home

Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 12:06:58 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

It's a jail day for me. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

< George Zimmerman Hearing: June 7th | Saturday Morning Open Thread >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Friday Open Thread | 62 comments (62 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment

    CONSCIOUS vs. SUBCONSCIOUS, vol. 26 (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 12:49:14 PM EST
    TGIF, y'all. (link)

    And a link to Vol. 25... (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 12:50:55 PM EST
    ...which I put up in the NSA/Verizon/Spying thread, cuz it was a riff on that. (link)

    Parent
    Vermont (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 01:55:41 PM EST
    decriminalizes possession of small amounts of marijuana.
    Interesting comment on NSA (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 02:00:54 PM EST
    If the programs needed secrecy to succeed, will NSA shut them down now? If not, did they ever need be secret? Or did I just blow your mind?  - Matt Apuzzo (AP)

    Reason says Obama wanted it kept secret so he could do what he wanted without real over site.   Congress was all to willing to play along so this is not a partisan issue.

    This is an ever expanding government issue.

    "Words matter," sez the Prez; (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 02:15:23 PM EST
    Empty words matter even less.

    Parent
    President Obama says (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 02:39:47 PM EST
    he welcomes this debate and thinks it is healthy for our democracy.  He also said he does not welcome the leak that initiated this democratically healthy debate--a debate that will have to be made with a severe handicap on the citizen side because the "balance" between safety and the constitution is struck by an internal mechanism that we are not going to be told about that assures no violation of rights or liberties.

    And, besides, Congress knows all about everything so see your elected representatives if you do not like it, not the president.

    Senator Feinstein who as chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee explained her position in what the NYT editorial called "absurd," including her acknowledgement that she actually did not know how the data being collected was being used.  

    And, the vice Chair, Sexby Chamblis of Georgia, likes the program because we have gathered information on "bad guys", which is as informative as Clint Eastwood discussing matters with his empty chair.  The "Intelligence' committee needs to be re-named.  Let's have a contest.

    Parent

    Charlie Pierce makes a good point, (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 03:02:07 PM EST
    in his inimitable way:

    ...The American people are not being asked to "trade" their civil liberties. They are being asked to surrender them, for all practical purposes, permanently.

    Civil liberties are not something you get to "trade," not least because they don't all belong to you. They belong to me, too, and to the woman at the next table here at the Commonwealth Avenue Starbucks -- Oh, c'mon, you knew where I was anyway, NSA guys. -- and to the four people who just walked down the street past the big plate-glass window. You give yours away, you're giving mine away, too, whether I want you to do so or not. Therefore, we all surrender those civil liberties. We do not trade them because we don't get anything back. And it's not like we can cut another deal later to get them back.

    We at least should be honest about this. We aren't making a square deal with an equal partner here. We are committing ourselves to be less free. We did it with drugs, when people got us frightened of shadows on the wall, and then we did it with terrorism, when real events occurred. We did it with Communists way back in the 1920's and the 1950's, and with the French during the administration of John Fking Adams, for god's sake. We decide to be less free.  And I say "we," because, frankly, outside of the usual Obama-bashers and a handful of people like me who were yelling about this stuff way back in the day, I'm not seeing a political groundswell to take action to remedy the situation. (Are you going to vote for a presidential candidate next time around who campaigns on the platform that he will weaken the office? Good luck with that.) There is going to be a lot of noise for a while and then, maybe, in 2016, we'll elect a Republican and hardly anyone will care any more. We are a less free people. We are a people who have decided, en masse, and through our choice of leaders, to be a less free people. We should at least own that, and not talk about "trading" things that were not ours to give away.

    Next time someone tells us this - that these massive data collection programs that are more invasive than stink bugs or cicadas or kudzu are the tradeoff for security - we really need to tell them to just fk off.

    As for the president's comments, I'm sure he does welcome the debate, because in the end, it's just a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing, but mighty handy for distraction purposes.

    I don't think the people who purport to represent us would recognize the truth if it walked up and introduced itself, and I sure don't think they have any intention of sharing it with us.

    Fk 'em all.

    Parent

    I guess I missed it . . . (none / 0) (#15)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 03:34:14 PM EST
    when were we even "asked"?

    Parent
    You had me right up (none / 0) (#24)
    by sj on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 07:06:00 PM EST
    to
    This is an ever expanding government issue.
    This is a corruption issue, imo. Perpetrated by the morally bankrupt and financially wealthy. I agree with Don. If you want to curb this start with campaign finance reform.

    Parent
    And in a lighter vein..... (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Zorba on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 02:06:47 PM EST
    I just made a batch of strawberry jam.  The strawberries at the farm stand looked great!  I will probably get more tomorrow and make another batch.
    I can't wait until our sour cherries ripen.  There aren't going to be as many as we would have liked, but I should be able to get at least one, if not two, batches of cherry jelly out of them.
    It doesn't look as though our peaches are going to do diddly this year, unfortunately.  I may have to check out the peaches at the farm stand at a  later time.  If they look (and taste) good, I want to make peach jam, and if I am feeling ambitious, peach nectar.
    I hope our grapes do well this year, too.

    I'm in Vienna now (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by observed on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 02:40:07 PM EST
    First time. The weather is a bit cool for June, but not bad for walking around.
    The Historical Art Museum of Vienna was impressive---it's monumental.
    I didn't know Rubens painted so much:)
    I saw a great little Pieta in one of the smaller alcoves. I wish I had gotten the the artist's name. I liked it because the grief of the mourners was so personal, intimate.
    I saw--and thank god I didn't miss that little side room--Archemboldo's fabulous portraits.
    Of course, Velasquez, Durer, and on and on.
    I really liked the Baroque landscape paintings of Vienna. I believe Belotto was the name of one I especially liked.
    Then there was room after room of gilt and bejeweled "stuff". Man, the Hapsburgs were rich!!

    Today I went to the Vienna Art House, where I saw an exhibit of Linda McCartney's photography, and a separate exhibit of the art of F. Hundertwasser.
    Both were quite fine.

    And on and on:)
    There's a tiny bit more culture in Vienna than Astana. One small surprise: as  a caveat, I haven't eaten in any fine restaurants, but the general level of restaurant food on the streets seems quite poor. I've eaten better in small town US cities, and even in Astana

    Do make a point to go (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by scribe on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 04:41:01 PM EST
    outside the downtown and see things like the Gloriette and Schoennbrunn.  Well worth the subway/tram ride and the park surrounding the palace is a great place to sit and people-watch on a sunny day.  Especially if you can keep quiet and watch the Americans make fools of themselves in their loud, abrasive manner.

    I recall Vienna fondly.  I especially liked the way the early morning sun this time of year made the pale ochre of the stucco light up in tones of gold.

    Most of the decent to good food is in sitdown places;  even a decent neighborhood Kneipe will be better than a street vendor.  It helps if you try to speak German, though the Viennese still think of themselves as God's Gift and aren't as welcoming to people trying to speak German as are, say, Germans.  That, and the beer is not as good as over the border in Bavaria.  No strict Reinheitsgebot.

    How is the flooding treating that area?

    Parent

    I loved Vienna when I was there. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 05:07:51 PM EST
    As the outsized capital of a now-small country, it reflects the glory days of the Hapsburgs in the 18th century -- which of course was perfectly glorious for the Hapsburgs and their friends, and probably miserable for nearly everyone else who lived under them.

    If you haven't done so yet and have the time, I highly recommend that you visit to the beautiful Belvedere Palace complex, which was the home of perhaps my favorite character from that period, Prince Eugene of Savoy. Prince Eugene was a flamboyantly effeminate (and undoubtedly gay) man whose personal proclivities provided an endless amount of fodder for court gossips, but also served to mask his extraordinary abilities as one of the premier military strategists in European history.

    It was under Prince Eugene's remarkable leadership that the Austrian Empire established itself as a major military power, the Ottoman Turks' expansion into central Europe was first blunted and then curtailed, Hungary was liberated and absorbed into the Hapsburg realms, and French King Louis XIV's designs upon Italy, Germany and Spain were thwarted.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I do remember good food (none / 0) (#30)
    by christinep on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 08:44:55 PM EST
    Especially desert & coffee at Demel's.  Also: A wonderful, still remembered dinner & sacher torte at the Hotel Sacher. (A bit expensive ... but, the memories have long outlived the cost.  And, since we couldn't get in -- even standing room to see Pavarotti in Aida those years ago as we waited in the rain for two hours -- the Sacher Hotel was one of the most special treats I can recall.)

    Also: Beethoven's living quarters, as a museum, was quite good.  St. Stephen's Church is singular.  A stroll in the park near the Strauss statue offers a glimpse into local relaxation as well as your own.  Oh ... and, hat shops.  If you fancy a good hat, what a trip!

    I'm really wanting to return.  My fantasy is to hear the New Year's Day concert there, while clapping in time to the Radetsky March.

    Parent

    We were there this past September, it was so (none / 0) (#31)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 09:32:13 PM EST
    lovely.  I had read earlier today about flooding, hope all is well there.  I'm off tomorrow for a 10-day trip to Europe with my sister to celebrate her 60th birthday!  

    Parent
    "I gotcher change -- right here!" (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 03:17:10 PM EST
    How spoiled we became back in the so-called golden age of air travel, the 1970s through the early '90s -- and how resistant we've become in the face of changing competitive environments and evolving economic conditions:

    Anchorage Daily News | June 7, 2013
    Cold boarding: Fairbanks residents object to Alaska Air's turboprop plan - "A decision by Alaska Airlines to serve Fairbanks with turboprop airplanes instead of jets for service to Anchorage has launched a barrage of complaints from residents of Alaska's second-largest city, with many expressing their anger through social media. Much of the frustration focuses on the need to board the aircraft from outside, according to the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner.

    The fact of the matter is that in the age of steadily-escalating fuel prices, it makes perfect sense for Alaska Airlines to shift to fuel-efficient turboprops such as the Bombardier Q400 on short-haul routes of 500 miles or less. The newer generation of B737 aircraft has been designed primary as a medium to long-range carrier, and can really only be profitable on short-haul routes if they average a near-capacity complement of passengers per trip segment.

    Further, with six blades per propeller, the Q400 is much faster than the earlier generations of Dash-8s at 414 m.p.h., and the overall difference in flight time between Anchorage and Fairbanks will be negligible -- I mean, we're talking 55 minutes on a Q400, versus 50 minutes on a B737.

    Still, it's quite obvious that we do like our jets, if only because we've become quite used to them. When we were connecting to Albany via Newark a few weeks ago, we were on a United Q400, and we heard several frequent flyers complaining amongst themselves about United's decision to change from jet to turboprop service on that busy route.

    I suppose that's like me complaining about having had to fly recently between Honolulu and San Francisco on a B737, an aircraft which United inherited from Continental in large numbers and subsequently used to expand its existing service on its busy Hawaii-California routes. I just got used to widebody jets on flights to and from the islands, that's all. But air travel is an ever-evolving industry, and if we're going to continue flying, we best get used to all these changes and go with the flow.

    Aloha.

    Couldn't agree more (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 04:34:27 PM EST
    Of course I'm a pilot and like to get into tiny airplanes and feel the bumps so I'm biased.

    Parent
    My younger daughter loves to fly ... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 07:52:58 PM EST
    ... and has long wanted to be a pilot, at least since she was in middle school. I happen to think that particular skill would probably serve her very well, living as we do in a geographically remote island chain where people depend inordinately more upon air travel than do others elsewhere in the country. Now that she's 18, I'm willing to shell out for flying lessons (subject to spousal concurrence, of course), but I also want her to continue her college studies.

    Parent
    Flying is one of those things (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 10:45:05 PM EST
    You are either meant to do or not.

    I'd recommend signing her up and letting her take the first lesson.  

    They literally let you fly on the first day and she'll know quickly if it is something she wants to pursue.

    I was raised around airplanes so I always knew I wanted to get my license. Losing my medical has been a drag but I know I'll get back into it.

    There is really nothing like it.

    Parent

    The "bumps" (none / 0) (#43)
    by MKS on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:18:38 AM EST
    or turbulence during a flight, one flight in particular, is what gave me a fear of heights.   I am now very uncomfortable with balconies, etc.

    And the small planes go down seemingly all the time.    The big ones not so much.

    Parent

    The best explanation (none / 0) (#59)
    by Slado on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 03:37:57 PM EST
    I've heard is...

    Flying is very safe but very unforgiving.  Rarely does al single mistake lead to an accident.  Typically it is a series of mistakes.

    Parent

    1st. Qtr. of 2013 Saw Largest Wage Drop Ever (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 06:01:30 PM EST
    The first three months of 2013 saw wages fall 3.8 percent - the largest drop in hourly pay in the 65-year history of that statistic - despite an increase in worker productivity. With high unemployment freeing employers from fears that their employees will turn elsewhere, the U.S. recovery has been marked by a decoupling of rising productivity from stagnant wages.

    The gloomy milestone partly reflects the predominance of low-wage service jobs in the slow, steady streak of job growth since the recession. Increasing the minimum wage, as progressives in Congress hope to do, could help counter downward wage pressures at the bottom of the earnings ladder. link

    But not to worry

    CEO pay is up to record highs for the second year in a row, at $9.7 million per year on average in 2012. In fact, 121 percent of total income gains from 2009-2011 went to the top one percent of earners - meaning everyone else lost ground.
     
    Pitchforks ahoy! (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 06:23:35 PM EST
    Serfs up!

    Parent
    I don't have any tumbrels, (3.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Zorba on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 07:28:21 PM EST
    But I have a hay wagon.  Will that do in a pinch?
    Plus, I can start working a few names into my knitting........

    Parent
    Low wages, part-time work (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by shoephone on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 07:15:37 PM EST
    and general difficulty getting hired at 53, even after giving really good interviews, is the reason I decided to start my own business -- again. This will be my third time at the helm, and while I'm not looking forward to all the responsibility and the deep uncertainty of income, it's a move borne of necessity.

    But, hey, at least the CEO's are sitting pretty.

    99%=0
    1%=100.

    Parent

    Good luck (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 06:37:06 AM EST
    on your new business. I hope it turns out that God has forced you into great opportunity that you wouldn't have taken otherwise.

    Parent
    Thanks, both you and Dr. Molly (none / 0) (#50)
    by shoephone on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:48:13 AM EST
    People have been encouraging me on this one for years. I'm pretty much set up and ready to do the work. Just trying to solidify the marketing plan and get the website up! I don't expect much money for awhile. But at least it will be better than the temp retail jobs I've been doing lately, where the most enduring characteristic of the job is walking into the stockroom to find a threesome of middle managers   gossiping and b*tching about all the other employees...

    Parent
    Excited for you, shoe - even if this is (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Anne on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 01:06:04 PM EST
    an opportunity borne of necessity; maybe this is just the universe's way of putting you where you're supposed to be.

    Please keep us posted on your progress - want to give us any clues what you'll be doing?

    Parent

    Oh, so very, very much (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Zorba on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 01:12:25 PM EST
    Good luck to you, shoephone!  We're all pulling for you, and sending you many, many positive thoughts!

    Parent
    Best of luck shoephone (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 08:11:09 AM EST


    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#51)
    by shoephone on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:48:26 AM EST


    Parent
    Best of luck! (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by jbindc on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 03:39:29 PM EST


    Parent
    Good luck (none / 0) (#61)
    by sj on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:58:11 PM EST
    I wish you the best!

    Parent
    What's the (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 07:14:47 PM EST
    big deal about the domestic spying program recently revealed?

    Calm down everybody.
    Obama says that we have to experience some "inconvenience". Yep. That's what he called it. We get a little security, and get a little inconvenience as a trade-off. Take that Mr. Franklin.

    And what the h-ll. All the members of congress have been told about this. They just neglected to tell any of their constituents. But, hey. Nobody's perfect.

    As is his wont, our Bush look-alike sound-alike has once again expressed no displeasure about this Republican wet -dream.
    Just that we found out about it.
    "I don't welcome leaks," he said. "There's a reason these programs are classified."

    Classified from the voters that is.

    "I would support a filibuster." (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 04:04:48 AM EST
    Candidate Obama re pending FISA bill.

    Parent
    In 2008 (none / 0) (#39)
    by CoralGables on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 08:15:59 AM EST
    FISA passed the Senate 69-28. No shot at a meaningful filibuster with those totals.

    In 2012 it passed the Senate 73-23.

    It's safe to say a super majority of the Senate sees it as helpful in protecting the country no matter what the minority of us may think.

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#48)
    by lentinel on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:24:42 AM EST
    don't know about the motives of those voting for FISA.

    It just seems to me to be the herd mentality at work.

    Parent

    And he changed his mind (none / 0) (#42)
    by MKS on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:10:13 AM EST
    in June of 2008 as I recall.    

    Parent
    Senator Obama was absent (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 10:10:02 AM EST
    when the Senate voted.

    Parent
    lol, and he was so good at voting present" (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 10:11:41 AM EST


    Parent
    Nothing wrong in voting "present" (none / 0) (#49)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:29:22 AM EST
    if that option exists when you have strong concerns regarding voting either yay or nay. In the UN security council, if a permanent member does not fully agree with a proposed resolution but does not wish to cast a veto, it may choose to abstain, thus allowing the resolution to be adopted if it obtains the required number of nine favorable votes.
     The "abstain" vote in the UN or voting "present" are similar options, these options were created for good reasons.
     This whole notion that one has to vote either way or "you are either for us or against us" is idiotic. There will ofcourse be some people who will decry voting "present" as a third option for a politician they do not like but would like to exercise a third option in voting for a third third party or abstaining to vote when it comes to casting their own individual votes in elections. Some one has to sit these people down and explain to them the incongruity of their positions on voting issues.

    Parent
    His (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by lentinel on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:24:04 PM EST
    voting present, or managing to be elsewhere when there were votes on controversial issues, had nothing to do with any strong concerns about anything except his own ambition.

    Parent
    It (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by lentinel on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:21:13 AM EST
    seemed to me that his constant absences, unwillingness to take a stand on "controversial" issues, was already a red flag about Mr.O.

    Everyone seemed to know this about him and not know it at the same time.

    (In theatrical circles, I think this is called, "the willing suspension of disbelief.")

    Parent

    From 2008 forward it has been (none / 0) (#62)
    by MKS on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 10:21:01 PM EST
    apparent that Obama was not taking a progressive view of warrantless wiretapping and data mining....

    Parent
    His (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by lentinel on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:20:54 PM EST
    conservative bent was apparent well before 2008.

    His so-called electrifying speech at the 2004 Democratic convention told me all I needed to know about him.

    Parent

    Colorado counties talk secession (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 06:55:08 AM EST
    Commissioners from Morgan, Logan, Sedgwick, Phillips, Washington, Yuma and Kit Carson counties all expressed interest in the idea.  Many met earlier this week at a Colorado Counties Inc. conference to discuss the feasibility of forming a new state.

    Conway and Weld County commissioners Doug Rademacher and Mike Freeman told the Greeley Tribune they think a North Colorado would be a viable state.

    Oy.

    Some of the comments are pretty funny, though.

    Are there any ski areas (none / 0) (#53)
    by fishcamp on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 12:16:28 PM EST
    in those counties?  Can't remember but I doubt any counties with ski areas would be interested in any strange secession ideas.  

    Parent
    CONSCIOUS vs. SUBCONSCIOUS, vol. 27 (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Dadler on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 12:32:09 PM EST
    Saturday's Dadler comic. Have a great day, my good peeps. (link)

    Congratulations (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 12:23:29 PM EST
    to John Dingell (D-MI) on his 20,997 day of service in Congress, making him the longest serving member of Congress in the history of the United States.

    I believe Rep. Dingell is the only ... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 01:51:57 PM EST
    ... member left, whose congressional service predates the admission of Alaska and Hawaii into the Union.

    Parent
    No offense to Mr. Dingell (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 02:03:01 PM EST
    but there should be a limit on congressional terms.   His IMHO is an example of whats wrong with Washington.


    Parent
    I can tell you (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 02:22:18 PM EST
    That your argument is a valid one, and one put forth by many people.

    HOWEVER...

    I can tell you that in 1992 Michigan they (we - I lived there then) voted in term limits for our state representatives, and it's pretty much been a disaster.  Instead of "getting rid of old blood and bringing in new" all it has done is rearrange the chairs on the Titanic.  In that, some institutional knowledge gets lost and time and money is spent re-inventing the wheel.

    Or, what happens, is they manuever it so a family member (with the same last name) gets elected, so now we have lots of "dynasties" - that's not really change.

    More

    And yet, more

    LANSING -- Sold to the public 20 years ago as a way to attract "citizen lawmakers," term limits in Michigan are instead a launching pad for lobbyists, government officials and serial political candidates, a Free Press analysis shows.

    Seventy percent of those elected to term-limited offices cling to the political system after they leave, remaining as politicians or bureaucrats in government or parlaying their Capitol experience into jobs as lobbyists or consultants.

    "Lansing is like a big deck of cards," said Scott Shackleton, a Sault Ste. Marie Republican who served six years in the House and now manages a golf course. "Everyone is still there, but it's all shuffled and people are in different positions."

    Former lawmakers from both parties say officeholders get so focused on jockeying for their next move that they sometimes lose sight of why they are there.

    The Free Press analysis -- the first of its kind in Michigan -- supports research suggesting that term limits failed to attract a new breed of lawmaker. Of the 291 elected between 1992 and 2004, 177 -- 61% -- had held elected office elsewhere. Of the 114 who had not, at least 21 listed their previous occupations as legislative aides.

    The revolving door raises conflict-of-interest concerns. For example, two lawmakers -- one Democrat, one Republican -- who chaired the House committee that handles energy legislation went directly to work for utility companies when their terms expired.

    We have a mechanism for term limits in this country - they are called "ELECTIONS".

    Parent

    What jbindc said. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 04:16:10 PM EST
    Term limits proved a near-total disaster in California's governance, robbing the state legislature of both its veterans' experience and its elected members' institutional memory. What instead happened was that voters inadvertently empowered the unelected lobbyists and professional legislative staff who remained in Sacramento year in and year out and retained that aforementioned experience and memory, but who were not subject to the term limits law.

    Let me put it this way -- as a former longtime senior legislative staff officer, my job was to serve and advise my bosses, who are the elected legislative members. It's not to overshadow or supplant their efforts, or allow them to substitute my professional judgment for theirs.

    But when California voters passed the term limits law in 1990 to boot state assemblymembers out of office after only six years of service, with a subsequent lifetime ban on any further service, what they actually did was to ensure that:

    • At least one-third of each incoming legislature would be a fresh crop of rookies, who for the most part would have little or no idea upon their arrival in Sacramento about how the legislative process actually works; and
    • Those legislative veterans remaining in the State Assembly would have no more than four years' worth of legislative experience themselves.

    Now, how do you think a chair of the Assembly Budget Committee, with only two years' experience, is going to respond when delegated the responsibility for drafting the entire State Budget for the ensuing fiscal biennium? In all likelihood, he or she is going to turn to his or her resident committee staff, all civil servants who've been putting together budgets for years. Then, he or she is inevitably going to defer to that staff's professional judgment and will vote and enact accordingly, because he or she has little or no practical experience in such matters.

    In short, the people who are now calling the shots in the Budget Committee are people whom the voters did not elect and are not directly accountable to the electorate. My friend, who's the Chief Clerk of the Assembly Budget Committee, had more experience with state budgets than the chair and the next five senior members combined.

    Now, contrast that to the time when I worked on the Hawaii Senate Ways and Means Committee back in the late 1980s. The chair and my boss was Mamoru Yamasaki, a veteran state legislator from Maui (since deceased) with nearly three decades' experience in state budget development. He was the master who called the shots, and I was his pupil who worked and learned under his direction -- not vice versa.

    When it comes to the art of governance, embracing the simple answer in the face of a complex problem will inevitably lead one to some serious grief. The idea of term limits and supermajorities were never anything more than political gimmicks concocted over two decades ago by California Republicans in order to gain some now long-lost advantage with the state's always disgruntled electorate. Both initiatives backfired badly upon California residents with resultant legislative gridlock and what eventually became eight-figure budget deficits.

    Effective governance requires a willingness to both identify a problem correctly, and an ability address it forthrightly, while simultaneously eschewing any temptation to rely upon quick fixes and pleasant-sounding political slogans to mollify sullen voters before the next election.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Good piont (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 04:32:52 PM EST
    but there is a price we pay for no term limits as well.

    Here's a rebuttal to your argument.  

    I don't' necessarily support this but it's food for thought.

    All that said while I appreciate your point of view I stand by my original point that a congressman in office for 50 plus years is not a good thing.

    Parent

    Then as jb said, you vote them out. (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 06:18:20 PM EST
    Those arguments in favor of term limits to which you've linked are really nothing but a series of unsubstantiated political platitudes:

    "With term limits in place, Congress will be more responsible toward their constituents because they will soon be constituents themselves. They will have to live under the laws they have created while in office."

    Oh, really? No doubt, that's a heady and noble-sounding concept, but there's no proof to support any such overarching and egalitarian contention.

    "Members of Congress will have less time in office to develop financially beneficial commitments to lobbyists and other special interest groups, thereby undermining the threat of lobbyists being a primary influence on legislation."

    Well, I just provided you with a real-world example on the state legislative level which proves the opposite, that unelected lobbyists and staff are instead indirectly empowered by legislative term limits. And that's just the first two pro-term limits arguments offered.

    Look, a congressional or state legislative representative already serves at the pleasure of his or her constituents, and service in Congress or the respective statehouse is not a lifetime appointment, unless the voters themselves choose to make it so.

    I further believe that people have the constitutional right to vote for whomever they want and to re-elect them for however long they want, and that proponents of term limits are suggesting the electorate is generally too stupid to know what's best for it. I find that suggestion to be both arrogant and short-sighted.

    From my perspective, installing revolving doors in our statehouses has not in any way improved the overall quality of our elected legislative officials. Rather, we have two-plus decades' worth of data which very strongly suggests otherwise, that the inexperience of term-limited members instead erodes a state legislature's institutional capabilities, ultimately rendering even routine matters of governance problematic.

    How do you get term-limited legislators to consider the long-term implications of their decision making, when they're gone after just a few years and won't have to confront the potential consequences? Bluntly stated, you generally don't.

    Rather, what you risk getting is an Illinois General Assembly, which in the face of a longstanding pension crisis once again opted to ignore it and adjourn sine die without ever addressing this festering issue -- which in turn caused that state's bond ratings to get downgraded today by Moody's and S&P, hence Gov. Quinn's decision to immediately call state lawmakers back to Springfield.

    Imposing term limits on Congress is simply the ultimate in "lather, rinse, repeat." You're ignoring our already well-documented adverse experiences with term limits on the state legislative level. If it's not clearly working in statehouses, what makes you so certain that such a policy will ever finally play out as you envision if it's instituted on the federal level?

    Based on my experience, the primary advantage that congressional incumbents enjoy over any prospective challengers is their almost singular ability to leverage their positions in Washington to raise prodigious amounts of [mostly corporate] money outside their home state, an unfortunate practice which has only been significantly amplified since the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling, which allowed for the creation of a plethora of corporate-funded Hallelujah Choruses to gird the Beltway's political status quo.

    I think you'd be far better off focusing your efforts to support serious campaign finance reform, starting with the repeal of Citizens United, and working to level the playing field between incumbent and challenger by curtailing the obscene amounts of corporate cash currently being injected into our federal elections.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    America's Shooting Gallery, Part MMCV: (none / 0) (#28)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 07:38:32 PM EST
    Seven people are dead in Santa Monica, CA today, after a morning rampage along city streets which finally ended at Santa Monica College.

    And probably to the surprise of practically no one here, the perpetrator apparently used an military-style assault rifle in order to inflict maximum carnage.

    We need common-sense gun laws, particularly when it comes to high-capacity assault weapons, and we need them yesterday. We as a society do not deserve to be held hostage to the NRA's legislative agenda and terrorized like this.

    Gun fetishists like Wayne LaPierre are a cancer on the nation's body politic. Speaking for myself only, I will not cast a vote for any candidate for any elective office from any party, who either seeks or receives an NRA endorsement.

    Aloha.

    Death toll revised down to 4 (none / 0) (#34)
    by jbindc on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 05:59:08 AM EST
    But still horrific.

    Parent
    Stellar Wind - every time I see this name, (none / 0) (#41)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:03:50 AM EST
    I can't help mentally cuing up Summer Wind.

    4 yr old accidentally kills his father with a gun (none / 0) (#44)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:30:03 AM EST
    link

    I feel so much better knowing it wasn't (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Anne on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 01:02:59 PM EST
    deliberate...

    Love this framing:

    "somehow found a gun in the home's living room."

    I guess not everyone understands the ability of 4-yrs olds to gravitate to the most dangerous thing in any room.

    Parent

    I simply cannot understand (none / 0) (#58)
    by Zorba on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 01:30:13 PM EST
    why parents, grandparents, friends, whoever, leave loaded guns where children can find them.  I deeply and profoundly do not understand this.  
    These are totally preventable tragedies.
    "Somehow" the little boy found a gun.   {{Sigh}}
    "Somehow."          :-(


    Parent
    Is there actually a genre entitled (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 12:04:12 PM EST
    "rock symphony"?  Should there be?  David Garrett packed an outdoor venue twice today. In front of Semperoper   I am opting for "The Magic Flute" inside.

    Friday Open Thread | 62 comments (62 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment