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It should be noted that the real Joe Walsh -- the one who so happens to be the guitarist for The Eagles, and not the guy who had to be dragged repeatedly into state court by his former wife for stiffing his own kids -- has endorsed Congressman Walsh's opponent, Tammy Duckworth, and has even held a fundraising benefit concert on her behalf.
Yeah, right -- like that's going to happen. I'm beginning to think that Sen. Reid has to be enjoying this. He's quite obviously struck a pretty deep nerve, which given the present volume of GOP whining would tend to indicate that he's probably a lot closer to paydirt than those pearl clutchers over at the Washington Post will ever dare to admit publicly.
Mitt's new slogan: "How much do you hate Obama?"
But hey, while we're talking about proof and evidence, where's Priebus' proof that Reid is a liar?
Oh, right - he doesn't have any.
Funny how that works... Parent
Feel better? Parent
LBJ would be proud - politics at its finest. Parent
Funny stuff. Parent
"He [Mitt Romney] didn't pay taxes for 10 years! Now, do I know that that's true? Well, I'm not certain, but obviously he can't release those tax returns. How would it look?"
You redonkulous, you. Parent
BTW -
It was clearly the ten years from 2nd grade to Sr. in HS.
That is a "redonkulous" statement, given that Mitt is 65 years old and has only released two years of returns. Parent
Oh, well ...
... work with what ya got ... Parent
So I will ask you the same question I asked of someone else just as unskilled in the art of deflection: what proof do you have that Reid isn't telling the truth - or better - what proof do you have that Romney did pay income taxes for the years in question?
Right...none. Zip. Zero.
We get that you want this to be about Democrats; you want to do whatever you have to to take the spotlight off of Romney. But guess what? This isn't going to go away until Romney releases his tax returns. Romney can either release them, or spend the next three months dealing with the speculation about what's in them and suffering the political consequences.
It's his choice. Parent
Do you have any evidence he wasn't told Romney had paid no taxes for 10 years? Parent
Did Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid really hear from an investor in Bain Capital that Mitt Romney didn't pay income tax for 10 years? Probably not. Even if he did, what are the odds that this "information" was just uninformed speculation? Pretty good. "Now, do I know that that's true?" Reid told the Huffington Post's Sam Stein and Ryan Grim. "Well, I'm not certain." Brilliantly played. Make the accusation as broad as possible--10 years!--so that Romney will want to demonstrate that Reid (or Reid's source) is a liar by releasing tax records showing he only paid zero taxes for, say, three years. Reid shrugs, says, "I guess my guy was exaggerating." Romney's candidacy takes a huge and possibly fatal hit. Advantage: Obama.
And, then there's Salon, no friend of Romney, has this to say:
Still, Romney has refused to release more than two years of returns, prompting Democrats to accuse Romney of hiding something nefarious. But is it even possible for someone of Romney's wealth to pay nothing for 10 years? Maybe, but probably not. David Miller, a tax attorney with Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP in New York, told Salon that knowing what we know about Romney's tax returns, it's "highly unlikely" that he paid nothing. It would be easier for someone like Steve Jobs to pay zero, as most of his wealth was in company stock, which isn't taxed until sold and may never be sold, as in Steve Jobs' case, Miller said. But Romney's arrangement with Bain is different. He would have earned management fees and when Bain sold the underlying companies that it invested in, Romney would have been subject to tax on his share. "It's possible he paid very little in taxes, but I find it hard to believe that he paid none," Miller said. Joshua Kamerman, a lawyer and CPA in New York who is president of an eponymous firm, agreed. He told Salon that while it's theoretically possible for Romney to have had zero tax liability for 10 years, Reid's claim is "preposterous." Charitable donations can shield up to only 50 percent of tax liability, while other means can lower the rate. But to pay nothing, Romney would have to sustain business operating losses, Kamerman said. The IRS lets people carry over losses for up to 20 years until they make a profit from which to deduct them. But Kamerman said this is almost certainly not the case for Romney, whom he said Reid is just trying to "embarrass." "It's just as unlikely that Romney had no income at all for 10 years and thus didn't file any returns," he said.
Maybe, but probably not. David Miller, a tax attorney with Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP in New York, told Salon that knowing what we know about Romney's tax returns, it's "highly unlikely" that he paid nothing. It would be easier for someone like Steve Jobs to pay zero, as most of his wealth was in company stock, which isn't taxed until sold and may never be sold, as in Steve Jobs' case, Miller said. But Romney's arrangement with Bain is different. He would have earned management fees and when Bain sold the underlying companies that it invested in, Romney would have been subject to tax on his share. "It's possible he paid very little in taxes, but I find it hard to believe that he paid none," Miller said.
Joshua Kamerman, a lawyer and CPA in New York who is president of an eponymous firm, agreed. He told Salon that while it's theoretically possible for Romney to have had zero tax liability for 10 years, Reid's claim is "preposterous." Charitable donations can shield up to only 50 percent of tax liability, while other means can lower the rate. But to pay nothing, Romney would have to sustain business operating losses, Kamerman said. The IRS lets people carry over losses for up to 20 years until they make a profit from which to deduct them. But Kamerman said this is almost certainly not the case for Romney, whom he said Reid is just trying to "embarrass." "It's just as unlikely that Romney had no income at all for 10 years and thus didn't file any returns," he said.
RNC PR BS. But enough with the cheap shots.
Unfortunately for hyperventilating Mr. Priebus -- and apparently you also, by extension -- the only one who can really prove Harry Reid wrong is Mitt Romney himself. And thus far, he's declined to do so, which only lends further credence to Reid's contention that there's something in the Mittmeister's tax returns that he doesn't want anyone to see.
Speaking for myself only, I'm not at all worried or concerned that Romney is hiding something from me, because (1) I'm a declared Democrat, and (2) I've never believed a word he's said anyway. It's quite obvious that I have no intention of voting for him, so I'm not really the type of voter he should be worried about, because he never had me in the first place.
Rather, the people Romney's actually deceiving with this painful tax return kabuki -- and the people the RNC should really be worried about -- are the voters who constitute the GOP's base.
It's long been apparent that these voters aren't at all that enamored with Romney as it is, given his totally lackluster performance in the primaries against some truly mediocre competition. If he accepts the nomination and the bottom subsequently falls out of his campaign because of his tax charade, the consequences could be devastating downticket for the GOP. It's not that these Republican voters will turn around and vote for President Obama and the Democrats, but that they'll throw up their hands in frustration and stay home in November.
Aloha. Parent
...the people Romney's actually deceiving...are the voters who constitute the GOP's base
The target would probably be the swing voter - those who are still able to be convinced one way or the other.
Dubya Mitt Rmoney's supporters are more-likely to rationalize the tax issue with some statement along these lines:
If you knew a thing or two about taxes you would realize there is a huge difference between not paying and not filing. ...you can technically say he didn't pay any tax, even though he didn't owe any tax to begin with.
You know, deflecting the issue away from paying zero taxes on a huge income to not owing any taxes...on a huge income.
My first suspicion was that Dubya Mitt Rmoney does not want to release the most-recent tax return on which he paid zero taxes (or, possibly, received a tax credit leading to a refund) on a larger-than-the-average-American income. That doesn't mean 10 years of zero-tax, but it would look pretty suspicious to release 9 years of returns with a 1-year gap.... Parent
Sometimes in the Democratic party it takes somebody with some sort of guts to stand up...
Hm. Ya think?
Aside from that, he sure seems to be enjoying this, doesn't he? Something tells me he's been havin' a high ol' time pushin' Mary Matalin's conservative buttons on this one, and on so many more.
Maybe somebody should ask him why not.
It should also be noted that the 2008 McCain campaign did a pretty thorough job when it came to its opposition research on Romney. Parent
Do you really think it was because of something allegedly in Mitten's tax returns? Parent
Sometimes, the correct choice can be "All of the above." Parent
That's gotta leave a mark. Parent
But it's certainly possible that they saw enough or looked carefully enough to know they just didn't want to go there. For all we know, just the size of the numbers on the first page was enough to deep-six Romney as a running mate if what they were looking to market was a VP of the people.
As long as Romney withholds the returns, people will be free to speculate about what's in them; you'd think he'd want to have gotten all of that behind him instead of having it right in everyone's face as they come down to the last three months of the campaign. From a political perspective, it's just about as dumb as it's possible to be. Not exactly a harbinger of good news for what life with President Romney would be like.
Obama's not exactly running away with the election, but on this issue, I think he's playing it exactly right. Will that be enough for him to sew up the election? Too soon to tell, but I don't think he should count on it. Parent
I stand by my earlier remarks, Harry Reid is telling the truth. Parent
Sen. John McCain said on Tuesday he can "personally vouch" there was nothing disqualifying in the 23 years' worth of tax returns that Mitt Romney submitted to his team in 2008, when he was vetted for a vice presidential spot. "Everything was fine," McCain told reporters on Capitol Hill. "I can personally vouch for the fact that there was nothing in his tax returns that would in any way be disqualifying for him to be a candidate."
"Everything was fine," McCain told reporters on Capitol Hill. "I can personally vouch for the fact that there was nothing in his tax returns that would in any way be disqualifying for him to be a candidate."
But, embarrassing enough to the point of being politically "Disqualifying?" Parent
at least the taxes Romney paid or did not pay have some relevance to the issues going on in the counrty right now.
Lets not build a simple political attack into anything greater please. Is it a good way to attack Romney, yes.
But him refusing to not release them is evidence of nothing, and he is under no obligation to do so. It's just dumb politics. The country is in a bad spot and saying his taxes matter in regards to whats facing the country going forward is laughable, my god.
There is a difference between recognizing an attack is beneficial and accepting it be played and enveloping yourself in it and carrying it forward.
Romney and the Republicans will never have my pity, but smears will never have my support. Parent
Reid's attack is still a baseless smear. Parent
Was that a serious question? Parent
The accusation itself is not evidence that it is true. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
This is fairly basic stuff here. Parent
Bottom line: Reid doesn't have to prove anything. The onus is on Romney to disprove -- which he could do quite easily, if his tax returns show otherwise, and if he provided them for perusal. Parent
Bottom line: Reid doesn't have to prove anything
Actually since he is making the accusation, yes he does.
The onus is on Romney to disprove -- which he could do quite easily, if his tax returns show otherwise, and if he provided them for perusal.
To say that Romney can easily disprove the charge by releasing his tax returns does not mean the onus is on him.
I have two fairly straight and easy questions:
1- What evidence is there to back-up Reid's charge? There has not even been a secondary source for the claim, or even a reporter saying they've heard similar stories. So what evidence is there to support the charge?
2- If Speaker Boehner where to announce tomorrow that he heard from a former White House official that President Obama was clinically depressed and taking medication, would the onus be on Obama to show he wasnt?
You frequent a law blog and are actually writing these posts? I'm blown away. Parent
Sure, complaining that Reid is playing unfair, dirty politics might be a good tactic for Romney, but it might not. After all, Republicans have done quite well with dirty politics of all sorts in recent years.
In the final analysis, your points are completely irrelevant, IMO. Parent
That he has not disclosed everything is evidence of nothing, that people take issue with what he has disclosed is also evidence of nothing. There was a very specific charge made by Reid, it is to that charge that I speak.
Secondly the Presidents health is the public's concern. People had concerns with McCains advanced age, for example.
It wouldn't be reasonable to ask Obama to disclose medical information, based on a rumor, because there is no corrobating evidence.
I dont think the Left should be so gung-ho about this type of politics. Accept it, yes. Let Harry play it out and do the damage it will do to Romney, yes. But do not pretend it is anything other than what it is, a baseless attack. Parent
Romney is vulnerable here, and no amount of carping about unfair tactics will change that.
Are you intentionally ignoring what I'm writing?
Yes hes vulnerable. Yes nothing will change that.
I am not attempting to change that. Please go find someone who is and reply to them. Parent
Thats even more ridiculous than the guy saying the onus is on the accused to disprove allegations. Parent
This is the politics of beating Republicans at their own game - and I get that they don't like it, but they have no room - not even a millimeter - to complain about a tactic they use all the time - proudly, and usually justify by invoking the voters' right to know.
The ugly political culture in which we live now is one where anonymous sources are more prevalent than the ones willing to go on the record. Where the administration leaks classified information that serves its political goals, and wants to prosecute leakers who don't. The chances of your finding a named source for much of anything these days are about as good as your chances of winning the lottery, or being struck by lightning.
I don't like it any more than anyone else does. But let's not kid ourselves that this isn't how the game is played, or that Republicans have any moral high ground on which to stand here. They don't.
My suggestion would be to suck it up, man up, grow up.
Romney has a choice to make: release the tax returns or keep stonewalling. If he's standing on principle, he may need it to keep him company for his next gig of sitting on the sidelines. If he has something to hide, or something to explain, the longer he waits, the closer we get to November, the deeper the hole he will have dug for himself.
That's the politics of this - and right now, it's not working in Romney's favor. Parent
I mean, I agree with everything you said, not a word of that contradicts my point.
This is politics as it is played now, do not attempt to act like it is anything more than what it is. <-- That's it. Thats my main point. The discussion beyond that with shoe, and in particular the post you are replying to, is attempting to show how wrong shoe is in believing it is the job of the accuser to disprove baseless allegations. It is wrong to say the onus is on the accused, and it doesnt stop being wrong simply because the accused is a Republican. Parent
It is possible to support a candidate/party and not lose sight of right and wrong, and I think some people have lost sight of that, and the embrace of this attack as something more than just politics (by some), is a sign of it. It's something we should be mindful of...as we (deservedly) beat Romney over the head with it. Parent
All irrelevant, IMO.
Successful, or not, the only point I'm interested in.
I believe there are time when the end really does justify the means. I further believe that this is one of those times. I believe the Republicans of today are toxic mutants of a major political party and have lost the privilege of being considered a legitimate "opposition" party, with simply a different point of view and/or philosophy.
You need do nothing more than read a couple of paragraphs by Mike Lofgren to understand that today's Republican Party is the enemy of 99% of the American people, and the enemy of any semblance our country has of being the representative democracy our founders envisioned. I don't think it's hyperbole to state they're also enemies of Mankind as well. Whether an action is to be considered "right, or wrong" must be taken in context of what the stakes are.
I happen to believe the stakes are nothing less than the life or death of our 250 year experiment with a Constitution based Democracy. One party wants to take us into the realm of a Plutocracy/Aristocracy, where all power and wealth resides within a tiny minority (Serfdom for the rest,) and the other wants to lead us with a flawed, inept, corrupt, yet not quite irreversibly unfixable form of Democracy.
So, taking thing in context, imagine what a well-placed bullet in 1939 might have meant for 50 million soon to be dead souls? Should "right/wrong" have been a consideration then?
For once, I'll borrow a phrase from the Tea Party. I want to "take back our country" from those who want to destroy it. If a statement by an aging Senator from Utah assists in that endeavor, the last thing I care about is whether it was "right or wrong." If it was successful, it was "Right." Parent