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Saturday Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 08:56:33 PM EST
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There were three winners of the MegaMillions grand prize. Two people in Colorado won substantial amounts..

The million dollar Colorado winner bought his/her ticket at the same 7/11 I bought mine at.

The $1 million winner bought a ticket at the 7-Eleven at 4040 E. 8th Ave. in Denver and the $250,000 winner bought a ticket at the 7-Eleven at 6802 S. Yosemite St. in Centennial.

So, it really could have been me -- but it wasn't. [More.....]

I have a friend from Europe I haven't seen in 30 years visiting in a few days. Her son is looking at colleges here. I decided to go hunt for old pictures of us, and went to a moving company where I have had stuff in a giant storage crate since the 80's. I haven't gone out to see what's there in more than 15 years.

The moving company had one of its movers unseal the giant crate. There must have been 50 boxes, at least. Since all I wanted were boxes of photographs, I still have no idea what else is there. I left with two giant suitcases filled with loose photos and five moving cartons that are marked "photos."

Six hours later, I'm still just making my way through the second suitcase. What an amazing journey through time. Everything from the TL kid's ultrasound pictures, hundreds of polaroids of him as an newborn and infant, every friend and relative, every house I've lived in, every country I've traveled to, every special occasion (from my "sweet sixteen" party to early Rolling Stones concerts) and so much more are in these photos.

I knew I took a lot of photos, but had no idea I took thousands. I'm not sure when I'll come up for air to get back to the present and the news.

So in the meantime, here's an open thread, all topics welcome. How are you spending the weekend?

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    Saturday Night Open Thread | 56 comments (56 topical)

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    Two audio experts say ... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Yman on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 09:43:38 AM EST
    ... screams were not George Zimmerman's:

    Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, told the Sentinel that he used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman...

    ... Zimmerman told police that he screamed for help during his confrontation with Martin, 17. He claims the shooting was self-defense.

    The Sentinel said it contacted Owen, who it described as a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound. He told the newspaper he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

    Owen told the newspaper that the software compared the screams to Zimmerman's voice and returned a 48 percent match. He said he would expect a match of higher than 90 percent, considering the quality of the audio.

    "As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen told the Sentinel.

    But he also said he could not confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice...

    ... The Sentinel said that Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, used audio enhancement and human analysis and came to the same conclusion.
    Thousands of Trayvon supporters march to police station

    "I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau told the newspaper. "That's a young man screaming."
    Funeral Director (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by smott on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 08:56:43 PM EST
    ....says no injuries to show signs of scuffle.

    http://news.yahoo.com/florida-teens-body-showed-no-sign-fight-funeral-203903998.html

    Guess the MEs report not yet released.

    Will Zimmerman still claim Martin was the Agressor?

    Parent

    Completly crazy (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 10:03:31 AM EST
    Josh needs a presription for Narco and every pharmacy in the immediate area is out.  We must be allowed to import drugs!!!! This is just too nuts, he' s 12 and he's had 2 surgeries in the past 15 days and he just wants to go home.

    It is crazy, MT. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 12:03:43 PM EST
    And it's not just one drug. Walmart has to routinely scout around to find one of my BP meds.

    In the meantime Obama defends the indefeasible Obamacare plan instead of saying that if elected he will pass a law killing Obamacare and replace it with a single payer plan based on Medicare...

    But he won't.

    Parent

    Agreement alert! (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Zorba on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 01:49:21 PM EST
    Jim, this is one of the rare times I actually agree with you!     ;-)
    Medicare for All (or something similar) was and is the way to go.  And everyone understands Medicare- they either are on Medicare, or they have parents/grandparents/other relatives who are on Medicare.  Of course, I'm not sure that Obama could have sold this to Congress in 2009.  But then, he didn't even try.


    Parent
    Even imports (none / 0) (#21)
    by smott on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 08:54:54 PM EST
    You can legally get with a prescrtipion (my thyroid med comes from Canada - no domestic versions of it work for me)...good luck getting your Insurance to pay for it.
    I get 0$ covg for non-US meds.

    ANd i Have to take thyroid med for my whole life.

    Yay.

    TG it's not "that" expensive...

    Parent

    I understand (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 02:56:27 PM EST
    that the pharmaceutical companies are deliberately shorting some of the drugs so they can get more money for them. So far, all this has done is make people mad.

    There's a problem with Thyrogen that's used in treatment for thyroid cancer patients too and some doctors are delaying some of the treatment because of it.

    Parent

    It's all about the money (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 04:17:20 PM EST
    Not serving others and making a living, not saving lives, just getting rich.

    Parent
    It should be illegal (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by shoephone on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 04:22:34 PM EST
    Intentionally withholding lifesaving drugs from people, based on a strategy of making billions more in profits. Creating supply and demand in health matters is utterly immoral.

    Parent
    Face facts (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 06:09:17 PM EST
    .

    Price controls result in shortages.  There is zero evidence of witholding.

    .

    Parent

    There is also sero evidence ... (5.00 / 0) (#19)
    by Yman on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 07:03:56 PM EST
    ... of "price controls" causing these shortages.

    Nobody is sure just what is causing the shortages because drug manufacturers are not required to report any reasons to the F.D.A. But several factors are likely to be involved: contamination problems at some manufacturing plants, forcing unexpected production shutdowns; difficulties in getting pharmaceutical ingredients from suppliers, especially those abroad; reluctance to invest in production-line improvement for low-profit generics when high-priced brand-name drugs bring in far higher profits. Sweeping consolidation in the generic drug industry means that fewer companies are left in that market to make up for a shortage.

    The shortages are forcing health care providers to buy more expensive products in the absence of cheap generics. Unscrupulous wholesalers have made matters worse by scooping up scarce drugs and offering them to hospitals at markups that often reach 20 times the normal price or more, according to a recent survey.



    Parent
    Additionally (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by DFLer on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 07:38:25 PM EST
    Glenn D. Braunstein, M.D.
    Chairman of the Department of Medicine, Cedars-Sinai
    (snip)A Complicated Problem

    The problem of drug shortages is complex, with some underlying difficulties that are little understood. One example of an economic reality upset many in the oncology community last fall when an article in the New England Journal of Medicine laid much of the blame for cancer drug shortages on the way oncologists in private practice operate.

    Chemotherapy drugs are not bought and sold like other drugs. Patients don't go to the drug store and fill a prescription for chemo treatments. Instead, they get it from their oncologists. This system evolved over decades because drugs for such treatments in earlier times were so toxic that they were best left in oncologists' specialized hands. The drugs once were inexpensive and oncologists bought the drugs at a low price and sold them at a substantial markup to help support their practices.

    Fast forward to 2012 and a world in which brand-name versions of chemotherapy drugs can cost many times more than generics. Recent changes in Medicare laws have limited to 6 percent the markup that oncologists can receive to cover their practice costs. That can be a trivial amount when administering a generic drug that costs a few dollars, but a substantial amount for a brand name drug costing hundreds or thousands of dollars. The article's stunning example was a product called leucovorin, available generically since 1952. A new version of the drug, levoleucovorin, "reportedly no more effective and 58 times as expensive," came on the market in 2008. Use of the new product grew and eight months after its launch, there was a shortage of the older, generic product, further perpetuating the overuse of levoleucovorin. That means the health care system swallows the tab for the more expensive drug, and individual patients pay higher co-pays for a branded drug.

    But even this example barely scratches the surface of medical payment realities. Oncologists are among the physicians who spend large amounts of time with patients and whose expertise is crucial in helping cancer patients make decisions. Since oncologists don't perform procedures, like surgery or colonoscopy, they're only reimbursed for time spent talking to patients and can be paid at about the same level as a physician advising a patient about a cough or a headache. The chemotherapy payments evolved, in part, to ensure that cancer doctors earn the income their expertise warrants. (In a future blog, I'll talk about the need for us physicians to accept changes in how we're paid to make financial incentives line up more fairly with our health care system's needs.)



    Parent
    Tracy the hospital Pharmacy should be able to (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by samsguy18 on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 06:46:31 PM EST
    Help you out.....before Josh goes home have his attending make arrangements with the in house pharmacy pre-discharge
    The shortages have been getting more severe over the last six to eight  months. I've contacted specific Phamaceutical companies directly demanding an explanation..... I was informed the FDA has been limiting what they can produce for distribution.I've never encountered this problem before.  

    Parent
    For Certain Meds... (none / 0) (#38)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:14:56 PM EST
    ...the ones that are commonly abused (schdule I & II), the DEA, not the FDA, sets quotas on the total output for the industry.

    So people who needs them don't get them because the DEA can't do what they are suppose to do, keep drugs off the streets.  So instead of admitting defeat, they make a lot of people suffer by restricting output.

    The quota system is specifically designed to operate within the statutory framework of the CSA, in conjunction with other controls to enable DEA to monitor the movement of controlled substances and certain chemicals into and through the closed system of distribution to help prevent diversion of such substances into the illicit market. Through the quota system, DEA limits the amount of those substances and chemicals manufactured each year to those quantities that will provide for the estimated medical, scientific, research, and industrial needs, lawful export requirements, and the establishment and maintenance of reserve stocks for the United States. All aspects of the closed system of distribution must work together to reduce or eliminate the diversion of controlled substances.

    Other commenters stated that the proposed aggregate production quotas for alfentanil, amphetamine (for sale), codeine (for conversion), codeine (for sale), dihydrocodeine, dihydromorphine, diphenoxylate, hydrocodone (for sale), hydromorphinol, levorphanol, lisdexamfetamine, meperidine, meperidine intermediate A, meperidine intermediate B, meperidine intermediate C, methadone, methadone intermediate, methamphetamine, methylphenidate, morphine (for conversion), morphine (for sale), morphine-N-oxide, nabilone, noroxymorphone (for conversion), noroxymorphone (for sale), opium (tincture), oripavine, oxycodone (for conversion), oxycodone (for sale),



    LINK

    Add in the fact that drug companies want to maximize profits, so they will produce brand name, rather than generic because of the limits.  Which makes sense and because of the limits, it's virtually impossible for generic pill producers to enter the restricted market.

    Parent

    If this is true I hope they know (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 06:48:51 PM EST
    they caused a panic twice with my son.  When he wouldn't quit throwing up on Morphine, their second choice was part of the shortage.  You really can't have someone throwing up in halo traction.  They can't really move their head particularly in the beginning.  He was throwing up in his own mouth laying flat on a bed on his back tethered to the bed.  We could get it out of his mouth with bedside suction, which after that had to stay on and available at all times because if you inhale your vomit it is life threatening.

    Their third choice was Dilaudid, but Dilaudid has a very tiny window between being effective and possibly causing respiratory arrest.  The first time it happened I thought he was having a bad dream and holding his breath.  The monitor is going off, his oxygen bloodstream reading sank to the low 60%.  I was standing over his bed shaking him frantically and hollering for anyone to hear me and he finally did wake up and start breathing normally.  It happened the second night too though, and nurses flooded through the door.  It wasn't just dreaming, he was having a hard time with the Dilaudid too.  So shockingly, if this is true, someone who really only uses something as heavy as aspirin and Advil would just like to invite the DEA to kiss my ass for like ummmm.....forever.  Just bury your face in there you guys and kiss it until I die.  This surgery has been horrible in the drug shortages respect.

    Parent

    The nurses helped us find a pharmacy (none / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:34:34 PM EST
    On our route home that could fill it.  They said that pharmacies around Emory are usually well stocked in the extreme.  The shortages are hitting them hard as they try to fill scripts for people newly discharging from the hospital.  Very frustrating though after getting everything lined up for leaving.  Josh is in a halo traction vest and needs a reclining elevated wheelchair for a little while.  No small thing to track down and use.

    Parent
    Shades of Lysistrata (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by sj on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 05:22:13 PM EST
    It's good to see that someone is finally applying pressure to bankers.  Hysterical.  Awesome and hysterical.

    And the linked story (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peter G on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 05:39:24 PM EST
    does not even have an April 1 date on it!

    Parent
    Asset forfeiture corridors (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Yman on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 08:13:47 AM EST
    Interesting article about how some police departments target drivers in certain corridors for asset forfeiture, particularly if you're from out-of-state.

    Is Juliette, Georgia (none / 0) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 09:13:09 PM EST
    suffering uranium poisoning at the hands of Georgia Power?

    A power plant, cancer and a small town's fears

    Maybe it's because today's a goofy day anyway. (none / 0) (#6)
    by EL seattle on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 02:31:51 PM EST
    But I'm getting a real Fifth Element vibe from this picture here.

    (The full story from Politico is here.)

    About the "Neighborhood Watch" (none / 0) (#8)
    by observed on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 03:36:05 PM EST
    program in sanford. This  comment from a-blog is interesting. First of all, isn't cpinva correct that Sanford doesn't have a "Neighborhood Watch" program? Second, the claim at the link is that Sanford's unaffiliated, unofficial group was organized by Zimmerman himself!
    That's quite interesting.

    The possibility that (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 04:36:54 PM EST
    Zimmerman may have been in charge is new information - so far, he has only ever been referred to as a block captain, and not as the overall leader; there have been, however, numerous reports, some of them from spokespeople for the national office of the Neighborhood Watch program, that whatever this particular community had, it wasn't a registered, law-enforcement affiliated program.

    I believe the local NW liaison in Sanford also confirmed that she put on a presentation for the HOA, left materials and handouts for them to look over, but wasn't contacted to set up a program.  As others here have pointed out, a community cannot have a program unless a majority of the residents agree.

    I have found it odd that there has been only one other person who came forward and identified himself as a member of the watch group; there also has been complete silence, I think, from the HOA.  My guess is they are all petrified of being sued.

    Parent

    BBC stated Zimmerman is a security guard. (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 05:37:49 PM EST


    Parent
    Everybody's (none / 0) (#18)
    by CoralGables on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 06:58:09 PM EST
    somebody, just not necessarily what they say.

    (no Snellville, Georgia joke here)

    Parent

    Here is the list of Sanford's (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Towanda on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 12:50:20 PM EST
    neighborhoods with official, approved as registered, trained, and maintained Neighborhood Watch programs.  (It's a lot of work to start and maintain one, I know.)

    Zimmerman's neighborhood is not one of them.

    Parent

    where does it say (none / 0) (#46)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:53:45 PM EST
    a neighborhood watch program must be registered with them to exist? This is a distinction without a difference. They don't say unregistered groups are not valid, only that they aren't part of the National Sheriff's program.

    There was a neighborhood watch group in existence at Twin Lakes, and it didn't have to be registered with the Sheriffs, unless it wanted to use their logo and get their bumper stickers and newsletters and call itself a Neighborhood Watch Group as opposed to a neighborhood watch group.

    I don't see the relevance of this discussion except as obscuring the facts.


    Parent

    No one is saying that, Jeralyn. (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 03:36:45 PM EST
    What they are saying is that whatever the Twin Lakes community had, it wasn't a registered, affiliated program.   That is a fact, which you seem to be avoiding or obscuring by lumping all watch groups under the same umbrella; it's like saying a fake Louis Vuitton bag is the same as a real one because they're both handbags, or that pink slime is the same as filet mignon because they're both meat.

    By making them all the same, this "independent" group ends up being accorded the same credibility that is accorded the official Neighborhood Watch program with its recognized rules, procedures and close working relationship with law enforcement.  There is no evidence that this independent group followed those kinds of rules and protocols - if they did, it is difficult to understand why no one from this alleged group has come forward to say that they did everything by th book.  Affiliated groups have telephone trees; a watch member out running errands and not on patrol would have (1) called police to report the suspicious person, (2) called the first person on the tree to get information to the community quickly.  A member of an affiliated group would not have taken it upon himself to pursue anyone armed with a gun - whether or not he or she were licensed to carry it.  

    In your opinion, it doesn't matter what the Twin Lakes affiliation was - but in the opinion of many here, it not only matters, but is an important fact in the investigation; far from obscuring facts, I believe we are seeking to make sure the facts we do know are not swept under the rug.


    Parent

    If that's your position (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by sj on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 04:10:07 PM EST
    This is a distinction without a difference.
    Then no wonder you think they all lead to vigilantism.

    This is a distinction WITH a difference. A big difference, IMO.

    Parent

    Where did I say "exist"? (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Towanda on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 05:35:45 PM EST
    You can exist and organize a group and call it the American Bar Association, but you'll hear about it.  And I don't have to consider your group the real ABA on your say-so, even if you put their logo on your business cards.  

    What I don't see is how a lawyer cannot understand trademark law.  You use the upper and lower case for Neighborhood Watch and neighborhood watch as if it makes no difference.  It does, because the official groups get and retain their approval by maintaining the training, the regular contact with the police (which tends to lessen the need for the patrols, which Zimmerman appeared to like to do), etc.

    You also are ignoring that whatever that group was in Twin Lakes, it did use the Neighborhood Watch sign, so it apparently did so without permission.  (The signs can be ordered online by a distributor that apparently doesn't check with the NSA, as who in the world would imagine anyone trying to pay the costs and pass themselves as an official group for the glamor of it all?  Well, unless they didn't want to do the hard work of it all and just wanted to patrol, playing cop.)

    Are those facts really that obscure to you?  I mean, I'm not even a lawyer, but I was taught in my journalism job about trademarks.

    And the relevance to this case?  There's no difference between untrained groups on their own and trained groups that must have liaisons with the police and meet weekly and more?  There's no difference between a group that gets agreement of the majority of its neighborhood vs. a couple of guys who claim to represent a larger group?  I would not try to win that argument in my corner tavern, much less in court.  But then, I come from the state that had to cope with Posse Comitatus and recall their ways of trying to take the Midwest back to the days of the Wild West.

    Parent

    This is all false (none / 0) (#23)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 09:42:10 PM EST
    He was part of his neighborhood watch program. According to the Sun Sentinel, a Twin Lakes newsletter sent out to residents listed him as the point person:

    Zimmerman was the point person for the subdivision's Neighborhood Watch. The September edition of the community's newsletter stated: "To receive Neighborhood Watch updates, safety tips and be noticed (sic) of any suspicious activity within your community, call George Zimmerman," and included his phone number, which has since been disconnected.

    He was not "on duty" that night, but doing a personal errand, going to the store. He didn't have the gun because he was patrolling for the neighborhood that night. He's allowed to carry a gun because he has a personal permit to do so.

    The city was aware of the program:

    When the Retreat at Twin Lakes community told Sanford police it wanted to start a neighborhood watch, city volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival spoke to them in September 2011. ...She said that was her last dealings with the neighborhood, which chose its own leaders and had no sanctioning or accrediting relationship with law enforcement.

    Some groups register with the National Sheriff's, others probably don't. I doubt its required.

    Neighborhood watch people are not supposed to carry guns while patrolling or intercept suspects, just report tips and suspects to the police. Check Sanford's website for the brochure and powerpoint.

    More evidence: In one of his earlier 911 calls (about an open garage door) he tells the dispatcher he's part of the Neigbhorhood Watch. (You can listen here. ) He says two officers came to their neighborhood watch meeting the day before and names them. There are many of earlier calls on the Seminole County Sheriff's page, here. If you need a login, you can get it here.

    I already said in comments to another thread the allegation there was no neighborhood watch group at Twin Lakes was false.

    You can also read the recent burglary reports in the neighborhood on Sanfords' website here.

    I can't keep responding to every comment with misinformation. I don't have time. Before you post some rumor or "what you read somewhere" do some research and source your comment. Comments with false information will be deleted.

    Parent

    Jeralyn, this is tendentious. (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by observed on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 10:30:51 PM EST
    There is a clear distinction being made between the national Neighbordhood Watch program and a "neighborhood watch" program without affiliation.


    Parent
    There are neighborhood watch (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 11:09:06 PM EST
    programs in Sanford, and Twin Lakes had one, and Zimmerman was part of it.

    Your comment asked "First of all, isn't cpinva correct that Sanford doesn't have a "Neighborhood Watch" program?"

    Police and Sheriffs don't run Neighborhood watch groups. The whole idea of the groups are they are local and run by themselves. They are supposed to call suspicious activity into the police so police can deal with it. So the question is misleading and CPinva's response, which was deleted, is even worse. Why are you perpetuating it? There are watch groups in Sanford that the city/police are aware of, provide brochures to and their officers communicate with the groups as warranted.

    I have no agenda except stopping the posting of misinformation on this website, which gets linked back to me, rather than the misinformed commenter.

    I ceased posting on the case when the state's attorney's office said there would be no further information released. Everything out there has been hashed to death, including neighborhood watch groups. I'll wait until there's official new information to report and I think everyone else should do the same. If you are going to discuss it here,  then do so responsibly.

    I have always said neighborhood watch groups are bad ideas because they lead to vigilantism. I still believe that. I last said so here. Whether it turns out to be an issue in this case is as yet unresolved. Not jumping to conclusions of wrongdoing  is hardly being "tendentious."

    Parent

    Your care to not jump (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by sj on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 10:08:00 AM EST
    to conclusions of wrong doing is not where you are being tendentious.  In fact, I would expect nothing less from you.

    But this:

    Police and Sheriffs don't run Neighborhood watch groups. The whole idea of the groups are they are local and run by themselves.
    is not entirely accurate.  Or rather is incomplete enough to be inaccurate.  While it is true that they don't run NW groups, a group formed under the official aegis of Neighborhood Watch will have official sponsorship by the local PD and will have an designated PD liaison and a majority of the residents of the community must approve it.  I know this for a fact.  An HOA doesn't have that authority.

    NW is organized by neighborhood not by city so the fact that Sanford offers a program does not validate your contention.  It has been confirmed (although I lost the link) that the neighborhood did not have a sanctioned and trained NW group.  The HOA did indeed post that very misleading sign.  And I don't see them standing up to support Zimmerman right now.  In fact, in my opinion they did him a grave disservice and are now hanging him out to dry.

    I'm mystified.  You are typically so determined to be completely accurate. I don't understand why you continue to speak as if self-proclaimed "neighborhood watch" is the same thing as sponsored "Neighborhood Watch".

    Or is that the point you are trying to make?  That there is basically no difference?

    Parent

    Correct. (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by Towanda on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 10:37:33 AM EST
    And I again say this as an organizer of an official Neighborhood Watch chapter.

    Parent
    I think you are talking about (none / 0) (#34)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 12:22:38 PM EST
    2 different things.  While many Neighborhood Watch programs are sanctioned by the National Sheriff's Association (who founded the group in 1972), not all (and in fact, according to some sources, most "neighborhood watch" programs are not sanctioned). Zimmerman did not belong to an officially sanctioned NW program, nor was there one in the neighborhood.

    So while you are correct about the policies and handbooks, and such, whaatever group Zimmerman was in was not part of that official group, even though they may have gotten materials to start up (you can get forms and info online). And while of course, it's never a good idea to carry a gun on patrol, and banned by official NW groups, apparently (according to Jeralyn's sources), he was not actually on patrol, but running an errand and he was carrying his licensed gun.

    Parent

    I am not talking about Zimmerman at all (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by sj on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 12:42:58 PM EST
    I am talking about what constitutes a registered Neighborhood Watch as opposed to a self-described one.  I can self-describe as Queen of Egypt.  Does that make me so?

    While I don't disagree with what you are saying, your comment is irrelevent to the clarification I am trying to achieve.  These are waters that should not be muddied, IMO.

    Parent

    I'm not sure how it's irrelevant (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 12:58:42 PM EST
    You said:

    While it is true that they don't run NW groups, a group formed under the official aegis of Neighborhood Watch will have official sponsorship by the local PD and will have an designated PD liaison and a majority of the residents of the community must approve it.  I know this for a fact.  An HOA doesn't have that authority.

    That is true - for an official NW.  Zimmermann was not part of any official group because the neighborhood doesn't have one.  They may have a group calling itself a NW, but it is not an officially sanctioned group.

    What else is pertinent to the case? IS that even pertient to the case, except for the fact that the media keeps reporting that Zimmermann is  "captain" in a neighborhood watch group and everyone jumps out of their seat to scream that NW participants aren't supposed to carry guns.

    The media is getting this one wrong, and it's continued here in comments - people keep talking about him breaking the rules of a NWG.

    Parent

    Just FYI (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by sj on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:50:54 PM EST
    I specifically did NOT want to address the case.  I made a mistake in my original comment when I made a judgmental statement about the HOA because it brought Zimmerman's name into it.  

    I had hoped to get a clarification wrt the very narrow issue of the trademarked name of "Neighborhood Watch" from Jeralyn, because it isn't like her to ignore such that aspect. It was a long shot to begin with, and is probably even more unlikely now.


    Parent

    jb, please. Help me out here (none / 0) (#39)
    by sj on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:33:14 PM EST
    Please keep Zimmerman (and this case) out of your conversation with me.  I want very much to make a distinction about the group itself.  It serves no purpose to continue to conflate whatever that HOA had authorized with a NW group.  In fact it obscures the issues to continue to do so.

    I'm asking you, please.  Don't keep bringing up the case in your comments to me. Because you and I are NOT talking about the same things.  And in fact, your responses exemplify how the the muddy waters continue to swirl.

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    I'm sorry (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:51:22 PM EST
    I see you are rhe one who actually changed the topic since the thread is about Zimmerman and neighborhood watch programs, which is where the confusion set in.

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    No worries (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by sj on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:01:12 PM EST
    My comments were 1) in support of observed's comment #25, and 2) because I want very much to understand why she won't acknowledge the distinction.  I really, really do not get it.

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    Many neighborhoods in Seattle (none / 0) (#27)
    by shoephone on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:04:43 AM EST
    have Neighborhood Watch groups. Without a doubt, they help deter crimes and help police catch thieves and burglars. NO ONE I know who's in a Neighborhood Watch group is following suspects or going after people with guns. What Zimmerman was doing is way out of the norm.

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    Registering is required (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Towanda on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 10:39:13 AM EST
    to use the Neighborhood Watch designation, with a capital N and a capital W, by trademark law.

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    The call is also (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 09:56:54 PM EST
    on page 41 of the 47 page list of Zimmerman's 9/11 calls -- it's the 9/23/11 report. In the description paragraph it says Sgt. Herz had gone out to meet with the Neighborhood Watch group the night before and the complainant/caller is part of the group.

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    Yes, and that date coincides with the (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:49:42 PM EST
    September date referenced in the Sun-Sentinel article and which you quoted - my bold:

    When the Retreat at Twin Lakes community told Sanford police it wanted to start a neighborhood watch, city volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival spoke to them in September 2011. ...She said that was her last dealings with the neighborhood, which chose its own leaders and had no sanctioning or accrediting relationship with law enforcement.

    When I look at the 911 report on Sept. 23, I take the remarks on it to reference what the caller said when he called; the calls are time-stamped and it doesn't make sense to me that the 911 operator would know at the time of the call when and where and who was conducting NW presentations.

    As others have pointed out, setting up and being an officially registered NW program is not as simple as "come meet with us - bam! - we're a group!" so it is just not credible that one night after meeting with a program representative, the Twin Lakes community was even close to being a NW group.

    George Zimmerman dropped a name, referenced the meeting - maybe he thought he would get a faster response, who knows?

    What we do know is that Twin Lakes wasn't a recognized, affiliated group, and while there's no law that says they had to be one in order to band together to keep an eye on the neighborhood, I think one has to, at some point, ask why only one other person has even admitted to being part of this "group."

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    So, typed in Talkleft on pay computer at (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 06:52:01 AM EST
    <munich airport and got PPUS!  <br> <Ps:  Very tired of seeing the face of <<dot.com or whatever the heck his name is.

    Very interesting comment (none / 0) (#31)
    by sj on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 10:14:33 AM EST
    I know what all those words mean, by I'm not getting your point :)

    The only part I understand is your post script.  And I disagree.  Sort of.  I don't care about the face, but I am very interested in the case.

    Besides I don't have to see the face; work filters eliminate most graphics.  And don't get me started on how intolerable an MSNBC link is.  Bad enough at home, here it can tie up Explorer for minutes.

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    what is ppus (none / 0) (#47)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:55:02 PM EST
    did the site not render correctly?

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    "Post Partisan Unity Schtick" (none / 0) (#48)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:59:37 PM EST


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    An acronym BTD invented. Or (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 05:31:32 PM EST
    didn't.  Post Partisan Unity Schtick.  I was just surprised it was in the top 3 when I googled.

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    It gets weirder and weirder (none / 0) (#45)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:15:32 PM EST
    ABC News:

    Enhanced police video of George Zimmerman in custody shows gashes to the back of his head, consistent with his version of events - that he had injuries to his head.

    Scratch the planned (none / 0) (#50)
    by brodie on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 03:43:51 PM EST
    manned mission to Mars.  Serious health risks found in long term space travel.

    18 month round trip to Mars -- not advisable at the moment with current propulsion technology.  We're gonna have to figure out how to create regular Earth gravity inside the spaceship, in addition, probably, to figuring out how to shield the craft from the various other radiation dangers found in deep space.

    Saw Neil deGrasse Tyson (none / 0) (#55)
    by DFLer on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 08:29:22 AM EST
    give an interesting talk about exploration on the
    Cspan book channel Sunday. It's 2 hours....but worth it
    Neil deGrasse Tyson talks about the history and future of NASA and the US space program. He argues that the exploration of space benefits Americans more than they may think.


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    Thx, I'm going to watch (none / 0) (#56)
    by brodie on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 09:33:27 AM EST
    when I have more time.  I know Tyson has been out there noting how space exploration forces our scientists and engineers to innovate boldly to achieve goals, as with Apollo.  And space seems a far more beneficial use of resources for mankind than the usual billions for more weapons and more exotic ways of killing masses of people, not to mention the billions our many intel services spend quietly tracking our every move.

    Space exploration also opens up possibilities for cooperating with other major countries like Russia and China in working towards a common peaceful objective, if we had a leader bold and courageous enough to suggest such a joint venture.  Imagine how such an undertaking would vastly improve relations here on Earth and help stabilize the international situation.

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    your point in para #2 especially (none / 0) (#57)
    by DFLer on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 11:13:04 AM EST
    re Russia aka Soviet Union is addressed in the talk.

    Also at the beginning, he talks about how major explorations of the past (eg Columbus and Queen I) were funded, and more interestingly, WHY they were funded.

    Tyson is very cool...and a great educator as well.

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    Saturday Night Open Thread | 56 comments (56 topical)

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