home

UK Detains Glenn Greenwald's Partner for 9 Hours

Update: Britain has an independent reviewer of its terror legislation, David Anderson QC. He investigates and prepares reports on the legislation for submission to Parliament. Here is his latest report on terror stops at airports.

****

David Miranda, the partner of journalist Glenn Greenwald, was detained and questioned for 9 hours at Heathrow today presumably for reasons related to Glenn's disclosure of the Edward Snowden documents. He is a Brazilian citizen who resides with Glenn in Brazil. He was detained under Schedule 7 of the 2000 Terrorism Act.

The law allows authorities to detain people at airports, border areas and ports for questioning in a terror-related investigation. Most interrogations last less than an hour, not 9. Also, police confiscated his "mobile phone, laptop, camera, memory sticks, DVDs and games consoles." There is no right to an attorney during questioning, and refusal to answer questions is a separate criminal offense.

Glenn writes in the Guardian that the detention will have the exact opposite effect of the one intended by the Government.[More...]:

If the UK and US governments believe that tactics like this are going to deter or intimidate us in any way from continuing to report aggressively on what these documents reveal, they are beyond deluded. If anything, it will have only the opposite effect: to embolden us even further.

The Brazilian Government had this to say

The Brazilian government expresses grave concern about the episode that happened today in London, where a Brazilian citizen was held without communication at Heathrow airport for 9 hours, in an action based in the British anti-terrorism legislation. This measure is without justification since it involves an individual against whom there are no charges that can legitimate the use of that legislation. The Brazilian Government expects that incidents such as the one that happened to the Brazilian citizen today do not repeat.

Amnesty International says the detention was unlawful and unwarranted.

< Schapelle Corby Approved for Parole | Oscar Pistorius Court Appearance >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    WTF? (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 07:25:28 PM EST
    This is over the top.
    What is the difference between fascism and this?

    zero, imo.

    Seems that the UK goverment... (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by redwolf on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 07:59:38 PM EST
    is an extension of our own.

    Parent
    The UK (none / 0) (#51)
    by desertswine on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:47:56 PM EST
    has become America's poodle, a'la Tony Blair.

    Parent
    The (none / 0) (#71)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:06:56 PM EST
    way us Yanks lap up anything with an English accent, and drool over the Royal fking family.... I'm not sure who the poodle is and who is wagging what.

    Parent
    I am horrified (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 08:12:04 PM EST
    How awful

    The NYTimes has more on this story (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Politalkix on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 10:39:20 PM EST
    link

    It seems Mr. Miranda was not just a partner of Mr.Greenwald, he was also acting as his courier.

    From the article
    "Mr. Miranda was in Berlin to deliver documents related to Mr. Greenwald's investigation into government surveillance to Ms. Poitras, Mr. Greenwald said. Ms. Poitras, in turn, gave Mr. Miranda different documents to pass to Mr. Greenwald. Those documents, which were stored on encrypted thumb drives, were confiscated by airport security, Mr. Greenwald said. All of the documents came from the trove of materials provided to the two journalists by Mr. Snowden. The British authorities seized all of his electronic media -- including video games, DVDs and data storage devices -- and did not return them, Mr. Greenwald said."

    That explains everything... (5.00 / 6) (#16)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:25:08 AM EST
    Greenwald and his partner are terror suspects, in possession of explosive materials...heckuva job UK!  Truth, justice, and liberty survive another day.  Close one!

    Parent
    Yep. (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    They're definitely "explosive materials." Explosive in that they will expose even further what Britain's special friend the United States is up to, but what Britain is up to, as well. Things that the USA and the UK would rather remain hidden. Things that supposedly free citizens should not be subjected to. Things that will further anger said citizens, as if we weren't angry enough already. (At least, those of us who care deeply about our right to privacy and believe in civil liberties. D@mned right, we're angry.)

    Parent
    It was only a matter of time... (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:26:11 PM EST
    till all the new powers granted to the state in fear and haste to fight terrorism were turned around and used on anybody the state don't like.

    First they came for the terrorists, then the drug dealers, then the journalists.  Tomorrow?  Who knows...maybe internet commenters.  

    See ya in no due process detention!

    Parent

    Tomorrow? (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:32:24 PM EST
    They'll come for the internet commenters who supported them, first.

    Parent
    Internet Commenters... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:44:24 PM EST
    ...what about people who search the wrong things, they are already being investigated.  Don't dare Google a canning devise recently used in Boston or the Gestapo will pay you a visit.

    It was a sad day last week when I trying to remember the liquid explosive they used in mining for a comment, but decided Goggling it wasn't in my best interest.

    Parent

    Well, I not only (none / 0) (#46)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:22:38 PM EST
    Googled a certain type of canning device, I actually ordered one on the Internet and had it delivered to an older friend of mine, who wanted to start canning.  I had told her that I could find a pressure canner on the Internet much cheaper than any she could buy in local stores.  (She does not have a computer.)  And, in fact, that was the case.
    So far, at least, neither of us have been visited by the gendarmes.  Although, if I suddenly disappear from this forum and do not comment any more, perhaps look for me at Gitmo.  Or in a cell next to José Padilla.

    Parent
    Refuse (none / 0) (#69)
    by Mikado Cat on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:57:30 PM EST
    to be intimidated, and search as you please. If they show up raise as big a stink as possible. Its a good way to stop the nonsense.

    Parent
    Yeah... (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 10:07:21 AM EST
    ...do a search here, there was a story about a woman whose husband went through the FBI showing up at 9am.

    Sorry, but your internet bravado may be noble, but I would rather not be put on a list and deal with the 6 or 8 FBI agents showing up at 9am at front and back doors.

    Plus of course I am at work, and that is just another layer of hassle I am not going to deal with just to find the name of something I couldn't remember.

    Knowing what battles are worth fighting and which ones are worth ignoring is being smart IMO.

    Like the guy in DC with a license plate 'NO TAGS' who spends every day of vacation in court fighting all the $20,000 of tickets for cars with no tags.  Noble for sure, but not a battle I think is worth fighting.

    Parent

    Oy (none / 0) (#73)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:08:45 PM EST
    Maybe (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:05:16 PM EST
    it's true that he was delivering documents...

    but - it sound a little World War Twoish to me - guys in trenchcoats and all.

    What with fax machines, email - even regular mail - Fedex etc...
    This guy has to carry documents?

    Parent

    Mayhap (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:12:14 PM EST
    What with fax machines, email - even regular mail - Fedex etc...
     This guy has to carry documents?
    Doesn't it make you wonder what Greenwald et al know that they haven't yet reported?

    Parent
    He says (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:26:46 PM EST
    that there is plenty to come - and now he's really mad.

    This should be interesting.

    Parent

    The "documents" (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:40:30 PM EST
    were on a thumb drive. I suspect that, given the recent shut-downs of Lavabit, an email encryption service used by Edward Snowden, and the start-up Silent Circle, perhaps Greenwald did not trust using email. And, if I were him, I would not necessarily trust the regular mails, or for that matter, FedEx, etc, either.

    Parent
    I see (none / 0) (#81)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:06:44 PM EST
    your point.

    It's hard to trust anything these days.

    Maybe a pigeon?

    Parent

    And then perhaps (none / 0) (#82)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:32:49 PM EST
    Homeland Security, and the British equivalent, will no doubt train hawks to take those pigeons down. ;-)

    Parent
    What (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:40:51 PM EST
    about if they disguised the pigeon to look like a seagull?

    Parent
    Basically the guy they detained was acting as an agent of someone known to be in possession of stolen classified material.  That explanation makes a lot of sense.

    Parent
    I would expect that (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:07:34 PM EST
    to be your take-away from this story.

    Parent
    So they released him. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:11:56 PM EST
    btw, you have a link substantiating "known to be in possession of stolen classified material", of course?

    You just forgot to post your link? Of course.

    Parent

    Those facts have long been substantiated (2.33 / 3) (#63)
    by Thorley Winston on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:16:30 PM EST
    Unless you think that Greenwald is lying about having received copies of at least some of the classified information that Snowden stole.  

    Parent
    How could it be stolen? (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:13:12 AM EST
    We, the American taxpayers, paid for it.  We own it.  It's ours.

    I, for one, want the information I (most reluctantly, by threat of violence) helped pay for to be liberated.  Snowden didn't steal sh*t.  

    Parent

    I know you won't agree (none / 0) (#119)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:41:47 AM EST
    But here's another perspective by Jeffrey Toobin:

    The assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert F. Kennedy led directly to the passage of a historic law, the Gun Control Act of 1968. Does that change your view of the assassinations? Should we be grateful for the deaths of these two men?

    Of course not. That's lunatic logic. But the same reasoning is now being applied to the actions of Edward Snowden. Yes, the thinking goes, Snowden may have violated the law, but the outcome has been so worthwhile. According to Glenn Greenwald, the journalist who was one of the primary vehicles for Snowden's disclosures, Snowden "is very pleased with the debate that is arising in many countries around the world on Internet privacy and U.S. spying. It is exactly the debate he wanted to inform."

    In this debate, Snowden himself says, those who followed the law were nothing better than Nazis: "I believe in the principle declared at Nuremberg, in 1945: `Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring.' "

    To be sure, Snowden has prompted an international discussion about surveillance, but it's worthwhile to note that this debate is no academic exercise. It has real costs. Consider just a few.



    Parent
    That bootlicker is off his rocker... (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:52:56 AM EST
    comparing the illumination of our surveillance industrial complex to the murder of MLK? Seriously?

    My main beef isn't the NSA breaking the law...the law is a joke.  It is all that the NSA does legally and illegally.  

    Parent

    Counter point by Charlie Pierce (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:58:21 AM EST
    I am sorry, but I'd forgotten how, at trial, James Earl Ray mounted a defense saying that he'd iced Dr. King in order that the country might have more effective gun control.....We have no idea what damage Snowden may or may not have caused. The NSA would like to tell us but, goshdarnit, they just can't. And, of course, they are all honorable men. This is so far off the plane of the ecliptic that Toobin's already halfway to Mars..
    ...
    This is both mendacious and completely ahistorical. Snowden here is not remotely comparing anyone at the NSA to the Nazis, unless you believe that the Nuremberg principles, which were adopted after the defeat of Nazi Germany, were adopted merely to prevent the rise of the Fourth Reich somewhere in the world. Rather, they were statements in law acknowledging that what Hitler's Germany did changed the paradigm of both nationalism and patriotism forever by perverting both of those concepts to monstrous ends. They apply universally. Is Toobin seriously arguing that the United States is, simply through its own inherent goodness, a place where the principles it primarily expounded do not apply? To say a country violated them is not to say that country is run by Nazis. It is to say that a country should check itself before it wrecks itself, and that its citizens have obligations to the common humanity that may supersede adherence to national laws. This is something with which, among other folks, Dr. King would have agreed.
    ...
    Ah, the old "liberal anti-Communist" position gets rebooted for the 21st Century. If Toobin wants to accuse Snowden of espionage, he should man-up and do it. Otherwise, this is just incoherent. We can't have "some legitimate debate about the extent and legality of American surveillance operations" because one side of the debate is swathed in secrecy and duplicity. (There is simply no logical reason to take anything the NSA says on this topic in good faith.) As to the plight of Chinese and Russian dissidents, if Toobin can demonstrate plausibly how, in revealing to Americans what their government has been about, Edward Snowden has somehow made their plight worse, then he should show his work. Otherwise, he's just waving the bloody shirt. Read the whole thing



    Parent
    A little tidbit about Toobin (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 03:12:53 PM EST
    from the files of "Do as I say and not as I do."

    Toobin's campaign against Snowden and in defense of the government's right to protect sensitive national security secrets is incredibly hypocritical, given his past history.

    In journalist Michael Isikoff's book, Uncovering Clinton: A Reporter's Story, he described how Toobin was caught "having absconded with large loads of classified and grand-jury related documents from the office of Iran-Contra independent counsel Lawrence Walsh" in 1991:

    Toobin, it turned out, had been using his tenure in Walsh's office to secretly prepare a tell-all book about the Iran-contra case; the privileged documents, along with a meticulously kept private diary (in which the young Toobin, a sort of proto-Linda Tripp, had been documenting private conversations with his unsuspecting colleagues) were to become his prime bait to snare a book deal.   Toobin's conduct enraged his fellow lawyers in Walsh's office, many of whom viewed his actions as an indefensible betrayal of the public trust.  Walsh at one point even considered pressing for Toobin's indictment.

    ...
    In 1991, the New York Times published this editorial by John P. MacKenzie on Toobin's book on the criminal investigation into Iran-Contra. It lambasted Toobin and the concluding paragraph was the following:

    Lawyers often write self-praising books, but they don't usually betray clients and bosses or spill secrets that aren't theirs to sell. Mr. Toobin is no First Amendment hero but an opportunistic practitioner who searched for contract loopholes while his colleagues focused on Iran-contra. One wonders whether Mr. Toobin, as a junior Federal prosecutor now or in practice later, will need an ironclad no-publish contract to win the trust of his witnesses, clients or superiors. link



    Parent
    Lordy (none / 0) (#130)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:25:53 AM EST
    Speaking of "lunatic logic", Toobin ought to examine his own.

    Parent
    NO he's not. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:24:08 PM EST
    You are claiming Miranda was in possession of it at the time of his "interrogation".


    Parent
    Here's what he had (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:28:24 PM EST
    Mr. Miranda was in Berlin to deliver documents related to Mr. Greenwald's investigation into government surveillance to Ms. Poitras, Mr. Greenwald said. Ms. Poitras, in turn, gave Mr. Miranda different documents to pass to Mr. Greenwald. Those documents, which were stored on encrypted thumb drives, were confiscated by airport security, Mr. Greenwald said. All of the documents came from the trove of materials provided to the two journalists by Mr. Snowden. The British authorities seized all of his electronic media -- including video games, DVDs and data storage devices -- and did not return them, Mr. Greenwald said.

    Link

    Parent

    read what you post (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:34:22 PM EST
    "documents related to Mr. Greenwald's investigation"

    You think they would have released Miranda if those "documents related to Mr. Greenwald's investigation" were classified documents?

    Sheesh. It's no wonder I rarely reply to anyone here anymore...

    Parent

    Read again, I made no such claim (2.67 / 3) (#67)
    by Thorley Winston on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:38:22 PM EST
    I wrote that Miranda was "acting as an agent of someone known to be in possession of stolen classified material."  The "someone" was the principal he was acting as the agent for which would be either Greenwald or Snowden.  

    Parent
    You know what gets me? (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by sj on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 11:33:12 PM EST
    Or rather, one of the many things that get me? The people making these decisions have absolutely no understanding of human nature. How can they possibly not see how this will likely backfire on them in a big way?

    Was their plan to enrage Glenn Greenwald (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Aspidistra on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:41:51 PM EST
    and drive him into a blind fury? Because if that was the plan, then they have succeeded admirably. Otherwise, not so much. I am trying to imagine the mindset of people that did this, and I just can't - did it really not occur to them that this actions would be a major PR disaster (as well as an intelligence failure I'm willing to bet).

    Parent
    I actually can't believe (none / 0) (#29)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:33:58 PM EST
    it took them this long to do something like this.

    Parent
    Okay... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:48:19 PM EST
    ...well then there's that. I agree with you. But they still have no understanding of human nature.

    Parent
    Hopefully it's changing (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    but for thousands of years they've understood quite well that the majority of people will usually fall for authoritarianism in pretty much all of its manifestations, unfortunately, I think...

    Parent
    Roll that old reliable Goering quote... (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:57:03 PM EST
    Give your people an "enemy" and they'll give you all the power you need, not over the "enemy," but over themselves.  Pitiful.

    Parent
    Oh, hell... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:22:18 PM EST
    "Eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions god's infinite love."
    -- Bill Hicks

    "amen" ;-)

    Parent

    The U.S. has been doing (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:11:41 PM EST
    "something like this" for quite some time. Laura Poitras who partnered with Greenwald on Snowden has been harassed for speaking out in films.

    Since the 2006 release of "My Country, My Country," Poitras has left and re-entered the U.S. roughly 40 times. Virtually every time during that six-year-period that she has returned to the U.S., her plane has been met by DHS agents who stand at the airplane door or tarmac and inspect the passports of every de-planing passenger until they find her (on the handful of occasions where they did not meet her at the plane, agents were called when she arrived at immigration). Each time, they detain her, and then interrogate her at length about where she went and with whom she met or spoke. They have exhibited a particular interest in finding out for whom she works.

    She has had her laptop, camera and cellphone seized, and not returned for weeks, with the contents presumably copied. On several occasions, her reporter's notebooks were seized and their contents copied, even as she objected that doing so would invade her journalist-source relationship. Her credit cards and receipts have been copied on numerous occasions. In many instances, DHS agents also detain and interrogate her in the foreign airport before her return, on one trip telling her that she would be barred from boarding her flight back home, only to let her board at the last minute. When she arrived at JFK Airport on Thanksgiving weekend of 2010, she was told by one DHS agent -- after she asserted her privileges as a journalist to refuse to answer questions about the individuals with whom she met on her trip -- that he "finds it very suspicious that you're not willing to help your country by answering our questions." They sometimes keep her detained for three to four hours (all while telling her that she will be released more quickly if she answers all their questions and consents to full searches). link

    Another long but interesting article about Ms Poitras and her involvement with Snowden. NYT

    Parent

    Thank you for that information (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Babel 17 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 03:56:21 PM EST
    It's absolutely chilling but it's important to know.

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#47)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:25:15 PM EST
    That is an amazing article. Thank you.

    Parent
    btw (none / 0) (#54)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:15:55 PM EST
    That story could be the basis of a screenplay. It was gripping. The outcome is still in question, though.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#61)
    by Babel 17 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:11:15 PM EST
    Though a documentary might serve truth better.

    Parent
    You're right, of course (none / 0) (#72)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:07:22 PM EST
    I believe that Poitras is working on one.

    Parent
    Terror-related investigation? (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:11:47 AM EST
    Well, Miranda is the partner of someone who terrifies them. Ergo he is a terrorist.

    Such an abuse of power (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:05:06 AM EST
    I know it is the UK, but I want to know if we had a hand in this of any kind, special relationship and all.

    The powers that be tell us they would never abuse their spy powers, but when our special close friend is abusing their anti-terrorism powers while laughing in the faces of the stunned and dancing a jig it gets a little hard to believe.

    Parent

    WH Deputy press secretary says: (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:10:27 PM EST
    From The Guardian's live-blog of developments:

    White House: US was given 'heads up' before Miranda detained

    This is more interesting: Earnest admits that the White House was given a "heads up" over Miranda's detention yesterday.

    "We had an indication it was likely to occur but it's not something we requested," he says.

    Pressed further, he says the US was told Miranda would be detained before he arrived at Heathrow airport in London. Earnest refuses to say whether Miranda was on a terror watch-list either in Britain or in the US.

    He would not comment on whether the US discouraged the UK from holding Miranda before his detention.

    They keep pressing for answers, and we've gotten from "you'll have to take this up with the British government" to "well, we did get a head's up but we weren't behind the detention."

    Wonder where it will be this time tomorrow.

    There are some in British government who are livid:

    * MPs have decided to use a parliamentary inquiry into terrorist legislation to force the police to explain why David Miranda, partner of the Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald, was detained for almost nine hours at Heathrow airport under a controversial anti-terror law. The law (schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act) is only supposed to be used to stop people suspected of being involved in terrorism. (See 4.32pm.) Keith Vaz, the chair of the Commons home affairs committee, used a letter to Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan police commissioner, to pose a series of questions about the affair. (See 5.16pm.) He issued this statement.

       This is an extraordinary twist to an already complex story. It is right that the Police have these powers but it is important that they are used appropriately.

        I have today written to the Metropolitan police commissioner asking him to clarify this use of the Terrorism Act and whether it was implemented at the behest of another government. We need to establish the full facts. I am concerned about the message this sends out to all those who transit through the UK. Our legislation needs to be used proportionately.

        The home affairs select committee will begin an inquiry into terrorism shortly and we will certainly be looking at this issue very closely.

    Britain's independent reviewer of terrorist legislation, David Anderson QC, has also said he wants to be told why schedule 7 was used to detain Miranda. And Labour has demanded a full explanation. (See 12.54pm.)

    Is there anyone who believes what either government is saying about this?

    Parent

    And a little more... (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:04:39 PM EST
    from The Guardian:

    * Earnest (deputy WH press secretary) would not deny that the US had obtained access to Miranda's electronic material. Several items, including laptops, were seized at Heathrow. Asked by a reporter to "rule out that the US has obtained this material", Earnest said: "I'm not in a position to do that right now."

    I bet you're not...but the position you are in is a doozy.

    Parent

    We'll probably (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:26:32 PM EST
    need a leak of some top secret communications to know the answer to that, I guess.

    Is tomorrow soon enough? ;-)

    Parent

    BBC a few minutes ago... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:49:48 AM EST
    Greenwald:
    "They never asked him about a single question at all about terrorism or anything relating to a terrorist organisation.

    "They spent the entire day asking about the reporting I was doing and other Guardian journalists were doing on the NSA stories."

    He said he would respond by writing reports "much more aggressively than before" and would publish "many more documents".

    "I have lots of documents about the way the secret services operate in England. Now my focus will be there as well," he added.

    "I think they are going to regret what they did."

    Yup. Obviously a terrist.

    Yeah... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:37:20 PM EST
    ...and obviously the NSA has nothing to do with the United States.

    I am seriously shocked at how Europe has towed the line for the US when it's documented that they were not safe from our prying eyes.  

    It defies logic and I have to wonder exactly what we have that they fear to this degree, or what GG has they fear even worse.

    Parent

    Toed (3.00 / 1) (#38)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:40:10 PM EST
    This is Why I Suck at Grammer... (none / 0) (#41)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:50:02 PM EST
    ...because there is no logic to it.

    Toe the line is correct, but IMO tow the line makes logical sense.  But thanks Squeaky for your fine contribution.

    Parent

    The Logic (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:17:22 PM EST
    Putting your toe on the line along with everyone else who drank the kool-aid, conforming to the rule.

    Parent
    Seriously... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:37:56 PM EST
    ...is there nothing you won't argue.

    I don't care and if I had my choose, you would never post behind me with your never ending idiocy that has nothing to do with the post.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:44:36 PM EST
    Certainly not arguing, just trying to help you out there Scott as you indicated that the logic of toeing the line failed you.  

    I guess it is a sensitive topic for you or something.

    Parent

    European eyes... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:48:54 PM EST
    have been prying on us too..."allies" probably spy on each other just as much as "enemies" do, if not more...since there is more opportunity to spy.

    Makes sense that the UK and Europe will carry our water to catch the information liberators and the journalists who report for them, so they can all resume spying on each other and play their bullsh*t power and influence games in peace.

    Parent

    I think it's Safe to Call This... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 03:27:45 PM EST
    ...an International Incident.

    Current Healine at NBC News:

    Snowden leak journalist: Britain will regret detaining partner at airport

    Other mentionables:

    Greenwald told reporters he has many more documents to report on, including ones about the UK. He said he thinks British authorities would come to regret their actions.

    Brazil's government complained about Miranda's detention in a statement on Sunday that said the use of the British anti-terrorism law was unjustified.

    There was also disquiet in Britain about the move. Tom Watson, member of parliament for the opposition Labour Party, called it "an embarrassment to the Government."

    "What I think we are going to see is this is sort of the intelligence services overstepping the mark - they are clearly trying to intimidate Glenn Greenwald - and that's an attack on journalism," Watson told the BBC.

    "I think politics needs to intervene to make sure it doesn't happen again," he added.

    I can't wait for the justification, that is gonna be one hell of a dooooozy.

    I am curious as Greenwald's rationale (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:22:08 PM EST
    in having The Guardian employ his partner as the courier.

    I have read that GG is very busy (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:52:10 PM EST
    With reporting, researching Snowden information, he is also on the hook for writing a book. As a spouse this seems normal to me.  If one of you is very busy bringing home bacon the other one is often tasked to do work related errands.

    Parent
    Yes indeed. 100% normal to (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:16:05 PM EST
    ask your Brazilian citizen sign. other to go under the auspices of The Guardian as a courier transporting leaked classified material. I'm busy bringing home the bacon. Just text if anything goes awry.

    Parent
    Ha ha ha (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:25:03 PM EST
    Well, you have a point, but your significant other has a brilliant legal mind fighting for the rights of others so why can't you go to Germany and fetch stuff?

    Did Miranda have classified materials on him?  It may have been different of corroborations of Snowden statements or even statements of others the film maker may have collected.  Is that classified?

    I don't know if I buy that Miranda was moving classified information.

    Parent

    We may have to wait for the book (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:27:02 PM EST
    though huh?

    Parent
    Or the documentary (none / 0) (#112)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:26:45 AM EST
    Oh Yeah (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:01:20 AM EST
    By God it seems like some powers are working double time to discourage books or documentaries though.

    Do they think that their doings will be a secret forever?  That is foolish, few ongoing things remain secret for long.

    I get the impression though that some leaders have come to believe that you can get us all used to having no privacy and the abuses that come from that.  That is why Sunstein keeps coming to mind for me.  Some of the things I have read about him, he is all about boiling frogs.  No authentic true North, just kind of what you can get away with and how to go about that, but it is all for the greater good you see.

    Listening to the President talk about our losing our rights, it sounds to me like he is just waiting for all of us to get used to it.

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:37:31 AM EST
    I get the impression though that some leaders have come to believe that you can get us all used to having no privacy and the abuses that come from that.
    If they just explained it better
    ..."I am comfortable that the program currently is not being abused," Obama said. "I am comfortable that if the American people examined exactly what was taking place, how it was being used, what the safeguards were, that they would say, 'You know what? These folks are following the law.'"
    As if "these folks" were just a couple of guys in an office down the hall.

    Parent
    He labeled it an "inconvenience" (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:46:29 AM EST
    in his last press conference. The government illegally spying on its own citizens -- an "inconvenience" that he want us to "feel more comfortable" about.

    Parent
    Which makes you wonder about this: (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:10:49 PM EST
    From FDL

    While in the midst of a scandal over illegal spying programs, the Obama Administration is attempting to legalize warrantless cellphone searches. The administration has written a formal petition to the Supreme Court in favor of allowing law enforcement to search a suspect's cell phone without a warrant. The administration wants a cell phone to be considered fair game and offered no protections.

       In 2007, the police arrested a Massachusetts man who appeared to be selling crack cocaine from his car. The cops seized his cellphone and noticed that it was receiving calls from "My House." They opened the phone to determine the number for "My House." That led them to the man's home, where the police found drugs, cash and guns. The defendant was convicted, but on appeal he argued that accessing the information on his cellphone without a warrant violated his Fourth Amendment rights.

        Earlier this year, the First Circuit Court of Appeals accepted the man's argument, ruling that the police should have gotten a warrant before accessing any information on the man's phone.

        The Obama Administration disagrees. In a petition filed earlier this month asking the Supreme Court to hear the case, the government argues that the First Circuit's ruling conflicts with the rulings of several other appeals courts, as well as with earlier Supreme Court cases. Those earlier cases have given the police broad discretion to search possessions on the person of an arrested suspect, including notebooks, calendars and pagers. The government contends that a cellphone is no different than any other object a suspect might be carrying.

    Yeah, that whole privacy thing is just so antiquated, isn't it?  'Cause, you know, if you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to be afraid of, right?

    Yeesh.

    Parent

    Funny, I just posted that on a dead thread (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:22:08 PM EST
    from Friday.

    He's going after everything now. He's doubling down. I have no idea where this ends up, but once congress comes back into session next month, Obama may find  his presidency to be the number one issue. Left and right are congealing over this.

    Parent

    I hadn't looked at it that way (none / 0) (#135)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:59:52 PM EST
    He's doubling down.
    But yes. And I have to admit, I'm a bit worried about what Congress will actually do. Or rather, what I fear they will fail to do. Two things keep coming to mind:

    1. All that data collection has surely picked up some secrets that members of Congress don't want exposed and gives lack-of-privacy advocates leverage, and
    2. Last time, House leadership madly whipped Congress to defeat the Amash amendment. Which may or may not be related to number 1.

    Jeebus, I hate, hate suspecting everything and everyone. It's exhausting.

    Parent
    You nailed this one: (none / 0) (#137)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:42:24 PM EST
    All that data collection has surely picked up some secrets that members of Congress don't want exposed and gives lack-of-privacy advocates leverage

    And it's been going on since Bush/Cheney. Obama most certainly uses the same thuggish tactics, he just wraps it up in a prettier bow.

    Parent

    Diarist at DailyKos dharmafarmer (none / 0) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:08:40 PM EST
    Has a hella diary up too here

    I am out all week, won't even be able to dig into the big items in it.  Crazy stuff though

    Parent

    Do you really think that Miranda (none / 0) (#101)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:32:19 PM EST
    would have been released if he was carrying classified information?

    Parent
    Yes. Otherwise Greenwalk and Poiras (none / 0) (#102)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:37:31 PM EST
    could have used their encripted e-mail.

    Parent
    Confused by your comment (none / 0) (#103)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:42:21 PM EST
    Let me try and make my question clearer.

    Why would the UK release Miranda if he was carrying classified information? I would think that they would have charged him with something if he had classified information on his person.

    Parent

    I think he had already delivered it to Poiras. (none / 0) (#104)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:51:08 PM EST
    [I do speculate is his name would generate as many hits were it not "Miranda." ]

    Parent
    So you think it was a delivery? (none / 0) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:53:40 PM EST
    Any specific reason why you think that might be what took place?

    Was it a direct flight to Germany?  Or did they miss him going to?  If they missed him going, all this spying on all of us is distracting them too much :)

    Parent

    I have not the slightest inside info. (none / 0) (#108)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:23:25 AM EST
    If Glenn sent me out the door (none / 0) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:30:47 AM EST
    With classified documents.....well, theirs is a greater love than the one I have :)

    Parent
    Exactly. (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:35:23 AM EST
    [And I have a healthy skepticism as to whether Mr. Miranda helps Mr. Greenwald with writing Greenwald's copy.]

    Parent
    My suspicion (none / 0) (#106)
    by Mikado Cat on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:53:39 PM EST
    Was they held him the max 9 hours while digging away trying to find grounds to arrest him, and failed. One of the things possible if you have a huge number of computers is to make a brute force attack at decrypting information.

    Parent
    That doesn't make sense to me (none / 0) (#111)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:23:19 AM EST
    Snowden has already provided his materials to the Guardian and to Laura Poitras. Why would Miranda need to courier classified information. I'm inclined to think it was research and analysis, and possibly bits of the documentary she has been working on.

    Parent
    The Guardian's editor, Alan Rusbridger, (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:48:03 AM EST
    has characterized what Miranda was carrying as "journalistic material."

    I think it's important to note that Miranda was taking this material back to Glenn in Brazil; he was not there to deliver anything to The Guardian or anyone else.

    It was clear to me, after reading the NYT article on Laura Poitras and what she has been subjected to, that transmitting materials between Poitras and Greenwald was going to be done in other than technological ways, much as Poitras described in that article.

    The question Rusbridger raises is, why would journalists feel comfortable transiting through Britain if this is the kind of treatment they could be subjected to?

    Parent

    In the mode of (none / 0) (#147)
    by Mikado Cat on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:37:40 PM EST
    suspect everyone;

    They could have sent Miranda through the UK with the hope he would be detained and then raise a stink.

    Miranda might have been carrying information they had no reason to think would cause him to be detained.

    That was the cheapest flight.

    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#114)
    by Mikado Cat on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:29:44 AM EST
    Snowden didn't pass on everything?

    What I read was that Miranda made an exchange of information, from GG to Piortis (sorry on spelling) and vice versa, but not the nature of what it was. Could be raw data, could be analysis of what the juicy bits are.

    Parent

    Guardian paid for flights (3.50 / 2) (#75)
    by SuzieTampa on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:15:41 PM EST
    The initial Guardian stories didn't mention that they had paid for Miranda's flights, nor did they note that he often assists GG in his writing. That left the impression that Britain was simply harassing Miranda because of who his partner was. Being a courier is different.

    Whether or not you think it was illegal, unjustified and bad PR, Britain does have an interest in stopping the spread of classified information that might aid its enemies, and it is possible that Miranda might have been carrying information from Snowden.

    In case some of you don't know ... In public, journalists generally don't say that a person or an institution will regret taking some sort of action, or express their fury at an individual or institution, lest it look like they have malice.  

    Parent

    Oh brother (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:28:51 PM EST
    There she goes again.

    Parent
    It's true. See "New York Times (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:59:03 PM EST
    v.  Sullivan."

    Parent
    She can't have it both ways (none / 0) (#84)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:45:48 PM EST
    The detention was wrong if Miranda is considered a private citizen. The detention was also wrong if Miranda is an agent of sorts of the Guardian. But I'll take your point.

    Parent
    Irony (2.67 / 6) (#86)
    by SuzieTampa on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:05:14 PM EST
    You trust GG to tell you the truth when he proclaims his anger and desire for revenge, but if I analyze his writing, it's not worth considering because I've said I dislike him?

    It's hard to take FOI advocates seriously when you, Anne and others try to silence critics with condescending remarks and low ratings.

    I have a bachelor of journalism degree from the University of Missouri, my master's from the U of South Florida and 18 years at large metropolitan newspapers. Once I was dragged into federal court to reveal a source, and I didn't. I can't count how many articles I've written using information that has been leaked to me. After I became disabled, I guest blogged for four years.
    I try very hard not to state facts that I haven't double-checked. I don't do personal attacks unless someone else starts it.

    I understand that MO Blue works for the Guardian. Are there other commenters on this blog who are longtime journalists?

    On other sites, I avoid arguments with people whose only answer is a personal attack. But I had hoped TL might be different.

    Parent

    Dear gawd (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:03:27 PM EST
    How long have I worked for the Guardian? I would like to know so I can calculate how much they owe me in back pay. I sure hope that the Guardian sends me my back pay soon. I could use some extra money. :o)

    I not sure just when this site went from Talk Left to Let's Make Sh!t Up.

    Why do you think people will trust anything you say when you go out of your way to make things up? This is at least the second time you have made things up about me. I truly wish you would stop. You are making a complete a$$ out of yourself.

    Parent

    Previously (none / 0) (#115)
    by SuzieTampa on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:39:50 AM EST
    People mentioned that you worked for the Guardian. I assumed that was true.

    Parent
    I think you are definitely confused (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:10:08 AM EST
    I have been a very regular reader of this blog since 2007 and I have never seen anyone claim that I worked for the Guardian even in jest. Would love to see some confirmation of your claim.

     

    Parent

    MO, I guess I was confused (none / 0) (#143)
    by SuzieTampa on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 04:53:06 PM EST
    but it was an honest mistake. Although I read in 2008, I'm new to commenting, and I do forget sometimes who is a lawyer, who hates whom, etc.

    Parent
    Unless you know something about me (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:12:18 PM EST
    is a well documented fact, I would prefer that you not name me in your posts.

    Parent
    Just because you have a (5.00 / 4) (#122)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 10:06:50 AM EST
    journalism degree and experience in the field does not mean you are a model of objectivity.  On more than one occasion, you have reacted to Greenwald quotes and links and information by taking us all way, way back in his history to demonstrate why you hold him in utter contempt - and rarely, if ever, do you address the substance of what he is saying about whatever the issue under discussion is at the time.

    You pointed us to some of your writing on the subject - I suppose as a way of establishing your bona fides on all-things-Greenwald - but rather than give weight and credibility to your opinions, it marked you as someone who had zero objectivity on anything that had Greenwald's name attached to it.

    It's clear that your anti-Greenwald campaign has not gotten any traction here, and it's doubtful it ever will.  I suspect this has a lot to do with the fact that there are so few in the media providing meaningful pushback against government on the issues of constitutional and human rights.

    No one has tried to "silence" you; pointing out that just the mention of Greenwald's name is enough to send you into your file of grievances and the thread off-course is not the same thing.

    No one did this to you, Suzie - you did this to yourself.  Your intentions may have been good, but you need to stop blaming others for not embracing your anti-Greenwald views.


    Parent

    Don't we all do this around here? (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 10:25:05 AM EST
    ..rarely, if ever,do you address the substance of what he is saying about whatever the issue under discussion is at the time.

    If some information is posted from a source that is not favored by the masses here, the point is in, mnay cases, not really addressed, except to say, "Well, that came from X, so it can't really be trusted so, blah, blah, blah."

    Parent

    Since this is Talk LEFT, there's never (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:21:13 PM EST
    going to be a lot of "information" provided from right-wing, ultra-conservative, Tea Party sources, unless it's to highlight the latest nonsense they're pushing.

    There are any number of political pundits and media-types from across the political spectrum whom I don't find to be credible, for the most part based on what they are saying at any given moment.  I don't, for example,  have to look at Michele Malkin's body of work to deem her not worth paying attention to - I can guarantee you she is saying something stupid, crazy or some kind of "ist" at this very moment that earns her that designation.  

    And there are plenty of media-types more in the center or whom others deem "progressive" who may not be crazy, but they are sloppy and disingenuous and more concerned with maintaining their exclusive access to the halls of power than they are in challenging that power.  I don't hold them in much regard, either.

    So, sure - I reject, sometimes out of hand, even the more sensible-sounding comments of people like Ron Paul or Ted Cruz because I know it's window dressing - it doesn't mean anything when considered with all their other positions.  It's the same reason why I don't wear a watch that's only right twice a day - because the rest of the day, it's always wrong.

    I've never claimed that Glenn Greenwald cannot be wrong, or that he never makes mistakes.  He can be stubborn to the point of mulishness if he thinks he's right, sometimes long after the argument has descended into sand-throwing.  He's human, after all.  

    I learn things when I read his columns.  He sends me to other sources, which can lead me to even more sources, so I can round out my knowledge and work on my own opinions about what's going on in the world.  He's not afraid of power, he doesn't court it, or kiss it's a$$, and he pushes for answers.  I imagine sometimes what the state of affairs would be if we had a media as willing to push and confront as he and a very few others are.  

    If Suzie wants to think of Glenn the way I think of Malkin and Coulter and Limbaugh, she's welcome to do so - but she shouldn't expect there will be too many people open to the notion that he is the left's equivalent to their right-wing insanity.
     

    Parent

    And what is Suzie's source again? (none / 0) (#129)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:23:15 AM EST
    The X that can't really be trusted? I think you have your situations confused. While you have a point, it doesn't apply to this situation.

    Parent
    I believe (none / 0) (#138)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:13:47 PM EST
    She has cited many instances in the past where GG was called out (correctly).

    Parent
    And that has what (none / 0) (#139)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:41:34 PM EST
    to do with her most recent diatribe? Seriously.


    Parent
    Pointing out (none / 0) (#141)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:22:14 PM EST
    Rather successfully, I might add, that people here who have a bias against anything she says should be discounted because they don't like her point of view.

    Parent
    Not really (none / 0) (#142)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:42:43 PM EST
    Talk about missing the point (that would be you). Although I'm glad you feel you were successful. That must make you happy. And a happy jb, is a less shrill jb.

    Pointing out that she is bat-sh!t crazy when it comes to the subject of Greenwald just means that she's bat-sh!t crazy when it comes to the subject of Greenwald. And it means that it's fair to read her comments about Greenwald in that context.

    Other topics can stand on their own.

    And before you go down the wrong side of this comment I will stipulate that GG is not perfect and has some less than stellar moments. Even bad ones. That doesn't diminish his reporting on this in any way. His reporting has been stellar. As much as Suzie would like for it not to be.

    Parent

    I don't believe in objectivity (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by SuzieTampa on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 05:05:52 PM EST
    I don't think humans are capable of putting aside their perspective and background. The best we can do is to try to be fair. I have previously said that I dislike GG, but I still attempt to make valid arguments.  

    I didn't hijack this thread; my comments related directly to the post. It would be great if everyone embraced my views and I was made Queen of the Universe. I don't expect that to happen, however, but I do wish people could discuss something without personal attacks. Maybe that wish is just as ridiculous.

    Parent

    So That Makes it OK... (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 10:18:35 AM EST
    ...to stop a journalist's courier using a terrorism law, but ask him nothing but questions regarding the NSA.  which I would add is an agency of a country he was not detained in.

    If I were you, I would call the UofM and demand a refund, every cent.  Because apparently you know more than every working journalist for every major news media outlet that's covered this story.

    Parent

    Reply to Scott, Anne & SJ (none / 0) (#145)
    by SuzieTampa on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:04:02 PM EST
    To limit my comments ... Scott, I didn't say it was OK to stop Miranda. I haven't made up my mind on that yet. The points I was trying to make were:

    1. GG and the Guardian withheld information at first, suggesting that Miranda was "only" GG's partner. Because first impressions matter a lot, outrage was ginned up before we knew that he was serving as a courier. I promise journalists are much more outraged if their partners are stopped for no good reason.

    2. Again, I'm not commenting on the legality, morality, etc., of  what the British authorities did. But it was incorrect for the Guardian and GG to give the impression that authorities had no reason to stop Miranda. From their perspective, they could have believed that Miranda was carrying state secrets that might hurt Britain. I'm not saying they were right; I'm countering the meme that they stopped him ONLY to harass GG.  

    My comment on objectivity was directed to Anne. I'm a liberal (for lack of a better description) but I try to check sources so that I don't just repeat the party line on everything. SJ, the NYT wasn't my only source. The Guardian itself came back with more information later. I don't think they had a choice, after the NYT magazine ran a long piece on how they transmitted information.
    Btw, if you don't want to give the NYT the clicks, Cryptome has the NYT follow-up on how Peter Maas got Laura Poitras to open up.

    Why don't you stop attacking me and go back to discussing the issues you consider more important, and I'll stop commenting.

    Parent

    Your comment (none / 0) (#146)
    by sj on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:31:13 PM EST
    supposedly addressed to me makes no sense if you read up the comment chain. But whatever floats your boat.

    As for your being attacked, well... those who dish it out, are so very often incapable of taking it. Thanks, though for the link to Cryptome -- which was the first and only link you have proffered on this thread.


    Parent

    Frank Zappa (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:56:21 PM EST
    was right.

    Parent
    Call any vegetable? (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:45:05 PM EST
    Because the chances are good, that the vegetable will respond to you.

    Parent
    "It's not..." (none / 0) (#94)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:49:33 PM EST
    "...getting any smarter out there..." ;-)

    Parent
    The story wouldn't play the same way (none / 0) (#68)
    by Thorley Winston on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:46:05 PM EST
    Most people when they read this story probably just heard that it was his partner who was detained which enabled Greenwald and his supporters to play this up as some personal vendetta.  If the courier had been someone who was more obviously affiliated with the Guardian and without any sort of personal connection to Greenwald, it probably wouldn't have been newsworthy.  By picking someone with a personal attachment to Greenwald, it's easier to spin this as some sort of "outrage."

    Parent
    Yeah... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 10:20:25 AM EST
    ...because the GG articles haven't had any play in the media, who is he again ?

    Parent
    Alan Rusbridger is the (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:07:14 PM EST
    Editor in Chief of Guardian Newspapers...

    A little over two months ago I was contacted by a very senior government official claiming to represent the views of the prime minister. There followed two meetings in which he demanded the return or destruction of all the material we were working on. The tone was steely, if cordial, but there was an implicit threat that others within government and Whitehall favoured a far more draconian approach.

    The mood toughened just over a month ago, when I received a phone call from the centre of government telling me: "You've had your fun. Now we want the stuff back." There followed further meetings with shadowy Whitehall figures. The demand was the same: hand the Snowden material back or destroy it. I explained that we could not research and report on this subject if we complied with this request. The man from Whitehall looked mystified. "You've had your debate. There's no need to write any more."

    During one of these meetings I asked directly whether the government would move to close down the Guardian's reporting through a legal route - by going to court to force the surrender of the material on which we were working. The official confirmed that, in the absence of handover or destruction, this was indeed the government's intention. Prior restraint, near impossible in the US, was now explicitly and imminently on the table in the UK. But my experience over WikiLeaks - the thumb drive and the first amendment - had already prepared me for this moment. I explained to the man from Whitehall about the nature of international collaborations and the way in which, these days, media organisations could take advantage of the most permissive legal environments. Bluntly, we did not have to do our reporting from London. Already most of the NSA stories were being reported and edited out of New York. And had it occurred to him that Greenwald lived in Brazil?

    The man was unmoved. And so one of the more bizarre moments in the Guardian's long history occurred - with two GCHQ security experts overseeing the destruction of hard drives in the Guardian's basement just to make sure there was nothing in the mangled bits of metal which could possibly be of any interest to passing Chinese agents. "We can call off the black helicopters," joked one as we swept up the remains of a MacBook Pro.

    Whitehall was satisfied, but it felt like a peculiarly pointless piece of symbolism that understood nothing about the digital age. We will continue to do patient, painstaking reporting on the Snowden documents, we just won't do it in London. The seizure of Miranda's laptop, phones, hard drives and camera will similarly have no effect on Greenwald's work.

    more...

    Can't believe I missed that you posted (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:48:42 PM EST
    this - or I wouldn't have duplicated your efforts!

    Pretty chilling stuff, though. Couldn't help wondering if any American newspapers would have stood up to that kind of pressure.

    Parent

    Well, so far (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:58:00 PM EST
    none have, that I'm aware of. Hard to imagine any that would though. WAPO is doing some good reporting lately but they seem to depend on 'access' for their continued existence. Although if they had Snowden's files the balance of power would be drastically changed?

    On the rumor trail, Ian Bremmer of the Eurasia Group tweeted this morning that he thinks the US and UK are working on an indictment of Greenwald, and seems to base that speculation on that he thinks it may have been the reason for taking Miranda's computers from him. But as far as I can glean this is based on nothing but a tweeted thought, and there is no other supporting info I can find on it anywhere, even though Bremmer is probably well-connected enough to know if there is reality behind it.

    Parent

    And just as the Guardian's getting squeezed, (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:33:04 AM EST
    Peter Maas is stepping forward to publish interviews with Poitras and Snowden in the NYT.

    Did Bill Keller suddenly grows some cajones?

    Parent

    And what (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:22:34 PM EST
    about the treatment of Bradley Manning?

    Look how we treated him - before he had even been convicted of anything.

    He was placed in extreme solitary confinement.


    Experts say that while the technically undefined "extreme" versions of solitary confinement are rarely applied, prisoners across the country are often subjected to exaggerated isolation conditions. These are so severely harmful to their mental health, the experts say, that they may spark the violence they were created to prevent while also violating a prisoner's Eighth Amendment right to be spared cruel and unusual punishment.

    After Manning's arrest on May 29, 2010, he was transferred to a Marine brig in Quantico, Virginia, where, during his nine-month stay, he was reportedly held in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day, forced to sleep naked without pillows and sheets on his bed, and restricted from physical recreation or access to television or newspapers even during his one daily hour of freedom from his cell, all under the pretense that the private was a suicide risk.

    This is our Gulag. Our Guantanamo for our own citizens.
    This is what we have become: the mirror image of those we claim to detest.

    David Miranda is lucky he got out without being accidentally shot - or dropped out of his plane on the way home.

    Whap. Oh. (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:46:29 PM EST
    No, Glenn Greenwald didn't `vow vengeance.' He said he was going to do his job.


    • Q: Will the UK's detention of your partner deter your future reporting?

    • A: Absolutely not. If anything, it will do the opposite. It will embolden me: I have many more documents to report on, including ones about the UK, where I'll now focus more. I will be more aggressive, not less, in reporting.

    • Q: What effect do you think they'll be of the UK's detention of your partner?

    • A: When they do things like this, they show the world their real character. It'll backfire. I think they'll come to regret it.

    But other news organizations had already followed Reuters' lead in sticking to the narrative that Greenwald was threatening the British government over the incident. The Huffington Post's headline blared: "Greenwald vows vengeance," while many others hooked on to the alleged  "sorry" comment.
    [...snip...]
    It's probably not surprising that the "sorry" angle took off in the media -- it's an attention-grabber, and it's easy to sensationalize outside the alleged full context.
    [...snip...]
    Greenwald's point seems to have been that he was determined not to be scared off by intimidation. Greenwald and the Guardian have already been publishing documents outlining surveillance programs in Britain, and Greenwald has long declared his intention to continue publishing documents. By doing so, Greenwald isn't taking "vengeance." He's just doing his job.


    When I read that the British (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:13:55 PM EST
    government has been putting extreme pressure on The Guardian, it didn't seem unusual to me that they would end up doing something like what they did to Miranda.

    Alex Rusbridger, the editor of The Guardian:

    A little over two months ago I was contacted by a very senior government official claiming to represent the views of the prime minister. There followed two meetings in which he demanded the return or destruction of all the material we were working on. The tone was steely, if cordial, but there was an implicit threat that others within government and Whitehall favoured a far more draconian approach.

    The mood toughened just over a month ago, when I received a phone call from the centre of government telling me: "You've had your fun. Now we want the stuff back." There followed further meetings with shadowy Whitehall figures. The demand was the same: hand the Snowden material back or destroy it. I explained that we could not research and report on this subject if we complied with this request. The man from Whitehall looked mystified. "You've had your debate. There's no need to write any more."

    During one of these meetings I asked directly whether the government would move to close down the Guardian's reporting through a legal route - by going to court to force the surrender of the material on which we were working. The official confirmed that, in the absence of handover or destruction, this was indeed the government's intention. Prior restraint, near impossible in the US, was now explicitly and imminently on the table in the UK. But my experience over WikiLeaks - the thumb drive and the first amendment - had already prepared me for this moment. I explained to the man from Whitehall about the nature of international collaborations and the way in which, these days, media organisations could take advantage of the most permissive legal environments. Bluntly, we did not have to do our reporting from London. Already most of the NSA stories were being reported and edited out of New York. And had it occurred to him that Greenwald lived in Brazil?

    The man was unmoved. And so one of the more bizarre moments in the Guardian's long history occurred - with two GCHQ security experts overseeing the destruction of hard drives in the Guardian's basement just to make sure there was nothing in the mangled bits of metal which could possibly be of any interest to passing Chinese agents. "We can call off the black helicopters," joked one as we swept up the remains of a MacBook Pro.

    The Guardian's plan?

    We will continue to do patient, painstaking reporting on the Snowden documents, we just won't do it in London. The seizure of Miranda's laptop, phones, hard drives and camera will similarly have no effect on Greenwald's work.


    Parent
    The reality that the world (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:23:31 PM EST
    Itself will enable the truth to be known may only be influenced by bullying and intimidation at this point I guess.  What a sad place we have come to in recent times.  It isn't about what is real or true concerning the surveillance of us all, the new day requires it to be about what people will overlook in plain sight and believe because it is more convenient.  I know history is full of such moments as well, doesn't make the present situations anymore pleasant though.

    Parent
    In what way was this "terror-related?" (none / 0) (#4)
    by Payaso on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 09:00:34 PM EST
    Also, Miranda was not entering or leaving England.  He was passing thru Heathrow Airport.

    Does British law not recognize (none / 0) (#5)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 09:30:51 PM EST
    a spousal privilege, which would negate the applicability of against any law that would otherwise compel a person to answer questions, when the questions are directed against the person's marital partner?

    Do any terrorism laws recognize the (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:56:43 AM EST
    spousal privilege? Given the open disregard for any rights exhibited by those "fighting terrorism" I can't imagine that Great Britain or the U.S. really gives a damn about spousal privilege.

    The overriding principle seems to be "All's fair..."

    Parent

    I was putting two and two together (none / 0) (#12)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:49:41 AM EST
    from details in what I read in TL's post:  (a) that the law on which Britain relies for such interrogations makes answering compulsory (a crime not to answer); and (b) that Miranda was described at least once as Greenwald's "husband" as well as being described elsewhere as his "partner."  (But I now see that the law recently enacted in England to recognize same-sex marriage is not yet effective, so my question may be moot.)

    Parent
    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:57:14 AM EST
    So the parallel would be a country who does not recognize Muslims as humans, would arrest them without any evidence and detain them indefinitely.

    Seems like the "recognizing" bit creates a lot of loopholes.

    Parent

    No, actually (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:01:44 AM EST
    I don't think that's "parallel" at all.  But my point does illustrate yet another reason why a registered domestic partnership is not legally equal to a "marriage."

    Parent
    Gosh (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:30:48 AM EST
    I thought Miranda was recognized as Greenwald's husband in Brazil and elsewhere.

    Glenn Greenwald currently resides in Brazil, where he moved to be with his husband because the U.S. government does not recognize same-sex marriage.

    Brazil recognizes same sex marriages

    Parent

    Which has what, exactly (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:33:49 AM EST
    to do with British law?

    As as starting point, (and I posted this in another thread), Wiki says this:

    While spousal communications in England and Wales are no longer privileged, section 80 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (as amended) gives spouses or civil partners of defendants protection against being compelled by the prosecution to testify, except in limited circumstances.
    A spouse or civil partner of a defendant is almost always considered a competent witness for either side, and may choose to testify for or against their spouse. A defendant may, when relevant, compel their spouse or civil partner to testify on their behalf. The prosecution however, may only compel the testimony of the defendant's spouse or civil partner in cases of domestic abuse or violence or sexual offences towards persons under 16. When the spouse or civil partner is a co-defendant to the charges, they may not be compelled to testify.

    Note that while this gives special recognition to spousal relationships and civil partnerships, the law does not provide for a privilege and it is never possible to exclude evidence solely on the basis that it was a private conversation between a married couple.



    Parent
    Where do you GET this stuff?? (none / 0) (#22)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:17:29 AM EST
    So the parallel would be a country who does not recognize Muslims as humans...
    Stick to art. Logic and analysis are clearly not your strong points.

    Parent
    Guantanamo? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:03:18 PM EST
    Patriot act? Section 7 UK version.

    It does not matter what other countries recognize as established precedent/law, when it comes to using arcane laws to do as you please. Those muslims who were sold to the US to placate some blood letting in the name of Patriotism, is no different from detaining a journalist's husband in the name of patriotism aka fighting the terrrrrrists..  

    Had Miranda not had a famous husband, we may have never heard of him or seen him again. These laws are BS, a blank check to subvert civil liberties at best and rob people of their lives at worst.

    Parent

    That actually makes (none / 0) (#27)
    by sj on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:15:43 PM EST
    a bit of sense. Your original comment not so much. And that is an understatement.

    Parent
    Are Miranda and Greenwald married? (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:58:43 AM EST
    I've been looking at all the articles and have done a Google search, and I can't find a specific reference to their marital status - even The Guardian's article on the detention refers to Miranda as "(t)he partner of the Guardian journalist" who "lives with Glenn Greenwald" not that they are spouses.

    But that aside, I can't help but remember back to the case of Binyam Mohamed - remember him?

    ...a British resident held at the American base, has launched a legal challenge in the High Court in London for documents detailing his treatment to be made public.

    However, two judges ruling on the case said that David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, had advised that releasing the documents could lead to America withdrawing intelligence co-operation.

    This, it was warned, could lead to Britons facing a "very considerable increase in the dangers they face" from terrorism.  

    And I remember him not so much for the facts of his case, but for the threats the US made to end intelligence cooperation with Britain if the documents in question were made public.  

    So, I just don't believe that David Miranda was detained as a result of an independent decision by British authorities - I think it was as a result of pressure from the US, threatening who-knows-what.

    I could be completely wrong on this - who knows?

    Parent

    No, I don't think it could happen here. (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:03:09 AM EST
     President Obama fights for the rights of dissidents: For example, as a result of pressure exerted during a meeting between Mr. Obama and the president of Vietnam last month, a Vietnamese appeals court has overturned one dissident's six-year prison sentence and halved the eight-year term of another in a rare show of leniency.

    The dissidents, aged 21 and 25,  were  convicted of national security crimes for distributing leaflets that were critical of the government.  The judge cited the young ages of the defendants in the decision.

    Parent

    Lol (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:57:53 AM EST
    Kevin Drum IMO states the obvious (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:38:54 AM EST
    This is more than just shocking. It's stupid. Criminally, insanely stupid. I can hardly think of a better way of convincing skeptics that security authorities can't be trusted with the power we've given them.

    British citizens want to know if any government ministers were involved in this. As an American citizen, I'd like to know if any American officials were involved in this. link

    I agree with Kevin that the continued overreach by the U.S. and UK just confirms that these governments cannot be trusted we have given them let alone with the additional powers that they have taken.

    Parent

    Yes it confirms that the government (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:41:35 PM EST
    can't be trusted.  But, it also confirms that the government will not trust its citizens.   This new technological power to burrow into the lives of its citizens was concealed , and there will be no end to their fury at having this new capability revealed--from plans to prosecute the courageous who reveal it to those who dare report it.   The Heathrow episode with Glenn's partner is, apparently, the UK version of  "Miranda" rights that bears the reformed warning: you do not have the right to remain silent, you do not have the right to an attorney.  UK (and US) "we" are not amused.

    Parent
    I think you are correct (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:03:18 AM EST
    Unless there has been updated information, GG said this in a 2011 interview with Out magazine:

    Given Greenwald's intellectual fecundity and argumentative ferocity, being gay may be the least interesting thing about him. But even Greenwald doesn't claim that his sexual orientation doesn't matter. After all, if he were straight he would be living in Manhattan, his home for most of the last 20 years. Instead, he lives in Rio de Janeiro, barred from moving to the United States with his Brazilian boyfriend, David Michael Miranda.

    "Brazil recognizes our relationship for immigration purposes, while the government of my supposedly 'free,' liberty-loving country enacted a law explicitly barring such recognition," says Greenwald, referring to the Defense of Marriage Act with the disdain he typically shows for policies he believes are eroding Americans' freedoms. Greenwald's attacks on the powerful make him a tempting target for reprisals. So it's no surprise that, soon after he started blogging, critics sometimes tried to out him in a game of "gotcha." But what upset Greenwald was the implication that he had been closeted in the first place. "There was nothing to out," he says. "I've been as out as I can be since I was 20."

    Obviously, his reason for not living here was eliminated with the Windsor case this past Court term,and NY recognizes same-sex marriage, but my guess is, he doesn't want to move here and get married for other reasons now.

    Parent

    Glenn to the best of my knowledge (none / 0) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:32:52 AM EST
    continues to refer to David Miranda as his partner. August 18, 2013 article by Glenn:

    Glenn Greenwald: detaining my partner was a failed attempt at intimidation

    At 6:30 am this morning my time - 5:30 am on the East Coast of the US - I received a telephone call from someone who identified himself as a "security official at Heathrow airport." He told me that my partner, David Miranda, had been "detained" at the London airport "under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act of 2000."

    I have never heard Greenwald refer to David as anything other than his partner. Also, FWIW none of the biographical data that I have read on Greenwald shows that he was married at such and such date etc.

    Parent

    I Would Say More Like... (none / 0) (#127)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 10:35:04 AM EST
    ...Stockholm Syndrome of Intelligence Agencies.

    Just because we didn't specifically ask them to do this, it's clear the 'interview' was about the NSA leaks.  

    There is no reasonable explanation, to date, as to why Brittan intelligence would use a terrorism law to interrogate a Brazilian citizen about the NSA unless they are just trying to appease their task masters, or the US ordered it.

    People should not have to fear what country's airspace their flight may travel through, that is simply wrong on so many levels.

    Parent

    No answer on spousal privilege, but (none / 0) (#43)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:01:45 PM EST
    does have the RIPA law, with which authorities, the "proper" authorities, mind you, can compel you to divulge any and all encryption keys necessary to read encrypted files, documents, disks, etc.

    Parent
    spousal privilege question answered (none / 0) (#96)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:54:05 PM EST
    by "jbindc" at #18 above. To my surprise, Britain has abolished the spousal privilege, except as to spouse-incriminating testimony in a criminal case.

    Parent
    Always (none / 0) (#6)
    by koshembos on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 10:30:55 PM EST
    Surprisingly enough, everyone is astonished at UK's behavior here. That's run of the mill. We do it, the UK, France, Russia and most countries behave exactly the same way.

    After all, they are angry at Snowden telling Glenn that they do it. As if we didn't suspect them to start with.

    Good time (none / 0) (#90)
    by Mikado Cat on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:39:15 PM EST
    to watch the movie Hopscotch again.

    VC has (none / 0) (#93)
    by Mikado Cat on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:48:56 PM EST
    an interesting 4th amendment discussion on search and security of your papers

    Cellphones and thumb drives would fall into this category wouldn't they?