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Was The Iraq War Worthwhile? Ask An American

Jeffrey Goldberg writes:

Was the Iraq Invasion Worthwhile? Ask an Iraqi

In a recent interview with the New York Times, the writer Toni Morrison said, “I dare you to tell me a sane reason we went to Iraq.” Her request is not unreasonable.

Indeed. Does Goldberg then provide a "reasonable" answer? Not in my mind. Instead he decides that to answer Morrison's question of whether the Iraq war was worthwhile for the United States, he needed to ask an Iraqi:

One thing I’ve noticed over the past two weeks, however, is that Iraqis themselves haven’t often been asked about their opinion of the war. Iraq, after President George W. Bush failed to accomplish his mission, was a place of violence and chaos, but before the invasion, it was a charnel house. Saddam Hussein’s regime murdered as many as 1 million Iraqis in its years in absolute power. Many Americans forget this. Most Iraqis don’t.

I sympathize with those Iraqis who believe their fate is better because of the Iraq Debacle. But this is not the right question for the United States to ask. Today the President unveiled a budget with deep cuts in government social safety net spending. I think it is fair to ask them if Iraq was worthwhile? Would we rather have spent the money on the Iraq Debacle or on our social safety net? Will Jeffrey Goldberg ask them if the Iraq War was "worthwhile?"

In 2005, I wrote a post about this same argument:

In the end, here is Packer's problem::
Anyone who spent time in Iraq during those months [after the fall of Baghdad] can't forget the longing of Iraqis for a simple, ordinary life, and their openness to those of us who came from outside. That memory, and the knowledge that, hidden now behind the screen of unbelievable violence, those same Iraqis are still there, makes it very difficult for me to write the whole thing off. (Emphasis mine.) Well, this is aiming to sound admirable - to caring about the plight of the Iraqi people. And Packer no doubt does. But what does his empathy mean in practical terms of policy making? How does wanting to do something relate to the ability to do something and the wisdom of attempting to do something? This is his essential failing and he still fails to understand.
General Wesley Clark says "If you can do good, you should." The key word is "can." And "how" of course. The idea that anybody in the political discussion would not want a free and democratic Iraq is just nonsense. Everybody wants that. I want a free and democratic China too. I don't see Packer advocating a war of liberation there. This kind of sentimentalization of the extraordinarily bad judgment shown by the liberal hawks is exactly the wrong approach to discussing the issue. If their mindset remains mired in this approach, they simply are not credible to discuss the issues of foreign policy that require discussion. This sentimentalization approach of Packer's is reinforced in this passage:
Last night I received an e-mail from a soldier I met in Iraq in July 2003 who is now agonizing over the way forward. He wrote: "I hoped all the way until March 2003 that we wouldn't go to war with Iraq. I'd heard all the arguments for it, many of which were good...I just didn't think that fighting a war to fix a problem that had always been a problem and wasn't particularly worse than any number of similar problems around the world was worth alienating so many of our friends and reducing our esteem around the world. And I thought the post-war activities would be miserable in that environment.
You were right soldier. And you left out one other thing. We were not capable of fixing the situation. But now the sentimentalization intrudes:
Once I exited the C-17, though, my views changed drastically. Particularly after meeting and befriending so many Iraqis as they, it seemed to me, woke up disoriented from a generation-long nightmare, I began to believe very deeply in the morality of what I was involved in there, if not the wisdom of the policy that brought it all about.
Hold up. It is NOT moral to adopt an unwise policy that does more harm than good even if the intention of the policy is moral. Indeed, it is IMMORAL in my view. And this is the fundamental point. Packer wants to grasp the mantle of the "right thing to do" even if unwise. I categorically reject that. It was the wrong thing to do and not moral.

Weird to see Goldberg regurgitate this nonsense.

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  • Display: Sort:
    No. Same question re (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 12:44:02 PM EST
    John Kerry's moving U.S. toward war in Syria:

    BBC

    Ask (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by lentinel on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 02:36:18 PM EST
    an Iraqi whose family was killed by American bombs during the "shock and awe" orgy whether it was worth it.

    You are rushing forward ... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 04:47:22 PM EST
    ... to seize the moral high ground in a debate that's not presently on the table.

    If you had read his post thoroughly, BTD has re-framed Jeffrey Goldberg's question from one which asks whether the morally right thing to do regarding Saddam Hussein's disposition as Iraq's leader was to depose him militarily, to one that should otherwise prompt us to re-examine our own national priorities, both domestic and international.

    Specifically, in the immediate wake of our recent military withdrawal from Iraq, and in the face of further prospective cuts to our country's social safety net, do the American people now consider the Iraq War in retrospect to have been worth its overall cost.

    BTD argues -- correctly, in my honest opinion -- that Goldberg is effectively sidestepping Toni Morrison's original challenge and trying to shift the debate to a more comfortable ground of his own choosing. Thus, Goldberg offers an emotional argument in favor of our invasion of Iraq as the morally right thing to do at the time. For your part, you're rising to Goldberg's bait, by responding with an equally emotional argument against that same invasion.

    And for my part, I'd have to conclude that both those arguments are equally irrelevant, because neither of you are addressing BTD's key point. Rather, it is the American people themselves -- not the Iraqis -- who must now confront the fiscal consequences of our recent overseas military commitments in southern Asia, and grapple with their adverse impact on our own domestic socio-economic policies here at home.

    And for that particular purpose, Iraqi public opinion regarding our invasion and occupation of their country -- whether pro or con -- matters not one iota.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Iraqi (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by lentinel on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 06:54:46 PM EST
    public opinion of the US does matter.

    Economic devastation is not the only thing we have suffered.

    It is a moral devastation.


    Parent

    One (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 05:18:04 AM EST
    and a half trillion dollars for those two fiascos: Afghanistan and Iraq. So far.

    And that is the least of it.

    And the moral devastation of our passive acceptance of torture, unlimited detention without charge or trial, warrantless wiretaps, warrantless interception of emails, the hell of Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, the immunization of tortures from prosecution and the prosecution of those who revealed them, the immunization of Bush and Cheney and Rice and Powell from prosecution, the loss of our civil liberties, the complete meltdown of the two party system, the increasingly neglectful treatment of our veterans, the prosecution of Bradley Manning for revealing war crimes, the deliberate killing of American citizen "suspects", kill lists, a government who told us to protect ourselves from chemical warfare by putting plastic and duct tape on our windows....

    And all this to make us "safe".

    And the opinion of Iraqis and others in the region about us matters. It matters if we are liked or hated, feared or considered as nuts with guns.


    Parent

    The (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 05:31:02 AM EST
    American people must confront the fiscal and moral consequences of that invasion.

    It would be helpful if we had a government that was also interested in doing so instead of one that is determined to protect the guilty.

    It is weird the way everything is ad hominem with you.

    If I talk about the obvious-to-everybody dishonestly and duplicity of the Bush administration (with the aid of a rudderless Democratic party and a Hearst-press mentality), you say I, personally, am out to "seize the moral high ground".

    Seize what from whom?

    What we did disgusts me.
    I feel it as a betrayal of our fundamental values.

    You got a problem with that?

    Parent

    Very good Donald (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 07:34:01 PM EST
    Much better than my post.

    Parent
    Good Golly... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 02:44:14 PM EST
    ...now he cares what the people in Iraq think ?  That is fricken hilarious.
    Why doesn't he actually poll them instead of making the claim that he knows ?

    Hope he remembers that 2-4 million people left or were displaced, which is 7-15% of the population and the estimated 1.5 million Iraqis not alive to cast their votes.

    That 3.5-5.5 Million 'nays', or very close to it without even asking anyone in Iraq.

    I know this wasn't the point, but if someone is going to claim what people think, they should do some sort of polling and analysis, not just toss out what they believe, especially when it matches the point they are trying to prove.  He is not Iraqi, he does not live in Iraq, yet he believes he knows what they want(ed).  That's Rumsfeldidous, when one can't think straight because the weigh of their own hubris cuts off the blood to the brain.

    And what numbers are enough to call it worthwhile, 30%, 50%. 70% ?  Majority doesn't rule in this case, does it ?  But I suspect, whatever number a poll provided would be adequate.  So in that regard, a poll would be pointless.  But for me, i would like to know what Iraqis think, not what Goldberg thinks they think.

    And lastly, polling the people who paid for it in gold and death is not something to blow off.  The only reason to not include them in the argument is because the numbers wouldn't support his ridiculous point.  If Americans supported, he would screaming that as validation, no doubt he has in the past.

    It's not just the money (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 04:46:03 PM EST
    It's the rapidity with which the money is allotted for wars of choice, and the sloth with which it is allotted for humane things at home. This question represents a psychological paradigm that, on a national level, we have still not cured ourselves of. And the fact that as a nation sovereign in its own currency we cannot ever go financially broke, this is proof that what really makes us bankrupt as a nation in a fiat economy are our ethical choices, not our financial ones. Money is artificial, human beings are real. The latter bleeds and dies, the former is merely a prop in a larger drama.

    I guess (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 06:33:13 PM EST
    when you cut to the chase, you could say we are going to be living with the humongous mistakes of George W. Bush for quite a while. I really wish Obama had decided to really find out what went on there with Bush, Cheney etc. but he foolishly decided to "turn the page" and now we may never know.

    They (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 05:20:04 AM EST
    turned the page on the manner in which the Vietnam war was foisted upon us by agenda-driven crazy people - and promoted by the media.

    So, they were free to do it all over again.

    And they are free to do so again.

    And they will.

    Parent

    More "they" (none / 0) (#28)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 10:17:39 AM EST
    Are you using the amorphous "they" to denote "the Establishment" or "the Military/Industrial Complex" or other general reference of the standard "Powers-That-Be" or something else?  The reason I ask is because:  if there is a more specific "they," how we react in terms of redress can/could be very different than a society's reaction to the periodic military excursions & wars that stain human history.  If, for example, our deceitful invasion of Iraq is yet another Vietnam or 1890s Spanish American War (or Eurpean Crimea or English Boer War or any of a long, long list) or variations on an XYZ Affair, then a long drawn-out national criminal investigation & years long rehash of Cheney/Wolfowitz & the gang would only waste more time, money, & finite efforts that could better be spent in so many areas.

    The disgust that you feel & so genuinely express about our rotten sojourn in Iraq is shared by many people--myself included; tho, lentinel, we all eventually arrive at the famous fork in the road.  For me, history will have to render judgement on the Iraq "war" and it's purveyors...in the meantime, as the years churn on, let's glean as a society what we can and watch how we step as a country with that in mind.

    Parent

    By (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:18:21 AM EST
    they, I mean our political leaders.

    In the past, that would apply to any government official in a position to bring Johnson and his nutty friends to the bar of justice for claiming there had been an attack on us in the Gulf of Tonkin. 50,000 dead young Americans and countless of Vietnamese.

    That would apply to candidates running for high public office.

    It would apply to each individual in the media responsible for turning what should be a critical force into a propaganda arm of a rogue government.

    Nowadays, it would apply to Obama and his nutty friends who declare that we should "move on" rather than confront in court, like the Nuremberg trials, Bush and Cheney for foisting their agenda on us through lies and brute force.

    They killed hundreds of thousands and helped bankrupt us, financially and morally. And they are free to roam around, paint, or do interviews with pathetic "journalists" because no one will directly confront them.

    Old Kerry couldn't even do that when he had a chance to depose Bush in 2004. In the debates, he could have torn Bush a new youknowwhat. But he let him slither by - probably because he voted for the damned thing.

    It also applies to anyone else running for high public office.

    History has already decided what the war in Iraq was about.
    I believe history has similarly decided what the war in Afghanistan is about. History had decided that even before the invasions. Millions around the world had decided it a decade ago.

    It is only the political leadership of this country that will not own up to it.

    So we are doomed because they have the license to repeat the process.

    Parent

    Well said ... (none / 0) (#30)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:43:56 AM EST
    Yet, "history" by definition really hasn't had the last word at this date.  Not to take issue or be picky on this matter, but the "historians" that speak in future generations won't have done so in our lifetimes.

    Wondering what "historians" will say, I suspect that they won't be kind to the politicians that got us into the Iraq war.  Or, maybe, I hope that justice is rendered in the history books later this century. It is that potential learning & inculcation of the failings of luring us into war that suggests to me that we are not necessarily "doomed."  But then, as you know, I'm one of those optimists when it comes to the inevitable forward progression of humankind.  (Heck, it is either gonna be progression or regression...and, I'll go with ultimate good prevailing.:) )

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#31)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 01:36:32 PM EST
    hope you're right Christinep.

    Parent
    A different view point (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by koshembos on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 07:15:16 PM EST
    Had Bush not been the president, Iraq wouldn't have happened. Electing a novice with zero record of responsibility drags us into war. War is never good; at most it can be a necessary evil.

    Did we learn from the war? We didn't. We elected another cat in a bag that went to war in Afghanistan and now wants to tax the middle class and the poor.

    Will we ever learn?

    There seems to be an assumption (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 06:42:47 AM EST
    that without the huge cost of the wars, the safety net programs would not be on the chopping block, but I don't think that's a safe assumption.

    I mean, how far back do you want to go with this?  It was the attacks on 9/11 that were the justification for going in to Afghanistan, and that got us one step closer to Dick Cheney's pet project: going after Saddam.  They used 9/11 to fuel the war in Iraq, and to spawn a whole new national security juggernaut into which we threw billions - trillions? - of dollars.

    But were we a nation that was truly looking out for the least among us before all of that happened?  How many times did we have to have the debate about privatizing Social Security?  How many times did we have to hear about all the people living on the government's dime because they were too lazy to work?  How long, exactly, have Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson and their ilk been trying to destroy the safety net?

    No, I don't think any of the wars were worth it, and I especially don't think the weakening of our rights and the invasion of our privacy that was part of the package was worth it, either.

    But I don't kid myself that "if only" we hadn't had all those costs, we wouldn't be hearing that we "have no choice" now but to put the safety net on the chopping block, either.

    I think (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 01:48:17 PM EST
    you're right about that.

    There have been people out to gut Social Security for decades.
    And there were those who opposed it and Medicare from the start.

    But subjectively, when I read of the money squandered on those wars - one and a half trillion and counting - and then I read about veterans having to wait for forever to get appointments for medical care - and the people who need help... it just makes me angry. Perhaps it is irrational, but I can't help but feel some linkage.

    Maybe it is just the emergence of the worst of us - now reaching into the white house - the puritan side -  the bootstraps side - that we're witnessing.

    But the rationale for this squeezing of the poor and weak is being framed as "austerity" caused by lack of funds. I think, like you, that this is a load of ----, but it would help if that rationale had not been made available by the squandering of so much of our money on those fiendish and idiotic wars.

    Parent

    Deep cuts (1.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 12:33:17 PM EST
    .

    Today the President unveiled a budget with deep cuts in government social safety net spending.

    Please identify just one such "deep cut" along with this year's spending on it and the smaller amount in Obama's proposed budget.  

    .

    Oy (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by sj on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 12:54:33 PM EST
    Oy, again.

    Parent
    Oy means (none / 0) (#25)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 08:54:18 AM EST

    Oy must mean that when Obama proposes increased spending from 2013 to 2014 that is most accurately described as "deep cuts."

    Sorry for misunderstanding.

    Parent

    No apology necessary. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by sj on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 09:43:53 AM EST
    It seems that misunderstanding is your natural state of being and there is no reason for one to apologize for one's nature.  So carry on.

    Parent
    Wow... (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 01:29:17 PM EST
    ...that is probably the dumbest thing you have put in print, 'Oy' doesn't even come close, more like 'insert fork into eye socket and twist'.

    Parent
    Are you sure about that? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 03:26:52 PM EST
    Scott: "Wow that is probably the dumbest thing you have put in print[.]"

    Abdul's offered up some remarkably obtuse posts over the years. Then again, most if not all has been prompted by H8 radio / Fauks Nooz talking points, as was probably today's entry, so one could argue that his dimwittery is merely reflective of the original source material.

    Parent

    Uhhhhhmmm ... (none / 0) (#6)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 01:11:30 PM EST
    Please identify just one such "deep cut" along with this year's spending on it and the smaller amount in Obama's proposed budget.

    You do realize that referenced budget plan is for the 2014 fiscal year ...

    ... right?

    Parent

    Because it's a ridiculous question (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 08:29:42 PM EST
    Slightly decreasing the CPI for social security is not a "deep cut".  Cutting social security benefits by 20-30 percent in one fell swoop is a deep cut.

    That's nice that you think so, but I'm a little more concerned with the millions of seniors struggling to meet even their basic needs.  When you're living on the margin, a cut doesn't need to be immediate (or 20-30%) to be "deep".

    Parent

    False dilemma (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by sj on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 09:46:40 AM EST
    Slightly decreasing the CPI for social security is not a "deep cut".  Cutting social security benefits by 20-30 percent in one fell swoop is a deep cut.

    As if those are the only two options.

    Parent
    Was the Lybian war worth it? (none / 0) (#1)
    by redwolf on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 12:21:34 PM EST
    I'm not seeing a difference in outcomes between Iraq and Libya beyond the much lower price tag for Libya.

    No (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 12:35:27 PM EST
    Pretty sure that was the point (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 01:29:39 PM EST
    I'm not seeing a difference in outcomes between Iraq and Libya beyond the much lower price tag for Libya.

    The question posed was whether the Iraq War was "worth it", in terms of the huge amount of money we spent (not to mention lives) - $800 billion+.

    There really is no comparison.

    Parent

    An Iraqi POV (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 10:50:37 AM EST
    Riverbend is back after a looooong hiatus.

    What Iraqis learned:

    April 9, 2013 marks ten years since the fall of Baghdad. Ten years since the invasion. Since the lives of millions of Iraqis changed forever. It's difficult to believe. It feels like only yesterday I was sharing day to day activities with the world. I feel obliged today to put my thoughts down on the blog once again, probably for the last time....

    We learned that you can be floating on a sea of oil, but your people can be destitute. Your city can be an open sewer; your women and children can be eating out of trash dumps and begging for money in foreign lands.

    We learned that justice does not prevail in this day and age. Innocent people are persecuted and executed daily. Some of them in courts, some of them in streets, and some of them in the private torture chambers.

    We are learning that corruption is the way to go. You want a passport issued? Pay someone. You want a document ratified? Pay someone. You want someone dead? Pay someone.

    We learned that it's not that difficult to make billions disappear.....



    Speaking of long hiatus... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 11:19:26 AM EST
    squeaky!  Long time brother, long time...good to see ya.

    Parent
    Well... (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 11:52:28 AM EST
    Not really back, but the anniversary post from riverbend sent me back to when and why I got hooked on talkleft and the blogosphere.

    Valerie Plame, Iraq War, BushCo all the great commenters, a community of like minded and some not so likeminded....  all were fascinating to me, causes for activism...  

    after the election, or the year up to the election and the years of Democrats, and liberals for lack of a better term, became less interesting for me, not to mention my own feeling burnt out.

    I am busy with music, art, and cooking, lot's of t'ai chi..   not time to do it all...  

    I do check in to see y'all kdog, MileHi. Jeralyn, BTD.. et al..  but these days I do not have the time or energy to get involved with commenting..

     but, keep it up. I enjoy seeing your comments, and reading the posts..  TL still rocks!..

    Parent

    yes, Squeaky (none / 0) (#39)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 14, 2013 at 02:47:11 AM EST
    it's good to see you.

    Parent
    squeaky! (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 11:21:20 AM EST
    Good to see you back.  It has been what, about 3 years?

    Parent
    Squeaky, nice to see a post from you (none / 0) (#37)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 12:24:43 PM EST
    after a very loong time. Hope that you will keep posting.

    Tell you the truth, (none / 0) (#38)
    by NYShooter on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 09:33:54 PM EST
    I was afraid to ask............."where's squeaky?"