Round 2 George Zimmerman Discovery

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 10:17:00 AM EST
Tags: George Zimmerman (all tags)

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Update: Mark O'Mara has asked for 30 days to review the jail calls not relied on by the state to revoke bond. Thus of the 151 calls, only the six calls referred to at the bond revocation hearing and in the state's motion will be released Monday.

Also, Khaled Akkawi, owner of Straight-Shoot Gun Shops, confirmed to the media Zimmerman purchased his gun from one of their stores and has used the firing range at their Casselberry store. He said the FBI visited the stores and asked employees whether Zimmerman had displayed any racial animus. Akkawi said his employees told him, "Nothing could be further from the truth."

Keep in mind, as I wrote below, Akkawi and the others listed in his section of the state's disclosure are unlikely to be called as witnesses. They are listed as "Category C" witnesses, which under Florida's discovery rules, applies to: bq.

All witnesses who performed only ministerial functions or whom the prosecutor does not intend to call at trial and whose involvement with and knowledge of the case is fully set out in a police report or other statement furnished to the defense;

[More...]

The state has filed this list of discovery it provided today to Mark O'Mara, attorney for George Zimmerman. Mark O'Mara says it won't be publicly released until he's had 30 days to review it.

There are several new names, but many won't be witnesses. Still, they offer a clue as to who the state consulted during the investigation.

The persons in Category C will not be witnesses. They include:

All witnesses who performed only ministerial functions or whom the prosecutor does not intend to call at trial and whose involvement with and knowledge of the case is fully set out in a police report or other statement furnished to the defense;

One is Khaled Akkawi, the owner of the chain Straight-Shoot Gun Shops, which is just about the largest retail gun store in the southeast, with several stores in Central Florida. They hold the rank of 2011 "Top NRA Recruiter of The Year - Dealer" from the National Rifle Association (NRA). They also offer weapons training including a concealed weapons course. Also from the stores: Larry Anderson, Straight-Shoot's lead manager of the Apopka store and Sterling Frazier and Jeff Perillo of the Casselberry stores.

Also in Category C is Brian Hackett. His address lists to Gander Mountain, which also offers weapons training; James Brantley, owner of Brantly & Associates Inc, a security guard company in Orlando and an employee; John Wright, a private investigator in Sanford; Kent Taylor, of the Leland Management corporate office in Orlando. Leland is a community association management company that offers support to Florida Homeowners and Condominium Associations.

Update: The 151 jail calls will be available Monday according to an e-mail I just received from the state's attorneys office.

That's all I have time for now.

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Round 2 George Zimmerman Discovery | 59 comments (59 topical)

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To the commenters who opine the (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by oculus on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 09:06:32 PM EST

prosecution is over-disclosing, please remember the US Supreme Court requires the prosecutor to err on the side of disclosure. Names and identifying info may be redacted if the court permits it.

Akkawi's Ticket to the C List (5.00 / 1) (#16)
by Cylinder on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 09:13:58 PM EST

"Didn't the guy have a Sunday school in his house for minority kids?"

Khaled Akkawi to Feds when asked about Zimmerman's racial veiws

: Yep lol (none / 0) (#18)
by Slayersrezo on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 09:26:41 PM EST

So sadly true.
When you aren't interested in justice but in politics - as Corey is - you tend not to admit anything that could derail your narrative.

How much money has been spent so far (5.00 / 2) (#20)
by Redbrow on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 10:11:59 PM EST

to prosecute Zimmerman? The amount must be staggering.

The FBI dispatched at least 10 special agents to Central Florida...11 investigators from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement also joined the probe...

At least we have our priorities straight (5.00 / 0) (#39)
by NYShooter on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 04:57:32 PM EST

"The FBI dispatched at least 10 special agents..." for a second degree murder case

And they dispatched 55 agents for a campaign contribution (really a "smear" Edwards) case.


I don't care what they put on the Affidavit (none / 0) (#45)
by Slayersrezo on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 11:46:35 PM EST

This is NOT a second-degree murder case.


: ookay, Right (none / 0) (#46)
by NYShooter on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 02:28:27 AM EST

It was a severity level 1 banana daiquiri

Category A Witnesses (5.00 / 1) (#47)
by dontknowme on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 10:56:42 AM EST

The discovery list adds 6 new name-redacted civilian witnesses in category A, thus expected to be called at trial. W26 was interviewed by State Attorney investigator Lee. W23, W27 and W28 were interviewed by different FBI agents. W24 and W25 are not listed in either the FBI interviews or the FDLE interviews, but I'm guessing they are Frank Taaffe and Joe Oliver, both of whom were interviewed by the FBI, and mistakenly had their names listed there rather than their witness ID numbers. As private citizens, they should have these numerical identifiers.

Of course, if anyone who has gone on TV will be identified by name, then Taffe and Oliver will join John (W6) Mary (W5) Selma (W16) and the Teacher (W18) in the category of names-not-numbers.

The question is, who are W23, W26, W27 and W28 and what sort of testimony might they offer? Are these character witnesses to GZ's past, witnesses to events on the evening of the 26th that the State missed somehow, or witnesses to GZ's behavior in the days after the shooting?

It's also interesting to note that the FBI only re-interviewed two of the civilian witnesses listed in the previous discovery: W21 (the president of the homeowners association at The Retreat), and W11 (the woman who made the 911 call with the audible screams and gunshot in the background). Why those two and not any of the others? I have no clue.

Category C Witnesses (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by dontknowme on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 11:10:13 AM EST

If I understand Jeralynn's point correctly, witnesses interviewed by LEO are placed in this category if the State does not expect to call them at trial.

However, they would have a responsibility to disclose their findings to the defense, because the defense might view their value differently.

For example, Mark O'Mara may find Mr. Akkawi and/or Mr. Hackett to be effective character witnesses for GZ, or he may find something in John Wright's statement that would undermine the Teacher's credibility (Wright being the person who took the Teacher's 13 p. written statement).

The prosecution is required to err on the side of over-disclosure, because having the State decide what is and isn't relevant does not make for fair trials, and prosecutors have a history of failing to disclose evidence that turned out to be exculpatory. If that produces more work for the defense sifting through everything, well you can't have it both ways.

If I was GZ, I'd want access to everything the investigation dug up and the opportunity to comb through it with my own set of filters. Sure it will take time, but less than 20 years.

30 days (none / 0) (#1)
by cboldt on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 02:06:06 PM EST

In another thread, I posted a remark wondering about that 30 day allowance, then listened to the hearing and did some sort of transcription of Lester's June 1 remarks. IMO, Lester's written order of June 12 is the authority, inasmuch as it clarifies or differs from his oral pronouncement on June 1. Just noting that as background.

Adding to that background, it's my impression that O'Mara has an interest in scouring statements made by Zimmerman, for "confession" and anything else he might be able to suppress at trial; and is entitled to a delay on that material. I don't see O'Mara having any interest or grounds to delay, e.g. photos of the crime scene or Martin autopsy results.

So, it comes as a surprise that the first items out will be Zimmerman conversations, and those will be out long before 30 days elapse.

Category c (none / 0) (#4)
by Kelwood on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 03:11:00 PM EST

Thank you for the category c link. Florida news sites are making it seem like they will actually be called as witnesses. One site already has an interview with the gun shop owner.

It appears they are trying to waste (none / 0) (#8)
by Redbrow on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 05:56:29 PM EST

O'Mara's time and resources by sending him on a fishing expedition.

Other witnesses who were named included Akkawi's employees, two people from a tactical firearms facility in Central Florida, a private investigator and a range master at another gun club.
"I don't know where you are getting this from," said former Seminole County Sheriff's Deputy Scott McLeod, range master at the Chuluota Sportsmen's Club who was listed as a witness in the case. "I am telling you: Nobody has ever come to interview me."

Read more here

From GZLegalcase (none / 0) (#9)
by Raoul on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 06:00:00 PM EST

"On Monday, we will be filing a motion to seek a clarification from the Court about the order regarding Mr. Zimmerman's phone conversations while in jail. Our motion will contend that the majority of the phone calls are personal and irrelevant to the charges against Mr. Zimmerman or issues surrounding the next bond hearing. Moreover, the public release of these phone calls could jeopardize the privacy of friends and family of Mr. Zimmerman who are unrelated to the case. We will not be objecting to the release of phone calls that include conversations relevant to the the bond hearing or the charges Mr. Zimmerman faces."

these sunshine laws are absurd (none / 0) (#12)
by labrat on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 06:47:12 PM EST

Remind me never to commit a crime in Florida.

I can't believe they allow discovery to be released to the public before a trial.

The law is okay (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by cboldt on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 07:01:36 PM EST

The problem here is the players. The state gathered a bunch of material that is tangential to the investigation(s) (both George and Shellie's), and is calling all of it discovery.

Lester cut off the state on its reference to Zimmerman's cell phone records. He found that those records were irrelevant. "The Court has not been provided basis to find that the Defendant's phone calls are relevant or should even be considered evidence." He went on to allow production of calls made to SPD, but all other parts of Zimmerman's cell phone record were ruled exempt from disclosure.

Lester's order also covers the calls from the jail, ordering the state it could limit its transcription activity to that already done (to support the state's case against Shellie), and that it could submit any Zimmerman confessions to the Court, in camera.

I think the state is pulling a sneaky one by getting all of Zimmerman's jail calls into public. It aims to inform the mob of who is a friend of Zimmerman. The way I see it, the state is acting the part of an extension to the Sharpton/Crump agitating crew.

The rationale Lester used to limit cell phone records applies to the jailhouse calls, too. "The persons contacted by the Defendant in the days surrounding the incident should not be connected to the case merely because their telephone numbers appear on the Defendant's [cell phone] bill." Likewise, persons contacted by jailhouse phone should not be connected to the case, unless the contents of the phone call have some bearing on getting the truth about the events of February 26th.


I have a question. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
by DebFrmHell on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 10:44:36 AM EST

If George Zimmerman's cell records are out, does that include the text that the Prosecution was so anxious to get in? The one that referenced the "Reverend?" ((I am assuming that to be Sharpton moreso than Jackson.))

It appears that the FBI agents were looking for incidences of racist remarks and came up bone dry. Akkawai said as such. He also said "It couldn't be further from the truth."


The order doesn't say (none / 0) (#36)
by cboldt on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 11:21:34 AM EST

-- If George Zimmerman's cell records are out, does that include the text that the Prosecution was so anxious to get in? --

Judge Lester's order is silent on that, unless the contents of text messages is in the scope of "cell phone records." The order exempts disclosing Zimmerman's cell phone records except the parts that are calls to SPD. The rationale for exemption is that his circle of calls shouldn't be connected to the case (and thereby made public), just because their telephone numbers appear on Zimmerman's phone bill.


Other Source? (none / 0) (#68)
by nomatter0nevermind on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 05:19:09 PM EST

Judge Lester's order is silent on that, unless the contents of text messages is in the scope of "cell phone records."

What would be the source of the text messages, other than the phone records?


: Come To Think (none / 0) (#69)
by nomatter0nevermind on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 05:29:01 PM EST

At the bond hearing Zimmerman said he 'agreed to turn over that phone to the police so they could make a copy of what was in there'. Maybe the information taken directly from the phone isn't included under 'phone records'.
But if that information was being treated separately, I think it would be mentioned in the order.

: What are phone records? (none / 0) (#71)
by cboldt on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 06:09:12 PM EST

Given that Lester says Zimmerman's circle of friends phone numbers ought not be public, I pictured that a "phone record" is analogous to a phone bill. Lester didn't say anything about the contents of his friends text messages, but it stands to reason if he doesn't see the phone number information as relevant in any way shape of form, he likely wouldn't see the contents of text messages as relevant either. Lester did allow that the state was free to produce any confessions it found during it's surveillance, to the court, in camera.
Looking around for a clinical definition of "phone records," ran into Bent v. State, which has to do with releasing jailhouse recorded calls. In Bent, the press was seeking release, unlike Zimmerman, where the state wanted to release.

Inmates receive no notice that calls may be disclosed to the general public. The expectation that a deputy or state attorney may listen to a call is very different from an expectation that anyone and everyone could listen to the calls. Sensitive or embarrassing information, or information that would otherwise be confidential, like financial information of the inmate or the person called, could be disclosed to the public. Treating the recordings as public records allows anyone to request the recorded calls.

please keep your comments to (none / 0) (#37)
by Jeralyn on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 01:07:03 PM EST

the discovery.

Your view of guns and gun laws or politics is not the topic here.

Jharp, remember you have been limited to four comments a day in Zimmerman threads and they must follow our other commenting rules.

O'Mara's motion (none / 0) (#38)
by friendofinnocence on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 01:14:35 PM EST

What are the chances of O'Mara's motion being considered before the 151 phone calls are released?

: Motion is likely mooted (none / 0) (#42)
by cboldt on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 08:10:46 PM EST

Evidence given to defense attorney in Trayvon Martin case; jailhouse recordings to be released - WaPo - AP - June 15, 2012

Prosecutors also said Friday they plan to release 151 calls George Zimmerman made from jail, early next week, but then revised that to only six phone calls after Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara informed them that he would file a motion objecting to the release of most of the calls.

total station diagram (none / 0) (#40)
by willisnewton on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 07:30:16 PM EST

This is a GPS assisted survey device, the "total station" and it's going to be interesting for me personally to compare the results they plot against my one subjective photo analysis and defacto crime scene map I've been working on here:

http://tinyurl.com/btrwasd

Since April I've been harping on my opinion of how the location of the body seems problematical for GZ's likely tale of "returning to(wards) his vehicle" when the altercation began with, what his father describes as a sucker punch to the ground on the initial spot of the two meeting.

Evidence map (none / 0) (#43)
by MJW on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 10:51:03 PM EST

Though the picture you have in the upper-left corner showing the distance from the key chain to the shell casing has the casing too far from the sidewalk and too far from the T, the picture you label "TM.GZ.evidence.map" seems to me to be very reasonable. The photo you label "eastfromB" is, I believe, a picture of the location where the the large flashlight, cellphone, and shell casing were found, and almost certainly where the struggle took place. There's a spot of green grass surrounded by yellowish grass visible in the picture, centered horizontally in about the middle of the photo, and closer to the sidewalk than is the utility cover. The same spot is also visible in the photo of evidence markers 5, 6, and 7, and the shell arrow. It it's a good reference point to visualize the evidence locations.

One thing to keep in mind, besides the fact that we don't yet know exactly what Zimmerman told the police, is that Zimmerman knew the location where he shot Martin. Perhaps he told a story that was inconsistent with what he knew and what he knew the police knew, but at least to the original investigators, that wasn't obvious.


thanks i gave that one a shot (none / 0) (#51)
by willisnewton on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 12:45:00 PM EST

another totally subjective -only my opinion photo is here

http://tinyurl.com/84287nq

I don't think grass stains are very good measures of much, but there are plenty of other things to try to compare with - but from the 567 pic to the "west from B" the grass stains are the only thing in both.

I feel a lot less sure about this one than I do some others. The tan bag and the lighted keychain flashlight are easy to place well. The body, shell casing and black flashlight are easy enough to place in a general way - they are definitely in John's back yard, in a tight triangle of less than ten feet each leg. Getting more exact that that is really just guesswork, and pointless anyway. The 567 photo lacks any good context and there are no other shots of the 567 markers from a distance yet in circulation. One guess is as good as the next from 4-8 feet apart in my opinion.

What's important is that the "debris field" is scattered over a distance farther than supine figures are likely to have traveled yes, IMHO. This proves little in court, yet, but it's worth noting when we finally get to read GZ's accounts.

We will know more soon, however.

I agree that Z told some story to investigators at the walk thru - but we don't know what he told investigators the first night, prior ot the walk thru and how it agrees or differs with what he told after and during the walk thru. In other words, we don't know much of anything really.

I disagree that inconsistencies may not have been obvious to the SPD investigation - Serino seems to have had obvious suspicions about GZ's credibility, and communicated them to at least one witness if she is to be believed, in my opinion. He gave a JOINT interview with Bill Lee, his boss and toed the party line but that's not proof of much besides the fact that he wants to keep his job. I think he had his suspicions and that he couldn't find an eye witness to the start of the fight, so he kept digging. Keep in mind he didn't now about Dee Dee from the start, either. But he made sure to establish with W2 the distance of the alleged foot chase participants she initially claims she caught a glimpse of. In my opinion she's backed off of that story because she doesn't want to be a star witness - maybe she really is unsure of what she saw or didn't see - or maybe she doesn't want the job of star witness for the prosecution. (She can't take back what she said, she can only amend her later statements, just like John.)

But like others, and the evidence map IMHO, she seems to describe an altercation that moved in some fashion while the surrogate (dad) tells a story that seems more stationary, and these differences are what I'm interested in finding out more about.


distance traveled (none / 0) (#66)
by Philly on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 04:59:06 PM EST

What's important is that the "debris field" is scattered over a distance farther than supine figures are likely to have traveled yes, IMHO.

As a former NHB fighter, that distance doesn't seem unusual, given my understanding of the events. We'll see what was actually asserted when the new discovery is published, but it seems likely that the struggle occurred in three stages.

GZ knocked down by a punch, near the top of the T
GZ scuttling away, perhaps even getting partially back to his feet, while TZ closed in.
TZ finally on top of GZ attempting to establish and maintain control, with GZ struggling (unsuccessfully) to escape.

Particularly given the wet grass, quite a bit of distance could have been traveled in either (2) or (3). When one is straddled, the natural reaction is to bridge, pushing against the ground with one's feet, to try and dislodge the person on top.


Exactly (none / 0) (#73)
by Redbrow on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 10:19:48 PM EST

as described by Witness #6 "John" when he stated "they moved to the sidewalk", "they wrestled to that point" in a matter of seconds while he observed the fight. This could have been repeated many times over the course of the fight before he started watching.

You can hear the part of the interview focused on moving to the sidewalk starting at about 26:14 of this video.


: the fight moved or it didn't. What did GZ say? (none / 0) (#81)
by willisnewton on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 02:20:35 PM EST

I think it moved, and the closest witnesses to the T thinks it moved, too in my opinion of what he is describing.
If it did move, then how, why, and who was in the lead and who was behind seems immaterial in this respect: GZ's own father, who was present at the videotaped walk thru according to the NYT tells a version where the fight seems not to move, and there is no foot chase, or scuttling crab walk chase, or cowboy riding an inchworm, or rolling around motion that moved from up near the T to down in John's backyard. His story is that GZ was knocked to the ground by the one and only standing blow at the place where they initially met, and that Trayvon immediately got on top of him and started beating him, and the spot where this happens he describes as on GZ's path to(wards) his vehicle. He's quite specific and detailed about all this.
If GZ leaves out any details about movement in his accounts to police, what is he leaving out? Nothing if the fight didn't move.
But if a jury believes it did move, after hearing the witnesses and
seeing the scattered evidence and understanding the body was found in John's back yard, what will they think of an account where the fight doesn't move?
IMO they are going to come to a conclusion that GZ is leaving out some means that the fight moved that he doesn't care to admit to, or recall. Yes, there are innocent means for the fight to move from A to B. I can think of several myself.
Did George? Or, like his father, did he leave out that part?
We don't know, but what we do know it that GZ's surrogates seem to want to include the bit about "returning to his vehicle" in their accounts. There is also the quite specific "behind and to the left" part, that tends to make me think that Robert Zimmerman knows what his son was telling the police. All of that is a lot more suggestive of a fight that begins near the T than it is of a fight that begins in John's back yard.

Zims says he lost sight of TM (none / 0) (#44)
by fredquick21 on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 11:20:27 PM EST

maybe i'm missing something but i don't see anywhere for him to hide where someone with or without a flashlight couldn't see a 5'11,6'0' person... JMO...


Losing GZ (5.00 / 1) (#53)
by dontknowme on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 12:45:37 PM EST

TM did not have to hide (which implies taking a stationary position), merely get out of GZ's vision and change course, placing some sort of physical obstruction between them. It was dark, and the area was poorly lit. This would offer either man numerous opportunities to escape the sight of the other. The areas between the in-line buildings are probably especially dark, due to the absence of porch lights, and upon entering one of those shadows, TM could have easily gone through one of those gaps without that motion being detected by GZ.


It was very dark (none / 0) (#61)
by willisnewton on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 02:18:06 PM EST

Dark enough that GZ felt his keychain flashlight was worth turning on. Dark enough that when he first walked the cut thru east, in a hurry to do whatever - seems likely he wanted to see where the teen was - he was still talking to the dispatcher and possibly trying to make his black flashlight turn on. We don't really know, and this is just my opinion given what his father says to the press abut his route. According to the NYT, his dad was there when the videotaped walk thru happened and he observed from a distance the walk thru.

TM was wearing a grey hoodie and if he was in the general area of John's backyard - which is the only place there is evidence of him going - all other positions are speculation without witness or evidence - they as GZ passed facing east he may have not seem him over his right shoulder and slightly behind himself if he stopped at the T. And, if he looked down the T he wouldn't have seen the teen on the path either for if he did it seems he would have said or done something different. If that was the case, continuing east makes sense - both to look up and down RVC for the last-seen running (east?) teen and also to "get an address," if that was indeed a motive.

Returning west GZ likely had his keychain flashlight on ( it was found ON) and also was facing towards John's patio. TM had on reflective shoes, seen in the yellow tarp photos. It might not have taken much light to illuminate those. Also, he may have been "backlighted" against the patio light on John's patio, which cast light only down in a small pool onto the patio, but would have been a background to see a form against if you were moving west and looking that way. TM could have been anywhere on a line to john's patio and been backlit like that - either where he was killed or much closer to the T, but still on a line to be backlit.

But this is all speculation, and one person's opinion. We just don't have enough information to do more than try and guess.

But I also wonder if TM didn't take this dirt path to make the corner:

http://tinyurl.com/7rdvuph

It's the shortest route from TTL, were TM likely ran, and the body, where he eventually stopped. Any other position for the teen is speculation without physical evidence or witness testimony, save GZ's version. (TM was at the 7ELeven and under a yellow tarp, to be reductivist about it all. The rest is conjecture .)

If he did, and slowed down or stopped to speak with DeeDee he may have just hung out in the same general area where he was shot, unsure the first time if the figure that walked east, talking on his phone and fiddling with a black non-working flashlight was GZ or not. That's just my own personal opinion on a possibility. Since almost none of this is easily proven in court, it won't matter much except if a jury takes it on faith as part of a larger narrative. And the same general narrative can be argued as pro or con for the defense or prosecution.

In one version, TM "doubles back" at least from John's back yard to the T to confront and possibly assault GZ by the T, with bad intent.

In another, TM is talking on the phone in John's backyard when the flashlight illuminates him, or his shoes anyway. GZ either closes the gap, summons TM, or they meet somewhere in the middle, like near the tan bag's location. By itself none of these stories tells us much about guilt or innocence. It's just various ways one can chose to speculate.

But keep in mind there is no physical evidence in the form of dropped objects belonging to TM up by the T. The northernmost seems to be the tan bag, some 30 feet south of the T in my own speculative estimation, outlined here:

http://tinyurl.com/8x4ojbc


: All very likely (none / 0) (#77)
by IgnatiusJDonnely on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 09:05:41 AM EST

I would like to add my theories to yours.
GZ jogs at least to the T. He does not see TM.
TM probably ducked into a yard. If GZ made it to the T before he said "OK" to the dispatcher, and if TM kept running down that path to the Green house, GZ would have at least heard the sound of ruunibg footsteps on the path. He doesn't see or hear TM so he walks up to the street to see if TM exited there. GZ doesn't see anything at the street so he returns to the T. I would guess that GZ would have bet that TM was hiding in the backyard area.
Then he enters the backyard area to poke around......

OM-8 (none / 0) (#55)
by nomatter0nevermind on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 01:20:16 PM EST

Turns out there is an OM-8, though apparently only one photo released so far.


OM-8 is Cartidge Case (none / 0) (#57)
by Cylinder on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 01:30:46 PM EST

Object Marker 8 is the spent cartridge case from Zimmerman's firearm. It is referenced on parge 22 of the discovery packet as DMS-11. It's not apparent in the reduced version of the photograph because of it came to rest in an end-up orientation.


OM-8 Exists (none / 0) (#59)
by nomatter0nevermind on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 01:41:56 PM EST

Some of us thought the property inventory might be in error, because OM-8 wasn't in any of the photos we had seen.

I've seen several pictures of the cartridge case, with some kind of pointer but no object marker close to it.


: Had not seen that picture (none / 0) (#64)
by Cylinder on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 04:40:23 PM EST

I hadn't seen that particular photo as well. You can still ID it as trying to show the cartridge case by the distinctive leaf that shows in both the arrow and OM photos.
I didn't notice your username before, so I hope my earlier post didn;t come across as snide. We've discussed this issue and OM-6 before in another thread.

Naming names (none / 0) (#41)
by MJW on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 07:36:24 PM EST

On an earlier thread, Jeralyn says:

The names and addresses of witnesses will be redacted, except for those who voluntarily went on TV or other media. The order doesn't say the redaction only applies to those who disclosed their identities on TV. It could be an oversight or the Judge may believe anonymity on TV is no shield.

I don't think it's an oversight because the judge says:

This requirement would not apply to witnesses who were filmed from afar on the night of the incident while speaking with law enforcement. The above limitations apply also to audio or video recorded statements. The State may remove the speaker's name and address from the copy of the recording.

The exception would be unnecessary if the order only applied to those witnesses who disclosed their names.

there is... (none / 0) (#49)
by DebFrmHell on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 12:25:33 PM EST

a bank surveillance video listed in the original 183 pg Doc Dump. It is from M & I Bank and it is dated on 2-26-12, the day of the shooting. IIRC, that bank is within a one mile radius of The Retreat at Twin Lakes so it is easily accessible if you are traveling by car or walking.

Can anyone hazzard a guess as to what this is about? It would seem to be establishing a timeline for either Zimmerman or Martin. And either in a car or on foot.

I am wondering who they were looking at and why. There are two possible angles for the camera. One would be the ATM and possibly one that monitors the drive-thru that could be picking up actions from the street for either of these young men.

Since it is part of the investigation and subsiquent charge of Murder in the Second, I am assuming it may negatively affect Mr. Zimmerman's case.

Bank Video (none / 0) (#50)
by dontknowme on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 12:32:52 PM EST

It's probably the branch at 1381 Rinehart which would be on GZ's route to Target, but far out of the way of TM's route to 7-11. The prosecution may have obtained it because they had reason to believe it might show GZ and fix his location at a specific time. But it may not have shown anything. Since they obtained it as part of the investigation, they have to turn it over in discovery. So it might be significant, or not at all.


The bank video is a mystery (none / 0) (#52)
by MJW on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 12:45:02 PM EST

The Zimmerman's have accounts at a credit union, which make it less likely they'd also have accounts at that bank. It was Sunday, so if anyone did any banking, they must have used the ATM. I'd think if someone did used the ATM, the ATM records would probably also be included in the discovery. Both the bank and the 7-Eleven are on Rinehart Road, and it's only a 0.6 mile walk between them, but the bank is north of the road that leads up to Rinehart Road, while the 7-Eleven is south. If the video shows Martin, he didn't just pass by on the way to 7-Eleven.


Bank Video (none / 0) (#54)
by dontknowme on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 12:55:31 PM EST

Good points about the Z accounts and it being Sunday. I think a bank would have a camera on it's drive-through area and parking lot at all times. But looking at the bank layout on Goggle maps and Google Street View, I doubt any such cameras would offer views of street traffic on Rinehart, due either to position or obstruction.

Another possibility is that video of the parking lot could document position and time of someone not using the bank, but just sitting in a vehicle in the empty parking lot -- a police cruiser perhaps...

Perhaps this could relate to some internal or interagency investigation into the SPD officers' accounts of their response to the scene?


: Thank you... (none / 0) (#56)
by DebFrmHell on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 01:29:26 PM EST

for your input. I had been under the assumption that any bank surveillance videos would be of the Insight CU until it was pointed out to me that the bank used in the surveillance was M & I.
That made me curious as to why that bank and why that date.
I can safely say that now I am even more curious!

: ETA: (none / 0) (#58)
by DebFrmHell on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 01:32:29 PM EST

I would think there would be a camera in position for the front doors/parking lot as well. I, also, would think their entire property is completely monitored.

Phone transcripts - Multiple banking facilities (none / 0) (#70)
by Dilbert By Day on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 05:44:06 PM EST

The Zimmerman's have accounts at a credit union, which make it less likely they'd also have accounts at that bank.

The county jail phone transcripts reveal that on April 19, G & S Zimmerman discussed making additional cash withdrawals and tapping the safety deposit box. While questioning the wisdom of holding a large amount of cash in the Bank of Sealy (under the mattress, so to speak), George raised the "safety issue," to which SZ replied:

Shellie Zimmerman: Yeah, of course. I have, well, remember, I went to ---
George Zimmerman: yeah ---
Shellie Zimmerman: to our other one and got that out.
George Zimmerman: Yep.
Shellie Zimmerman: So, I have like $13, $15
Source - Page 5 of 6

This conversation would seem to imply that G & S Zimmerman held accounts (or safety deposit boxes) at more than one physical location. If so, these locations could represent independent financial institutions, i.e., Insight Credit Union and M & I Bank.

: Maybe, maybe not (none / 0) (#75)
by MJW on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 10:42:42 PM EST

I don't think it's clear at all that they're talking about locations. Perhaps George and Shellie each have a safety deposit box, and the "our other one" is the other box. In a document designed to make the transactions look shady, I think it's be likely that the prosecutors would, if they could, point to multiple accounts at different banks in an attempt to bolster the case.
In any event, my primary reason for doubting that the bank recorded a financial transaction by Zimmerman (or Martin) is that I'd expect records of the transaction to be included in the discovery. (On the other hand, the first batch included photos of the evidence, but no evidence map. I can't imagine a good excuse for that.)

Listed Where? (none / 0) (#60)
by nomatter0nevermind on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 01:45:35 PM EST

TM may have walked by bank (none / 0) (#62)
by willisnewton on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 04:20:31 PM EST

I hate to even bring this up because of all the wild speculation about cough syrup, but the white wal mart bag got me thinking about where the closest wally world was, and it's past that bank.

So I went to google maps and "walked" TM from the 7ELeven to the Wal Mart, circled the store once and then walked him to the clubhouse. At 3mph. 5 fps, he gets to the clubhouse at 7:09PM.

http://tinyurl.com/827mmkt

Of course this is just speculation, and proof of nada. But in some sense, it seems within the realm of possibility that TM left the 7Eleven, walked past the bank on his way to and form the wal mart and arrived at the clubhouse in time for GZ to be on the phone with dispatch.


Interesting speculatiuon (none / 0) (#63)
by MJW on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 04:38:13 PM EST

I think, though, that if Martin went to Wal Mart, there'd be surveillance video from the store. Unless, there is, but no one's checked.

That actually brings up another interesting question. If the bank video is of Zimmerman or Martin, why did anyone even think to look at it? Obviously if whoever it was in the video did an ATM transaction, they'd check, but as I mentioned earlier, I'd expect the discovery to include the bank record. The only other obvious reason I can think of is that someone reported seeing Zimmerman or Martin in the area, so they checked the nearby surveillance video.

It could, of course, turn out to be something really boring and only loosely connected to the case, as dontknowme suggested. I noticed a lot of excitement on other blogs about the Category C witnesses, with no understanding of what the category means.


Walmart bag for CPR (none / 0) (#65)
by Cylinder on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 04:51:31 PM EST

...the white wal mart bag got me thinking about where the closest wally world was, and it's past that bank.

I've been working under the assumption that the Walmart bag and first aid kit are contamination items related to the SPD request for vaseline and plastic to seal Martin's chest wound for rescue breathing.

lifted the males [Martin's] shirt and saw a chest wound. As I lifted the shirt, I felt a large, cold can in the center pocket. I directed bystanders nearby to get me some plastic wrap and Vaseline. An Asian male returned with a plastic grocery bag and I used it to seal the chest wound. I was unable to find an exit wound on the males back.

: It seems to me... (none / 0) (#67)
by MJW on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 05:06:36 PM EST

If there were video of Martin from the Walmart, the bank video would be pretty incidental. The Walmarts I've been to seem to have plenty of store and parking lot cameras. I assume they're real, though who knows? Maybe some or most are dummies to intimidate potential wrong-doers.

I believe (none / 0) (#78)
by IgnatiusJDonnely on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 09:22:22 AM EST

The Walmart bag belonged originally to one of the neighbor/witnesses.


Other possibilities (none / 0) (#72)
by Redbrow on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 07:38:27 PM EST

Maybe Trayvon was so engrossed in his conversation with DeeDee, or unable to focus for some other reason, that he neglected to turn right when he should have and continued walking down the street within view of the bank's cameras. This might explain why he took 40 minutes to complete what should have been a 15 minute walk. DeeDee stated that Trayvon was in a rush to get back to his brother but the inept interviewer never asked her to explain why his walk back took so long.

Dee Dee: Yeah, and he told me he ready to go home and watch...finish watching the game.
BDLR: The game?
Dee Dee: Yeah, he left his little brother, so he trying to rush and...
BDLR: Rushing to go back home and watch the game?
Dee Dee: Yeah.

BTW - Finish watching the game? The game that had not even started?

Or maybe the video was of suitable quality to determine exactly when it was raining and how hard. This might be useful for verifying witness statements. DeeDee was asked a few times about when it was raining or not raining and presumably so was Zimmerman.


Staying with the realm of possibilites... (none / 0) (#74)
by DebFrmHell on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 10:34:52 PM EST

It could be like they do when there is a nearby incident. They check all businesses in the surrounding areas for exterior cameras and do a search to see if a suspect's car or someone on foot is recorded.

We had an officer get shot here and there was no witness. The officer was in his patrol car stopped at a red light. A check of nearby businesses with videos came up with a green truck that was time current to the slain officer. That was the first big break in that case.

As far as the "debris field" I still think, and have said it before, that it is possible that one of those gentlemen was trying to get up that way for help. John stated that he always left in patio light on. To me a light on signifies hope that someone is home and refuge. If you have ever been stranded in the country, you know what I mean.

It could have been either one of them, IMO, at that stage but I admit I think it was Zimmerman only because he was bearing the brunt of the physical encounter.

As it turned out, John only told them to stop, that he was calling the police and he left to do just that. He made no effort to separate them.

All of this is IMO and speculation on my behalf.


: Seems like a pretty long way away (none / 0) (#76)
by MJW on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 10:55:48 PM EST

I could easily be mistaken, but I doubt they'd check the surveillance video from locations that far away unless they had some specific reason to think there was something to see. They knew Martin went to the 7-Eleven, so I can see perhaps checking all the video along the way; but the bank is in the opposite direction. Other than establishing that Martin went to the 7-Eleven, I'm not sure how much the police and prosecutors would really care about his activities prior to the shooting.

Trayvon (none / 0) (#79)
by IgnatiusJDonnely on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 09:28:30 AM EST

seemed to be wandering. He was a 17 year old boy who was spending 10 days in a place that was not his home. He was talking to at least one of his home friends and killing time. He could have passed more than a few cameras.


Halftime (none / 0) (#82)
by nomatter0nevermind on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 05:07:31 AM EST

The game began at 7:30, about the time Martin was declared dead.

NY Times, April 1:

Less than half an hour after Trayvon Martin died face down in gated grass, a privileged crowd of 17,000 rose to their feet at the N.B.A. All-Star game in Orlando, 20 miles to the south, to sing the national anthem.

When I checked some local media for the week before, about half said the game started at 7:30, and the other half said 7:00. I assume the earlier time was for some kind of pre-game show or ceremonies, or pre-game coverage by local stations.

We know Martin was at the 7-11 around 6:22 at the latest.

This video shows more of Martin's time in the store than the others I've seen.

If he went straight to the store he would have left home at some time after six, as Dee Dee said (4:18-25).

The Martins and their proxies have been misrepresenting the time Martin left home from the beginning.

Tracy Martin's call reporting his son missing has been released.

2:26-34 -

Cassandra: Will you give me a specific time on the last time you saw him?
Tracy Martin: Around eight-thirty.
Cassandra: Eight-thirty?
Tracy: Yeah. Eight, eight-thirty last night. Yes.

Reuters, March 7:

Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said.

I suppose there could have been pre-pre-game 'coverage' as early as six o'clock.

If the walk back from the store was ten minutes, Martin could have reached the mail kiosk between 6:35 and 6:40. Dee Dee said he arrived there about the time their phone connection failed. That would be around 6:53-54, unless there were un-mentioned call drops during the time Martin waited for the rain to slacken.

Phone records.

Huffington Post, March 8:

During halftime of the NBA All-Star Game, Martin's family said he walked to a nearby convenience store to get some candy for his younger brother.

This seems to be the first appearance of the 'halftime' meme. Note that it was not attributed to a specific source, but to 'Martin's family'.

The Reuters and Huffington Post reports appeared after Ryan Julison, a publicist recruited by Natalie Jackson, 'pitched the story to a long list of media contacts.' (Reuters, April 3)

The March 7 Reuters report quoted Julison as 'a spokesman for the family.'

There is video of an interview with a man purporting to be Chad's father. I don't know the date.

0:23-37

You know, I asked him, I said 'What happened that night, then?'
He said, well, Trayvon, at halftime of the All Stars game, he wanted to go to the store and get a drink. And he asked Chad, you know, 'What do you want back?' And Chad told him, 'Hey, I'll take a pack of Skittles.'

The one interview I know of with Chad himself (same link, and here) gives the impression that Trayvon left before the game began, without quite explicitly saying so.


O'Mara Motion calls for exclusion (none / 0) (#80)
by cboldt on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 10:47:55 AM EST

O'Mara's motion calls for exclusion of one of W9's communications with SPD, from public disclosure. The basis he cites is that the information given to SPD is not relevant to the case, and would be inflammatory of public sentiment against Zimmerman.

: W9 (none / 0) (#83)
by HupHup on Tue Jun 26, 2012 at 05:11:57 PM EST

After hearing the W9 statement that was released, one of the things that bothers me is that she calls Zimmerman's mother a racist, too. Quote: "It's in his blood" ... "I know his mother and they are all the same way".
Since his mother had one black grandparent herself, I find it very hard to believe that she has or expresses racist sentiments.