Angela Corey: Doublespeak

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 09:32:34 PM EST
Tags: George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin (all tags)

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Angela Corey is holding a press conference. She has adopted a patient, reasonable tone, speaking slowly and with a smile.

Unbelievable: "We believe we brought out the truth about Trayvon Martin." Translation: We respect the jury's verdict but we still think our version, not the jury's version, was correct.

If the jury agreed the state brought out the truth about Trayvon Martin and his actions the night of the shooting, it would have returned a different verdict. [More...]

Now she's criticizing people with law degrees who opined against the state's case, without reading all the police reports and witness statements. How about those of us with law degrees that paid hundreds of dollars to her office for a copy of the police reports, witness statements, photographs, audio and video recordings and more? And read every filed pleading, watched every hearing and the entire trial? Are we to be criticized too?

Bernie de la Rionda was gracious.

Richard Mantei looks like he hasn't slept in three days. (Corey looks like she just left the beauty salon.)

She's explaining why she thought the charges were justified. Will she explain why she didn't allow the case to go to the grand jury? No. She just says the second degree murder statute covers an act or series of acts, and they think it was his series of acts that amounted second degree murder.

The first hard question: Why did you go forward if you knew you couldn't determine what happened that night? She tosses it to Bernie.

Corey: This case was never about race or the right to bear arms. We all strongly believe in the constitutional right to bear arms. But Zimmerman profiled Trayvon as a criminal. And if race was a factor in his decision to profile, we brought that out.

Bernie: He's tried 80 murder cases and this is only the second one he has lost. He's tried 15 self-defense cases.

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Angela Corey: Doublespeak | 47 comments (47 topical)

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Reporters are asking about SYG (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by SuzieTampa on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 09:36:42 PM EST

and will continue to misunderstand that this is regular self-defense.

I'm glad a reporter asked her about firing the IT guy, but she just deflected it.

Well (none / 0) (#6)
by squeaky on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 09:40:50 PM EST

Not quite regular self-defense. I believe in most states self-defense is an affirmative defense throughout the trial, so the burden of proof would be on the defendant.

In Florida the affirmative defense is determined right away with a very low threshold of proof. Once it passes that threshold the burden of proof rests on the state.


Thanks (none / 0) (#7)
by SuzieTampa on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 10:29:27 PM EST

I guess I thought it was "regular" because I've lived so long in FL.


It is regular (none / 0) (#9)
by cboldt on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 10:57:31 PM EST

The burdens of production, persuasion and proof in Florida, relating to trial treatment of justified use of force, are common.

Ohio is the odd state out. Burden of proof on defendant to a preponderance of the evidence.


IANAL (none / 0) (#10)
by squeaky on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 11:05:06 PM EST

But doesn't Florida have an unusually low bar for the defendant to prove self-defense as an affirmative defense, compared to other states? Once this low threshold is met than the burden of proof shifts to the state.


Not unusual (5.00 / 2) (#12)
by cboldt on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 11:13:41 PM EST

Most states have the same arrangement that Florida does, in the criminal trial. Florida's civil immunity and absence of duty retreat aren't as prevalent, but aren't uncommon. I think half the states have similar.

As far as trial treatment of justification to use force in self defense, most states require the defendant to raise the issue (which is all that "affirmative defense" means), to produce some evidence for the claim, to provide the persuasive argument (fit the evidence to your narrative), then shifts the burden of disproof to the state. The burden of disproof is the same in all states, IIRC, except Ohio.


Thanks (none / 0) (#13)
by squeaky on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 11:16:53 PM EST

Makes sense. Florida is not as strange as it seems.


Hmmmm ... as it seems (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by cboldt on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 11:48:22 PM EST

The press is very good at distorting reality. Anytime you find a fact particularly interesting, or troubling, do an independent study.

I found a similar effect in law school, reading the precedents cited in case law to see if they actually stood for the proposition stated. It was an eye opener.

Takes much effort to do the research, so it's the sort of thing that can be undertaken on only a few select "facts," if any at all. But what you can do is change the amount of credibility and weight you give to press accounts, or impressions you form after reading press accounts.


: Thanks (none / 0) (#19)
by squeaky on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:16:01 AM EST

Yes, that is my method, and I did some research, but obviously came up short.

Sanctions against Corey? (5.00 / 2) (#5)
by Robocop on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 09:37:49 PM EST

Any expectation that Corey will see sanctions from the way she handled this case? Not turning over evidence, withholding relevant information in the probable cause affidavit, etc.

Best site (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by Vanmichael on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 11:12:43 AM EST

I learned more about law and this trial from this site than any other. If you take emotion put out of it, the verdict makes sense, the laws are not perfect but the jury obeyed the law. I am not happy with Angela Corey --not a gracious woman. In the end many lives are changed. I am not in favor of more lawsuits as I feel it further divides but I am just giving opinion.

I agree (none / 0) (#29)
by DebFrmHell on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 12:43:14 PM EST

with most of your commentary except for the lawsuits.

I believe that Zimmerman should have payment from the media for damages that were put on him by inaccurate/edited/partial reporting. They stuck to the same narrative until the end.

And now, it seems that people are confused by the verdict. MSM created that thru the efforts of Ryan Julison & Team Crump. They sold a bill of goods that wasn't the truth.


: I hope (none / 0) (#39)
by Char Char Binks on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 12:33:28 AM EST

Z wins against NBC. He should also sue ABC for their chyron covering his head wounds -- inexcusable.

Funny (5.00 / 3) (#31)
by Yman on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 01:16:15 PM EST

The boys in my son's 3rd grade class would appreciate your humor. Well, ...

... maybe a few of the less mature boys.

I'm not a lawyer, but... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
by Aimes on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 02:56:11 PM EST

...after watching the pro-Trayvon talking heads on CNN and HLN (surprising hat tip to Don Lemon and Vinnie Politan for being uncharacteristically neutral), I've concluded that the only way they can persist in thinking this verdict was wrong is because they just dismiss and deny the testimonies of both John Good and Dr. Vincent Di Maio, arguably the two strongest witnesses in the entire trial. And Corey's post-trial presser was a self-congratulatory orgasm with only one good question (the IT guy). Sorely missing was asking her if she just flat out thought Good was lying, ya know? Until pro-Trayvonners are challenged about this, we will just be talking past each other.

Yes (5.00 / 2) (#41)
by Leopold on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 09:06:35 AM EST

And the comment will stand while others, who have just expressed their opinions, will be banned.

no it was deleted as soon as someone (none / 0) (#58)
by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 02:08:08 PM EST

alerted me to it. As well as about 5 others by this commenter. Char Char Binks, our comment rules prohibit personal attacks on anyone, including Ms. Corey. You may criticize her actions in this case, stating them as your opinion, but you cannot attack her appearance or personally insult her.


: Thank you Jeralyn. (none / 0) (#59)
by Leopold on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 02:29:30 PM EST

Corey Still Calls Zimmerman a 'Murderer' (5.00 / 1) (#42)
by rcade on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 12:08:04 PM EST

In an HLN interview airing tonight, Angela Corey was asked for one word to describe Zimmerman and she said "murderer."

Is this normal behavior? It seems as inappropriate as her beginning the press conference Saturday as if she'd won an Academy Award and thanking people.

A prosecutor who has lost a murder case should not be describing the former defendant as a murderer. It disrespects the jury and the judicial process.

Corey does not conduct herself in a manner appropriate to her office. I hope one good thing that comes from Zimmerman's acquittal is for Corey to be defeated when she's up for re-election.

Pouring gasoline (3.50 / 2) (#2)
by Redbrow on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 09:35:49 PM EST

On the fire is what they are doing.

: I see what you mean (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by Towanda on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 09:37:37 PM EST

now that I'm seeing and hearing her. Were I one of the jurors, I would be ticked by her comments.

Now Bernie is raising his voice again (none / 0) (#1)
by SuzieTampa on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 09:34:19 PM EST

in outrage.

She acted like she was accepting an award (none / 0) (#8)
by Payaso on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 10:30:26 PM EST

Her press conference was both surreal and shameful.

: Corey wasn't smiling... (2.00 / 1) (#14)
by DebFrmHell on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 11:30:35 PM EST

that is just how her mouth looks when she is talking through both sides of it.

I thought they started out great (none / 0) (#11)
by Teresa on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 11:12:34 PM EST

and then fanned the flames. If there is any unrest, I place the blame squarely on her and some on Bernie.

Praise the jury to the heavens and then when questions started they were outraged at the verdict. But the jury did good they said. Makes no sense to me.

Are you of the opinion defense counsels' (5.00 / 1) (#16)
by oculus on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 02:08:35 AM EST

was helpful re maintaining public calm?


: Scheme team (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by friendofinnocence on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:00:14 AM EST

Defense counsel pointed out it was a simple self-defense case that had race injected into it by Crump and the Scheme Team. I think the Schemers are going to be hearing more from them on it down the road.

Where Online is the Entire Conference? (none / 0) (#18)
by RickyJim on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:13:20 AM EST

I have only seen a couple of snippets. TIA.

My Question (none / 0) (#21)
by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:13:14 AM EST

Cnn or HLN is on in the background and they are discussing the case again . . . and they have playedthe clip of BDLR again.

The press had the opportunity to ask BDLR and Corey questions, but it seems that they did not ask the question that seems to me to have been basic to the case:

Suppose we suppose that it was George Zimmerman who was screaming for help, and we suppose that TM was beating GZ, including at some points pounding his head into the sidewalk. Suppose that John Good had in fact told the persons to stop and that TM had continued to beat GZ. Would shooting TM have been justified?

I don't understand why no member of the press has asked this question directly, because it is the real question that the jury faced, I believe. However, the closest anyone has come to addressing it was the lady Corey, who dismisses it by saying that people get these scratches and scrape injuries every day and immediately get back into the football game or whatever.

However, it appears that she has forgotten that many studies have shown that playing prof football significantly lowers life expectancy. The injuries she says are nothing in fact contribute to early death.

Jeralyn: A question (none / 0) (#22)
by Darby on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:14:18 AM EST

I understand the politics of oorey using innuendo as facts

But what do you make of attorneys who certainly understand the law, the evidence and yet act as is there was a case. Spewin nonsense about Martin being followed(unproven) and shot without justification.

While none of us were there and don't know what happened (did Zimmerman pull his gun first on Martin etc). There is no disputing what the evidence shows and I cannot understand those with a supposed understanding of the law opining about skittles etc.

: I (none / 0) (#24)
by morphic on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:22:11 AM EST

missed the press conference. Did Corey ever explain how someone, from the dispatcher call, could be standing in one place, no heavy breathing, no wind noise after the dispatcher suggested George not follow, just a conversational tone of voice, thus he was just standing in one place, can run down someone was is actually moving?

Finally a Full Version of Press Conference is Out (none / 0) (#25)
by RickyJim on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 10:11:54 AM EST

On Youtube.

Just have to say... (none / 0) (#33)
by Aimes on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 03:02:12 PM EST

I've heard this type of what-if comment made so many times on tv in the last month, and my reply is always, if wishes were horses then beggars would ride. I mean, what good does it do, it didn't happen. And furthermore, I bet GZ was wishing that as well the entire time he was screaming for help.

Kicking would have been unneccessary... (none / 0) (#35)
by unitron on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 05:55:16 PM EST

...just shoving him off of Zimmerman with his foot and a lot of leg muscle behind it would have done.

But since he had no idea who was involved or what was going on or who might have had what kind of weapon, it would have been better to discharge a fire extinguisher between their faces, or throw a large amount of pepper in their faces.

Non-lethal, but temporarily disabling of pretty much everything except trying to breathe.

Caution is natural for locals, I think. (none / 0) (#36)
by EL seattle on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 06:32:19 PM EST

By getting directly involved, John Good and the other neighbors might have believed that they'd be instantly setting up their permanent addresses as targets for future vandalism and any of the other sorts of stupid things that stupid angry kids do with their friends in America these days.

(And I'm pretty sure that if a 17 year old kid isn't spending at least a few hours a week being stupid and angry, he isn't doing his job right.)

Also... using a fire extinguisher? That almost sounds sort of humiliating. Even if it might be effective it the short term, it could also ve viewed as something of a double-dog dare for payback time.


a certain background (none / 0) (#37)
by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:01:28 PM EST

I have a Christian background . . . and grew up hearing a variety of stories . . . and one story is that David Wilkerson, when younger and alive and when in some inner city, saw a rape in progress. And he ran over to where it was and with some mild but clear force, stopped it.

At least, I think I remember hearing such a story . . . and at least some people would have gone over to kick or push TM off of GZ.


: This is probably a good 911-related question. (none / 0) (#38)
by EL seattle on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 11:25:44 PM EST

What do the police/fire/emergency folks recommend to someone who calls 911 in situations like this? When would they encourage callers/witnesses to get physically imvolveed in an altercation, or would they tell them to stay inside and wait for the police to arrive. I'd assume that there's a general policy that's followed by most 911 systems, but maybe differnt cities have different rules of involvement.

I'm No Expert (none / 0) (#47)
by rcade on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:11:44 PM EST

... I just gave a common dictionary definition of murder.

If someone shoots a home intruder to death, that person is not called a murderer.

The same principle applies here, even if you don't like the trial outcome. He had a self defense right and exercised it, making his actions as reflected in the jury verdict not murder (and not manslaughter too).

Got IT (none / 0) (#49)
by squeaky on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:16:06 PM EST

But you still did not answer the question. Is justifiable murder still murder? I think so.


Actually, no. It is homicide though. (none / 0) (#50)
by oculus on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:29:07 PM EST

Really (none / 0) (#51)
by squeaky on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:36:27 PM EST

Isn't homicide and murder the same? 2nd degree murder is not premeditated.. but it is excusable or justifiable homicide..

the jury instructions appear to use the words interchangeably.

Please elaborate, oculus, as IANAL...


A link is sometimes (none / 0) (#53)
by oculus on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:44:56 PM EST

worth more than a thousand word reply:

"Homicide"


: Thanks Oculus! (none / 0) (#55)
by squeaky on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:54:03 PM EST

Murder is a subset of homicide. Corey was acting much worse that I suspected.. surprise surprise..

Even If He Was (none / 0) (#48)
by squeaky on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:14:39 PM EST

Zimmerman, based on the evidence, could not retreat and would still be entitled to self-defense claim even if Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, imo.

But there was no evidence to support that Zimmerman was the aggressor, ergo the aggressor statute was left out of the jury instructions.

Huh? (none / 0) (#54)
by squeaky on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:47:31 PM EST

Have you been following the case? The moments surrounding GZ's shooting on TM are what counts, regarding self-defense.

But, yes, GZ could have been at the movies, or just shot Martin the first time he saw him.. or renounced Neigborhood Watch.. took up smoking weed... or...

Really jondee (none / 0) (#57)
by squeaky on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 02:02:59 PM EST

I get it that this is a tragedy and that you, like most of us are horrified by racial injustice but you are being willfully obtuse here.

The moment circumscribed by the law. The one that the jury decided on. The one you would be cleared by should someone you pissed off was straddling you and you thought you were going to get killed... that is if you hit them in the head with a rock or something to escape.

What you say may have obtained in some quarters (none / 0) (#66)
by jondee on Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 12:58:17 PM EST

but the key to the Z case's charisma here, I'm convinced, was guns and SYG.