio: Obama 46%, Romney 44% (Lake Research)

    The aggregate for the day is Obama +2.5%

    Up to +2.6 now! (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:31:46 PM EST
    every little bit helps (my mood anyway).

    Parent
    With this Repub Sec of State in Ohio (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:28:19 PM EST
    I am really afraid they will steal the vote for Romney....the dirty tricks are on full force, the True the Vote poll intimidators are all ready, as well as the Repub volunteer observers for every single polling place in the state, we have not yet seen what issues will occur with numbers of voting machines per precinct, voters have been sent info with the wrong voting date, and we know the voting machines are easy to hack - not to mention that one of Romney's sons has a financial interest in the machines - it's really scary.

    I am positive that Ken Blackwell, the last Repub Sec of State, gave the state to Bush but that Kerry actually won.

    Only in Ohio in 2004 and Florida were the exit polls "wrong" when compared to the final vote count. The exit polls said Gore won Florida and Kerry won Ohio. I am positive they hacked the voting machines in 2004, since the SCOTUS couldn't do its 2000 decision again.

    If anything happens here, I hope Obama and the Dems litigate to high heaven.

    Parent

    For your enjoyment (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:29:39 PM EST
    Stephen Colbert was interviewed on Fresh Air today, about his favorite music, and musical influences. Really enjoyable. He is such a charmer, and a fellow addict of the musical 'Jesus Christ, Superstar'. Cracked me up. All of my family can also sing every line from start to finish. He says 'At this point I don't even know if it is a good musical, it is just in my DNA.' Also some great Elvis Costello stories.

    That was funny (5.00 / 5) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:56:13 PM EST
    You really are kind of a troll aren't you?

    Do me a favor, save that for over there.

    I know a lot of folks here are dissatisfied with Obama here, but I  think almost all are voting for Obama.

    You moderately worship Obama ? (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:00:41 PM EST
    Huh uh

    If (5.00 / 4) (#102)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:34:24 PM EST
    you are calling Russ Feingold a "lefty dem", I think you are as right-wing as the republicans you feign to detest.

    That's (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:51:05 PM EST
    comment is almost funny.

    You don't think that the fact that millions are unemployed...
    that people are losing their homes...
    that the gap between the very wealthy and the rest of the country continues to grow exponentially... to name a few...

    These are not enough" real flash points" for you?


    If (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:52:15 PM EST
    you detest them so much, why do you emulate them?

    I don't see you as a moderate (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by sj on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:52:51 PM EST
    at all.  Moderation is not your thing.  I see you as a Centrist.  You decide on your left/right polarities and then plunk yourself down in the center.  But you don't do the actual polarities.  You don't pick the real Left because that would show how far Right you really are on the Left/Right spectrum.  You are far from "bat$hit crazy Right".  But there is nothing really Left about you either.  

    Now mind you, there's nothing really wrong your positions except for the fact that you fancy yourself some sort of spokesman for "we liberals".  Which is, frankly, ludicrous.

    More rhetorical gymnastics from ABG. (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:53:08 PM EST
    Why not just come right out and say you didn't agree with the article, instead of presenting your "analysis" as if it was somehow based on it?

    Oh, wait - I know the answer to that one: you thought you could get away with it.

    You (none / 0) (#116)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:20:11 PM EST
    want rhetorical?

    "Angry" referred to Obama as a "black guy named Hussein" in a comment below.

    He has lost his marbles.

    Parent

    The (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:10:47 PM EST
    democratic party doesn't have to do anything.
    It doesn't have to move anywhere.
    It is what it is and does what it does.

    And - I must say, I can't believe that you called Obama a"black guy named Hussein".

    Really sick.


    You say, (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:10:12 PM EST
    that I "wish for a democratic party that is more liberal and less relevant."

    Nothing could be farther from the truth;

    I don't care about the democratic party. I don't wish anything for it or about it.

    I also think that what you said about a democratic party that "can't exist anymore" is self-serving crap.

    If the democratic party were fielding a candidate who actually stood for something, this election wouldn't be even be close.
    As it is, it appears to be becoming a squeaker against a transparent imbecile.

    That's because, imo, people are truly desperate.
    No matter who is at fault, people are losing their homes. People can't find employment. And the candidates can't find time to discuss these matters with depth and candor.

    So the dems are putting up a guy who will sell people out against a repub guy who will sell people out. Ergo - a close contest.

    And if Romney should win, it will be because people want a change from the way things are going. Any change. Whether or not it is effective or efficient,  change at the top is the way that it is usually done.

    Insanity (3.50 / 2) (#144)
    by Politalkix on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:44:02 PM EST
    Lentinel wrote "If the democratic party were fielding a candidate who actually stood for something, this election wouldn't be even be close."

    The Democratic Party did field the kind of candidates you and Zorba wanted-Adlai Stevenson (2 times) and George McGovern. You are right. The elections were not even close. The Democratic Party got trounced each time.
    A wise person once said that "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". What part of it did you not understand?


    Parent

    The (none / 0) (#151)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:02:09 PM EST
    reason Obama won the first time is because of the perception by many that he was indeed in the mold of an FDR. He was mentioned in the same breath as Lincoln, FDR and Kennedy.

    He turned out not to be that, but he did win handily.

    Of course, it was an illusion.
    So it won't work again.
    And so we have what looks to be a close election between two zeros.

    Parent

    Lincoln, FDR and JFK (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by Politalkix on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:20:35 PM EST
    were criticized by many in the left (as well as the right) when they were President. That is the nature of the Presidency. Harry Trueman left office with a 22% approval rating. JFK won the Presidency by a whisker. None of these facts take away anything from the lasting legacies each of these Presidents left. It will be the same with BHO.

    Parent
    Yeah... (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:18:25 PM EST
    That's the trouble with us liberal feminists.

    Spoken like a real red-blooded republican.

    And at the end of the day, ABG (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:46:31 PM EST
    People get the kind of government that they deserve.  If the voters are ignorant and/or apathetic, then we will get a way, way less than ideal government.
    Does this make me happy?  Of course not- you have read enough of my comments to know that I basically am, and have always been, pretty much a socialist.  In my younger days, I have taken to the streets to support those values that are important to me- civil rights, anti-war, feminism, and so on.  And I also realize that I am to the left of even the "old" Democratic Party, much less its current incarnation, which as far as I am concerned, is pretty much the Republican Party of some years ago (no, not the current ones- they are basically a combination of Ayn Rand wannabes and Christianist religious nut cases).
    So where does that leave me?  Thinking and planning, very frankly, to get the he!! out of this country if it continues to go down the toilet.  I am not at all happy with the "two party" system we have here, since I think that both parties are way too beholden to special interests, big business, lobbyists, and so on.  The Dems are better than the Repubs, it is certainly true.  But they are not anywhere near where I am.
    I'm thinking Sweden, Norway, Finland, or possibly New Zealand.

    It has meaning for everyone else (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:54:05 PM EST
    I personally don't care for your commenting style and frankly, have no patience for it.

    I'm instituting a policy right now =- don;t comment in ANY post I write, open thread or otherwise.

    You are banned from my posts.

    All you r comment will be deleted from my threads.

    Go play in someone else's sandbox.

    ABG is banned from my threads (none / 0) (#158)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:37:46 PM EST
    including Open Threads.

    All of his comments will be deleted.

    Anyone who responds to his comments in my threads will also be banned from my threads.

    I've had it.

    I don't want to see him ever again.

    And those of you who enjoy playing his stupid games can hit the road as well.

    This policy applies only to my threads and open threads.

    Jeralyn will institute her own policies as she see fit in her threads.


    Parent

    This (none / 0) (#163)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:16:34 PM EST
    Is Jeralyn's thread. Why are u deleting comments here?

    U kind of lost it tonight.  No one was even addressing u and u came in and went nuts.

    Parent

    You're right (none / 0) (#165)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:18:15 PM EST
    Too late now though.

    Parent
    Dude (1.00 / 1) (#166)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:27:26 PM EST
    I don't even know what set u off.  Your first statement to me in this thread (filled with lots of thoughtful discussion on the topic I started) was to call me a troll.  Them when I dared to push back (apparently I am just supposed to take you calling me names like the kid in full metal jacket) you start deleting and banning and what not.

    I broke no rule.  You can disagree but there is nothing I said out of bounds.

    You just don't like me and you made a point of jumping on a thread you weren't even involved in to pick a fight and then ban me when I dared fight back. We both know that's what happened and so does anyone who read all of this.

    It's really not all that crucial. Best of luck and no hard feelings to ya.  you haven't responded substantively to anything I say in months, so it's all good.  I'll post on Jeralyn's thread. If she band me ill post elsewhere.  

    it's all good.  it's the Internet.

    but it's a pretty dark day for TL if that's how you are rolling.  I stand behind the fact that everything I wrote today was interesting and sparked real discussion.  No shame in that whatsoever.

    Parent

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:38:05 PM EST
    Forward (none / 0) (#169)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:49:21 PM EST
    Oh, give me a break. (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:20:56 PM EST
    This wasn't about you sharing your perspective; anyone who's suffered through your comments knows what you were up to: finding yet another opportunity to slam those who weren't sufficiently obsequious and loyal to Obama, and who might also have supported you-know-who in the 2008 primaries.

    With you, it's always been about settling, compromising, shutting up and taking the path of least resistance, which is anathema to those of us who came of age at a time when we felt it our responsibility to speak up and fight for the rights and issues that mattered to us.  As an alleged "Angry Black Guy," it's always been a mystery to me why the only thing you seem to be angry about is that we're not being sheep-like enough.

    There are many people who post here who disagree with each other, but I don't know of any who are so consistently dishonest and disingenuous as you are.  I can respect a difference of opinion, but I have no respect for the kinds of rhetorical games you play and the straw-man arguments you make.

    You may be one of the worst ambassadors for Obama I have ever encountered.

    Obama's use of drones (none / 0) (#1)
    by shoephone on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:18:15 PM EST
    is the subject on Warren Olney's "To the Point" this hour on NPR stations.

    Probably in connection with the 3-part (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:56:00 PM EST
    story, the first part of which appears today in the WaPo.

    An excerpt:

    Over the past two years, the Obama administration has been secretly developing a new blueprint for pursuing terrorists, a next-generation targeting list called the "disposition matrix."

    The matrix contains the names of terrorism suspects arrayed against an accounting of the resources being marshaled to track them down, including sealed indictments and clandestine operations. U.S. officials said the database is designed to go beyond existing kill lists, mapping plans for the "disposition" of suspects beyond the reach of American drones.

    [snip]

    Meanwhile, a significant milestone looms: The number of militants and civilians killed in the drone campaign over the past 10 years will soon exceed 3,000 by certain estimates, surpassing the number of people al-Qaeda killed in the Sept. 11 attacks.

    [snip]

    Privately, officials acknowledge that the development of the matrix is part of a series of moves, in Washington and overseas, to embed counterterrorism tools into U.S. policy for the long haul.

    White House counterterrorism adviser John O. Brennan is seeking to codify the administration's approach to generating capture/kill lists, part of a broader effort to guide future administrations through the counterterrorism processes that Obama has embraced.

    CIA Director David H. Petraeus is pushing for an expansion of the agency's fleet of armed drones, U.S. officials said. The proposal, which would need White House approval, reflects the agency's transformation into a paramilitary force, and makes clear that it does not intend to dismantle its drone program and return to its pre-Sept. 11 focus on gathering intelligence.

    And here's a chilling observation from Marcy Wheeler, via David Dayen:

    Marcy Wheeler points out that, in addition to institutionalizing the targeted killing as if it's just another form you have to fill out in the White House, the executive branch has set it up in such a way as to stay deliberately beyond Congressional oversight. John Brennan, an unelected appointee without Senate confirmation, holds most of this power in his hands.

    Makes me want to throw up, but I'm sure we can cue the inevitable defense of drones, the justifications for the lack of oversight and accountability and the benefits of situational ethics and selective observation of the rule of law.

    Parent

    The situational ethics charge (none / 0) (#140)
    by Politalkix on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:28:11 PM EST
    is misplaced in this case.
    Can any one explain to me why
     (1) some one like Anwar-al-Alwaki did not take advantage of his American citizenship to non-violently persuade Americans to understand his disagreements with American foreign policy.
     (2) why Glenn Greenwald never speaks out against horrific human rights violations committed by terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda, Taliban, etc but works with Pakistani politicians like Imran Khan who support these terrorists, to denounce our government's (which is extremely sensitive about civilian deaths) policies.


    Parent
    Well, I have a question for you: (5.00 / 3) (#184)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 10:52:21 AM EST
    do you think, given the way the US had been handling things like trials and detentions and torture, al-Awlaki had any expectation that his rights as an American citizen would be recognized?  Or that he could get a fair trial?

    As for Glenn, I haven't seem him take the position that al Qaeda and various other groups and countries are not engaging in human rights violations or committing atrocities; his focus has always been on the US's commitment to the principles, constitutional imperatives and rule of law that we hold up to the world as a beacon of democratic freedom, and how our failures in those areas are contributing to and feeding terrorist elements around the world.

    We've set a lot of bad precedents over the last decade, and I'm always a little shocked that so many people - not necessarily you - take for granted that they will never be used domestically - especially since we already know, and have already seen, how policies and actions that were originally undertaken to protect "us" from "them" have been and are being used right here at home - without our permission, without much, if any, accountability or oversight.  And I, at least, have the sinking feeling that this  will be more and more the case, and before we know it, it will just be the new normal - and very, very hard to reverse.

    It's one thing to tell the people you have to do these things to keep them safe from the bad guys, but who is keeping an eye on the rule of law, who is monitoring compliance with court rulings and orders, and who is drawing the line to keep the so-called good guys from becoming bad guys themselves?  Stopping terrorists from blowing up buildings and people is good, but blowing up the foundation of this democracy in the process and holding up the shield of mational security is oxymoronic.

    There are just not enough people trying to keep the government honest - I'm glad Glenn makes the effort, because without knowledge, there will never be accountability.

    Parent

    Why? (none / 0) (#182)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 10:03:23 AM EST
    Let me see: Why didn't any number of people down through history take advantage of their American citizenship to do any number of things? The guy might have been the biggest a-hole on the planet, but the precedent set in killing him is a horrible one. Period. And it will evolve, as these things always do, most likely into a more horrible precedent.

    As for Glenn Greenwald, do you think you'll find him praising the Taliban or AQ ever? No. My guess is that, like most realists, he understands you cannot change people halfway around the globe whose phucked up society you don't belong to, so you attempt to change the only thing you can...you own country's wretched bullsh*t.

    It's not a difficult rhetorical position to parse: one can hate your enemies and still think the way you are going about fighting them is both stupid, counterproductive and against the tenets of your supposedly free country.

    Peace out, man.

    Parent

    I love saying both... (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 10:04:16 AM EST
    ...when I then go name three things. Dope.  

    Parent
    No One Has Answered The Question (none / 0) (#186)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 04:39:06 PM EST
    If there is a terrorist plotting to kill Americans, we know that and the only way to get him is a drone strike, what then?

    Has GG ever answered that question.

    I would respect his work more if he did.  Anyone can say that you are doing it wrong without providing any practical advice as to how to do it right.

    Parent

    No, the question is, who makes (none / 0) (#188)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 05:38:57 PM EST
    sure that the "we know that" part of your hypothetical is valid?  And that the Congress, which has oversight responsibilities, isn't shut out of the process that's supposed to be observed and adhered to?

    When the protocol that's being followed is that the only requirements we need to meet are that the targets are male between the ages of 18 and 35, we have a problem.  

    What next from you, the ticking time bomb?

    Parent

    For some, it's a "24" world... (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by shoephone on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 06:55:50 PM EST
    Instead of election reflection (none / 0) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:44:16 PM EST
    Can we do girl talk?  We haven't done girl talk in forever.

    After getting all the silver taken out of my mouth, the dentist gave me perfect front teeth.  Filled in little chips, fixed em all up.  What to do with perfect teeth?

    A few years ago I let a friend talk me into doing a peel, they burnt my face off.  My daughter's friend is an esthetician though now and they talked me into a 14% TCA and she showed me how to do it myself so I don't pay huge money either.  I don't ever "frost".  Apparently that is too much for me, and I am now peeling and I sort of kind of like it.  And Anne Coulter talking about the ugly girls being Democrats can KMA.

    Now that I know what a peel looks like though when peeling, I did see Andrea Mitchell on the tube with her face falling off this weekend.  Wow, can't you get a few days off Andrea? That was freakin scary :)

    Another item new to me that is kind of cool, my daughter and friends also told me to try LÓreal lash renewal serum.  It works great on them, works well for me.  I used it on my feathering eye brows too for a month and then dyed them back to a more youthful color.  I have eyebrows!!!!  It doesn't change the color of your eyes like Latisse can (scary..no thanks).  Don't know how it works, and it is slightly irritating to your eye when first applied, but I bought more :)

    L'Oreal (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 01:59:38 PM EST
    has some great products and I understand they are owned by Lancome. Their eye cream is better or just as good as anything I have bought at the more expensive department stores.

    Parent
    I am using their mascara now too (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 02:05:51 PM EST
    Mascara often seems to be simply mascara though, or the same old bat guano

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:15:47 PM EST
    for me mascara has actually been one of the few things where I see a difference with the more expensive mascara. I cannot use Great Lash because it smears all over my face but a lot of people can and love it.

    Parent
    I have never been able to use it either (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:45:28 PM EST
    Funny though, it has been around forever.  My daughter recently asked me about it and I told her that it was a staple even before my time.  If I have a preference when it comes to mascara I'd have to give it to Estee Lauder but I usually only get to enjoy it around the holiday seasons when I've splurged for one of their gift sets.

    Parent
    Have you ever gotten your eyebrows (none / 0) (#61)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:49:23 PM EST
    threaded? It hurts like heck but works great. Gets rid of all the strays off to the side of your eyes...I was thinking Mitt could use it. I've had them do my upper lip too.

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:57:11 PM EST
    I've never had enough eyebrows to get crazy with, my lip though lately....hmmmmm :)

    Parent
    ha...that was a recent occurence for me too (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:06:25 PM EST
    Now that you have those nice teeth!

    Parent
    They have fringe (none / 0) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:08:02 PM EST
    Good Article on the Netroots (none / 0) (#39)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:26:45 PM EST
    and its loss of power.

    Link

    It really showed the impact of what happened I think.  On one side you had PUMAs, Edwards folks and  those further left and on the other side you had the Obama folks.

    When Obama won and the PUMAs and other wouldn't let go, a number of things happened.  Many became republicans (writers who left the Confluence, for example). Many became stridently anti-Obama/anti moderate dem.  That is really where the netroots lost power.  Obama (and hatred of Bush) awoke a power beast on the left, but the netroots was confused as to where that power rested.  It was not in the far left but in the moderate left, particularly with Obama occupying office. So when many sites began spending as much time attacking obama for moderate policies as they did attacking republicans, many of us were turned off of netroots blogs and fled to more moderate pastures.   That's what happened to me, which is why the article resonated.  I would come fired up to Susie's site to talk about the latest republican craziness and find myself defending Pelosi and Reid all day. Or pointing out the limits of Obama's ability to get things done.

    We could have learned from the right.  Yeah they don't agree with everything Romney says, but they are unified around us being the enemy.  That allows for a more comfortable discussion among people who disagree internally.

    It's one of the reasons that Obama = Mitt concept is so frustrating.  

    It's that thinking that forced many of us to abandon the netroots.  Hopefully those sites return to power with an understanding of this.  I particularly like Susie Madrak before she turned so many of her posts against Obama.

    Thu funny thing (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by dk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:42:47 PM EST
    is that your reasons for apparently leaving the netroots isn't even covered among the myriad of reasons for the decline in the netroots discussed in the article.

    I don't deny that you have been turned off by people who are not as moderate as you, but whoever wrote the article, based on their research, don't seem to think you were part of the problem.  

    Parent

    What (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:44:06 PM EST
    is a "moderate dem"?

    Parent
    Me (none / 0) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:19:34 PM EST
    What (none / 0) (#86)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:46:59 PM EST
    does that mean Tracy?

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:59:52 PM EST
    Pretty sure my hawkish stance on some things qualifies me as a moderate :)  When I'm with the real hawks though I want you to know they bellow that I'm bleeding of the heart and flaming in the Liberal regions :)

    Parent
    It (none / 0) (#100)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:32:01 PM EST
    has not been my impression that you are a "hawk".

    I think that you feel some conflicts are just.
    I think we may disagree about the value of the conflict in Afghanistan, but I don't characterize your opinion in a manner that would imply that you like to get out there guns ablazin' just for ego or to save face.

    A "moderate" dem means nothing to me.

    In fact, at this point, a "democrat" has lost much if not all of its meaning - seeing as how it has come to embrace indefinite detention without charge or trial, support for the death penalty, busting people for smoking flowers, jailing people who blow the whistle on torturers ... and the like.

    I don't believe in these labels.

    We all have our opinions - and they are not easily categorized.

    Parent

    This is the finest compliment (none / 0) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:37:25 PM EST
    Anyone has paid me in months.  This is based on own valuation though, but thank you for this.  I cherish it.

    Parent
    That this is the message you (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 03:51:28 PM EST
    got from that article just confirms my opinion that you read what you want, not what is there.

    From your link:

    Although the Obama campaign raised a record amount of money online, they never quite made common cause with online activists.

    "It has been a very testy relationship," said Peter Daou, a blogger in the early days of the movement and now a political consultant. "He didn't reach out. That was complained about in 2008, and during his presidency there has been a very bad relationship. They have been dismissive, and you want to look for a reason why the progressive blogosphere has fractured, that is it."

    Once Obama was in office, the hard feelings didn't cool, with a number of lefty bloggers urging their compatriots to rally behind the president, while others continued to try to drag the administration further to the left. When criticism on the blogs of the administration over their failure to push a public option in the health-care debate was reaching a crescendo, then-press secretary Robert Gibbs dismissed the "professional left." Earlier this month, liberal websites lit up trying to drive a story that Mitt Romney had brought an illegal cheat sheet to the first debate. The White House dismissed them as "the tin foil hat crowd."

    [snip]

    "The Netroots had this movement, but Obama didn't even recognize it. He created his own movement," he says. "With Obama winning, and Democrats winning a trifecta"--the House, the Senate, and the presidency--"as an insurgent organizer, you are no longer a part of that. All you can do is hope for the best, and I don't think we got the best."

    Part of the Netroots decline had to do with the inevitable maturing of the movement and the simple evolution of the Internet. Ten years ago the blogs were one of the few places on the Internet where it was possible to find out what was happening in real time, as even many establishment news organizations hadn't figured out how to move their offline print and broadcast products to the Web.

    Did you even read the article?  Or were you just hoping we'd take your analysis as accurate and that we wouldn't read it?

    Sheesh.


    Parent

    and here we were all getting along so nicely... (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:09:35 PM EST
    My daughter likes fairy tales, too (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:14:44 PM EST
    ... and while she doesn't write them, at least she knows the difference between fantasy and reality.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#168)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:38:44 PM EST
    I think it's easier to be oppositional.  Fighting against something is easier.  We haven't heard much from the Tea Party since they took the House.  j

    Does Occupy Wall Street happen without the Netroots?  I mean that in a very general way, but I think without the available and full grown liberal network OWS doesn't go as far as it did.

    The Netroots' role has shifted, and I am sure it will shift again.

    Parent

    That's true. (none / 0) (#118)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:31:07 PM EST
    ABG: "When FDR was blasted for providing a SS program that wasn't liberal enough, the same things were said.  It's what happens when you have strong 15% very conservative, 15% very progressive/liberal, 30% moderate conservative and 30% moderate progressive/liberal. The 15% on each end is always threatening to take their cookies and leave or what have you."

    When it comes to lawmaking and political deliberations, I've always been a proponent of the "three yards and a cloud of dust" approach. The most profound and lasting changes in progressive policy development are often best achieved incrementally.

    Why not be willing to grab half a loaf when it's offered, with the idea that I'm going to come back later at the first opportunity and grab the rest? A portion of something is often better than lots of nothing.

    The "my way or the highway" approach in politics may be pleasing aesthetically to the firebrands amongst us, but it's also a sure-fired way to ensure that you're eventually stranded on the side of the road, and left to wonder why and how the bus departed the scene without you.

    Aloha.

    Three yards and a cloud of (none / 0) (#119)
    by brodie on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:42:50 PM EST
    dust is usually the rule in lawmaking and makes sense in most cases.  Except where you know you have an opening for a fair sized pass downfield near the left hash marks, the play that can also get you either a touchdown or much closer to the goal line and faster.

    Iow the right play should be the one that looks available -- no guarantees of course -- not just the easy play that's safe.

    Respectfully submitted,

    Coach Brodie

    Parent

    Agreed. One must always be prepared ... (none / 0) (#139)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:24:50 PM EST
    ... to take advantage of unforeseen opportunities which may arise.

    When I was working in our legislature for House leadership, that's exactly how we were able to finance the construction of the John A. Burns School of Medicine at the University of Hawaii in 1999, a long-dreamt project that otherwise went unfunded for many years.

    We did so by leveraging the unexpected windfall we received when Big Tobacco agreed to collectively settle the lawsuits brought by the various states. We didn't plan on it, but when the opportunity presented itself, we jumped on it. We left the corpus of funding intact, and used it instead to underwrite a major bond issue.

    Parent

    You may be right (none / 0) (#143)
    by dk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:36:44 PM EST
    but it's also circular reasoning.

    I was referring to your original ... (none / 0) (#147)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:51:24 PM EST
    ... post, which had nothing to do with your (straw) response.

    Thanks (none / 0) (#152)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:03:37 PM EST
    for sharing.