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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

How about that Cory Booker? Great surrogate for Obama ay? Prime time speaking gig at the Dem Convention you think? Wait, make that the GOP Convention.

Open Thread.

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    The wingnutters around me (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2012 at 08:57:34 AM EST
    were really giving me some crap....until....until...this giant blowup opened the door for Obama to explain to teenaged mentalists the difference between being President of the United States responsible for all U.S. citizens and living to maximize profits.  BANG POW!

    And Cory Booker needs to take his (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:02:23 AM EST
    ball and go home.  He throws it out there, it hits the wall that he pretends was never there, and then bounces back and hits him in the face while he is wearing a "D" jersey.  Go home Cory while you still can! Or maybe he can find a new home?

    Parent
    Shrug (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:50:28 AM EST
    Polls right now are showing the Bain issue is having little effect on voters minds.  Unless the Democrats can come up with more, this story has legs for about another 2 weeks.

    Voters are repeating what the politicians are paying lip service too - we want jobs now and in the future.  Bain, Rev. Wright, prep school actions, doing coke - no one outside the Beltway pundits and bloggers care.

    Parent

    except that (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:02:25 AM EST
    if Romney continues trying to make his business experience the center of his campaign platform - it's not going to go anywhere.  The difference between that and everything else you mentioned is that it cuts to the heart of Romney's message.  Neither of them are running on Rev. Wright or prep school or anything else like that.

    So either Romney has to find a new message or Bain is going to keep coming up.

    Parent

    Well that's probably true (none / 0) (#7)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:04:29 AM EST
    So either Romney has to find a new message or Bain is going to keep coming up.
    He might not have a hard time doing that, though.

    Parent
    He could start running on his record as gov. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:05:54 AM EST
    Oh wait...

    Parent
    He doesn't need to limn his own record (none / 0) (#10)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:07:16 AM EST
    He can get a message by limning O's.

    Parent
    Maybe Romney could talk about (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:09:59 AM EST
    his extensive experience as a community organizer.

    Parent
    You shouldn't make me laugh (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:16:52 AM EST
    like that when I'm getting ready for a very serious meeting.

    Parent
    Community organizer.. (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:18:03 PM EST
    Yeah imagaine that..someone who was slumming it down on the ground talking with real human beings about their real problems and attempting to contribute to devising some sustainable, creative solutions.

    Since when (before the endlessly embittering 2008)
    did working as a community organizer become such a paltry experience for a leader to have in his background? such endless fodder for condescending nudge-nudge, wink-wink inside jokes from Hillary's avenging angels (and btw, I think on the whole, her nibs is doing a great job)

    Nothing like the "Left" internalizing the memes of the Reich..(we're not Liberals in any traditional sense..)

    Too bad O didn't spend more of his time doing things like standing up for cops charged with tazing homeless people and handcuffing gradeschoolers, now that would've been impressive..

    Parent

    True (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:23:48 PM EST
    If Obama actually had lots of good history as a community organizer too.  Too bad very little was done and there wasn't a host of people giving testimonials as to how he helped them. Then the claim wouldn't have become a joke.

    THAT would have been impressive.

    Parent

    If there were testimonials (2.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:29:46 PM EST
    you'd ignore them anyway.

    Because he's a bad bad man.

    Parent

    No, he's not (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:34:41 PM EST
    a "bad, bad man".  He's just not a good president.

    Parent
    a very good man.. (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:40:22 PM EST
    just a very bad wizard..

    If you think George W. Romney will be any improvement, good luck with that one.

    We've let money take over (because unconsciously, even if they deny it, Americans equate power and virtue) and so we're left with the choice of Obama or Romney. Pretty much end of story.

    Parent

    an improvement ? No (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue May 22, 2012 at 06:00:25 PM EST
    But I think some people believe that another four years of Obama will guarantee a republican win in 2016 and perhaps another in 2020.  So after 8 years of Obama we get at least four of a republican and it is likely to be Jeb Bush or that sexist slob from NJ.
    If Obama loses, we might have a better chance at a democrat in 2016 who holds actual democratic values, is at least a bit of a populist and knows policy and isn't forced to trust advisers for absolutely everything.

    Parent
    Ah, finally something I may agree with (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by NYShooter on Tue May 22, 2012 at 06:26:29 PM EST
    You're not alone in thinking that maybe things may have to get worse before they get better. Unless the American people get a first hand taste of what their lives will be when the Republicans and Ruppert Murdoch are in total contol this slow drip to an Oligarchy will continue

    Parent
    Are we better off now than we were before (none / 0) (#163)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 06:30:01 PM EST
    Al Gore lost in 2000 because of Nader?

    Parent
    Where ya going to find one of those? (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Rojas on Tue May 22, 2012 at 06:33:16 PM EST
    a democrat in 2016 who holds actual democratic values, is at least a bit of a populist and knows policy and isn't forced to trust advisers for absolutely everything.


    Parent
    I don't (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:47:05 PM EST
    think anyone things that Romney will be an improvement but I think a lot of people are thinking  well, Obama had a chance to do something and he largely punted. He listened to the wrong people for advice and not having a lot of legislative experience probably did not know that it was bad advice. Obama's problem largely has been that he though you could be bipartisan with crazy which you cannot and his lack of experience.

    Parent
    I think by now we have to admit that (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Anne on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:03:58 PM EST
    Obama listened to the people he wanted to listen to; there were plenty of people saying the kinds of things that would actually lead - or get closer to - the things he spoke so eloquently about, but he didn't choose them.

    If you surround yourself with Wall Streeters and bankers, that's the perspective you're going to get, and as we were teetering on the brink of economic collapse, he chose to go with people from the very sector that took us there.

    And that industry, largely protected from accountability or consequence, shows every sign of having learned nothing from the insanity of the past, and is edging its way back into speculative, complex, high-risk activities.  

    Obama will be vocal in rejecting Romney, even as he continues the policies of the past and looks ahead to the future.

    Glenn again, with a little Tom Coburn:

    Despite the industry's petulant anger, Wall Street has thrived under the Obama administration, and even in those areas where the White House had full authority and the ability to help ordinary Americans -- such as the HAMP fund to aid defaulting homeowners -- they displayed overwhelming indifference. Not only did President Obama propose large cuts to Social Security and Medicare, he has been assuring Washington insiders such as GOP Sen. Tom Coburn that he intends even larger ones if re-elected:

    If President Obama is president again, those problems are still there and we have to solve them. He knows that. We've had conversations where he's told me he'll go much further than anyone believes he'll go to solve the entitlement problem if he can get the compromise. And I believe him. I believe he would.

    In sum, as is typically true, there is a huge gap between tactical Election Year rhetorical posturing and the reality of whose interests the two parties are serving.

    Seriously.  And it can't be shoved off on "bad advice."

    Parent

    Those (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:17:23 PM EST
    might have been the people he wanted to listen too but still it was a decision that he made.

    I've never believed the "bad advice" thing. That's the kind of the thinking the GOP did w/r/t to George W. Bush and Iraq--that he was "mislead" by his advisors.

    Parent

    most of the deals were cut (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    and compromises made before he even stepped into the Oval Office for the first time..

    The way things are arranged now, nobody (and I mean nobody) gets anywhere near the switch who's going to cut too much into the major shareholder's profit margins..

    So in that sense, there wasn't a chance, and the "punting" is going on everyday in a thousand different places in the Beltway.  

    Parent

    So once again (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:09:12 PM EST
    Everything bad is not his fault - but everything good that has happened, is to his credit?

    Parent
    Everything.. (4.20 / 5) (#72)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:52:26 PM EST
    you remind of what Sylvia Plath's mother said about her: Sylvia's favorite words were everything and nothing..always and never..

    I'm talking about major SYSTEMIC breakdown here and you folks are still fixated on switching housebands on a military-industrial Titanic.

    Parent

    Obama couldn't get the job done (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:46:35 PM EST
    so nobody else could either?  Bullsh*t, that is such a cop out.  He was not what you thought or hoped. He was not who he said and he was not near experienced enough to be president.  There were handfuls of people who could have done better.

    Parent
    So what's your point? (none / 0) (#101)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:05:32 PM EST
    Vote for Obama or Romney or someone else or not at all?

    Parent
    Speaking for myself (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:42:04 PM EST
    Vote for Obama or Romney or someone else or not at all?
    I have to say what I've always said.  Each must vote his or her conscience.  I will not presume to tell you what your conscience must say.  But, absent other information, I would assume that it a conclusion reached in sincerity and after much thought.

    I would hope that you would give me the same consideration.

    Parent

    Sure. Vote your conscience (none / 0) (#124)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:00:15 PM EST
    But don't be afraid to say what your conscience tells you and sway people to your POV.

    So when I ask TheresainPA that question after she roasts Obama as the second coming of Satan, I want to know what her point is.

    Obama does suck, but then he doesn't sometimes, or he's forced not to suck because he carries the banner of a party that has a lot of people I agree with, or he sucks less and letting the alternative happen is unconscionable. I guess I don't see the point of trashing Obama without a reasonable alternative or solution in mind. Who else can progressives vote for at this point. I would have loved to have seen a primary, but it didn't happen. Now what?

    Parent

    OK. As long as "swaying people" (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:22:55 PM EST
    is limited to promoting your own view point and not castigating theirs.  But when I see this
    Who else can progressives vote for at this point.
    I can't take you seriously as someone who respects the conscience of another.  You're telling me that I must vote your conscience.  

    I don't have to propose a "reasonable alternative or solution" to you.  I only have to be able to live with myself.

    Now what?  I take the long view.  I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am going to hate the next four years.  At least.  And that's if Obama loses.  If he wins I am going to hate at least the next eight years.  And I expect he will win.

    I wish I could say I look forward to the result, but I really don't.

    On second thought maybe you didn't mean people like me because I am a liberal.  A dyed-in-the-wool, bleeding heart, union supporting, equal rights promoting, help the vulnerable liberal.  Progressives can do what they want.  That's no concern of my liberal self.

    Parent

    You don't have to vote my conscience (none / 0) (#140)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:32:08 PM EST
    But I'll be happier if you do. And I'll judge you by your choice, and all your previous choices, and if you choose wrong consistently, I'll criticize you. And if you're in my family, I'll still eat turkey with you on Thanksgiving and love you anyway.

    By the way, your real name wouldn't happen to be uncle Dave would it?

    Parent

    btw (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:53:43 PM EST
    you almost annoyed me enough to set me off again.  Because this?
    and if you choose wrong consistently, I'll criticize you.
    is where you are telling me once again that your conscience is where I must go. Because this isn't disagreement, even passionate disagreement.  It is arrogance.  It assumes that you have the "right" answers.  It is the height of arrogance.

    Because I think you are wrong.  And that what you are working for hurts this country.  And that pretending that an oligarchy isn't really running this nation hurts this country. And I think that weakening labor hurts this country.  And I think that refusing to prosecute the banksters hurts this country.  And I think the tumble into a constant surveillance state hurts this country. And using Bowles-Simpson as a starting point for even more draconian cuts hurts this country.

    But I think I would like your Uncle Dave, so I won't give in to the righteous anger that would ordinarily righteously build.  And I won't tell you how clear it is that you are consistently choosing wrong.

    Parent

    I know I'm not always right... (none / 0) (#153)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 05:02:47 PM EST
    but at present, I think I am. And people like you have changed my mind before, and will again. And, when I change my choice I will criticize people who chose the way I would have before you changed my mind for not seeing what you showed me. And I am as hard on myself for the choices I've made that were wrong in hindsight as I am to anyone else. And we are run by an oligarchy and the banks and etc. But at least Obama has come out against Citizens United in Alito's face at a SOTU speech, and maybe our decent into hell will be slowed by 4 more years of the "meh" than 4 years of Satan on steroids. And you're STILL wrong until you change my mind, and I'll judge you for or worse regardless.

    Parent
    ::shrug:: (none / 0) (#155)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 05:19:07 PM EST
    You can have the lost wrong word.

    Parent
    Who is (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by Zorba on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:56:30 PM EST
    "wrong"?  You seem to be willing to judge sj as being "wrong consistently" by your standards.  You have the right to your opinions, and you have the right to defend them.  But categorically calling someone else "wrong" because they do not agree with your opinions?  They may see things differently than you do.  I have lots of friends who are very conservative Republicans, for instance.  I don't call them "wrong."  I don't agree with them, and we have many lively discussions, but when you start calling people "wrong" because they disagree with you, you cut off all possibility of reasonable debate.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#146)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:42:19 PM EST
    By the way, your real name wouldn't happen to be uncle Dave would it?
    but if he sounds like me, he sounds like someone that I could call "friend".

    Parent
    More like the second coming of Bush. (none / 0) (#130)
    by me only on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:16:58 PM EST
    That he called McCain McSame and then turned out to be McSame is kinda McLame.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:18:09 PM EST
    then it won't make any difference whether Obama or Romney win in November then will it?

    Parent
    Hmm.... (none / 0) (#56)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:19:45 PM EST
    Obama's remarks on worst job growth: Did he end it or should he own it?

    "The ideas that [Republicans are] putting forward have been tried. We tried them between 2000 and 2008, and it resulted in the most sluggish job growth that we've ever seen, resulted in all kinds of phony financial profits and debt, and resulted in the worst financial crisis and economic crisis we've seen since the 1930s." -- President Obama during a campaign event in New York City, May 14, 2012

    SNIP

    There's no doubt that Bush owns an unimpressive record on job creation. But Obama comes in either last, second-to-last or in the bottom half among presidents since the Great Depression, depending on which way you look at the numbers.

    The president said that policies from 2000 through 2008 produced the "most sluggish job growth we've ever seen." Perhaps so, but the worst numbers on record occurred under his watch.

    Obama chose a poor metric for measuring past administrations. To make his point with jobs data, he has to point to his own numbers and completely disavow much of them, or else ignore public-sector losses. We came close to thinking this was worth Three Pinocchios, but ultimately decided he was not necessarily including his record in the statement. Still, it's a very fine line. The president should be much more careful about making such a sweeping claim.



    Parent
    He has been better lately (none / 0) (#57)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:23:28 PM EST
    An election year conversion probably, but I'll take it. Hopefully Obama's second term will be better now that he knows Republicans elevate party over country and now that Rahm is not his chief of staff anymore.

    Parent
    Agreed, It would have been. (none / 0) (#85)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:16:32 PM EST
    jbindc: "If Obama actually had lots of good history as a community organizer too.  Too bad very little was done and there wasn't a host of people giving testimonials as to how he helped them. Then the claim wouldn't have become a joke."

    But unfortunately for the vast majority of people who live in economically challenged communities and are struggling to make ends meet, they don't necessarily have the time or wherewithal to stop and offer a political testimonial to some public official who was simply doing his or her job. Speaking as someone who presently works with these sorts of people, that's just the reality of the situation.

    Of far better use, I would think, would be the opinions of Barack Obama's peers in the field, and / or job performance reviews from his supervisors. Contrary to popular opinion, most community organizers are not freelance artists. There's actually a method to the madness.

    If Obama the community organizer was getting paid by a non-profit, then someone had to have been providing oversight. And if he was getting paid from a public or private grant administered by said nonprofit, then someone had to file a closing report, detailing what was accomplished with the grant funds.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    We're you of the opinion (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:03:43 PM EST
    Sen. Obama's experience was sufficient to portend a good  President?

    Parent
    I didn't think it mattered at first (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:45:44 PM EST
    After he was elected and he wouldn't let go of the bipartisan crap and he was face planted and face planted and face planted I then thought it mattered and as a wishful voter I had miscalculated.  The President also seemed to go through a period of being overly depressed too.  Not very reassuring for me.

    I think this President has now begun to hit his stride though.  (While ducking) I have seen this President wake up in the past six months and begin to shed some of the bipartisan crap and discover a different spine than the one he planned on using.  He has begun to have some austerity doubts too.  Obama is my man in this election far above and beyond anything Romney offers.

    Parent

    Obama is not as hated (none / 0) (#18)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:17:29 AM EST
    as Bush was in those days.

    Parent
    I'll be honest (none / 0) (#20)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:20:20 AM EST
    I'm not sure what your point is.  Is that the yardstick you're using?  He isn't as hated as Bush?

    On the other hand, Bush was hated and was still re-elected.  I guess it's anybody's game, isn't it?  I just don't like defining who loses at the end of it.

    Parent

    2008 vs. 2004 (none / 0) (#22)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:25:26 AM EST
    The part about Obama was referring to '08.  It's enough to "not be the other guy" when the other guy is Bush in '08.  But not when it's Bush '04.

    My point is he wasn't well liked in '04 but he still won, because when you aren't despised, "I'm not the other guy" usually isn't enough.  In '08 it was, in '04 it wasn't.  I see this as more of an '04 situation.

    For what it's worth, I'm just discussing the horse race aspect of it, not policy.

    Parent

    yes (none / 0) (#16)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:16:13 AM EST
    but then he runs the risk of being the R version of John Kerry.  Which is actually where I've seen this going the whole time.

    Frankly I welcome attacks from the right, because I would like to see O stake out more of a position on the left to differentiate.  At least have someone out there making the case for it.

    Parent

    You got it, CST (none / 0) (#55)
    by christinep on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:19:43 PM EST
    I think that Bain is the entry, the first phase, in which Romney's chief claim to purported economic know-how is answered...answered methodically by the Administration & the DNC via ad narratives telling the story of Bain's (aka Romney's)debt-loading acquired plants leading to axes workers, plant closings, jobs shipped overseas, & the resultant huge profits for Romney, Bain, & the vulture capitalist cronies.

    Next--as you suggest--will be a detailed review of how this "economic know-how" translated to his role as Massachusetts governor...how he steered the state to the soaks of being the 47th  of 50 states in creating jobs.  (Some of his statements in his earlier Mass race could be expected as wedge-like device also.)

    Then, taking the theme forward, the Obama campaign sets up the unavoidable comparison ... The comparison hinted at in the WP poll released today that, even now, spells Advantage Obama.

    As for the Booker incident (now that my blood pressure has come down & my mouth is no longer frothing):  lots of aspects to what-appears-at-first-blush to be an undermining attack by surrogate Booker.  It certainly has put the Bain situation in the news...it certainly offered a well-reported opportunity for the President to highlight that the Presidency calls for representing all people in equity markets and otherwise...it certainly opens the door for the media to examine Bain realities & ramifications a bit more than a DNC-sponsored ad would.  Yet, who knows?  It does look like Booker became "surrogate" for Booker...but, remember that the Mayor of Newark already had lots of political capital and lots of party people at-the-ready to support him for his next step. An aside:  He keynoted the annual Dem Jefferson-Jackson dinner in Colorado this year...powerful speech, brilliant spokesperson, as far away as possible from namby-pamby.  What happened?  Again, who knows?

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#11)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:09:05 AM EST
    You assume most people understand private equity and how it works.

    I also think that since, historically, private equity firms have given way more money to Democrats, and in 2008 alone gave almost $2 million, according to the WaPo (can't link right now), they have to tread very carefully here, lest they bite one of the hands that has generously been feeding them.  They won't do that.

    Parent

    I actually assume they don't (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:12:24 AM EST
    which is why it's easy to run a campaign ad against it.  Because you can simplify it down to "we lost jobs".

    Also, a lot of the money has already switched teams, and they are already running those ads.  So I don't see why they'd stop that attack now.

    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#19)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:18:10 AM EST
    But I think that people realize that companies go out of business sometimes.  The last 5 years are indications of that.  And if Romney can show, as Ed Rendell and Michael Steele were talking about on Al Sharpton's show, that under his tenure at Bain, 78% of the companies saved or gained jobs, then that be a wash.

    Come November, the jobs issue is going to be more personal to voters.  And it comes down to the old question - "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?"  If most voters say, "No", then that is the ballgame.

    All the other stuff that we've heard so far and will hear for the next 5 months is all noise.

    Parent

    there's a second part to that question (none / 0) (#21)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:21:47 AM EST
    which is do you think you will be better off 4 years from now with Obama or Romney.

    Parent
    If that question (none / 0) (#23)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:26:35 AM EST
    works for you I completely understand it.  But personally, choosing between "really, really bad" and "very, very bad" doesn't make me pull any levers.

    Parent
    Right now (none / 0) (#24)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:26:36 AM EST
    at this snapshot in time, several polls are showing that (slim) majorities are answering that question by saying "Romney".  And that's AFTER the first wave of Bain attacks.

    Parent
    as you so often like to point out (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:40:42 AM EST
    it's a long way till november, and voters aren't really paying attention yet.

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the debates, it might force both of them to actually take a position.

    I wonder what Romney will say at that point.  My economic plan is to... "cut taxes for the rich?"  "de-regulate wall street more?"  "wave my magic jobs wand?"

    And I want to know what Obama will say as well.  Because I'm not sure what his plan is going forward at this point other than damage control, but he needs one.  Damage control is enough for me, but I'm not sure whether it will be enough come november.

    Parent

    Obama's message - what he says - will (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Anne on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:44:40 AM EST
    of course strike the right message, as seen in his comments yesterday - here's a portion of them:

    And when you're President, as opposed to the head of a private equity firm, then your job is not simply to maximize profits. Your job is to figure out how everybody in the country has a fair shot. Your job is to think about those workers who got laid off and how are we paying for their retraining. Your job is to think about how those communities can start creating new clusters so that they can attract new businesses. Your job as President is to think about how do we set up a equitable tax system so that everybody is paying their fair share that allows us then to invest in science and technology and infrastructure, all of which are going to help us grow.

    And so, if your main argument for how to grow the economy is I knew how to make a lot of money for investors, then you're missing what this job is about. It doesn't mean you weren't good at private equity, but that's not what my job is as President. My job is to take into account everybody, not just some. My job is to make sure that the country is growing not just now, but 10 years from now and 20 years from now.

    Sounds great, right?

    Well, here's David Dayen's take:

    You talk in somewhat populist terms about how a President has to look out for the little guy. You do it in such a way that you don't demean private equity. You talk about retraining and equitability and employment clusters and investments. And you come off sounding like the one who cares about the average worker in the street instead of turning a profit.

    Now the next day you go back to Wall Street and ask them for some more money. And you make sure that none of their misdeeds go punished. And you make sure that the constraints on their businesses are as minimal as possible. It turns out they still don't like you, because you want to raise their tax rates by about 2% and your opponent wants to shower them with millions. And you scratch your head and wonder how a group of people who you've bent over backward for can turn on you so quickly.

    And as long as Dems keep beating the deficit drum and continuing to float ideas for "fixing" the programs that are all about the little guy, it's a harder argument to make that Dems are the party that's going to be the better and fairer fiscal steward.

    Most people may not understand private equity and hedge funds, but they do know what's fair; the GOP will be less fair, but the Dems aren't looking to best them on that score by much that there's really all that much difference.

    To me, it's a recipe for "why should I bother?" to be the question more voters end up asking themselves come November.


    Parent

    Bingo, again (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:09:52 PM EST
    And when you're President, as opposed to the head of a private equity firm, then your job is not simply to maximize profits. Your job is to figure out how everybody in the country has a fair shot. Your job is to think about those workers who got laid off and how are we paying for their retraining. Your job is to think about how those communities can start creating new clusters so that they can attract new businesses. Your job as President is to think about how do we set up a equitable tax system so that everybody is paying their fair share that allows us then to invest in science and technology and infrastructure, all of which are going to help us grow.

    That would be so awesome if the President actually DID that part of his job!

    Parent

    BING maybe, I think you're missing an O (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:24:25 PM EST
    seems to me, it would be real easy to hit up google and find proposals or passed legislation (see auto bailouts) where the administration either did, or are trying to do, all these things.

    Unless of course, you want to believe otherwise.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:44:33 AM EST
    which is why I said "at this snapshot in time".

    I agree, the debates should be interesting.  Romney is a better debater than McCain and Obama will actually have to defend a record this time.

    Parent

    Disagree (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:46:56 AM EST
    There's a lot of Bain stories, a lot of lost jobs, and it all leads in nicely to the steady drumbeat of "release your tax returns Mr. Romney."

    The issue is the backbone of the Obama negative spin and for Booker to have drawn a false equivalency between Bain and Rev. Wright must have had Rove rofl'ing for hours.

    And did Booker look like someone whose political aspirations for higher offices were swirling down the toilet on Maddow's show last night?

    There's a diary at Kos that suggests that Booker inadvertently kept the Bain issue prominent in the news cycle, and that people have such negative opinions of money-grubbers that the net effect of Bookergate will benefit Obama. Maybe and I hope so.

    Parent

    Ah, be fair (none / 0) (#31)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:53:12 AM EST
    Maddow and Booker went to Stanford together and are long-time friends.. She constantly throws him softballs (as she always does to those she agrees with).  

    Parent
    Maddow was softball... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:57:30 AM EST
    ... and even still Booker looked nervous and rushed. He was backpedaling like mad.

    Parent
    Maddow is a very good journalist. (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:17:25 PM EST
    And good journalists don't always go for the jugular. And honestly, why should she with Booker, when he was obviously quite content to fasten a noose from the rope she had thoughtfully given him.

    These last few days have certainly not been shining moments for Cory Booker. but there won't be any lasting damage, and in fact, his Meet the Press gaffe may have inadvertantly done the Obama campaign a great big favor, by compelling the Grand Poobah himself to defend his campaign's decision to focus public attention upon Romney's role at Bain Capital, which he did with aplomb yesterday at that presser in Chicago.

    But still, Booker won't be let outside without a handler for the foreseeable future.

    Parent

    No, she really isn't (5.00 / 2) (#200)
    by jbindc on Wed May 23, 2012 at 06:46:04 AM EST
    She is in no way a journalist - she's a pundit, espousing one point of view on her own show, and who heavily edits her show to reflect that point of view.  

    And for someone with a PhD, she isn't very bright sometimes. This was clearly self evident the day she was interviewing Jon Stewart and she kept saying that she and Stewart did the same job - Stewart kept correcting her and pointing out that, no, she was on a news channel and supposed to be giving the news, while he was a comedian on Comedy Central.  She didn't understand this obvious point, and kept giggling her way through the interview, even though Stewart repeated it several times, and was clearly getting frustrated with her.

    Parent

    And voters, especially mature voters (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:01:17 AM EST
    have faced enough difficult decisions in life to understand that sometimes people have to be fired in order for a company to survive.

    And yes, people who gamble they can save a company want a big return to make up for the times it doesn't work out.

    In the meantime Obama and his minions can whine that life isn't fair but the government will make it fair...

    Can anyone here spell Solyandra????

    Parent

    Lots of us can spell it (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:06:33 AM EST
    Can anyone here spell Solyandra????
    We just don't feel the need to.  Because we can also spell "red herring".


    Parent
    Every new meaningful fuel tech (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:16:00 AM EST
    development this nation has ever experienced and enjoyed had several private business busts too.

    Parent
    As Bill Clinton said (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:41:50 AM EST
    We need a green tech bubble.  That doesn't mean it's financially viable.  It means when the bubble bursts, we have a whole bunch of leftover green fuel technology.  Better than empty houses.

    Parent
    You know who is fighting the (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:44:09 AM EST
    bigshots hard who are trying to destroy new fuel development is the military.  I read the Republicans are trying to or have pulled THAT specific pentagon funding out of that bloated POS fat beyond pork military spending bill.

    The Pentagon argues though that we cannot allow "the markets" to dictate how safe we can make our nation, therefore we must have fuel tech and fuel available that skirts around markets and scarcity barriers.  

    It speaks sad volumes about the state of our democracy that the only sector of our "democracy" who stands a chance of making a fight out of this with the fatcats are those who have agreed to kill when a little killing needs done.  But that's the state we are in, so GO ARMY!  BEAT HALLIBURTON!

    Parent

    MT, so you really believe that?? (none / 0) (#182)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:46:56 PM EST
    MT, solar panels are (none / 0) (#180)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:36:03 PM EST
    not new technology.

    And those private business busts were????

    Parent

    they eat that stuff (none / 0) (#81)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:07:57 PM EST
    breaded at Tea Party conclaves.

    Parent
    $500 billion buys a lot of red herring. (none / 0) (#181)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:44:39 PM EST
    Sooner or later the herrings will be jumping all over the place.

    Parent
    I think we have only just begun (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:14:47 AM EST
    to honestly have this conversation on a national level.

    Parent
    Cory Booker's since-walked-back (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by Anne on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:51:29 AM EST
    comments illustrate the problems Dems are going to encounter in this election campaign: getting on board with attacking Republicans for the same kinds of things Dems have been engaging in.  In one fell swoop, Cory Booker's value as an Obama surrogate has been neutralized, because how, really, do you join the attacks on Romney and Bain when, according to both Think Progress and Glenn without being labeled a hypocrite of some considerable order?

    Here's TP:

    A ThinkProgress examination of New Jersey campaign finance records for Booker's first run for Mayor -- back in 2002 -- suggests a possible reason for his unease with attacks on Bain Capital and venture capital. They were among his earliest and most generous backers.

    Contributions to his 2002 campaign from venture capitalists, investors, and big Wall Street bankers brought him more than $115,000 for his 2002 campaign. Among those contributing to his campaign were John Connaughton ($2,000), Steve Pagliuca ($2,200), Jonathan Lavine ($1,000) -- all of Bain Capital. While the forms are not totally clear, it appears the campaign raised less than $800,000 total, making this a significant percentage.

    And here's Glenn quoting The Hill:

    Democrats have accepted more political donations than Republicans from executives at Bain Capital, complicating the left's plan to attack Mitt Romney for his record at the private-equity firm.

    During the last three election cycles, Bain employees have given Democratic candidates and party committees more than $1.2 million. The vast majority of that sum came from senior executives.

    Republican candidates and party committees raised over $480,000 from senior Bain executives during that time period.

    The Obama administration is loaded with Wall Street insiders: how do Dems now go after Romney's associations with the Big Money Boyz?  It's coming right back at them, with the result that both sides are making nonsensical arguments about why their alignment with the Masters of the Universe is good.

    How are voters not going to see that this is little more than the difference between to-MAY-to and to-MAH-to?  And reach the conclusion that it doesn't matter who they vote for, they're getting the same thing: more government of the elite, for the elite, by the elite.

    This is where all that "coming together" and "getting along" and other post-partisan unity garbage has gotten us.  

    Yay?


    Bingo (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:55:49 AM EST
    Obama's cries of "Ooh - Romney is part of big, bad Wall Street!" just rings hollow and makes him look foolish.

    Parent
    No, Obama does not look foolish (5.00 / 0) (#201)
    by Jjc2008 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 06:48:39 AM EST
    What looks foolish is defending wall street and/or Romney.  Sheesh.   The oligarchs have done enough damage. No matter how weak, or not left enough some think Obama is, the fact remains, the right wing nut cases have overtaken the republican party and voting republican or not voting, imo, is simply turning over the chance to get back our democracy.  It is indeed giving in to wannabbe control freaks who think authoritarian power in the hands of a few is a good thing.

    Parent
    And (none / 0) (#34)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:19:22 AM EST
    The WaPo already gave the Obama team "Two Pinochios" on this current Bain ad and "Three Pinocchios" on a memo from January that detailed the same theme.

    If they want to continue to hit this theme, the Dems may want to start telling the truth and not getting slammed with lying.

    Maybe they could look at the looting of the pension funds - THAT might have some meat.

    Parent

    Is this the same WaPo ... (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:24:55 PM EST
    ... that employs Fred Hiatt as its editorial director?

    Nuf ced.

    Parent

    So I guess (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:32:43 PM EST
    When that same column gives Romney three or four Pinocchios, we should also just ignore it?   Or do we then like what they say when we agree with their position?

    Got it.

    Parent

    You can pay attention to it as you wish. (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:01:16 PM EST
    You happen to live back there, and it's your hometown paper. But to be perfectly honest, while I may scan its headlines, I don't much read the Washington Post anymore, particularly when it has to do with staff opinion.

    I've long been of the opinion that Fred Hiatt & Co. are little more than a Beltway house organ, a mouthpiece for BeltwayThink -- or as they like to call it, "conventional wisdom."  And quite frankly, the political disconnect between the Beltway and the rest of the country is chasm-like, the worst I've ever seen in my own half-century lifetime.

    So, really, the Post's take on Romney is also immaterial to me, because the Beltway doesn't speak for me or to me. And while I may be a local Democratic Party official, I certainly don't take my cues from the DNC -- at least, not since Howard Dean was muscled aside.

    I've been involved enough in politics to know that the farther one is from the Beltway, it's often wise to keep one's own counsel and trust one's own instincts. And my instincts long ago told me that Mitt Romney was bad news. I don't need to have Fred Hiatt, E.J. Dionne, Ruth Marcus and Ezra Klein around to tell me that.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Booker (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:27:44 PM EST
    With friends like these.....

    Booker is a real friend (none / 0) (#49)
    by diogenes on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    Friends don't let friends jump off cliffs while being yes-men.  That's something lemmings do.

    Parent
    Scanning comments (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:24:43 PM EST
    I'm thinking that not too many folks are seeing this election like I do.

    I doubt there will be much appreciation for my posting from the TL crowd anymore.

    Hey extreme SCOTUS? No problem. Go git Obama!

    Not sure writing here is going to make a lot of sense for me.

    I'll talk it over with Jeralyn.


    Biased sample. (5.00 / 7) (#74)
    by Dr Molly on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:55:10 PM EST
    Please don't come to this kind of conclusion based on samples like this. Many of us don't participate in these threads when it gets all bash-Obama, and many of us will do all we can to stop Romney despite disappointments.

    I've been missing your posts!

    If you are posting somewhere else, or plan to, would you please let us know how to find you?

    Parent

    Ditto what Dr Molly said. (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Angel on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:58:04 PM EST
    me too (none / 0) (#202)
    by kmblue on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:23:48 AM EST
    if you go, BTD, let us know where to find you.

    Parent
    He might start posting at Boomantribune.com... (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:02:32 PM EST
    (kidding).

    Parent
    although Booman's post about Bookergate (none / 0) (#82)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:08:13 PM EST
    was worth reading in that it did emphasize at the end how egregious Romney's behavior was in plundering Ampad and how it just goes to the heart of Romney's ethics even if he was just trying to maximize profit for the person named Bain (corporations are people my friend!!)

    Parent
    I heard it was Salon (none / 0) (#114)
    by me only on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:36:40 PM EST
    {ducks}

    Parent
    Podium Cafe (none / 0) (#135)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:21:33 PM EST
    BTW, where's the link? Some of us (none / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:04:46 PM EST
    (well moi) are busy soaking up culture in NY.  

    Parent
    Come on down here for some (none / 0) (#172)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:12:42 PM EST
    bass fishing and some pick-up mandolin and guitar music, Oculus. You'll find out quick why Kodaly loved the peasant influence. Oh, and that other Hungarian. What's his name?

    Parent
    Ha! I do enjoy blues, zydeco, bluegrass. Heat, (none / 0) (#174)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:15:51 PM EST
    Humidity.  Mosquitos. Rednecks. Not so much.  

    Parent
    You've been hanging with the wrong (none / 0) (#176)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:36:43 PM EST
    quality of rednecks, without a doubt. Salt of the earth.

    Parent
    Not per MT. (none / 0) (#178)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:02:25 PM EST
    Who ya gonna trust? (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:43:58 PM EST
    ME, a native, or some yankified westerner in the Wiregrass? Even WE don't go to the wiregrass... except to fish and shoot at doves, or driving through to the beach.

    Waiting on MT's reply...;-P

    Parent

    If TL is a blog (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:43:09 PM EST
    that supports the Democratic candidate for president, then maybe Jeralyn could limit commenters to 4 "bash Obama" comments per day, the way she does for commenters who are not inherently pro-defense in legal cases?

    Parent
    Personally, I think this approach gets weird. (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Dr Molly on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:17:45 PM EST
    In some cases, as in the Zimmerman one, or gun rights, for example, I don't find this to be Talk Left but Talk Right.

    These things aren't all black and white, and I personally find the pro-defense-no-matter-what-and-all-else-will-be-deleted approach to be stifling.

    Parent

    Jeralyn says (none / 0) (#142)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:34:41 PM EST
    that her "4 comments" approach has to do with the fact that TL represents a certain point of view, and that when search engines associate TL with overwhelming numbers of comments contradicting the TL perspective, the result is that TL is misrepresented and the TL message is distorted. In other words, I think her policy is about protecting the TL "brand," and I think she has a perfect right to do that. It's not as if commenters can't take their contradictory opinions elsewhere.

    Parent
    Sure, it's totally her right. (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Dr Molly on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:39:37 PM EST
    I just don't see it as consistent with a leftist viewpoint sometimes, which seems ironic. And I think it stifles discussion on that point. So be it.

    Parent
    Agree with Dr Molly (none / 0) (#204)
    by Lora on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:34:01 AM EST
    Overall a site I enjoy and appreciate.  However, I feel constricted at times.  Probably the price to pay for a free and generally civil and interesting venue to express one's views.  The topics are of interest to me.

    I wish at times I was better understood by our hosts but that may be my own lack of clarity in my writing.  I suspect that we all put blinders on occasionally when ideas challenge a worldview we think we know and understand.

    Parent

    Doctoral thesis (none / 0) (#165)
    by Rojas on Tue May 22, 2012 at 07:00:31 PM EST
    ...as in the Zimmerman one, or gun rights, for example, I don't find this to be Talk Left but Talk Right.
    These things aren't all black and white,....

    If you press this little button right here Doc. the light will come on and you can actually view the specimine under the microscope.

    Parent
    This comment doesn't make (5.00 / 5) (#166)
    by Zorba on Tue May 22, 2012 at 07:11:07 PM EST
    any d@mned sense whatsoever.  If you have a problem with Dr Molly's opinion, for pity's sake, say so in a sensible manner, rather than being cryptic.  Or maybe you think you're being very clever.  If so, this fails in that regard, at least IMHO.

    Parent
    DING!!! Give that Girl a Kewpie Doll (5.00 / 3) (#173)
    by NYShooter on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:13:53 PM EST
    What you said, Ms Zorba

    But, to be fair, he's not the only one.

    Note: To everyone posting here: Some of us not in our teens anymore. We read, and understand, plain English. Jingo-Jive Hieroglyphics fly at at an altitude over our heads.

    I watch enough Criminal Minds," and "CSI" to not know what they're talking about. I would hope for a respite here.

    Parent

    Not an enigma (none / 0) (#192)
    by Rojas on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:45:58 PM EST
    On the one hand our good Dr. catagorises the right of self defense and the right to bear arms as a binary issue. It's black and white, left vs right. It's a statement that is false on it's face. By any measure, historic or contemporary, that has never been the case in this country.

    On the other hand our Dr. finds Jeralyn's strong support of the BORs, specifically as it relates to the rights of the accused, as "stifling". The rights of the accused "aren't all black and white" she states. These rights are grey areas....to be decided by the deciders I reckon.

    I don't find her thesis at all consistent with a leftist viewpoint.

    I apologise if you found my reference to the microscope cryptic. I suppose it is. A common mistake is to place a object in the scope and start cranking the focasing dials. Crank it far enough and one will bring into focas lint or debries that are stuck to the lense. If you fail to turn the illimination on this is typically the only view one will have.

    Parent

    Um, no, that's not what I said. (5.00 / 3) (#197)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 23, 2012 at 06:02:41 AM EST
    And, also:  whatever.

    Parent
    I probably will limit (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:18:42 AM EST
    Obama bashing and chattering as the election gets closer. I have no intention of doing anything to jeopardize Obama's chances of re-election.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#104)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:09:07 PM EST
    That's not really my point but it does get to a point.

    I really don't agree with J on her Zimmerman stuff but I respect her wishes.

    I wish folks would be able to discuss the topics of the posts.

    Parent

    Is this not an open thread? (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:22:26 PM EST
    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:27:58 PM EST
    But that's not my point and I think you understand that.

    If an unrelated OT comment had gone "Obama SUX"I would not have given it a second thought.

    But what happened was people took the Booker hook and went "Obama SUX."

    That was incredible to me.


    Parent

    Actually I didn't understand that (none / 0) (#126)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:07:33 PM EST
    But what happened was people took the Booker hook and went "Obama SUX."

    That was incredible to me.

    While it's true that I am not entirely without wits, I can also miss the subtext of other people's communications.  I read you as pi$$ed that the conversation went into Obama SUX at all.  So good to know, I guess.

    Parent
    you only want to write where people (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:56:13 PM EST
    agree with you?  Where is the fun in that? Don't leave.

    Parent
    Yep that's me (none / 0) (#127)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:09:56 PM EST
    Never wanting to discuss anything.

    Missed the point.

    Parent

    nah, (none / 0) (#133)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:18:37 PM EST
    I'm just joshin ya.

    Parent
    Oh please I really hope you don't go (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by ruffian on Tue May 22, 2012 at 07:37:56 PM EST
     I agree there is just nothing new or interesting in Obama bashing. We all know the reasons in our sleep.  I get bored with it too.  The interesting part of the campaign is ahead though - who Romney picks for VP, and how the battleground states play out.  Your ideas would be sorely missed.

    Certainly is your right to do what you want of course, but some of us would miss you a lot.

    Parent

    I've been missing BTD a lot (5.00 / 3) (#187)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:25:32 PM EST
    for months now.

    Parent
    missing BTD (5.00 / 2) (#203)
    by kmblue on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:27:24 AM EST
    amen, brother (or sister)

    also all due respect to Jeralyn, but I'm sick of Zimmerman threads.  I really miss BTD's take on politics.  I mean really really miss.

    Parent

    Don't go (3.50 / 2) (#59)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:26:51 PM EST
    Do you want people who just agree with you to read your posts?  Or those who want to have a rich and vibrant discussion?

    Parent
    That's not it (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:32:22 PM EST
    I just don't like writing where the issues discussed are overlooked in order to bash Obama.

    It's simply not a place right now where I want to discuss the upcoming election.

    Everyone gets to write and believe what they want.

    I just don;t enjoy writing for you folks during this election season.

    I think I have a right to choose not to do it.

    Parent

    Of course you have that right (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:35:16 PM EST
    I enjoy reading you, even if I don't always agree with you.

    I hope you stay and participate in the discussion.

    Parent

    So, what issue, in your post that (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by Anne on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:00:29 PM EST
    mocked Cory Booker, did we overlook?

    The Supreme Court?  War? Secrecy and spying and drone killings and civil liberties and the economy and entitlements and income inequality and the 1% v. the 99%?

    All of the above?  None of the above?  

    I guess you are prepared to argue, if not heartily for Obama, then certainly vociferously against Romney, but the truth or the reality is that many of us don't see a whole lot of daylight anymore between the policies of these two parties or the ultimate trajectory of life here in these United States.  That's what almost four years of deliberate blurring of the partisan divide - which used to exist for the good reason that we don't all believe that middle ground is the best ground - will get you.

    I'm almost 59, BTD, hoping against hope that one day I can retire, that I will finally get my health care under the single-payer system that is Medicare.  Do I have any confidence anymore that Democrats understand and are looking to safeguard my not-so-far-off future or that of my children?  Not when I keep hearing them talk about "fixing" and "strengthening" entitlements, or when I see Dems cozying up to the likes of Paul Ryan and Tom Coburn.  Or when I hear Dick Durbin arguing that Bowles-Simpson is the intelligent, reasonable way to attack the deficit.  Or when honest-to-God Republican talking points come out of the mouths of Democrats.

    Do I want Romney to get a crack at solidifying the conservatives' hold on the Supreme Court?  Of course not.  But do I have any confidence that if Obama gets the chance to nominate to a seat that is currently conservative, he will swing the Court the other way?  No, I don't.  For one thing, he really doesn't seem that enthused about the liberal world view, and for another, this is an administration that needs the conservative point of view to maintain a lot of the policies they've carried over and worsened from the Bush years - why would Obama want to risk all that coming apart under a liberal-leaning Court?

    The choices are terrible, and it makes me madder than hell that it's come to this, where, as someone said recently, it's not about the lesser of two evils, but the more effective of them.  On that score, I think Obama will be more effective - which is horrifying to me.

    You may be right, that writing for a group that includes people like me, who just aren't going to be able to bring any pom-poms to the party, isn't going to be much fun.  Then again, it isn't much fun for people to be told they're blithering idiots for not being able to read between the lines of a short post, or that they're too stupid for you to waste your time with; if your goal is to persuade, it might not be too effective.  For me, well, I already know you don't think much of my opinions, but that's okay - I don't participate here looking for a pat on the head.  

    I'm sorrier than you know that I don't have any enthusiasm for the coming campaign, that it's going to be day after bloody day of listening to more hypocrisy than will be good for my or anyone else's blood pressure, as two parties that are increasingly just two shades of the same color pretend they have something different to offer.  I wish we had a Democratic party that still espoused in actions the kinds of populist talking points they just dust off and wave around every election season so they can keep their jobs, but I don't see it.

    If that means I don't get it, then I guess I don't get it.

    Parent

    The incompetence of surrogates (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:12:01 PM EST
    I think it was pretty clear.

    But as all issues apparently, this turned out to be about how Obama ZUX.

    Sorry, that was a strange leap for me.

    And it leaves me in despair of writing about anything here.

    Parent

    I wouldn't despair just yet... (4.43 / 7) (#113)
    by Anne on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:31:00 PM EST
    One thing you might want to consider is that your absence from the blog, and the resulting dearth of pretty much any substantive political discussion, may have meant that a lot of us reacted the way starving people would have reacted to a meal: so thankful to discuss something other than George Zimmerman that your post just opened the floodgates - and your message got lost.

    So, to your point, who are some people who would be good surrogates for Obama?  One person I'm expecting to see a lot more of is my own state's governor - Martin O'Malley - who I think has his eyes on the national stage, and who I don't think would have gone completely off-message like Booker did.


    Parent

    Agree with you on both (none / 0) (#184)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:04:12 PM EST
    points, us being totally out of shape for these discussions since BTD has had such very minimal presence here for such a long time, and that O'Malley is a very appealing comer.

    Sooooo why hasn't O'Malley been out there as a "surrogate"?

    I'm not a huge Chris Matthews fan, but he was pounding this evening on the whole question of Obama "surrogates" and why there don't seem to be any out there.  It's a darn good question.  Bill Clinton had a very effective and very disciplined surrogate cadre speaking for him in his reelection campaign, and I don't get why Obama's seems nonexistent, or as in Booker, in total shambles.

    Parent

    Hasn't Bill Clinton been out there (none / 0) (#186)
    by nycstray on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:18:02 PM EST
    for him (thought I read something about it)? I've been going TV-less, so I'm missing most of the daily play-by-play (and not following online much). Might be a bit early yet?, but I do think we'll see a more effective surrogate strategy after the 'primaries'. Right now, they seem more focused on raising $$$$$.

    OT: How ya been? Things good?

    Parent

    Eh, OK (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:45:56 PM EST
    Thanks for asking!  And you?

    Me, I'm just happy to not be chilly anymore for a few months, losing the long undies and the thermal socks, and VERY happy to be out planting veg and mucking around in the garden generally.  Spring and early summer in northern places like Vermont is transcendently gorgeous.

    Still waiting for the recession to get its boot off my bank account, though, sigh.  Had to buy a new (secondhand) truck a few weeks ago, and had to borrow from the minimalist retirement $$ to do it.

    BC is a great surrogate, but as a former pres, he doesn't go on your routine TV shows and the like.  And I don't know how enthusiastic the Obama people are about having him out there a lot since he kinda shows up the main man because of the way he can so forcefully and convincingly explain why he believes what he believes without condescension or over-simplification, if you know what I mean.

    But really, they can't just put this surrogate thing off.  Right now is the time when public opinion is being solidified, and they need people out there arguing the case every single day on TV and they're not getting it.

    Parent

    Will (none / 0) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:20:04 PM EST
    you be making your arguments at DK if not here? Frankly I'm kind of interested to see what you think about it all.

    Parent
    I write Sundays at daily kos (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:24:51 PM EST
    Frankly, I have not had time to write much of anywhere of ate. Pretty busy.

    But I was coming back to it, if slowly, and this thread irked me.

    I'll have to figure out the politics a bit before I can opine with any sense about this election yet.

    It feels funny to me right now. I think Obama is in good shape,but I'm not sure.

    I want to look at some voter registration numbers and demographic breakdowns to get a better feel.

    MY one good feeling about this is Romney is not a winning poi. That is, he won't win this election, his political skills are lame, but he seems to have reached the level of "acceptable" alternative if the electorate wants to throw out Obama.

    I'd like to get a better read of what Axelrod and Co are thinking.

    One big worry for me is that they are not hammering on Social Security and Medicare.

    Florida should be solid right now and it is not.

    Parent

    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:45:08 PM EST
    think Axelrod is very good. Just my two cents.

    I would say that Obama is in so-so shape right now. He has some advantages in that the GOP brand is in the trash. His record has not been good but sometimes that does not matter.

    I see Obama as rerunning the Bush 2004 campaign and making it about Romney instead of his record. Will that work? Remains to be seen I guess.

    If the GOP had run Newt or Satorum no doubt that he would be a shoe in for reelection but since that did not happen, it is going to be tick as tick IMO with perhaps the election being decided in the wee hours.

    You have to remember that Obama has advocated cutting Medicare and Social Security in his "grand bargain" so it's going to be hard for him to campaign on that issue. He has made it a lot harder on himself than it has to be because what he has done. The ACA could have waited because there were tons more pressing issues at the time like the housing crisis that needed to be dealt with. If he had done an HOLC or something he would probably be a shoe-in for reelection but he didn't  and that's all water under the bridge now.

    Parent

    Armando, I'd be sorry to see you go. (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:16:20 PM EST
    I moved from Kos to Budhy dharma's to crossed swords and now to here.

    I like the way you make me think. Much better than the challenges of everyday life. And I found myself looking up some contract law the other day, based on something you wrote 2 years ago.  I like that you can be you, and also your legal you here.

    But that "Go Gators!" schtick is getting old...;-)

    Parent

    Why would they hammer on SS and MC? (none / 0) (#169)
    by nycstray on Tue May 22, 2012 at 07:47:22 PM EST
    I  think they will be tinkered with come re-election. Plus, O already went 'there' . . . .

    Parent
    I have to assume this is snark (none / 0) (#185)
    by Rupe on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:04:37 PM EST
    "Those who want to have a rich and vibrant discussion?"  

    Any discussion even touching on Obama ends with several one page essays on how we're all missing the big picture, a few negative comments from our resident contrarians, and at least a few comments that suggest that Obama, a center-right president, is somehow worse than any of the mouth-breathing, psychopathic candidates the Republicans put forth.  As to the last point, when people talk about the long view, what exactly is that?  Pitchforks and armed rebellion?  Good luck with that.  Letting the country burn [faster] in some naive believe that somehow this will make the populous believe that right wing economic policies are the cause of their misery is ludicrous.  And yes, for the record, I would rather stem the bleeding (even if there's still substantial loss) than cut the artery: the world, and the power system structuring it, as I see it is basically f*cked anyway, we may as well try to slow the descent.

    Parent

    it might help to have a respected voice (none / 0) (#60)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:31:06 PM EST
    making the case.

    Parent
    Not based on the comments (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:34:32 PM EST
    I'm reading.

    This Booker story is a case in point frankly.

    Honestly, the takeaway is "Obama is bad" from the Booker story?

    Really? Sheesh.

    I mean if that is what THAT story turns into here, then there's nothing that won't turn into that.

    Look, I can bash Obama as well as anyone, better.

    But how this is possibly a segue to "Obama SUX" is beyond me.

    Parent

    I have one word for you, Ben (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Dadler on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:54:50 PM EST
    Plastics.  


    Parent
    The takeaway (none / 0) (#66)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:36:25 PM EST
    Is that the Democrats are hypocrites who can't successfully argue that Wall Street / Bain / Romney is bad when they themselves are engaging in the exact same things.

    Parent
    From Booker? (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:40:10 PM EST
    That's the takeaway?

    See? That's just ridiculous to me.

    Given the civility rules at Talk Left, I will not be able to express my utter contempt for that type of thinking.

    That story is all about Cory Booker. It's not about anyone else really.

    But "OBAMA SUX!"

    This is no way to have intelligent discussion about an election, about strategies, tactics, or even what it might mean.

    Sorry, I have no interest in this.

    The funny thing is I imagine I'll be writing Obama's campaign is sucking a lot.  

    Parent

    Well, it is difficult to run against private (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Buckeye on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:16:44 PM EST
    equity while depending on their money.  That is the real Booker story IMO.

    IMO, Citizens United case is what is driving this contraversy more than anything.

    Parent

    My takeaway is that the Obama campaign (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by caseyOR on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:29:08 PM EST
    needs to better vet its surrogates and impose message discipline. No making nice when your own people stick the shiv in.

    Having lived through the '08 primaries, we know Obama is capable of being ruthless. He needs to bring out that Obama, minus the misogyny, of course.

    Alleged supporters like Booker do more harm than just about anything that Romney can throw at Obama. And in spewing the stupid false equivalency cr@p, booker and others reinforce that stupid idea in the minds of our already not so bright national press.

    Of course, and yes this is a dig at Obama, the president needs to stop using the false equivalency theme himself. He needs to delineate very sharply the differences between what he stands of and what Romney stands for. Then he must demonize the Romney position.

    And every single person speaking for Obama must demonize the Romney position.

    Parent

    Although with surrogate Biden (none / 0) (#141)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:33:59 PM EST
    we now have a president who supports gay marriage.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#69)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:42:29 PM EST
    From the REACTION to Booker.  

    In some instances, Obama DOES suxk.  But the story is about the REACTION.  You see Booker as a traitor.  Many see Booker as someone who is trying to give the Dems a way out of a losing argument.  Just as former Obama official Steve Rattner did.

    Parent

    The Bain issue (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:46:09 PM EST
    is not about Obama.  It cuts to the heart of the left-wing economic argument.  If you don't believe in that, what argument is there to win?

    Booker is making a right-wing economic argument.  Whether it's a winning argument is what this whole debate is about.

    Parent

    ... and doing it by comparing... (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:50:40 PM EST
    ... Obama's attack to the attacks on Jeremiah Wright?! Holy mogly!
     

    Parent
    Yep - the only way I see Obama in it (none / 0) (#168)
    by ruffian on Tue May 22, 2012 at 07:45:24 PM EST
    is that it sounds like something Obama would have said himself a few years ago as part of his PPUS.

    Parent
    I read what you write both here & (none / 0) (#102)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:08:47 PM EST
    @ DK. There, you have less than a handful of commenters who seem aware your post was topical. For example, you posted re how far off the expected track some of SCOTUS was on  during argument re challenges to ACA. Yet the commenters went nuts re single payer and insurance companies.

    Bottom line, please confine your posts here.  Less OT comments to wade through.  

    Parent

    and fewer duplicate posts! (none / 0) (#107)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:13:56 PM EST
    :)

    Parent
    Smart phone ain't all that smart. (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:51:44 PM EST
    I read what you write both here & (none / 0) (#103)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:08:48 PM EST
    @ DK. There, you have less than a handful of commenters who seem aware your post was topical. For example, you posted re how far off the expected track some of SCOTUS was on  during argument re challenges to ACA. Yet the commenters went nuts re single payer and insurance companies.

    Bottom line, please confine your posts here.  Less OT comments to wade through.  

    Parent

    Contempt (none / 0) (#206)
    by Lora on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:43:16 AM EST
    can be a problem when you are trying to have a discussion.  If contempt is what you feel, then I agree with you about whether you should stay.

    Parent
    Amen (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:36:24 PM EST
    You have a lot of sway here, and Obama needs the votes of the reluctant Dems in November.

    Parent
    the frustrating thing is (5.00 / 0) (#68)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:41:28 PM EST
    Obama isn't the one who needs it.

    Parent
    When others disagree... (none / 0) (#64)
    by christinep on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:35:31 PM EST
    There are some of us who post here who are often outside the crowd or group or consensus opinion.  And:  There just may be a number even more who would appreciate comments that are not shaped to fit the crowd.  If the statements ring true...all the better.  (If it were a popularity contest only around here, I would have been long gone.)

    Parent
    Oh don't be so sure (1.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:04:09 PM EST
    Christine. Some of us just sit back and laugh at those mean popular girls in the cafeteria. Especially when they go into intolerant, opposition-rending Maenad mode..

    Parent
    mean popular girls in the cafeteria, huh? (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by Dr Molly on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:06:36 PM EST
    I think there's enough opinionated wanking around here and the internet to cross all genders and everything else frankly.

    Parent
    I meant mean girls (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:13:24 PM EST
    and maenads in a kind of transpersonal, metaphorical non-gender-specific way..

    A sort of universal, emotion-based, yin phenomenonon, if you will. ;)

    Parent

    nonon.. (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:19:49 PM EST
    thats the ancient Arcadian pronunciation, in case you were wondering..

    Parent
    you are just mad because (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:11:52 PM EST
    you could never get a date with those girls.  They weren't any meaner than you and your friends, sitting around making crude remarks about girls because you were afraid of them.
    I remember HS, there was enough mean to go around and it wasn't limited to one gender.

    Parent
    I HATE the 'girls are meaner' schtick (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:20:59 PM EST
    My HS age daughter gets crap from both sides, just as hateful and mean from the boys as the girls.

    "Mean Girls" was good and funny as movies go, but it also kinda p%$Sed me off.

    Parent

    On the subject of mean girls in film, ... (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 05:53:22 PM EST
    ... I prefer the movie Heathers. It's the penultimate vengeful nerd's black comedy.

    On the subject of mean girls vs. mean boys, well, I seem to remember that as high school boys, we could be pretty vicious and scathing. That recent story in the Washington Post about Romney's Cranbrook days really hit home with me, because I saw a lot of bullying occurring on campus while parents, teachers, administrators and most of us students preferred to look the other way.

    And more often than not, I found that other than a few exceptions, the guys who were the real jerks in high school tended to still be jerks once they transitioned into adulthood.

    Parent

    I don't know if that character (none / 0) (#158)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 05:59:30 PM EST
    was a nerd..Almost more like a (and I hate to say it) nihilistic proto-Columbine type..Who, btw, "got the girl"..at least for awhile..

    Parent
    yeah because guys (none / 0) (#157)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 05:55:27 PM EST
    are so friggin' dumb all they care about is what she looks like and what clique she belongs to. Which means theres hope for you yet.

    I was talking about a phenomenon I've observed HERE: a sort of piranha-like group dynamic based in some half-baked identity politics and need for yet another post-08 catharsis..  

    Parent

    yup (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:18:18 PM EST
    just as I said, feeling threatened and so you must act out....just like HS.

    Parent
    That's because you haven't ... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:27:48 PM EST
    ... read my comments yet, given that there's a six-hour time difference between Honolulu and New York, and it's only 9:30 a.m. here. When I first arise in the morning, your day is already half-done.

    Parent
    Talk about bad surrogates.... (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:12:41 PM EST
    "If Mitt Romney even thinks of asking Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels to be his running mate, he'd better think twice because Daniels issued some fightin' words:

    "If I thought that call was coming, I would disconnect the phone.""

    He didn't say that because (none / 0) (#189)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:31:38 PM EST
    he's unhappy with Romney, he said it for the same reasons, I believe mostly family and/or skeletons of some kind in the closet, he decided not to run for pres.

    Parent
    Booker had his own reality show (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Dadler on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:45:50 PM EST
    Brick City.  Watched it, watched him chum it up with Chris Christie (necessary to a degree, but not the one he warmed up to), watched him be a nice cheerleader, but when it came to the economic substance, sigh, he was a big whiff.  So I came away it with an impression of him that makes this episode, while inexcusably dim-witted, unsurprising.

    Once again, it's the utter lack of imagination that boggles me.  We make the money, we can do anything with it we want as a nation.  A flourishing fiat economy, when all the marketing bullsh*t is stripped away, boils down to the Golden Rule.

    We throw people out of their jobs, out of their homes, we destroy their lives, in order to save money, and we do it every day. Rarely do we treat money so "shabbily" in order to save people.

    I think the problem (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by NYShooter on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:24:39 PM EST
     is that Obama doesn't "get" what many of us do. And that is that the Republican Party is the mortal enemy of both him, and, by extension, the American people. There is no partisanship, and no hope for partisanship. Instead of trying to work with them he should be protecting us from them.

    It would be nice to have it but Obama doesn't "get" what the republicans do, you don't need it.

    Just look at the gains the r's have made, whether in power, or out.

    It really is, "us vs them." That's a battle cry, and that's a winning platform.

    I think (hope) he's gotten it lately... (none / 0) (#138)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:27:17 PM EST
    AZ's Sec. of State backs down. (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 06:07:42 PM EST
    After incurring a lot of public ridicule at the hands of Hawaii officials, Sec. of State Ken Bennett has backed off his threat to keep President Obama off the Arizona ballot this November, and has apologized to state residents for embarrassing them with his birther antics.

    And then there's Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who doesn't seem to know the meaning of the word "embarrassed,", does he? His recently-dispatched insane clown posse showed up at our Dept. of Health building this morning, flashing their badges and demanding answers, until chased off under threat of arrest by Hawaii state deputies.

    Did the taxpayers of Arizona pay for (none / 0) (#198)
    by ruffian on Wed May 23, 2012 at 06:03:05 AM EST
    the clown posse's excursion? I assume so. How ridiculous.

    Parent
    Coming late to this thread (5.00 / 4) (#196)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:24:11 AM EST
    Let me just say that Talkleft supports Obama for re-election.

    Criticism of his individual policies is one thing. Advocating against voting for him is another. I will limit those who do so as chatterers under our rules.

    Commenters come and go. The principles of this site don't change. And commenters won't turn the site into an anti-Obama site. They will be limited in their comments and have to find someplace else to vent.

     

    I was watching that Sunday morning (none / 0) (#3)
    by Buckeye on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:44:22 AM EST
    and had to back up the DVR to the part where they showed his title and party.  I thought it said he was a democrat but it sure did not sound like it.  When it got back to his title and I saw a "D" after his mayor title, I was shocked.  He not only called Obama's entire campaign premise against Romney incorrect but nauseating.

    Yes, and Booker's nausea (none / 0) (#27)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:43:01 AM EST
    was equally induced by questioning of Romney's job creator experiences at Bain and the Joe Ricketts' proposal tying President Obama to Reverend Wright's "black liberation theology" along with a a plan to hire "an extremely literate African-American" to shield the PAC ad from charges of race-baiting.  That "bipartisanship" and the sensible centrist stuff does make my stomach a little queasy, too.

    Parent
    The only problem is (none / 0) (#37)
    by Buckeye on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:05:53 PM EST
    Ricketts rejected the proposal and Romney repudiated it.  Not a single Wright ad has been run.  Obama has been running the Bain adds all over the country.

    Parent
    Not relevant to my comment (none / 0) (#40)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:22:20 PM EST
    on Booker's false equivalency.

    Parent
    On the more positive, music front.. (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:27:32 PM EST
    I've played for thirty years, and I've never heard anyone play the harmonica the way Stevie Wonder did last night. The man took my breath away, as they say..

    And on Alfie, my favorite Burt Bachrach song..

    Parent

    David Brooks (none / 0) (#73)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:53:30 PM EST
    Takes up the Bain/Romney mantle.

    The only thing he writes that I agree with:

    "Now we are apparently going to have a presidential election about whether this reform movement was a good thing."

    I agree with this (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:16:38 PM EST
    In a country that desperately wants change, I have no idea why a party would not compete to be the party of change and transformation. For a candidate like Obama, who successfully ran an unconventional campaign that embodied and promised change, I have no idea why he would want to run a campaign this time that regurgitates the exact same ads and repeats the exact same arguments as so many Democratic campaigns from the ancient past.


    Parent
    I'm not the least bit surprised (3.50 / 2) (#90)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:23:20 PM EST
    that you agree with David Brooks on what the problems with Democrats are.

    If you think Bain/private equity is the kind of change and transformation this country needs, there is a candidate in this election for you.  I happen to disagree.

    The only question I have is why the issue with Obama's ties to wall street?  If wall street is the kind of change we need, you should be happy when that's the change we've been getting.

    Parent

    Like it or not, New York is ... (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:41:38 PM EST
    ... by far and away the financial capital of the country, even more so than it was 30 or 40 years ago. As such, what happens on Wall Street has significant economic consequences, hence the significant effort to stabilize the financial markets in the aftermath of the 2008 collapse.

    We're certainly not going to wean ourselves from them overnight, but the trajectory desperately needs to be altered to deter the further intensive concentration of capital in one primary locale along the eastern seaboard, and prevent the further entrenchment of a self-serving and self-enriching oligarchy. The large financial institutions need to be broken up, and the Glass-Steagall Act needs to be resurrected in its 21st century form. With some political pressure, that can happen with a second Obama term, provided we also get a Congress willing to cooperate.

    Conversely, the type of reform we need sure ain't gonna happen in a Romney administration and a GOP-controlled Congress. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    To wit, I've lived out here long enough to become intimately familiar with Hawaii's well-documented, decades-long experience under the thumb of an entrenched white-male corporate / military oligarchy during its territorial days in the first half of the 20th century -- and trust me, it's not a pretty story.

    In many instances, resistance to oligarchical rule led to tragic and sometimes bloody labor situations, such as the infamous incidents in Hilo and Hanapepe (Kauai), in which non-white workers attempting to walk off the job were fired upon by white police and troops, who killed several score of them. It ultimately culminated in the imposition of martial law during the Second World War, and its continuance long after the immediate threat of a Japanese military invasion had subsided.

    (Just because you weren't taught any of that in school during history class, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.)

    Not surprisingly, memories of the abusive quasi-colonial experience that non-wealthy islanders of color endured under the heavy-handed rule of a minority white oligarchy are still somewhat raw, even today. They are the primary reason why Republicans have never comprised more than one-third of the legislature at any time since statehood was finally achieved under Democratic leadership in 1959.

    Native Hawaiians are a proud people whose cultural heritage rests upon the oral traditions that have been passed down over the generations through the Kumulipo and other historical chants, such as Kaumana Na Pua ("Famous are the Flowers"), which was composed in 1895 and serves to remind the maka'ainana of exactly what happened to their nation at the hands of rich white people. "Hilahila 'ole keia po'e haole," they would learn to say -- "White people are shameless."

    Ergo, non-white people out here tend to have a very long political memory -- and that's why Obama polls at 72% in his home state.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Interesting. (none / 0) (#188)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:28:46 PM EST
    Thanks for the brief history lesson.

    And yet, parts of Hawaii are loaded with retired (presumably mostly white) very conservative U.S. military guys, no?

    Parent

    That again is amazing spin (none / 0) (#99)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:02:47 PM EST
    I agree with the COMMENT I quoted - just as you agreed with another comment.

    Of course, I could just as easily say that "you agree with David Brooks."

    Parent

    David Brooks (none / 0) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:46:37 PM EST
    is an idiot. Why on earth are you quoting anything that he has to say?

    Parent
    Are you asking me? (none / 0) (#98)
    by jbindc on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:00:54 PM EST
    Responding to CST's agreement of Brooks' statement.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:09:19 PM EST
    I thought you were using what David Brooks said to bolster your argument.

    Parent
    exactly (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by CST on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:14:26 PM EST
    It's not THAT you quoted, it's what you quoted.  And that's what I was responding to, the section you quoted cuts to the heart of his argument.  What I quoted was an anecdote about the state of the election.

    I'm not saying you agree with him because you quoted something he happened to say.  I'm saying you agree with him because you quoted the crux of his argument, and Romney's argument, and every argument you've made on this thread regarding this issue.  Which I happen to disagree with.

    This is mostly to jb not Ga6thDem.  I agree with Ga6thDem.

    Parent

    Booker was expressing an honest opinion ! (none / 0) (#76)
    by samsguy18 on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:58:43 PM EST
    I watched MTP...and quite frankly it was refreshing ...Obama  and his "surrogates" spend far too much time on word semantics and  spin. Obama has not addressed the problems crippling this country...for the past year he's been in campaign mode. The burden of this economic climate is weighing on the average  American....it is not getting better ! Whenever I hear of Obama at another star studded fund raiser it makes my blood boil. He has been a huge disappointment !

    Retire from politics (5.00 / 0) (#100)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:03:05 PM EST
    LOL! (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by Zorba on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:56:33 PM EST
    I can't think of any politician who has not been a disappointment, in one way or another.  They're politicians- they do what they do.

    Look, I'm an ancient leftie, DFH, old-fashioned liberal/populist.  I haven't been very happy with the Democratic Party for years and years.  But I'm old enough and cynical enough to realize that I'm never going to get what I want- I'm way too far out of the mainstream.  I continue to vote, and support causes that I believe in, and that's about all I can do.  I have also been around long enough to realize that things go in cycles.  And to also realize that politicians have feet of clay, just as most humans do.  Nobody can be all things to all people.  Am I disappointed in Obama?  Sure, but not nearly as much as some people, because I have been following his career since he was an Illinois state senator.  I never did expect him to be the messiah.  But he is a consummate politician.  And I don't mean this in a pejorative sense- he is what he is.

    Well, I'm rambling, but I do want to urge you to continue to post your thoughts on politics.  You're a very smart guy, and I always enjoy reading you, even when I don't always agree with you.

    Parent

    Aww, do I have to? (none / 0) (#117)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:44:13 PM EST
    Can't I at least wait until after the State Democratic Convention this weekend -- please?

    ;-)


    Parent

    BTD (none / 0) (#88)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:16:54 PM EST
    I for one would love to hear what you think about this election cycle.

    And as far as Booker, the story seems to me to be another surrogate who isn't a good surrogate. So what else is new there?

    As far as right wing economic issues, Obama has pretty much made that argument himself a few times.

    Interesting Parallel However (none / 0) (#128)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:09:59 PM EST
    All the "I just don't feel enthusiastic," or "I don't see any difference," or "don't begrudge me MY vote" comments actually go hand in hand w/the point about surrogates who don't toe the line.  

    That is, if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all.

    No one begrudges you your vote or dissatisfaction, just do it quietly.  No need to put the kibosh on the election for those of us looking at the short term big picture.

    You know what? (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:35:13 PM EST
    I would be happy to never again mention how disappointed I am with the party that I gave years of my life to.  I would love to never again mention that the policies being promoted by this "Democratic" President weren't in any Party platform I ever worked on -- but are, in fact, in opposition to many of them.  

    And I will stop voicing my dissatisfaction when those of you looking at the short term big picture stopping telling me how "progressives" have no other "reasonable" option.  

    So.  No one begrudges you your vote willingness to settle, just do it quietly.  No need to put the kibosh on the election for those of us taking the long view and seeing a bigger picture.

    Parent

    And, btw, haven't you noticed (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:36:25 PM EST
    that if you keep your mouth shut when you don't have anything good to say that nothing ever changes?

    Parent
    I don't disagree w/any of this (none / 0) (#152)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 22, 2012 at 04:59:35 PM EST
    and believe me, I'm right there with you on the need for deep systemic change in the way we do things, not just here, but worldwide (I firmly believe we can't have change just here.) Unfortunately, the rest of nation isn't there with us yet - no matter how great the agenda, or speech given.  It is for that reason alone that I encourage you to participate and help us in the tug of war so we can keep pulling to our side.  We will never get there if people check out.  You're NOT keeping your mouth shut.  You may not be saying exactly what you want, but you ARE being heard.

    Parent
    I'm not checking out (none / 0) (#154)
    by sj on Tue May 22, 2012 at 05:15:03 PM EST
    I'm taking the long view.  I'm not on your side and I won't participate with your side.  But if it makes you feel any better I could never vote for a Republican either.
    I'm right there with you on the need for deep systemic change in the way we do things, not just here, but worldwide
    The only way to reach world wide is one step at a time.  The tipping point will never be reached if everyone is working so hard to counterbalance it.

    Parent
    Shorter version (none / 0) (#199)
    by jbindc on Wed May 23, 2012 at 06:39:54 AM EST
    paraphrasing Clayton Williams -"If it's inevitable, just lie back and enjoy it."

    Parent
    If you're a man (none / 0) (#205)
    by kmblue on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:40:36 AM EST
    you are welcome to do that.  Otherwise, f*** off.

    Parent
    Poor kid. Dressed in blackface for MLK ... (none / 0) (#160)
    by magster on Tue May 22, 2012 at 06:07:37 PM EST
    ... presentation got in trouble at school, except he was sincere and wanted to look like MLK.

    My daughter (6th grade,I think) (none / 0) (#171)
    by oculus on Tue May 22, 2012 at 09:12:23 PM EST
    was called out by her teacher for showing up in class in a rented Santa costume and giving each classmate a gift. Why?  Not based on religion. Kind of a, if everyone can't aford to do this, you should not.  

    Parent
    "Called out" or (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 22, 2012 at 11:47:46 PM EST
    spoken to privately?

    If the former, I'd be inclined to smack the teacher.  If the latter, I'm kinda on the teacher's side with that.


    Parent

    I don't know. Thought (none / 0) (#194)
    by oculus on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:31:50 AM EST
    the teacher felt one- upped.  

    Parent