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Monday Morning Open Thread

Remember Slate? Me neither. Sorry Yglesias, you fell into a black hole there. Hope the pay is good.

Open Thread.

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    Pshaw. (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 11:57:08 AM EST
    Do you really not enjoy the mix of politically centrist blather, highbrow reviews of middlebrow TV shows, overwritten "upper class twit" travelogues, and little snarky "clickbait" factoids?

    That doesn't appeal to you?

    (Yglesias seems more or less invisible on the site, it's true. I used to bump into something he'd written once a day or so -- he was an omnipresent blogger force alongside Klein and Digby. Now it's more like once every two weeks, and it's not even as interesting as his TP stuff.)

    I'd write about his stuff alot (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 11:59:46 AM EST
    Found it pretty interesting really.

    But Slate? No, I can't do it.

    Parent

    Monday Miracle... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 03:49:54 PM EST
    an extra ducat has surfaced to see Further at the Beacon tonight...and I just locked it up, gratis!  Well not exactly gratis, its gonna cost me a day of helping my buddy put up some new moldings, but I woulda done that anyway;)

    Let the good times roll...woo hoo!

    My daughter is going Friday (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 03:52:15 PM EST
    Expensive.

    Parent
    She's in for a treat... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 03:59:01 PM EST
    this is my third go with Lesh, Weir, and friends over the last two years...simply stupendous!

    The cost and timing of the Beacon run had forced me to pass, this last minute extra is a real coup.  I still tried to pass cuz I'm big on paying my own freight and not taking advantage of the generosity of the concert crew, but when he offered the trade for my mitre box skills that satisfied the conscience and sealed it.

    Parent

    Take the ride (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 04:22:10 PM EST
    agreed (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Peter G on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:52:15 PM EST
    We saw them in Philly a few years back.  Lotsa fun.

    Parent
    The Music Never Stops.... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:07:36 AM EST
    There's a band out on the highway, They're high steppin' into town
    It's a rainbow full of sound, It's fireworks, calliopes and clowns
    Everybody dancin' C'mon children, C'mon children, Come on clap your hands.

    Sun went down in honey and the moon came up in wine,
    You know stars were spinnin' dizzy, Lord
    The band kept us too busy we forgot about the time.

    Too bad we didn't hit that Mega, I'd be going every damn night!  It's the place to be in NYC for 8 April nights, that's for damn sure.  Phil Lesh is such a beast of bass.

    Half the fun is the scene...started at our balcony seats, watching the security scurry trying to stamp out all them joints was comical, talk about a lost cause! They were pretty cool though, not trying to toss nobody...I joked with one of 'em "you're in for a looong night!" and got her to turn her frown upside down.

    A pretty little traveler with flowers in her hair took a likin' to me, and in a pleasant surprise planted a big wet one on me after sharing in our lamb's bread during "Good Lovin'".  Most poignant.

    Then we ventured down to the loge and found a home in one of the aisles right on the rail next to a big burly dude who was kind enough to make room for us to slide into his row, to appease the security trying to clear the aisles periodically...second lost cause.  He had a pocket vaporizer going non-stop and hit us off a few times.  Real brotherhood of man sh*t.

    Beautiful people, beautiful music, the beautiful life...it really was a Monday Miracle.

    Parent

    Latest update on the (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CST on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 04:51:43 PM EST
    Warren - Brown race:

    Statistical dead heat, lot's of undecideds (26%), people generally like both candidates and have positive images of both of them.  Neither one of them have managed to make negative stuff stick on the other one.  Aka Brown is not a typical republican and Warren is not a liberal elitist.  Fair enough.

    He is polling well with indies, she is polling well with conservative Dems that he won last time.

    This one looks like it will go down to the wire, but at least for now it seems like a down to the wire race that might avoid some serious ugly.  I guess we still have a few months till november.

    Couldn't we please (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 06:20:21 PM EST
    pick up Brown and transplant him to someplace like, oh, I don't know, Utah or something? Or how about Maine?  He seems a relatively harmless Republican (except for his bad judgment in being a Republican in the first place), and he is personally appealing.  There ought to be a use for him somewhere...

    Parent
    seriously (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by CST on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:39:23 AM EST
    Don't get me wrong, I really want him to lose, if only because for once it seems like we have an awesome candidate on the other side.

    That being said, even I don't really dislike him.  Frankly, he's not much worse than Kerry, and somehow less annoying.  I would trade him for just about any other Republican and probably even a few Democrats.  Maybe we should start a "move to Utah" campaign.

    Parent

    After (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 06:44:37 AM EST
    seeing a bunch of lies (knowingly) posted on facebook by evangelical and conservative Christians I have decided that their 11th commandment is you need to lie for Jesus. And they sit there and wonder why so many people have given up on religion?

    I think some Christians need to take their (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:11:59 AM EST
    faith back, take it away from the crazies.  Wouldn't be the first time :)

    Parent
    I'm trying (none / 0) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:18:00 AM EST
    I tell them no wonder 1/2 of the people under the age of 30 don't go to church. Their self righteous sanctimonious crap is a real turn off. I expected this one to un-friend me as she has done this to others that have "challenged" her cultish thinking but nothing so far. I'm thinking about "hiding" her though because even when faced with the facts that what she is saying is a lie, she puts herself into pretzel logic trying to justify it. I wonder how many people she has damaged with this stuff? She was on the fringe back in high school and I actually felt sorry for her. I think she needs to go back to the fringe.

    Parent
    I don't see Christian Fundamentalists ... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:13:19 PM EST
    as the problem right now.  These days its the wolves in sheep's clothing that we have to worry about.  Not the wolves in wolf drag.

    And what are doing bothering with politics on FB?

    I never talk politics on FB. I always act on FB like I'm at one of my grandmother's garden parties.  Pleasant.  Lightly humorous.  Pass the cucumber sandwiches.    

    Parent

    I don't know how (none / 0) (#99)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:56:53 PM EST
    but I've gotten dragged into it a couple of times lately. Mostly because I can't stand for people to spread lies. It's the lying that conservatives do that gets under my skin because they are spreading the ignorance past themselves. I mean if they want to be willfully ignorant themselves--hey have at it but when they start spreading the lies is when I feel compelled to say something.

    Parent
    Pols lie ... (none / 0) (#108)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:25:37 PM EST
    it's their stock-in-trade.  Most do it hourly.  Obama certainly does.

    Parent
    It's (none / 0) (#110)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:32:28 PM EST
    the people that are lying that's the problem. If they were putting up stuff with a pol saying something I would just ignore it but they are spreading lies which I guess I've just reached my limit with this kind of stuff and feel compelled to tell the person that they are lying.

    Parent
    Okay, have fun! (none / 0) (#112)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:36:02 PM EST
    But beware.  That way lies beasties and madness.

    Parent
    Slate's political podcast is jaw droppingly (none / 0) (#3)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 12:57:11 PM EST
    inane at times, but it fills the time at work. Too bad Yglesias can't get himself a spot on that. Might bring the meter up from inane to surreal.

    But Saleton is indeed a great candidate for Wanker of the Decade. He just might win.

    I do enjoy their TV clubs. That's the best I can say to defend Slate.

    Dear Prudence (none / 0) (#4)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    The latest problem is that a man is uncomfortable because since his wife died, his stepdaughter is coming on to him

    Parent
    the comments from the other thread were deleted (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by CST on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    but to respond to you and gryfalcon here - what I mean by all that is that even if the version of events that has gone public that is most favorable to Zimmerman is true (that Martin followed him back to his car and started a fight) I still think if you bring a gun to a fistfight and end up using it and the other person dies - that is manslaughter, regardless of who started the fight.

    There are maybe one or two instances that I would disagree with that assesment but none of those instances end with Zimmerman being able to walk afterwards.

    For what it's worth, I also don't think manslaughter should necessarily carry a long prison term, but I do think there should be consequences to killing someone even if it's not intentional or came from a place of fear.

    Parent

    I don't disagree (none / 0) (#7)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:12:04 PM EST
    But my question -not necessarily just to you- was this:

    Have you made up your mind as to whether or not this was racially motivated?

    I think a lot of people hsve, and that is part of what is clouding the ability to discuss it


    Parent

    I haven't made up my mind (none / 0) (#14)
    by sj on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:53:26 PM EST
    As to the alleged slur, I have no idea what was said there.  He muttered something.  Might have been something inflammatory.  Might just as easily have been something innocuous.  

    I do know that said alleged slur is not the first thing I would have noticed.  I'm not sure I would have ever noticed.  Who are these people that could find that straightaway?

    I mean, apart from someone who has better hearing than I do.

    As to this:

    I think a lot of people hsve [sic], and that is part of what is clouding the ability to discuss it
    I think that's one of the lesser clouds around discussion.

    Parent
    Huh?? (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:56:02 PM EST
    but I do think there should be consequences to killing someone even if it's not intentional or came from a place of fear.


    Parent
    i think that's (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by CST on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:57:20 PM EST
    extremely straight forward

    Parent
    Define consquences (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 05:42:32 PM EST
    Should there be an investigation?

    Yes.

    Should the press and various "leaders" try and stir passions?

    No.

    Should people bloviate endlessly on the web feeding each other false information and making wild claims?

    Well, that seems to be what the web was invented for.

    Parent

    Uh... (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 05:48:04 PM EST
    There were no signs of an actual investigation occurring until the press and various leaders tried to stir passions.

    Should we go to the store to buy food?

    Yes.

    Should we get off our couch?

    No.

    Uh...

    Parent

    Did I say there shouldn't be an investigation? (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 08:32:54 AM EST
    No, I did not.

    Should I try and not understand someone else?

    No.

    Parent

    You missed my point. Try again. (none / 0) (#56)
    by Addison on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:50:01 AM EST
    You claim to want an investigation, because apparently think that it would have happened through the benevolence of the universe or something. The investigation needed the passion as much as going to the store requires getting off the couch.

    Sometimes people can't be as polite and staid in their quest for justice as you'd prefer (because they don't have access to certain channels) and have to upset the jimakaPPJ's of the world with their "passion".

    Parent

    The police took evidence (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:15:52 AM EST
    including clothes that Zimmerman had on.

    So I have no indication that an investigation wasn't ongoing. Do you? No. You don't.

    And if you think stirring people to the point of near rioting and to have groups put a bounty on someone's head is conducive to justice you are flat out wrong.

    BTW - Can you explain why AG Holder hasn't moved to shut down the New Black Panthers?

    The Zimmerman family would sure like to know.

    Parent

    You also have no indication ... (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:49:36 PM EST
    ...  that an investigation was ongoing.

    That was easy.

    BTW - Can you explain what federal crime was violated by the NBPP that you think Holder is ignoring?

    You have no idea what the "Zimmerman family" would "like to know", particularly as it relates to that anonymous letter.

    Parent

    consequences (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by CST on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:30:10 AM EST
    just to be clear, I'm not talking about under the "stand your ground law" - I'm talking about what I think it should be.

    Trial for manslaughter.

    As for the rest of that, that's kind of the breaks.  You don't have to kill someone for that to happen.  Speech is still relatively free in this country, even on blogs.  That's not a consequence so much as an inevitability.  But while I realize it may make it hard for Zimmerman, it also makes it hard for Lindsay Lohan and Octomom and anyone else who gets in the public eye.  That's just life, and the only way to avoid it is to outlaw speech.

    I'm a lot more outraged about the press and "leaders" inflaming passions on things like, say, the Iraq war.  The consequences are far greater and more devastating.  I kind of feal bad for Zimmerman, but I understand why Trayvon's parents brought the press in, otherwise their son's death was never going to be investigated.  Now it almost certainly will be.

    But yes, I believe killing someone in that manner = manslaughter.  And those are the related "consequences" that should apply.

    Parent

    Okay (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:50:19 AM EST
    Everyone has an opinion.

    Parent
    as to the racial motivation question (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by CST on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:14:16 PM EST
    that's a bit harder to answer.

    Do I think that Zimmerman pulled the trigger because Trayvon was black?  I guess I don't really presume to know anything about that, but if we're speculating I'd say probably not.

    Do I think Trayvon Martin would be dead today if he were white?  Also probably not.

    Parent

    It IS hard to say (none / 0) (#10)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:30:12 PM EST
    Especially since we don't know other things, such as if Trayvon threw the first punch.

    But my question, I think, gets to the heart of the vehement disagreeements here on this board and elsewhere.  The media have helped fuel this with and made it strictly about a racial crime, when NO ONE, save for Zimmerman, knows that.

    Parent

    Here's where you go wrong (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by vicndabx on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:48:56 PM EST
    and hopefully this won't be deleted.

    It's not really about whether Trayvon threw the first punch.  He was followed and harassed because of who he was.  It seems clear he felt threatened based on what we know ("he's walking toward me....$h!t, he's running...") We teach our children to stand up to bullies, seems to me he did just that.

    Further, as a grown man, I would NEVER get into a confrontation w/a kid, period.  I would defend myself of course.  However, If I have to run so that I don't get jammed up either physically or w/the law (assaulting a minor, etc.,) I leave.  Adults are supposed to have sense that teenagers and young adults do not.

    You may not want to believe it's a racial crime, and that's your right.  Ultimately, it doesn't really matter what you or I think.  Consider, in cases of sexual assault, where the argument is made that the woman "brought it on herself." Aren't we are supposed to accept that that thinking is wrong?  Where people go wrong in this is not trying to understand how the victim feels.  An inability to understand that perspective is what makes men sexist, and in this case, some people racist.

    Parent

    I agree that the question of who threw (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CST on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:52:23 PM EST
    the first punch has no relation what so ever to the question of "is this racially motivated"

    Parent
    Right. Judging how Zimmerman reacted (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 02:05:39 PM EST
    in a fist fight with a black guy, I see no reason to believe he would have reacted differently in a fist fight with a white guy. He panicked and pulled the gun. Which is why he had the gun with him to begin with - no confidence he could handle a situation otherwise.

    I don't think the shooting itself was racially motivated. However I would like to see the records of how many white guys walking through the complex he has called 911 on and followed.

    Parent

    I think Zimmerman pulled the trigger (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 02:12:37 PM EST
    because he had a serious obsession with being a cop, of being a hero, and that particular evening, something in him went very wrong.  And someone is dead as a result.

    I think the man has some serious issues that he indulged via whatever this cobbled-together community watch program was, but I'm not convinced what drove him was primarily about race.  

    Was there a racial element?  I'd call it an undercurrent, especially given the Sanford PD's documented history; maybe Zimmerman thought he'd score some points if he managed to make sure that one of those "a-holes" didn't "get away."  Maybe they'd bend the rules a little and let him become one of them.  Finally.

    Parent

    Good comment (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 02:24:31 PM EST
    But also in his "profiling" of the "punk."

    Parent
    I like how we are (5.00 / 6) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 04:28:21 PM EST
    tricking Jeralyn by having this discussion in the open thread.

    Heh.

    Parent

    I'm sure someone will tattle... (none / 0) (#42)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 05:44:33 PM EST
    I don't expect to see most of these comments tomorrow.

    I just heard on NBC News that George Zimmerman has set up a web page seeking donations in the event he has to defend himself.

    MSNBC

    George Zimmerman, the Florida man who claims he shot and killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense, has set up a personal website to collect money for his legal expenses, his attorneys told NBC News on Monday.

    Several sites purporting to raise money for Zimmerman, 28, have popped up since he shot Martin, 17, on Feb. 26 in Sanford, Fla., but "I cannot attest to the validity of these other websites," Zimmerman writes on therealgeorgezimmerman.com.

    Attorneys confirmed to NBC News that the site, which domain records show was created Sunday, is real and is operated by Zimmerman himself. It solicits donations through PayPal with a promise that "any funds provided are used only for living expenses and legal defense, in lieu of my forced inability to maintain employment."

    Oy.  I can't bring myself to go there.

    Parent

    I'm with you (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:54:08 PM EST
    If you get deleted, then so do I.

    Parent
    Except - here's where you go wrong. (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 03:19:04 PM EST
    It's not really about whether Trayvon threw the first punch.

    Actually, it is.  At least, legally.  The whole case is based on whether or not Zimmerman had a right to invoke self-defense and this was a "justified" shooting. Especially since Zimmerman seems concerned that Martin is pulling something out of his waistband. You can tell us for sure that Z absolutely knew at that point that it was a bag of Skittles and wasn't a gun? (answer:  No, you cannot).

    He was followed and harassed because of who he was.  It seems clear he felt threatened based on what we know ("he's walking toward me....$h!t, he's running...")

    Really?  You know that for a fact? You have nothing except your own opinion to back that up.

    You may not want to believe it's a racial crime, and that's your right.

    You're right, I have no earthly idea. You don't either, of course, because it's all based on your opinion, but right now there really aren't facts out there to support that at this time. There's speculation and conjecture, sure - all based on Zinmmerman's thoughts, and unless you are privy to them, or you can show much more concrete evidence than "he was following Martin" - you've got nothing.

    You're right again - it doesn't matter what you or I think, but the problem is that the media (by tampering with tapes), along with sympathizers, have created an environment where facts aren't really going to matter, because the narrative has already been written - this was a case of a racist older man shooting a young black kid who was doing nothing more than walking.  Is that true?  Maybe.  But when we finally get a closer look at who George Zimmerman is, it might not be that simple.  For example, his father said he handed out fliers at a black church trying to get justice for a homeless black man who was sucker-punched by a white cop. Is that true?  I don't know that either (although it would be easy enough to corroborate should someone care to do so).  But does that sound like someone who is waiting around, trying to be a cowboy and hunt down black teenagers who are doing nothing more than walking home?  I dunno that either.

    It seems to me that intelligent people know there is more to the story than what we are being told and it's a little more nuanced than that. Obviously, we don't know everything as the investigation is ongoing, but I'm not sure how you can claim you know with certainty that this was a racial crime.

    Parent

    totally missing the point (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by CST on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 03:38:25 PM EST
    "can tell us for sure that Z absolutely knew at that point that it was a bag of Skittles and wasn't a gun"

    The burden of proof at that point is on Zimmerman.

    Oh my god!  He's pulling something out of his waistband!  It must be a gun!  Talk about seriously paranoid logic.

    We know he was following Martin, we know Martin had in fact every right to be there.  So based on that, he must have had a suspician for some reason, and I'm sorry but the hoodie defense isn't buyable or acceptable, and neither is the skittles/gun defense.

    Paranoia is not the same thing as self-defense.

    Parent

    Except (none / 0) (#35)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 04:15:19 PM EST
    I believe you are wrong:

    The burden of proof at that point is on Zimmerman.

    If Zimmerman saw something being pulled from the waistband of Martin's pants, (where everybody carries things like Skittles, right?), and then, according to his side of the story, Martin approached him and threw the first punch, Zimmerman can assert "stand your ground".

    We know he was following Martin, we know Martin had in fact every right to be there.  So based on that, he must have had a suspician for some reason, and I'm sorry but the hoodie defense isn't buyable or acceptable, and neither is the skittles/gun defense.

    He also says he turned around and had his back to Martin, who then approached him.

    Now, in most jurisdictions, this becomes an affirmative defense a defendant can raise at trial and the burden is then on the defendant to prove that. However, the way the Florida law is written (and I've posted this before):

    So what is truly distinctive about Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law? It is this: while self-defense conventionally is just that -- a defense, to be raised at trial -- self-defense under the Florida law acts as an immunity from prosecution or even arrest. Section 776.032 of the Florida Statutes provides that a person who uses deadly force in self-defense "is immune from criminal prosecution." This odd provision means that a person who uses deadly force in self-defense cannot be tried, even though the highly fact-intensive question of whether the person acted in self-defense is usually hashed out at trial. The law thus creates a paradox: the State must make a highly complex factual determination before being permitted to avail itself of the forum necessary to make such a determination.

    Not only that, Section 776.032 provides immunity from arrest unless the police have "probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful." Again, the law creates a Catch-22: police cannot arrest the suspect unless they have probable cause, not just to believe there was a killing, but also that the killing was not in self-defense; and where, as is often the case, the defendant is the only living witness to the alleged crime, the police likely will not be able to form probable cause without interrogating the suspect.

    Now, I'm not a Florida licensed criminal defense attorney, but what it boils down to is this: because of the way the law is written, in this state, the burden is actually on the state to prove that Zimmerman did not act in self defense before they can arrest him and charges can be filed. The burden is never imputed to Zimmerman until (possibly) this goes to trial.  

    Parent

    okay I'm sorry (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by CST on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 04:26:44 PM EST
    I'm not a lawyer, and I realize this is a law blog and you are taking that point of view.

    But I thought you were asking about our opinion.

    In my opinion the Florida law as it is written is seriously offensive and morally wrong.

    I mean on a moral level, if I am pulling out a gun to shoot someone, or for that matter calling the cops on them, I better be d@mn sure that they aren't pulling out a bag of skittles.

    So fine, defend Zimmerman all you want in the legal arena, but what I'm here to say and remind you maybe is that on a moral level what he did was wrong, and in no way qualifies to what I would consider actual self-defense.  Frankly, I could kind of give a $hit what Florida law has to say on the matter in order to form my own opinion.

    If you want my opinion as to the legality of what he did - I defer to the lawyers on this blog as they are much more capable of answering that question than I am.  But if you want my opinion on the case as a whole, you have it.  You can't kill someone over skittles, or paranoia, or being punched, or any of the myriad of excuses that have been given on this case so far.

    Parent

    My husband and I were discussing (none / 0) (#123)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 11:03:12 PM EST
    Who you could shoot in Florida and easily get of the hook shooting, just walk.  As long as you did not have a past altercation with someone, or make any verbal or physically noticeable threats by others toward your victim in the past, it is conceivable that you could shoot anyone you wanted in Florida and tell a story that would be impossible to prove that you didn't think your life was in grave danger.

    Parent
    Whether it was true or not (none / 0) (#39)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 04:39:30 PM EST
    I'm sure Zimmerman knew he better say he saw Trayvon reach for something in his waistband.

    The whole thing comes down to Zimmerman's credibility.

    In court his credibility would be challenged. But the police may not have to challenge him with the Stand Your Ground law.

    Parent

    Depends. (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 03:50:12 PM EST
    Actually, it is.  At least, legally.  The whole case is based on whether or not Zimmerman had a right to invoke self-defense and this was a "justified" shooting.

    It depends on whether you view what happened that night between Martin and Zimmerman as one incident or two. If it's one incident than Zimmerman doesn't have much right to a self-defense defense, as he initiated the contact and pursued it. If you see two incidents (Zimmerman following Martin with a gun, then a separate incident where there was a scuffle), then perhaps Martin initiated the second. I personally see one incident that unfolded over the course of 10 minutes.

    Parent

    JB (none / 0) (#45)
    by vicndabx on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 06:23:43 PM EST
    These discussions jump off on tangents that lose sight of the original point.  So let me include what preceeded it for me:

    JBINDC:

    Have you made up your mind as to whether or not this was racially motivated?

    CST:

    as to the racial motivation question (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by CST on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:14:16 PM EST
    that's a bit harder to answer

    JBINDC:

    It IS hard to say (none / 0) (#10)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:30:12 PM EST
    Especially since we don't know other things, such as if Trayvon threw the first punch. But my question, I think, gets to the heart of the vehement disagreeements here on this board and elsewhere.  The media have helped fuel this with and made it strictly about a racial crime, when NO ONE, save for Zimmerman, knows that.

    I wasn't discussing the legal aspects of the shooting.  As you note, we don't have enough information, and that is best settled in court.  I'm not part of the mob calling for Zimmerman's head.  All I want to see is a fair airing of the facts.  

    If we're speculating about the racial aspect (which I thought we were) when Martin may or may not have hit Zimmerman is not when race was potentially first brought into play.

    As you and I discussed earlier, we DON'T know what Trayvon was doing that caused him to seem "suspicious" at the point he began to be followed.  Whatever it was, absent evidence to the contrary, it's not a huge leap to assume he was a law abiding citizen walking home.

    A discussion about the racial motivation (if any) IMO, at this point, has to be totally separate from one on the legality of the shooting.  

    I never claimed anything w/certainty.  The fuel that is in play here, for me at least, are the biases we all have and the need to hear other perspectives for our own indvidual self-analysis.  

    Parent

    Strolling along wearing a hoodie while black? (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 07:32:10 PM EST
    As you and I discussed earlier, we DON'T know what Trayvon was doing that caused him to seem "suspicious" at the point he began to be followed.


    Parent
    Did you know that (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 08:39:47 AM EST
    you can't wear a hoodie over your head in many casinos??? Security will stop you at the door and make you flip it back.

    The issue is they want to see your face on the security screens. Concealing it makes them think you are up to no good.

    Parent

    Trayvon Martin was walking in the rain (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by Angel on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:11:09 AM EST
    on a street.  He wasn't inside a casino.  Your logic is incredibly stupid.

    Parent
    Angel do you know how to have a (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:23:58 PM EST
    conversation without insulting someone?

    Parent
    Did you know ... (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:12:44 AM EST
    ... that a casino floor is not analogous to walking down the street, where wearing a hoodie is not remotely suspicious?

    Kinda like trying to compare someone wearing a mask into a bank with someone wearing a mask while trick-or-treating.

    Parent

    casinos also throw you out (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by sj on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:12:56 AM EST
    if they think you're counting cards.  Which is just as unrelated to the Martin case as your assertion about hoodies and casinos.

    Parent
    But what if it was raining in the casino? (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:10:16 AM EST
    I hope you think that's as irrelevant as your bringing up the suspicion that attaches to hoodie-wearing casino patrons.

    Because here we go with the apples and oranges again - you really like that form of argument, don't you?  Do you have better luck with it elsewhere?  Because it doesn't usually get past most people here.

    I guess if Trayvon had been carrying an umbrella, that would have moved him from "suspicious" to, what? "in keeping with the quality of the neighborhood?"  Or would that have raised the hair on the back of Zimmerman's head, as he contemplated what kid carries an umbrella???

    And what if he'd been out in the rain without a jacket at all?  What kind of person goes out in the rain without a coat or a jacket or a hat?  Imagine the red flags that would have raised...

    Honestly, I cannot get over the ridiculous lengths people will go and are going to just to give Zimmerman an edge over a kid wearing a hoodie in the rain, walking to the townhouse where he was visiting from the convenience store where he had just purchased a couple of perfectly normal items.

    Parent

    Anne (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:29:18 PM EST
    My point is that being unable to see someone's face when the environment is such that the viewer is suspicious is neither unusual or unheard of.

    BTW - It was dark and raining and Zimmerman couldn't see his face. This we know.

    We also know that Martin was 6' and weighed 160.

    Now. Explain to me how Zimmerman could have known Martin was a "child." He couldn't.

    So don't give me the  "ridiculous lengths people will go" nonsense.

    Parent

    ID'd (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Addison on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:45:37 PM EST
    He got a far better look and sense of Trayvon's appearance than you let on. rom the 9-1-1 transcript, that very night:

    Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

    Zimmerman: He's got a button on his shirt. Late teens.

    Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

    Late teens could be 18-19, or it could be 16-17, so there's a tiny amount of wiggle room there. But in either case, Zimmerman clearly knew that he wasn't dealing with someone close to his age, but instead someone a full decade younger.

    Parent

    Why does Zimmerman even have to (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:51:11 PM EST
    see Martin's face?  This is a guy who says he was just out running errands - not on patrol - so why does he have to see the face of every person between where he started and where he's going?

    If he's a member of a recognized, trained community program, he would know to (1) call to report his "suspicions," and then (2) call the other community members on the telephone tree to alert the entire area that there could be a problem and that police have been called.  

    He is entitled to be as paranoid as he likes, but he doesn't have an automatic right to see the face of everyone in his vicinity - especially if the person in question isn't doing anything but walking.  

    And I'm sorry, you are being ridiculous, and getting more so with each comment you make.

    Parent

    No, I've never been to a casino. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:13:18 AM EST
    Your comment seems completely irrelevant.

    Parent
    I hope for everyone's sake (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by CST on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:28:30 AM EST
    you never walk onto a college campus with a loaded gun.  If hoodies scare you that much.  Give me a break.

    You want to sit there and rant about "kids today" and their fashion choices be my guest.  But this is all "kids today", and a whole lot of adults too.  It's not just Martin.

    Parent

    Living near a campus (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by Towanda on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 11:17:44 AM EST
    my spouse and I are doing a running count of people in hoodies walking past our house, including by race and gender -- and, with utility construction replacing gas mains and tearing up our sidewalks, also including a count of how many hoodied black males are walking on our property, our lawn.  

    And we have the "castle doctrine" in our state.  And we have had crime in our area lately, including theft from a car in our driveway just last weekend (on Easter Sunday morning, yet).  All context that parallels Zimmerman's reasons.

    So far, in just the last couple of days, we could have a kill count of more than half a dozen hoodied, male, African Americans on our property.

    Fortunately, we do not have a gun.

    Parent

    All of you reacted exactly as I thought you (2.00 / 1) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 11:55:33 AM EST
    would.

    My point is that being unable to see someone's face when the environment is such that the viewer is suspicious is neither unusual or unheard of.

    And casinos are very worried about crime. Has anyone seen a report that details the number and type of crimes in the neighborhood?

    BTW - There was a police car shot up last night in the neighborhood. Think there is a connection between all the heated rhetoric and the shooting?

    Parent

    How do you control for this? (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:06:46 PM EST
    the environment is such that the viewer is suspicious

    As we established last week, different environments are suspicious for different people.  Some people are suspicious whenever they see a stranger on their street.

    And yes, there may well have been a connection between all the heated rhetoric and the shooting, just as there is a connection between the original shooting and the way the police handled it and all the heated rhetoric.  If you are going to try to blame someone, go back to the root.

    Parent

    The "root" as you refer to it (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:22:38 PM EST
    was between two individuals.

    The situation now is being inflamed by supposed "leaders."

    And,of course, no one is speaking of "Some people are suspicious whenever they see a stranger on their street."

    We're speaking of a specific event. An unknown person walking on a dark street in the rain.

    And I still wanna know how many crimes had been reported in the area in the last year.

    Parent

    The 'root' is George Zimmerman and his (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Angel on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:49:44 PM EST
    unfounded suspicions.

    Parent
    Oh my God! (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:56:57 PM EST
    An unknown person walking on a dark street in the rain.

    A person, ... walking in "the dark" (at 7:30) ... in the rain ... with his hoodie up (in the rain)?

    Pfffftttt.

    Parent

    So how is this relevant to the Martin case? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:24:56 PM EST
    My point is that being unable to see someone's face when the environment is such that the viewer is suspicious is neither unusual or unheard of

    And, if it isn't, why'd you say it?

    Parent

    Dr Molly, I don't know how much you've (1.00 / 2) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:39:49 PM EST
    been following this on TL but one of the hotly discussed points is that Zimmerman should not have been following him and that not being able to see his face should not have been important. That is, he was wearing a hoodie.

    We don't know how much crime there had been in the neighborhood but evidently enough to cause a Neighborhood Watch to be formed.

    That helps define Zimmerman's reasons for following.

    My point was that being unable to see someone's face, especially if there is a history of crime, raises suspicions.

    Parent

    I live in a high crime area (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by CST on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:51:09 PM EST
    Hoodies are not suspicious.

    Someone following you certainly is.

    Parent

    The hoodie thing is just absurd to me. (5.00 / 4) (#93)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:24:09 PM EST
    Everyone wears hoodies, I wear hoodies, my kids wear hoodies, etc.

    He was wearing a hoodie while black and suddenly he's suspicious.


    Parent

    Uh, you seem to be unable to grasp what (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:41:51 PM EST
    I may be saying poorly. Let me try again.

    Rain. Night. Face concealed by hoodie. Observer member of a Neighborhood Watch. And most likely, a history of crime in the area.

    See the context??

    BTW - I wear a hoodie.

    Parent

    It's hard to grasp straws (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:05:57 PM EST
    "Rain" - In Florida?  No way.

    "Night" - aka 7:30?  Who's crazy enough to be outside walking on a sidewalk at 7:30?

    "Face concealed by hoodie"? - You mean he was wearing the hoodie backwards, or just that he had his hoodie up ... in the rain.

    "Most likely, a history of crime in the area" - Name a place anywhere in the world without a "history" of crime - Antarctica doesn't count.

    When you're a wannabe carpenter walking around with a hammer, pretty much everything starts to look like a nail.

    Parent

    Let's review, jim: (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:27:52 PM EST
    (1)    Twin Lakes did not have a registered, affiliated watch program; we don't really know what they did have because no one, other than that one man, early on, has spoken about it.  We don't know who were members, how many there were, what procedures or protocols they followed, what training, if any, they had.

    (2)    All members of registered watch programs are observers, and observers only: they don't follow, they don't take matters into their own hands, they do not generally patrol alone and they do not patrol with weapons.

    (3)    By Zimmerman's own account, he was not "on patrol" that night, just out running errands, armed, as he was entitled to be, with a valid carry permit.

    (4)    It was raining, it was dark.  Face protected from the rain by hoodie; there is no indication that the hood was being used for any other purpose.  That George Zimmerman harbored suspicion for any male wearing a hoodie, even if the weather made wearing one eminently reasonable, does not entitle him to take actions that could be perceived as threatening - such as following in his car, or on foot.  

    (5)    Whatever it was Trayvon Martin was doing, in what universe does it make sense to take an ordinary event - young man walking home in the rain - and escalate it to the level where someone is going to end up hurt or dead?  What universe, jim?  George Zimmerman was not and is not a cop, regardless of how much he wanted to be; the decisions he made, whether or not the State of Florida deems him in compliance with the law, ended with someone's death.  

    (6)    What people said they saw that night varies - even the account of the 911 caller changed from before he made the call to after.  If I see two men on the ground, regardless of who is on top of whom, I still don't know who the aggressor is or was, do I?  Zimmerman can say it was Martin who attacked him, but Martin, seeing as how he is dead, cannot provide his own version.  For all we know, jim, what people saw was Martin trying to get away from this weirdo who had been following him first in his car, and then on foot, for what purpose Martin didn't know.

    (7)     We may never know what happened.  The State may give George a pass, or charge him.  You can keep saying that I am biased, but I will continue to say that Zimmerman's story doesn't make sense to me, and that we all have the right to move about freely, without fearing that some cop wanna-be is going to mark us as suspicious and end up shooting us in his effort to save the day.


    Parent

    Okay, let's review (1.00 / 1) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 04:05:42 PM EST
    (1)    Twin Lakes did not have a registered, affiliated watch program; we don't really know what they did have because no one, other than that one man, early on, has spoken about it.  We don't know who were members, how many there were, what procedures or protocols they followed, what training, if any, they had.

    Jeralyn has said that there was a Neighborhood Watch.

    (2)    All members of registered watch programs are observers, and observers only: they don't follow, they don't take matters into their own hands, they do not generally patrol alone and they do not patrol with weapons.

    And your point is what?? Zimmerman may or may not have been violating the Neighborhood Watch's rules he is in. Either way he saw what he saw and was trying to do good.
    (3)    By Zimmerman's own account, he was not "on patrol" that night, just out running errands, armed, as he was entitled to be, with a valid carry permit.

    Doesn't make any difference. He saw what he saw and thought he was doing good.
    (4)    It was raining, it was dark.  Face protectedfrom the rain by hoodie; there is no indication that the hood was being used for any other purpose.  That George Zimmerman harbored suspicion for any male wearing a hoodie, even if the weather made wearing one eminently reasonable, does not entitle him to take actions that could be perceived as threatening - such as following in his car, or on foot.  

    Doesn't make any difference. He saw what he saw and was affected by it.
    (5)    Whatever it was Trayvon Martin was doing, in what universe does it make sense to take an ordinary event - young man walking home in the rain - and escalate it to the level where someone is going to end up hurt or dead?  What universe, jim?  George Zimmerman was not and is not a cop, regardless of how much he wanted to be; the decisions he made, whether or not the State of Florida deems him in compliance with the law, ended with someone's death.

    Zimmerman thought Martin was looking to commit a crime. He called 911 reported what he saw, answered questions and stopped following when he was told to.
    (6)    What people said they saw that night varies - even the account of the 911 caller changed from before he made the call to after.  If I see two men on the ground, regardless of who is on top of whom, I still don't know who the aggressor is or was, do I?  Zimmerman can say it was Martin who attacked him, but Martin, seeing as how he is dead, cannot provide his own version.  For all we know, jim, what people saw was Martin trying to get away from this weirdo who had been following him first in his car, and then on foot, for what purpose Martin didn't know.

    Doesn't matter. The witness said Martin was on top. Zimmerman has wounds to his head. Were those wounds self inflected?
    (7)    We may never know what happened.  The State may give George a pass, or charge him.  You can keep saying that I am biased, but I will continue to say that Zimmerman's story doesn't make sense to me, and that we all have the right to move about freely, without fearing that some cop wanna-be is going to mark us as suspicious and end up shooting us in his effort to save the day.

    What I am saying is that your bias shows when you say Zimmerman's story doesn't make sense and then use a pejorative "cop wanna-be" to describe Zimmerman.

    Parent

    And you bias shows ... (5.00 / 0) (#120)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 07:02:41 PM EST
    ... when you consistently state Zimmerman's unsubstantiated version of events as though they are fact.

    1)  

    Zimmerman thought Martin was looking to commit a crime. He called 911 reported what he saw, answered questions and stopped following when he was told to.

    No, he muttered "okay" when told they didn't need him to follow Martin.  You have absolutely no idea whether he stopped following Martin.  See the difference?

    2)

    The point was that for a problem to occur they would have had to follow the runner and then the runner turn and attack them.  Which is what happened in the Zimmerman/Martin situation.

    There is nothing other than Zimmerman's self-serving statement to police which indicates that it was Martin that attacked Zimmerman.

    3)  

    Doesn't matter. The witness said Martin was on top. Zimmerman has wounds to his head. Were those wounds self inflected?

    Maybe.  OTOH, given the fact that those barely discernible marks (as opposed to "wounds") didn't require so much as a bandaid, maybe his head was touched by something ... anything.

    Parent

    Could be (none / 0) (#116)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 03:45:56 PM EST
    BTW - There was a police car shot up last night in the neighborhood. Think there is a connection between all the heated rhetoric and the shooting?

    OTOH, if "heated rhetoric" is a problem, maybe Zimmerman shouldn't post photos of the vandalized, OSU Black Cultural Center on his website.  You should let him know.

    Parent

    Are you assuming that (1.00 / 1) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 11:57:46 AM EST
    the runners will turn and attack you if you follow them?

    Parent
    why on earth (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by CST on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:02:32 PM EST
    would she follow them?

    Frankly, if someone were following me, I would absolutely think they were up to no good and start to get scared.  I would be far more afraid of that than of someone walking down the street wearing a hoodie.

    Parent

    The point was that (1.00 / 3) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:18:08 PM EST
    for a problem to occur they would have had to follow the runner and then the runner turn and attack them.

    Which is what happened in the Zimmerman/Martin situation.

    But in both Towanda's and Z/M case no one would have been shot if the runner/Martin had not attacked.

    Parent

    which is what (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by CST on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:21:00 PM EST
    you think happened in the Zimmerman/Martin situation.

    In Towanda's case it never came up because she never followed them.  Which is what would have happened in the other case if Zimmerman had just left it alone.

    Parent

    And if the bullfrog had wings (1.00 / 1) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:43:35 PM EST
    he wouldn't bump his behind.

    We know that Zimmerman followed.

    We don't know if, as claimed, Martin turned and attacked.

    Although there is a witness who, I understand, saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin on top.

    Parent

    So, how are the crime statistics since (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by observed on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:56:02 PM EST
    Zimmerman started patrolling.
    One more homicide. Was Zimmerman wearing a hoodie?


    Parent
    Well, a police car was (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:32:58 PM EST
    shot up last night so I guess they are up since he stopped patrolling.

    Parent
    Oh, wow (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:17:45 PM EST
    Well, a police car was shot up last night so I guess they are up since he stopped patrolling.

    Wonder if it was another neighborhood watch member ...

    Parent

    BS - You have NO IDEA ... (5.00 / 0) (#103)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:11:00 PM EST
    The point was that for a problem to occur they would have had to follow the runner and then the runner turn and attack them.  Which is what happened in the Zimmerman/Martin situation.

    But in both Towanda's and Z/M case no one would have been shot if the runner/Martin had not attacked.

    ... whether Martin turned and attacked Zimmerman.

    Your claims, as well as your crocodile-tear pleas of just wanting to wait for the results of the investigation, are laughable.

    Parent

    First of all, we do not know that (none / 0) (#83)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:42:57 PM EST
    Martin attacked Zimmerman; there is Zimmerman's story that that's what happened, and there are conflicting witness accounts, none of which relate the events from beginning to end.

    And, in my opinion, no one would have been shot if (1) George Zimmerman was following the protocol of every recognized, law enforcement-affiliated watch program and either secured his weapon inside his car or taken the clip out of it before getting out of his car, or (2) Zimmerman had stopped following Martin, gotten back in his car and waited for the police.

    It was George Zimmerman's questionable decision-making process that set these events in motion - there was nothing wrong with Martin going to the store, or wearing a hoodie in the rain.  Yes, he'd be alive if he hadn't gone out that night, but people who just want to go about their normal business should not have to be prisoners in their homes because someone like George Zimmerman, desperate to be a cop and a hero, takes actions he has neither the training nor authority to handle.

    Parent

    Anne, your showing your bias (1.00 / 2) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:45:37 PM EST
    Zimmerman had stopped following Martin, gotten back in his car and waited for the police.

    You don't know that Zimmerman hadn't stopped and that Martin did attack.

    Parent

    Was he in his car, jim? (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:58:02 PM EST
    Is that where Zimmerman was when the police arrived?  Was Zimmerman's car even reasonably close to where the shooting took place?

    No?

    Here's the thing, jim - there was never any reason for Zimmerman to get out of his car.  If he was so threatened, he doesn't get out of the car - he does what most intelligent people would do - he drives away.

    I'm not so sure I have bias, jim, as much as I have common sense.  You should practice that a little, I think.

    Parent

    Anne, all of that is would coulda shoulda (1.00 / 2) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:37:50 PM EST
    Zimmerman did follow. I believe he should not have.

    I think the 911 tape shows he quit when he was told to.

    We have a witness that puts Martin on top.

    We have a video showing wounds on Zimmerman's head.

    If you want to ignore that, then I think you are showing your bias.

    Parent

    No, there is zero evidence Zimmerman quit (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by Angel on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 01:51:25 PM EST
    followingTrayvon.  If he had quit following him how did they end up where they did?  

    Parent
    What runners? Hearing voices (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Towanda on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 07:24:45 PM EST
    and seeing things that aren't there, Jim?

    Jeesh.  Do you know the term "a running count"?  That has nothing to do with runners.

    All we have seen are pedestrians, walking.

    And why the heck would I follow them?  I'm not a fool who wants to be a cop, like Zimmerman.

    Really, is your problem just reading -- or what?

    Parent

    I'm going to have to say a big... (none / 0) (#111)
    by TomStewart on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:33:52 PM EST
    'so?' to that bit of info.

    Parent
    My question (none / 0) (#124)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 10:07:52 AM EST
    Has everything to do with the legal case -a potential federal one.  If this was not a racially motivated killing, then there can be no hate crime charges brought, as many people would like to see. People keep speculating that Zimmerman thought Martin was "acting suspicious" only because he was black and wearing a hoodie, they are trying to make this a race issue.  Maybe it was - who knows?

    But since we have no idea at this point what Martin was actually doing to make Zimmerman think that, to ascribe racial motivations to hid actions is ludicrous and pure conjecture.

    Parent

    Why didn't you just say so then..... (none / 0) (#125)
    by vicndabx on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 10:49:06 AM EST
    I don't disagree that a hate crime will be difficult if not impossible to prove w/o audio or witness testimony of some sort.  

    I think you're wrong however thinking that the only reason people are concerned about racial motiviations is because of hate crime prosecution.  People ascribe those motivations because of what seems readily apparent, and are rightfully pissed about it.  We're not just talking Zimmerman's assumptions, but the Sanford PD's assumptions and actions also.  Just because racism isn't obvious, doesn't mean a bias doesn't exist.  Of course, that doesn't mean it always exists either.  However, I defy you to come w/a scenario where Martin's behavior is construed as supsicious enough that warrants watching by Zimmerman where Martin's race is not a factor.  Or, come up w/a scenario where a sole teenage/young white male is shot in a relatively quiet neighborhood w/a cell phone and it takes a number of days before his family is found/notified?  I'm free to speculate on what I believe played into Zimmerman's and the Sanford PD's motivations same as you are.

    Parent

    Since we don't really know (none / 0) (#126)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 11:01:06 AM EST
    What Martin's actions or behaviors were that night, I can't give you a scenario.  It's been taken as fact around here that he was "just walking down the street" although we don't really know - he could have been doing cartwheels while singing showtunes, for all we know.  I could be wrong, but I don't recall any witnesses coming forward as of yet that attested to the fact that he was just walming on the sidewalk.  The fact is, we have no idea what Martin was or wasn't doing to make Zimmerman suspicious.  Racism?  Maybe, although from some of the other things we've heard about Z's life and the people in them, that doesn't seem as clear.  I just think some people are more willing to find racism everywhere they loom.

    Until the full timeline is filled in, we have no idea what prompted this set of events.

    Parent

    btw (none / 0) (#127)
    by sj on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 12:28:58 PM EST
    Has anyone identified exactly what errand GZ was actually on that night?  I keep hearing that he was on an errand.  Or running errands. And apparently he just happened to have his gun, so ...what were they exactly?

    Martin's errand has been well established.  He had walked to the convenience store.  

    Parent

    I read somewhere (none / 0) (#128)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 12:42:34 PM EST
    (Can't remember where) that Z was going to the store

    Parent
    Don't know if that's true or not (none / 0) (#129)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 12:47:14 PM EST
    That is what (none / 0) (#130)
    by CoralGables on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 03:50:22 PM EST
    he told his family the next day which was then repeated to the media, and from there on repeated as fact (not that I think it matters either way)

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    It might not (none / 0) (#131)
    by sj on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 11:15:40 PM EST
    (not that I think it matters either way)
    But it's always kind of bothered me in a niggling sort of way.  I mean, Martin's "errand" was clear.  And he had the evidence in his pockets.  Zimmerman's "errand" was always just an "errand" and used to indicate that he wasn't "on-patrol". With his gun.  Which could be construed as looking for trouble.  

    I guess because while I might tell someone on the phone "gotta go, I have errands to run" in speaking about it later I would probably just say "I needed dog food".  But those are my patterns and I can't really expect everyone to speak as I would.  

    Like I said, it bothered me in a niggling sort of way.  

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    What on earth (none / 0) (#6)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:05:14 PM EST
    could Slate have done wrong?

    I think the site is great, particularly the Political Gabfest podcast, which leans left but tries to see both sides, which is what I want out of my political analysis.

    Also, Atrios is completely unhinged and unreadable at this point.  Spouting on about super smart solutions that are completely unachievable and the fact that he wants us all walking and riding the bikes which for those of us living outside of places like his homebase, is impossible.  

    Ask a Atlantan of moderate means if there is any way they could survive walking or riding their bike.  It's all horse caca.

    What are you talking about? (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:29:23 PM EST
    On Atrios:

    Spouting on about super smart solutions that are completely unachievable

    ...he mainly talks about solutions that have worked in the past, and his resigned apathy in the face that people keep pushing solutions that have failed over and over, in the face of universally acknowledged probles.

    and the fact that he wants us all walking and riding the bikes which for those of us living outside of places like his homebase, is impossible.  

    He states again and again (for the benefit of folks like you, apparently in vain) that he does NOT want us "all" to go without cars or live in, as he calls them, "urban hellholes". Virtually every post about urban development policy includes a disclaimer noting that he does NOT view such policies as universally applicable and that, mostly, he would just like cities to enact policies that help urban areas achieve the benefits of the pre-existing dense urbanization without being hobbled by poorly applied faux-suburban conceits like parking lots and strip malls and lack of public transit.

    I can understand stylistic reasons to not read much Atrios, he's snarky and irreverent on virtually everything. I can also understand not enjoying his "low calorie" form of blogging, which occasionally approaches "anti-blogging". But you've picked two things that aren't even accurate. That are the reverse of accurate. Strange.

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    Someday an edit button will reach these shores (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:54:40 PM EST
    ...he mainly talks about solutions that have worked in the past, and his resigned apathy in the face that people keep pushing solutions that have failed over and over, in the face of universally acknowledged probles.

    should read:

    ...he mainly talks about solutions that have worked in the past, and his resigned apathy that people keep pushing solutions that have failed over and over, in the face of universally acknowledged problems.


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    As near as I can tell (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by sj on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:57:27 PM EST
    in ABG's eyes, everyone who trends liberal is unhinged and unrealistic.  IMO

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    I disagree (none / 0) (#102)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:08:31 PM EST
    respectfully.

    I read him regularly for years until it just got to be too much a few months ago and I stand by my take.

    We could go back and forth on quotes but the bottom line for me is that his urban change suggestions are completely unworkable even in cities like his home town. From cost components to the necessity to make changes to all parts of the city simultaneously, they just do not work.  Better (and far more realistic) to advocate for smaller, EU sized/style cars, motorcycles, high fuel efficiency, etc.  

    As for his non-transportation ideas, they are increasingly unworkable. He moved from someone providing real energy and ideas to someone who just sits on the sidelines and throws snark bombs at everything.

    I think if you read only Eschaton posts for a month, you would come away with the idea that the world is a terrible place, there are no good politicians anywhere or any type, and that it is all hopeless.

    Fine if you are into that sort of thing, but it's not for me.

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    This is a revealing comment (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:44:42 PM EST
    I guess so (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by sj on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:55:26 PM EST
    But most of that was revealed long ago.

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    Revealing is not the same as (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by rhbrandon on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 01:56:16 PM EST
    illuminating.

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    okay (none / 0) (#25)
    by sj on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 02:13:07 PM EST
    Whatever it takes.

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    Maybe (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 02:44:42 PM EST
    ABG is really blogger for Romney as he seems to be a better advocate for the GOP than the people who REALLY ARE republicans on this site.

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    I don't like (none / 0) (#107)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:18:46 PM EST
    Atrios so I am a blogger for Romney.

    That's a special extra crispy version of crazy right there.

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    A version of crazy you should be (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by sj on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 03:10:19 PM EST
    familiar with, as you serve it out so often.  As in your contention that if we don't vote for Obama we're voting for Romney.  

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    Nope (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 03:24:00 PM EST
    that comment had nothing to really do with Atrios so much as your general blogging history. Your comments about how Obama can't do this or that are some of the best advocacy for voting for Romney I've seen around here.

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    One man's 'inane, bordering on surreal' (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 02:00:39 PM EST
    is another man's 'great'...

    Takes all kinds...

    Parent

    Revealing (none / 0) (#106)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:17:55 PM EST
    Of course it is revealing.  

    There are those of us who like Sullivan, Slate, Yglesias, Cohn, Klein, Booman, Coates, TPM.

    There are those of us who like Atrios, FDL, Greenwald,etc.

    The only thing revealed about this is what it says when someone declares liberals of a certain line of thinking per se inferior.

    I disagree with Greenwald, for example, on a great deal, but would never treat him as Yglesias is treated by many here. Same with Atrios, although he frustrates the isht out of me. They have much to add to the discussion and deserve the place they have made for themselves.

    But again, I don't start from the idea that I know it all and have a lock on all things liberal or progressive or otherwise good. I am capable of being proven wrong and don't recoil from the possibility.

    Parent

    People who are not liberal shouldn't (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by observed on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 06:08:53 PM EST
    appropriate the label. Anyway, does "M.L". Sullivan call himself a liberal these days?


    Parent
    RETREAT!!! (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Addison on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 06:16:35 PM EST
    You before the pushback (emphasis added):

    Also, Atrios is completely unhinged and unreadable at this point.  Spouting on about super smart solutions that are completely unachievable and the fact that he wants us all walking and riding the bikes which for those of us living outside of places like his homebase, is impossible.  

    Ask a Atlantan of moderate means if there is any way they could survive walking or riding their bike.  It's all horse caca.

    You after the pushback (emphasis added):

    I disagree with Greenwald, for example, on a great deal, but would never treat him as Yglesias is treated by many here. Same with Atrios, although he frustrates the isht out of me. They have much to add to the discussion and deserve the place they have made for themselves.

    What a joke. You made crap up about a liberal blogger you didn't like, calling his opinions "horse caca" and "unhinged". Then when there was a reaction against that you went into the "well they're all good and it's just that everyone isn't as accepting as me" routine. The tide washes away the sand beneath your feet.

    A bookmarkable example of your duplicity.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#114)
    by sj on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 03:11:20 PM EST
    So that's what you think it reveals?

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    Good thing, that (none / 0) (#122)
    by sj on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:33:39 PM EST
    But again, I don't start from the idea that I know it all and have a lock on all things liberal or progressive or otherwise good.
    Although there isn't much but your words to prove it true.

    Parent
    Messages for Eastertide. (none / 0) (#30)
    by KeysDan on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 03:47:59 PM EST
    The Reverend Rick Warren: Not satisfied with Obama's "compromise" on contraception, and, picking up Santorum's charge, blasts the use of 'freedom of worship' v "freedom of religion" used by the president.  The later, he claims, means limiting what the church does to only an hour on Sunday morning as worship. (Bush used the same language, but that does not count, apparently.)

    Catholic Bishops: Campaneros, a small non-profit in rural Colorado that helps poor Hispanic immigrants was in danger of losing financing because, in an immigrant rights coalition, the group joined forces with a statewide gay advocacy group.

    A parish in Virginia banned the Girl Scouts from using their facilities owing to a (mis)perceived connection with Planned Parenthood.

    Cardinal Dolan: On Easter Saturday, Jos. Amodeo, a member of NY's Catholic Charities board resigned after he claimed Cardinal Dolan failed to respond to a "call for help" for homeless youth who are not heterosexual.

    Cardinal Dolan (on a roll)  responded Easter Sunday,  on "Face the Nation" , to Santorum's reaction to JKF's 1960's speech on separation of church and state by "almost throwing up" with,  "I find myself, believe it or not, agreeing with both of them."  (thanks for the Ripley's option).  "Senator Santorum had a good point, because, unfortunately, what Kennedy said has been misinterpreted to mean that a separation of church and state means a cleavage, a wall, between one's faith and one's political decisions.....I don't think Kennedy meant that."  "I'd agree with Senator Santorum that, unfortunately, that's been misrepresented to mean that faith has no place in the public square."   It seems the JFK speech would not cause the Cardinal to vomit as much as to release a lesser and stealthier gastro-intestinal eruption.

    And last, but not least, was the Easter message of the German Shepard to his flock at the Vatican,  who worried that we were "groping in the darkness" in reference to problems in the Austrian church, with opinions such as women in the priesthood.  Women, after all, do not look like God.

    ha! (none / 0) (#64)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 10:27:07 AM EST
    "I'd agree with Senator Santorum that, unfortunately, that's been misrepresented to mean that faith has no place in the public square."  

    Yes, it has been misrepresented....by Sen. Santorum. Make it stop please.

    Parent

    Yes, misrepresentation is (none / 0) (#67)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 11:52:01 AM EST
    an agenda shared by Santorum and Dolan, plus Dolan (and his fellow Bishops) seem to have an agenda called "let's change the subject".  In 2011, Dolan thanked Bill Donohue, the Catholic activist, for a press release, reproduced on the Archdiocesan website, in which Donohue referred to the non-profit support group, "Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests", a 'phony victims group.'

    Parent
    GA and MT (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:08:15 PM EST
    It seems to me that non-Christians are more worried about what the Christians are doing to drive off church members than the Christians are.

    Yeah, Christians.. esp. evangelical (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by observed on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:13:23 PM EST
    Christians, are totally uninterested in the question of how many people are attending church.

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    Nope (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:15:36 PM EST
    I am a Christian. Once again, you don't pay attention to what I have written.

    I would think you would join me in my goal of marginalizing these people. They are literally nuts and give Christians a bad name.

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    You really shouldn't speak for ... (5.00 / 0) (#104)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 02:12:48 PM EST
    ... "Christians", particularly given your history of misstating their beliefs, which cover a much broader spectrum than your own.

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    From my understanding (none / 0) (#73)
    by CST on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 12:11:09 PM EST
    GA is a Christian.

    Parent