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Bradley Manning Verdict: Not Guilty of Aiding Enemy

Bradley Manning hears his verdict today. Think good thoughts.

Update: Manning not guilty of charge of aiding the enemy but convicted of five counts of violating Espionage Act. Also guilty of Computer Fraud (10 years). See Nathan Fuller's Tweets and Alexa O'Brien, who says he faces 136 years in prison and sentencing will be tomorrow.

Manning was found guilty of 19 counts, 4 of which were his lesser included pleas. [More...]

For Collateral Murder video, Bradley Manning not guilty of espionage act violation

Bradley Manning not guilty of espionage act violation for transmission of Farah / Garani video

Bradley manning not guilty of espionage act violation for transmitting Army report on WikiLeaks

Bradley Manning guilty of wantonly causing material to be published on the Internet

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    Now With Alex Wagner... (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by heidelja on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 05:50:50 AM EST
    ...reported yesterday "The Bradley Manning verdict and `collateral murder'" here.

    The first comment below the article is (none / 0) (#23)
    by melamineinNY on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 11:33:08 AM EST
    very interesting.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#24)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 11:59:32 AM EST
    Those comments are quite thought provoking. Perhaps not to those who think legal adulthood confers maturity, but to this member of a large family it makes perfect sense. The background of the commenter adds some weight I think.

    Parent
    I hope (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 06:16:14 AM EST
    Manning gets off free.

    In this climate of repression, though, I doubt it.

    To think that his revelations, which as an American citizen I feel entitled to know, might put him in jail for life is horrifying.

    Absolutely nothing that he did can remotely be construed as "aiding the enemy". We don't even know who "the enemy" is...

    unless, that is, that we accept what Pogo said, and that the enemy is us.

    "aiding the enemy"? (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 10:24:04 AM EST
    I've seen nothing that would indicate that he in any way whatsoever "aided" obama or the MIC or the NSA or the pentagon or any of the people who bankroll them.

    Parent
    He won't go free (none / 0) (#4)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 07:15:42 AM EST
    Even if the government didn't prove the aiding the enemy charge it's safe to say his guilty pleas will put him behind bars for up to 20 years. So expect a minimum of twenty if he has a lucky day.

    I'd put the over/under at a total of 30 years (minus 112 days)..and probably bet the over.

    Parent

    And meanwhile, (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 08:18:54 AM EST
    Bush and Cheney roam around free as birds.

    Our government has strange priorities.

    Parent

    Why only Bush and Cheny? (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by star on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 10:36:03 AM EST
    Bush water boarded, Obama is killing from the sky.. whats the difference. Whistle blowers have been targeted more in this administration than all previous administrations combined. Drone strike rates are at an all time high under this administration. American civil rights have only eroded under Obama administration, not redeemed from the lows under Bush. It is not about R and D..All are the same. So long as we continue to retreat to our partisan corners and make excuse for our side and then they cover up for their side, the powerful few will trample the rights of common man.
    With regards to Manning, I have zero hope he will get any justice under the climate we are in today. This is a kangaroo court, with a show trial. His fate has been sealed long back.
     

    Parent
    Clinton shipped people (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:27:13 PM EST
    overseas to be tortured and starved millions of Iraqis, Bush I committed uncountable before, during and after serving as VP, Carter violent medieval jihadists and looked the other way on oppression under numerous regimes, Ford continued a good number of Nixon's excesses, Nixon quite literally committed treason for political game by undermining the Paris Peace Talks as a candidate, Johnson ramped up JFK and Ike's war in Vietnam, JFK has Vietnam and Africa on his hands as well as a domestic surveillance regime directed towards undermining the closest thing this countries seen to a Saint since Lincoln, Eisenhower looked the other way on war crimes in Korea and got us into Vietnam (in a big way, we were involved in the 40s), Truman dropped the A-Bomb (best of bad options but still) and even worse green lit the fire bombing of Tokyo, FDR backed freaking internment in addition to looking the other way on lynching and allying with monsters like Stalin and Churchill- I can keep going American Presidents have been criminals if viewed through the lens of individual action basically since the beginning- all heads of state of major countries are you inherently make decisions that kill or save thousands.

    Parent
    The One Point You Ingonored... (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 10:42:50 AM EST
    ...how many of those President's have been found guilty for Crimes Against Peace ?

    Only one, George Walker Bush, like Cheney and a good majority of their staff, can not travel freely throughout the free world as their are either wanted for trial or have been found guilty in absentia of crimes related to the war and torture.

    They should have tried them for at the very least lying us into a war and for committing the same acts we tried Japanese soldiers for, waterboarding.

    That being said, Obama should be tried for authorizing and killing of innocent people in lands we are not engaged in war with.  The drone program is as bad, if not worse than torture.  And Obama is authorizing the killing of Americans and other nationals.

    Ditto for the people behind PRISM and every single lawyer for both Presidents who devised memos to make what is clearly a crime, not a crime.  Layers don't judge laws, they interpret them and should be judged on whether those interpretations are valid by a judge/jury.  No one has ever contested their findings which are/have enable crimianls to commit obvious crimes.

    History is no excuse for not holding every person in American to the rule of law, that is one of the foundations of this country, people with great rank are as liable to prosecution as any of us.  

    By making non-nonsensical excuses, we are moving closer and closer to they type of government that we fought a war to ride ourselves from.

    Parent

    Your point is hard to ignore (none / 0) (#41)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 01:08:17 PM EST
    It is a good point in that it raises a central question about government, in general.  But, it is a point that causes hair-pulling frustration for those who might want to detest or lock-up-&-throw-away-the-key for any particular former leader.  In some countries, the one who is out typically finds oneself detained/in prison or no longer among the living.

    The older I get, the more inclined I am to view the wrongs of past presidents in our country in a historical context.  Perhaps, that is what you are suggesting.  When Nixon resigned, I was furious that his deceitful actions didn't guarantee a one way trip to prison rather than a pardon.  After the Bush-Cheney era, the old fury returned because of the many, many thousands killed and/or maimed by that insidious Iraq war. Yet, somehow I turned to the future ... I turned to the future because, in the context of a country as well as the context of history, it didn't make sense to spend the years and human and monetary treasure to forego the necessary moving forward for countrywide retribution.  The key thing to follow countrywide blunders -- unless it reaches the murderous intent seen in genocides, holocausts, and other "shocking the conscience" events -- is that lessons are learned & historically recorded ... to help us all as a people in future.

    Simply stated, I have grown to understand the probable reasons for general amnesty approaches practiced in so many other countries.  The official amnesty/closure unshackles more than the prisoners.

    Parent

    You raise a good point as well (none / 0) (#46)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 02:31:27 PM EST
    I mean I think I could make the case that what Nixon did was different (not the least because one of his worst crimes occured prior to being POTUS) but in general prosecuting one's predecessors however justified does tend to lead to retaliatory prosecutions down the road, with ruling parties prosecuting their opposition.

    Parent
    Maybe... (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 02:46:12 PM EST
    but in general prosecuting one's predecessors however justified does tend to lead to retaliatory prosecutions down the road
    That may be true, but we have seen the results of not prosecuting criminal activities, haven't we? It produces ever more grave criminal activities.

    But I wouldn't take your argument at face value. The trials at Nuremburg didn't have the effect you suggest. It broke the corrupt ruling party. As it should, IMO. Granted, not all crimes are equal, but corruption and moral depravity should be treated as exactly that, not as if it was equal to a brain f@rt. Merely saying oops (or pretending it never happened) is not good enough.

    And by the way (this is not directed specifically at you) I find I'm rather offended at the very concept of a "ruling" party in what is supposed to be a democracy.

    Parent

    Nuremburg (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:39:32 PM EST
    Is a bit different- so is the Hague- if the prosecution is conducted by an overarching international body as opposed to the exact same government that the people on the dock previously controlled.

    Parent
    The trials at Nuremberg (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 10:25:46 PM EST
    could occur only because it was preceded by this-unconditional surrender of Germany.

    Saddam Hussein, Chemical Ali, Tariq Aziz and other Baathist leaders in Iraq faced trials and were sentenced after the Iraq war. To governments that prosecuted the Iraq war from the victor's side, "Nuremberg like" trials have already been conducted in post war Iraq.

    The Nuremberg analogy is very flawed for a variety of reasons (some of which were already pointed out by other posters).

    Parent

    I believe I acknowledged this (none / 0) (#70)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:48:10 PM EST
    Nuremburg (none / 0) (#67)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:39:32 PM MDT

    Is a bit different

    in my original comment, albeit tacitly.

    But Nuremburg may have never been necessary if government officials at all levels weren't so willing to overlook what was going on until it was too late.

    Parent

    20 (4.25 / 4) (#6)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 08:34:37 AM EST
    to 30 years in jail.

    I did not detect the slightest trace of compassion from you for this lad.

    Parent

    Manning already pleaded guilty to (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:12:43 AM EST
    some of the original charges:

    In December 2012 the judge, Army Col. Denise Lind, accepted terms that would allow Manning to plead guilty to lesser charges in exchange for a maximum sentence of 16 years. In January 2013 she ruled that any sentence should be reduced by 112 days because of his treatment at Quantico, but that the dismissal of charges was not appropriate.[71] On February 28, 2013, Manning pleaded guilty to 10 of the 22 charges, and thus faces a possible 20 year imprisonment.[4][72] Reading for over an hour from a 35-page statement, he said he had leaked the cables "to show the true cost of war."[73] Prosecutors will pursue a court-martial on the remaining charges, including aiding the enemy. The trial began on June 3, 2013.

    Link

    So...I don't think this is a case of whether someone does or doesn't have compassion for Manning, just that, given the earlier guilty pleas, Manning is not under any illusions that he's going to walk out of prison anytime soon.

    Parent

    I know (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 10:01:40 AM EST
    that he pleaded guilty to lesser charges - and that he is going to jail.

    I realize when I said that I hope he was set free, that was not in the cards - and that it was naive in the extreme for me to have expressed any hope in that direction.

    But there are those among us who, like me, feel that any sentence for his "offenses" is criminal in and of itself.

    There are others, who I feel think that he deserves to be incarcerated and are glad about it.

    There are also those, I sense, who are indifferent.

    For those with the torches and those who don't care, I have no real common ground or understanding.

    I think his "crimes" are so miniscule when compared to the untouchable GW Bush and Dick Cheney that it is infuriating to me that he will be in the can, and those other freaks are given a pass.

    In fact, I think he did us a favor - and the afore-mentioned elected officials violated every known law and convention of human decency.

    But hey.
    That's just me.

    Parent

    And the ironic thing about today's date (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 10:49:07 AM EST
    is that it is the anniversary of the date the Continental Congress passed our first whistleblower protection law.

    The law passed by the Continental Congress on July 30, 1778, declared that it was the "duty of all persons in the service of the United States, as well as all other the inhabitants thereof, to give the earliest information to Congress or other proper authority of any misconduct, frauds or misdemeanors committed by an officers or persons in the service of these states, which may come to their knowledge."

    It was passed unanimously in response to a whistleblower, Marine Captain John Grannis, who presented a petition to the Continental Congress on March 26, 1777, to have a commander of the Continental Navy, Commodore Esek Hopkins, suspended after he tortured British sailors who were captured.

    No, Manning didn't go to Congress, and

    Manning does not dispute that he committed violations of the military code of justice, which he swore an oath to obey. He pled guilty to some offenses before trial, and, had the prosecutors accepted this plea instead of going forward with the entire case to convict him of "aiding the enemy," the government could have put him in jail for twenty years. It was apparently not good enough. They wanted to convict him of all the federal offenses he faced--the Espionage Act charges, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) charges and the embezzlement of government property charges.

    Military prosecutors also wanted to convict him of "aiding the enemy" for releasing information. They convinced the military judge, Army Col. Denise Lind, prior to trial to interpret the charge without a specific intent requirement. All the government would have to prove is that Manning had knowledge his disclosures would "aid the enemy."

    During the trial, Manning's civilian defense attorney, David Coombs, argued, "No case has ever been prosecuted under this type of theory, that an individual by the nature of giving information to a journalistic organization would then" be charged with "aiding the enemy."

    What are some of the things we learned?

    Take the video of a 2007 Apache helicopter attack, which shows two Reuters journalists being gunned down in Baghdad. The soldiers in the video known as "Collateral Murder" feature soldiers begging superior officers to give them orders to fire on individuals, who are rescuing wounded people. Soldiers also openly hoped a wounded man crawling on the sidewalk would pick up something resembling a weapon so they could finish him off. And, "The most alarming aspect of the video," as Manning said, is "the seemingly delightful bloodlust they appeared to have."

    Consider the military incident reports from Iraq and Afghanistan, which he thought "represented the on the ground reality of both of the conflicts" the US was waging in those countries. In Afghanistan, the reports obtained by WikiLeaks and released as the "Afghan War Logs" showed an assassination squad, Task Force 373, was operating. It kept classified lists of enemies and went on a mission on June 17, 2007, to target "prominent al Qaeda functionary Abu Laith al-Libi." The squad staked out a "Koran school where he was believed to be located for several days." An attack was ordered. The squad ended up killing seven children with five American rockets. Al-Libi was not killed.

    Reports from Iraq, also obtained by WikiLeaks and released as the "Iraq War Logs," revealed an order, Frago 242, which the US and the UK appeared to have adopted as a way of excusing them from having to take responsibility for torture or ill-treatment of Iraqis by Iraqi military or security forces. The reports also showed US interrogators had threatened Iraqi detainees with the prospect of being turned over to the "Wolf Brigade" or "Wolf Battalion," which would "subject" them "to all the pain and agony that the Wolf Battalion is known to exact upon its detainees."

    Link

    I think the whole thing is a travesty, and I think if more people were aware of not just what Manning - and others before and after him - has made possible for us to know, but how judges, both military and civilian, have ruled in ways that have made it easier to prosecute and convict "leakers," they would be as appalled as we are.

    Happy Whistleblowers Protection Day, everyone!

    Parent

    Yeah, keep attacking anyone who disagrees (none / 0) (#22)
    by melamineinNY on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 11:19:43 AM EST
    with you that Bush and Cheney (et al/Republicans) are the ONLY enemies of the constitution. Don't consider the truth of anything those kind of people have to say, and implicate their motives about everything. Accept no middle ground. They - the people you hold responsible for the mistreatment of BM - appreciate your cooperation in their divide and disempower business as usual.  

    Parent
    Strange... (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:30:50 PM EST
    I attacked nobody. I just said there are some with whom I have no common ground or understanding.

    Unfortunately, as you infer, there are many enemies of the constitution - although I consider Bush and Cheney to be the most visible and more flagrant violators thereof.

    Anybody is welcome to express their view of the "truth".

    I will read it, and consider it.

    But I do not accept the slightest responsibility in dividing and "disempowering" anybody.

    I express my thoughts, and you are free to disagree with them or ignore them.

    Parent

    And (none / 0) (#9)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:34:06 AM EST
    one can have compassion and feel sympathy or empathy for someone like Manning, but that is not mutually exclusive of feeling like he should not be punished for his actions.

    Parent
    What (none / 0) (#11)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:48:35 AM EST
    actions do you think he should be punished for, and what do you think would be appropriate punishment?

    Parent
    I haven't heard all the evidence (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 10:16:09 AM EST
    So I can't make a judgment. But he DID break the law. I don't think he deserves the death penalty, and I think he should be able to get out of prison someday. Just because you don't like a law doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want without consequence. But as I said - while I can feel sympathy and compassion for someone like Manning, does not mean I don't think he should take the consequences for his actions.

    Manning did admit to such things as failure to obey direct orders and stealing government property.  He even said, (emphasis mine)  "Your Honor, regardless of my opinion or my assessment of documents such as these, it's beyond my pay grade - it's not my authority to make these decisions about releasing confidential files."

    And so what about Bush and Cheney?  They aren't ever going to be punished, so what does that have to do with any other person who engages in illegal behavior?

    Parent

    Who's actually done more harm (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 10:48:36 AM EST
    to this country?

    I would suggest that Manning has, in fact, done no harm at all. He has not "aided the enemy" (a laughable charge, on its face). He has exposed the horrors of our detention and torture regime -- horrors brought to the world courtesy of...George Bush and Dick Cheney.

    The Manning trial is hall of mirrors.

    Parent

    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 11:12:22 AM EST
    You have no idea (as no one really does) what actual damage has been done to this country, so you are just going with your feelings, and not based on fact.

    Indeed, the Pentagon assessment determined in August 2010 that the initial leaks had not compromised intelligence sources or practices, although it said the disclosures could still cause significant damage to U.S. security interests. No further report has been publicly released. The judge in Manning's case did not allow testimony during the trial phase on whether damage had been done, but both sides can present that kind of evidence during sentencing.

    Would you really expect the Pentagon to admit any damage?  

    Parent

    Isn't that part of the problem? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:06:10 PM EST
    Would you really expect the Pentagon to admit any damage?
    That the Pentagon would report the same information no matter the what the truth is? I think complusive opacity is more inherently destructive than compulsive transparency.

    And I do think there is room to maneuver between those two polarities. Even though I prefer compulsive transparency, myself.

    Parent

    That's the whole enchilada right there (5.00 / 5) (#35)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:33:39 PM EST
    As sj and Dadler point out, we're not allowed to know, because of the government's excuse of keeping all national security matters secret from us  -- which inspires no confidence at all that they tell the truth. We already know that Clapper and Alexander lied before congress. Why would we believe anyone else in the super secret security state apparatus?

    Parent
    What national security (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:40:43 PM EST
    things do you think should be made public?  Everything?  

    And maybe there are things that we don't know because the ramifications are far-reaching and haven't happened yet?

    Parent

    Who said "everything" (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:55:26 PM EST
    should be made public? I never said any such thing.

    However, if Manning is charged with "aiding the enemy" (which is treason) then it is the government's obligation to at least reveal the outlines of which nefarious incident(s) occurred because of his leaks, or which groups were clearly helped. Absolutely. It is not nearly good enough for the government to claim Manning aided Al Qaeda by releasing documents, without telling us something about how those documents were actually used by Al Qaeda.

    I don't believe ANYTHING that anyone involved in the secret shadow government says. Liars and thieves, every one. I continue to be amazed that you have such faith in the secret government apparatus.

    Parent

    I don't have faith (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 01:23:00 PM EST
    in the "secret government apparatus". It is what it is. But I also don't have faith that everyone who engages in the behavior of leaking such information has purely altruistic motives either.

    If you strongly believe in a cause, in righting what is wrong - so strongly, that you are willing to defy the law and take on the powers of the government, with all their resources and might - then you should be willing to stand up and take the consequences.  Not hide behind platitudes and not go on the run.

    While an argument can be made that people such as Manning and Snowden may have done some good things, I find it astounding that so many people are shocked (shocked!) that the government doesn't just sit back and say, "Oh, ok.  Our bad.  Go live your life."

    Parent

    I, for one, expect the government (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 01:33:36 PM EST
    to do exactly what it is doing: going after people who have exposed the criminality of the government's policies.

    Iraq, secret rendition and torture, indefinite detention, illegal spying on American citizens...the list of crimes is long, and the government actors that commit the crimes will do whatever it takes to retaliate against those who expose them.

    Parent

    Not That JB... (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 02:40:05 PM EST
    ...but I do expect them to go after all criminals, not just the ones who exposed criminal activity.  For Christ sake, Manning exposed US Contractors who bought boys for sexual entertainment as some sort of hillbilly bribe.

    That's really my beef with all of the whistle blower/leakers garbage, is selective deciding only those people are subjected to the laws of the United States.

    On a balance beam of wrongdoings, the leakers in my mind always end up on top because the levity of their crimes is less than the people being exposed.

    No one should throw themselves at the mercy of a government they expose when that government refuses investigate the underlying crimes.  It doesn't make sense and it's not how the country of laws is suppose to operate.

    I would agree with you if anyone with a lick of integrity existed to surrender to.  Someone who would ensure that the underlying misdeeds are properly investigated and charged.  And if they are found guilty of crimes, those crimes should be addresses in the leakers trial and held to possible valid reasons for leaking classified information.  Let a jury decide with all the information, not half truths, xenophobia, and state secrets, if the leaker was a whistle blower or a criminal.

    You know, how it suppose to be done.

    Parent

    I don't disagree (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 02:56:21 PM EST
    But for those who keep saying we shouldn't be doing this because we haven't gone after Bush and Cheney is just silly.  It was never going to happen.  A new president is not going to go after a predecessor, and anyone who expected Obama to do so was just naive.

    On a balance beam of wrongdoings, the leakers in my mind always end up on top because the levity of their crimes is less than the people being exposed.

    Until, of course, the information they leak gets people killed.

    I would agree with you if anyone with a lick of integrity existed to surrender to.  Someone who would ensure that the underlying misdeeds are properly investigated and charged.  And if they are found guilty of crimes, those crimes should be addresses in the leakers trial and held to possible valid reasons for leaking classified information.  Let a jury decide with all the information, not half truths, xenophobia, and state secrets, if the leaker was a whistle blower or a criminal.

    Well, Bradley Manning had a trial (he requested the judge hear it and didn't want a jury).  We don't know all the evidence that was presented (and he admitted to most of it), and the court found him not guilty of the worst charge - aiding the enemy.

    NO jury ever has ALL the information, so why should this case be different?

    Parent

    Come On... (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:16:33 PM EST
    The first quote was directed at the known leakers, not some abstracter leaker who gets people killed, why does that always come up.  Fine for the government to kill 10's of thousands, but we have to go after leakers because someone might get someone killed...

    And the second point was not that they have a jury trial, that it be public and that the crimes he revealed be investigated and possible prosecuted, which could be used in his defense.

    Expecting my government to prosecute criminals is not naive, expecting they won't is un-American, and root of all our problem, giving criminals a pass because of their rank.  Not just Bush & Co, I expect someone to go after Obama & Co. as well, especially over the drone and PRISM BS.  But he's got three years left and Snowden's got hard drives of leaks so there is probably more.  But they won't because too many complicit Americans think it's naive to do so.

    Apparently right and wrong are no longer part of the equation.

    Parent

    You were in the military (none / 0) (#54)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:28:05 PM EST
    It's not a democracy - you know that! Bradley Manning ALSO knew that.

    The first quote was directed at the known leakers, not some abstracter leaker who gets people killed, why does that always come up.

    Because while the Pentagon is saying at this time that nothing bad happened, you have no what the ramificiations are, or will be when someone else leaks classified information.

    Fine for the government to kill 10's of thousands...

    Did I say that?

    Parent

    I Could Say A Lot About You JB... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:12:20 PM EST
    ...but I would never say you think killing people is OK.  

    Got a little worked up and fingers were flying on the keyboard.  Not at you, but you just brought up things about my government that get me worked up.

    Manning should have had an avenue to take his issues which would have not only exposed the criminality, but had it thoroughly and righteously investigated.  Which also would have allowed him to not spend the rest of his life in jail.  Ditto for the other leakers.

    Can you imagine not knowing what they have exposed ?  That's what our government wants.

    Parent

    I don't think killing people is ok (none / 0) (#69)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:44:38 PM EST
    These things get me worked up too.

    But it also gets me worked up when people want to shift attention from those who have done something wrong and say, "But..but...look over there!"

    They aren't mutually exclusive.

    And I guess while I am angry, I am just resigned to this is how it always was (we just didn't know it), how it is, and how it will be, and it's easier to focus my attention on things that actually have a chance of changing.

    Parent

    That's a weird way (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:31:21 PM EST
    of interpreting some comments
    But for those who keep saying we shouldn't be doing this because we haven't gone after Bush and Cheney is just silly.
    But whatever.

    However one of us -- either you or I -- have managed to miss the salient point. Because I thought it was that criminal activity should be prosecuted. And the more damaging the activity the more intense the prosecution. And that the criminal activity exposed by Manning is just lying there in the public domain with no effort to prosecute. While the one who exposed that criminal activity has just received a longer than life sentence.

    You are focused on the non-existent jury in the Manning case.

    I'll say this: I know you're right when you say that anyone who expects a President to go after his predecessor is naive. However, it isn't up to the President to investigate his predecessor -- that's the job of Congress. The Executive branch shouldn't be whipping Congress into action. But neither should they pulling at the reins screaming "whoa!"

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:40:50 PM EST
    Because I thought it was that criminal activity should be prosecuted

    Isn't that what happened in this case?  Bradley Manning committed crimes and was prosecuted.  What other criminal activity are you talking about? Things you perceive to be criminal (and you may be right, but you may be wrong)?  Things you perceive as immoral (that may or may not be criminal)?

    Again - just because someone else (the government) may or may not have done illegal things (and I think the answer is a resounding "yes") has nothing to do with the charges and now conviction of Bradley Manning. I don't know about your house growing up, but it never got me out of trouble to say, "But Tommy did X, so why are you punishing me for Y?" Why is this any different?  Two wrongs definitely don't make a right.  Are they equal in nature?  No, but then again, the actions of one person can't ever add up to a whole system.  Does that excuse the one person for his actions?  Absolutely not.

    Despite your strawman argument, I am not "focused on the non-existent jury in this case" - it really does help to read all the comments in the thread - Scott talked about "the way it's supposed to work" - that a jury should hear ALL the evidence and make their judgment accordingly. Which is where my statement about no jury in this case came from.

    And, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure what part of the Constitution you think gives the Congress the power to go after former presidents on criminal matters.[Some Democrats tried to impeach Bush while he was still in office, but other Democrats let the subject die].  Seems to me that would fall to the Justice Department to appoint a special prosecutor to do the investigation, which, last I checked, fell under the Executive branch's purview.

    Congress can hold all the hearings they want, but they can't bring criminal charges.  

    So yes, I would say it's you who missed the salient point.

    Parent

    Oy (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 05:00:28 PM EST
    When you start to go sideways you just dig in so I'm outta here. A good example is in the now Rolling Stone article comments that you insisted were about the cover all the way until the comments were deleted for going so severely off topic. I'm not tumbling down that path with you this time.

    And are you saying that former Presidents are immune from testifying before Congress about government activities if they should be called?

    And, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure what part of the Constitution you think gives the Congress the power to go after former presidents on criminal matters.

    I'll believe you if you say it's true because I don't feel like looking it up right now. But other than that, see you later.

    Parent
    As long as I live, I will never understand (5.00 / 6) (#58)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:51:12 PM EST
    how the Congress can bring the full force of its authority - and spend billions of dollars - to impeach a president for lying about a blow job, but can't muster the same interest, effort and energy in holding accountable a president, vice-president and a whole cast of villainous characters for lying us into a war.

    Oh, wait - maybe it's because the blow job just involved the president and his sex toy, and on the war and spying and related stuff, Congress was in it up to their beady little eyeballs.

    Yeah, I expect that had something to do with it.

    Parent

    it's not his authority (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 11:08:51 AM EST
    do you really think he said this for any other reason than the hope he got a more lenient sentence? Come on. His entire case proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this government considers you and me enemies of the state, because we do not deserve to know what our supposedly representative government is our name, which is mostly murder and destruction and malevolent stupidity of the most inexcusable sort.

    IMO, without guys like Manning, people like you and I don't have heartbeats in twenty years.

    I do not understand, IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, any American who thinks their government is an honest player in ANY dealing with American citizens. Nothing in its history justifies this belief. Exactly the opposite. We simply are fiddling while Rome burns.

    I do not understand it.

    A sentient judge or jury, again IMO, releases Manning with a very long speech about what utter undemocratic horsesh*t has gotten us to that point in the first place. That judge then resigns her or his position.

    Without that kind of commitment from people in power, we are doomed. Period.

    But no one is willing to lose their jobs over belief, except folks like Manning, who are then prosecuted and jailed.

    We, once more IMO, exist in a national state of such delusion and denial, it's not possible for the country to see anything but the trees, forests are simply for burning down right now.

    So, I guess I disagree. In a case of this import, I just don't believe that you can support his motivation AND his punishment. That is simply a road to destruction. We all have to stand up, or we're all laying down for good. And that is what happens every day here. We all just lay down like cowards, myself included.

    Parent

    I honestly can't imagine (none / 0) (#29)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:16:31 PM EST
    a single country in the world that would let a soldier who did what Manning did go free- its not oppression so much as the soldier part- countries don't treat oath breakers well, they really never have (excepting perhaps the American Civil War), that plus the fact that Manning literally released millions of documents in addition to the "collateral murder" video (which would be covered under whistle blower protections) is what is going to keep him in prison for the majority of the rest of his life.

    Parent
    Some fallout from this case (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 08:54:52 AM EST
    A Couple Things I Did Not Know... (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:51:29 AM EST
    ...from your link:
    But court documents and testimony revealed Manning's superiors ignored or mishandled his mental health and behavior problems -- including numerous outbursts and an email he sent a superior with a photo of himself dressed as a woman. His problems should have disqualified him from going to Iraq and should have prompted the immediate suspension of his security clearance after he got there, the defense said. Witnesses also depicted an intelligence unit slightly out of control, with poor leadership and analysts playing music, movies and video games on their work computers in the war zone.

    The release of diplomatic cables, warzone logs and videos embarrassed the U.S. and its allies, but no information pointing to specific damage to national security or interests beyond that. U.S. officials warned of dire consequences in the days immediately after the first disclosures in July 2010. But a Pentagon review later suggested those fears might have been overblown. Indeed, the Pentagon assessment determined in August 2010 that the initial leaks had not compromised intelligence sources or practices, although it said the disclosures could still cause significant damage to U.S. security interests. No further report has been publicly released. The judge in Manning's case did not allow testimony during the trial phase on whether damage had been done, but both sides can present that kind of evidence during sentencing.


    Parent
    I had hoped Lind (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Semanticleo on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:47:48 AM EST
    would be autonomous, but she is in the military.

    The manner in which the Press has been hassled trying to provide some coverage of the trial, does not bode well.

    'Aiding' is a broad brush and journalists are rightfully quaking in their boots.

    I Think this Case... (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 10:30:12 AM EST
    ...is clearly an example of why Snowden does not want to be tried by the government he exposed.

    Manning has been mistreated, he has been charged with aiding the enemy even though "the Pentagon assessment determined in August 2010 that the initial leaks had not compromised intelligence sources or practices...", but will spend at the very least 20 years behind bars.

    He had a history of mental health issues:

    But court documents and testimony revealed Manning's superiors ignored or mishandled his mental health and behavior problems -- including numerous outbursts and an email he sent a superior with a photo of himself dressed as a woman.
    LINK  (from JBin DC)

    But none of that matters, nor does is matter that revealed:

    The "Iraq War Logs" published by WikiLeaks revealed that thousands of reports of prisoner abuse and torture had been filed against the Iraqi Security Forces. Medical evidence detailed how prisoners had been whipped with heavy cables across the feet, hung from ceiling hooks, suffered holes being bored into their legs with electric drills, urinated upon, and sexually assaulted.


    U.S. defense contractors were brought under much tighter supervision after leaked diplomatic cables revealed that they had been complicit in child trafficking activities. DynCorp -- a powerful defense contracting firm that claims almost $2 billion per year in revenue from U.S. tax dollars -- threw a party for Afghan security recruits featuring boys purchased from child traffickers for entertainment.


    The Guantanamo Files describe how detainees were arrested based on what the New York Times referred to as highly subjective evidence. For example, some poor farmers were captured after they were found wearing a common watch or a jacket that was the same as those also worn by Al Queda operatives. How quickly innocent prisoners were released was heavily dependent on their country of origin.

    Even though the Bush and Obama Administrations maintained publicly that there was no official count of civilian casualties, the Iraq and Afghanistan War Logs showed that this claim was false. Between 2004 and 2009, the U.S. government counted a total of 109,000 deaths in Iraq, with 66,081 classified as non-combatants. This means that for every Iraqi death that is classified as a combatant, two innocent men, women or children are also killed.


    -U.S. Military officials withheld information about the indiscriminate killing of Reuters journalists and innocent Iraqi civilians.

    -The State Department backed corporate opposition to a Haitian minimum wage law.

    -The U.S. Government had long been faking its public support for Tunisian President Ben Ali.

    -Known Egyptian torturers received training from the FBI in Quantico, Virginia.

    -The State Department authorized the theft of the UN Secretary General's DNA.

    -The Obama Administration allowed Yemen's President to cover up a secret U.S. drone bombing campaign.


    See LINK for more details.

    IOW, revealed some of our deepest darkest secrets and did "not compromised intelligence sources or practices".  He was also know to have mental issues, and for this he is going to spend most, if not all his life behind bars, labeled a traitor.

    Not one of the criminals, including child traffickers and people who drilled holes in the legs of prisoners have been brought up on charges.  Only the person who revealed the their activities.

    Why would someone, who IMO, revealed far more damning and dirty secrets of our government possibly believe he would receive a far shake here ?

    Manning did not win (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by msaroff on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:19:13 PM EST
    But Obama and the state security apparatus lost, at least in this attempt to create a defacto official secrets act for the United States.

    Site Violator (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 07:45:36 AM EST
    I think. Although I see no spam lamb.

    Jeralyn would know if they registered. (none / 0) (#99)
    by fishcamp on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 01:17:47 PM EST
    Two headlines: (4.50 / 2) (#50)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 02:55:50 PM EST
    The NYTimes:

    Manning Acquitted of Aiding the Enemy

    The Huffington Post;

    Faces 100+ Years

    Of the two, I would say that the Times is far more misleading.

    I would actually disagree, and say that (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:34:52 PM EST
    the acquittal on the aiding-the-enemy charge was huge.

    Marcy Wheeler writing in Salon:

    As ACLU lawyer Ben Wizner explained last year, the aiding the enemy charge threatened every single soldier who spoke publicly. "Article 104 is not limited to sensitive or classified information -- it prohibits any unauthorized communication or contact with an enemy," Wizner explained. "So, if the government is right that a soldier `indirectly' aids the enemy when he posts information to which the enemy might have access, then the threat of criminal prosecution hangs over any service member who gives an interview to a reporter, writes a letter to the editor, or posts a blog to the internet."

    Moreover, a charge of "aiding the enemy" is not limited to military figures. Civilians, too, can be charged.

    Nor would the charge have been limited to outlets like WikiLeaks. While in its closing arguments, the government tried hard to describe WikiLeaks as different from other news outlets, when asked in a hearing in March whether the government would have charged Manning with "aiding the enemy" had he leaked directly to the New York Times, they said he would.

    That the same judge who changed the wording of several of the charges after the trial ended, which made those charges easier for the government to prove, didn't buy the government's arguments on aiding the enemy is a relief:

    In the government's closing argument, Prosecutor Major Ashden Fein described Manning using a term the government had not proven, much less charged: traitor. "Your Honor, he was not a whistleblower; he was a traitor. A traitor who understood the value of compromised information in the hands of the enemy and took deliberate steps to ensure they, along with the world, received all of it." Manning did, according to his own confession, take deliberate steps to pass valuable information on to us. According to the government, that means he aided the enemy.

    Yet, a military judge, who otherwise sided closely with the government in this case, refused to uphold that interpretation.

    I don't mean to downplay the possible sentence Manning could get - that's no small thing, either - but had he been convicted of aiding the enemy, I think the door would have slammed - and hard - on anyone even thinking about blowing the whistle on the government.

    Parent

    Granted it's misleading (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:40:34 PM EST
    Because it makes it sound like he "got off scot free" (what's the etymology of that phrase, anyway? I don't have a good feeling about it).

    But I think it is very significant and takes a little bit of pressure off the next wave of whistle blowers. Private Manning paid a great price to give them -- and us - that gift.

    Parent

    "Getting off scot free" (none / 0) (#59)
    by itscookin on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:06:03 PM EST
    Means getting away without paying your taxes. "Scot" being an old word for a tax. Feel better or worse about it?

    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#61)
    by Zorba on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:10:02 PM EST
    That is what I dimly remember from reading something years ago.  Having to do with taxes in Medieval England.
    And, at least how I feel about it, has to do with the tax itself, and who is getting away with not paying it.    ;-)

    Parent
    better, thank you :) (none / 0) (#64)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:21:38 PM EST
    Adding up the potential maximum sentences (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Peter G on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:08:58 PM EST
    (as if all would run consecutively) -- and not addressing the realistically likely sentence -- is very common in journalism, and always highly misleading.  Also, Manning's sentencing hearing begins tomorrow morning, but will run for days.  He does not face "sentencing" tomorrow, as many have misstated.

    Parent
    I heard on NPR (none / 0) (#85)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:20:10 PM EST
    that, in the sentencing phase, Manning's lawyers can try to sway the judge with explanations of what Manning's intent was by leaking the documents. Is this is approach often used in a military court? Is it known to have any effect?

    Parent
    Courts martial include a sentencing hearing (none / 0) (#93)
    by Peter G on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 09:08:03 AM EST
    that commences immediately upon conclusion of the trial, and involves the presentation of witnesses and evidence.  This is more formal than most civilian sentencing procedures (other than capital punishment hearings).  But as in most civilian criminal courts, any evidence that is logically thought to be mitigating (or aggravating), including the defendant's subjective intentions or motives, and the actual or potential impact of his/her acts, is admissible.  (In other words, more information is pertinent to the degree of appropriate punishment than is relevant to the question whether the accused is legally guilty or not.)  The process is very well described here (scroll down a bit).  The sentence pronounced by the judge (which, by the way, would have been decided by the jury had Manning not waived a jury) is subject to review -- as are the verdicts -- by the "convening authority" (commanding officer who called the court martial), and can be changed by the CA, but only in the defendant's favor (again, scroll down).

    Parent
    Thank you! (none / 0) (#96)
    by shoephone on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 11:38:53 AM EST
    It does seem that, without having to adhere to mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines, the military judge has a lot of leeway in this decision.

    Parent
    And, I believe the military judge, (none / 0) (#100)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 01:20:15 PM EST
    Col. Denise Lind, has already ruled (January 2013) that Army Pvt. Manning's sentence will be reduced  by 112 days because of the treatment he received while at the Marine base at Quantico, VA.

    That was the "prevention of injury status" treatment that had him isolated in a 6 X 12 cell 23 hrs/day; no pillow, no sheets, no drawers, no exercise.  Cruel, humiliating and inhuman treatment that was reported by UN representatives and prompted State Department spokesman, P. J. Crawley, to resign.

    Parent

    I was (none / 0) (#88)
    by lentinel on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 03:43:39 AM EST
    thinking about that...

    Suppose the sentence comes down to 16 years...

    Can you imagine spending 16 years - sixteen long years - of your youth in one of those horrid places?

    I was wondering if, after putting the possibility of 100+ years before us, we're supposed to think, well, 16 ain't so bad...

    I still hope, as in one of those B movies, that a small band of dedicated patriots can engineer a jailbreak.

    I guess I should wait until the actual sentence before letting my blood pressure go thru the roof... but anything but "time served" would be too much imo.

    Parent

    Peter (none / 0) (#91)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 07:53:18 AM EST
    If you could climb into a Judge's head, what would be your best guess at the length of sentence? Or if you'd prefer not to pinpoint and would rather ballpark...More or less than 30?

    Parent
    Much, much less ... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Peter G on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 08:31:53 AM EST
    I hope, and believe would be fair.

    Parent
    You underscore how (none / 0) (#60)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:09:19 PM EST
    people can and do see these issues differently.  For legitimate reasons.  

    lentinel: What a thought-provoking juxtaposition you show.  I just weigh in closer to the Times version, rather than the HuffPo panting hyperbole ... but then, the "truth" is usually somewhere in the middle.

    Parent

    Both (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:18:46 PM EST
    headlines are "true"... but the Times one gives the impression, however fleeting, that Manning was "acquitted".

    The Huffpo one is also true - but factually states that Manning faces life in prison. I don't see how you can call it "panting hyperbole".
    Would that it were so.

    Parent

    The whole truth is if we acknowledge (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:24:31 PM EST
    that each has a subtitle making the whole topic of headline controversy an exercise in futility.

    NY Times:
    Manning Acquitted of Aiding the Enemy
    WikiLeaks Source Is Guilty of Violations of Espionage Act

    Huffington Post:
    FACES 100+ YEARS
    Manning ACQUITTED Of 'Aiding Enemy'

    I would think a Journalism class would likely teach to lead with the major charge and leave the punishment headline for after tomorrow's sentencing hearing, or use the possible punishment as the subtitle.

    Either way they both present it all.

    Parent

    The truth (none / 0) (#66)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:29:08 PM EST
    isn't always somewhere in the middle. And it quite obviously isn't in this case either. The "truth" is that both things are true. It's just a matter of emphasis.

    The endless search for the "middle": there it is again. Along with the condescending "panting hyperbole" dismissal. Jeralyn is doubtless "panting" as well in the post at the top of this very page:

    See Nathan Fuller's Tweets and Alexa O'Brien, who says he faces 136 years in prison and sentencing will be tomorrow.


    Parent
    CG says it well in this case, sj (none / 0) (#71)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 04:48:32 PM EST
    It isn't a search for the middle ... it is simply that the lead in neither is true and also somewhat misleading.  

    Heck, I tend to look for the mid-point in many situations because--so often--both sides have their own spin.  Akin to debating with the Evangelicals where only one interpretation must be accurate....  

    I did like the way lentinel illustrated the point with the leads from both publications.  

    Parent

    I would partially agree with you (none / 0) (#73)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 05:04:03 PM EST
    about Huffington. While many would argue both sides of the hyperbole of that headline, we could all agree that they've never found a headline topic that isn't worthy of a 72 pt font.

    The 'Kennedy Dead' type headline from '63 is almost an everyday occurrence at Huffington Post.

    For the record, in my view Huffington has just now changed their Manning headline to 72 pt hyperbole.

    Parent

    On a completely (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 05:21:48 PM EST
    separate note, my personal opinion of the Huffington Post is as either a gossip rag, or a good place to provide the average person (or any random celebrity) with a megaphone. Sort of a virtual Speakers Corner.

    But you and christine need to tell me why 72 pt makes it hyperbolic when the statement itself is more conservative than Jeralyn's statement above.

    Parent

    I'm not saying the original one was (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 05:47:28 PM EST
    I'll say the newest one is:

    WHISTLEBLOWERS BE WARNED

    As for J up above, her headline mirrors the NY Times and USA Today. She does mention a tweet from someone that sent over 20 tweets on the decision. One on every charge and a final with the possible punishment, and J chose one to mention. But to compare headlines from the NY Times, the Huffington Post, TL and a tweet, well I think we're in overkill.

    And yes I agree, the Huffington Post isn't really a news site. It's a 'what can draw views' site. It's a newsy blog best looked at for those interested in gossip.

    Parent

    I agree with this (none / 0) (#74)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 05:13:14 PM EST
    I did like the way lentinel illustrated the point with the leads from both publications.
    He made me take some time to think.

    And I think you are mistaken in this in a very subtle way

    it is simply that the lead in neither is true, and also somewhat misleading.

    My perception is that they are both true (not that neither is true) while still being somewhat misleading. But then again one shouldn't expect the headline to be all inclusive. On a story like this -- unless the facts presented are wrong -- it provides emphasis not detail. But I can be convinced: show me the actual untruth in each of those statements.

    But I am still waiting for you to clarify your "panting hyperbole" statement.

    Parent

    "Panting hyperbole" (none / 0) (#77)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 05:49:41 PM EST
    CG may have answered that question by referencing the font size.  The screaming size conveys a kind of hyperventilation (quick grab the paper bag so we can breathe and all).  

    The NY Daily News may have been the undisputed "master" of what-I-describe-as "panting hyperbole.  Actually, as more & more media outlets try to find the grabber with which to lead -- no matter the marginality -- I suppose it is being transformed into the norm.  So, when a "panting hyperbole" becomes the norm, we could decide it isn't panting anymore.  One of my pet peeves (in my "condescending" way) is the overuse of the word "outrageous" as in "This is outrageous" says someone about almost anything on any given day in the news.  At what point does the use of a superlative -- as a font use or adjectival use-- become merely trite.  Even PBS joins that media hype (from time to time.)

    Parent

    CG answered for himself (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 06:10:18 PM EST
    As I'm waiting for you to do for yourself. FTR, you don't want to know what one of my pet peeves is.

    Parent
    Nor would you want to know my others (none / 0) (#79)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 06:25:57 PM EST
    I believe that I did answer your question above.

    Parent
    Wev (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 06:32:42 PM EST
    It's what I've come to expect.

    Parent
    Past each other again (none / 0) (#81)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 07:20:50 PM EST
    Yep (none / 0) (#84)
    by sj on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:17:24 PM EST
    I like specific and you don't. Nothing intrinsically wrong with liking generalities. It just seems wrong though, when casting aspersions like "panting hyperbole". But that's just me.

    Parent
    Speaking of hyperbole, christine, and (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:05:38 PM EST
    your aversion to it, I'm beginning to think that if Eeyore smiled you'd probably tell him to calm down...

    We all know what headlines are for, don't we?  They're for grabbing people's attention and getting them to read the story.  What matters is the content, which, in this day and age, isn't always much of an improvement over the headline, but unless you can point to something in any of the stories whose headlines you object to that's factually wrong, I think this has become a how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin conversation.

    And it's completely deflected away from the substance of what happened in a military courtroom today.  Yes, lentinel started it, but you just had to jump in - I'm sorry, you don't "jump," you discreetly lift your skirt to avoid tripping, put one delicate hand on the railing, and in as ladylike a way as possible, take a a teeny-tiny step - and deliver another Emily Post lecture on civility and the classless expression of emotion, and do it in a well-modulated and calm voice.

    I hope it gives you a little ladylike thrill that you just make me want to throw things.

    Parent

    That's funny, Anne. Thanks (1.00 / 1) (#94)
    by christinep on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 09:45:56 AM EST
    As I noted above, CG's comments about hyperbole & news leads are compatible with mine.  

    Hey, good suggestion about the skirt.  

    Parent

    Hey, sj (none / 0) (#98)
    by christinep on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 01:00:07 PM EST
    Lighten up ... instead of getting angry at personal comments about me, I've chosen to laugh.  Humor isn't always on our terms.  That you & I often disagree shouldn't translate into losing a sense of humor.  (For me, bristling only raises my blood pressure; so, it is better to laugh.)

    Parent
    Oh. (none / 0) (#101)
    by sj on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 02:21:25 PM EST
    That was humor? interesting.

    But that wasn't the issue. It was the way you (once again) tried to shift justification for your original comments to someone else (in this case CG). You don't often own your own words and today it bugged me. Tomorrow might be an "ignore it" day, but today it bugged me. Oh and yesterday, too.

    I don't "lighten up" on dishonesty, even when it's slyly delivered, but I can ignore it. Sometimes.

    Parent

    Hoo-hah (none / 0) (#102)
    by christinep on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 02:56:07 PM EST
    How else does one react to being called "dishonest?".

    Two things: (1) I own my own words.  Of course, I do. In the instant thread, my association with CG' s words/language was because CG said it better than I originally did.  We were both talking about the hyperbole of headlines ... And how misleading they often are, etc.  Somehow, you found that offensive.  (2) let me own these words too: It is my firm, genuine belief that this mountain-out-of-a-molehill thing stems from an overly personal reaction on your part to many things that I say.  This most recent example actually involved two people essentially agreeing on the hyperbolic approach of media grab headlines ... Yet, you seemed to have chosen me to be offende by.  Now, you decide to lob off that I'm somehow being dishonest.  What bugs you about me is your issue ...I'll not argue that point ...suffice to say that the history of our occasional back & forth would show that tension.

    Why don't we just let it be ...we are not going to accomplish anything with a kind of blog animosity.  Know that I am always willing to talk ... But, I am not willing to be called dishonest by you or anyone.  Peace.

    Parent

    Oy (none / 0) (#103)
    by sj on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 04:31:58 PM EST
    Lots of words here. Which completely ignore everything I've said all thread.

    Parent
    WSWS: The Persecution of WikiLeaks (none / 0) (#3)
    by Andreas on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 07:00:30 AM EST
    The Persecution of WikiLeaks
    [a long list of links to WSWS articles]


    Not guilty (none / 0) (#26)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:12:51 PM EST


    of aiding the enemy, is the only (none / 0) (#27)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:14:18 PM EST
    verdict I've heard.  

    This is excellent news.

    Parent

    Guilty on 5 counts of espionage (none / 0) (#28)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:15:58 PM EST
    Guilty of everything else (none / 0) (#30)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:17:28 PM EST
    The charges of which he was (none / 0) (#31)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:19:41 PM EST
    found guilty carry the potential to be sentenced to 100 years in prison.

    Parent
    If he's subjected to the same treatment (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:34:52 PM EST
    he's gotten in prison so far, he won't last long.

    Parent
    Guilty of espionage? (5.00 / 7) (#38)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:46:18 PM EST
    Ultimately, he proved to be engaging in intelligence gathering for the citizens of the United States, empowering them to some degree in the fight against one of their domestic enemies.

    Assbackwards doesn't even begin to describe the state of relations between people and their supposed representative government.

    Parent

    It's Stockholm syndrome, Dadler. (5.00 / 6) (#40)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:59:15 PM EST
    And it's astonishing how many Americans seem to have it.

    Parent
    In total (none / 0) (#32)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 12:24:02 PM EST
    He pleaded guilty to ten charges.
    Found guilty of 5 charges of violating the Espionage Act.
    Found guilty of 5 charges of theft.

    Sentencing begins tomorrow morning at 9:30ET

    Parent

    So (none / 0) (#43)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 01:30:45 PM EST
    it appears as if Manning is facing life in prison.

    I hope that a band of patriots manages to engineer an escape.

    Hope that someday, somehow, (5.00 / 7) (#45)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 02:21:30 PM EST
    a just and courageous president will pardon Manning, or, at least, commute his sentence (cf. Scooter Libby/George W. Bush).  

    And, that someday, somehow, that same or another just and courageous president will, after a trial that may result in a prison sentence, take a similar action for Edward Snowden,

    Whatever, "message" the government may feel it must send to the "messengers"  of such revelatory actions would be served, and  maybe, restore the idea and just cause of whistleblowers.

    Parent

    Add (5.00 / 5) (#48)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 02:42:01 PM EST
    to that, to the possibility of a pardon or commutation, a public recognition that what these people did, at the risk of their lives, was to alert the American public to the dark nature of many of the things that are being done in their name.

    Parent
    the cnn opinion piece (none / 0) (#86)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 09:56:53 PM EST
    I think the cnn opinion piece was quite good.  It called the verdict unfair, and it is referring to finding him guilty.  Apparently some of the first whistleblowers in US history were in the navy and reported on torture of British sailors, and the response of the cont congress was to pass a law protecting "whistleblowers."  And the pieces lists 5 or 6 major acts of criminality or bad faith on the part of the USA which Manning has exposed, and for which, ha!, he has been convicted of espionage.