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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

A place for your unrelated comments, intelligent or not so much.

I'm gone for the day and won't be around tomorrow either.

Open Thread.

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  • Class, please discuss whether BTD's (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:17:48 AM EST
    self-imposed anger mgt. training is a classic fail.

    How can we tell... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:43:29 AM EST
    if we're all just a bunch of stupidheads?

    Parent
    Good point. (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:21:27 PM EST
    No gold stars... (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:46:21 AM EST
    for the class today, Jeralyn & BTD have had it...we're all gonna get sent to the corner in dunce caps;)

    Parent
    Aloha from Vietnam, and ... (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:52:28 PM EST
    ... please speak for yourself. I don't do dunce caps. They muss up my hair.

    ;-)

    Parent

    It you doodle flowers on it (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:12:44 PM EST
    It really pi$$e$ them off :)

    Parent
    So much for my thought of going to (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:02:52 PM EST
    San Jose for the next Network Nation.  Might get punched in the nose!

    Parent
    You better be there (none / 0) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:25:50 PM EST
    Some items falling into place for me.  I might be on scholarship.  Don't worry, I'll bring a dog

    Parent
    Who'll be scared of a big poodle? (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:33:01 PM EST
    Okay, I'll bring a different one (none / 0) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:36:57 PM EST
    You are correct, bouffant isn't always frightening.  I'll bring a German Shepherd. I'll bring Major.  He is like his daddy Othello and he adores everything female....anything else is lowly and suspect.

    Parent
    You know, he might have a chance of scaring (none / 0) (#189)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:11:14 PM EST
    someonescaring someone of he name weren't bouffant,!

    Parent
    If somebody over there would just answer (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:04:12 PM EST
    my question about the back story re the marching band, perhaps I could get a scholarship to be artistic director of the music program.  Black-eyed Peas?  What the heck is that????

    Parent
    At this time in our nations history (none / 0) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:35:28 PM EST
    Anger management is perhaps overrated?

    Ecclesiastes 3

    New International Version (NIV)
    A Time for Everything

    3 There is a time for everything,
        and a season for every activity under the heavens:

    2   a time to be born and a time to die,
        a time to plant and a time to uproot,
    3   a time to kill and a time to heal,
        a time to tear down and a time to build,
    4   a time to weep and a time to laugh,
        a time to mourn and a time to dance,
    5   a time to scatter stones and a time to gather
        them,
        a time to embrace and a time to refrain from
        embracing,
    6   a time to search and a time to give up,
        a time to keep and a time to throw away,
    7   a time to tear and a time to mend,
        a time to be silent and a time to speak,
    8   a time to love and a time to hate,
        a time for war and a time for peace.

    Things that stand out for me as the election approaches are refrain from embracing, speak, uproot.....mumble...die, mumble.....mumble....war

    Parent

    Who MT would evah be quoting the Old (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:46:43 PM EST
    Testament.  Or Pete Seeger.  

    Parent
    Know your enemy (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:49:42 PM EST
    Use their own $hit against them :)  Psy-Ops

    Parent
    From the Book of Rude (none / 0) (#153)
    by DFLer on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:42:14 PM EST
    Chapter 1; verse 1 If you eat sh#t, that's what they will serve you.

    Parent
    Better politics (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:14:07 PM EST
    than I thought it would be:

    "Almost two-thirds of likely voters approve of President Obama's order that allows more than 800,000 young illegal immigrants to remain in the United States without fear of deportation, according to a Bloomberg poll published Tuesday."

    This makes me feel a little bit better about likely-voters as people.

    OK. At least I can stand to read (none / 0) (#9)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:23:09 PM EST
    this comment, of which I heartily approve.  

    Parent
    sorry about the others? (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:37:20 PM EST
    I'm also going to anger management training soon.

    Aka vacation.

    Parent

    I should have italicized the "I." (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:50:53 PM EST
    Ah, but (none / 0) (#13)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:37:52 PM EST
    Here's a different take of why this announcement may not have much affect at all with voters.

    Parent
    well 2 things (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    number 1: way to be a debbie downer

    number 2: over 60% of independents support this policy.  In other words, this is no longer just about the hispanic/traditional Dem vote.

    Parent

    "Debbie Downer" (none / 0) (#15)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:43:05 PM EST
    AKA - not necessarily taking everything blindly at face value and looking at more than one opinion on how this plays politically??

    Sure - I'll claim that.

    And I think the article covers for those independents, who, may support this policy, but that alone does not translate into votes for Obama, since many of them do not support his economic progress or plans.

    Parent

    The article (none / 0) (#18)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:51:38 PM EST
    you linked to only talks about hispanic voters.

    I posted the original because it made me happy that most Americans don't think we should deport young people who were brought here before they could make their own decisions.  I didn't think as highly of the likely-voter before this.  I never meant to imply it was an election game-changer.  Hence the "debbie downer".  Can't you just look at something positively for once?

    Parent

    I recall (none / 0) (#20)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    Applauding this decision, here on this blog, when it was announced, so your comment really makes no sense.

    That being said - I like to look at the politics and political moves each side makes and how these play to a general audience and not to the "fans" (because, let's face it, as kdog points out, this wasn't an epiphany.  It was electoral strategy, coldly calculated - pure and simple). You like to look at the actions through the eyes of a partisan who wants your team to win - that's fine, but you keep jumping on me for not being as rah-rah as you are. I think the Republicans are nuts, but I think the Democrats have sold out the American people, and haven't really given me a reason to support them either. IMO, the Democrats' sins are far, far worse and much more unforgivable.

    And no, if you actually read the whole article, it deals with Latinos and white voters, and is just a snapshot. It also points out that policies made like this - 5 months out, will generally not have a huge impact on the election.  And it was just another point of view, as I said.  I happen to think mulitple points of view are good to read and digest - some people only like to read and hear those that agree with them.

    Parent

    ey (none / 0) (#22)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:08:01 PM EST
    my comment wasn't about Obama or rah-rah dems must win.  Just because you read my comments through that lens doesn't mean that's how I'm writing them.

    I read it, it mentions that white working class voters won't like it, but provides little basis for that and as I said, doesn't really address independents.

    Also what does "some people" even mean?  "Some people" think that the sun revolves around the earth.  There is no way to have a conversation about "some people".  If you're talking about me or someone specific, just say it.

    Parent

    "Some people" (none / 0) (#25)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:17:49 PM EST
    Means just that - more than one, but not necessarily all. It means some people around here are rah-rah partisans, but not all of them. You're smart and I shouldn't have to explain it.

    And just because YOU read my original comment as a "debbie downer" because all I did was provide another perspective to the discussion - without my own thoughts - means that you are reading things into my comments through a certain lens, so can we both just take a step back and breathe?

    Parent

    btw (none / 0) (#26)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:20:21 PM EST
    debbie downer was a bad attempt at a joke.

    I probably should've just said that the first time but I got annoyed by the rest of your comment.

    I need that vacation.

    Parent

    Dear jbindc (none / 0) (#69)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:51:01 PM EST
    let me say that you, jbindc, are s t r e t c h i n g in this series of comments, stretching to find that "other side" of the story.  Yes, there is always another side, there is always another take, of course.  But, I think that you might agree that the Friday announcement has yet to be met with any staying force by the Republicans.

    Why? Demographics & specific locations (she says from Colorado.) More importantly, as Gallup pointed out the other day, its survey of attitudes toward the immigration issue has shown a more welcoming attitude on the part of everyone by a significant margin...the most welcoming since it began surveying that question in 1965 (with about 64% more accepting of immigration.) And, yes, the Bloomberg poll released today shows a two to one support for the President's stated approach to certain young undocumenteds by the populace at large and by the Independents component. Also, a measurement by Latino Decisions the other day shows exceptional approval & positive change in enthusiasm level for the President's approach by Hispanics. AND: this was also sampled before the contrast that is now being made with Mr. Romney avoiding answering the question (see Sunday's Face the Nation and subsequent media evaluations that Romney was "avoiding" "evasive" "would not answer" & more.) Hey, and didn't Romney say--on film--that he would veto the Dream Act!?!

    You are accurate, naturally, in saying that you initially applauded the Presidential announcement.  All I'm suggesting is that the resultant effect may be more than a coversation changer.

    BTW, my "favorite" part--with the popcorn & all--is the wedge aspect of Rubio, Jeb Bush, and some on the other side complaining (whining) about process.  In this political season, it is almost amusing to see the wedge on the opponent's side.  Of course, my husband is more focused on the comparison between the wind-surfing of several years back versus the dressage of this summer...he is entranced with the pronounciation of dressage and even asks acquaintances whether they like sport.  Ah well, we move from one political jostle to another.

    From Christine P, the rah-rah partisan (Democrat)

    Parent

    The pronunciation fits the event; (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:46:55 PM EST
    if we pronounced it "DRESS-idge," it just wouldn't convey the proper amount of elegance - or how much it costs!

    I am not completely kidding about that.  If you've ever seen it done, or better, tried to train a horse to do the kinds of controlled moves the event requires, you'd agree that "dre-SAHZH" is a much better fit.

    If we're talking political dressage, though, I don't think either of these candidates is particularly deft at it, but Romney seems particularly clunky and awkward, sitting atop a "horse" that seems to have moved well past its usefulness and making people think "glue factory."  Obama seems to have more instinct for the sport, but he's sitting atop a horse that wants to make the moves that it can do well and with precision, but Obama's afraid to ease up on the reins and keeps sending mixed messages.

    [Okay, enough dressage metaphors...]


    Parent

    Yes, Anne (none / 0) (#102)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:48:45 PM EST
    But what's really important in your scenario - what will they each be wearing??

    Parent
    Oh, there are very specific rules about (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:51:40 PM EST
    how both rider and horse are turned out for dressage competition; one must at least look the part, you know?

    Parent
    Dear christine (none / 0) (#78)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:07:08 PM EST
    While this was a good move by the President, albeit way too late and seen by many people (who approve of it, BTW) as a political move, rather than a core value, it's five months from the election.  And has been pointed out time and again - just because people agree with a policy does not mean they will agree with other policies and the handling of the economy and does not mean they will vote for Obama.  Maybe some will change their mind and vote for him, but even the fact that a significant portion of Latinos do not consider this the biggest issue of the election, but rather are worried about the economy, should be of concern to the Democrats.

    Which is why silly season is upon us as we are discussing dressage while the other side is playing up Obama's 100th golf game as president at a toney Chicago country club. Talking heads will go on their respective champion networks and the pundits on those networks will continue to push the respective party's talking points.  

    And we all get dumber as a nation and left further behind.

    Parent

    It turns out the expenses of dressage (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:11:37 PM EST
    are deductible.  Amazing.

    Meanwhile, Mitch McConnell says the little people are getting all the tax breaks.  

    Parent

    Yes, an Olympic business tax (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:19:25 PM EST
    deduction. On the Romney's 2010 return they declared a loss of $77,000 for the care and feeding of Rafalca, their nice dancing horse.  Didn't know expenses for sport were deductible--could have used a little help with my new tennis racket.

    Parent
    Really? 77lk to care for (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:32:27 PM EST
    a pet (or hobby) is a loss on your taxes if you're a Romney?

    Hmmm . . . something tells me if I want to train my Dal and trial her in agility/dog sports, I won't get the same loss on my taxes . . .   be nice to have a spare 77k to drop on my pets though, oh the places we could go! :)

    Parent

    The horse (none / 0) (#82)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:16:00 PM EST
    is an Olympic athlete!

    Parent
    Then deductions should be limited to the (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:21:56 PM EST
    cost of the Olympic medal, if any.  

    Parent
    Your studied response belies the conclusion (none / 0) (#81)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:15:00 PM EST
    in that you certainly are not dumb :)

    Parent
    No, I am not (none / 0) (#83)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:16:24 PM EST
    But are you "related"? (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:18:27 PM EST
    No (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:46:24 PM EST
    Not "related" in any way!

    But I was being insulted in a backhanded way, so I will get my own popcorn and watch the contortionists of both stripes try to inflate one side and downplay the other, all the while just chuckling to myself.

    Parent

    Do not take offense. I was (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:53:34 PM EST
    riffing on a headliner here who pronounced comments stupid and "unrelated."  

    Parent
    Oh, no! (none / 0) (#113)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:02:47 PM EST
    No offense taken from you oculus!

    (Actually, I wish I was "related"  - to the Romney money!  :)

    Parent

    I Would Add... (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:02:57 PM EST
    ...after speaking with a couple righty friends this weekend...

    They don't disagree with the policy, but the implementation, which is essentially an executive order.

    Not proof of anything, but just because someone agrees with a policy doesn't necessarily agree with it's implementation.  And certainly doesn't equate to votes, which of course seems to be the obvious motivation.

    Funny how Obama has suddenly decided to flex a little Presidential muscle, and hilarious as to his all of a sudden new found lust for traditional Democratic Party values.

    Parent

    Sure ....so I am sure they tried to influence (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:14:09 PM EST
    their righty congress to enact the Dream Act on its merits?

    When the policy is popular they always say they are for it, and it is just the method they disagree with. But they have had a long time to get behind the policy.

    Parent

    Big enthusiasm spike too, I read somewhere... (none / 0) (#23)
    by magster on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:09:10 PM EST
    ... enthusiasm and getting out first time voters was a key for Obama last time. Getting a better latino turnout could really pay dividends in CO, NM, NV and maybe even AZ.

    Parent
    five thirty-eight.com (none / 0) (#44)
    by magster on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:11:36 PM EST
    just posted an article that said, 5% greater latino enthusiasm coupled with 5% higher latino support for Obama than what exists presently could mean a 1% point difference in the election given current demographics.

    Parent
    But: (none / 0) (#123)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:22:54 PM EST
    Hopefully some of that new-found enthusiasm... (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by magster on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:06:31 PM EST
    ... results in voter registration.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#125)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:25:09 PM EST
    Just as the article Sean Trende wrote that I posted above, that was not taken quite seriously enough.

    This might make a difference in a couple of states.

    Parent

    Registration is top priority in Colorado (none / 0) (#131)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:43:26 PM EST
    Keep a positive outlook, CST (none / 0) (#32)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:52:44 PM EST
    It is not all doom & gloom.

    And, for continuing interest as to the matter of the President's immigtation announcement: Both President Obama and Mr. Romney are scheduled to address the National Association of Latino Elected Officials (NALEO) in Florida later in the week.  My, my...maybe Mitt will have figured out what to say about his position that can be translated in any language...maybe he will be able to figure out a way to reach out to Independents without "offending" his Republican base. I wonder (not.)

    Parent

    Maybe he will talk about his plan to (5.00 / 6) (#34)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:55:01 PM EST
    get government out of the immigration business and make living here as easy as using a touch-screen device at all points of entry?

    Or maybe not...I keep losing track of when government is good and when it's not...

    Parent

    That's Easy (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:28:54 PM EST
    From the republican perspective...

    The parts of the fed that help people are bad.
       Dept of Ed, Social Security, any government assistance

    The parts that hurt people are good.
       DEA, Immigration, and Military

    It's really is that simple.

    Parent

    Yup, it really is (none / 0) (#193)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:15:26 PM EST
    Mittens will probably (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:42:34 PM EST
    give his speech to the Latino Elected Officials in French.  

    Parent
    Where is Obama's discretion... (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:46:41 PM EST
    via executive order in regards to his campaign promise to call off the DEA dogs in medical marijuana states? In his Rolling Stione interview he said his hands are tied by federal law, same as he said in regards to the deportation issue up until last week.  I hope he's not playing politics with people's very lives...but that's what it looks like with the flip-flopping....making people suffer for 3 years so he can play hero in an election year?  Ice f*ckin' cold.

    I'm glad he's excercising his discretion to end these cruel and unusual deportations and all, better late than never...but he looks incompetent or worse with the flip-flopping. I don't buy this moral awakening sh*t, he knew these deportations were evil all along.  And if he has discretion here, surely he has discretion in many areas where the law does more harm than good....f*ckin' use it man.

    It is difficult to disagree w/you in light (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:52:38 PM EST
    to today's NYT article about kids deported to Mexico, where the schools aren't equipped to deal with Spanish as a Second Language students.  

    Parent
    He already has the (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:04:44 PM EST
    medical mary jane vote.

    When you don't have anything with which  to pay off the assembly man ... err President.... you don't get your street cleaned.

    Parent

    He already had the latino vote too... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:10:09 PM EST
    does that mean we're gonna see more common decency by executive order between now and November?

    Wouldn't it be nice...As long as it ain't all repealed come January;)

    Parent

    Hey kdog--Enforcement Discretion or EO? (none / 0) (#52)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:28:01 PM EST
    There is a real difference between the two.  The Discretion approach sets out factors for potential and/or even likely results...no guarantee.  Splitting hairs? Well, the distinction is what law does, doesn't it (or shouldn't it.)

    And, isn't it nice & more that the President & his staff have found a way to aid the Dreamers in this temporary situation while--at the same time--drive the Repubs up the wall as they are now motionless (at least for a few days) between the nearest right-wing rock & the the further right-wing hard place.  And, exposed as blue meanies even.

    Parent

    Whatever holds more water... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:43:18 PM EST
    order preferred to discretion, discretion better than nothing.  Changing/repealing/passing laws the best way, but impossible with our sh*tty corrupt congress.

    And yeah it sure is nice, if 3 years late...not to go all Dougie Downer on ya;)  But isn't it infuriating that he let all them DREAMers get deported for 3 years?  

    How about an executive order to let all of them come on back home where they belong?  

    Parent

    I'd love to see the return too, kdog (none / 0) (#77)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:07:07 PM EST
    But, as I said, there was a legal reason for the use of Enforcement Discretion. For one, it is much easier for the ever-present, fire-breathing, anti-immigration types to challenge & otherwise pounce on an Execuative Order.  Remember, too, that President Obama pushed for/supported the Dream Act which the Repubs then rejected.  

    I see it this way: Obama found a way around the Repubs continuing, documented resistance regarding acting humanely toward undocumented individuals in any situation. And, after making every public attempt to go the Congressional route, he did it publicly, strongly, and as timely as could be under the circumstances. (I have no answer as to those already sent back anymore than I have an answer as to any previous suffering. The only thing I can say is a variation--and mean it--better now than never, better going forward than backward.)

    Parent

    If he had the power to issue an... (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:17:45 PM EST
    executive order all along, I can't call it timely Christine.  Timely would have been issuing the order not long after being sworn in....instead we got (In)Secure Communities and lies about who was getting deported and why.    

    Why do you think he finally did something for American children without papers?  Is it all just a game to make the immigration fire-breathers in the Republican party look as bad as possible at the most opportune time for the Democratic party?  

    That's the kinda playing chess with people's lives that really sickens me about politics...you do what is right and within your power as soon as possible, and come what may.

    Parent

    Disagree (none / 0) (#106)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:55:10 PM EST
    First: I think there is some mis-communication on my part about why the President chose Enforcement Discretion as the appropriate avenue (and avoided the arguable reach of an Executive Order.)

    Second: Apart from any dispute over the proper mechanism, I view the "reality" a bit differently. Although my gut supports your intent with its conclusion that it-should-have-been-done-much-earlier, my own conclusion is based upon my read of timing.  That is: Only recently--as noted by Gallup the other day in its finding of a new, unprecedented acceptance relative to immigrants since it first began sampling the question in 1965--has the acceptance level been there.  Politically, only recently have the demographics amounted to a change wherein the action of Friday would not be a political suicide.  Now, the timing is such that the action is seen as natural, lauded even...not so long ago that situation would have been clouded by the demagoguery of the right in LA, Colorado, etc.

    He$$,I parted ways with a friend of 30 years when we inadvertently talked about a rally supporting immigrants which I attended in Denver about 4 years ago, and she sparked with anger that the undocumented workers were here "illegally."  She referred to her German grandparents & how law-abiding in Iowa they were and how everybody should be the same.  She was red-faced, spouting, and told me I demeaned the family farm.  Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...the play was fine & she was a smart, caring person.  Later, I would have a near miss collision with a cousin of mine in Wyoming over the same issue...as he thought the country was being "overrun."  

    Maybe there is too much sun out here in the West; there definitely is in Arizona. The point, I guess, is that the situation is shifting as the population shifts and as the arguments & discussions were allowed to happen about the Dreamers and their horrendous dilemma. When you have such an inflamed, emotional situation--and here is where my difference with your conclusion comes--the better path may be the strategic, methodical path followed effectively by President Obama.  Underlying that reasoning for me is a personal opinion that I would like to see a forward action on a number of fronts because to fall on the sword or gamble big on one issue here risks losing much more in other areas. And, since it is also my opinion that a too early call by the President to be seen as acting totally on his own would have played into the political reality of what is now a rightwing rubric of a man acting extra-legally against the country...and, that false characterization would be to the detriment of all of us.  That is why we differ on timing.

    Parent

    Oddly enough (none / 0) (#122)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:20:45 PM EST
    Latinos are only the number 2 group of immigrants coming here. In 2010, 36% of immigrants were from Asia (also not a monolithic group), while only 31% were Hispanic, according to a Pew Research study.

    Asians recently passed Hispanics as the largest group of new immigrants to the United States. The educational credentials of these recent arrivals are striking. More than six-in-ten (61%) adults ages 25 to 64 who have come from Asia in recent years have at least a bachelor's degree. This is double the share among recent non-Asian arrivals, and almost surely makes the recent Asian arrivals the most highly educated cohort of immigrants in U.S. history.

    Compared with the educational attainment of the population in their country of origin, recent Asian immigrants also stand out as a select group. For example, about 27% of adults ages 25 to 64 in South Korea and 25% in Japan have a bachelor's degree or more.2 In contrast, nearly 70% of comparably aged recent immigrants from these two countries have at least a bachelor's degree.

    Recent Asian immigrants are also about three times as likely as recent immigrants from other parts of the world to receive their green cards--or permanent resident status--on the basis of employer rather than family sponsorship (though family reunification remains the most common legal gateway to the U.S. for Asian immigrants, as it is for all immigrants).

    Good news for the Democrats in general.

    Compared with the general public, Asian Americans are more likely to support an activist government and less likely to identify as Republicans. Half are Democrats or lean Democratic, while only 28% identify with or lean toward the GOP. Among all American adults, 49% fall in the Democratic camp and 39% identify with or lean toward the Republican Party. Indian Americans are the most heavily Democratic Asian subgroup (65%), while Filipino Americans and Vietnamese Americans are the most evenly split between the two parties.

    President Obama gets higher ratings from Asian Americans than from the general public --54% approve of the way he is handling his job as president, compared with 44% of the general public. In 2008, Asian-American voters supported Obama over Republican John McCain by 62% to 35%, according to Election Day exit polls.12

    On balance, Asian Americans prefer a big government that provides more services (55%) over a smaller government than provides fewer services (36%). In contrast, the general public prefers a smaller government over a bigger government, by 52% to 39%.



    Parent
    Appreciate the Pew excerpt (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:55:59 PM EST
    As for your well-taken point, from time to time, that a particular ethnic or racial group is not monolithic, that is a good reminder.  As a Roman Catholic (ala the EJ Dionne variety & as one who admires the dedication of the American nuns), that emphasis that groups are less "monolithic" than they may once have been is important. But, in honesty, we do know that certain religious, minority, & ethnic groups can/do strongly prefer one political party--at this time--over another. That is why the "enthusiasm level" of Hispanic voters is such an obvious focus...because it will translate to votes.

    Parent
    "Hispanics" (none / 0) (#139)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:05:31 PM EST
    or "Latinos" are not a monolithic group either - witness the Cubans and Cuban-Americans in Florida who aling in great numbers with the Republican Party (as do a great many folk who immigrate here from repressive, autocratic forms of government).

    But a great majority of Hispanics currently vote Democratic anyway, although I read one study about a month ago that shows that could change over a generation, as more assimilate and make more money (as, since we are still lumping them together) many of them are more socially conservative than other Americans.

    My guess is this won't even be a news story in the A-section by election day.

    Parent

    If Colorado & Nevada (none / 0) (#141)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:08:08 PM EST
    (and, possibly, Virginia) play a role in a Democratic victory in November, I would offer that you & I will read a lot about this story for the foreseeable future.

    Parent
    I just love how (none / 0) (#145)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:16:10 PM EST
    Some people here apparently support the idea of "importing a new electorate" and often don't even care if the people entering the country are even doing so legally.

    This is, knowingly or unknowingly, a recipe for a Civil War or a split up country.

    I don't really care because with the last few Presidents feeling free to use all but the most obvious and well-defended parts of the Constitution as toilet paper, I no longer view this place as The United States of America.

    Still it does boggle the mind that some, like jbindc apparently think there is going to be enough time with the current political setup for
    these "demographic" trends to mean much of anything in terms of the two current dominant parties.

    Parent

    Not sure why you're invoking my name (none / 0) (#147)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:18:25 PM EST
    As it seems there are more folks around here who think Obama's announcement is a game-changer, but apparently nonsense is running rampant around here today.

    Parent
    Baloney (none / 0) (#182)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:22:55 PM EST
    At the heart of it is that this nation grew, prospered, and is what it is because it is a "nation of laws and of immigrants."

    The fact, the demographic reality, that there are also electoral ramifications exists.  For those who have been demagoging the earlier anger toward undocumented immigrants (including the Dreamers addressed by last Friday's policy statement), all I can say is something akin to "wake up & smell the coffee."  From the Irish potato famine and the xenophobia gripping the country with no-Irish-need-apply invocations to today's variation, one thing that is certain:  America is the melting-pot that we were all taught about, a melting-pot in the best sense of the world.  And, in the context of changing demographics, we inevitably move forward.

    Parent

    christinep (none / 0) (#183)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:32:27 PM EST
    LOL.
    ChristineP that isn't an argument, it's an article of faith.
    The "melting pot" is dead. "Multiculturalism" and its various poisonous offspring killed it.

    Sure you can have a nation of any number of races and ethnicities if they all agree on the civics. But when they gather in electoral groups and start looking out only for number one - and their visions of what public life are about is incompatible - that is not a recipe for harmony.

    It's sad, but colorblindness was the only way to go. We failed that, and so now our nation fails. The current political corruption is just icing on a very bad cake.

    Parent

    When you claim that another is (none / 0) (#186)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:44:52 PM EST
    exercising "an article of faith," well...well and good.  But, then it would seem incumbent that you back up your following position with something other than an emotional venting about the effect of non-color-blindedness.  

    Look, stevie, it may come down to power attempts to hold onto power.  The individuals/group that grew to be the power elite in this country typically were middle-age to older white men.  That is changing.  To the extent, that the change moves toward a broader power-sharing in our society--and I believe it will--I consider that a good.  (Necessarily, because of the nature of the statement, my words reflect my values.)

    Parent

    Sorry for the mis-address, slayersrezo (none / 0) (#194)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:17:11 PM EST
    Ok just saw this (none / 0) (#197)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:26:43 PM EST
    Figured you might have thought I was that conservative person using a different name or something. I think I predate him on this blog, I certainly don't write like he does nor agree with all that he says.

    Parent
    ChristineP again... (none / 0) (#196)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:23:45 PM EST
    My name is not Stevie, though you can call me Rezo if you'd like.

    I don't care about "power" in that regards. The point of a country is not WHO "wields power" but how it is wielded. Is it wielded for the greater good of everyone (including "evil" white males)reflecting the will the national polity, or is it wielded solely for the gains and good of a particular constituency?  A country has to be governed by shared concepts of values and shared concepts of rules or it ceases to be.

    As for your lust for power -noted.
    Course these days there are nukes and the potential for home made biological weapons and all of that - we might find out that civil war isn't so "civil" this time.

    Parent

    Twist, twist (none / 0) (#200)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:46:49 PM EST
    Oh Slayersrezo: Yes, a a country should be about the good of all. Yes and yes.  It should not be about the who.  We agree on that.  What we see differenty, tho, appears to be how we define what is for the good of all, for the good of the country.  I don't have the absolute answer; neither do you. (Nope, you don't.)  What experience, study, observation suggests to me is that assembling the multi-cultural, energizing the multi-cultural, increasing diversity in all its shades and realities is much more likely to result in creative, inventive, sustaining resolutions than having the same old group talk about the same old things in the same way with the same results.  I am not advising undirected, chaotic input nor decisionmaking...I am stressing that incorporating, adapting from multiple sources yields the most enlivened promising product.  

    Also: I would advise that nowhere did I imply/state that the old guard or white men are "evil" as one might surmise from your quote marks.  Goodness, my best friend is my blue-eyed, blond-haried, fair-skinned husband...who, btw, has long hoped for and endorsed the multicultural decisionmaking structure that is involved in this discussion.  Finally: I am not obssessed with power; simply aware of it and its usage.

    Parent

    So yesterday (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:38:17 PM EST
    I gave notice at my job.

    By going on vacation, what I really mean is I'm travelling for a few weeks then spending the rest of the summer on an island waiting tables and taking care of my grandmother - then starting grad school in the fall.

    I'm nervous/excited about starting over, but I figure now is the time to do it, since I'm young, I don't have kids, and I have been working in a decent job that bores the life out of me for 6 years in the midst of a bad recession.  I stuck it out 4 years longer than I would have if it weren't for the market crash, but now I'm done.

    Plan B is move to the country, make a tent out of brush, and eat worms until my vegetables grow.

    Wow. A life-changer. Good for you (5.00 / 6) (#29)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:42:10 PM EST
    and best wishes.  

    Parent
    Good luck, and enjoy (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Farmboy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    your island adventure.

    Parent
    Good for you CST (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:52:05 PM EST
    I admire that to no end. What will you be studying in grad school?

    Have a great summer and I hope you will still be able to post here!

    Parent

    Scary, but exciting, so good for you for (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:52:47 PM EST
    taking that leap; it's one of those things you just have to do when the window is open, lest life close it for you and you regret it forever.

    Can I assume that grad school is a stepping-stone to doing something way less soul-killing than what you have been doing?  Because I am a firm believer that, when it's at all poaaible, people should find a way to make a living doing what they love, doing what energizes them and makes them happy to get up and go to "work."

    I do so envy you a summer of beach living; some of my best summers were spent waiting tables!

    Hope you'll be staying connected here, although, if I had a beach at my disposal, and a fully-loaded Nook, I'm not sure I'd be as invested in politics as I am now.

    Enjoy!

    Parent

    yea (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:06:21 PM EST
    thanks everyone for the comments.

    I'm going into kdog's much maligned field of city planning :)  I've been an engineer the last few years, which is a dot the i's cross the t's type of job.  So with city planning my experience will still be relevant but I will be able to go for more big picture type of jobs where I can influence things I actually care about, and the day to day work is more interesting (to me).  Plus I have a bit of a professional network in that field already.  At first I just looked for other jobs, but all the ones I really wanted were looking for a masters in planning/public policy.  Also, I realized I'm actually looking forward to the classes I have to take.  So here I am.

    I am sure I won't be online as much, but I'll still have internet access so you're probably not getting rid of me entirely.  I waited tables in college but I always had a "more important" summer job so this is the first time I've really done something like this.

    Like I said, nervous and exciting, but I'm looking forward to the change, and we'll just have to wait and see.  Hopefully by the time I graduate things will be a bit better as a whole, and I'm grateful right now to live in a state where it's not so bad, so I have some confidence making this move.

    Parent

    Good luck (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:11:59 PM EST
    to you. And you're right to be doing this now before you have other responsibilities in your life. All the better if you're following a passion!

    Parent
    I have faith... (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:35:42 PM EST
    you won't go all Robert Moses power-tripping as a city planner.

    Just do your old pal a favor and always remember the individual and his/her rights, and of course those pesky unintended consequences, while helping to build a better place to live for some lucky city.

    Parent

    Can you get us some sidewalks (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:45:59 PM EST
    down here in the South?  We're dying, literally...from lack of simple exercise.

    Parent
    Talk to Scott! (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:30:05 PM EST
    He's the one in Houston.

    I've thought about moving.  I think about moving a lot.  But when your family is in a place, and your friends are in a place, there has to be a compelling reason to do so.  Plus... I secretly love blizzards and I tend to sunburn.

    I think there is something to be said for going where you are needed, vs going to a place where you are surrounded by people who agree with you.  But the flip side of that is you have to feel like you could actually accomplish something.

    Also - for Scott - I'll be here.  Rough life, I know, but someone's gotta keep the tourists across the ferry drunk :)  This is the Island as I know it.

    Parent

    Gorgeous photos (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:40:52 PM EST
    Scandalous hangout

    Parent
    Very political island! And beautiful. (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:56:24 PM EST
    A perfect place for Cosmos and gossip (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:35:29 PM EST
    Really, really best of luck (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:38:38 PM EST
    to you, CST.  I hope that your dreams are realized.  It's really great that you are looking forward to the classes you will be taking, and are so open to learning some new things.


    Parent
    I'm Jealous (none / 0) (#58)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:36:37 PM EST
    I was an Urban Planning major long ago and fate would have none of it.  It's been so long ago that one of the classes I took was devoted entirely to the original Sim City.  Pre-internet days, or at least pre-everyone on the internet.

    Funny thing, I ended up in a city with no zoning what-so-ever, Houston.  Fate ?!?

    Good luck and if I may ask, what island ?

    Parent

    Good for you! (none / 0) (#143)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:10:06 PM EST
    I always thought the city planners I was submitting my transpo/subdivision designs to had the better jobs. Now, as an old (40's) man, they're all retired with pensions after 20 years and I'm still a working stiff, so I think I was right!

    Best of luck, what school will you attend?

    Parent

    Good luck... (none / 0) (#187)
    by desertswine on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:48:25 PM EST
    It's gonna be great!!

    Parent
    Good for you, CST. (none / 0) (#188)
    by caseyOR on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:06:29 PM EST
    What you are doing is both brave and, I bet, terrifying. A summer at the beach is a perfect prelude to grad school.

    I live in a city and a state that is obsessed with planning. While it can sometimes be a bit tedious, the end result is usually a much better place to live.

    Parent

    Wow, how exciting. Would love to read some (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Angel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:01:25 PM EST
    posts from you while you're away.

    Parent
    Think "Mystic Pizza." (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:27:50 PM EST
    so you're saying I'll meet my rich husband (none / 0) (#55)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:30:58 PM EST
    or I'll have an affair with a married man who's kid I'm babysitting?  Or I'll be a sex addict who won't marry my boyfriend?

    Sounds like a fun summer ;)

    Parent

    Do not limit yourself to one option! It is a long (5.00 / 3) (#195)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:17:29 PM EST
    hot summer.....

    Parent
    Trade places with me??? LOL (none / 0) (#73)
    by Angel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:01:49 PM EST
    I bred (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:37:46 PM EST
    Now I have to stand here and make sure that nothing eats them.  Now I will live vicariously through you.

    Parent
    Very smart decision ! (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by samsguy18 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:42:19 PM EST
    I have encouraged my own children to do the same....this is a good time

    Parent
    Me too. Sorry about the employment (none / 0) (#74)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:03:17 PM EST
    situation.  

    Parent
    That sounds great! (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:18:03 PM EST
    Congratulations and good for you for making the jump.  That makes me happy.  My current career is boring me as well and I'll probably make a change (I hope) within the next year.  It's probably just natural to not be head over heels in love with what you're doing professionally in your 20s in most cases, but I do think about the economy and wonder if I would be playing it so safe if it was better.  Probably not.  Oh well.  Good luck on the island and enjoy your time with your grandmother.

    Parent
    Wonderful...sounds perfectly positive, CST (none / 0) (#35)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:56:33 PM EST
    I wish I had your balls.... (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:56:51 PM EST
    Best of luck CST, wicked smart gals like you always land on their feet.  Enjoy an island summer with grandma...waiting tables is hard work, but never boring!

    If it comes to Plan B, that just might be motivation to this pirate crew off the ground...if you don't mind company that is!  I'd suggest running for office as a career choice, but I know you're too smart for that mess;)

    Parent

    I'd love the company! (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:18:22 PM EST
    It might be hard to grow vegetables on a boat, but I'll trade eating worms for catching fish.

    I think you need to be rich to run for office.  Or in some way have the personality traits of a cult leader so people throw money at you.

    Plus, someone will figure out that I've been posting on this blog and I'm sure I've written a few things here that make me totally unelectable.  Then again, Michelle Bachmann is an elected official, so you never know...

    Parent

    However, (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:42:14 PM EST
    the Republic of Zorba can grow vegetables, as well as supply venison.  The pirate crew already has plans to visit up here on occasion to replenish their stocks.  Bring fish.   ;-)

    Parent
    Michelle B... (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:24:33 PM EST
    case in point, only psychopaths want those jobs, and you are no psychopath.

    Parent
    hey now! (none / 0) (#54)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:29:07 PM EST
    My grandfather ran for office once.  Course he lost, in the primary, to someone who got crushed in the general election.

    I do still believe that some people go into it for the public service... He was a bit nutso, but mostly in a good way.

    Parent

    Some do... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:37:24 PM EST
    but they never win, or if they somehow win they never last;)

    Parent
    Best of luck to you, CST! (none / 0) (#37)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:57:56 PM EST
    Congratulations (none / 0) (#104)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:51:44 PM EST
    and good luck.  This is quite an adventure!

    Parent
    Good morning, Vietnam! (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:57:50 PM EST
    oculus, did you ever get to Dien Bien Phu when you were over here? We visited the Vietnamese memorial to the battle yesterday, and it was our first gargantuan sculpture of the heroic proletarian soldiers defending the homeland against the capitalist Western infidels. It's appropriately named "The Monument of Victory," and is mounted on a hillside overlooking the city, and is reached via a wide avenue and grand staircase that everyone else declined to climb, save for my eldest and me. The view from the top was worth it, though.

    I have to say that I've enjoyed Dien Bien Phu immensely. It's a beautiful city with surprisingly colorful architecture and rooftops, and the fierce battle that took place in early 1954 provides a fascinating historical backdrop.

    Honestly, one has to wonder what French Gen. Henri Navarre was thinking back in Nov. 1953, when he order the siezure by aerial assault of such a strategic but terribly remote locale in northwestern Vietnam, near the Laotian border. This city seems a rather curious place to build a major fortified military installation -- it's in the middle of a wide, long valley that's completely surrounded on all four sides by rugged hills and dense jungle.

    In retrospect, Navarre could not have chosen a more militarily untenable and inhospitable site to lure the Viet Minh into what he believed would be an unequal battle. The military concept of the fortified airhead may have worked to the French advantage at the Battle of Na San in Dec. 1952 -- but Na San Air Base was located in the flat lowlands of the upper Red River delta, and not in the rugged highlands to the west, far from available French reinforcements.

    Clearly, Dien Bien Phu could be -- and of course, subsequently were -- easily isolated from the French High Command and potential reinforcements in Hanoi, and its garrison in the valley would subsequently be reduced by Viet Minh forces and artillery operating from the surrounding highlands, almost at their leisure.

    Once the Viet Minh commander, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, had rendered the valley's three airfields inoperable through concentrated shellfire from the hills, the thousands of French troops concentrated here in Dien Bien Valley were almost entirely at their mercy. Aerial drops of both men and supplies from French bases at Hanoi proved wholly inadequate to the task of reprovisioning and sustaining the garrison; most of these air-dropped supplies fell instead into enemy hands.

    Nevertheless, the French garrison at Dien Bien Phu fought bravely to the bitter end and died particularly hard, as our local guides took great pains to point out. They inflicting horrific losses on Gen. Giap's attacking Viet Minh forces during the protracted three-month siege, before the base finally fell to a Viet Minh infantry assault in early May 1954. Nearly 12,000 French troops were taken prisoner; over half of them were wounded.

    We fly back to Hanoi later this afternoon, about a 40-minute flight. So close for us, yet for the French, so far ...

    Aloha.

    We did not. You will see General Giap's (none / 0) (#76)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:06:38 PM EST
    house in Hanoi.  Near the embalmed Ho.  

    Parent
    More of our people killed this week in Afg (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:46:31 PM EST
    Does the establishment care at all about our people being killed in action in Afg? What is the point of the Afg war?

    Here are a few of the recent ones. There are more. A steady 5 - 6 per week since the weather got warmer.

    Pfc. Jarrod A. Lallier, 20, of Spokane, Wash., died June 18 in Zharay, Kandahar province, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when individuals in Afghan Police uniforms turned their weapons against his unit.  He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, N.C.

    ------------

    They died in Panjwa'l, Kandahar province, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when insurgents attacked their unit with an improvised explosive device.  They were assigned to the 18th Engineer Company, 1st Battalion, 37th Field Artillery Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Wash.

                Killed were:

                Sgt. Joseph M. Lilly, 25, of Flint, Mich., who died June 14, and

                Spc. Trevor A. Pinnick, 20, of Lawrenceville, Ill., who died June 12.


    I think that every time I see the local (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:00:26 PM EST
    paper's reporting of deaths of Camp Pendleton-based Marines.  

    Parent
    and who knows how many wounded (none / 0) (#117)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:06:36 PM EST
    I just makes no sense. Let India and other countries in the region deal with Pakistan. Use trade and immigration sanctions against countries that have nuclear weapons programs.


    Parent
    We are preparing to leave (none / 0) (#135)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:56:43 PM EST
    The ROE have changed to reenforce the awareness in the Afghan forces that they must stand up now.  We aren't "fighting" anymore, but many soldiers are angry saying that the ROE don't even allow them to defend themselves.  I don't know any of the hows or why on that though because ROE are classified.  It is very dangerous for our soldiers in Afghanistan at this moment because of that dynamic.  It is what they do though Steve, this is a mission about creating stability.  I don't know if it will ultimately go down in history as succeeding or failing but we all care when any of us are killed serving.  Just like I care when police officers are killed serving.  Our soldiers are acting much like police officers at this time, and it is dangerous as hell.

    Parent
    Sorry..reinforce (none / 0) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:57:27 PM EST
    This'll bum you out... (none / 0) (#156)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:45:50 PM EST
    Government job spec floating around that my outfit is quoting for a buncha water heaters. Destination?  Some base in Afghanistan. And these things float around for months or years before they pop.

    Doesn't look like we're leaving anytime soon.  

    And to answer your question...without a draft, nobody cares.  

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by sj on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:50:11 PM EST
    because when research doesn't support a position there's no reason to adapt.  Just accuse "leftists" of not caring and don't bother to put in any work.  

    And another GZ obsessor.  Because there was no world before that, I guess.

    like the left did not obsess over GZ (2.00 / 0) (#133)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:55:55 PM EST
    "... And another GZ obsessor.  Because there was no world before that, I guess. ..."

    It is the left that whipped itself into a frenzy during the early days of the Zimmerman case. They had zero regard for the rights of Zimmerman.

    But hey, I see the day coming soon where the US breaks apart and reorganizes along EU lines. Where responsible states are able to control immigration and foreign trade. And unions of states establish their own currency. At that point, no more arguing between left and right.

    Parent

    "The left" "The left" (5.00 / 0) (#150)
    by sj on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:28:58 PM EST
    oy.  I've been a commenter here long before anybody ever heard of GZ, and I will be here long after.

    Unless I'm annoyed into saying something really indiscreet and get myself banned, or TL ceases to exist.  

    "The left" "The left" "The left" "TalkLeft" "TalkLeft" "TalkLeft"

    Oftentimes arguing about left and right is simply an excuse to avoid critical thinking.  Compartments are so much easier, yes/no?

    Parent

    which leftist thinks GZ should be free? (2.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:57:32 PM EST
    "... Oftentimes arguing about left and right is simply an excuse to avoid critical thinking.  Compartments are so much easier, yes/no? ..."

    But the left is very monolithic. What leftist thinks global warming is not something to be concerned about? What leftist in the US thinks immigration is harming the environment by causing population growth and should be halted? Which leftist thinks George Zimmerman is being railroaded by the establishment and should be freed?

    Parent

    I see. (5.00 / 4) (#167)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:12:12 PM EST
    "The left is very monolithic," huh?

    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
    -- John Adams (1735-1826), 2nd President of the United States

    Excuse me, but do you even bother to actually READ the various comments offered by others on TalkLeft posts?

    There are myriad examples of divergent and differing opinions, just in this thread alone.

    Please take your FoxNewsSpeak someplace else. That dog ain't gonna hunt here, trust me.

    Parent

    I stated specifics where the left is monolithic (2.00 / 0) (#169)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:18:54 PM EST
    "... Excuse me, but do you even bother to actually READ the various comments offered by others on TalkLeft posts? ..."

    respond to the specifics that I posted. You want more examples of the monolithic left? What leftist believes that a country can grow its economy by balancing its budget? What leftist thinks China should be held accountable for the North Korean nuclear weapons program and the terrible treatment of the NK people?


    Parent

    Charles? (5.00 / 0) (#171)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:24:21 PM EST
    Charles Krauthammer -- is that really you?

    Parent
    not chuck (2.00 / 0) (#172)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:26:57 PM EST
    I do not think Chuck favors increasing tariffs on Chinese imports until the US has balanced foreign trade. And I am sure he does not want to eliminate foreign aid to Israel and Egypt!


    Parent
    Time for humor (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:16:30 PM EST
    Josh and that new Tropico 4 game is a hoot.  And I'm a little intimidated because Josh has learned a lot about politics from it in a better way than I could have taught him.

    He was going off this weekend though about how the Nationalists drive him nuts and hippies drive him nuts.  He built a botanical garden to make the hippies happy he says.  Then a volcano erupted and burned it down.  It also destroyed his precious metal mines and he didn't have enough money to repair them.  He made a deal with the United States to import precious metals, make jewelry, and send it back to the states....trying to feed his people and earn their way toward repairing their own mines.  But that really upset the Nationalists he says.  And the hippies protest and protest with their botanical garden burnt down.

    He says the rebels broke into his home and almost assassinated him and his only friends are the Communists.  But he looks at me gravely and tells me that he can't go full Communist.  There were some protesters though protesting poor wages, and when he decided that he had had enough he arrested them.

    He had two old abandoned Forts, one at sea level and one tucked away in the Mtns.  He turned the sea level one into a museum and the one in the Mtns into a secret prison.  He sent his wage protesters there for awhile.

    I asked him if they were linked to the rebels that attacked him and he said no.  Then I couldn't help it, I said, "Holy Cow, so you took all of your anger and frustration out on them?"  And he gets frustrated and says, "Mom, that is what happens when you are a dictator.  You wake up one morning and you are acting like a dictator."

    He also says he has deep sympathy for President Obama though, because trying to keep everyone happy is impossible.

    You know, one of my mother's regrets, ... (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:48:59 PM EST
    ... a personal secret which she held for 48 years and finally revealed to us just the other day while we were in Hue (we're in Vietnam right now), was that she did not publicly release my father's official papers contemporaneously to his Feb. 1964 death in Saigon.

    In his reports to the Pentagon, my father was apparently highly critical of MACV's (Military Assistance Command - Vietnam) then-current efforts to prop up the merry-go-round of wobbly South Vietnamese military regimes, and lamented to his superiors, specifically Gen. Bruce Myers (commander of USMC Force Recon) and Gen. Wallace Greene, his own direct role in the Nov. 1963 overthrow of then-President Ngo Dinh Diem.

    As a bit of background, my father was a USMC officer and counter-insugency expert, and was serving as the senior U.S. military advisor to the 4th Vietnamese Marine Battalion, which at the time was operating in the Mekong Delta, just to the south of Saigon.

    According to my mother, his orders -- which apparently came direct from the Pentagon -- directed that on the morning of Nov. 2, 1963 he was to lead that battalion into Saigon itself, position the troops around the presidential palace, and then withdraw personally to the safety of the nearby U.S. Embassy for diplomatic cover, as the 4th Battalion commenced its assault on the palace.

    President Diem and his brother escaped the South Vietnamese Marines' attack on the palace, but they were subsequently captured the following day in the province of Cholon (outside Saigon) by ARVN troops, and then summarily executed in the rear of a military transport vehicle by a man named Nguyen Van Nhung, an ARVN officer who was a personal acquaintance of my father.

    From his embassy refuge, my father then sent the original copies of those orders via parcel post to my mother for safekeeping -- as a sort of C.Y.A. measure, I guess.

    Four months later, good military wife that she was, at her own parents' recommendation and insistence, my mother dutifully burned my father's orders and all of his papers in the fireplace of my grandparents' house in Pasadena, three weeks after he was killed in a Viet Cong terrorist raid in Feb. 1964.

    How different everything might have been, she wondered to us, had she not listened to my grandfather and grandmother. How much grief could have possibly been avoided, had she instead released those papers to the media, disclosing my father's key participatory role in the overthrow of South Vietnam's first president, a man who was ostensibly an American ally -- a coup d'etat that American officials had strenuously denied orchestrating at the time.

    So, don't be so quick to readily accept our government's contentions that whistleblowing compromises national security. Nine times out of ten, such whistleblowing exposes nothing more than clumsy attempts to cover up what otherwise should rightly be considered national embarrassments.

    Aloha.

    You don't know any specifics, but are (5.00 / 0) (#161)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:59:11 PM EST
    comfortable laying it off to the demons that are "the left."  Not exactly a winning argument - at least not here.  

    Perhaps you can take some comfort in knowing that your position puts you in good company with President Obama, who has been relentless in pursuing all manner of government representatives who believe the people have a right to know what the hell their government is up to.  On the other hand, perhaps that makes you want to run screaming into the night, but it's not going to change the fact that your position is also Obama's.

    It is my opinion that you really have no idea what "the left" stands for, believes, or has been fighting for for lo, these many years.  And I say this as someone who is as liberal as it is possible to be, and knows the difference between left and right.

    As for George Zimmerman, he shot and killed someone.  Call me crazy, but I believe the taking of a life is at least deserving of a process meant to ensure that that action was justified.  At the moment, you know and I know that he's sitting in jail because he and those speaking on his behalf were less-than-forthcoming with the court about his assets.

    If you're going to hold your own here with what are predominantly "leftist" commenters, I would seriously suggest you make an effort to come up with arguments that don't sound like right wing talking points.

     

    reply to specifics (2.00 / 0) (#166)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:11:11 PM EST
    the only way to have a successful argument is if both parties respond to specifics in the assertions of the other. GZ was attacked by TM and he defended himself. All the evidence indicates that. Yet the government wants him in jail to appease the mob. If the left believed in individual liberty and justice it would demand GZ be freed and the charges dropped.


    Parent
    So, you're going to ignore your (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:45:00 PM EST
    failure to supply any specifics to your claim about all the lives endangered by the Wikileaks revelations, and go back to the Zimmerman situation.  Aren't there enough threads on that subject to keep you happy?

    There are witness statements as to a only a very small segment of the entire situation between Zimmerman and Martin, and yet, you have no problem unequivocally deciding that Zimmerman was attacked and defended himself.

    Okay, then - who needs an actual system of justice, when there are people like you who think they can decide - without even all the facts - what really happened?  Talk to me about "individual liberty" if that's your son or brother; we both know your notion of "justice" would undergo an amazing transformation.

    The last person I am going to take advice from on what I, as a "leftist," have to believe in is someone who is as firmly rooted in right-wing ideology as you are.

    Parent

    no witnesses because no one wanted to help (2.00 / 0) (#179)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:54:13 PM EST
    on the wikileaks thread I posted from the start I have no specifics but it seem obvious that when you dump all that classified info with names unredacted that people are going to get harmed.

    We have all the evidence re: GZ and TM. No one was willing to respond to the cries for help so there are no witnesses. All the physical evidence supports Zimmermans account of the struggle. And he answered all the questions of the police the night of the shooting. Yet the left still wants him in jail and on trial where an intimidated jury could vote to convict.


    Parent

    Have you seen all the evidence? (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:39:05 PM EST
    I myself am waiting for the trial. The jury will not be intimidated, I assure you. Have you been to Central Florida?

    Parent
    No, he hasn't seen all of the evidence. That's (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by Angel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:59:26 PM EST
    why I am continually perplexed by all of these people posting that they know exactly what happened that night.  Remarkable, isn't it?

    Parent
    OT (none / 0) (#202)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:15:24 PM EST
    but I have friend who just moved to Central FL. How is the economic climate there? Her husband has a job but she will have to find one there locally. Thanks in advance for any answer.

    Parent
    Rick Scott (R) and Angela Corey (R) ... (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:15:24 PM EST
    ... are "the left".

    Heh.

    Parent

    Against my better judgement..... (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:29:33 PM EST
    Oh never mind, have a good evening. Rest your fevered brain.

    Parent
    I searched for those terms (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Makarov on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:41:41 PM EST
    and came up with several articles in mid-2010 speculating there would be killings, specifically by the Taliban against Afghan 'informers'.

    In November 2010, found mid-page 1 in that google search, McClatchy had a piece stating:

    U.S. officials concede that they have no evidence to date that the documents led to anyone's death.

    Officials may be overstating the damage from WikiLeaks

    This was months after the release of both Afghan and Iraqi 'war files', and after State Dept cables began to be, very slowly at first, released.

    I will add one thing about this topic. I have a relative that works for the Dept of Defense. DOD was very aggressive disseminating to its own employees speculation  about how various WikiLeaks releases would lead to the death of 'innocents' and informants. If you work for DOD, or otherwise receive some of the emails and announcements my relative does, it wouldn't surprise me if you believe these things.

    Not having personally viewed said material, I choose to rely on published media accounts. To date, I haven't seen a report of one death due in part or whole to WikiLeaks releases. It's also important to note that in the case of the three largest, major releases - Afgan War, Iraqi War, and State Dept cables - WikiLeaks contact the US government and offered the opportunity to edit documents prior to release to protect the identities of informants and other innocents. All of WikiLeaks' offers were rebuffed.

    Do some research, instead (5.00 / 2) (#184)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:34:38 PM EST
    of mouthing rightwing talking points.  Enforcement Discretion is a classic, accepted, and--over the years--used as policy by the chief executive & his departments/agencies.  

    And, after you have researched the legal application of Enforcement Discretion, kindly inform us what your studies showed, with citations or examples, and whether you still make what is a baseless claim.

    Either way it obviously sends the signal (none / 0) (#204)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:20:37 PM EST
    that the Prez doesn't have to follow the law.

    Hey, that's okay!

    If he's your Dictator.

    Parent

    Oops (none / 0) (#4)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:10:37 PM EST
    The Times is reporting that a new biography of Obama by David Maraniss of The Washington Post, "Barack Obama:The Story",  reveals that a few of the tales told by Obama in his books about himself skew in varying degrees from the truth.

    (Maraniss) notes that the story about the death of Mr. Obama's step-grandfather -- allegedly killed while fighting Dutch troops in Indonesia -- was "a concocted myth in almost all respects." Mr. Maraniss writes that he died trying to hang drapes.

    Oh well - fighting Dutch troops in the Indonesian War of Independence obviously bears a strong resemblance to hanging drapes.

    After (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:59:32 PM EST
    having seen Obama in action over the last four years or so should this surprise you? It certainly does not surprise me.

    Parent
    As I recall, Pres. Obama admitted long (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:09:42 PM EST
    ago that some of the people he wrote about in his books were composites.  

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:13:51 PM EST
    that is the jumping off point to begin with and then all the "embellishing" that has gone on since should make this a no-brainer in my book.

    Parent
    Oh, honestly! (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:05:56 PM EST
    Obama was in Indonesia when he was a young child between the ages of six and ten, and Dreams of My Father was written three decades later, when he was an adult.

    Are you seriously going to take a narrative borne in part of childhood memories, and then criticize it because it contains third-party hearsay that may not be exactly factual?

    Your Obama-bashing is getting really tedious.

    Parent

    I see the point, but (5.00 / 6) (#89)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:28:19 PM EST
    it fails, because a Columbia- and Harvard-educated and law school-trained person could be expected to make the distinction between documented records -- he could have done research, as he was trained to do -- and hearsay/family lore/myth.  And he could have been more consistent in whether this book was an impressionistic dreamscape or autobiography.  

    He did, after all, often claim it was the latter -- and did so in his adulthood.  That opened it up to judgments of his assertions.

    By the way, the least criticism apparently is aimed at his writings about the few years that you excuse, from what I've read now in quite a few reviews of Maraniss's research on Obama's statements on later years, when he was far from a toddler.  

    And the excuse that you give is not going to carry any weight at all about the next book.  So better explanations had best be made ready!

    Parent

    I have to ask (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:04:13 PM EST
    this question. Is David Maraniss the appointed biographer of Democratic presidents because IIRC he was the one that wrote "first in his class" about Bill Clinton and I don't think that he wrote a biography of W did he?

    Parent
    Assigned by the WaPo (none / 0) (#118)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:06:58 PM EST
    Donald, it's a swift boating maneuver (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Farmboy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:59:52 PM EST
    Discrediting Obama on one thing about his life - the alleged validity of a story he was told as a child - is used to discredit the legitimacy of his entire presidency.

    And as a bonus, for some this sort of smear follows the narrative of what they already "knew" about Obama: he came from a broken home, he's lived in foreign places with strange names, he ate a dog, etc. To these people this is more proof that he's "the other" and doesn't deserve or hasn't earned the things he has.

    Parent

    Nonsense ! (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by samsguy18 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:09:36 PM EST
    The MSM and Obama himself fabricated and exaggerated his resume and his past. Ask any law professor at the University of Chicago.....who can speak off the record.....Obama was a lecturer not an expert on Constitutional law.....his story about his mother's medical insurance problems that brought him so much sympathy was untrue....

    Parent
    Fascinating. So, Fox News and Obama worked (none / 0) (#148)
    by Farmboy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:21:05 PM EST
    together to create a fabricated life story for him? And you possess secret knowledge about his teaching career, only available from those who remain anonymous? And his mother wasn't refused disability insurance because her cancer, which made her unable to work, was called a pre-existing condition when she filed?

    Thanks for clearing all that up.

    Parent

    Ann Dunham (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:32:08 PM EST
    According to a biogrpahy of her (not Fox News), DID have insurance while she was battling cancer and living in Indonesia. When she came back to the states, all she had to pay were deductibles and uncovered expenses.  She tried to get her employer-based disability insurance (CIGNA) to pay for her uncovered expenses because they said it was a preiexsiting condition.

    But that wasn't how the campaign spun it - it was spun as his mother had this horrible disease and was denied insurance.  Not true.

    Parent

    Uh, no. (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:01:32 PM EST
    That's not what I remember. Barack Obama himself noted during the health care debate that his mother was fighting with her own insurance carrier regarding the extent of her existing coverage, at the same time she was battling her disease.

    Further, per former CIGNA executive Wendell Potter, who was discussing said biography:

    "In August 1995, according to Janny Scott's book, 'A Singular Woman,' [Ann Dunham] received a letter from the CIGNA subsidiary that had been hired by her employer to provide short-term disability benefits. Dunham assumed the company would reimburse her for expenses related to her treatment for uterine cancer.

    "The letter from CIGNA dashed her hopes. The company was refusing to pay because it had reason to believe the cancer had started before she enrolled in the policy. Scott wrote that the company based its decision on notes it obtained from a gynecologist Dunham had seen months earlier for abdominal pain.

    "Even though the doctor did not tell Dunham she might have cancer, she made a note in Dunham's medical record that the pain she was experiencing might be the result of a malignancy.

    "Scott wrote that while undergoing chemotherapy and dealing with the accompanying hair loss and sickness, Dunham had to devote enormous amounts of time communicating with CIGNA in an effort to get the company to reconsider.

    "Making no headway on her own, she finally informed the company she was turning over her case to 'my son and attorney, Barack Obama.'"

    So, sorry, but I fail to recall Obama himself or his campaign ever having claimed that she either had no insurance or was denied insurance. Perhaps you may be conflating other people's statements in the news media on the matter, with what the president himself actually said about it.

    Parent

    Sorry, Donald, but you're in (5.00 / 3) (#190)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:12:15 PM EST
    revisionist-history land...

    From Glenn Kessler at the WaPo, on the Obama film, `The Road We've Traveled:' A misleading account of Obama's mother and her insurance dispute:

    During the 2008 campaign, Obama frequently suggested his mother had to fight with her health-insurance company for treatment of her cancer because it considered her disease to be a pre-existing condition. In one of the presidential debates with GOP rival John McCain, Obama said:

    "For my mother to die of cancer at the age of 53 and have to spend the last months of her life in the hospital room arguing with insurance companies because they're saying that this may be a pre-existing condition and they don't have to pay her treatment, there's something fundamentally wrong about that."

    But then earlier this year, journalist Janny Scott cast serious doubt on this version of events in her excellent biography, "A Singular Woman: The Untold Story of Barack Obama's mother." Scott reviewed letters from Dunham to the CIGNA insurance company, and revealed the dispute was over disability coverage, not health insurance coverage (see pages 335-339).

    [snip]

    Scott writes that Dunham, who died in 1995 of uterine and ovarian cancer, had health insurance that "covered most of the costs of her medical treatment...The hospital billed her insurance company directly, leaving Ann to pay only the deductible and any uncovered expenses, which, she said, came to several hundred dollars a month."

    [snip]

    When Scott's book was published, the White House did not dispute her account. "The president has told this story based on his recollection of events that took place more than 15 years ago," a spokesman said.

    [snip]

    In the end, the impression left by the film, especially if you watch it (go to the 8:45 mark), is very similar to Obama's 2008 campaign rhetoric: His mother was denied health-insurance coverage, draining her resources, and with better coverage she might have lived longer. The film suggests this experience helped inspire the president to keep fighting for the health care law, even in the face of advice from aides that he accept a less-than-satisfactory compromise.  

    Obama's representation of his mother's situation got three "Pinocchio's" which is not exactly an homage to truthfulness.

    Parent

    Rather (none / 0) (#152)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:33:04 PM EST
    She tried to get her uncovered expenses paid for by her employer-based disability insurance plan, and they denied her because they said the cancer was pre-existing.

    Parent
    It was (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:44:24 PM EST
    well documented that he was just an instructor and not a professor. As a matter of fact iirc, the Univ. of Chicago did a press release stating just that.

    Parent
    I thought Univ. of Chic. retroactively (none / 0) (#158)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:50:36 PM EST
    promoted him from instructor to [p]rofessor.  Adam B at DK took a class from him and wrote a diary about it.  

    Parent
    They might have (none / 0) (#159)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:56:29 PM EST
    done it retroactively but I'm pretty sure when Adam took a class from him, he was an instructor not a professor. I understood it to be that Obama did not want to be a professor and had refused that from the U of C.

    Parent
    I think we agree. (none / 0) (#162)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:01:37 PM EST
    Farmboy (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by samsguy18 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:44:44 PM EST
    His teaching career was never a secret .....

    Parent
    Why do you hate Obama so much???? (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:22:18 PM EST
    If you (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:58:10 PM EST
    are directing your question to me, I would answer that I don't hate Obama at all.

    But he is in a position of great power, and I think we should know who we are dealing with.

    And by his actions shall we know him.


    Parent

    The perfect is always ... (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:00:13 PM EST
    ... the enemy of the good, or at least nominally decent. Why he would think Romney to somehow be better, I haven't the slightest clue.

    Parent
    If you (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:11:55 PM EST
    think I am talking about Romney, I'm sorry for you.

    Disliking dishonesty from Obama does not translate into support for Romney.

    If you need to construct a straw man, it reveals a rather shallow commitment to the person you are supporting.

    Enumerate Obama's many virtues as you see them.
    That would be a more honest and productive approach imo.

    Parent

    Discussing such matters with you ... (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:02:53 PM EST
    ... is like, to paraphrase Barney Frank, talking to an empty dining room chair. I don't claim to be an expert on Barack Obama -- and for that matter, neither should you.

    Further, we're in a presidential election year with potentially and profoundly adverse consequences should Romney and the GOP gain control -- and yet once again, here you are, repeatedly talking down a candidate whom this site's founder and host has publicly endorsed for re-election. By her own definition, that makes you a chatterer.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Your question was apt (none / 0) (#174)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:38:53 PM EST
    But the only answer is:
    He doesn't have an "R" after his name.

    Progressives (heck, independents and moderates of all types) have been forced to play this game of "which one is more evil" for the last 3 elections now.

    It's good to see some are heartily sick of it.

    Parent

    Executive Powers (none / 0) (#8)
    by gaf on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:22:31 PM EST
    I want to know BTD and Jeralyn's opinion on use of executive powers by Obama in the immigration thing. Is this good/bad from a precedent point of view?

    Others also (none / 0) (#10)
    by gaf on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:23:27 PM EST
    Other people's opinion on this also welcome :-)

    I don't much about this topic.


    Parent

    Here's Digby's opinion: (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:21:02 PM EST
    The use of Enforcement Discretion (none / 0) (#46)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:13:10 PM EST
    is nothing new. It is a concept & implementation of prioritization of resources, etc....not Executive Order.

    Enforcement Discretion, via policy statement or directive or paper, sets out circumstances & factors to consider when deciding whether to take enforcement action. At EPA, the penalty policies published & employed over the years spelled out factors to be used in both proposing and settling penalty cases (and whether to seek a penalty in the first place.)  So far as I know most Departments & Agencies follow similar approaches, because--in reality--the government cannot direct the resources to respond to every act.  $$$ and time are limited always; and, circumstances differ. Different equitable circumstances particularly call out for a prioritizing scheme. (In a related matter, refer to the long ago stated policy in various jurisdictions about limited marijuana personal use & enforcement.)

    My understanding is that the President carefully spoke about applicability of his policy guidelines and not guarantees in each case. That is significant.

    BTW, in my own 30 years with the federal government, the Enforcement Discretion approach as a pragmatic implentation of various Congressional authorizations existed either explicitly or indirectly under each President's term that I witnessed since the 1970s.  In this case, the President "published" his policy for maximum coverage for multiple reasons.

    Parent

    One of the U.S. Attorneys "W" fired (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:26:43 PM EST
    had that position here.  Later she spoke to a group of lawyers.  One of the subjects was directives to her from D.C. about what types of cases to prosecute and what types to leave to D.A.'s office or City Attorney.  Examples:  small amounts of marijuana crossing the border, and immigration issues not tied to an underlying crime.  

    Parent
    I remember something that Bush was (none / 0) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:53:15 PM EST
    not doing... and the gasps of horror that came from several commentators right here.

    Double standards anyone??

    Parent

    Specifics? (none / 0) (#185)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:35:46 PM EST
    Something to do with him signing while saying (none / 0) (#203)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:18:52 PM EST
    he would not  do something in the law. Everyone agreed that he couldn't do that....

    Parent
    According to multiple media reports, (none / 0) (#61)
    by Makarov on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:39:43 PM EST
    Julian Assange has taken refuge in the Ecuadoran embassy in London, and is seeking political asylum.

    Ecuador has previously offered residency to Assange in 2010, following the release of US State Dept cables via Wikileaks.

    Wow... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:45:07 PM EST
    I hope Ecuador lives up to the previous offer, I'm sure the State Dept. is putting the screws to them as we type.

    Parent
    Why is Russia allowed to meddle in Syria? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:42:07 PM EST
    So why is the world community and establishment media silent on the blatant meddling by Iran, Russia and China in the affairs of Syria?  And what special deal is Obama going to cut with "Vladimir" after his election in November?


    Why is Great Britain meddling with (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:58:33 PM EST
    Russia's ship carrying military hardware to Syria? Such a volatile situation.  

    Parent
    British insurance carrier (none / 0) (#130)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:42:11 PM EST
     cancelled coverage on that ship, and a half dozen more, because of the embargo against weapons shipments to Syria. Also, it was stopped in British waters in which they have a complete right to set the rules as to what is allowed to be transported.

    BTW, the stopped ship was carrying 2 attack helicopters, the kind Syria has used to mow down hundreds of civilians.


    Parent

    surely many shipments are getting to Syria (none / 0) (#165)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:04:16 PM EST
    Consider how many shipments are getting to the Syrian government. Esp with the countries of the world not daring to be critical of Russia and China.  The West is so weak due to its deficit spending. It dares not anger China.

    Parent
    ... a frustrated corporate hedge fund groupie:

    Slate | June 19, 2012
    Strategic Mumblespeak: Er, UVA's Teresa Sullivan was fired for what? -- "In the 19th century, robber barons started their own private universities when they were not satisfied with those already available. But Leland Stanford never assumed his university should be run like his railroad empire. Andrew Carnegie did not design his institute in Pittsburgh to resemble his steel company. The University of Chicago, John D. Rockefeller's dream come true, assumed neither his stern Baptist values nor his monopolistic strategies. That's because for all their faults, Stanford, Carnegie, and Rockefeller knew what they didn't know. [...] On Thursday night, a hedge fund billionaire, self-styled intellectual, 'radical moderate,' philanthropist, former Goldman Sachs partner, and general bon vivant named Peter Kiernan resigned abruptly from the foundation board of the Darden School of Business at the University of Virginia. He had embarrassed himself by writing an email claiming to have engineered the dismissal of the university president, Teresa Sullivan, ousted by a surprise vote a few days earlier. The events at UVA raise important questions about the future of higher education, the soul of the academic project, and the way we fund important public services."

    Is this what we have to look forward to now -- corporate coups d'etat at our public universities?

    actually (none / 0) (#144)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:11:47 PM EST
    Andrew Carnegie did design his institute in Pittsburgh to resemble his steel company.  There are sloped floors in all the old buildings, so that if the school failed it could easily be converted into an assembly line/factory.

    I realize that's not what you're discussing here but just thought it was interesting.

    Parent

    Actually, that IS interesting. (none / 0) (#170)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:19:06 PM EST
    Well, Donald, they own the government in many ways (none / 0) (#149)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:21:08 PM EST
    Why SHOULDN'T they own the schools?

    I remember reading a story about Corporate wars involving mercenary armies due to prostrate governments back in the late 1970's when I was just a snot-nosed bookish kid of about ten. At the time, I regarded such things as unlikely and unwanted. Well, much as I still don't want it, that is looking more and more like both the present -and the immediate future.

    Parent

    so long (none / 0) (#173)
    by Steve27 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:32:39 PM EST
    I post specifics and you flee.  Here is a disagreement I have with the right. I think the supreme court should not overturn obama care. Once the constitution was amended to allow the federal income tax I think the commerce clause was superceded. The federal tax code can be used to impose every kind of economic coercion on the public. Saying that the constitution prohibits the mandating of an expenditure by a citizen when it clearly allows tax deductions and variable tax rates of any kind is ridiculous.


    You're not worth the time. (none / 0) (#175)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:39:30 PM EST
    You're all over the map, flighting from topic to topic. China and Norht Korea, The Commernce Clause. The "monolithic left." Etc., etc., etc.

    Call me when you've finally learned to recognize the difference between "specifics" and unsupported contentions.

    Parent

    As we go over the top (none / 0) (#205)
    by SuzieTampa on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:35:13 PM EST
    in comments ... how about Assange facing his accusers in Sweden, or must women's rights always be peripheral to other issues?

    I voted for Obama and will vote for him again, as a lesser evil. But his distortions and those of his marketers have been astounding. Here are a couple of my favorites: He suggested that Hillary had no real foreign policy experience, and then nominated her as secretary of state. He and his supporters said Hillary would just be a replay of Bill Clinton's administration, and then Obama appoints many who served under BC.

    A tangent: I haven't read the books mentioned -- do any of them say what kind of cancer Ann Dunham had? Was it carcinoma or sarcoma? Was it ovarian cancer that spread to her uterus or vice versa, or 2 different types of cancer? In the cancer world, people would really like to know.