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Thursday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:35:12 AM EST
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I'll be flying solo on Daily Kos Radio from 11 to noon Eastern today. Discussing the debate.

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Open Thread.

< Winning | Romney Admits He Was Wrong About 47% >

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    Thursday Morning Open Thread | 127 comments (127 topical)

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    While everyone (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:01:17 AM EST
    was tied up worrying or arguing the outcome of debates yesterday, Miguel Cabrera won the Triple Crown which last happened before 65% of the US population had been born, and the longest losing streak in major league baseball came to an end

    65%? (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:08:24 AM EST
    Well, that doesn't make me feel old at all.  Nope.  Not at all.  

    Parent
    That 65% number (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:17:31 PM EST
    hurts me as much as 47% hurts Romney

    Parent
    And the Oakland Athletics also became ... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:27:10 AM EST
    ... only the fifth team in major league history to overcome a 13-game deficit in the standings to win a division or league title, claiming the American League West championship on the final day of the regular season. They join the 1914 Boston Braves, the 1951 New York Giants, the 1978 New York Yankees and the 1995 Seattle Mariners as the only teams to have accomplished that feat.

    The A's -- whom oddsmakers had pegged at a 125-1 shot to win the World Series prior to Opening Day -- have been winning at a .680 clip since July 1, and capped their improbable run by becoming the first team ever to make up five games with nine to go, and further sweeping the two-time defending AL champion Texas Rangers before the deliriously happy home folk.

    The A's wull now face the AL Central champion Detroit Tigers in the first round of the league playoffs -- and I wouldn't bet against them.

    Parent

    Sad story out of Oakland last night (none / 0) (#32)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:41:29 AM EST
    On a day that should have been a day to remember for the Oakland A's, relief pitcher Pat Neshek's day old son died yesterday.

    Parent
    Oh, that really is sad... (none / 0) (#33)
    by sj on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:47:02 AM EST


    Parent
    I now have 3 teams in the play offs :) (none / 0) (#52)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:00:35 PM EST


    Parent
    I was a year old for Yaz, baby! (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:15:32 PM EST
    IOW, I am a spring chicken.  Ahem.

    Parent
    "Spec Agent DJ Justice Mix" (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:40:24 AM EST
    in the transition.  I like it.  

    This is from US News.

    Presidents have to be careful, sometimes, dropping to the same attack level as their challengers. It makes them look as though they are on the same level, instead of one of them being in charge of the country. There's something to be said about looking presidential. And in Obama's case, he has the added complication of not looking angry--being the angry black man in politics is far more loaded than being the angry white guy. And much of Obama's appeal is in his basic likability, not a small thing in an election. Al Gore may have "beaten" George W. Bush on debate points when the two men faced off, but all that sighing and smarty-pants demeanor made Bush the more appealing choice.

    I agree with this actually.  The Obama team has for 4 years adopted a strategy of feints, taking punches, etc.  I am not an 11th dimensional chess person but I really wonder if this isn't part of some strategy.  To give away the debate since the media wanted Mitt to win anyway, to set up better for the next debate, who knows.  The idea that he bombed and that's all there is to it just doesn't make sense to me.  But I may be wrong.

    On another level (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:46:51 AM EST
    Watching the debate last night I was not expecting an Obama knock out.

     Many say that Romney came away the winner because he seemed sure footed and articulate. To me, maybe I have a tin ear or something, he sounded like a car salesman, or one of the late night gadget peddlers.

    I used to work with investment bankers when I did public finance. They had this exact style. Talking fast, saying nothing and obfuscating. To many of my colleagues, they seemed like winners. Articulate. Smart. But their tactic was never to inform, it was to overpower. Somehow, overpowering with bubble gum and mirror is what we want.  

    I kept thinking of the Popiel peddlers:  Romney kept adding one more thing, the dicer, the jullienne, the pocket fisherman, on and on.  

    I have a visceral repulsion against the glib fast talking hustler. But I do think that this works with the pundits, fanboys and political horse race set.  

    I thought he was a spaz... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by magster on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:19:26 AM EST
    I heard Obama talked for 4 minutes longer, but I wonder what the word count was. I would venture 2:1 in Romney's favor over ... errrr President errrr Obama.

    Parent
    I agree, Stellaaa (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:20:36 AM EST
    And I like your "Popiel peddlers" analogy.  Spot on!
    But the big question isn't how this works with the pundits and fanboys, etc, but how this works with actual voters.  I hope my pessimism is wrong, but voters have been bamboozled into voting against their own self-interests, and against all logic and reason, far, far too often in the past.  

    Parent
    I had someone come into my office (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:19:34 PM EST
    this morning whose reaction was based almost solely on style - because, as she admits, she and her husband really aren't versed in the issues so had no way to judge the content of the debate.

    I tend to think there are more people like her than there are people like us; the question is, does that matter?  Is it going to change anything?  Maybe it matters with the undecideds.

    I wish I knew, and further wish that this wasn't the level to which the political process has sunk - and will continue to sink.  Yet, here we are...

    I really can't express how stupefyingly depressing it all is, but that pretty much describes how I felt watching that debate.

    Parent

    Question is (none / 0) (#21)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:24:46 AM EST
    will the voters go with their gut feeling, or go with what the pundit class tells them a winner is?  

    This is where the pundits with the macho sport analogies and war like culture fail to educate but instead perpetuate the bad behavior.  What did they want?  For Obama to go Jerry Springer on Mitt?  I am sure there is an in between.  

    Obama's flub was being soft on the Social Security and Medicare contrast by trying to be polite.  

    Parent

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:47:37 AM EST
    But one bright spot for the Obama campaign is that the fact-checking post-mortems have definitely not been kind to Mitt Romney, particularly with his specious and false claims regarding Medicare and the Affordable Care Act. If the mainstream media begin to run with that meme and the Obama campaign aggressively presses it home, whatever favorable impressions Romney garnered last night might well quickly dissipate.

    Parent
    Perfect description (none / 0) (#24)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:31:11 AM EST
    But their tactic was never to inform, it was to overpower.

    That was how it seemed to me - just overwhelm with the manic energy and the BS. Sadly, it is sometimes an effective sales strategy.

    I think the difference in styles was so extreme, that if you even remotely prefer the manic style, as of course most TV people do, it looks like a clear win for someone with that style. If Obama had even come up to Romney's energy level 50% it would have been another story.

    Parent

    Pretty much says it all (none / 0) (#77)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:35:32 PM EST
    Bill Keller

    Scoring Obama's Debacle

    The snap judgment I tweeted after last night's debate was:

     "On points (facts aside): Romney A-/B+ (shameless but masterful), Obama C+ (missed every opportunity), Lehrer D (road kill)."

    (Emphasis mine)

    Parent

    Last Waltz Revisited... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:12:01 AM EST
    Very Last Waltzy vibe at the Love for Levon show last night...peep this insane set list, exceeding all expectations...

    1. "The Shape I'm In," Warren Haynes
    1. "Long Black Veil," Gregg Allman and Warren Haynes
    2. "Trouble in Mind," Jorma Kaukonen and Barry Mitterhoff
    3. "This Wheel's on Fire," the Midnight Ramble Band (Larry Campbell on vocals)
    4. "Little Birds," the Midnight Ramble Band (Amy Helm and Teresa Williams on vocals)
    5. "Listening to Levon," Marc Cohn
    6. "Move Along Train," Mavis Staples
    7. "Life is a Carnival," Allen Toussaint, Jaimoe
    8. "When I Paint My Masterpiece," John Prine, Garth Hudson
    9. "Anna Lee," Bruce Hornsby
    10. "Ain't Got No Home," Jakob Dylan and Rami Jaffee of the Wallflowers
    11. "Whispering Pines," Lucinda Williams
    12. "Rag Mama Rag," John Hiatt, Mike Gordon
    (Intermission)
    1. "Baby Don't You Do It," David Bromberg and Joan Osborne
    2. "I Shall Be Released," Grace Potter
    3. "Tears of Rage," Ray LaMontagne, John Mayer
    4. "Rockin' Chair," Dierks Bentley, Jon Randall, Jessi Alexander
    5. "Chest Fever," Dierks Bentley, Jon Randall, Jessi Alexander, Garth Hudson
    6. "A Train Robbery," Eric Church
    7. "Get Up Jake," Eric Church
    8. "Tennessee Jed," Larry Campbell, John Mayer
    9. "Up on Cripple Creek," Joe Walsh, Robert Randolph
    10. "Ophelia," My Morning Jacket
    11. "It Makes No Difference," My Morning Jacket
    12. "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down," Roger Waters with My Morning Jacket
    13. "Wide River to Cross," Roger Waters and Amy Helm
    14. "The Weight," Ensemble

    I hear the show will be out on DVD, I strongly urge all heads to lock that sh*t up.

    It felt like the center of the beautiful universe, so joyous, so alive...Levon would have been so proud.  

    That debate nonsense may as well have been light years away...ahhh, bliss.  

    So glad to hear John Prine's (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:28:07 PM EST
    still kickin' it. A very unjustly forgotten great song writer/performer and "Americana" to the bone..

    I bet Hiatt did a great Rag Mama Rag; that's a song he could've written..

    Parent

    Prine & Garth's.... (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:15:35 PM EST
    "Paint My Masterpiece"...it was a gutteral moody version, somber.  Some tears were flowing.

    Hiatt sure did jondee...a perfect selection for his vocal stylings.

    Parent

    btw, fwiw, (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:24:08 PM EST
    I always thought the opening lines in "The Night they Drove Old Dixie Down" were:

    "Virgil Cain is my name and I served on the Danville train,
    Till Stonewall's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again."

    But just now, due to this thread, I realized that that didn't make any sense as Stonewall obviously fought for Lee and the Confederacy and wouldn't tear up his own rail tracks.

    Quick google shows that it was Union General George Stoneman who tore up the tracks and is named in the song...

    Parent

    Joan Baez got other lyrics (none / 0) (#86)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:34:24 PM EST
    wrong too.  She learned the song from listening to it....

    Parent
    Just because... (none / 0) (#87)
    by magster on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:36:36 PM EST
    ... Levon's so awesome...

    Parent
    ha! I always though it was 'so much cavalry' (none / 0) (#88)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:44:59 PM EST
    Is that what Joan Baez sings?

    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#90)
    by sj on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:52:25 PM EST
    That's what Joan Baez sings.

    Parent
    Thx. Glad I'm not crazy. Now, (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:48:46 PM EST
    'Scuse me while I kiss this guy

    Parent
    "Secret Asian Man..." (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by DFLer on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:26:19 PM EST


    Parent
    Cool that Jakob Dylan did "I Ain't Got (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Peter G on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:59:36 PM EST
    No Home."  That's a Woody Guthrie song, which Jakob's father performed, backed by The Band, at the Memorial Concert at Carnegie Hall in 1968.  Yes, I was there (and have the album).

    Parent
    Can't picture Roger Waters singing the ... (none / 0) (#22)
    by magster on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:25:28 AM EST
    ... Night They Drove Old Dixie down. Levon really belts out the chorus and the na na na's, and Waters singing talent is sounding like a believably insane englishman.

    Parent
    Sounded great.... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:38:30 AM EST
    of course no one can ever match Levon's unique soulful growl, Roger had alotta help, namely 10-12 thousand fans.

    My Morning Jacket really impressed me...musically they are well suited to carry the torch.

    Singing wise, Ray LaMontagne f*ckin' killed "Tears of Rage"...no easy task with the a Richard Manuel standard set.


    Parent

    wow, glad you got to see that! (none / 0) (#25)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:32:09 AM EST
    I will be snapping up the DVD as soon as possible.

    Parent
    So am I... (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:49:00 AM EST
    I mean deep cuts like "Whispering Pines" sung by Lucinda, or "Rocking Chair" with Dierks?  Plus all the can't miss classics?  It's rarer than Haley's Comet.

    All the TL rockophiles were with me in spirit;)


    Parent

    Thanks for the set list! (none / 0) (#26)
    by shoephone on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:33:29 AM EST
    I'll bet you were in 7th heaven all night.

    #'s 9, 11, and 13 interest me the most. Joan Osborne? Interesting choice on that one.

    The only one there I can't stomach is John Mayer, in any form, but that's just me.

    Parent

    I'm just waiting (waiting) (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by magster on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:38:45 AM EST
    waiting on the world to change.

    Not going to do it myself... too lazy and uninterested.

    His lyrics are horrid.

    Parent

    I tell ya... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:39:56 AM EST
    the kid can play...his catalog is a piss-poor reflection of his immense talent.  They jammed the hell outta "Tennessee Jed".

    Parent
    I've always had that impression (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:32:00 PM EST
    of Mayer as well..

    The boy can play. Heard him do a version of Marley's Lively Up Yourself once that did more-than-justice to the original..

    Just the fact that he was there tells you alot..

    Parent

    I think he has tremendous potential... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:06:45 PM EST
    as bandleader of a rock-n-roll revue, should he choose to go that route...not sure songwriting is his bag, but he's still very young, he could grow into it.


    Parent
    Shoulda been more clear (none / 0) (#82)
    by shoephone on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:18:04 PM EST
    I can't stand his singing, on any song. That milktoast laryngitis voice of his drives me up the wall. And I just can't stand... him. Can he play? Yes, he can, and I am a guitarist and recognize his talent and chops there.

    But I still can't tolerate the rest of him.

    Parent

    Killer. (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:38:33 AM EST


    Parent
    Exceeded all expectations... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:55:29 AM EST
    tailgating we were wondering if it was gonna be a some Levon/Band and some of the performers original work, or all Levon/Band...hoping for the latter.  We got it in spades.

    I can't pick a favorite, but it mighta been Joe Walsh/Robert Randolph's "Cripple Creek".  It's a song I'd always hoped to hear Levon sing live, but he never played it in all the shows I went to.  Joe Walsh was the perfect guy to stand in...he had fun with it.

    Parent

    "Cripple Creek." Good song. But (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:36:25 PM EST
    bluegrass.  

    Parent
    "Cripple Creek" is a bluegrass song, (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:34:55 PM EST
    however this song is "Up On Cripple Creek."

    Parent
    Thanks.. (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:40:40 PM EST
    should not abbreviate, for Oculus' sake;)

    Parent
    BTW, "Swan Lake" was wonderful. (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:07:35 PM EST


    Parent
    Glad you enjoyed! I spent 3 hours (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:13:03 PM EST
    at football practice last night with my son...

    Parent
    No. (none / 0) (#50)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:40:02 PM EST


    Parent
    A The Band hybrid.. (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:45:48 PM EST
    like so many of their songs..

    Parent
    Cripple Creek... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:39:49 PM EST
    brings the funk!  Garth Hudson + Clavinet + Wah-Wah Pedal = uniquely funky sh*t.  

    Parent
    Walsh always has (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:38:08 PM EST
    a sense of fun and playfulness, ya gotta give him that..

    If I remember correctly, he and Levon and Danko played in Ringo's Allstar Band for a tour or two.

    Parent

    Well I at least recognize 3 names (none / 0) (#37)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:55:27 AM EST
    in that list:  Gregg Allman, Joe Walsh (the musician), and Jorma (Something), who I believe was the lead guitarist in the Jefferson Airplane.

    Otherwise I have no clue ...

    Parent

    Jorma Kaukonen & Hot (f**n) Tuna. (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:22:25 PM EST
    "Hesitation Blues" and a song that must be near and dear to kdog's heart, "Prohibition Blues."

    Parent
    And the inimitable (none / 0) (#47)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:33:22 PM EST
    "Death Don't Have No Mercy."

    Parent
    and the Yankees won too... (none / 0) (#53)
    by fishcamp on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:04:28 PM EST


    Parent
    F*ck the Yankees... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:18:12 PM EST
    We were all rebels last night...the Ozarks swallowed the Northeast, for 3 and a half hours anyway;)

    Parent
    B careful Kdog... (none / 0) (#74)
    by fishcamp on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:18:19 PM EST
    the ghost of Phil Rizzuto will come and git U...

    Parent
    He don't scare me... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:19:30 PM EST
    Bud Harrelson has my back;)

    Parent
    According to news reports (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:12:45 PM EST
    Obama back on the stump today is in full l'esprit de l'escalier mode, using some punchy attack lines he probably should have used, but didn't think of or forgot, last night.

    Streaming it now from C-SPAN (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by RonK Seattle on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:09:26 PM EST
    He's back in the groove, and a couple hundred thousand will see it, vs 60 million last night.

    His hair is also natural salt-n-pepper, vs last night's over-processed look.

    And his face looks natural, vs last night's excess makeup that made him look like Claymation Obama (at least in HD).

    Parent

    My favorite.... (none / 0) (#59)
    by magster on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:23:08 PM EST
    `Thank Goodness Somebody Is Finally Getting Tough On Big Bird'

    wish Obama said that last night.

    Maybe we need Jon Stewart or someone quicker on their fees to run in 2016

    Parent

    know who would have said that? (none / 0) (#98)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 05:27:08 PM EST
    JFK, with a big grin

    Parent
    Hah! So I wasn't crazy (none / 0) (#76)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:31:46 PM EST
    after all -- someone else noticed something about his hair.  Had an unusual waxy kind of sheen.

    And I missed the face -- which I naturally blame on being socio-economically behind the curve in not having pulled the trigger yet on one of them fancy HD big screen teevees.

    And had O won on points last night, the processed hair and the clay makeup would have made it to the top of the Corp media hot debate topics list.

    Parent

    Matt Stoller (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:34:00 PM EST
    wasn't he quite the Obama fan four years ago?

    now . . . maybe not so much

    Obama is at his best when he is talking about himself and his family, because that's what he likes and believes in. That's why his 2008 campaign worked, because it was all framed around Obama The Savior. It was mass narcissism (and even then, he only narrowly beat John McCain). If you're wondering why Obama is a bad speaker now, where the old Obama went, just recognize that he's only a great speaker when it's all about him, because that's where his interest is. The talent is there, the character, not.
    No, (none / 0) (#67)
    by sj on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:51:58 PM EST
    he wasn't the huge Obama Fan 4 years ago.  He's tried to be supportive since, but his starting position was never as a disciple of "Obama The Savior".

    Parent
    The paragraph and a half that precedes (none / 0) (#80)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:09:23 PM EST
    what you quoted makes me want to say, "So, Matt - tell us how you really feel..."

    The reason Obama did poorly is simple. He is bad at governing America. He hasn't solved the foreclosure crisis, the jobs crisis, the climate crisis, the energy crisis, the financial crisis, the debt crisis, the health care crisis, or really, anything.  He can't point to very much that Americans broadly like, except killing Bin Laden and the auto bailout. His second term agenda is to cut Social Security, Medicare, frack, cut corporate taxes, bust more teachers unions and pass more neoliberal trade agreements. He is proud of this record. So are his people. But he knows he can't run on it because it's unpopular, so instead, he presented himself as a nice likeable guy.

    He frequently complimented Romney, agreed with him on most core policy arguments, and just generally avoided pointing out the many times Romney was lying. He didn't bring up social issues like abortion, or really, any weak spots for Romney. He tried to present himself as a fighter for the middle class, but he doesn't actually respect people he perceives have less strength than he does. Obama believes in pity for the middle class, not respect. Nor does Obama like Romney. So Obama came off passive and unpersuasive, making a case he didn't believe in. It's like George W. Bush, who couldn't put two words together fluently unless he was talking death and destruction, and then he was a virtuoso rhetorician.

    Yowch.

    Parent

    Well, with Sununu blowing racist dogwhistles.... (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by magster on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:39:13 PM EST
    on behalf of Romney and the word getting out that Romney lied to win, maybe last night's "loss" won't amount to a hill of beans.

    I finally looked this up (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by sj on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:09:48 PM EST
    (Links, my friend.  Links!).  Or, alternatively, those racist dogwhistles could be effective.  That's not unheard of.

    Parent
    He all but called him "shiftless" (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by magster on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:51:51 PM EST
    Way to bring back attention to the fact that Republicans are d!cks, to repeat the developing meme from Markos.

    Parent
    Gee, ya' think? (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:25:57 PM EST
    Obama is a black man (well, he's bi-racial, but to the ignorant, he's "black").  So if he tones it down, he's shiftless.  If, on the other hand, he had attacked forcefully, the dog-whistles would have been about the "angry black man."  Either way, Obama can't win.
    And if anyone thinks that racism is not alive and well in this country, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.  

    Parent
    They're pushing the angry (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:30:25 PM EST
    Nat Turner/Jeremiah Wright meme hot 'n heavy again as we speak..

    I have a feeling that has something to do with O not going more on the offensive last night..

    Parent

    The thing is, it is possible to be evince (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 03:47:17 PM EST
    passion for an issue, and be strong in one's support of it, without coming across as angry; Bill Clinton, for example, was and still is a master at it.

    Obama didn't need to pound on the podium, or raise his voice - he just needed to act like he actually cared, deeply, about the policies he says he favors.  And if all he had done in the face of the Romney lie machine was to say, "now, see - that's where you're just wrong, and here's why" before decimating the BS, he'd have had control and command of the debate.

    Parent

    I (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by lentinel on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 05:31:07 PM EST
    think that you have located the problem.

    He, "needed to act as if he actually cared deeply about the policies he says he favors."

    That's about the best he could have done. Act.

    Because I just don't get the impression that he does in fact care deeply about the positions he is supposed to favor.

    Parent

    Told my hubby (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Amiss on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:02:42 PM EST
    tonight at the dinner table that if Obama is going to participate in these debates and I am wondering seriously if he "wants" to win the election he needed to seriously take a lot of classes with Bill.

    Parent
    I certainly (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 07:57:32 PM EST
    wondered last night what the heck Obama was thinking when he showed up or really did not show up. Of course, this debate performance does not come close to in bad debate performances to Bush's second debate in 2004. That one was downright embarrassing for everybody. Bush looked like a trained monkey pounding the pulpit and you could see it on Laura's face. Theresa Kerry even seemed embarrassed for them.

    Parent
    How do you do that? (none / 0) (#91)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 04:00:09 PM EST
    w/o talking over the other person and thereby not accomplishing the goal?

    Or did you think Mitt would've just let Obama speak?

    Parent

    As Anne said (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by sj on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 04:20:36 PM EST
    watch Bill Clinton.

    Parent
    Agree with Anne. (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 04:22:47 PM EST
    There's a nice Goldilocks zone in there that's not too hard to find for most successful pols at that level, which can range from firm consistent just the facts rebuttal to using rebuttal with a bit of humor or ridicule, none of which need invoke the angry black man imagery.

    Ted Kennedy in his debate used ridicule -- Multiple Choice Mitt.  O could have referenced Etch A Sketch Mitt on the tax cut issue.  Or gone with the Who is this guy? doppleganger line he's using effectively on the stump today.  Other specific examples of what he should have said -- see the D Frum piece (cited elsewhere this blog) at DB today.

    But no -- apparently the strategy going in (per Fluff quoted today) was Just don't lose.  Iow, the old prevent defense strategy -- which usually on the gridiron ends up disastrously.

    Obama is famously a sports guy -- wtf was he thinking?

    Parent

    the old prevent defense strategy (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 05:06:36 PM EST
    sucks. Generally the point I turn off the game. What's the point of watching . . .

    Parent
    As much as it might have seemed like (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 05:01:41 PM EST
    these two were un-moderated, there was some semblance of order, as in each getting some period of time to speak, uninterrupted by anyone trying to talk over him.

    So, all Obama needed to do was say, "Governor Romney just told us that [fill in the blank]; that's just wrong, and here's why:"

    Come on - it's really not that hard, and in any event, this is what preparation is for, isn't it?  Shouldn't John Kerry have given Obama the experience of dealing with a Mitt Romney trying to butt in and talk over him?  I think so.

    Parent

    When (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by lentinel on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 05:32:56 PM EST
    I think of what John Kerry let W. get away with...
    I dunno.

    He wouldn't have been my go-to person for debate advice.

    Parent

    I know, right? (none / 0) (#94)
    by sj on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 04:36:41 PM EST
    I'm acutally flabbergasted.  The debate lies?  Not even surprised, but jeez... I can't believe we have regressed so much as a society that he said that in public.

    Parent
    I don't think that we have (none / 0) (#102)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 05:57:25 PM EST
    regressed, sj, but instead that it is becoming much more overt.
    We have always had racism in this country, but at least for a few years, it was considered socially unacceptable to display it quite so blatantly.  They may dress it up in "dog-whistles," but it's becoming more and more obvious.
    We have a friend who is always saying that "humans are a near miss."  We're actually a pretty far miss, as far as I'm concerned.  We're not so very far from the days when, if you were not of "my tribe" or my group, if you did not look like me, act like me, think like me, then you were "the enemy" and must be destroyed.
    {{Sigh}}

    Parent
    Wow. (none / 0) (#69)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:55:32 PM EST
    Sununu, wow.

    Parent
    Re: Green Energy Spending (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by shoephone on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 05:43:12 PM EST
    Does anyone know the source for Romney's claim that Obama has spent $90 billion on wind and solar? I'm not finding it anywhere. I'm doubting it's true. I think that was just another one of Romney's rehearsed "zingers" where he got to tag Obama with the Solyndra thing. And I don't remember Obama ever refuting him or challenging him on any energy issues. Why didn't he say we NEED to be funding new solutions to our energy needs because oil & gas & coal are finite, unsustainable resources? That green energy is a big part of the tech future and will create millions of jobs??? Oh, wait...Obama has that "clean coal" nonsense in his column... But still. I was so disappointed he didn't hit one out of the park on green energy. He had numerous openings.

    Obama's DOE has funded 33 green energy (none / 0) (#104)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:08:02 PM EST
    projects at a total cost of $16 billion, significantly less than Romney's number.

    Of those 33 projects, 3 have failed,Solyndra among them. This works out to a failure rate of 9%.

    I got these number from Kevin Drum.

    As to why Obama didn't counter that lie of Mitt's, well, I don't know.

    Parent

    Thanks for the link, Casey (none / 0) (#105)
    by shoephone on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:14:29 PM EST
    Romney's numbers are so far off I can't believe Obama let that go!  

    Parent
    I know. Mitt was lying not just about (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:18:04 PM EST
    the total cost, but also about the success/failure rate. Why wouldn't Obama set the record straight on this? It was such an egregious lie.

    Parent
    Perhaps it left him a bit (none / 0) (#107)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:24:02 PM EST
    speechless, or gave him a brain WTF! burp?

    Parent
    I don't think that Obama needed (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:34:20 PM EST
    to fact check Romney real time during the debate.  That can be, and is being, done after the debate.

    The idea is to drive your message during the debate.  Make Mitt respond to Obama's charges, not play defense and respond to every Romney charge. Ignore Mitt's mischief and go on offense and level your own charges, clearly and repeatedly.  You have control over your own message.

    Parent

    But the green energy issue (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by shoephone on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:58:29 PM EST
    is one of the few issues where Obama can take some well-deserved credit. Romney is just totally backwards on it and the wacko conservative base still can't acknowlege climate change is, in part, due to our historically messed up energy policies. That $90 billion claim should have been swiftly demolished during the debate. All this next day response stuff from the Obama camp is leaving me with little confidence that they know how to play the game of politics.

    Parent
    Those are the kinds of numbers Obama (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 07:05:52 PM EST
    should have engraved on his brain - but even if he did, if he comes back at Romney with right numbers, Romney can just come back at Obama with a version, of "gee, I thought you were paying lip service to green energy at $90 billion, and now you're telling me it was less than 20% of that number?  That doesn't translate to being serious about green energy to me."

    Not much of a play left for Obama.

    Parent

    No play left there??? (none / 0) (#113)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 07:30:59 PM EST
    How about:  "Most folks out there would rightly consider $90b a fair chunk of change, certainly a good start.  Might even have been more there, but every time Dems go to work a deal with Rs, all we hear from your party is 'Drill baby drill'.  And have you Gov ever proposed a green program of that size?"

    (actually my imperfect memory of the actual exchange had Mitt complaining about the size of the govt investment by Obama as several of the green cos eventually went under, thus in Mitt's calculation a complete waste of taxpayers money, possibly negligently squandered by inadequately researching the firms)

    Parent

    From the NYTimes: (none / 0) (#112)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 07:14:44 PM EST
    First, Mr. Romney asserted that President Obama had "provided $90 billion in breaks to the green energy world." This was a piece of masterful spin, though not an outright falsehood. As part of the $800 billion 2009 stimulus package, the administration provided about $90 billion in green energy programs that went well beyond tax breaks for the wind and solar ventures that Mr. Romney finds so objectionable - a broad array of grants, loans and demonstration projects aimed at everything from updating the energy grid to improving mass transit to encouraging cleaner cars to weatherizing older buildings to constructing power plants capable of capturing and storing greenhouse gases.


    Parent
    Factcheck.org caught this one, too (none / 0) (#116)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:37:35 PM EST
    In summary, Romney said a lot about the $90 billion in stimulus spending on clean energy -- and very little of it was accurate.

    "Romney's Clean Energy Whoppers".

    Parent

    It's easier to get to $90 Billion if (none / 0) (#123)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    you add in the amounts of money lost by investors in Solar and Wind power companies, like First Solar (FSLR) and Broadwind Energy (BWEN)

    Parent
    Unemployment Rate - 7.8% (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 09:36:03 AM EST

    I am sure this will be discussed in the open thread but this is the zone I hoped we'd be in when predictions were being made a few years back.

    Getting to the 7's will resonate given the high of 10.1% before the dem policies kicked in.

    Also good news, this drop wasn't due to work force drop outs.

    Really is good news (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:45:18 AM EST
    Also puts it in the range of what it was when Reagan was re-elected (7.2% on election day 1984).

    Parent
    LOL Charlie Pierce (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:51:21 AM EST
    "I swear I could hear the sighs of relief all the way from Sesame Street."

    Parent
    Sully thinks Obama (none / 0) (#2)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:03:38 AM EST
    "may have even lost the election tonight"!  

    With "friends" like these...

    I think that's overreaction but ... (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Demi Moaned on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:11:48 AM EST
    Romney surely improved his standing with the electorate. As to who 'won' the debate, I have to disagree with BTD. For those of us who are well-informed of the facts, it's clear that Romney's performance was filled with lies and evasions. But people who are already well-informed are unlikely to be swayed by the debates. Without an independent frame of reference, there's a lot that was appealing about Romney.

    Parent
    Yep. He probably came off (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:06:28 PM EST
    to many not too informed as as well informed, reasonable and moderate, and as someone with plenty of specifics to deal with our problems --presented in fast paced used car salesman manner with a flurry of facts pouring out so quickly there's no time for the viewer to think.

    We really needed a sharp and well prepared and aggressive O to rebut again and again on Mitt's slippery use of the facts and snow job delivery.

    Or in the alternative an alert and not docile and over the hill moderator -- or preferably a panel of actual no nonsense journalists of the kind seen for instance in the 1976 Carter-Ford debates.

    Parent

    Sully is not a friend (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:12:07 AM EST
    He does favor marriage equality.

    Otherwise, he is quite authoritarian.  

    Parent

    Sully (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:54:42 AM EST
    has been one of Obama's biggest apologists and an a bot matched by none.

    I don't think that Sully is a friend to liberals in general but he certainly has had a case of Obamalove for years now.

    Parent

    I think he meant ... (none / 0) (#9)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:29:45 AM EST
    ... that Sully is a "friend" of Obama.

    Parent
    Sully is to serious analysis... (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:15:25 AM EST
    ...what rust is to metal.

    Parent
    Rust is a form of ... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:56:13 AM EST
    oxidation.  

    Sully's breathless analyses are clearly created without the aid of oxygen.


    Parent

    That might be enough (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by sj on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:25:25 AM EST
    to shake ABG's faith in Sully.

    Parent
    Ha! (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:29:06 AM EST
    One can dream...

    Parent
    Sully (none / 0) (#125)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:27:03 AM EST
    worries.  I worry too.  I was shaken by how poorly Obama did in the debate, but didn't go as far as Sullivan.  

    If you are looking for commentary from a socially liberal/fiscally sliiightly left leaning source, Sully is a good source. I go to him when I want that viewpoint.

    For fans of the President, he's a good source as well.  He provides analysis with a positive spin for the president in most situations, and he's been right a great deal (particularly when Obama was looking shaky during the primaries and he suggested that Obama is a long view sort of candidate).

    In any event, I come here, greenwald, atrios, etc. for commentary further left, I go to sully, chait, klein, Cohn and that band of pundits for the moderate/slighly left take, I go to Frum, Bill Bennett and Josh Barro for the moderate right take, and I hit the NRO to see what the sane but extreme far right thinks.

    Then I repeat.

    All of those sources are equally valuable to me.  It's a good way to absorb what's happening in the election.

    And I am a fan of Sully's. Smart guy that I disagree with on a lot of topics, including topics of race.

    Parent

    Dems should unclench ... (none / 0) (#6)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:22:35 AM EST
    last night's debate is the only thing Romney will be winning this fall. The evil overlords are on your side this time. You can't lose.

    It did make our cable news brethren very happy.  They really weren't up for spinning out Dewey comparisons for the next five weeks. They much prefer the Romney comeback fantasy. It's no more real. But it plays better.

    Polishing it, a little. (none / 0) (#12)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:50:05 AM EST
    By the campaign and its surrogates fanning out with a debate post-mortem, complete with dissection of Romney's most curious statements, some of the debate damage may be ameliorated.   Indeed, television ads  with clips of Romney's comments, Jon Stewart style, can re-inforce his policy elasticity as well as his casual relationship with the truth.  

    His elasticity (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:56:24 AM EST
    has always been out there for anybody to grab onto that wanted to.

    Parent
    Not to mention, his plasticity. (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:08:42 AM EST
    I can't get that image out of my head from last night's split-screen debacle, of Romney wearing that welcome-to-the-funeral-home insincere smile...

    Parent
    "Dear Friends..." (none / 0) (#122)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:06:15 AM EST
    Mr Rictis.

    Parent
    Carry over from the other day. (none / 0) (#31)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:41:23 AM EST
    If two of the Replacements get together to record a few songs for a benefit EP, is it really a reuniting of the Replacements?  

    I say no.  It's Paul and Tommy and a couple of other guys.   It's not the Mats that I've known and loved.  Just like Pink Floyd (post Syd Barrett) can never be Pink Floyd without Rick Wright (RIP) or Roger Waters.  It.is.not.the.same.

    The worst concert I ever went to .... (none / 0) (#35)
    by magster on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:48:01 AM EST
    ... was a post Roger Waters Pink Floyd concert. I could not tell any difference between what they were playing and how it sounded on the studio version, the sound system was horrible, some guy kept yelling "WOOOO!!!!" in my ear every 30 seconds, and it was just lame.

    Parent
    The ghost (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:55:54 AM EST
    of Milli Vanilli is alive and well at many faux live concerts these days.

    Parent
    Don't knock the "WOO!"... (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:54:14 PM EST
    I'm a big believer in the "WOO!"...of course, it should only be done primarily in between songs, or during/after a blistering solo.  Fever pitch when demanding an encore.  Every 30 seconds, bad form....it's a judegment call really.

    I thought I was a loud WOO!er till this guy behind be at a Black Crowes show put me to shame...he was drowning out the the band, and the Crowes crank it.  I might have been annoyed, because he also was every 30 seconds, but I was far too impressed with his booming "WOO!" skills to be bothered.

    Parent

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by sj on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:03:08 PM EST
    My "WOO!" protocols are pretty much the same as yours.  And I'm happy to know that, even though I don't go to very many concerts anymore at all, I can still summon up a d@mn solid "WOO!".

    Parent
    Blessed are the "WOO!"'ers... (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 02:10:49 PM EST
    idle chit-chatters and cell phone users otoh, eternal damnation! ;)

    Parent
    Definitely not the same Mile... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 01:09:57 PM EST
    but those in the know, know the score...doesn't bother me when founding members keep the name with new members...I kinda see it as another example of carrying the torch and keeping great music/great bands alive.  As long as no living original member objects.

    Parent
    I hear what you're saying, my friend. (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 07:49:14 PM EST
    The torch should and must be kept lit and burning brightly.  But things must also evolve.  As Rupe points out, it is possible to do both.  

    I think that can both agree that the music we love and those who play it can provoke very visceral emotions in us.  Such as it is with me...  

    I can't imagine seeing the Jimi Hendrix Experience "reunited" and playing the old songs.  The remaining members are fine musicians in their own right, but you just can't replace this.  

    I saw the "Who" without Keith and John, desperately clinging to the past.  That was one of the saddest things I've ever seen.  

    On the other hand, I saw Clapton and Winwood together and while it was a great show by two rock gods, it wasn't Blind Faith.  However, they didn't pretend it was and I enjoyed the crap out of that show.  

    I would probably like Sublime with Rome a whole lot more if they weren't called Sublime.  Sublime was Bradley to me.

    I love hearing David Gilmore or Waters (I would pay big money to see a full show of this!) play Floyd songs--or even seeing them together again, it ain't Pink and the Floyds without Nick behind the kit and Richard slouched over the keyboards to me.  All the memories, all the emotions, all the attachments that have been tied up in the music over these many years.

    Now that I've rambled on endlessly, here's a Levon tribute for you.  I wish it were a reunion of the original Drive-By Truckers, but alas no.

    And here's a little something else I found on the interwebs you might enjoy.    

     

    Parent

    Well rambled sir... (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 06:04:14 AM EST
    The JHE example sank your point home, that would be ridiculous...and Rupe's Furthur example as the right way to do it, call it something else. The Band wasn't really The Band after Robbie left.  Well said fellas, you've persuaded me.

    I had the Stones on the brain...they are still the Stones without Brian, without Mick T, and without Bill Wyman.  The Ramones were still The Ramones with multiple drummers, though they wouldn't be without Johnny, Joey or Dee Dee.  I guess it's kinda a judgement call...the lineup can change while enough of the core and the spirit remain to retain the original name credibly...but when a lineup change changes the core and spirit of a band, ya need a new name...it's a new band.

    At the end of day, as long as the music plays, who cares wtf ya call it;)

    And thanks for the morning coffee & cigarettes linkage!


    Parent

    I don't want to be around... (none / 0) (#120)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 08:39:12 AM EST
    the day the music dies!  

    You're certainly welcome for the links.  Always my pleasure.

    Parent

    Mile...Thanks for the Linkage (none / 0) (#124)
    by easilydistracted on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:18:39 AM EST
    He remains the Number 1 Axeman. I was fortunate enough to see the Experience live, one time, in Kansas City, November 1, 1968. I was 14. Come to think of it -- had my first experience with the herb during my first experience with the Experience. Hmm.

    Parent
    Damn... (none / 0) (#127)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:45:25 AM EST
    I woulda guessed you younger Easy D...Jimi at 14, you lucky bastard! ;)

    Indeed...Jimi was so much the best to ever live it's not even fair to all the other great axemen...he is in his own category of one...one and only.

    Parent

    My Brother, I remain young in spirit. (none / 0) (#129)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 08:52:36 AM EST


    Parent
    I like what Phil Lesh and Bob Weir (none / 0) (#95)
    by Rupe on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 04:58:54 PM EST
    are doing with Furthur.  Change the name, but play your own music in a slightly different way over the years.  It's a shame I was too young to see The Grateful Dead with Jerry, but I've seen the Dead and I plan to go to a few Furthur shows next year.  I predict Bob Weir will tour until he dies, on stage.

    Parent
    Thursday Morning Open Thread | 127 comments (127 topical)

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