home

Defense Opens With George Zimmerman's Mother

The defense calls Gladys Zimmerman, George Zimmerman's mother, as its first witness. She identifies George as the person screaming in the background of Jenna Lauer's 911 call. She is not asked anything else

The next witness is Orange County Deputy Sheriff Jorge Meza, who is also George's uncle. Orange County is next to Seminole County where the trial is taking place. Meza is adamant is is George's voice. [More...]

Meza says he heard the scream on TV, and immediately recognized it was George's voice.

He said he would never compromise his integrity or his oath as a law enforcement officer or in court and lie for anyone.

The court has recessed for the weekend. This is an advantage for the defense, that the last witnesses it heard today are two who insist it is Zimmerman's voice on the 911 call. That said, I suspect the jury will not rely on the family members on either side in determining who was screaming. A common sense view of the other evidence in the case, particularly that the only person with injuries was Zimmerman, is compelling evidence it could only have been Zimmerman screaming.

Update: Mark O'Mara at today's after court press-conference: They have expert testimony on Martin's marijuana use they will try to get in. He said the judge's ruling was not final. The defense will also seek to introduce evidence concerning Martin's fighting. They will have more witnesses on whose voice is heard screaming. He said he was surprised the state opted not to call certain family members and law enforcement officers who were heavily involved in the case. He mentioned the state's decision not to introduce good character evidence about Trayvon so as not to open the door to contrary character evidence the defense would then introduce. It sounds like he will be taking Benjamin Crump's deposition this weekend. He said they have 3 or 4 scheduled and Crump's has not yet been taken. [Our threads close at 200 comments This thread is now closed.]

< George Zimmerman Trial: State Rests, Court Denies Motion to Aquit | Saturday Open Thread >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Why is marijuana use inadmissible? (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by David in Cal on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 04:34:12 PM EST
    Jeralyn or commenters -- I watched a bit of the trial where the judge repeated that the marijuana use was inadmissible.  How can that be a correct ruling? It's a fact that Martin had a certain amount of THC in his bloodstream. And, I presume, there's some medical research on the impact of that amount of marijuana. ISTM that the presence of the marijuana would reasonably affect someone's judgment of whether Z was telling the truth or not.

    If Martin had had alcohol in his blood, I assume that would have been admissible.  Why exclude the marijuana?

    It's too bad they didn't do any blood testing (1.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Angel on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:06:41 PM EST
    for drugs that might have been in GZ's system.

    Parent
    No PC (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by Cylinder on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:45:56 PM EST
    None of the officers testified to observing any signs of impairment. Lacking that, they have no basis to compel a tox screen for Zimmerman.

    Florida does allow warrantless and involuntary tox screening for any firearm homicide upon evidence of probable cause.

    I'm guessing that's a cause we're not taking up on this particular blog.

    Parent

    Who Said Involuntary? (5.00 / 5) (#115)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:04:22 AM EST

    GZ did everything he was asked. I would be surprised if he refused a request for a blood sample. He wasn't asked.

    Parent
    Simply because they did not observe any signs of (1.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Angel on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:58:13 PM EST
    obvious impairment doesn't mean there wasn't some.  I think not testing him was a mistake, but that's just my opinion.  I think that anytime a firearm is discharged and a person killed they should test the person who used said firearm.

    Parent
    What do you mean, Angel? (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by citizenjeff on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:30:58 PM EST
    How was it a "mistake" for the police to know they had no authority to compel Zimmerman to submit to a blood test?

    Parent
    there's another reason (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by morphic on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:48:23 PM EST
    they should have tested him. According to the report, Z had blood coming from inside his ear. This can be indicative of spinal/cerebral leakage. Which can be life threatening. If there was any greenish fluid mixed in the blood, it would be positive. Z was lucky. The medics should have been more insistent.

    Parent
    well luckily you (2.71 / 7) (#30)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:31:31 PM EST
    don't make the laws.  Because that's not really the way we do things here in the U.S.  We do not assume someone is a bad guy because we don't like their gun tottin ways. And since we do believe in a person's right to defend their life, we do still depend on probable cause before we drug test them.  We have that annoying thing we call the Constitution of the United States of America.
     But I am sure there is some place more to your liking where the government would be more totalitarian and invasive.  May I suggest anywhere in the Middle East?

    Parent
    LOL... (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 08:35:49 PM EST
    isn't Florida one of the states that wants to drug test everybody on public assistance without probable cause?

    I'm with you, piss and blood is personal and private and should be nobody's business...but I think you're confused about how we do things in the USA.  Swerve a little changing the radio station you could be tested for alcohol, ya gotta pee in a cup applying for many jobs...never mind shooting somebody dead.  Sh*t they even test you on a slab dead from a gunshot wound apparently!

    My opinion of the 911 tapes, sounds like the dude was on Xanax...which, if Zimmerman is telling the truth about the fight, would explain how Trayvon was kicking his arse despite being outweighed by 50 lbs.

     

    Parent

    Wrong, Kdog (3.00 / 2) (#105)
    by MiddleOTheRoad on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 06:21:06 AM EST
    The State of Florida isn't invading anyone's privacy by drug testing. All they're doing is saying that if you want freebie help paid for by other people, you don't get to spend your own money on fun things like drugs. If you don't want to submit, don't live off the public dole. Personally, I'd make people quit cigarettes before giving them free food and housing. Ten bucks a day for a pack of cigs would go a long way toward feeding their kids.

    And Zimmerman on Xanax? Maybe he's just worked hard in his life to not be a hothead eager to fight. I think Trayvon was kicking his arse, but I don't think badly of George for that. It's all on Trayvon.

    Parent

    The State of Florida is run by the Tea Party (1.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Dadler on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 10:44:48 AM EST
    From shore to shore, the state is a sad phucking joke in every respect but weather and scenery, and even that's gonna be under water soon. I feel sorry for those residents who aren't insiders profiting from the destruction of a once proud place. With the TP running it, it's a pitiiful disgrace to this nation. And I'm surprised it gets little play, as the justice system in that state is certainly not immune to the rest of the idiocy that runs the state.  

    Parent
    Dadler, do you live in FL? (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by SuzieTampa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:27:41 PM EST
    Because what you said is a great exaggeration. Rick Scott is a TPier, and the Rs control our state House, but they aren't all of the TP kind. In Tampa, I have a Dem mayor, a Dem state rep, and a Dem U.S. rep.  

    Parent
    Isn't it ironic (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 08:40:35 PM EST
    law enforcement can legally collect a DNA sample from any arrestee?

    Parent
    Totally kid.... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 08:45:30 PM EST
    I thought I was confused before this case was news...now I'm well past confused and feel like a total alien on my home planet.

    Parent
    yeah (none / 0) (#106)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 06:50:38 AM EST
    I don't think Florida should be able to do that. I realize other's feel differently and I can see their point.  I can almost agree with them.  But in the end, I just can't see the state being that invasive.  Help people, don't judge them.

    Parent
    I don't think we're helping people (none / 0) (#114)
    by MiddleOTheRoad on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:00:55 AM EST
    by allowing them to waste money on drugs while other people feed and house their kids. Let's conserve our resources and spend more money helping those who really do want to make their and their kids' lives better.

    If we want to have good, solid effective social support systems, we have to do what we can to prevent abuse. Anything else is simply not sustainable.

    Besides, the more we allow people to abuse our generosity, the more working people are likely to disparage our public service programs and vote for politicians who want to reduce services overall. (Yes, I know, corporate welfare is worse. Let's just agree on that up front so no one posts that strawman to disparage my argument for limiting abuse of our social service net.)

    Parent

    Insist on the test. (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Blast Freezer on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:27:52 AM EST
    In what I've read from people who are experts in self-defense law, anyone who is involved in a self-defense shooting should INSIST on a blood test for drugs.  In other words, don't leave it as an issue for people to speculate about.

    Of course this presumes that someone who carries a gun doesn't use drugs and is not under the influence of drugs or alcohol.  

    Parent

    Guessing - unfair prejudice (none / 0) (#4)
    by cboldt on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 04:53:33 PM EST
    Whatever the state gave as grounds for exclusion, the court accepted.  The only legal reason that matters during trial is "judge ruled so."  The ruling might be reversible error, and it might not be reversible error.  That distinction depends first on the outcome of the trial.

    Parent
    Yes, I would assume it was... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by bmaz on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 04:56:53 PM EST
    ...based on a 403 determination that the prejudicial effect exceeded any probative value.

    Parent
    Makes no sense tp me. (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by labrat on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:54:38 PM EST
    Why would it not be probative? GZ stated in his NEN that TM looked suspicious "like he's on drugs or something" - wouldn't a positive tox screen corroborate his suspicion? I think it just yet one more piece of evidence that supports GZ.

    Parent
    Blood alcohol correlation studies support expert (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:03:36 PM EST
    testimony as to correlation between amount of alcohol consumed and impairment.

    Parent
    No harm, no foul (none / 0) (#137)
    by JP95inGA on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:34:25 AM EST
    Judge Nelson realizes the State failed to prove it was not self-defense, which means GZ will be acquitted.  If she admits the tox results now, it obviously hurts the State's case even more and becomes a huge mess politically.  She wants to wrap this up.  She knows that it was reversible error, but it'll be a moot point when GZ is acquitted.  Her decision was the lesser of the evils.

    Parent
    the subject line of your comment (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:00:23 PM EST
    is unfounded and potentially libelous. You can ask that as a question as you do in your comment, but I am not willing to have it stated as a fact and be spread via search engines. Please repost your comment as a question as I will be deleting this one.

    FYI, O'Mara has said many times it was GZ's decision to go on Hannity, not his. Was he supposed to let him go alone?

    Was he supposed to let him go alone? (none / 0) (#33)
    by DennisD on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:49:09 PM EST
    He's supposed to be able to control his client in order to best represent him. If he can't, he should quit. Moreover, I don't believe for a second that O'Mara couldn't have prevented Zimmerman's appearance, and if he couldn't, again, he should have quit. If my doctor told me not to do something before surgery because there may be very serious consequences and he knows that I have, should he still perform surgery?

    Parent
    ... on Hannity, I'm not quite sure I understand the point you're trying to make. I mean, it's not as though Zimmerman just appeared alone with the host and began running off his mouth. I would assume that O'Mara's presence alongside him represents something more than a fait accompli on the defendant's part.

    Parent
    I think my point (none / 0) (#64)
    by DennisD on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:27:12 PM EST
    is pretty clear. Did you read my original post?

    Parent
    Yes, I did. (none / 0) (#82)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:29:54 PM EST
    And since Mark O'Mara has stated for the record (and probably inserted into the case file) that he had advised his client to not appear on Sean Hannity, I just don't see any problem here.

    Obviously, from a professional standpoint, Mr. O'Mara's appearance alongside his client on national television made it clear that he could abide by his client's decision.

    Personally, I think O'Mara was dealt a difficult hand, and seems thus far to have played it well.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Jeralyn, I suspect if your client chose (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:20:48 PM EST
    withdraw. Am I correct?

    Parent
    Jeebus (none / 0) (#68)
    by bmaz on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:49:18 PM EST
    Not gonna speak for Jeralyn, but I sure would not have withdrawn. I would have counseled against it (prob with a written acknowledgment that I did so for the file), but never abandoned my client. Listen, Zimmerman had already spoken so many times before it just was not that huge of a deal breaker.

    Parent
    Well, I sure hope that.. (none / 0) (#83)
    by rob411 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:40:27 PM EST
    O'Mara and West make the call on whether GZ testifies. Commentators have repeatedly emphasized how the prosecution has allowed GZ to tell his story without cross-examination by playing his various interviews/recreations.

    However, I wouldn't put it beyond GZ to insist on making the risky decision to testify, for no particularly good reason. It's not so much that I have a strong opinion on whether he should testify, it's just that I want both legal teams to present the best case they can.

    Parent

    I've stated for the record that ... (3.67 / 3) (#90)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:21:51 AM EST
    ... I'm not particularly sympathetic to this defendant, even though I do believe that prosecutors overcharged in this case, and that he's not guilty of murder.

    But at this point, I think George Zimmerman would have to be just this side of certifiable to take the stand on his own behalf. That would be a potential and otherwise avoidable windfall for the prosecution, offering them an opportunity to turn the defendant into a walking, talking pretzel of contradiction and obfuscation.

    In my opinion, were Zimmerman to overrule his own counsel and do so, he'd probably go a long way to prove right his many critics, who believe that he's a reckless fool who seeks out trouble and subsequently finds it in spades.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    A reckless fool who seeks out trouble? (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by friendofinnocence on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:17:04 AM EST
    What about a guy who knows what happened, knows he's telling the truth, and wants the jury to hear it straight from himself?  Is our system of justice really so out-of-control and biased towards the defendant it is now accepted in legal circles there is great danger in taking the stand and telling the truth, when the truth shows no crime was committed?

    Parent
    Zimmerman would not likely (none / 0) (#140)
    by MKS on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:55:27 AM EST
    be abandoned.  I am sure many would stand in line to represent him.

    Parent
    THE DEFENSE CASE (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by Carol Herman on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:00:50 PM EST
    At the end of the day, Friday, the jury, who has been out of the courtroom since its lunch break; comes back in.  And, the judge asks them to decide if they want to hear testimony.  Or recess until Monday morning.  And you can hear them say they want to hear testimony.  O'Mara is then directed to begin his case.

    The two witnesses he calls in is George's mom.  And, his uncle, who says he's known George since the day he was born.  Jorge is George Zimmerman's mom.  Both identify the screams as coming from George.

    MY QUESTION:  Does the judge know in advance whom the Defense will be calling in as witnesses?  Or is this portion of the trial, like cards, only shown when the witness actually comes in?

    And, two.  Was the judge surprised at these two witnesses coming in?  Does she know anything about the Defense's witnesses before they appear in her court?

    OY (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Carol Herman on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:01:51 PM EST
    Jorge is George Zimmerman's mom's BROTHER

    Unlikely, based upon evidence (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by Cashmere on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:15:34 PM EST
    presented the State's case.  

    those comments were deleted (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:54:47 PM EST
    They presume the jury will disregard the law.

    From the Jury Instructions, 3.13:

    These are some general rules that apply to your discussion. You must follow these rules in order to return a lawful verdict:

    1.    You must follow the law as it is set out in these instructions. If you fail to follow the law, your verdict will be a miscarriage of justice. There is no reason for failing to follow the law in this case. All of us are depending upon you to make a wise and legal decision in this matter.

    2.    This case must be decided only upon the evidence that you have heard from the testimony of the witnesses [and have seen in the form of the exhibits in evidence] and these instructions.

    3.    This case must not be decided for or against anyone because you feel sorry for anyone, or are angry at anyone.

    4.    Remember, the lawyers are not on trial. Your feelings about them should not influence your decision in this case.

    ....
    8.    Your verdict should not be influenced by feelings of prejudice, bias, or sympathy. Your verdict must be based on the evidence, and on the law contained in these instructions.



    Parent
    Getting Curioser and Curioser (none / 0) (#109)
    by RickyJim on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:17:07 AM EST
    I didn't know that a taboo subject on this blog was juries disregarding the law.  Is it such a rare thing that it isn't worthy of discussion despite the fact the even judges do it, especially with case law?  If it is illegal for juries to disregard instructions, why aren't they asked for their reasoning in reaching decisions and face criminal or civil penalties for not obeying the rules?

    Parent
    Did O'Mara Commit Malpractice (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by DennisD on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:34:14 PM EST
    Hopefully someone can address this:

    It seems to me that Mark O'Mara committed malpractice--maybe not by a the strict legal definition--by putting his client on the Hannity show and thus allowing the state to paint him as a convincing liar with the requisite knowledge to fabricate a plausible self-defense claim.

    As we saw today in the motions for acquittal the state is planning to paint Zimmerman as exactly that, and while the defense may be able to manage  by showing that Zimmerman's story seems in line with a good deal of the physical evidence there's still a problem because some jurors may feel his injuries are insufficient and thus his reasonable fear relies on his claim that Martin went for his gun.

    Has O'Mara made it easier for the state to send his client to prison?

    A question if anyone could or would be so kind. What are the chances that O'Mara can convince jurors that Martin committed aggravated battery and thus was justified that way?

    On a side note, I think the media and blogs are looking at this case from a slightly misguided view and I wish they would cover it a bit differently. That is, the state doesn't think it can obtain a murder 2 conviction, nor have they ever; they've used it in the hope the jury will compromise. I wish the coverage would be from a manslaughter aspect so we could see a discussion about excessive force in this case, because in the end, isn't that what will be the deciding factor.

    Thanks for the coverage.

    I agree (none / 0) (#38)
    by lousy1 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:06:36 PM EST
    Man2 / manslaughter is not main the issue

    Self defense is the only defensive theory being advanced.  Unless the state can disprove self defence BARD and it trumps either charge.

    I think the primary reason to get a ruling that no malice was demonstrated was to remove some of the propaganda value of the states more outlandiush claims

    Parent

    thank you for reposting this (none / 0) (#50)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:55:38 PM EST
    in the form of a question rather than a declarative fact. Much appreciated.

    Parent
    It's My (none / 0) (#74)
    by DennisD on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:32:53 PM EST
    pleasure

    Parent
    First of all, nobody is perfect, ... (none / 0) (#59)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:01:43 PM EST
    ... not even criminal defense attorneys. (Sorry, Jeralyn.)

    Granted, it was a move that surprised me, to be sure, but it's otherwise a perfectly legitimate call, simply because there may have been other compelling factors that necessitated George Zimmerman's appearance of Fox News.

    As I recall, they were raising money for Zimmerman's criminal defense fund at the time, which was necessary, and I would consider that a perfectly legitimate rationale for Zimmerman and O'Mara to appear on a nominally friendly show like Sean Hannity, with what one would presume was a sympathetic host and audience.

    Of course, that obviously came with some element of real risk, i.e., whatever Zimmerman said in public could be used by the prosecution against him, as was the case here -- but that was a tactical call which Mr. O'Mara and his client had to make. And in their mind, perhaps the overall benefits of funding an adequate legal defense outweighed the potentially adverse consequences of ultimately offering up something revelatory and detrimental to the defense's cause.

    What I'm saying is that in my own honest opinion, the defense counsel did not take an uncalculated risk by putting his client on Hannity. Therefore, what O'Mara did no more rises to the level of professional malpractice, than would a football coach who called a passing play on third and long which resulted in an interception.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I don't think it was (1.00 / 1) (#78)
    by DennisD on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:53:59 PM EST
    legitimate at all. Look at what happened? Moreover, if O'Mara was concerned about fundraising and/or his client was clamoring for a public appearance he could've created a safer venue, one that certainly didn't involve unscripted questions.

    Parent
    Because Hannity has a reputation as ... (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by magster on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:47:38 PM EST
    ... a principled unbiased interviewer who would never stoop to using scripted ratings driven questions.

    Parent
    Money is one issue (3.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Payaso on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:24:23 PM EST
    A top notch defense doesn't come cheap.  GZ and his wife can't work.  They don't have savings and his parents are not wealthy.

    But while his attorneys are worried about the criminal charges, GZ has to worry about his life after the verdict too.  He has been demonized on national television.  He has been threatened with death.

    Walk a mile in his shoes then tell us how your feet feel.

    Parent

    walking in other's shoes (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Palli on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:33:25 AM EST
    I have been beaten at a bus stop, provoked by pranks, hit by stones throw at me in a school playground by adults, almost killed on the highway by a dangerous driver, ...
    The fact is I would never carry a gun.  I know how I would feel.

    Parent
    So the lawyer did it (none / 0) (#61)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:05:00 PM EST
    for the money he and his team might get?

    Parent
    They did have to raise money, right? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:24:20 PM EST
    When your life is at stake, an effective legal defense can cost some very real bucks. With an appearance on Fox News, I can't think of a better way to get Zimmerman's story before a sympathetic audience that might be inclined to send a few bucks their way after hearing it. And if that was their rationale, either in all or in part, I find nothing wrong with that.

    Parent
    the lawyers have not been paid (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:42:07 PM EST
    a dime. All money has gone to experts and case expenses and GZ's living expenses and security.

    Parent
    Thank you for that clarification, J. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:56:34 PM EST
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with the defendant using a nationally televised appearance to bring attention to his case, tell his side of the story, and perhaps encourage some sympathetic people to donate some money for the effort.

    As I stated prior, it takes money to put on an effective defense in a capital case like this, and I see no useful purpose to be served by recklessly impugning the integrity of the defense counsel with suggestions that he's pocketing some or all of the funds raised thus far.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    This is not a "capital" case. (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:58:05 PM EST
    Seems to me that both (none / 0) (#136)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:26:32 AM EST
    sides are trying to whip up media attention. For the money apparently. Then both sides decry media attention.

    Hannity is not a journalist. He and other Fox News stars like O'Reilly, Sarah Palin, Glen Beck etc provide commentary. But of course, if you get on TV on Fox you are going to whip up lots and lots of media.

    Parent

    NO (none / 0) (#69)
    by bmaz on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:51:39 PM EST
    Is the answer to the question as to malpractice.

    Parent
    I've got both logic ... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:21:55 PM EST
    ... and  a law degree/license, which is how I know the 4th Amendment applies to both searches of the person/home/car (for guns) and blood/breath testing.  You seem to be under the mistaken impression that testing bodily fluids/breath is afforded greater protection under the Constitution than the former.

    It is not.

    And yes, carrying an illegal firearm is illegal (bravo!), but the massive, random sweeps that you propose for those other urban folk are not.

    "Ta Da!"

    That was easy.

    I know lots of people (3.67 / 3) (#107)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:09:03 AM EST
    with law degrees who have little logic, Acting degrees who can't act and psychiatrists who are lunatics and doctors who have killed people through incompetence.  So what, you have a law degree.

      You seem to have no problem condemning the legal actions of GZ and invading his privacy and can't even imagine why it would make sense to go into the city of Philly and do something that might address a real problem.  The real problem being an epidemic of minority youth carrying guns illegally and killing each other and a whole lot of bystanders.  Want to talk gun crime?  Forget the unusual and infrequent school shootings and movie theater shootings.  Probably cause would be the war zone these kids in inner city Philly and Chicago, LA. etc... grow up in and the statistics prove it.
    But of course we can't label any of those young people a racist white guy so it doesn't count.

    Parent

    We're down to "you seem to" (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:10:37 AM EST
    The words people use when the want to reframe the argument someone's making into a new argument they think they can win.

    Funny stuff.

    I was just pointing out that your sudden concern for 4th Amendment protections is interesting, given your prior positions on warrantless sweeps of urban areas for guns.  Now that you point out your idea of "probable cause" (living in a high crime area), I see the problem.  A selective desire to protect the constitutional rights of suburban/rural citizens while ignoring those of people who live in the city, coupled with absolutely no clue about what "probable cause" actually means.

    Forget the law degree ... an elementary school diploma probably overkill in terms of shredding your idea of probable cause ... not to mention logic.

    Parent

    it is not PC (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:04:43 AM EST
    to solve problems and actually stop the blood bath in inner cities.  How does taking the guns out of the hands of black and Hispanic youth in the inner cities feed the liberal narrative blaming racism from the right...ignoring racism on the left, for all the evils in our nation?  It doesn't, that is the problem.
    That's what I am leaving you with Yman.  Thank about it.  It's shameful.

    Parent
    You are saying (none / 0) (#139)
    by MKS on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:51:51 AM EST
    the guns should be taken away from black and hispanic youth?

    Yet, Zimmerman should have a gun?

    I really am not following this......

    If it is about self-defense, why should black and hispanic youth not have that right?  

    Parent

    They should also be disarmed from (none / 0) (#143)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:00:47 PM EST
    probably cause (none / 0) (#108)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:10:05 AM EST
    I actually have not made my mind up yet (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:03:22 PM EST
    on this case. Murder 2 seems really a stretch tho. For that I would like to know what prescription drugs Z was taking since that can effect state of mind. Manslaughter would be easier - depends on the rules of the game. Most of the testimony is subject to multiple interpretations and hypothetical scenarios none of which are proven.

    In any case, I think Z made many very bad judgements that night and then called up  an extremist political advocate, Hannity, to ask to go on his show. His lawyer showed very bad judgement to allow that and to go on the show himself. Either he did not advise against it or his client went rogue and he stuck with him, which does not speak well for either.

    I'm not blaming O'mara (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by ding7777 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:03:41 PM EST
    GZ, IMO, consistently makes poor judgements and sticks with them against professional advice

    IMO, GZ is both naive and headstrong... talking w/o a lawyer, apologizing to Sybrina in open court,
    the fiasco with the money, the Hannity interview.

    Parent

    Your opinion does not align (none / 0) (#187)
    by lily on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:25:40 AM EST
    with MOM answers to reporters' questions about GZ   participation in his defense.

    Parent
    interesting (none / 0) (#100)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:30:42 AM EST
    Mr. or Ms. Char Char Binks (reference Star wars - Jar Jar Binks) gives me a 1 rating meaning he/she thinks I made false statements regarding evidence (physical) or testimony (interpreted) or made personal attacks against a commenter.  Or was it for some other reason?

    Parent
    I gave you a 1 rating (none / 0) (#183)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:45:54 PM EST
    because Zimmerman didn't make "many bad judgments" that night (although maybe he should have watched his surroundings better, to avoid getting jumped by TM.)  And going on Hannity's show didn't display bad judgment -- He was getting hammered by the media, and appearing on a show with a sympathetic host was a way to get his side before the public.  It's probably not what I would have done, but I don't think it showed bad judgment.  Maybe I should have rated your comment a 2, but certainly no higher.

    Parent
    The media & Gladys Zimmerman (5.00 / 5) (#121)
    by SuzieTampa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:04:57 AM EST
    Each day, I Google news on the trial to see how it's being covered. Yesterday, most stories led with Nelson's rejection of the defense's motion for acquittal or Sybrina Fulton taking the stand. Some didn't mention Gladys Z or Jorge Meza at all, or they stuck it at the bottom of their stories.  

    One reason was technical: The latter's testimony came close or after the 5 p.m. (EDT) news. Today, more media outlets have it.

    Nevertheless, I find the coverage inexcusable. The media should have mentioned that judges very rarely grant the motion MOM made. Not mentioning that implied the prosecution's case was stronger than I think it is.

    Second, Fulton has given many interviews and news conferences.  There was nothing new in her testimony. Of course, it should have been part of coverage, but why make it the lede? On the other hand, Jorge Meza's testimony was very compelling because he identified GZ's voice before he knew what was on the news, and his desire to tell the truth was very convincing.

    Gladys Z's testimony, while expected, was still new, and I'm guessing most people have not seen her before.

    The appearance of Meza and Gladys Z also was potentially newsworthy because they are unmistakably Hispanic. That matters because of all the debate over George Z being white, Hispanic, or white Hispanic.

    The media (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:45:08 AM EST
    has the story they want to tell.  Telling the story of Zimmerman's family doesn't help their story-line.  If someone goes off the farm and makes the Zimmerman family interesting and sympathetic the rest of the media may follow.  But it will take a maverick reporter to start the trend.  In the meantime you would think someone would notice what a lot of hypocrites they had all been for months referring to GZ as white Hispanic. Half his latino background may be white, I don't know, but the other is black.  Clearly that doesn't help the story about racism that Crump Inc.  started and the media decided to latch on to.  

    Parent
    Z's call to the police might help and harm (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by David in Cal on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:11:21 PM EST
    Here's a thought from a non-lawyer.

    It is established that Z called the police and that the police were on their way.  It seems to me that this helps Z defend against murder 2.  If he had some animus toward Martin and planned to hunt him down and shoot him, he probably wouldn't have called the police.  They might have been witness to his committing of murder.

    OTOH, it seems to me the police call might hurt his defense against a charge of manslaughter.  He had reason to believe that the police would arrive imminently.  Therefore, he had less justification to shoot Martin in a way that might be, and was, fatal.

    You go the first part right. (none / 0) (#182)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:30:47 PM EST
    OTOH -- Making a split-second decision to use deadly force to prevent grievous bodily injury or death has nothing to do with whether or not the police may or may not arrive in time to save the day.  

    Parent
    he didn't shoot Martin until (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:03:26 AM EST
    until after he was attacked. The police hadn't arrived. As his professor testified, he doesn't have to wait for a near fatal blow. If the jury believes the professor and John Good (who is the only witness to get a good look of them during the struggle), who testified Martin was on top of him, straddling him, with his arms moving downward towards GZ, and GZ was trying to get up and couldn't, GZ would be justified in shooting Trayvon. If they also believe GZ, who said he tried to get away from Martin by sliding out from under him and couldn't, as Martin continued his attack, there's even more evidence.  There was no way for him to get away. If they have doubts, the case must be resolved in Zimmerman's favor.

    GZ didn't know where Martin was, and he says he came out of the darkness/bushes and confronted him and then hit him for no reason. He couldn't have anticipated or avoided that, and he certainly didn't have to wait for the police once attacked. The state has not produced any evidence to refute his version of the attack. Rachel Jeantel was not there, her phone call ended before any screams and she didn't hear any physical blows. She says the phone dropped and she could hear a little "get off." She said it could have been Trayvon saying that, but she was far from certain that's what she heard "i kinda heard it" and "I could hear a little bit". She also never mentioned that in her Crump interview, only added it at the end of her interview with the state's attorney. If she's right as to the words she heard, it could have been Zimmerman telling TM to get off of him. Less than a 30 seconds after Rachel and TM's phones disconnected, Lauer called 911 (according to both the state and defense timeline.) Rachel also has repeatedly said it was Trayvon who first spoke to Zimmerman, asking why GZ was following him. So it's clear the verbal confrontation was initiated by Martin.

    Parent

    I wish you kept Darden's post (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by Jack203 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 06:59:28 PM EST
    It was loaded with pure rage and justified attacking someone who has the nerve to be suspicious of you.

    A more clear-cut example of Trayvon's motive could not have been written better by OMara or West.


    Middle-aged white mother's opinion anyone? (4.00 / 8) (#28)
    by labrat on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:27:00 PM EST
    GZ's mother won the battle of the Mom's today.

    Who's screaming?

    Sybrina: Trayvon Benjamin Martin

    Gladys: That's my son.

    I don't know about how it is in your family but in mine you get your full name treatment when Mom is pissed.

    This Mom's armchair diagnosis. Sybrina is angry at her son and she's taking it out on GZ!!!

    Interesting theory, makes sense. (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by melamineinNY on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:01:08 PM EST
    Trayvon's mother's response about the scream struck me as unnatural, too.  

    Parent
    Your family maybe (2.67 / 3) (#126)
    by Palli on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:38:00 AM EST
    But in families I know, a mother, or anyone, would use the full name  in public as a proud announcement of kinship and a clear declaration of the humanity of a person in the face of others.

    Certainly that was the intention of Trayvon Martin's mother.

    Your reading for the use of the full name is limited to your experience. I doubt your mother ever testified at a public trial on the occasion of the death of her son or have you ever been accosted walking while black after sundown.

    Yes, I went there!  

    BTW: everyone should quit relating this trial to the OJ trial.  Apples and oranges.

    Parent

    Wrong time to use it, that's all. (none / 0) (#165)
    by melamineinNY on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:00:36 PM EST
    Palli - accepting what you say, it was still the wrong time for the mother to refer to her son in "us against them" public declaration mode, IMO, and your example of "walking while black" is precisely what should not be an issue in this trial. If Trayvon's mother had used her son's full name at any other point in her testimony, that would be altogether different.  

    Parent
    Your rational is subjective (none / 0) (#169)
    by Palli on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:01:47 PM EST
    When speaking or writing, the entire and full name is usually given and then, subsequently, the first name or last name is used as the identifier. Surely Trayvon's mother may call her son by his given name, his first name or a nickname.

    Why is the full name an "us against them" public declaration?  It is the full name of her son, missing from the proceedings.

    And regarding the desire to consider "WWB" out of legal bounds in this trial: just remember, it cannot and is not out of the mind of the witness- the mother of a dead boy. You can't take the history of African Americans out of the minds and hearts of African Americans.  

    Parent

    Ummmmm (3.67 / 3) (#2)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 04:41:41 PM EST
    "the only person with injuries was Zimmerman"

    If this was the case there wouldn't be a coroner's report.

    For some reason in fathomable to me, (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:12:38 PM EST
    Martiin's physical injuries are irrelevant here.

    Parent
    he had no physical injuries (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:43:42 PM EST
    a scratch on his finger which the medical examiner (not the one who did the autopsy) testified could be from having punched Zimmerman hours earlier.

    Pay particular attention when firearms ballistic expert Vincent DiMaio testifies -- he's also a pathologist.

    Parent

    Surely the gunshot wound qualifies. (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:58:01 PM EST
    Mobius strip? (3.67 / 3) (#80)
    by rob411 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:25:22 PM EST
    The gunshot wound qualifies when deciding who was screaming before the gunshot?

    Please explain, I'm sure it's fascinating.

    Parent

    Please explain how your comment relates (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:01:32 AM EST
    to mine.

    Parent
    Having punched Zimmerman hours earlier? (none / 0) (#127)
    by unitron on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:44:18 AM EST
    The abrasion may have come from "something" up to a couple of hours pre-mortem, as Bao indicated Friday, and it may have come from contact with something or someone just before or during the struggle, or anytime in between, but if anyone had anything close to evidence of contact between Martin and Zimmerman prior to a little after 7 pm that night, there's no way she knows about it and no one else does.

    Parent
    Is Dr. DiMaio's report and or deposition (none / 0) (#129)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:45:21 AM EST
    available now?  Thanks.

    Parent
    Zimmerman was the only one with (3.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 04:49:40 PM EST
    a gun, too, which if Martin could see it, could have been enough to cause him to be the one screaming.

    I'm still puzzled how Zimmerman screams since he's claimed that Martin had his hands over his mouth.

    Parent

    The hand to the mouth (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Luke Lea on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 04:55:07 PM EST
    was to make him shut up.

    Parent
    Which was apparently ineffective, given (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:15:13 PM EST
    defendant's statement that, when Mr. Good said he would call 911, defendant said, don't do that.  Police are on their way.  Help me.

    Parent
    I thought he said that to Mr. Manalo (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Teresa on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 08:12:45 PM EST
    (sp?), the first person who came out with the flashlight.

    Parent
    Two different occurrences... (none / 0) (#125)
    by unitron on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:34:04 AM EST
    ...one during and one after the struggle.

    During the struggle, before the shot, he supposedly told John Good, in response to Good saying he was calling 911, don't do that, come help me.

    Afterwards, when Jon Manalo asked if he should call 911, Zimmerman said he already had. Technically that's not correct, as he was referring to having called the non-emergency number, but apparently what he meant was that the police were already on the way.

    Parent

    Oh, okay (none / 0) (#138)
    by Teresa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:38:55 AM EST
    Was it in the reenactment video where he said that? I don't remember him saying that when he talked to the police (first two), but I'm possibly/probably wrong.

    I've only seen the reenactment when they played it in court and I may have missed it. I see why jurors take notes.

    Yeah, I think he'd ask the non-emergency guy to send the police (meet me at my truck, then just call me, etc).

    Parent

    Temporal Progression (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by Cylinder on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:42:21 PM EST
    I'm still puzzled how Zimmerman screams since he's claimed that Martin had his hands over his mouth.

    Zimmerman does not claim Martin's hands always covers his mouth and nose, or even that Martin ever completely covers his mouth and nose. This is one of those early arguments which is well past its bedtime.

    All things are not required to happen simultaneously, nor are they required to last indefinitely.

    Parent

    Time flies (1.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:19:08 AM EST
    when you're having fun.

    Parent
    Screaming on seeing a gun... (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by rob411 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:50:31 PM EST
    For at least 40 seconds? Near the end of which Martin was on top of GZ, raining blows, as per John Good?  'cause that was definitely after the screaming started.

    Seem a little odd to you? If you're screaming 'cause you saw a gun, shouldn't be steeping away from the gun in terror or struggling for the gun. And, if you got on top of the guy with the gun, wouldn't our priority be getting the gun away, rather than ringing blows? Or, if he gets on top of,you, wouldn't he just shoot you, rather than rain blows which cleverly leave no mark and then shoot,you?

    Parent

    Yes, becuase.... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by MikeB on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:43:36 PM EST
    ...in the first time in human history, a person didn't yell that he needed help because someone had a gun so everybody would know. Between Good's testimony and the fact that nobody yelled a gun was involved, you have to suspend a lot of common sense to make this square peg fit into the round hole.

    Parent
    Possible (none / 0) (#20)
    by chaking on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:59:50 PM EST
    rob411 - I want to say I read some of your posts in another thread and was impressed by your reasoning.  However, here, I'll say that it is possible TM was screaming because he saw a gun and was fearful it would be used on him.  It is possible he was on top and tried to stay on top to prevent the gun from becoming a part of the situation (you can't run fast enough to get away from being shot).  Due to the fact that we have a very incomplete picture of exactly what transpired, I think it certainly can't be ruled out.

    I don't personally believe it to be the case; however, it seems possible and I've been doing a lot of reprimanding of others for drawing specific or even a limited set of conclusions based on actions that could have been done for much different reasons.

    Parent

    Have you (5.00 / 0) (#34)
    by lousy1 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:56:18 PM EST
    Listened to the 911 tape? I hear screams of primal terror - not the type of screams that a man would make for 40 seconds because he realized that he was wrestling a man with a holster.

    Also if that was the case wouldn't TM have relayed that information to John Good

    If the gun was out for 40 seconds we should expect grabbing bruises on GZ's wrist.

    Parent

    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Jack203 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 07:37:23 PM EST
    "If the gun was out for 40 seconds we should expect grabbing bruises on GZ's wrist."

    Very good point.  West or Omara should bring this up to the jury.

    It was always borderline absurd to think it was TM screaming...but this is just more evidence.

    And the prosecution needs to prove it was over 95% chance that is exactly what happened.

    Unreal

    Parent

    Eh (none / 0) (#57)
    by chaking on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 08:46:07 PM EST
    I hear screams of primal terror - not the type of screams that a man would make for 40 seconds because he realized that he was wrestling a man with a holster

    Well that's your opinion.  It's a lot of people's opinion.

    However, it is feasible that someone who realized the person they were fighting had a gun would then fear for their life.  It's also possible that could trigger a type of plea that sounded much different than a person just yelling.

    Also if that was the case wouldn't TM have relayed that information to John Good

    It's certainly possible he would have said something to John Good.  It's also possible he wouldn't.  This doesn't really go anywhere.

    If the gun was out for 40 seconds we should expect grabbing bruises on GZ's wrist.

    If the gun was out for 40 seconds... How is that now a necessary thing for the other events to have transpired?  The gun doesn't have to be out to have an impact on a situation.

    Parent
    Yes (4.20 / 5) (#119)
    by Jack203 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:58:30 AM EST
    True, it's not necessary that TM would have been focusing on the gun instead of GZ's head.  It's not necessary that John Good see the gun.  It's not necessary that TM would have said anything to John Good about the gun.  It's not necessary that the screams started before the gun came out.  It's not necessarily that TM only had offensive wounds after the fight (assault), and George only defensive wounds.  It's not necessary that there is absolutely no logical reason TM could not have made it the 100 feet and home in over 2 minutes that GZ is talking very calmly to police after leaving the T.  It's not necessary there is no motive and that GZ has not even remotely displayed signs of being a lunatic out to shoot kids for no reason.

    But it is necessary when you add them all up, you have to abandon all logic and reason to think TM was the one screaming.

    And that is what has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

    This is a farce.  A political arrest, and anyone that spends more than 5 minutes to objectively look at the facts of the case knows it.

    Parent

    Thanks, Chaking (none / 0) (#85)
    by rob411 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:44:54 PM EST

    It's not the staying on top or screaming that's the problem. It's the rapid downward punching movement that John Good saw, which would seem a heck of a weird way to prevent getting shot.

    Parent
    To me, what made an impression (none / 0) (#148)
    by Teresa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:26:27 PM EST
    re: Good's testimony, besides the downward arms/hands movement, was what he said about the screams.

    I think you can tell if someone is screaming in your direction. At that time, GZ's face was toward him and TM's head was to the away side, facing the other townhomes. I think you can tell which direction a scream come from.

    I guess I put a lot of importance on Good's testimony. He was credible and also didn't want to be involved in this horrible mess at all.

    Parent

    Why (3.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:23:26 AM EST
    didn't we hear, "Don't shoot!", or "He's got a gun!", or  "911!"?  Because TM wasn't the one screaming.

    Parent
    The ME claimed to the jury (3.00 / 2) (#53)
    by lousy1 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 08:14:49 PM EST
    that TM was suffering in pain for 1 to 10 minutes after the shot.

     Can't the defense explore if that suffering was mitigated by TM's drug use?

    Are you serious? (4.00 / 4) (#73)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:32:07 PM EST
    The only evidence of drug use was the post-mortem report stating that the deceased had smoked pot sometime during the preceding few weeks.

    If you as defense attorney desire to hurt your client's chances by making yourself look like an unvarnished crackpot before the jury, I couldn't think of a better way to impart that impression than to pursue such an extremely dubious line of reasoning.

    At least then, were the defendant to be convicted, he could claim legitimately that he was represented by an incompetent counsel.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by bmaz on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:23:40 AM EST
    The Medical Examiner called by  the state as their witness today, in a hearing outside of the jury's ears, testified that he now believes there was sufficient THC in Martin's blood that he was impaired.

    Parent
    No - he didn't (3.50 / 2) (#117)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:32:54 AM EST
    The ME testified it could have had some effect, not that he "now believes there was sufficient THC in Martin's blood that he was impaired."  He was very clear on this issue in his testimony:


    WEST: Last fall, your opinion was the level of marijuana would have no physical or mental effect, correct?

    BAO: Yes, at that time.

    WEST: Now your opinion is it would indeed have at least some mental effect?

    BAO: Could be. I said could be...

    WEST: All right. Thank you.

    Regarding the intoxicating effects of marijuana in Trayvon Martin's system, it's now your opinion based upon additional research, consulting with other experts, that, indeed, there was some mental or physical defect by the level of marijuana that was this Mr. Martin's system?

    BAO: That's your opinion. My opinion is marijuana could have the effect or some effect.



    Parent
    Well played! (3.00 / 4) (#130)
    by bmaz on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:49:00 AM EST
    You have succeeded at taking a microscopic variation and pretending it is profound.

    Parent
    Those "microscopic variations" (3.50 / 2) (#131)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 10:17:19 AM EST
    "So doctor, is it your testimony that the trace amounts of THC demonstrate that the defendant caused the accident by operating his motor vehicle while impaired?!?"

    "Yes."

    As opposed to:


    "So doctor, is it your testimony that the trace amounts of THC demonstrate that the defendant caused the accident by operating his motor vehicle while impaired?!?"

    "It could be.  Or maybe he was impaired the day before, ... or the week before, ... or ..."

    So trivial and meaningless, aren't they?

    Heh.

    Parent

    For purposes (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by bmaz on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 10:29:13 AM EST
    ...of O'Mara's attempt to get the evidence in, yes, I don't think it particularly meaningful. If the medical examiner says Martin could have been under the influence, that leaves an opening for O'Mara to have his expert flesh out the matter. He needed an opening, and the ME gave him one. I made a quick comment from a mobil device, and you think you have solved world hunger by dissecting it. Press on with you quest by all means lad.

    Parent
    That was quite a stretch (none / 0) (#184)
    by MKS on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:46:40 PM EST
    of the evidence and testimony.

    Something more than that will be needed to overcome the prejudicial effect of trashing Trayvon...

    Parent

    If someone were charged (none / 0) (#212)
    by ding7777 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:29:42 AM EST
    with vehicular homicide, do you believe that the toxicology reort of the victim would be
    relevant or "trashing" the victim?

    Parent
    Is he trying to induce the defense ... (2.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:37:14 AM EST
    ... to actually go there? It almost sounds as though the state might be baiting them.

    Parent
    If Trayvon was under the influence of pot (none / 0) (#81)
    by Payaso on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:28:56 PM EST
    It would explain why GZ suspected he was on drugs.

    The ME testified today (outside the jury's presence) that he now thinks TM may have been "impaired" by marijuana.

    Parent

    If you're the defense, ... (none / 0) (#93)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:34:17 AM EST
    ... you don't even want to go there, and risk inducing jurors' sympathy for the prosecution's case by further trashing a deceased teenager who can't speak for himself.

    Remember, Trayvon Martin is not the one who's on trial here. As defense counsel, you wouldn't be serving your client well by courting a backlash from irritated or angry jurors, simply because you chose to overplay your hand in order to drive home a very dubious point about the deceased's use of marijuana, from which there's little to be gained and much to lose.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I completely disagree (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Darby on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 04:06:13 AM EST
    One of the main premises of the states 'argument' is that z falsely profiled T.  Z found him suspicious because T acted like he was on drugs. If the ME concluded T my have been impaired by the drugs in his system than it seems like it is the way the defense can discredit the  prosecutions theory.

    Parent
    would it all be different Don (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:34:13 AM EST
    if TM were 25?  Is GZ supposed to defend himself less and his lawyers supposed to give less of a defense because TM was a teenager?

    Think about it seriously.  Did the injuries hurt less, was the fear of serious bodily harm, still to come, lessened because TM was younger? Is it just "tough luck George, you were attacked by a teenager so shut up and take it"?

    Some of the people here keep mentioning his age as if that were a factor in this case and it is not. His youth and his race do not give the prosecution higher moral authority.  

    Parent

    False portrayal (none / 0) (#141)
    by Redbrow on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:57:56 AM EST
    Of the evidence. There were particular THC metabolites detected that  only remain detectable for hours after use, not days or weeks like other cannabinolds.

    Also, you completely disregard ME Bao's testimony that Martin could have still been under the influence.

    Parent

    A bullet to the heart (none / 0) (#99)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:25:23 AM EST
    would probably hurt, no matter what drugs he took.

    Parent
    Not for long (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Payaso on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 04:51:03 AM EST
    I heard both mothers testify (3.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Payaso on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:59:22 PM EST
    While they both might believe they are telling the truth, I don't see how anyone could make a positive ID under those circumstances.

    At most you could say "That may have been my son".

    Really? (3.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:39:26 AM EST
    I have heard both TM's voice and GZ's, and it definitely sounds like GZ screaming on 911.

    Parent
    or (none / 0) (#122)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:13:13 AM EST
    one of the mothers is knowingly not being truthful. Or they both really need to believe it is their son, as MOM said at his press conference.

    I tend to think I would know my son's voice. Rather I would know it was one of my son's, they are so alike. I would swear to it in court.

    There have been times when it seemed they were fighting to the death and their screams for help bordered on what I heard on that tape. Just kidding, sort of.

    Parent

    especially (3.00 / 2) (#216)
    by morphic on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:58:16 AM EST
    since DD claimed Trayvon was at his father's house. Than the phone disconnected. Reconnection twenty seconds later, and two minutes later the confrontation begin.

    the State has rested its case (none / 0) (#17)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 05:51:49 PM EST
    My understanding is that GZ wanted to go on Sean Hannity's show. I doubt MOM recommended that.

    I'm not so sure it was a mistake (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by labrat on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 06:30:17 PM EST
    Do an interview and put in just enough bad stuff to get the prosecution to play your side of the story - yet again - without ever having to testify and subject yourself to cross!

    Parent
    I really don't get the big deal about the hannity (none / 0) (#66)
    by Darby on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 09:32:08 PM EST
    Interviww.  What is this difference if he "lied" on hannity about SYG It isn't material to the event and he wasn't under oath.  Are we convicting people for lying in interviews?

    Is ones credibility really based on something like this?  

    It can be, yes. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:20:12 PM EST
    Obviously, given the hypercharged atmosphere that this particular trial has engendered, there are some people who will overlook practically anything the defendant has done or said in the past no matter how ridiculous or incriminating, while there are others who wouldn't take the defendant's word for it if he insisted that the sky was blue.

    But for those persons who are trying to keep an open mind about this case, little things like the defendant stating unequivocally on national television that he had never heard of Florida's Stand Your Ground law prior to the incident, only to be publicly contradicted in court with evidence that he took a college course that clearly discussed said law in some detail -- he even got an A in the class! -- could definitely be interpreted by some people as having impugned his credibility.

    I'm not saying that offering up that sort of definitive but disingenuous declaration on Sean Hannity necessarily hurt Zimmerman with jurors, but I certainly can't believe that it helped him any. I think he and his defense counsel can consider themselves lucky if it ultimately proves to be a wash.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Stand your Ground...typical persecution tactic (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Jack203 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:17:55 PM EST
    Let me get this straight...

    No evidence that SYG was on the test.  No evidence of a written answer or a written report by George.   And the professor isn't even sure he covered it during class??

    Are you kidding me? This is just yet again another meaningless line of attack from the persecution to distract from the actual FACTS and EVIDENCE of the case.

    If all they have is that Stand your Ground was in a TEXTBOOK for a class George attended, I find it absolutely ridiculous the persecution is wasting everyones valuable time bringing this cr@p up.  Here's a newsflash - 99% of students do NOT read an entire textbook front to back let alone remember everything in the textbook two years later.

    I can't even understand if they did have rock solid proof that GZ knew what Stand your Ground was 2 years ago, that it would mean a damn thing

    1.  How do we know he didn't forget  
    2.  He wasn't under oath.  It wasn't remotely  relevant whether or not GZ ever heard the phrase Stand your ground, or completely understood it  With all they lying going on by the scheme team at the time, you've got to be kidding to bring this up.
    3. Stand your ground doesn't even APPLY to this case!!! This is a SELF DEFENSE case.

    It truly boggles the mind.

    Parent
    Yes, do get the facts straight, as testimony (none / 0) (#152)
    by Towanda on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:00:19 PM EST
    by the teacher and many comments here make clear that SYG was not in the textbook.  But testimony by the teacher is that he covered it in class.

    Getting those points wrong weakens the argument on other points about learning, memory, etc., with which I agree.

    Parent

    And "covered in class" (none / 0) (#153)
    by jbindc on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:12:30 PM EST
    Could cover several lectures or a 5 minute mention as an aside.

    Parent
    Thanks for clearing that upTowanda (none / 0) (#203)
    by Jack203 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:23:29 AM EST
    No course materials whatsoever?

    It's even worse than I thought than.    

    I cannot believe that anyone considers this is even remotely relevant.

    Parent

    Well, lectures are course materials (none / 0) (#210)
    by Towanda on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:19:43 AM EST
    sometimes made available as transcripts, or there may have been handouts on the law, or -- this is why I have stated that just because people, like lawyers, have been students does not mean that they understand teaching sufficiently to frame truly useful questions.  All that I recall relevant to your point is that the law was not in the textbook, and I was waiting for the obvious -- to teachers -- followup questions on other course materials, test questions, etc. (as well as obvious followup questions on whether attendance was taken, the class grade skew, the class grade median, etc.).

    Parent
    SYG is a watchword for many gun owners (none / 0) (#192)
    by Palli on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:26:03 AM EST
    SYG is a law in Florida because it is a cornerstone of a certain American mindset. George Zimmerman would have to have been illiterate and totally isolated from gun shows, shops, radio and television to not know about SYG.
    If he participated during a criminology class discussion,  it would not have been his first exposure; although it could have been more accurately presented.
    SYG has recently become law in states with many conservative governments and is simply an "armed" extension of the adage that a person can protect his castle (home). American residential areas and gated communities have been segregated by design since our early days of society.
    All Americans should be conscious of the drastic changes the gun culture and SYG are making in our culture.


    Parent
    It goes to the weight (none / 0) (#193)
    by MKS on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:29:21 AM EST
    of the evidence, not its admissibility.   The "Prosecution" arguments can be countered during  Closing Arguments.  

    Parent
    No evidence (none / 0) (#77)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:42:59 PM EST
    .

    There is no evidence that Z was in class the day that law was discussed.  Even if he was in class there is no evidence he recalled one of dozens laws discussed.

    .

    Parent

    For that matter, there's been ... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 11:45:41 PM EST
    ... no evidence presented by the defense in rebuttal that he WASN'T in class the day the SYG law was discussed.

    In fact, given that he got an A in the course, I think most people would naturally assume that he was there, and further, had to at least demonstrate some knowledge about the law during an exam.

    Given that the defense hasn't invoked SYG in this case, but that George Zimmerman (a) publicly denied ever knowing about the law, yet (b) obviously took a college class in law enforcement during which the law was clearly discussed, I think it's pretty apparent that the prosecution means to use this particular contradiction to undercut the defendant's veracity as a credible witness on his own behalf in his statements to Sanford police. That's all.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    And the state Medical Examiner (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by me only on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:43:12 AM EST
    clearly didn't remember doing the autopsy on Trayvon Martin.

    So Zimmerman took a class several years ago in which on one day there was some discussion about the law.  It wasn't in the coursework.

    If the state ME can't remember an autopsy from a year ago that he spent hours on in a very unusual case, how should we expect Zimmerman to remember something spoken about in class 4 years ago?

    Parent

    It was not considered an unusual case at the time (none / 0) (#170)
    by Palli on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:17:02 PM EST
    The witness testified (none / 0) (#94)
    by bmaz on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:35:17 AM EST
    That he did not necessarily recall the subject being discussed under the name "Stand Your Ground". This issue is a minor diversion at best and is of little to no particular moment to the central core of facts.

    Parent
    I have gotten (none / 0) (#101)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:34:53 AM EST
    A's on tests and as final and semester grades in classes, but that doesn't mean I necessarily knew the answer to EVERY question, or attended every class, or learned all that there was to learn about the subject.

    Parent
    Maybe every student in the class (none / 0) (#207)
    by friendofinnocence on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:44:28 AM EST
    was given an "A".  Was there any testimony to the contrary?

    Parent
    the hannity interview was a diversion (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:40:32 PM EST
    Whether GZ remembered he took a criminal law course in which SYG was mentioned in class (it was not in the coursebook) has nothing to do with whether he acted with ill-will, hatred, spite or evil intent. In fact, the defense got the better of the state in the professor's testimony because it got the professor to instruct the jury on self-defense, and particularly that a person doesn't have to wait for a devastating blow before acting to stop an attack. He also brought out that the severity of the injuries doesn't determine self-defense.

    He even told the jury about what he called imperfect self-defense saying the disproportionate use of force doesn't negate self-defense.

    Also, as I'm sure the defense will point out in closing, the professor said he didn't address Florida's SYG law, just SYG in general. I also don't think there was testimony that GZ was present in class when he discussed SYG.

    GZ has never filed a SYG motion in this case.

    Parent

    There are two different (none / 0) (#96)
    by DennisD on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:16:25 AM EST
    issues here. The first is did O'Mara err in doing something that allowed the state to present evidence he didn't want in. The second is the damage that was created by that error.

    I defer to you, but I seem to remember that the JAG officer said that SYG was discussed. Being that Hannity simply asked Zimmerman if he had heard of the law, Zimmerman, at the very least, appears to be a liar. But O'Mara's error also allowed in evidence that shows Zimmerman has a good grasp of self-defense which now makes his story suspect in a way it hadn't been before.

    I don't think the state has gotten over the hurdle of disproving self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt largely because a lot of Zimmerman's story seems to hold up to scrutiny. But having a hand in   putting your client's credibility in jeopardy seems unforgivable and we'll have to see what the jury thinks.

    O'Mara did argue that the evidence allowed in was prejudicial, but it should never have gotten to that point.

    Parent

    The professor (none / 0) (#208)
    by friendofinnocence on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:57:03 AM EST
    didn't even recall if he described the law as SYG and it wasn't in the textbook.  It doesn't appear Z is a liar at all.  The State doesn't have a case and is trying to manufacture one with the "it's possible, indeed probable" line of reasoning the Italians used to railroad Amanda Knox.  The testimony shows it is possible the professor discussed SYG, it is possible Zimmerman was there and was paying attention when it was covered, so it is probable he is lying about having not heard about it.  According to the State.

    Parent
    O'Mara could mitigate the potential (none / 0) (#112)
    by MiddleOTheRoad on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:46:10 AM EST
    damage of Zimmerman's Stand Your Ground answer on Hannity by bringing in another person who has taken the class Zimmerman was in and asking them to explain SYG in detail. If a classmate of George's can't explain SYG very well, or can't remember the professor discussing that specific law, the professor's testimony is pretty much nullified. Remember, SYG is not mentioned in the text book, even though the prof claims he discussed it in class. Finding another class member who can not describe it in detail, especially how Florida's law differs from self defense in general, would help their case.

    Then he could bring in an expert who really understands Florida's very specific SYG law, and have them explain exactly how it changed Florida's original law that required a person who wanted to defend themselves from a criminal to retreat as far as possible and announce that they were going to shoot. Florida's SYG says lethal force is justified without retreat or notification when a reasonable person would believe that a criminal intends to inflict serious bodily harm or death. In other words, if an armed burglar is in your house waving their gun around, you don't have to climb out a window with your kids to escape and risk exposure to another burglar outside or risk getting shot at as you run away. You can stay in the safety of your house and legally protect yourself and your family. (Zimmerman's defense is not SYG related because he claims Trayvon Martin was holding him down. He was pinned on his back on the ground and had no option to retreat.) O'Mara could have the expert spend time citing examples where SYG was appropriately used. Once the jury's eyes start glazing over from the details, he could bring in a final witness to discuss the unlikeliness of someone being able to think about the SYG law they may have heard about years ago in a class, and decide if it's applicable in this case, and make a decision to shoot their attacker based on that law while they're on their back being pummeled by an attacker.

    Of course, the real issue is whether or no Zimmerman lied on national TV about knowing about SYG. They really need to find a sympathetic classmate to testify about the class.

    Now that GZ's mother has testified (none / 0) (#113)
    by chezmadame on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:59:07 AM EST
    will she be allowed in the courtroom as a spectator?
    Does the jury know why his parents haven't been attending the trial?

    No and yes (none / 0) (#134)
    by Towanda on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 10:59:14 AM EST
    The judge instructed her that she could be recalled, and the judge did so in front of the jury.

    Parent
    Knowing the streets in your community (none / 0) (#123)
    by SuzieTampa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:20:12 AM EST
    This is off the topic of Gladys Z, but I've been meaning to mention this. I find it believable that George Z would have trouble giving a street address.

    I live in a large apt complex, and I could only guess what the names of the other streets are. I don't know how many of you live in communities the size of the RTL. But I know my street address, of course. But when I give people directions to my home, I tell them to turn at the large sign for the community, then take a left, right, etc. When talking among ourselves, we never use street names. We reference geography, saying, for example, he lives near the pool or she's on the side facing (other apt complexes).

    I've lived more than half my life in apartments, and I don't think this is unusual. I realize that RTL is a community of townhouse condos, but many are rented now, and it's appearance is much like a large apt complex, at least in Central FL.

    Some people are good at street names (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Jack203 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:58:21 AM EST
    Others aren't.  Like me, which makes his story even more believable.

    I cringe when someone stops to ask me directions.

    Parent

    After watching the "reinactment" video, (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:02:47 PM EST
    I concluded defendant was looking for Martin, not a street sign.

    Parent
    The evidence points to (none / 0) (#146)
    by Jack203 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:21:28 PM EST
    most likely both

    Parent
    why (none / 0) (#147)
    by morphic on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:24:42 PM EST
    would he be looking for Martin? The housing development isn't a locked prison. Before Zimmerman got out of the vehicle, Martin could easily have fled the development.

    Parent
    Maybe Zimmerman was looking for Martin (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by gbrbsb on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 03:42:08 PM EST
    because he was an "effing punk", "up to no good", "on drugs or something", and one of those "a$$holes that always get away" ?

    I mean, think about it.  What kind of a neighbourhood watch guy would you be, if you saw one of those "effing punks" in your neighbourhood in the dark, "looking about the houses", while walking "leisurely" in the rain with no apparent purpose, and when he sees you watching him he starts "staring" at you, "coming towards" you, and even "circles" your car with "a hand in his waistband", but as you have called the cops who always arrive too late, you  just walk away, and that night one of your neighbour's kids ends up dead, shot in the heart by a an "up to no good" neighbourhood watchman... Ooops... ends up dead by one of those "up to no good effing punks"!

     

    Parent

    The fight (none / 0) (#209)
    by friendofinnocence on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:05:18 AM EST
    clearly started at the "T" because that is where Z's key and little flashlight - still on - were found, and where all of the credible witnesses said they first heard the confrontation. If Zimmerman was trying to hunt down Martin, after telling the NEN operator Martin had run between the buildings before he even got out of his truck, why was he at the "T" and why wasn't TM at Brandi's house?  Why was TM at the only place he would know Zimmerman might be - near his truck?

    Parent
    Why wouldn't he be trying to look for TM? (none / 0) (#150)
    by Jack203 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:41:25 PM EST
    To report to police, that he called, who were to arrive within seconds/minutes.

    George's M.O. reflected by dozens of incidents with NEN has always been to watch and report.  Never to confront.

    The persecution describes the fact he never remotely displayed any signs of wanting to confront anyone....as "increasing frustration".  Basically GZ snapped and decided to kill a black kid cause he's a lunatic racist.

    That is not the most likely scenario by a longshot.
    But it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Parent

    zimmerman (none / 0) (#155)
    by morphic on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:16:01 PM EST
    Since it was dark, and he apparently stopped, the wind noise died down in the dispatcher call, it's not easy to see where Trayvon would have gone.

    Parent
    Defendant seem Ed to make sure law enforcement (none / 0) (#151)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 12:41:41 PM EST
    contacted Martin.

    Parent
    Looking for Martin (none / 0) (#171)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:44:49 PM EST
    He may have been looking for Martin, or at least keeping his eyes open and watching in case he reappeared, but since he couldn't see him, he wasn't following, chasing, stalking, pursuing or hunting him down "like a rabid dog".

    Parent
    The president of the HOA (none / 0) (#124)
    by jbindc on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 09:25:27 AM EST
    testifed SHE didn't know all the street names.

    Parent
    Ditto. (none / 0) (#135)
    by Towanda on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:02:22 AM EST
    I always have to check the order of some streets near me.  I know the names but confuse which is two blocks away, which is three blocks away, etc.  

    And I am in an old neighborhood, with old-fashioned street names that differ considerably.  Some of the street names in newer subdivisions in my city are so duplicative as to be silly, as in Prettyflower Street intersecting Prettyflower Avenue, with Prettyflower Boulevard nearby.

    Parent

    Only 3 Streets in Complex (none / 0) (#158)
    by DennisD on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 02:29:27 PM EST
    "I find it believable that George Z would have trouble giving a street address. I live in a large apt complex, and I could only guess what the names of the other streets..."

    The problem here, if I understand things, is that there are only three streets in his complex. In fact, in one interview, Serano, the lead detective, told him that he had a problem, that it was curious, that he couldn't remember three streets. Again, if I remember correctly, Zimmerman responded that he had a bad memory which was caused, or worsened, by ADD and that he's on medication for it.

    Parent

    I'm not even sure how many streets (none / 0) (#167)
    by SuzieTampa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:55:12 PM EST
    are in my complex, because they bend around, as in RTL. Wait, I just checked Google maps and Mapquest, and it appears that there are only 2 street names.

    Parent
    Questons someone asked (none / 0) (#154)
    by Teresa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:15:17 PM EST
    I don't remember who it was, and it was deleted because it misstated a lot of facts, but I know the answer to a couple of questions that person asked.

    One was why GZ's jacket wasn't wet and have grass on the back. Multiple officers and others testified that it did and that's why they believed he was on his back.

    The other was about TM's DNA under his fingernails and why, if TM was banging GZ's head on the concrete, there was none.

    First, we don't know that for sure because of the way the fingernails were tested. One stick for five fingernails which is apparently an issue since the defense has asked so many times. I guess their expert will explain why that's important. Second, they didn't take fingernail clippings for a better kind of DNA testing (per TV forensics experts) than the Florida lab uses, and they didn't even take pictures of that side of his hands to show if he had any length to his nails to even be tested/clipped.

    One of the only places TM's DNA did show up was on GZ's back right shoulder. If TM was grabbing him by his shoulder/neck area and slamming his head down, his scratched up left finger could have left that DNA. It got there somehow.

    You asked about pants. TM's pants were very wet in front with grass stains. They weren't tested.

    I hope that helps. I wish I remembered the rest of your questions.

    Interesting new FL appellate case requires (none / 0) (#156)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:24:15 PM EST
    the defense in a criminal case to provide reports of every defense expert, even those the defense will not call as expert witnesses. Kidder

    So, I again ask, is defense pathologist's report and or deposition transcript (if any) available now on line?  

    Thanks.

    oculus none of the expert reports (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:14:55 PM EST
    seem to be public unless one side files a challenge. They exchange them with each other but they are not part of discovery. (Except for state employed experts like FDLE lab experts.)

    The only reason the voice experts reports were made public was because there was a challenge and a hearing.

    Even when they file a challenge, we may not get the report. For example, the state is challenging the opinions of a defense expert on the use of force named Dennis Root. We have not seen his report.

    We haven't seen a report by medical examiner Rao and didn't even know her identity until she testfied (there was only an objection by the defense to an unnamed medical examiner who had been dodging having his/her deposition taken since April) and we haven't seen the defense expert report of Vincent di Maio.

    Parent

    Thank you. (none / 0) (#180)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:27:28 PM EST
    Oculus, does that mean (none / 0) (#159)
    by Teresa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 02:38:39 PM EST
    having to disclose information that might hurt your case? That doesn't sound legal to me. Do I misunderstand? Not specifically this case, but any?

    I'm going to look for that report you've asked about, because I want to read it, too.

    Parent

    Maybe "it doesn't sound legal" but... (none / 0) (#161)
    by gbrbsb on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 04:46:35 PM EST
    it has to be fairer unless, justice is to be a game in which he who finds an expert to lie for the least amount of money, or he who can afford the best expert liar, is the winner.

    Disclosing everything sounds to me as it should be, otherwise it's called cherry picking !

    Parent

    But what about the right to (none / 0) (#163)
    by Teresa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 05:43:33 PM EST
    not incriminate oneself?

    I know it's not a game, but it's still the state's responsibility to prove guilt, not the other way around.

    Parent

    Well, that is... (none / 0) (#189)
    by bmaz on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:33:55 AM EST
    ...a totally sucky opinion. Such information should be protected attorney work product. But the obvious way around it is to get nothing but an oral report from your expert and then only order a written report if it is helpful.

    Parent
    SOP anyway (none / 0) (#196)
    by MKS on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:41:44 AM EST
    Expert reports (none / 0) (#197)
    by MKS on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:44:02 AM EST
    are generally inadmissible anyway.

    The written reports are generally just a tool for settlement.....

    Parent

    Yes. That is what the "Kidder' case holds. (none / 0) (#166)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:13:29 PM EST
    If I were giving out Emmy awards (none / 0) (#157)
    by Darby on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 01:54:30 PM EST
    The win goes to Fulton over Zimmerman.  But given their natural bias, from a factual basis o am going with John good who thinks the screams came from zimmerman

    I think the state is also hurt by trayvons brother giving an interview saying he couldn't really tell whose voice it is

    I am assuming the defense will call Tracy martin or the police officer to whom he admitted not recognizing the voice as trayvons.

    Until they lawyered  up seems  nobody identified the voice as martins.

    The really sad thing is there are two voices (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by gbrbsb on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 05:28:26 PM EST
    on the relevant part of the recording, but for whatever reasons, and even though both sides have accepted there is more than one, both have chosen to simply refer to the whole recording as if some kind of semi continuous screaming when it is not.

    I have isolated the recording into small relevant segments and with no enhancements have found:

    One soft, monotonous, voice, calling out or yelling, "help" or "help me" (audible to many) which is so similar to GZ's exemplars that I would swear it is him. I have isolated  6 like this albeit I am not sure one of them is GZ. They certainly fit with Zimmerman's story in which he was calling out/yelling for someone to help him "restrain this guy".

    The second is a totally different, high pitched, broken voice, screaming "a todo pulmón" with heart wrenching sounds, as if caught in some kind of painful arm, wrist or shoulder lock. Screams of the type I have only heard on a police video where they applied such a technique to control a suspect. This voice screams, no more than start the recording, the phrase "I'm begging you", and part overlapping there is another voice nearer the microphone, perhaps a neighbour, saying what I would swear was "... police shall be..."

    What I am absolutely sure is that they are two different people, because not even the top opera singer or ventriloquist could modulate their voice to the extent of screaming at full lung one millisecond, and a few milliseconds later, or at times overlapping a few, call out in a soft tone many decibels lower. The voice is a fantastic instrument, but imo it cannot do that, it just can't.

     

    Parent

    I'm not doubting you, but could (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Teresa on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 05:46:33 PM EST
    you point me toward something that shows there were two voices? Did any of the experts who didn't get to testify, or the FBI person who did, say that?

    I'll search if you don't have anything handy. I'm still stuck with no luck finding the defense's pathologist report.

    Parent

    There were limited written reports but... (none / 0) (#211)
    by gbrbsb on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:22:42 AM EST
    iirc, most of the audio expert's "opinion" was verbal during the Frye hearings. I haven't got written ones handy, but I can help with the autopsy if you haven't yet found it.  

    IIRC, BDLR (at a bail hearing), and MOM (in a recent presser) recognise there are two or more voices. In respect of the experts, bar Reich and Owen, none really listened to the recording as they only dealt with automated voice ID, not word recognition. Four of the six experts, including Nakasone for the State, concluded, A) there was not enough clean audio to test, B) automated ID is not suitable for screams, and C) Owen's results were flawed because he repeated the few seconds of clean audio to obtain a long enough sample to test. IMHO their conclusions were correct.

    Reich, was the only expert to attempt to discern words using "critical listening", a recognised technique. He was doubtfully going to be deemed suitable for this case considering his eccentric persona and some flowery conclusions.

    I am not an audio expert, but neither am I crank. And I am not a conman wanting to convince anyone either. I am simply someone with excellent hearing, according to tests, and a dogged patience combined with a love for truth.

    I can't help what I hear, e.g. "help" and "help me" 5-6 times (4 more discernible) and within the first 1.5 of the tape "I'm begging you", and several other other verbal utterances as well as screams. Of course IMBW, but despite my leaning towards one side of this case, I hear both parties so I don't see I can be that biased, and I took fully on board what Nakasone said about how the psyche can "fill in the gaps" so I take any steps I can to annul this. (Bias is why experts do blind tests with listeners who have no knowledge of what the recording pertains to, and iirc, that was another criticism against Reich).  

    What I hear is not an opinion, it is what I hear. OTOH, when I "swear" I can distinguish two voices using my ear and common sense, that IS my opinion and the common sense helps MY conclusions, e.g.: A. the impossibility for a voice to modulate between opposite extremes in milliseconds, B) the fact that GZ should have been at least a tad hoarse the next day, C) the fact that GZ never claims he "yelled/called out" anything other than "help/help me" when there are other verbal utterances on the recording, and D) GZ not only failed to recognise his own voice, but, if all relative verbal utterances on the tape are his, then he must also have failed to recall his own words, which imo he should have been able to recall, just  as he recalled yelling "help/help me", and just as he recalled everything Martin said.  

    When I have time I aim to upload a file with my isolations of the verbal utterances I distinguish more clearly so others can judge for themselves. Working out precisely where to isolate is the main difficulty because too little or too much can take you from hearing to not hearing, so patiently testing back and forth until you are as sure as you can be you have the start and end of each verbal utterance is most of the work.

    Finally, and so sorry to respond in such length, with experts barred, the jury alone will have to decide which side to believe. My sadness is that as lawyers for both sides are using the term "screams" to refer solely to one or the other calling out/yelling for "help", when there are other both verbal and non verbal utterances audible on the tape, (e.g. what imo is Martin's "I'm begging you" and other verbal utterances as well as 4 or 5 actual non verbal "screams") I fear the jury could equate all the utterances to be what the lawyers are referring to when talking about GZ or Martin calling out for help, lumping all the different verbal and non verbal utterances together as one and the same, when imo, they are not, and it would be important to distinguish if a fair conclusion is to result.

    Parent

    Police shall be... (1.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Char Char Binks on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:01:19 PM EST
    Did it sound like a quasi-religious carnival barker?

    Parent
    Character at Issue - Question (none / 0) (#172)
    by PittsburghFrank on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 08:52:48 PM EST
    The defense will also seek to introduce evidence concerning Martin's fighting. ... He mentioned the state's decision not to introduce good character evidence about Trayvon so as not to open the door to contrary character evidence the defense would then introduce.

    To all the folks out here.  I've been following this mainly through the TL forums.  Isn't there an argument that Sybrina Fulton opened the door to character evidence when she stated: "My youngest son is Trayvon ... Martin, he's in heaven." (Emphasis Added)

    Youtube Recording (Goto 2:10)

    While it may just be a figure of speech, her statement introduced into evidence presumes that he was of such good character as to "be in heaven."

    Maybe a bit weak to hang the hat on to push to introduce evidence of fighting etc, but what are folks thoughts.

    The other thought I had was that the fighting evidence is less character that ability.  A lot of folks have made hub-bub about the fact that GZ weighs(ed) 50 pounds more than TM.  It seems that TM's history of fighting/being in fights would be relevant to a defense argument that TM was capable of getting GZ onto the ground, etc.

    Again, folks thoughts?

    Judge Magster says no. (none / 0) (#174)
    by magster on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 10:08:49 PM EST
    She's his mom. What else do you expect? Had the prosecutor said, "why is he in heaven, and not hell?" then you'd have something.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#176)
    by PittsburghFrank on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 10:30:28 PM EST
    They should have expected that she would try her best to slip in about how angelic of a child he was.  That has been the argument from the pro-prosecution side for a long time: he was an innocent 17 year old. (angelic, going to heaven).

    By selected a witness that did that, (and not asking to strike and rephrase as they could have done), they opened the door (IMHO).

    Parent

    This is just silly (none / 0) (#177)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 11:04:56 PM EST
    Also, there are many narratives floating around. Why reduce them to Hannily levels and argue 'if you're not agreeing with me on everything then you MUST be against everything I say"? Its so gladiator stupid which you most likely don't care about. But it is also very counterproductive in swaying those of us who are still interested in the case and have not formed a final opinion yet. That is a problem for both sides of this case: arrogance.

    Parent
    zimmerman (none / 0) (#175)
    by morphic on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 10:21:12 PM EST
       If taken by surprise, any wimp can drop a he-man with a sharp blow to the nose.Making a big deal about being outweighed is just silly.IMO.And Zimmerman was obese.

    Parent
    In Heaven (none / 0) (#204)
    by Mr Mark Martinson on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:26:11 AM EST
    Some Christian groups believe everyone goes to heaven, believe it or not.

    Parent
    Significance of marijuana metabolites (none / 0) (#190)
    by Barry Elledge on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 01:27:36 AM EST
    I think the way the judge and the defense have treated the significance of marijuana metabolites in TM's blood may be missing the point.  The judge ruled the evidence inadmissible because the levels did not suggest TM was impaired at the time of confrontation.

    However, the real "impairment" might have been that the marijuana metabolite levels were TOO LOW.  If TM was a daily user, he might have developed a significant dependence upon marijuana to stay chilled out.  Recall that TM had been shipped away from his Miami home for a few days prior to the GZ encounter.  He may well have had little or no access to his usual marijuana hit for that time.  And as a consequence he might have been unusually edgy and aggressive.

    Now I know some commentators will reply that marijuana isn't addictive, and if you compare the effects of chronic use of cannabis to opiates they are quite different.  No one dies from cannabis withdrawal (at least not directly).  However, many putative authorities will grant that cannabis is at least "psychologically" addictive or dependence-inducing.  In my experience (non-professional; I spent a number of years on college campuses and knew several daily users as friends and acquaintances) chronic potheads need that regular recurring hit to remain mellowed out.  The kind of calm disposition that most of us would consider normal could only be maintained with regular self-dosing.

    So my guess is that the defense needs to establish that TM smoked regularly, and that the cannabis metabolite levels at his death were lower than what one might expect from a daily user.  The effect of cannabis withdrawal would be a more irritable and angry disposition, entirely consistent with TM's behavior that evening.

    I don't think where he wasl staying (none / 0) (#198)
    by Darby on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:07:59 AM EST
    Provides a character reference. His mother and brother pointed out that he lives at home. And I think they said visited the dad on weekends.  It might be worthy of note that he was spending two weeks with his dad  not specifically why, just that he was at his dad more than just weekends.  Also, accordin to his step mom, she raised him more than sybrina did. Not sure if that relates to how much time was sent with which parent r not.

    He was legally within the complex (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by MKS on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:12:24 AM EST
    regardless of whether it was for two weeks or for longer....That is what is relevant.  Trashing his family is not legally relevant.

    Parent
    Trayvons family portrayed themselves in (1.00 / 0) (#200)
    by Darby on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:16:57 AM EST
    A certain light, if that was false, the jury is entitled to know it. I has to do with truth, not trashing.

    Parent
    The portryal of Trayvon's (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by MKS on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:21:22 AM EST
    family was in the press and on discussion boards; I don't remember any such evidence at trial.

    Just as evidence of Zimmerman's past has, for the most part, not been admitted.

    If someone makes character an issue, then the door has been opened so to speak.  But that does not appear to have happened in this trial.

    Parent

    When did (none / 0) (#213)
    by ding7777 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:36:16 AM EST
    GZ say "illegally"?  I thought GZ said TM was acting suspiciously