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Decision Day for Health Care Law

BTD will be on the radio (please join him), and I'll be getting ready for court when the Supreme Court releases its historic decision on the Affordable Care Act. The decision will be available on the court's website.

According to C-Span, these are the four issues:

  • Whether the court has jurisdiction over a tax law that has yet to take effect,
  • Whether the individual mandate is constitutional,
  • Whether the court can strike down only part of the law without striking down the law in its entirety,
  • And whether the law's extension of Medicaid is constitutional.

Put even simpler, the decision will address jurisdiction, the individual mandate, the fate of the rest of the law — and separately, the Medicaid provision.

For the legal-minded among you, check out ScotusBlog. It's plain English version (which maybe should be called plain English for lawyers) is here. Here are some potential scenarios in plain English as to the effects of the ruling should it go one way or the other.

Here's a thread to discuss all aspects of the decision and the potential effects -- legal, economic, political, and personal.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Reading Tea Leaves (5.00 / 7) (#4)
    by Lacy on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 07:37:00 AM EST
    On a limb to be sure, but I think maybe the reason Scalia was so snarling angry on Monday is that the ACA was going to make it through.

    You were right! (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:26:29 AM EST
    What a great insight.

    Ginsburg also said recently the decision was "contentious," and everybody thought she meant the liberal wing was angry.  But she had a little smile when she said it, so clearly she was referring to Scalia et al.

    Parent

    That's what I said too (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by lilburro on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:00:47 AM EST
    with no expectation of being right, however...

    Parent
    Looks like (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:09:52 AM EST
    It will go back before the court sometime after the Mandate kicks in???

    5-4 (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:18:38 AM EST
    With Chief Justice Roberts in the majority?

    I guess (none / 0) (#25)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:20:58 AM EST
    The Rache; Maddow fan club can't hate him anymore - he literally saved this bill.

    Parent
    Roberts has always been on the side of (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:06:47 AM EST
    corporations, and this is nothing if not a triumph for the parasitic human filth comprising America's health insurance industry.  30% and FU, suckers.

    Parent
    Roberts is a Corporatist who puts their interests (none / 0) (#187)
    by jawbone on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:16:52 PM EST
    first.  This is brought up from below:

    I suspect Roberts wrote the majority decision to

    by jawbone on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:32:33 PM EDT

    ensure there is language he can build on to attack other government social programs in the future.

    In the case of ObamaCare, aka RomneyCare, he probably fell on his sword to protect the interests of Big Private Insurance Companies.

    I think he also plans several cases ahead to get the court to where he wants it to go, somewhere between pre-Magna Carta and Gilded Age, in my humble acerbic and cynical opinion (imhaco).

    By taking this stand, he gives Romney and the R's a huge, easy target for attacks against Obama and, if what I suspect is correct, he's laying the basis for further tearing down of the national safety net programs. And anything which doesn't benefit Big Bidness and the wealthy.

    I'm concerned about what his long game is re: the Commerce Clause and also the mandate as tax. In the short run, he's thrown Romney a softball to hit out of the park. (Which Romney, being Romney, can whiff with his usual blathering, outright lies, and refusal to accept responsibility for his own RomneyCare in MA. But with enough money, he can blast Dems' ads off the airwaves.)


    Parent

    The Rachel Maddow fan club needs (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:08:31 PM EST
    to learn nuance.  Life is not so simplistic that it can be reduced to soundbytes and slogans.

    After all, Bush appointee Roberts just upheld Romneycare!

    Parent

    Medicaid expansion struck down. (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:21:48 AM EST
    Supremes say that states can opt-in to the expansion if they want, but it is unconstitutional for the feds to require it.

    Now, poor people, will you take the hint and die, please? If you don't we will make you choose between feeding your kids or paying that pesky "tax" if you don't have insurance.

    SC also upholds keeping kids on their parents' insurance.

    Not what I am reading on SCOTUSBlog (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:29:02 AM EST
    I'm reading the expansion was upheld, but that if States refuse to participate, they cannot be penalized by having their existing medicaid funds taken away.

    Parent
    How is that different from what I said? (none / 0) (#35)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:33:44 AM EST
    Yes, we used different words, but the end result is the same. Individual states may choose NOT to expand their Medicaid rolls,; the federal gov't cannot force them to opt-in.

    So, the requirement that Medicaid be expanded is struck down, no?

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:35:01 AM EST
    it was limited and "narrowed in scope"

    Parent
    What you say in your second comment (none / 0) (#38)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:37:04 AM EST
    sounds more like what I'm reading.  But it's not that Medicaid expansion itself was struck down.  Rather, that states who don't want to participate can refuse to do so without losing their existing medicaid subsidies.  

    Not saying that's a good thing, just trying to clarify.

    Parent

    So, if you would have been eligible for (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:04:35 AM EST
    Medicaid under the ACA rules, but you live in a state that refuses to participate in this expansion, you must purchase insurance and pay for it yourself or pay the "tax", right?

    So, those people are screwed. And all those progressives who, we have been told, held their noses and voted for/supported the ACA because of the Medicaid expansion, well, they've been punk'd. Yes?

    Parent

    Depends - I've lost track of some of the (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:26:50 AM EST
    details, but I believe there are subsidies, based on income, that are supposed to help people pay - I'm skeptical that that works as intended - and I think there are exceptions to the imposition of the tax that are also based on income.

    I think that the Medicaid ruling once again means that where one lives will determine whether one has the same access and affordability as everyone else.  People in poor states run by Republicans will be worse off than those in wealthier states run by Democrats.  Same as it ever was.

    Overall, I think the good parts of the law don't outweigh how the totality of it reinforces and entrenches some of the worst aspects of the private insurance system.

    Parent

    In the states that refuse to participate, yes. (none / 0) (#70)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:06:11 AM EST
    probably not (none / 0) (#101)
    by CST on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:25:36 AM EST
    they waive the mandate if they determine you can't afford insurance based on premium costs as a % of income.  If you would have qualified for medicaid, chances are you can't afford insurance.

    Parent
    Right, they likely won't have to pay the tax. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:28:50 AM EST
    They will just either have to purchase their own insurance (which they won't be able to afford) or be under/uninsured.

    Parent
    What the government determines... (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:33:22 AM EST
    you can afford and what you can actually afford are two very different things.

    When it comes to public assistance, the government uses some fuzzy f*ckin' math.

    Parent

    yea (none / 0) (#111)
    by CST on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:44:39 AM EST
    but I meant specifically those who would have qualified for the medicaid expansion - based on what the government determined.  So those people would probably not be affected by the mandate if their state chooses not to expand medicaid.

    Parent
    In reading the opinion, (none / 0) (#54)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:54:06 AM EST
    it appears that Kagan and Breyer joined Roberts in wanting to limit the Medicaid provisions this way.  Ginsburg and Sotomayor would not have limited it.

    Parent
    I think what is unconstitutional is for (none / 0) (#43)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:39:12 AM EST
    existing Medicaid funds to be withheld from states that choose not to expand.

    Parent
    All funds, yes, cannot be withheld (none / 0) (#163)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:11:27 PM EST
    but some can.  This already is seen as a victory by Walker in Wisconsin, where he vows to continue to not put in place the required plans by states.  He will work for the "November remedy," he says.

    That is, he still will be able to take some fed funds, while still refusing to fully abide by the requirements for the funding.  A weird ruling.

    Parent

    Well, all I can say is that CNN's (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:30:42 AM EST
    got to be a little embarrassed by their huge headline that read "STRUCK DOWN" and now says "UPHELD."

    There's a reason I trust ScotusBlog...

    "Dewey beats Truman" (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:33:14 AM EST
    You know that you wanted to see this (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:13:17 PM EST
    Kennedy Scalia Alito and Thomas (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:33:01 AM EST
    wanted the entire law struck down. "In our view, the entire Act before us is invalid in its entirety."

    Another example of why November is important.


    Looks like Larry Tribe (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:41:45 AM EST
    and Rbt Reich were among the small minority correctly predicting the Ct would substantially uphold ACA, even as Reich missed slightly saying it would be a 6-3 decision.

    I'm not entirely convinced this is a big winner politically for Obama, and his admin has done a lousy job to date selling it.  They will need to do better.

    Prof. Balkin at Yale (none / 0) (#115)
    by Peter G on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:45:48 AM EST
    proprietor of Balkinization, had it nailed all along - touting the taxing power.  An excellent site, although not for amateurs.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#142)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:44:44 AM EST
    that it's probably not much of a help with reelection but it has been fun to watch the heads of conservatives explode.

    Parent
    Cubicle talk... (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:01:29 AM EST
    Worry warts here in the office are convinced bossman is gonna cancel the company plan, pay the fine, and pocket the gravy...and the reasoning will be we're now eligible for Medicaid after paying our fine/tax.

    On second look it looks like bossman wouldn't even get fined, under 50 employees.

    If you are uninsured and pay the tax, you automatically get Medicaid right?  Or are some people gonna find they gotta pay the tax and still make too much per year to qualify for Medicaid, yet make too little to realistically afford private insurance?


    I you live in a state that chooses (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:08:28 AM EST
    not to expand its Medicaid program you may lose out.

     

    some people gonna find they gotta pay the tax and still make too much per year to qualify for Medicaid, yet make too little to realistically afford private insurance?

    That part of your comment sums it up. Are you too poor to buy an insurance plan on your own, but you live in a state that rejected the expansion? Too bad.

    Parent

    Um it's not just in states that reject the (none / 0) (#81)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:12:13 AM EST
    medicaid expansion, but also the fact that some working poor and lower middle class people might make too much to go on medicaid in the first place, but they'll still be taxed for insurance they can't afford.

    I won't blame them if they vote Obama out in November. He should have at least tried to do better.

    Parent

    Exactly. And, of course, (none / 0) (#90)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:16:48 AM EST
    remember that all it takes to fall into this category, for many people, is to lose one's job.  So, in addition to the people who are already actually in the category, there are lots more who fear they are one step away from it.  

    Parent
    Exodus from Red States? (none / 0) (#91)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:16:53 AM EST
    Should Blue States who expand Medicaid pull an Arizona and harass Red State refugees? ;)

    Parent
    Yep. Wisconsin is one (none / 0) (#200)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 02:28:02 PM EST
    as Walker just reiterated.

    That is not gonna help Obama there in November, when Walker is calling for "the November remedy."

    (Now, that the November remedy is Romney, who approved what this law is aka Romneycare, makes this so laughable, I know.  But who will be laughing then?)

    Parent

    kdog (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:16:41 AM EST
    Knowing your leanings...When in doubt on a Supreme Court decision, it's fairly safe to assume that if Scalia and Thomas are against something it's probably good for you in the long run.

    Parent
    Good rule of thumb... (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:20:46 AM EST
    otoh, when Roberts is for something it's probably better for corporations in the long run.

    Parent
    I respect Thomas more than any (none / 0) (#107)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:35:54 AM EST
    other SCOTUS justice, even though I usually disagree with his dissents.

    Want to know why?
    He's the most intellectually consistent of them all.

    The rest seem like they have a few issues that they are willing to bend their professed ideology for in order to get the outcome they desire. Not Thomas.

    Scalia, for instance, is not only inconsistent, he's downright hateful at times.

    Parent

    Interesting choice of words (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by sj on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:40:22 AM EST
    "Thomas" and "intellectually consistent".  Anything having a root word of "intellect" applied to Thomas is not something one sees very often.  "Consistent" I definitely will grant you.

    Parent
    Why is that worthy of respect? (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by Leopold on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:45:23 AM EST
    He's the most intellectually consistent of them all.

    The rest seem like they have a few issues that they are willing to bend their professed ideology for in order to get the outcome they desire.

    They are there to interpret the law, not vote consistently based on ideology. One hopes that a Supreme Court justice WILL be willing to accept counter arguments and change their mind.

    You seem to be saying that you respect him because he is a closed-minded ideologue who will not alter his dogmatic right-wing opinions whether they are legally viable or not.

    Parent

    Damn... (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:53:45 AM EST
    A person who can not see beyond his own beliefs is not worthy of anything but contempt, especially if that person in party to decisions that effect millions who do not share his same world view.

    And of course, his job is suppose to interpret the Constitution as it pertains to the case, mostly, not using his personal wants to make decisions.

    There is nothing respectable of a Supreme Court Justice who views everything through his own ideology, no matter the consistency.

    Parent

    Either you believe the Constitution (none / 0) (#160)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:08:25 PM EST
    means something, or you believe it means nothing /everything.

    When looked through Thomas's Constitutional lense not many things resolve into shades of gray.

    I can respect that.

    I've long been of the opinion we need either a new Constitution or major revisions to the one we have. Stretching and twisting things such as the commerce power just leads to abuses and more centralization of power.

    Parent

    All Judges (none / 0) (#130)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:10:45 AM EST
    On the SCOTUS have a professed ideology on how to interpret the Constitution.
    Most don't follow their professed ideology when it would inconvenience them in some way.

    You can rely on Thomas to go where he thinks the Constitution really leads EVEN IF you think he is wrong about his belief.

    Being intellectually consistent is actually a rather good thing for a Judge. It puts things out there in the open.

    Did anyone here doubt that Thomas and Scalia were going to vote against the ACA?

    On the other hand no one knew which way Kennedy would twist in the wind, although Roberts "defection" was surprising to some.

    Parent

    Could not disagree more. (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Leopold on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:12:40 PM EST
    The one deserving the most respect today is probably Roberts - who seems to have had the intellectual integrity to be able to listen to all arguments, ignore politics and ideology, and make an interpretation based on the Constitution. Even it is about a law that he may not like for ideological reasons. That makes him a true conservative, I suppose, which is what Republicans cannot stand.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:55:05 PM EST
    Most don't follow their professed ideology when it would inconvenience them in some way.

    It's why we expect more from a Supreme Court Justice then your average ideologue.  They aren't deciding Timmy's allowance, they are effecting millions of people with their decisions.

    But that's not the point, you actually used the word respectable to describe a man who does exactly the opposite of a Supreme Court Justice is suppose to do.  Which of course is leave the BS at the door and judge on the merits of the case independent of their own views/wants.

    Your kind of thinking is how we end up with ideologues on the court, you and many others think siding with their ideology is an admirable trait while a Justice deciding anything but your side is, what did you call Roberts vote, a defection.

    Why bother, you know, if we are just going to appoint people who always decide based on politics, any idiot (cough, Thomas, cough) can do that.  That's easy, one could probably even take a nap during oral arguments, or go 5 years without asking a question.

    Parent

    But (none / 0) (#190)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:28:29 PM EST
    Thomas did write 6 sentences in a separate dissent.

    Parent
    Wow. That's the equivalent of a dissertation (5.00 / 4) (#194)
    by Angel on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:35:05 PM EST
    coming from him.

    Parent
    Yes, and it (none / 0) (#192)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:33:46 PM EST
    just repeated what was already opined in the collective dissent. But, it was apparently his contribution.

    Parent
    You seem to forget what the job (none / 0) (#198)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 02:01:10 PM EST
    Of the Supreme Court is. It is to interpret the Constitution and to act as a check to the other two branches of Government. In short, it's not Clarence Thomases job to rule in such a way that the interests of what you consider "justice" are always enacted. Instead, it is his job to use his philosophy of the Constitutional interpretation honestly. That's all he has to do, and I'd argue he does it successfully, even if you think his philosophy on its own is incorrect.

    My argument is that Clarence Thomas has a philosophy about how the Constitution should be interpreted and he sticks to that philosophy. The other Justices are less consistent, and this makes it harder to trust whether they are acting for political or personal reasons rather than for the good of the country.

    Lastly , you might note I put "defection" in quotes indicating it was not necessarily a contention I agreed with.

    Parent

    So being consistent means Thomas is (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 02:36:12 PM EST
    always acting for the good of the country, and isn't acting from political or personal reasons?  Golly, I had no idea we were in the presence of such greatness...

    Interesting, because I would argue that such consistency probably means it is the personal and the political that are the driving forces behind his decisions, that he thinks the Constitution revolves around him.  But how nice for him, how much less stressful it must be to know that, no matter what, he's going to come down the same way, every time.

    Yes, "inconsistent" can mean someone is making the law fit an agenda, but it can also mean an ability to distance one's self from personal opinion to focus on a Constitution that is bigger than any one person's ideology.

    And let's not forget what "consistency" is, after all - the hobgoblin of little minds.

    Now, there's something I can agree with.


    Parent

    I have zero respect for Clarence Thomas. (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by Angel on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:48:40 AM EST
    Kdog (none / 0) (#72)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:07:10 AM EST
    That's one of the problems with this legislation:

    "Or are some people gonna find they gotta pay the tax and still make too much per year to qualify for Medicaid, yet make too little to realistically afford private insurance?"

    Some people I've seen talk as if this is a Universal Medical Care bill. It's not. If the Republicans take congress and/or the Presidency they'll work to scrap it anyway, but this bill has had tremendous issues from the get-go, because as has been often covered on this site, the President never really pushed for anything.

    Parent

    From a paper (none / 0) (#82)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:12:37 AM EST
    From Georgetown University:

    The ACA will make all legal residents under the age of 65 eligible for Medicaid if their family income is less than 133 percent of the federal poverty line. Low-wage workers with family incomes above 100 percent of the poverty line and whose employers don't provide insurance (or provide insurance that is deemed too expensive by ACA criteria) will be eligible to receive a federal subsidy to buy private insurance through a health exchange, as long as their family income is less than 400 percent of the poverty line.


    Parent
    And I don't know (none / 0) (#85)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:13:35 AM EST
    If that is based on the Medicaid expansion section - the paper was written 2 years ago.

    Parent
    Not the way I understand it (none / 0) (#87)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:14:58 AM EST
    "If you are uninsured and pay the tax, you automatically get Medicaid right?"

    If your boss cancels your insurance plan, you will then be able to participate in the famous "exchanges" to find your own insurance plan.  Depending on your income, the gummint will pay a pretty good chunk of the premiums for you.

    "Or are some people gonna find they gotta pay the tax and still make too much per year to qualify for Medicaid, yet make too little to realistically afford private insurance?"  Yes, but most people with income just over Medicaid eligibility will find the subsidized premiums cost them less than the tax penalty because of the subsidies, as i understand it.

    Your guys in the office should go look at the Kaiser Foundation Web site, which has a very nifty calculator for all this.

     

    Parent

    The next necessary step... (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:22:38 AM EST
    to make lemonade outta this is to raise the federal poverty levels into the realm of 2012 reality...like say doubling them.

    Parent
    Better would be to (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:24:23 AM EST
    lower medicare eligibility age.  

    Parent
    Yes, but (none / 0) (#95)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:18:43 AM EST
    as long as the family income is less than 400 percent of the poverty line.

    Parent
    Just tried the calculator out (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:24:40 AM EST
    You don't get much.

    For laughs, I put in some random numbers: $50,000 (in 2014 dollars) for a single person, age 30, with no employer insurance and a "Medium" regional cost factor.

    Here's what I get back:

    Note: Subsidies are only available for people purchasing coverage on their own in the Exchange (not through an employer). All individuals and families with incomes at or below 133% of the federal poverty level will be eligible for Medicaid. Others with higher incomes may also be eligible, depending on rules that vary by state.

    Projected income in 2014  $50,000
    435% of poverty

    Unsubsidized health insurance premium in 2014 adjusted for age $2752

    (Based on an age factor relative to a 40 year-old of: 0.76)

    Maximum % of income the person/family has to pay for the premium if eligible for a subsidy NONE

    Actual person/family required premium payment $2752
     (which equals 5.50% of income and covers 100% of the overall premium)

    Government tax credit $0

     (which covers 0% of the overall premium)

    Out-of-Pocket Costs  
    The maximum out-of-pocket costs the person/family will be responsible for in 2014 (not including the premium) is $6,250. Whether a person or family reaches this maximum level will depend on the amount of health care services they use. Currently, about one in four people use no health care services in any given year.
    The minimum coverage available will have an actuarial value of 60%. This means that for all enrollees in a typical population, the plan will pay for 60% of expenses in total for covered benefits, with enrollees responsible for the rest. Specific provisions like deductibles and copyaments may vary from plan to plan, and out-of-pocket costs for any given individual or family will depend on their health care expenses. Preventive services will be covered with no cost sharing required

    So basically, nothing.  No subsidies - zip, zilch, nada.

    Parent

    Kaiser don't tell ya... (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:03:44 AM EST
    whether to enter gross or net income...I hope net, gross would be really gross!

    I punched in a 34k net yearly income, no employer coverage, and high regional cost factor.  I'd get a 17 hundo credit on a 49 hundo policy, 32 hundo out of pocket.  Currently under my employer plan my contribution, which just went up Eff. 7/1/12, is 27 bucks a week, 14 hundo a year.

    So if my employer drops the plan, I'd get a subsidy, but I'd hardly call it affordable, almost 10% of my yearly take home.  If I was supposed to enter gross income it would be even more.  I think I'd be better off paying the tax, whether I could score Medicaid or not.  If no Medicaid, roll the dice and hope I won't need medical care.
     

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#136)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:34:43 AM EST
    it's taxable income, which is usually your gross income, so recalculate!

    Parent
    No thanks, too scary;).... (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:48:07 AM EST
    Worse comes to worse I'll call myself a Jehovah's Witness, get an exemption, and roll the dice. Cross that bridge if and when we get to it.

    Parent
    Minor point for you kdog (none / 0) (#151)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:54:33 AM EST
    "You are exempt from the penalty if the least expensive plan option in your area exceeds eight percent of your income".

    Parent
    Point taken... (none / 0) (#155)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:01:49 PM EST
    I should squeak by and avoid the tax at least, under this hypothetical.  But be uninsured.

    Parent
    I believe (none / 0) (#152)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:58:19 AM EST
    (emphasis on I believe) it's adjusted gross which would be line 31 on Form 1040.

    Parent
    Errrr (none / 0) (#153)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:58:53 AM EST
    Line 37

    Parent
    And how does that compare to what (none / 0) (#185)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:13:07 PM EST
    you're paying for insurance now?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#189)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:25:43 PM EST
    Those aren't my real stats, so it's hard to compare, so I put in my own information (assuming it's about the same 2 years from now - a risky assumption, I know).

    That the actual required premium payment for me would be $5609 (I would get no subsidy).

    Right now, I currently pay for an indiviudal plan through CareFirst and pay about $3400 / year (I am not counting deductibles in these equations), so this bill does nothing for me (again, assuming my income stays the same, my insurance premiums stay the same, and my health stays the same).

    Parent

    What kept your boss from cancelling your (none / 0) (#141)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:44:22 AM EST
    insurance already? If it is the goodness of his heart, peppered with fear of competition for your labor from other employers who do provide healthcare, then the knowledge that most of you would not qualify for the Medicaid should keep him from canceling now. I assume he can do math like everybody else.

    Parent
    Also, if it is cheaper for him to get out of (none / 0) (#146)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:47:47 AM EST
    the healthcare provider business and just pay the fine, maybe he will raise your wage enough to let you buy insurance on the exchanges. My employers are aslo a small business in that situation. I would not be surprised if that is what they decide to do.

    Parent
    A raise... (none / 0) (#154)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:00:11 PM EST
    would be a must in that situation.  Enough to cover the full cost of a plan?  I doubt it.

    We're under 50 employees so I don't think they would be subject to a fine.  They have a plan now to compete for workers, but in the new economy job market how long will that competition for workers last?  It's not out of the realm of possiblity that we will have more uninsured and higher taxes in 2016 than we do today, and the same stagnant wages.

    Parent

    There is also a tax credit... (none / 0) (#159)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:07:19 PM EST
    for providing coverage.  That might be incentative enough to continue with that employee benefit?

    Parent
    Tax credits, tax penalties... (none / 0) (#184)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:09:55 PM EST
    have I ever told ya how unkeen I am on using the tax code to regulate behavior?  

    The tax code should be for raising revenue for legitimate government purposes, period.  It should not be a tool to encourage having kids or buying houses or buying insurance.

    Criminal law is the proper arena to regulate behavior, within reason.  It may not be that simple, granted, but I'm convinced it need not be this tangled web complicated either.  And more complicated by the year.

    Parent

    I never would've guessed! (none / 0) (#191)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:32:23 PM EST
    On the other hand, your not the one paying the bills at work.  

    In other news, our favorite corporate CEO, the Ginger Hammer, actually made a somewhat good move today.  He also overturned ACA, fined the Supreme Court ten million and suspended Roberts for four decisions.  

    Parent

    True that! (none / 0) (#197)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:52:46 PM EST
    But bossman has to hire an accountant to figure the maze out, another expense.

    1040EZ for me!  I know I probably qualify for deductions I don't take, I hate paperwork more than I like money;)  If the ACA renders the 1040EZ obsolete I'll suing for infliction of emotional distress.  NY State discontinued their short form, much to my chagrin.

    PS...4:25 is still cutting it close, should cover regulation but not necessarily overtime.  Shoulda made it 5pm and pushed Sunday Night out to 9pm EST.

    Parent

    My prediction: (none / 0) (#1)
    by Payaso on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 06:49:55 AM EST
    A lot of people will be unhappy with the decision

    I've always expected them to strike the mandate (none / 0) (#2)
    by desmoinesdem on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 07:25:38 AM EST
    but until the oral arguments I never thought the Roberts 5 would take the argument against the Medicaid expansion seriously. Even the lower court judges who rejected the mandate didn't accept the ridiculous argument against the Medicaid expansion. Clearly the decision still remains with states, even if the cost of deciding not to do it is very high.

    Millions of the additional people covered under this law would be covered under the Medicaid expansion, so if that provision goes either on its own or as part of the whole law getting struck down, it's very, very bad. That's not something Congress might pass again as a partial fix.

    I have friends in West Des Moines who are potentially very screwed if the whole law goes down because of the lifetime cap issue. Amy Ward got a flukey infection that put her in the hospital for months last summer and fall. She continues to need minor surgeries and other care to address complications relating to this illness. She and her husband exceeded what used to be their policy's $1 million cap many months ago. I don't know what people like them will do if they find out that none of their medical expenses will be covered for the rest of their lives.

    SCOTUSblog (none / 0) (#3)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 07:33:56 AM EST
    Will it crash?

    Their normal day has about 1500-3000 readers a day.  Last Thursday, in anticipation of the health care rulings, they hit 70,000 and on Monday they hit 100,000. They are preparing for 250,000 today (according to a WaPo article - even the White House is "depending on the web site to deliver the news to the president."

    And here's something I didn't know - Paper copies of decisions are handed out in a room where no electronics are allowed, so it's then a mad dash for reporters to get to phones and computers to broadcast the results, so we should have news a few minutes later.

    Good line (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 08:05:36 AM EST
    from Scotusblog Live today. They are calling it their Super Bowl.

    Parent
    Need some beer and nachos (none / 0) (#7)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 08:22:02 AM EST
    Looks like (none / 0) (#8)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 08:31:38 AM EST
    they have a good shot at reaching their prediction of 250,000 viewers on the live blog by 10:00am (If it doesn't crash). Better bring in more beer vendors.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#9)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 08:35:57 AM EST
    They're at 145,000 now (9:35 AM).

    While we're at it, we might want some popcorn, nuts, and french fries.

    Parent

    SC Super Bowl... (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 08:39:40 AM EST
    perfect analogy, it is sport.

    Well almost perfect, more Wrestlemania than Super Bowl imo.

    Parent

    Hey, man! (none / 0) (#11)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 08:43:40 AM EST
    Apaprently among the couple hundred or so people outside, there are belly dancers!

    Parent
    "Sheeeeeit, (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:06:39 AM EST
    if this gon' be that kinda party i'ma stick my d*ck in the mashed potatoes!"

    - Mantan Moreland

    Parent

    I hate (none / 0) (#12)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 08:45:23 AM EST
    I hate the sports analogies. It's a sign that the issue isn't close to these people. It's a game to them.  Makes me sick.

    This is serious business.  If they were waiting on a cancer diagnosis, would they say, "this is my super bowl".  No.

    Parent

    You must not be familiar with the (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 08:56:41 AM EST
    work being done at ScotusBlog; if you were, you would understand that the reference to the Super Bowl had nothing to do with their regarding all of this as sport, but with the incredible logistical aspects of covering the decision live, keeping the site from crashing, being prepared to answer questions, explain the issues at stake, etc.

    To further drive home how serious they are about what they do, they said that while they appreciate the many positive references/compliments to the blog by the media and other blogs for their extensive and detailed coverage of the Court and the legal issues being decided, they don't link to those outlets because they want to be as un-self-promotional as possible.

    Parent

    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:01:23 AM EST
    Of course, I know the work of the Scotusblog.  I am not stupid, Anne.

    I still think they used a bad analogy. A game analogy when talking about something so extremely serious would always be bad to me.


    Parent

    Linda Greenhouse (none / 0) (#5)
    by desmoinesdem on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 07:54:15 AM EST
    thinks the law will be upheld.

    Chief Justice Roberts was not completely silent on Monday. He filed an opinion dissenting from the court's other decision that day, Miller v. Alabama, which barred mandatory sentences of life without parole for those convicted of committing murder before the age of 18. Noting that the federal government and most states have such sentencing laws on their books, the chief justice criticized the court's majority for having failed to "display our usual respect for elected officials." Courts "must presume an Act of Congress is constitutional" barring some obvious reason it isn't, he said, citing a 19th-century precedent for that proposition. And quoting the 1976 Supreme Court decision that reauthorized capital punishment, he said there was a "heavy burden" on "those who would attack the judgment of the representatives of the people."

    The court heard argument in the life-without-parole case during the same March sitting in which it heard the Affordable Care Act case - which at its core comes down to the authority of judges to substitute their views on matters of economic policy for those of the people's elected representatives. There were other grounds on which to object to Justice Kagan's majority opinion -- Justices Thomas and Alito found some in their separate dissenting opinions - so it's of at least passing interest that the chief justice chose a theme of judicial deference to legislative policy choices.



    On the undercard (none / 0) (#15)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:05:34 AM EST
    Stolen Valor Act struck down.

    First American dismissed (none / 0) (#17)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:08:45 AM EST
    Which means what exactly? (none / 0) (#45)
    by sj on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:41:02 AM EST
    They didn't rule on it (none / 0) (#48)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:45:23 AM EST
    Link

    Synopsis:

    Whether lawsuits under the Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act, which allows homebuyers to sue banks and title companies when they pay kickbacks for the closing of a mortgage loan, are constitutional if the kickback does not affect the price or quality of the services provided?

    Parent

    Okay, but what are the implications? (none / 0) (#59)
    by sj on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:58:23 AM EST
    Does it mean that Edwards has standing for a class action suit?  

    Parent
    Honestly, I don't know (none / 0) (#63)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:59:40 AM EST
    I don't know much about the case except that it was predicted that Thomas would write the opinion.  I think everyone was surprised that it was dismissed.

    Parent
    It was one of the other decisions (none / 0) (#51)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:48:27 AM EST
    delivered today; had to do with whether homeowners have standing to sue over kickbacks between banks and title companies, where the homeowner is not suffering any financial consequence as a result.

    Parent
    Madate upheld (none / 0) (#19)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:11:08 AM EST
    Roberts joins majority


    Redefined as a tax (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:13:51 AM EST
    setting up for a future challenge after the tax kicks in.

    Still a huge win for ACA today.

    Parent

    And a loss (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:18:08 AM EST
    for those who can't afford insurance premiums, and have a new tax.

    Parent
    And the Republicans (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:19:00 AM EST
    have a great opening, that Obama implemented a huge new tax.

    Parent
    Do you support single payer (none / 0) (#65)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:00:54 AM EST
    nationwide, supplemented with optional private insurance?

    Otherwise, I see nothing to complain about.

    Parent

    Nothing to complain about? (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:12:07 AM EST
    "Banks, insurance companies, and providers will now exact an even greater cost on the economy overall; but it will take another 1-2 human generations for that reality to finally result in a dismantling of this new system and its replacement with a single payer."  roger arnold

    Parent
    I don't deny that Mr. Natural (none / 0) (#88)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:15:02 AM EST
    but the commenter I was responding to doesn't seem like she'd be one to support universal medical care. She probably thinks the whole thing should be left to wholly deregulated private market or "solved" (which is actually impossible) on a state-by-state basis.

    Parent
    A great opening with whom? Their base? (none / 0) (#98)
    by Farmboy on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:23:26 AM EST
    Because the myth that the tea partiers are bipartisan is just that.

    I think the right had an inkling that the ruling was going this way. Last night, for the first time since the 2010 elections, there was a long-format TV ad on describing what happens if "Obamacare" takes effect. It listed families paying income taxes greater than their incomes, death panels (seriously - the ad mentioned gov't panels of bureaucrats who decide if you lived or died), doubling the national debt, etc.,

    That's hymn number 13 for the current right-wing Republican party, and their base will be singing at full volume.

    Parent

    I think I saw that same ad over the (none / 0) (#106)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:33:30 AM EST
    weekend; it featured a nice, motherly-looking female doctor bemoaning what was going to happen to health care under the new law.

    It seemed filled with typical, right-wing talking points and gross misrepresntation of the law (a law I also think is terrible, but not for the reasons stated in the ad).

    I didn't catch the sponsor of the ad - I imagine that would tell us pretty much all we'd need to know.

    Parent

    Or it would not tell much about the sponsors of (none / 0) (#173)
    by jawbone on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:43:44 PM EST
    the ad. Usually, they go for names which are highly misleading with no info about who's really funding it.

    Parent
    The whole point of the mandate (none / 0) (#27)
    by jtaylorr on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:25:38 AM EST
    is to bring down premiums. Premiums will NEVER come down unless everyone is covered (basic economics - mandate solves problem of adverse selection)

    Parent
    Everyone covered? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:03:13 AM EST
    This doesn't cover everyone.

    As a single childless man too young for Medicaid or Social Security I'm not covered by this law.

    This law does extend coverage, but its got a tremendous crony capitalistic part in that it leaves private insurers in control. And a good 10 to 20 million people are still, end of the day, uninsured.

    Parent

    Too true in my state, too (none / 0) (#169)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:37:27 PM EST
    for a stepson desperately in need of coverage.

    But our gov refuses to implement the plan required by this health insurance law. And our gov states today that he will continue to refuse to implement it.  The result will win more votes to the righties in this swing state, where the local media is incredibly rightwing, too.  Those media and Fox will be the resort of so many who wish to remain misinformed for November.

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#42)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:39:02 AM EST
    Premiums are going to have to be paid regardless and they are only increasing.  The mandate MIGHT stabilize premiums, but only if it's cost effective to choose them over the mandate tax.

    (Which is a TAX, Mr. Obama)

    At this rate, I predict for a whole lot of people, the tax will be what they can afford, because they'll need to pay 8% of their adjusted gross income in premiums before subsidies will kick in.  $1000 may be a whole lot less than that.

    Look at the high risk bridge insurance the government offered.  Govt expected a flood of people to sign up.  In the end they had to lower the premium and still the number of people who signed up was unexpectedly low.

    All of these pie in the sky notions of what the mandate will do are just pie in the sky.

    Parent

    Pie ain't what I'd call it. (none / 0) (#83)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:12:57 AM EST
    Bull$hit in the sky is more accurate.

    Parent
    Is as Much a Tax as... (none / 0) (#112)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:44:40 AM EST
    ...anyone not getting a credit is a tax.

    More like a credit for having insurance.  Not arguing that's it's good, but if we are going to call it a tax, we need to start calling being single a tax, not having kids a tax, not owning a home a tax, and on and on.

    Parent

    Un-F&&&-believable (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:18:24 AM EST
    Policy-wise, I'm not thrilled.  But politically-- I'm SOOOO looking forward to the watching wingers' heads exploding.

    Parent
    Hurrah, we really screwed ... (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:46:05 AM EST
    the Republicans, we gonna make insurance companies richer and richer.

    It's amazing how great this feels.

    /sarcasm

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#139)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:41:10 AM EST
    it's wonderful to watch their head explode especially when you point out it's a CONSERVATIVE that saved the plan.

    Parent
    From what I've seen (none / 0) (#145)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:47:21 AM EST
    They are calling it "everybody got something." They are not happy it was upheld, but they are very happy that the Commerce Clause and Necessary and Proper Clause jurisprudence was limited.

    And, since it is still a widely unpopular bill, they have energy and focus for election day.

    Parent

    Maybe (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:05:43 PM EST
    that's how the pundits are spinning it but the rank and file tea partiers are rabidly mad and expected it to be overturned because they have convinced themselves that it is "unconstitutional"


    Parent
    Which means (none / 0) (#162)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:09:48 PM EST
    They are going to be mobilized and coalescing behind Romney and Republican Congressional candidates. They will be out in full force.  I posted further down that I saw one report (again, don't know the veracity) that Romney raised $100K in less than an hour because of this.

    There goes the "Yeah, but Romney doesn't have the support of his base" argument.

    Parent

    Honestly (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:54:36 PM EST
    if the SC had overturned it I think you would be spinning this as a win for Romney.

    The fact of the matter is it is not going to make one iota of difference to those people that you are talking about. If the SC had overturned it, they would still be motivated. Romney has the support of his base in the sense that they are voting for him because he's more or less their only shot at getting rid of Obama. I would just love to tell some of the "be careful what you wish for".

    Now that they've lost the "constitutional" argument they are onto the tax argument.

    Parent

    Snort! (none / 0) (#182)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:09:28 PM EST
    Hardly.

    It is a very good day for the Obama team.  But how long that goodwill will last remains to be seen - as people learn more about how it will affect them - and as Republicans put out their own spin, and as job numbers come out next Friday.

    Parent

    That is (none / 0) (#186)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:15:45 PM EST
    why I'm saying it's not going to make a whole lot of difference because it's going to be about jobs. The main thing this does is give me something to hit the conservatives with because it was Roberts who upheld the ACA. They have NO response for that. LOL.

    Parent
    Yep, "the November remedy" (none / 0) (#168)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:33:16 PM EST
    was immediately pushed by my rightie gov in his response today, and I've seen that phrase on several rightie blogs.

    I simply applaud Roberts for upholding Romneycare.  THAT makes rightie heads explode.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#30)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:29:36 AM EST
    From SCOTUSblog:

    The Court holds that the mandate violates the Commerce Clause, but that doesn't matter b/c there are five votes for the mandate to be constitutional under the taxing power


    Back in March, during oral arguments, this (none / 0) (#76)
    by Farmboy on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:08:51 AM EST
    response from Solicitor General Donald Verrilli to Alito:
    the Court has held in a license tax cases that something can be a constitutional exercise of the taxing power whether or not it is called a tax. And that's because the nature of the inquiry that we will conduct tomorrow is different from the nature of the inquiry that we will conduct today. Tomorrow the question is whether Congress has the authority under the taxing power to enact it and the form of words doesn't have a dispositive effect on that analysis.

    had the pundits convinced that Verrilli had bungled the case and the mandate would be overturned.

    Parent
    I am so looking forward later to reading (none / 0) (#119)
    by Peter G on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:49:35 AM EST
    Roberts' explanation of how he concludes that Congress has the power to tax/penalize a person's refusal to do something which he also believes (by his Commerce Clause vote) Congress has no power to require the person to do in the first place.

    Parent
    I would think the answer is that (none / 0) (#125)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:00:05 AM EST
    the taxing power grants Congress the power to levy the tax, and if Congress wants to let people off the hook from paying the tax if they get health insurance, that's ok too.

    Not saying I agree that a mandate isn't permissible under the Commerce Clause, but I can at least see the logic he is using.  

    Parent

    Interesting that Roberts was the key vote. (none / 0) (#32)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:31:38 AM EST
    Essentially this is a pro-privatization opinion.  I.e., clears the way for further privatization of any government service.  I.e., Wall Street should like this.

    Wall Street is tanking right now (none / 0) (#36)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:34:08 AM EST
    Wall Street just doesn't like surprises. (none / 0) (#40)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:38:22 AM EST
    But in the long term this is "great news" for privatization proponents.  

    Parent
    From ScotusBlog's live coverage: (none / 0) (#39)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:37:35 AM EST
    Amy Howe: The money quote from the section on the mandate: Our precedent demonstrates that Congress had the power to impose the exaction in Section 5000A under the taxing power, and that Section 5000A need not be read to do more than impose a tax. This is sufficient to sustain it.

    Amy Howe: On the Medicaid issue, a majority of the Court holds that the Medicaid expansion is constitutional but that it w/b unconstitutional for the federal government to withhold Medicaid funds for non-compliance with the expansion provisions.

    Lyle: The key comment on salvaging the Medicaid expansion is this (from Roberts): "Nothing in our opinion precludes Congress from offering funds under the ACA to expand the availability of health care, and requiring that states accepting such funds comply with the conditions on their use. What Congress is not free to do is to penalize States that choose not to participate in that new program by taking away their existing Medicaid funding." (p. 55)

    Amy Howe: The Court holds that the mandate violates the Commerce Clause, but that doesn't matter b/c there are five votes for the mandate to be constitutional under the taxing power.

    Amy Howe: The Court holds that the Anti-Injunction Act doesn't apply because the label "tax" is not controlling.

    Lyle: Justice Ginsburg makes clear that the vote is 5-4 on sustaining the mandate as a form of tax. Her opinion, for herself and Sotomayor, Breyer and Kagan, joins the key section of Roberts opinion on that point. She would go further and uphold the mandate under the Commerce Clause, which Roberts wouldn't. Her opinion on Commerce does not control.  

    Link

    More (none / 0) (#41)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:38:48 AM EST
    Amy Howe: In Plain English: The Affordable Care Act, including its individual mandate that virtually all Americans buy health insurance, is constitutional. There were not five votes to uphold it on the ground that Congress could use its power to regulate commerce between the states to require everyone to buy health insurance. However, five Justices agreed that the penalty that someone must pay if he refuses to buy insurance is a kind of tax that Congress can impose using its taxing power. That is all that matters. Because the mandate survives, the Court did not need to decide what other parts of the statute were constitutional, except for a provision that required states to comply with new eligibility requirements for Medicaid or risk losing their funding. On that question, the Court held that the provision is constitutional as long as states would only lose new funds if they didn't comply with the new requirements, rather than all of their funding.


    Parent
    I actually like this (none / 0) (#49)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:46:10 AM EST
    The court as a majority recognized enough limits on the commerce clause to refuse to uphold it on that ground (which means the commerce clause still sets limits yay), but instead used the more general - but politically honest - taxation power arguments. This might actually be the best of all possible legal worlds in my opinion and more to the point - it suggests single payer might be upheld under a taxation scheme. However, it means politicians will have to be more honest about when they are taxing :)

    Parent
    As you may guess (none / 0) (#44)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:40:02 AM EST
    I am a little bit happy about these developments.

    (understatement)

    Your guy (none / 0) (#53)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:54:05 AM EST
    could very well lose because of this.

    The MANDATE is really, really unpopular, and it will be especially so because now it's carved in stone...and when the Republicans further emphasize its status as A TAX.

    Which is what it is.

    Parent

    So he loses (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:13:08 AM EST
    This law is going to save lives.  Lots of them.

    People say I place the politics over the impact on people.

    Well here is that not happening.  I care more about the lives saved than Obama losing.  

    Parent

    Opinion is (none / 0) (#47)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:42:19 AM EST
    here.

    Obama said it wasn't a tax (none / 0) (#50)
    by friendofinnocence on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:47:18 AM EST
    Supreme Court said it is a tax, which means Obama was not truthful.  He has raised taxes on the middle class after saying time and again he wouldn't do so.

    I think he is going to be in trouble as a result of this decision.

    He did not lie. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Leopold on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:59:16 AM EST
    He said he did not believe it was a tax. The Supreme Court then found that they could uphold the ACA by interpreting the mandate as a tax.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#67)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:02:27 AM EST
    (September 2009 - This Week with George Stephanopoulus)

    STEPHANOPOULOS: [I]t's still a tax increase.

    OBAMA: No. That's not true, George. The -- for us to say that you've got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase. What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore than the fact that right now everybody in America, just about, has to get auto insurance. Nobody considers that a tax increase. People say to themselves, that is a fair way to make sure that if you hit my car, that I'm not covering all the costs.



    Parent
    How does that differ from what I said? (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Leopold on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:17:41 AM EST
    Obama said he did not view it as a tax. The Supreme Court does. That does not make him a liar.

    Parent
    He said (none / 0) (#110)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:43:17 AM EST
    it is "absolutely not a tax increase"

    The word "absolutely" kinda doesn't make it his own personal opinion.

    Parent

    Disagree. (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Leopold on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:46:12 AM EST
    In his opinion, it is absolutely not to be interpreted as a tax increase.

    Parent
    It makes him in disagreement (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:36:21 AM EST
    with the SCOTUS interpretation, not a liar. Am I a liar now because I disagree with you?

    Parent
    Wrong (none / 0) (#143)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:45:10 AM EST
    It puts him making a declarative statement before the ruling.  It alsop really doesn't matter what he may have meant - it's what he will be shown saying.  
    Of course, there's always his statement during the campaign where he said that Americans making less than $250,000 would "... will not see any of [your] taxes increase one single dime."   It doesn't matter what he was talking in relation to - it's the same as GHWB's "Read my lips".

    Look, I'm not saying I agree - I'm pointing out what it can be spun like. Is that so hard a concept to visualize?  The commercial?


    Parent

    Pretty Weak Spin IMO (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:30:53 PM EST
    "Obama raised your taxes by (insert 2 mins explanation).  Switch to video clip of him saying it's not a tax.

    Sure it will work on some people, but aren't they already voting for the other guy.  I just don't the value here.

    Parent

    It's not what it IS (none / 0) (#171)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:40:33 PM EST
    it's what it looks like that counts.

    Parent
    He may still not think it is a tax increase (none / 0) (#121)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:53:33 AM EST
    I don't think it matters from a practical perspective either way.  The right is going to call it the biggest tax increase in history anyway.  We knew that was going to be the spin.  

    Bottom line is that it is constitutional and now it is up to Obama to sell the benefits v. the costs.

    This "he lied!!!" business is silly.  He won the day.  Period.  Now if he wants to win re-election, he needs to make people understand how good this thing really is.  he may fail at that but getting side tracked by tax v. non tax is just ridiculous now.

    Parent

    I agree that the President (none / 0) (#134)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:26:44 AM EST
    need not dwell long on the tax definition, but the charge of a "lie" by the opposition should not go unanswered.  The ACA describes the "shared responsibility payment" as a penalty, not a tax. The Court found that label fatal to application of a challenge on the basis of the Anti-Injuction Act (which uses the label, tax).  

    However, for purposes of the Constitution, the Court held that the label penalty does not control whether an extraction in within Congress's power to tax.  Aside from the jurisprudence, it does need to be pointed out that the mandate need not be read to declare failing to do so is unlawful--there are no legal consequences beyond requiring a payment to the IRS.

    And, as a policy matter, this mandate needs to be presented in terms of the impact on insurance pools and the overall benefits.  There is much to the ACA, but the mandate has drawn the fire, probably because the idea seems grating, but it needs to be addressed or it be the Bain of the president's existence.

    Parent

    The order to whimper "he lied" has come (none / 0) (#172)
    by Farmboy on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:43:37 PM EST
    down from the queen:
    Obama lied to the American people. Again. He said it wasn't a tax. Obama lies; freedom dies. - Sarah Palin

    link

    Parent

    I don't see it that way (none / 0) (#122)
    by sj on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:55:53 AM EST
    He wasn't under oath where word parsing is actually kind of important.  He was stating his opinion most strongly.

    Parent
    The dissent of (none / 0) (#166)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:21:01 PM EST
    Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Kennedy, after rejecting the Commerce and Necessary and Proper Clauses, also rejected the tax argument.    The dissent said it was a penalty since that is what the legislation terms it, and, the minority, ridicules the Court for saying, for purposes of the Anti-Injuction Act it is a tax, and for purposes of  the Constitution, that it is both, a penalty and a tax, or it does not matter. The dissent said it was not about to re-write the legislation to call it a tax.  So, they held that it was not an exercise of Congress' tax power.  Same thinking for rejecting the Anti-Injuction Act--since that applies to a tax.

    Parent
    Dumb... (none / 0) (#132)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:20:31 AM EST
    ...a politician not calling a tax isn't called lying, it's called politics.

    The sad part IMO is if he and the rest of them had the fortitude to call it what it is, a tax, this would have never went to the SCOTUS.


    Parent

    It doesn't matter if you think it's dumb (none / 0) (#137)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:35:19 AM EST
    It's pre-made video tape for an ad.

    Parent
    Except that the vast (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:08:18 AM EST
    majority who have health insurance and/or want it and will now be able to afford it aren't affected by the mandate/tax.  So no taxes are being raised on the middle class here.

    Parent
    In the short term I agree. (none / 0) (#79)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:10:20 AM EST
    Though, of course, since the ACA does very little to control costs, the portion of people who will be effected will grow over time.

    Parent
    Until of course (none / 0) (#86)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:14:50 AM EST
    Those middle class people lose their jobs.

    And premium rates keep going up, so I don't see how the middle class isn't being affected here.

    Parent

    Didn't say they wouldn't be (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:17:11 AM EST
    affected, just that they're not having their taxes raised.

    (Just to be clear, I really hate this kludge of a law)


    Parent

    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:24:20 AM EST
    ...in reality, the cost of health care is increasing and since human beings require it at some point, everyone is effected.  Unless of course you are of some alien race and never need medical care.

    All classes are being effected by the increase of medical care regardless of this bill.  So singling out the middle class, while true, isn't exactly what is happening.

    Parent

    Don't they get subsidized at that point? (none / 0) (#170)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:40:27 PM EST
    Not if (none / 0) (#174)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:46:34 PM EST
    their family income is still over 133% of the poverty line.

    Parent
    I thought it was up to 300 or 400%? (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:49:50 PM EST
    and in those cases, wouldn't it be cheaper than COBRA?

    Parent
    You would be correct (none / 0) (#179)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:57:32 PM EST
    "Premium subsidies will be available for individuals and families with incomes between 133 percent and 400 percent of the poverty level, or $14,404 to $43,320 for individuals and $29,326 to $88,200 for a family of four."

    -KaiserHealthNews

    Parent

    Depends (none / 0) (#181)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:06:01 PM EST
    If you are in a "high cost region", "medium cost region" or "low cost region".

    And if you do the calculator at the Kaiser Foundation website, and put in for example, 40 years old, $43,000, Single, no employer plan...your "subsidy" is a grand total of $415.

    Parent

    Yes. (none / 0) (#183)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:09:53 PM EST
    The 133 over poverty is the Medicaid expansion.

    Parent
    Oh right, more trouble than he would have (none / 0) (#52)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:53:46 AM EST
    been in if it had gone the other way?

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#55)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:55:09 AM EST
    Given that the law is very unpopular, it's probably bad for Obama.

    Parent
    Better to be a winner than a loser. n/t (none / 0) (#61)
    by lilburro on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:59:02 AM EST
    the Point... (none / 0) (#135)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:29:16 AM EST
    ...is that more people dislike it then like it, so a victory today could equate to a loss in November.

    I disagree, this is Obama's hallmark legislation, had it been struck down, his resume would be virtually bare, sans all the killings.

    This should also slow down the Romney claim that he somehow has the power to kill Obamacare and will work tirelessly doing just that.

    it would be nice to know the ration of insured Independents that are supposedly going to decide this election.

    Parent

    Except (none / 0) (#150)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:54:18 AM EST
    I have seen it reported (and it could be all fluff, I know) that the Romney campaign reportedly raised $100,000 in less than an hour after the ruling came down.

    This could be very good for Romney too.

    Parent

    Strawman (none / 0) (#57)
    by friendofinnocence on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:57:36 AM EST
    alert.

    Parent
    Strawman alert (none / 0) (#60)
    by friendofinnocence on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:58:46 AM EST
    was in reference to post 52.

    Parent
    It's not a strawman (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:52:05 AM EST
    Many were predicting disaster to his campaign if the law had been struck down. This discussion of disagreement over definition of a tax is not nearly so bad, IMO.

    Someone's comment would have been 'This is very bad for Obama' no matter what the outcome of this case.

    Parent

    Obama lied? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:56:13 AM EST
    No, couldn't be!

    Sarcasm of course. The man lies like he breathes.

    Parent

    Good news. (none / 0) (#58)
    by Leopold on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 09:57:53 AM EST
    Question:  

    How does the fact that the Court redefined the mandate as a tax affect future progressive political efforts in general?

    Not at all, I think (none / 0) (#77)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:09:23 AM EST
    But I'm not a lawyer.

    Parent
    I'm just curious (none / 0) (#92)
    by Leopold on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:16:59 AM EST
    whether it would have been preferable, for future progressive law enactments, to have upheld the mandate via the commerce clause rather than to have it reinterpreted as a tax.

    Maybe that doesn't matter.

    Parent

    I believe (none / 0) (#104)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:30:53 AM EST
    Initially there were 4 votes to uphold it as a mandate, 1 vote as a tax, 4 as unconstitutional. Roberts held the power vote and thus the ultimate outcome.

    Parent
    It is not a "fact" (none / 0) (#123)
    by Peter G on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:56:56 AM EST
    that the Court "redefined" the mandate as a tax.  The Court ruled that the universal coverage provision was not a "mandate."  It upheld the power of Congress to offer people the choice either to buy minimum insurance or to pay a tax instead.  And if they do neither, of course, then the person can be penalized for not paying the tax (although not for not buying insurance).  This power of Congress, the Court held, is conferred by the Taxing Power.  No one "defined" or "redefined" the "mandate" as a "tax."

    Parent
    OK, thanks. (none / 0) (#157)
    by Leopold on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:05:24 PM EST
    Change can happen. (none / 0) (#73)
    by lilburro on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:07:32 AM EST
    Today is a good day.

    I should add that I support parts of this law (none / 0) (#78)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:09:52 AM EST
    And actively hate others.
    The reason I'm happy is both HOW the SCOTUS upheld this, and because I realize there are some good provisions and that healthcare in this country needs major reform and so even this is better than nothing.

    The Administration offered (none / 0) (#108)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:40:12 AM EST
    three arguments for the constitutionality of the mandate,  (l) Commerce Clause, (2) Necessary and Proper Clause, and (3) tax. The critical fifth vote (Roberts) went with the tax argument.  And, the majority states that not owing health insurance establishes a condition that triggers the tax.  

    The Roberts vote held that the mandate was not justified under the Commerce Clause because "The power to regulate commerce presupposes the existence of commercial activity to be regulated."  --which may be assessed as being a narrow construct and  not likely to affect Congressional authority to pass social legislation in the future.

    Roberts pointed out that he was not deciding if this was sound policy, only whether Congress has power under the Constitution to enact the challenged provisions.   I would agree, and from that perspective alone, this has been a major victory for the Obama administration.  Moreover, on the policy front, this decision gives President Obama a second (maybe first) wind to explain the ACA free from distracting claims of unconstitutionality.  The campaign needs to educate citizens about this complex legislation in as simple terms as possible--what it does, and what it does not do.  Time is short, but it can be done. The Republican mantra will now focus on repeal, now.

    The problem is that having a tax (none / 0) (#113)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:45:13 AM EST
    (I'm glad we can call it a tax now instead of a mandate, to be honest) without a public option (or regulating the profit out of non-government administered health insurance) is bad policy, and the reason Obama is having trouble explaining it is above all becuase it is ultimately harmful to most people.

    Parent
    And the words (none / 0) (#117)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:47:18 AM EST
    "Raising taxes on the middle class" are always good political copy in an election year.

    Of course, Mitch McConnell is already saying they will repeal it, which, if they are successful, renders all of this moot.

    Parent

    Actually, I don't think most (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:52:41 AM EST
    Americans would ultimately have a problem with raising taxes a little to be assured of having adequate health insurance.  Remember, polls showed that 2/3 of Americans supported a government administered health insurance.

    The problems are that too many leaders of the national Democratic party either a) have bought into the Republican fear mongering and don't have the guts to defend taxation anymore and b) are in bed with for-profit insurance companies and are more committed to helping them line their pockets rather than ensure that everyone has access to decent healthcare.

    Parent

    This might be a silly question (none / 0) (#124)
    by sj on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 10:59:30 AM EST
    but as I'm reading I don't see the answer to it:

    Does this mean that my medical insurance premiums are now, in actual fact, a tax?  And if so, does this mean that my taxes are now going directly into the coffers of a private corporation?

    Parent

    I don't think so exactly. (none / 0) (#126)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:02:37 AM EST
    The way I'm seeing it is this: there is a tax levied for not having health insurance.  You can avoid being required to pay such a tax by purchasing health insurance.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#127)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:03:12 AM EST
    I think where the "tax" argument comes in is that you will a) pay for insurance premiums (if not covered by an employer plan) OR b) you will pay a tax penalty.  You are putting out money either way - it's your choice where you want to send it to.

    Parent
    And in addition to paying a tax penalty, (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:04:13 PM EST
    at least for those whose incomes do not exempt them from the mandate, those who choose not to buy insurance will still be paying for whatever health care they do need.

    But...those who do have health insurance will also be paying to some extent - in addition to premiums or some percentage of them - for the health care they need, too - co-pays and premiums and deductibles are not going away.

    I think people are forgetting that.  I actually had someone ask me this morning if paying the tax meant you didn't have to pay for the health care itself.  My response - after explaining that was not the case - was that if we could pay a tax in exchange for health care, we'd have no need for private insurance companies and would have some version of a single-payer system.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#131)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:11:44 AM EST
    They are not a tax, but the penalty for not having insurance, is.  We are also tax penalized for not having a mortgage and for not having children.

    Now, we're penalized for being unemployed, under-employed or self-employed.

    Parent

    Can you explain (none / 0) (#140)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:42:31 AM EST
    how the penaly w/o a public option is

    ultimately harmful to most people

    when most people already have coverage in one form or another and ultimately aren't going to be impacted?

    Parent

    Because penalty w/o public option (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 12:49:19 PM EST
    does little to curb cost increases in the long run.  Thus, most people's premiums (or co-pays, etc.) are going to continue to rise to strain their resources (or general level of coverage for what they're paying for will go down in quality).

    Parent
    So then there is some other factor (none / 0) (#188)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:24:29 PM EST
    beyond who provides the insurance that causes the costs to go up?  Yes, the cost of services.

    The gov't cannot force providers of service to lower their costs.  Nor can they force a provider to accept lower reimbursement that would need to go hand-in-hand w/a public option.  I never understood why people believe a public option would magically cure the cost issue.

    Parent

    Um, because if the government (5.00 / 4) (#193)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:35:01 PM EST
    were the primary negotiator with providors, the government would have much more leverage.  What are the providors going to do if primary source of their income would be the government?  Refuse to keep their prices down?

    It's simple supply and demand.

    Parent

    Sorry, one more thing. (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by dk on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:37:52 PM EST
    Also, government administered healthcare keeps costs down by taking profit out of the equation.  For profit insurance companies have incentives to keep all costs high, as they can squeeze the exessive costs up to their executives and investors, and passing along costs to consumers.  The government does not have that incentive.

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#199)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 02:13:30 PM EST
    For profit insurance companies have incentives to keep all costs high, as they can squeeze the exessive costs up to their executives and investors, and passing along costs to consumers.

    This is nice spin but absolutely not true.  You have no proof whatsover of that.  Not only, the concept of competition makes this impossible.  

    Do you even know who processes Medicare/Medicaid claims?  Do you know who negotiated increases in their Medicare reimbursement rate as part of ACA?  Providers rely on higher payments from other income sources to subsidize the low payments they get from Medicare/Medicaid.  I highly doubt you'd get doctors and hospitals to go along w/an across the board pay cut.  Coincidentally, this is why they had to be negotiated with to get ACA passed.

    One of the problems we have on the left is an inability to let go of our bogeymans when facts get in the way.

    Fact is the administrator in the middle - whomever that is; be it the gov't or private industry, is not where the cost issues are.  Cost issues come from either utilization(that's you and I) or cost of services.  The gov't knows this, that's why they don't cover everyone.  Any state or country that has tried the public insurance route has discovered that also.

    Parent

    Glad I'm an old guy (none / 0) (#129)
    by fishcamp on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 11:09:39 AM EST
    with Medicare and Medicare supplemental insurance as this is way too deep for me.  In fact I'm watching Wimbledon which I can understand.  It's about time for KeysDan to pop in and level the field.  :)

    I thanked LBJ for the best birthday present I ever (5.00 / 4) (#180)
    by jawbone on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:03:00 PM EST
    received -- Medicare. Really, Best Evah B'day Preasent.

    It made turning 65 something to look forward to, as bothersome as figuring out what was the best supplemental to choose (I recommend Plan F, unless you have good HMO type offerings in your state. I don't.) And, given how much my insurance had cost me, I was desperately looking forward to getting older and aging into Medicare!

    I was finally able to afford to get physical therapy I'd needed but couldn't manage the high co-pays for each visit. It won't be as effective as if I'd had it at the time of the injury, but it's helped me function better going forward. Oh, with some exceptions, I can choose my own doctors, even get those second and third opinions.

    Thank you, so much, LBJ, and all the people, Dems and those disappearing moderate Republicans, who worked for decent health care for the elderly. Thank you, Harry S. and FDR, along with the real Progressives of the early 20th Century. Thank you, TR. Thanks to everyone who ever worked for social safety nets and fairness.

    So terribly sad Medicare was not made available to everyone. Or at least, as Hillary had proposed, the age to enter Medicare could have been lowered, but it wasn't "on the table". It could have helped so very many people, esp'ly now with so many people in their late 50's/early 60's downsized, fired, unable to find work -- losing their health insurance or spending their retirement savings (as I did) to stay insured.

    Woulda, coulda, shoulda...that way lies madness and deep, deep anger at certain Dems in name only....

    Parent

    And Thanks for Detroit! (none / 0) (#196)
    by redwolf on Thu Jun 28, 2012 at 01:39:56 PM EST
    The future awaits.

    Parent