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Monday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:19:21 AM EST
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The 11 Show, starring me, today at 11. Topics for today: The BCS and the travesty that is Northern Illinois' inclusion, the fiscal cliff, and why being a "unique body" with "unlimited debate" is not a good thing for the Senate.

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Open Thread.

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    Monday Morning Open Thread | 87 comments (87 topical)

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    Fix the Debt CEOs (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:54:38 AM EST
    During the past few days, CEOs belonging to what the campaign calls its CEO Fiscal Leadership Council -- most visibly, Goldman Sachs' Lloyd Blankfein and Honeywell's David Cote -- have barnstormed the media, making the case that the only way to cut the deficit is to severely scale back social safety-net programs -- Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security -- which would disproportionately impact the poor and the elderly.
    ...
    As part of their push, they are advocating a "territorial tax system" that would exempt their companies' foreign profits from taxation, netting them about $134 billion in tax savings...
    ...
    But while Cote strongly recommends cutting those benefits, when it comes to the tax obligations of corporations, he's clear about what he wants: a corporate tax rate of zero.

    "From a fairness perspective, nobody would be able to stand [a zero tax rate on corporate profits]," but if the U.S. really wanted to create jobs, he said this spring, "we would have the lowest rate possible."
     link

    If middle class, the poor and the elderly sacrifice benefits, what will David Cote and Honeywell International sacrifice under their proposal?

    David Cote, CEO, Honeywell International

    Honeywell's unrepatriated offshore earnings: $8.1 billion

    Estimate windfall from territorial tax system: $2.8 billion

    Honeywell's effective corporate tax rate 2008-2010 (standard is 35 percent) -0.7 percent

    Cote's 2011 taxable compensation: $55.2 million

    Cote's yearly savings if top Bush rates are extended: $2.5 million link

    The link above shows how many of the CEOs will benefit from eliminating taxes by reducing benefits to the safety net programs and cutting "low-priority spending."

    Tax rates don;t create jobs (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:02:24 AM EST
    Demand creates jobs.

    Parent
    You are addressing only one part of the CEOs (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:12:40 AM EST
    proposal. They want to replace income derived from taxes with cuts to safety net benefits and cuts to domestic programs.

    Reducing Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid benefits and cutting cutting "low-priority spending" reduces spendable income for the middle class, the poor and the elderly. Less income equals less spending which equals less demand.


    Parent

    Social Security and Medicare (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:20:09 AM EST
    Are not part of the nations debt.  

    Parent
    Social Security still has ... (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:31:31 AM EST
    a surplus. And medicare doesn't have the problems the Chicken Littles suggest.

    And the Banksters rub their hands together with glee that intelligent people buy all this debt nonsense.

    Parent

    How one can tell (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by NYShooter on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 07:24:19 PM EST
     this Fiscal crap is a fraud

    We will all be dust before one of our "reporters" asks the CEO's, or Obama, why the simplest fix of all isn't "on the table:"

    1. Public Option
    2. Negotiated drugs, Medicare


    Parent
    I would also add to your list (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by DFLer on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:53:43 PM EST
    3. raise the limit on income subject to SS tax, heh?

    Parent
    Absolutely, (none / 0) (#82)
    by NYShooter on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 03:18:03 AM EST
    why not.

    Parent
    A few guesses why not (none / 0) (#84)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 07:23:14 AM EST
    Because the rich would have to pay a few dollars more. Wall Street wants Social Security privatized and the insurance industry wants Medicare to go to a voucher system so that the can soak seniors for high priced private insurance.

    Because D.C. is obsessed with projecting the appearance that they want to balance the budget. Lower taxes for the Masters of the Universe under the guise of tax reform will need to be offset with cuts to domestic and safety net programs.

    And last but not least Obama really, really wants his Grand Bargain which has always consisted of "tax reform" and "reforming the entitlement programs."    

    Parent

    Maybe you could present that argument to the CEOs (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:06:51 AM EST
    who are visiting the White House and touring the county selling the idea that we will not be able to "Fix the Debt" without cuts to Social Security and Medicare.

    Maybe you might want to convince Obama and the members of both parties of Congress that Medicare is not one of the "drivers of the deficit" and they don't need to cut Medicare benefits.

    "Medicare and Medicaid are the single biggest drivers of the federal deficit and the federal debt by a huge margin."

    Barack Obama on Wednesday, June 24th, 2009 in a town hall meeting

    Maybe you might want to convince the White House that we don't need a "separate track" to reform Social Security.

    OTOH, Social Security and Medicare definitely have an impact on my spendable income. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and domestic programs definitely have an impact on the spendable income of a large segment of the population. Reduce our income and you will reduce our ability to purchase goods.

    Parent

    I don't think the Obama administration (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:20:10 AM EST
    believes that Medicare is a driver of the deficit.  They haven't said any such thing.

    Parent
    Have we heard him contradict the (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:30:48 AM EST
    many CEOs and corporate shills who are saying that?

    Have you checked lately to see what the $80,000-a-speaking duo of Bowles and Simpson are saying out there?

    I hate to say this, but I've seen this show before, and I'm frankly surprised you aren't getting any sense of deja vu about it yourself.

    Parent

    In fact the BS members of the Catfood Commission (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:50:09 AM EST
    are so prominent that people are actually forgetting that the commission failed to reach an agreement.  So the BS being spouted by B and S is being spread across the country at (as you say) $40,000 a pop/per.

    Parent
    I think they want the pharma give away (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:17:33 PM EST
    To end, mostly because we probably can't afford that long term and it is unethical.  I also think they are looking for ways to end abuse, like a few programs I read about where the hospitals got to charge a crazy fee to medicare for giving anti-smoking lectures and the hospital was giving away a free lunch if you would attend the lecture and they could bill for your warm body presence.

    All of these items will be defined as cuts.  I worked in a hospital business office though and as a humanitarian my focus is on providing true care to individuals.  That hasn't been the focus for most providers for years though.

    You spoke of all the luxury medical facilities being built in your area and that's sad, some sort of available "excess" is driving that or was driving that.

    Cleanliness is the most important hospital issue right now.  Ending the spread of Mersa.  I know this because my son has so many surgeries but do you know how many filthy facilities I've been in?  Our existing healthcare system is a horrible mess, and since profit has been the only incentive we have lost our way and our ethics too.

    I am not seeing where cutting services to patients has been on the administration's table.

     

    Parent

    somewhat different issue (none / 0) (#42)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:24:33 PM EST
    but have you seen this?

    President Obama's budget plan would save $12.8 billion [from Tricare] over five years by gradually increasing working-age retirees' annual enrollment fees, with lower-income retirees paying the least, and then adjusting them according to national health spending growth thereafter. The maximum fee would quadruple to $2,000. . . .


    Parent
    This is a direct quote from Obama (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:12:21 PM EST
    Barack Obama on Wednesday, June 24th, 2009 in a town hall meeting said the following:

    "I think it's a very legitimate question," Obama began. "I guess that the first point I'd make is, if we don't do anything, costs are going to go out of control. Nobody disputes this. Medicare and Medicaid are the single biggest drivers of the federal deficit and the federal debt by a huge margin."

    If we don't do something soon to rein in health care costs, Obama said, Medicare and Medicaid "will consume all of the federal budget."

    David Plouffe, senior White House advisor

    Plouffe added that while the White House wants to engage in comprehensive tax reform, they know they must also "carefully" address the "chief drivers of our deficit": Medicare and Medicaid.


    Parent
    Why don't you have a link? (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:19:56 PM EST
    I can't find this on google, at least not yet.  I'll keep trying.

    Parent
    Mainly because you don't take the (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:38:39 PM EST
    time to read my links. I provided links to Obama's proposal to cut $400 billion from entitlement programs as specified in his FY 2013 budget. I provided links to what the cuts to Medicare and Medicaid were. Yet, you are still ignoring the benefit cuts and claim that Obama is only proposing efficiencies.

    Your claim that Obama is not proposing any cuts to benefits to these programs never are accompanied by links to quotes from Obama saying he will not cut any benefits to these programs. Please provide me with a link to Obama stating he refuses to charge seniors making $85,000 more for premiums in section B (which covers doctors visits and similar services) and D (which covers prescription drugs). Please provide me with a quote from Obama saying he will not keep the income threshold stable (not adjust for inflation) until one in four beneficiaries are paying extra premiums.  Please provide me with a link to a quote from Obama stating he refuses to charge co-payments for home health-care services, or penalize patients who buy Medigap policies to take care of Medicare co-payments and deductibles.

    Parent

    Oh really? (1.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:43:25 PM EST
    That's why links aren't handy....because ummmm Tracy....and Obummer

    I get it, Obama sucks.  He sucked yesterday.  He sucked the day before yesterday.  He sucks today.  He will suck tomorrow too.

    And I suck, for talking about this fog of Obama around here

    Parent

    Why provide links to someone who doesn't read them (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Direct quotes from Obama and members of his administration are what they are? Are the policies he is proposing or the statements he makes an indication that "Obama sucks.  He sucked yesterday.  He sucked the day before yesterday.  He sucks today.  He will suck tomorrow too."

    I don't know. They are your words not mine. I tend to focus on his statements and policies many of which I do not agree with and not on his personality.

    Parent

    No you don't (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:05:29 PM EST
    Because he has said things recently that you choose to ignore.

    Parent
    I asked you for the links (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:15:27 PM EST
    that would substantiate your claim. I would love to see links for the following:

    Obama stating he refuses to charge seniors making $85,000 more for premiums in section B (which covers doctors visits and similar services) and D (which covers prescription drugs). Please provide me with a quote from Obama saying he will not keep the income threshold stable (not adjust for inflation) until one in four beneficiaries are paying extra premiums.  Please provide me with a link to a quote from Obama stating he refuses to charge co-payments for home health-care services, or penalize patients who buy Medigap policies to take care of Medicare co-payments and deductibles.

    I can and did provide you with links that showed these cuts are in his FY2012 budget and these are the cuts he is proposing in his initial "fiscal cliff" offer.


    Parent

    Correction that should read (none / 0) (#44)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:29:38 PM EST
    his FY 2013 budget.

    Parent
    Well if you insist, (none / 0) (#50)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 03:52:33 PM EST
    why would I argue with you?  I'll take that at face value without a link.

    Parent
    It's everywhere, Tracy, but (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 02:12:17 PM EST
    here's one place to get started.

    I put Plouffe's comment into the google and got 63,700 results.

    This isn't about Obama-sucks/Obama-doesn't-suck; this is about - at least for me - a shock doctrine-style crisis that has been manufactured in service to the Masters of the Universe who regard the old, the poor and the sick as deadweight/deadbeat drains on this country.  And you can seek refuge in what Obama did or didn't actually say, but in my opinion, the president who keeps going to the team of Bowles & Simpson because of their good ideas can't run away from what they're saying just because he, himself hasn't said them, too - I'm sorry, but he has to own what his surrogates are saying - or disavow them.

    We live in crisis now, all the time; we stand on one cliff or another of someone's or some group's making, and after the dire, gloom-and-doom, the-end-times-are-upon-us message comes at us from all sides without interruption, we surrender.

    The truth for me is that I don't trust anyone currently in power on this whole mess - and if there's a personal element here, I'm the "person" in "personal:" my issues, my concerns, not whether I like or don't like Obama, for God's sake.

    Like I said in another comment, I feel like I've seen this show before; it may not be a bait-and-switch this time, but too many times I've seen Obama get public support by saying what the people wanted to hear, and then sell them out and pivot to what he intended all along.

    I would dearly love to be wrong, and if I am, I will be right here putting on a mea culpa show like you've never seen.

    Parent

    What google are you using? (none / 0) (#51)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 03:56:29 PM EST
    Mine showed this:

    Parent
    Also, something said in 2009 (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:30:32 PM EST
    And Goolsbee had been watching with horror for years how healthcare costs were inflating and spiraling out of control.  They placed a lot of controls into the ACA to end that.

    You take stuff out of context, you take stuff that was said pertaining to the healthcare crisis and fighting to get the costs under control without gutting the infrastructure....and it doesn't pertain to Dec 2012 and it isn't being said in Dec 2012 either.

    Goolsbee was crazed to get healthcare costs under control though and whipping Obama to get it done, and rightfully so.

    Parent

    You're right of course (none / 0) (#29)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:42:18 PM EST
    The reason Medicare quotes from 2009 are meaningless now is a 3.8% medicare tax was added to capital gains at a certain level under ACA and kicks in January 1.

    It doesn't solve the rapidly growing costs of healthcare but it does kick the can a bit.

    Parent

    This quote is from late November, 2012 (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:25:23 PM EST
    David Plouffe, senior White House advisor

    Plouffe added that while the White House wants to engage in comprehensive tax reform, they know they must also "carefully" address the "chief drivers of our deficit": Medicare and Medicaid.

    This is part of the "fiscal cliff" offer Geither made last week:

    o Medicare/entitlement policies from the President's Budget that could total $400 Billion in savings

    Links to the proposal and to cut to Medicare and Medicaid contained in Obama's FY 20123 budget can be found here.

    Parent

    The IMAC board too (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:16:59 PM EST
    Will help

    Parent
    That's true (none / 0) (#7)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:26:25 AM EST
    What does reality have to do with the CEO Tour of 2012?  Do you think they really care about the national debt?

    Parent
    No they don't (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:21:17 AM EST
    But other people do.  They don't run or rule the world, they just try.

    Parent
    They don't rule the world for sure (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:41:02 AM EST
    but they have a deathgrip on the microphone.

    Parent
    Everything has this twist though (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:20:47 PM EST
    Around here, that somehow the CEOs on parade is Obama's fault.

    Parent
    Do you see (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:25:18 PM EST
    your President challenging that message?

    Parent
    Why should he (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:34:56 PM EST
    He also doesn't challenge everything out of Palin's mouth, Limbaugh's mouth, or most everyone else's mouth that spouts on the subject.

    He's working while the blowhards are spouting.

    Parent

    I must (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:13:21 PM EST
    admit that I don't know what he is working on...


    Parent
    I didn't ask if he's challenging the CEOs (none / 0) (#52)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 04:14:22 PM EST
    I asked if he's challenging that message.  You know, the one dominating the airwaves?

    Parent
    Dominating the airwaves? (1.00 / 2) (#54)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 04:36:21 PM EST
    That seems to be the President. I haven't heard a CEO mentioned on this subject anywhere but TL whine cellar.

    Parent
    Then you must be ignorant of things like (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by shoephone on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 04:45:21 PM EST
    60 Minutes and the national news broadcasts, which is where the CEO's have been featured ad nauseum for the past two weeks. And I'm pretty sure that 60 Minutes and the national newscasts get millions more visits than Talk Left.

    Parent
    Or (3.00 / 3) (#57)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 05:06:31 PM EST
    you just prefer to spend your time looking for things that make you nauseous.

    So let's see...60 minutes last night:

    1.Steve Kroft investigates allegations from doctors that a hospital chain admits patients regardless of their medical needs.
    2.Born in a prison camp in North Korea, defector Shin Dong-hyuk describes how three generations of a family are brutally punished if one family member is considered disloyal to the regime.
    3. Two adventurers have built the only solar-powered plane that can fly at night.

    60 Minutes the week before:
    1.Craig Kielburger has kept his promise to save children around the world, a mission he began when he founded "Free the Children".
    2.60 Minutes goes behind the curtain to show how Ballet Master in Chief Peter Martins works hard to build a new future for the New York City Ballet
    3.Few people know more about lions than filmmakers Dereck and Beverly Joubert, who have been living in the bush and filming Africa's big cats for 30 years.

    Yup I guess those lion and ballet and solar plane CEO's are dominating the airwaves on 60 minutes.

    Parent

    Too bad you weren't (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 05:27:31 PM EST
    as dedicated to researching the Fix the Debt CEOs.  Or mayhap you think Obama took them to task when he reached out to them a couple of weeks ago?  

    Whoa.  Maybe you do think that...

    Parent

    You're right (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 07:29:41 PM EST
    he did have a meeting with about 2% of the Fortune 500 CEO's like Frank Blake, Marissa Mayer, Muhtar Kent, and Doug Oberhelman. He has also met with Labor leaders like Richard Trumka, Mary Kay Henry, Lee Saunders, and Justin Ruben.

    He's met with a group of small business owners.  He's met with Senators and members of the House. He's had a meeting with the N.A.A.C.P., the Human Rights Campaign, AARP, Sister Simone Campbell from "Nuns on the Bus", all offering their insight as to what they would like to see moving forward.  

    Soon he'll be meeting with Governors. Who else do you want him to sit down with? Mayors? I think he's covered about everybody,

    Parent

    You know what? (none / 0) (#71)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:30:20 PM EST
    I will be happy to be wrong about how this is going to go.  Well and truly happy.  But decades of observing people have led me to conclude that people don't change dramatically unless something dramatic -- or traumatic -- happens in their lives.  Then it gets personal.

    And none of the players that have the biggest megaphones and the biggest purses will ever be personally impacted by the decisions made here.  Not Bowles or Simpson or Peterson or the CEOs who have banded together.  Or Obama or members of Congress.  So frankly, I'm not expecting that a single one of them will suddenly get an epiphany here.  And I don't see any evidence that said epiphany has already happened.

    So I don't have a lot of faith in this populist rhetoric.  I applaud it, but I'm not going to  pretend that past actions never existed.  I couldn't accept blind faith when I was a practicing Catholic and I certainly can't learn to have it at this late date.

    So you just go ahead and hang on to your rainbows and ponies.  And if it turns out that you're right, I'll gladly help you polish your pot of gold.  

    But I'll be honest, to me it sounds like you feel perfectly comfortable putting blinders on that pony.

    Parent

    I believe (none / 0) (#86)
    by Amiss on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 02:10:18 PM EST
    I remember one or both of tthe Bush's asking congress to borrow $800 billion from S.S. to finance something.  Is this right or am I confused once again?

    Parent
    That niggled something in my memory (none / 0) (#87)
    by sj on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 04:04:17 PM EST
    but nothing very clear.  But a google search produced this very interesting reading material.

    Parent
    I may have confused (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by shoephone on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 06:03:33 PM EST
    60 MInutes with the CBS Evening News, because Scott Pelley hosts both. GUess what? Check out the schedule for CBS News over the last two weeks and you will find Pelley interviewing CEO's as a nightly feature. Lloyd Blank Mind was the first one, but not the only one, by any means. You may also want to check out the schedules for the other news shows, and oh, then there's NPR, which has also been featuring the CEO a$$hats. Really, Gomer. Check it out and learn what's going on in the media world that everyone else has been seeing and hearing non-stop. And then take your bullsh*t and stick it back up your arse where it belongs.

    Parent
    You haven't heard it so it doesn't exist? (5.00 / 6) (#60)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 05:32:50 PM EST
    High-powered Fix the Debt group draws attention/Washington Post

    The business leaders who set up the Campaign to Fix the Debt appear nearly every day on network talk shows and have won coveted time with President Obama in pushing for increased tax revenue, reduced government spending, and changes to Social Security and Medicare. The group's leaders met Wednesday with lawmakers on Capitol Hill and returned, yet again, to the White House.

    CEOs to Congress: OMG, fix the deficit! -- MSNBC

    CNN Money

    CEOs To Washington: Fix the Deficit or Else | Fox Business Video

    Fix the Debt: CEOs launch drive for 'grand bargain/CSMonitor

    CEOs to Participate in Debt Discussion at NYSE ...

    The Nation Whine

    Crooks and Liars Whine

    Huffington Post Whine

    Other whiners include Daily Kos, digby, Think Progress, and Esquire to name just a few more.

    Parent

    Let me see if he can squeeze me in today (1.33 / 3) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:32:38 PM EST
    I'll ring him up right now and let him know how miffed you are at him today verses yesterday.  I'm sure he'll be all over it, doing my very special bidding while Syria moves its chemical weapons into place to deploy them.....Jesus fricking frick

    Parent
    Jesus fricking frick (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 03:48:28 PM EST
    is right.  Because your President never has surrogate messengers and does all his talking himself.  Naturally there is nothing coming out of the WH while Syria is busy moving chemical weapons and such.  The silence must be because every single member of the West Wing is all over that.

    Parent
    Yes, because Geithner hasn't been saying anything (1.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 07:16:51 PM EST
    And neither has Reid.  I'm tired of the constant dishonesty that all this Obama hatred requires.

    Parent
    Too bad (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:35:39 PM EST
    you're not as interested in the historical dishonesty of the speakers.  Oh well, I guess every day's a new day. And yesterday never happened.

    I confess that's a nicer world to live in than the world where google works.

    Parent

    Geither has said things (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:31:36 PM EST
    Geither on CBS Face the Nation Dec. 2, 2012

    SCHIEFFER: Aren't you going to have to somewhere along the line, though, talk about entitlements and reforming entitlements?

    GEITHNER: Absolutely. And the president is committed to that. And as I said, we put...

    SCHIEFFER: But you don't have any of that in this plan.

    GEITHNER: No, that's not true. We put out detailed reforms to entitlements that total $600 billion over 10 years that build gradually over time because they're phased in carefully. So the outer year savings will be larger than that, in that context. We think they're very good policy. Now Republicans don't like some of those proposals and some Republicans, apparently, want to go beyond that. But what they have to do is tell us what they're prepared to do. And what we can't do, Bob, is sit here and try to guess what works for them.

    SCHIEFFER: Well, what is it that you propose to reform?

    GEITHNER: I'll give you just a couple of examples. Reforming farm subsidies, very important to do, lots of room to do sensible reforms in that context. And they can raise substantial amounts of money. In health care, we propose to a modest increase in premium for higher income beneficiaries and we propose ways to make the government much smarter about how it buys medicine for Medicare beneficiaries. link

    A direct quotes from Geither yesterday saying that Obama's initial offer contains $600 billion in reforms to entitlement programs one of which increases Medicare premiums for higher income beneficiaries. It would be nice if you made sure your statements were accurate before you accused others of dishonesty.

    Parent

    So now that Geithner's saying things (3.67 / 3) (#66)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 07:44:16 PM EST
    people want to hear, that makes him a good and trustworthy guy?

    Get a grip, please.

    And quit trying to delegitimize what people are saying by making this about "hatred;" you're better than that.  And so are the people at whom you're lobbing that accusation.

    Parent

    No kidding re Geithner (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by shoephone on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:19:19 PM EST
    As I recall, even GWB, the worst president of my lifetime, did one thing right: allocating billions of dollars towards AIDS research and medical services through PEPFAR and the Millennium Challenge Account. But he's still the worst president. He's still a war criminal.

    I expect we'll remember Geithner just as fondly.

    Parent

    If (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:12:05 PM EST
    he took center stage and put it to those CEOs - publicly and forcefully - I would be more inclined to think that he disagrees with them than I do now.

    He doesn't seem to be anywhere.

    Parent

    I was beginning to think... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by unitron on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 02:46:24 PM EST
    ...I was the only one who knew that.

    "Demand creates jobs."

    It's amazing the lengths some people go to to not know that.

    Parent

    See Paul O'Neill (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:03:55 AM EST
    link

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    until we accept and deal with... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Dadler on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:37:24 AM EST
    ...the fact that our entire economy is run by the most degenerate addicts this society can produce, until their paradigms are essentially destroyed, it is not logically possible to have any recovery for any amount of people that isn't yet another bubble illusion.

    We are a nation that is simply the equivalent of a person with a deadly disease who lives in complete denial about it.  If we have to have worthless trinkets and widgets to produce in order for humans to have dignity and jobs in our society, in a population that is growing larger and which technology and outsourcing displaces at an increasingly alarming rate, then we're doomed. Because, again, it means we place worthless stuff ahead of living people. It means we can't bring ourselves to choose people over money.

    And again, we're run by degenerate addicts who have won so much of the game already: Right wing economic paradigms still rule the day, no one in power is countering them with any force of passion, and Americans continue to internalize, more than any other nation (where people actually care enough to turn out an protest in the millions), that sickening tenet that money matters more than people.

    And you know we live in a country that believes that quite deeply, Tent. We could not possibly be having the utterly absurd debates and negotiations about this if we really valued our citizens more than our inanimate objects of no intrinsic value.

    People: Die.  Trinkets: Live.

    That's our paradigm. And it's a death sentence, and no one right now seems to understand or give a crap. We'd rather rearrange those deck chairs.

    Wouldn't real leaders be nice? People who cared about the country more than their tiny joints?  We can always dream I suppose.

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    Demand (none / 0) (#36)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:05:45 PM EST
    without $ don't go nowhere;

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    That's not demand... (none / 0) (#80)
    by unitron on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 01:34:47 AM EST
    ...That's just "I wish I had...".

    Demand (in the Law of Supply and Demand sense)is when someone wants something and is willing and able to pay a certain price for it.

    Supply is when someone has something and is willing to part with it for a certain price.

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    I get it... (none / 0) (#83)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 07:14:16 AM EST
    I believe that is what I was trying to say---

    Unless people have money - usually, but not exclusively, obtained through gainful employment - there can be no "demand" - because the factor you cite - the ability to pay for a product will not be there.

    If the government refuses to do anything to help stimulate employment people will not have money, and there can be no demand - just "I wish I had"...

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    "Old fashioned" words! (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:21:43 AM EST
    It seems that lately the media enjoys pointing out pols use of retro words.

    They loved Biden's use of "malarkey".  Now they're pointing out Republicans' use of "flabbergasted".

    Looks like we're a few weeks from fiddlesticks and a quarter to folderol.

    Probably more like a fortnight (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:37:48 AM EST
    Looks like we're a few weeks from fiddlesticks and a quarter to folderol.


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    I kinda like (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by KeysDan on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:37:52 AM EST
    old-fashioned expressions.  I like less the use of words such "balance" as in deficit talks, when those politician's idea of balance would get most butchers to be skedaddled.

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    I love the "old fashioned" ... (none / 0) (#31)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:53:24 PM EST
    words too.

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    I was laughing at the fuss over (5.00 / 5) (#20)
    by ruffian on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:16:21 PM EST
    'malarkey' at the time. I guess I am old cuz that does not seem like an old-fashioned word to me!

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    I did put the term ... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:53:45 PM EST
    in quotes.

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    In one (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:04:18 PM EST
    one of the short films of W.C. Fields, I remember him saying that an errant golf ball was going to "smite the old geezer on the sconce".

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    Great one! (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:12:13 PM EST
    Love Fields.

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    Saw the film version of "Barrymore" (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by shoephone on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 02:48:22 PM EST
    yesterday. First off, Chris Plummer is f*ing brilliant! Second, the action takes place in the 1940's, with all the lingo and schtick of the time period, and it was great fun to hear that kind of talking. Bonus: Plummer, as Barrymore, does some spot-on vocal impersonations of both W.C. Fields and  JB's brother Lionel.

    It's worth every penny of the higher ticket price (as part of the film festival).

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    Balderdash! (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:59:39 PM EST
    Forsooth, methinks that this is a load of codswallop on the part of the media.  Bah, humbug, I say!    ;-)

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    Enough of this folderol. (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 08:17:10 PM EST
    I not only love those old-time words, I use them in everyday conversation.

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    Why the Fiscal Cliff is a Scam (5.00 / 8) (#12)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:56:43 AM EST
    Explained in the first two videos (of six) comprising an interview with Jamie Galbraith, here and here.

    Parts 3 through 6 will no doubt follow, and be worth a look.

    I wonder when or if it will ever occur to people why these crises are created, what end game is hoped for.

    And it's not just the politicos, (none / 0) (#77)
    by shoephone on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:50:23 PM EST
    the CEO's, and the media fanning the flames of looming disaster. Moody's has been issuing those dark warnings it will instantly downgrade the US credit rating unless a deal is reached! Right away!

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    I wonder if (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by NYShooter on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 05:01:08 PM EST
    The Republican Party knows how close they are to driving the Democrats into extinction? Even facing a party dominated by insane people it took an incumbent Democratic President over a billion dollars and almost two years of campaigning to squeak out a victory.

    I believe the hatred traditional Democrats feel towards the quislings who have taken over our Party is so strong that if the Republicans took even a baby step towards sanity (get rid of the Tea Party) the Democrats would be reduced to fighting the Green Party for those last 2-3% of fringe voters.

    More (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 05:09:16 PM EST
    have voted for the Democratic Party Candidate than the Republican candidate in 5 of the last 6 presidential elections.

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    It's a girl! (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 08:14:04 PM EST
    Enough with the  fiscal slope and the BCS. There is important news to report. We have a new baby elephant at the Oregon Zoo. She weighs approximately 300 pounds. No name yet.

    Click the link and see the little darling.

    Thanks Casey (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:37:04 PM EST
    Babies are so cute even when they weigh 300 pounds. ;o)

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    What a great video! (none / 0) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 08:32:33 PM EST
    When we were on safari in Botswana two years ago at Chobe Nat'l Park, we observed a newborn baby elephant -- probably no more than one week old, according to our guides -- being well tended to and guarded by his grandmother, mother and aunties.

    (African elephant society is intensely matriarchal, with females and youngsters congregating in large herds headed up by elder females. And once they reach certain age and size, the young males are "encouraged" by those older females, usually their grandmothers, to leave the herd and strike out on their own.)

    Being inherently curious, the little guy attempted to come out to see us as our vehicle approached in order to check us out, whereupon his grandmother -- who was the biggest pachyderm in the herd -- deftly used her front foot to reach out and very brusquely pull him back behind her, while she faced directly toward us the entire time. Afterward, the little guy stood obediently underneath her, and peered out at us almost sheepishly from behind her big legs. It was an amazing and touching moment to see.

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    Rose-Tu, the mother elephant, has really (none / 0) (#70)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 08:39:08 PM EST
    taken to her maternal duties with this baby. With her firstborn, a son, Rose didn't seem to be very interested in him or in being a mother. There was some worry that with the new baby she would also be standoffish.

    Luckily, Rose-Tu seems quite happy to be a new mother with this new baby.

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    That is too cute (none / 0) (#73)
    by sj on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:36:10 PM EST
    Thanks!

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    Orange Bowl tickets (none / 0) (#53)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 04:33:22 PM EST
    for FSU vs Northern Illinois for anyone interested have already dropped to $8.00... People are fighting to dump them on StubHub. (they originally cost $75-$250)

    It's your football ticket version of Cyber Monday

    That's kinda silly. (none / 0) (#62)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 07:07:01 PM EST
    But no doubt, it'll be great news for NIU fans who thinking about making the trip south to Miami, but were wondering about the availability of tickets.

    Speaking for myself only, I found the nearly one hour's worth of deroguatory comments toward the NIU Huskies on ESPN's bowl selection show last night to be both deplorable and unprofessional. Regardless of however one feels about the BCS and mid-major college football teams, that invitation to the Orange Bowl represented a significant milestone for the Northern Illinois football program, and the team obviously earned its way to Miami based on the BCS's own rules. The university, its students and alumni and fans have every right to be proud of them.

    "You're in the MAC. Every kid in this conference plays with a chip on his shoulder because they were told that they weren't good enough. That's consistent."
    - Incoming NIU Husky Head Coach Rod Carey, when asked by a reporter if his team would be playing with "a chip on its shoulder" after the nationally televised criticism on ESPN (Dec. 2, 2012)

    The NIU Husky nation clearly deserved better than all the dissing, tutting and clucking they received from ESPN's resident panel of self-annointed know-it-alls, who claimed that the Huskies had somehow crashed a "big boys only" party and don't belong there. And it's nice to see that I wasn't the only one who felt this way about the elitism and arrogance we saw on display last night.

    (Ironically, the live feed that ESPN set up from NIU in anticipation of the team's celebration over their selection apparently caught Husky QB Jordan Lynch tossing an orange at Kirk Herbstreit's image on the TV screen, as he derided NIU's Orange Bowl invite as "an absolute joke.")

    Aloha.

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    No they didn't (none / 0) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 08:03:42 AM EST


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    Dick Armey no likey tea party no more? (none / 0) (#79)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 12:32:09 AM EST
    Armey's quitting Freedom Works, the tea party group he founded. He won't say why, but he makes it clear he wants nothing to do with FW, and that they are not to f*ck with him!

    "As I resign from all board positions and duties, please see below a list of dispositions on outstanding issues: I expect to be fully compensated through the expiration date (December 31, 2012) of my current consulting contract with FreedomWorks," he wrote. "Henceforth FreedomWorks shall be prohibited from using my name, image, or signature in any way or for any purpose without my written permission or in the event of my death, without my heirs written permission."

    He asked for his name, image, and signature to be removed from all FreedomWorks materials -- "letters, print media, postings, web sites, videos, testimonials, endorsements, fund raising materials, and social media."

    Armey also barred the group from using "Hitting the Ground Running," a guide he wrote for House freshmen. Max Pappas, the group's former vice president for public policy and government affairs, has also left.

    Very, very interesting...

    What is it they say about a sinking ship? (none / 0) (#81)
    by unitron on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 01:38:14 AM EST
    Oh yeah, something to do with rats.

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    Monday Morning Open Thread | 87 comments (87 topical)

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