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Saturday Open Thread

I'll be back to blogging soon, just not quite yet. Our last open thread is full. Here's a new one, all topics welcome.

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    desertswine (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 01:42:48 PM EST
    this deserves to be reposted

    Look at that picture and imagine the dead 12yo in Cleveland.

    And have a nice day.

    For the record (2.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Redbrow on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 11:06:47 PM EST
    I like the photo. It is a good representation of cops and a reminder that most are good people.

    I only have a problem with your false equivalency,

    I think this is a better contrast/comparison.

    Ferguson protesters make seattle children cry.

    Parent

    False equivalence (3.00 / 2) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:43:52 AM EST

    False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] It would be the antonym of the mathematical concept of material equivalence.

    See?
    What YOU did was a false equivalence.  What I did was to compare two 12yo black kids.

    Parent

    people really don't like to (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by sj on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 10:57:14 PM EST
    have their logical fallacies pointed out. I know I'm chagrined when I'm caught it one. Or would be :)

    I think the most common one is accusing another of ad hominem attacks while engaging in obvious and egregious ad hominem attacks of their own.

     

    Parent

    Oh noooo (3.00 / 2) (#112)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 01:14:22 PM EST
    a 1 from lowbrow.  My day is ruined.

    Parent
    Was this kid (1.00 / 9) (#3)
    by Redbrow on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 02:01:52 PM EST
    Packing a realistic gun? Was this officer responding to a report of an armed teen at a playground point his gun at people?

    It was a tragic mistake but understandable considering 12 year olds and young teens do use real guns to commit real violent crimes.

    Did this kid deserved to be hugged or shot? It happened right around Mike Brown's death but there was no uproar or media hype. I wonder why?

    This was not the 5-feet 8-inch tall, 130-pound teen's first brush with violence. State records state he was a convicted felon arrested twice since age 12 for armed robbery with a gun, once for battery on a public or school employee and once for burglarizing a home.


    Parent
    Is this commenter (4.60 / 10) (#14)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 03:45:37 PM EST
    writing misleading garbage to justify shooting a 12 year old boy? Why, yes he is.

    The teen in your comment is not 12 year old Tamir Rice who the police killed becayse he had a TOY gun.

    The teen you referenced in your comment name was Davion Smith, he was 14 years old.

    Tamir Rice lived in Cleveland. The teen you referenced in your comment did not live in Cleveland. He lived in Orlando, Fl.

    Not surprising that you did not mention that you were referring to someone other than Tamir Rice.

    According to your comment, Tamir Rice should die for the actions of a black teenager who lived 897 miles away.

     

    Parent

    Unbelievable (4.20 / 5) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 05:05:11 PM EST
    really.

    Parent
    Your comment sans link gives (4.33 / 6) (#5)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 02:14:02 PM EST
    rise to the erroneous interpretation the Cleveland victim has a felony record.

    Parent
    Agreed. and (4.43 / 7) (#13)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 03:41:52 PM EST
    the comment cum link fosters a distortion of the case.

    Parent
    For fvcks sake (4.33 / 6) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 02:21:03 PM EST
    it was a 12 yo child.   What is wrong with people.   I'm not going to respond to the idiot who doesn't know how to link.  I spent yesterday doing that.  Life is to short.

    The kid was 12 years old.  Who the fvck cares if he had brushes with the law.  It was a child playing with a toy.  Can't we at the very fvcking least be sorry he is dead?  Can't we as a society even do that?

    Parent

    It is a tragedy that this young boy was killed. (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 02:36:01 PM EST
    Now, in the interests of my deteriorating mental outlook (is it the all-Christmas music KUSC Sat. morning opera show; or is it too much emotion expended on TL; or both????), it is time to practice piano.

    Parent
    Speaking of radio music, (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by fishcamp on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 03:02:52 PM EST
    I was trying to find an update on the World Cup Ski Races, in Aspen, being run right now and tomorrow.  I googled, Aspen Radio stations, and they all came up.  I went to the first, oldest, and best, KSPN, and now I have it loud and clear on my iMac.  Pretty cool, this internet thing.

    Parent
    I heard a wonderful, restrained recording, (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 03:14:42 PM EST
    on KUSC streaming live, of Carl Orff's familiar "Carmina Burana," which is usually performed with great bombast. KUSC now links its playlist to the recording, which is "in the mail."  Really comvenient.  

    Parent
    I looked for the longer version (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 02:43:27 PM EST
    of the surveillance video and couldn't find it.  It's been scrubbed.  But it's still on the MSNBC site it was shown on the Chris Hays show.

    If interested watch the harden criminal playing with the snow moments before he was shot dead

    it's the featured video.

    Parent

    The person who allegedly (4.56 / 9) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 03:54:07 PM EST
    had brushes with the law was not the 12 year old, Tamir Rice. That comment was constructed in such a way as to lead readers to the false conclusion that Tamir had committed the quoted crimes.

    The person who allegedly committed those crimes was named Davion Smith and he lived in Orlando, FL.  


    Parent

    The gun looked realistic to me (2.20 / 5) (#29)
    by McBain on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:07:38 PM EST
    I'd like to know how old the kid looked.  The person who called police, didn't describe him as a child. I believe he called him "guy" or "man". After the shooting, the officer who called it in, described him as 20 years old.

    No matter what, this is a tragedy but it might turn out to be another justifiable homicide.

    Parent

    Your information is not accurate (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:47:02 PM EST
    The 911 caller stated that he was probably a juvenile. He also stated twice that the gun was probably a fake.

    Here is the recording of the 911 call. Listen to the whole thing.

    In the future you might want to make sure that you have complete and accurate information.

    Parent

    You did that so much nicer (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:49:43 PM EST
    than I did.

    Parent
    Mine might have been more (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:57:20 PM EST
    nicer but your comment addressed the issue better than mine did. This IMO needed to be said:

    Why do people who don't know what the fvck they are talking about insist on spreading this stuff?


    Parent
    memo to self (none / 0) (#44)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 08:18:12 PM EST
    when substituting words in a comment remember to recheck the words preceding the change.

    More tactful works well and nicer by itself works as well but

    More nicer is not really more nicer.

    Parent

    I liked it (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 08:25:59 PM EST
    Just another justifiable homicide (4.43 / 7) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:27:26 PM EST
    what a freaking quote.

    Why do people who don't know what the fvck they are talking about insist on spreading this stuff?

    The officers were responding to a 911 call of a "guy with a gun pointing it at people," but the caller also noted that the weapon was "probably fake" and that the suspect was "probably a juvenile."



    Parent
    A few things (2.25 / 4) (#47)
    by McBain on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 08:57:10 PM EST
    That was my first post on Talk Left.  Thanks for the warm welcome.  

    I knew the caller said the gun was probably fake but I didn't know he described him as probably being a juvenile. Thanks for correcting me, however, "probably a juvenile, doesn't necessarily mean a 12 year old kid.

    I take it you've already made up your mind about this shooting? I haven't.

    Parent

    To be honest (3.00 / 2) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:08:20 PM EST
    i felt it was a bit harsh.
    On the other hand, speaking only for me but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, I'm pretty sick of the knee jerk condemnation of every police victim.  

    On the subject, when you say "another justifiable homicide".  Which other justifiable homicides are you referring to.  Exactly.
    Michael Brown?  Trayvon Martin?  John Crawford?  JFK?

    Parent

    I think we're ok (3.00 / 1) (#56)
    by McBain on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:52:19 PM EST
    We don't have to be friends or agree on anything but I really hope we don't get into silly blog post wars.  On the other hand, I love a good debate. I've been a TL lurker for a while and usually find this site to have a good mix of topics.

    I was mostly referring to the Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin cases.  I thought both of those involved a justified use of deadly force even though I'm not a gun person and I don't believe in the death penalty.  

    Parent

    Not a gun person and against the death penalty (3.00 / 2) (#70)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:17:43 AM EST
    sounds like a good start.  

    We argue here.   That's what we do.    Don't take it personally and try not to get personal and you will have no problems with the landlord.  She does not police thought.

    I understand why a reasonable person might think that of Brown.  I do not. We disagree on Trayvon.  I don't understand how anyone could think Tamir Rice or John Crawford "deserved" anything but to be treated like the citizens they were.

    Welcome.

    Parent

    I don't think we have enough information (1.00 / 1) (#94)
    by McBain on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:33:06 AM EST
    on Tamir Rice yet.  I certainly haven't reached a conclusion yet.  If he was pointing his realistic looking gun at an officer after he told him to stop doing that, the shooting might be justified.

    Parent
    Sometimes the use of deadly force... (none / 0) (#156)
    by unitron on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 05:23:50 AM EST
    ...is legally justified even though the victim did not deserve to be killed or injured.

    The purpose of the justifiable use of deadly force is not to cause death, it is to neutralize a perceived threat.

    (yes, that can easily result in causing a death, and likely often does, but the law doesn't say you get to kill someone for the sake of killing them, it says you get to neutralize a threat, even if it causes that death)

    A lot hinges on whether the perception of a threat passes the reasonableness test.

    It's not always a zero sum game where one party has to be in the wrong for the other party to be in the right.

    I am not specifically referring to any particular cases here.

    Parent

    Oops (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:28:24 PM EST
    Learn to use the google (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:31:51 PM EST
    I had seen some of those pics (none / 0) (#49)
    by McBain on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:07:25 PM EST
    but I don't know how recent they are.  Do you?  I remember, in the Zimmerman case,  most of the pics of Trayvon Martin were from his younger days.

    What I really want to know is how he appeared to the officer who shot him. Unfortunately, the footage I've seen is from a grainy long shot and not much help.

    Parent

    You do know that the so called (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 10:22:51 PM EST
    facebook page of the shirtless, muscular 6'2" teen flipping the bird and the tattooed, 6'2", 175 lb. man were not actual pictures of Trayvon Martin. They were lies that were distributed by conservative (site rules prevent correct word usage) venues to try Martin in the court of public opinion by using false information.

    The medical examiner's report on the death of Trayvon Martin indicated that the deceased was actually 5'11" and weighed 158 lbs.

    The family photo taken 9 days before he was shot shows a young looking, slender 17 year old teen. He is the young man at the far right in the photo.  
     

    Parent

    I remember there being more lies and misleading (2.00 / 1) (#61)
    by McBain on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 10:59:28 PM EST
    statements about George Zimmerman than of Trayvon Martin. I was aware of the fake TM pics. I was also aware of the ones that made him look 12-14 years old.  Those young pics actually influenced one of the witnesses who testified against GZ.

    TM looked a lot taller than 5'11" on the 7/11 video. I've heard the human body shrinks a little bit after death because of the loss of fluid. He looked more like 6'2" to me but that didn't really matter.  

    Parent

    Ooh dear gawd (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 11:17:34 PM EST
    He was 16 in the picture that you are referencing.

    He was 5'11" tall. The fact that you are not a good judge of a person's height does not make someone who is 5'11", 6'2."

    I can see I am wasting my time providing you with facts. I'm done.

    Parent

    How would you know which picture I was referencing (none / 0) (#97)
    by McBain on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:45:35 AM EST
    I didn't provide any links.  There were several pics that gave the impression he was younger than 17.

    I think TM's body shrank a bit after he died and lost fluid. In the 7/11 video TM towered over the clerk who testified he was 5'10".  

    The bigger point I'd like to make is how people can be mislead by carefully selected photos.  We definitely saw that in the TM shooting. Not as much in the Michael Brown shooting.  I'm not sure about the the Tamir Rice pics yet.  

    Parent

    The couple of pics that were repeated (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:10:45 PM EST
    on that page are recent.  He looked like a 12 year old.  

    Parent
    The victim's father stated his son was big (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:26:56 PM EST
    for his age. (which, in itself, is meaningless, of course.)

    Parent
    Exactly how big was he? (none / 0) (#59)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 10:26:06 PM EST
    What was his height and his weight?

    Parent
    Accordking to the Cleveland (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:58:24 AM EST
    Plain Dealer, the office of the medical examiner has not released that information.

    Parent
    He dos not look (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:50:42 AM EST
    particularly big in the video.  At least to me.  

    One thing that not often mentioned about this that bothers me the most I think is that the police made no attempt to check on him or help him.  He lay on the ground until the EMTs arrived.

    That's messed up. That's really messed up.  According to the cops in my family, who granted police mostly white people, that's not how it's supposed to work.

    Parent

    The city of Cleveland's website isn't (none / 0) (#85)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:49:51 AM EST
    opening for me. I tried to check P.D. officer-involved shooting policy. It is likely the officers here had discretion to administer first aid until the EMTs arrived. I would have thought the more experienced officer (who I gather did not fire his weapon)  would have done so.

    Parent
    COP didn't know why they didn't use training (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 10:50:20 AM EST
    The news station found that Cleveland police officers take the American Red Cross HeartSaver course, which teaches them how to respond to "injury emergencies." "In other words," said reporter Sarah Buduson, "officers should know the basics about treating gunshot wounds." Tomba said he didn't know why Loehmann and Garmback didn't bother to use their training in this case. {http://tinyurl.com/pnbzup2}


    Parent
    Correction (none / 0) (#90)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:13:00 AM EST
    Tomba  is Deputy Chief and not Chief of
    Police

    Parent
    Tomba: (none / 0) (#92)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:19:20 AM EST
    Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said a detective and FBI agent who were in the area responded to the call for help and began giving medical help to Rice three minutes and 49 seconds after he was shot by rookie Cleveland

    I doubt he used the word "bother," which is not in quotes.

    The investigation may reveal what rhe more experienced officer's actions were following the shooting and b/4 the law enforcement offiicers arrived who arrived minutes later and gave medical aid to the victim.  

    Parent

    Howdy, that is very good, (none / 0) (#158)
    by fishcamp on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 06:53:16 AM EST
    did you put that together in your spare time?  If so, well done.

    Parent
    Yes, thanks (none / 0) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 08:13:23 AM EST
    highly refined search that was

    Parent
    This photo and the 'back story' of this kid (none / 0) (#65)
    by ZtoA on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 11:42:49 PM EST
    has been all over PDX and my facebook in the last couple of days. This kid is amazing. His life and story and moms are amazing. Brought tears to my eyes several times. I actually feel proud that he is living in the same city that I am - so we are neighbors.

    I could not physically get out to that demonstration but I regret my physical limitations. I don't want to contact him or his moms directly because that might be creepy, but I am so with them in spirit. Thanks for posting this!! (artists can understand each other too.)

    Parent

    Sad but hopeful news from (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 05:14:17 PM EST
    my stricken friend.  They have not really been able to tell if she was aware. But starting yesterday she has been having bouts of crying. Writing this makes me feel sick but they say it may actually be a good sign.  A sign she is becoming aware.
    Have her on your thought if you can.  She is a genuinely good person.
     

    I'll be thinking of her. (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Angel on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 05:40:23 PM EST
    Her name is Casey (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 05:50:05 PM EST
    same as me

    Parent
    Here's a very recent (none / 0) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 08:09:05 PM EST
    Beautiful photos (5.00 / 7) (#21)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 05:43:52 PM EST
    to bring a smile to your face.

    Precious!! (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Angel on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 05:50:22 PM EST
    That bonobo... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by desertswine on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 06:09:31 PM EST
    is too much!

    Parent
    isn't it though (none / 0) (#28)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 06:54:27 PM EST
    It is one of my favorites.

    Just in case you didn't get enough cuteness the photographer added this to the bottom of the original link.

    To see more newborn and young animals (which we couldn't all fit in here), visit 500px.


    Parent
    Musically (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 06:29:24 PM EST
    this is interesting
    But my favorite part is the two sleeping dogs

    Parent
    Ducks 40, Beavers 10 at the end of the third (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by caseyOR on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:52:54 PM EST
    quarter.

    The Ducks face Arizona next Saturday for the Pac 12 championship.

    Auburn is currently leading Alabama by 2 points. Hang on, Auburn. Defeat 'Bama. Keep the SEC out of the national championship play-offs.

    GO, DUCKS!!

    I had never known of the (none / 0) (#66)
    by ZtoA on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 11:56:17 PM EST
    under story of the Ducks vs Beavers before my power went out a couple of weeks ago and I spend hours on my cell phone with an artist friend and she told me all about the history of the Ducks. I am now a Duck fan. Ducks and Beavers are almost code words for vast differences in cultural thinkings and the histories of these schools and their demographics,  and these are also played out on the football fields and 'games'.

    I was so rooting for the Ducks tonite.  As soon as the game ended my friend and I talked and cheered. Since I am a total newbie at sports, this was a very new experience for me. But I was so very drawn into the 'dialog'. Go Ducks!!

    Parent

    I suppose you have observed you now (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:41:54 AM EST
    a never-fail topic to discuss w/those of your friends who are sports-savvy. This happened to me during my period of obsession w/skiing and same baseball. Now not so much.

    Parent
    A friend of mine posted a link to (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 10:37:32 PM EST
    one of the most powerful essays I've read in a long time, one that really made me feel and think and hurt inside for what we're doing to people.

    Just read it.

    It more or less encapsulates why someone's earlier reference to "just another justifiable homicide" was so disturbing and hurtful.

    Kiese should have stayed down in Jackson MS (1.38 / 8) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:18:21 AM EST
    He could have actually done some things.

    Instead it appears, to me, that he went to Vassar and engages in complaining.

    Not that is bad, mind you, it is what we do best around here. But neither he or we will make any real impact.

    Parent

    Powerful stuff (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:39:17 AM EST
    everyone should read this.  

    Parent
    Memorial film for my friend's son (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Dadler on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 10:13:19 AM EST
    Talk about genocide.... (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by lentinel on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:46:37 PM EST
    WASHINGTON -- After more than two decades trying but failing to forge a global pact to halt climate change, United Nations negotiators gathering in South America this week are expressing a new optimism that they may finally achieve the elusive deal.

    But underlying that optimism is a grim reality: No matter the outcome of the talks, experts caution, it probably will not be enough to stave off the increasingly significant, near-term impact of global warming.

    But while scientists and climate-policy experts welcome the new momentum ahead of the Lima talks, they warn that it now may be impossible to prevent the temperature of the planet's atmosphere from rising by 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit. According to a large body of scientific research, that is the tipping point at which the world will be locked into a near-term future of drought, food and water shortages, melting ice sheets, shrinking glaciers, rising sea levels and widespread flooding -- events that could harm the world's population and economy.

    -

    And we thought ISIS was bad...

    Yup (none / 0) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 01:09:46 PM EST
    even if everyone agreed there was an emergency it's probably to late.  And we are not even close to that.  
    Sadly it's times like this when I'm glad I have no children.  The worst stuff won't come for a few more years.  Till people like PPJ are dead.  Which is afaiac is really the most unfair part of the whole deal.  

    Parent
    I remember (none / 0) (#119)
    by lentinel on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 03:49:43 PM EST
    that shortly after he was elected, Obama went to the Copenhagen conference - the subject of which was climate change.

    I happened to be in Europe when that was happening.
    There was electricity in the air about this new president.
    There was hope and even the expectation that he would lead a charge in the direction of cutting emissions from fossil fuels and in the direction of bold new moves towards renewable energy sources.

    It was stated then that the world stood at the tipping point. Act, or watch the ensuing disaster that would be visited on future generations.

    They didn't act.
    Obama didn't lead.
    He came, and spoke, and left.

    The bubble burst.
    You could feel all the air of hope being sucked out of the people.

    So, here we are.

    Hopefully Obama will get somewhere with China, and other nations might be moved to do something... but scientists are saying that even if so, things will not be implemented for another six years - and it is already too late to avoid famines and floods.

    There used to be a staple of the science fiction movies of the golden age of Sci-Fi. It was that what finally would unite the peoples of Earth was an attack from another world.

    But, to paraphrase Pogo again, the enemy from the other world is us. And we are doing next to nothing about it.

    In fact, it looks like we're about to OK the pipeline.

    The pipeline to oblivion.

    Parent

    Another "give us power and money" screed (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 03:51:39 PM EST
    from the hoaxers who have never hit forecast, and who admit it hasn't happened.

    I would like to see the climate change happen, so the science could be proved right, regardless of the consequences.

    From  what Dr Phil Jones thought was a private email.

    Parent

    Just curious, (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by lentinel on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 04:52:09 PM EST
    because, frankly, what you write regarding global warming seems a little nutty...

    How do you explain the melting of the glaciers.
    Are the photos faked?
    Are the people witnessing this all lying?

    Do you think there is a conspiracy among a group of scientists to mislead us? If so, what is their motivation - the people you call "hoaxers" - in your opinion?
    Do they stand to make a lot of money if we move away from filthy fuels?
    Or do you think that they are just a bunch of boneheads in an academic bubble?

    Believe me. I would like to believe that everything is just fine... and this hottest year on record... and the unusual flooding in different parts of the globe, and so on - I would like to be believe that this is just one of those things. The natural order of things - and that I can just go on with my air conditioning and electric heat and gas guzzler without any concern for adverse consequences for me or my family and its descendants.

    So - lay the facts out as you see them.
    Why are the glaciers melting?
    Or are you just gonna tell me that they're not really melting. Just taking a breather.

    Parent

    For (none / 0) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 07:09:24 PM EST
    people like Jim it's all about ooga booga Agenda 21 which is going to cause the black helicopters to fly in from the UN any day now and take him and other science deniers away.

    That or the fact that the GOP is so heavily dependent on funds from the oil industry that they don't care what happens to the environment because they're going to lose all their funding and won't be viable anyway so they're willing to drag everybody else in the country down with them.

    Parent

    Simpler than tha GA (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:49:10 PM EST
    if someone is arguing with him someone is paying attention to him.

    Parent
    Heh (1.00 / 1) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:10:37 PM EST
    As one adult to another, don't you think the casual reader can see that neither of you are debating the issue

    So let's quit with the snark. If you can debate,let's do it.

    Parent

    See what I mean? (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:20:55 PM EST
    Another question for you, Jim... (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:39:06 AM EST
    If someone is trying to sell me something, whether it be a product or an idea, I usually ask myself what's in it for them for me to believe what they are selling me.

    This is a variation of the concept of "follow the money".

    Briefly, there is a ton of money to be made by people denying that the burning of fossil fuels contributes to the acceleration of global warming.

    There is, on the other hand, little to be made by NASA or the USGS in documenting the melting of glaciers and anomalies in weather conditions.

    To sum up: The incentive to deny is great. Monetarily and politically. The incentive to make people aware of the effects of human behavior on conditions on this planet are comparatively nil - monetarily or politically.

    So we have two sets of declarations. The one you present which is that global warming just happens and has always happened and we can and should do nothing about it.

    The other is that man's unbridled use of fossil fuels is accelerating the process in a major and probably irreversible manner.

    I have to examine the motives of the messengers if I am to make a decision about which declaration has merit.

    What say ye?

    Parent

    A couple of things have been pointed out (5.00 / 3) (#170)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:47:32 AM EST
    in this tread that I have always wondered about.  For example ppj said something about people saying this to get money or grants or whatever.
    Does any sane person actually believe that, if money was the point, they could get ten times as much from the fossil fuel industries to reach the opposite conclusion?
    Really?
    The other is the world people like him are leaving their heirs.
    I don't even have heirs and I hate what is happening.  If I had them I would be absolutely terrified.   If I had them I would have a very hard time seeng the logic in not at the very least accepting the possibility that 97% of the science community are on to something.   And the down side being we would be moving to a greener economy.

    It's a funny workd.

    Parent

    Btw (5.00 / 3) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:50:36 AM EST
    I have been watching the weather channel this morning because we are under a winter weather advisory.  I just heard that nov shattered records for both heat AND  cold.

    Parent
    The idea that advocating for Climate change (none / 0) (#177)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:10:52 AM EST
    is some sort of money-maker for the scientists involved doesn't make sense.

    But, put it on Fox News, and it becomes the gospel truth, even for social libruls.

    Parent

    Since you can do nothing but (none / 0) (#185)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:33:06 AM EST
    write about Fox news I see no reason to engage your further.

    Parent
    Could they?? (none / 0) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:39:51 AM EST
     
    For example ppj said something about people saying this to get money or grants or whatever.
    Does any sane person actually believe that, if money was the point, they could get ten times as much from the fossil fuel industries to reach the opposite conclusion?

    That is one of funniest comments you have made.

    In the meantime:

    New estimates show the federal government will spend nearly twice as much fighting global warming this year than on U.S. border security.

    The White House reported to House Republicans that there are 18 federal agencies engaged in global warming activities in 2013, funding a wide range of programs, including scientific research, international climate assistance, incentivizing renewable energy technology and subsidies to renewable energy producers. Global warming spending is estimated to cost $22.2 billion this year, and $21.4 billion next year.

    Link

    And that doesn't include the UN and other countries.

    Now, exactly who is giving money to who?????

    Parent

    Could they?? (none / 0) (#188)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:39:52 AM EST
     
    For example ppj said something about people saying this to get money or grants or whatever.
    Does any sane person actually believe that, if money was the point, they could get ten times as much from the fossil fuel industries to reach the opposite conclusion?

    That is one of funniest comments you have made.

    In the meantime:

    New estimates show the federal government will spend nearly twice as much fighting global warming this year than on U.S. border security.

    The White House reported to House Republicans that there are 18 federal agencies engaged in global warming activities in 2013, funding a wide range of programs, including scientific research, international climate assistance, incentivizing renewable energy technology and subsidies to renewable energy producers. Global warming spending is estimated to cost $22.2 billion this year, and $21.4 billion next year.

    Link

    And that doesn't include the UN and other countries.

    Now, exactly who is giving money to who?????

    Parent

    lentinel... I am unsure (none / 0) (#195)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:29:18 AM EST
    if you actually read my lengthy comments that I linked to because you don't address them directly and because they address some of your questions/comments. But I will respond in good faith.

    On the subject of money, see my reply to Howdy. It details that this year the feds are spending some $21 billion. That doesn't include the UN or other countries.

    On the private side I provided a link showing that Michael Mann is receiving some $10,000 for speaking. A few of those and the Xmas bills are taken care of. And the money Al Gore has made is well documented.

    As for what "scientists" and others will do to obtain funding I refer you to Washington DC and all the lobbyists. On a more personal note, I was once a Product Manager for some product lines manufactured by a very large corporation. One of the first things I learned was that people will lie and lie again to obtain funding for their pet projects. It is the nature of the beast. This was at the beginning of the "solid state" era in electronics. All of a sudden every request for project funding had "solid state" justification.

    Now, I provided a link showing that global temperatures haven't increased in 16 years. That's quite a trend line, don't ya think??

    As for motive, I gave you two quotes. One, from Schneider said it was okay to lie. The other, from Jones, said that he would like to see it happen. And if he would like to see it happen that means he knows it hasn't happened.

    Parent

    Respond to my comment (none / 0) (#196)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:31:50 AM EST
    as God is my witness I will dog every idiotic comment you post until I see a graph that does not show global warming.

    I have nothing to do today.  It's raining?

    Parent

    GA, you are also welcome to read the (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 07:44:01 PM EST
    link.

    But you won't. Facts aren't your forte, just far out false claims.

    Have a nice night.

    Parent

    Here you go (none / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 07:38:29 PM EST
    I'll look at your links, (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 04:00:33 AM EST
    but so far, having looked at your link below re the melting of the glaciers, I'm much more, infinitely more impressed with the photographs reproduced here.

    The sources are the US Geological Survey and NASA.

    If you want me to wade through all of the links you provided, I ask you to tell me, in your own words, why you find that the photographic evidence provided by NASA and the USGS is bogus, or unconvincing.

    Parent

    Your links don't work (none / 0) (#173)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:54:20 AM EST
    If you were referring to my (none / 0) (#207)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 01:34:45 PM EST
    Follow my link and you will go to (none / 0) (#174)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:57:01 AM EST
    the

    The Danish Meteorological Institute (DMI) was established in 1872. More than 130 years later in 2013, the institute employs 350 people. DMI is an institution under the Danish Ministry of Climate, Energy and Building and has an annual turnover of approx. 285 million Danish Kroners.


    Parent
    OMG (none / 0) (#135)
    by Lora on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:08:34 PM EST
    Jim,

    (emphasis mine)

    A few of the reasons I don't believe in man made global warming.

    Does this mean you believe in global warming, just not man-made???

    Be still, my heart.

    Parent

    Take some medication.. irregular heart (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:18:26 PM EST
    beats can be deadly.

    Then, read the link, and then the other links, carefully consider that reality is a nasty ole thing and understand that climate change has been going since Noah saved the dinosaurs.

    Parent

    Maybe... (none / 0) (#154)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 04:03:46 AM EST
    but do you seriously deny the exponential acceleration of this warming over the last century?

    Parent
    Do you have any proof that (none / 0) (#184)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:31:28 AM EST
    this has happened or is continuing??

    Parent
    More (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:45:22 AM EST
    for ya

    Google is your friend

    Show me one that doesn't show an increase or stfu

    Parent

    Howdy, got a question for you (1.00 / 1) (#198)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:46:52 AM EST
    When speaking person to person do you call people "jerk?" Or tell them to STFU?????

    Somehow I don't think you do.

    Why is that??

    ;-)

    Parent

    What's it to you (none / 0) (#202)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:52:23 AM EST
    i said it to you.  Changing the subject is not going to work

    Parent
    Here (none / 0) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:37:37 AM EST
    Howdy.... the world didn't end in 2004 (none / 0) (#192)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:17:08 AM EST
    of course in Arkansas.... maybe.

    LOL

    Parent

    HEY!! ppjerk (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:24:45 AM EST
    put a graph where you big flapping mouth is.

    Don't give me a tabloid link give me a graph.
    I thought you wanted to "discuss" it.
     Let's  discuss dipsh!t.  Show us a graph of global temps that do not show an increase or shut the fvck up.

    Parent

    So when proven wrong you can only (none / 0) (#197)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:42:56 AM EST
    insult?? Do you also stomp the floor, close your eyes and say "....don't hear you... don't hear you...?"

    If you think the world ended in 2004 and that one year is meaningful maybe you should go to work for Algore.  In the meantime, since you want to use ancient sources:

    This is from an Australian at BMRC (not Neville Nicholls). It began from the attached article. What an idiot. The scientific community would come down on me in no uncertain terms if I said the world had cooled from 1998. OK it has but it is only 7 years of data and it isn't statistically significant.

    Taken from a July 5th 2005 email by Dr. Phil Jones head of England's prestigious Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia"

    BTW - That 7 year trend has continued.

    BTW - Did I mention that Jones thought it was private?????

    Watch those fits. At our age strokes due to blood pressure spikes are common.

     

    Parent

    show. Me. A . Graph (none / 0) (#201)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:50:53 AM EST
    a stupid email that may or may not be authentic proves nothing. I gave you graphs.  One of averages the others from nasa that cover years since 2004.
    You are full of sh!t.  I am sick of your bull sh!t plays for attention but I am not one of your enablers.  I want to see A GRAPH that shows there has not been increasing global temps.

    Provide it or admit what everyone here knows.  You are talking out your ass.

    Temps are assiduously recored.  This should be an easy one.
    No BS "emails" no links to some idiot tabloid.
    A freakin graph.


    Parent

    And here is some more things to think about (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:14:59 PM EST
    Wup, it's a darn shame (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by NYShooter on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:55:10 PM EST
    you, and, the Tea Party gang weren't around in the fifties to warn us off of Dr. Jonah Salk, and, his scientific "hoaxers." I mean, the very idea that you could develop a vaccine that would prevent polio, a disease that had been around like, forever. Now, that's just nuts! Just ask our new head of the EPA, he's got it right: "If there's such a thing as Global Warming god gave it to us. "Case closed."

    At least we can be grateful your grandson won't be a victim of polio. But, looking forward to a life of famine and depravation ain't such a great gift you're leaving him either, Jim.

    Parent

    Hello, Shooter, how ya been? (none / 0) (#182)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:22:45 AM EST
    Hope you've been well and it's not a high fever that makes you claim that I am anti-science and the hoxers are pro science.

    After all, I have repeatedly noted that "consensus" doesn't work because consensus isn't science. (See Karl Popper and a host of scientists.) And we all know that, in the past, consensus was used to justify treating pneumonia with bleeding and the germ theory was denied. Hundreds of women died because "doctors" wouldn't wash their hands or wear clean aprons.

    I have also noted that the Man Made Global Warming Theory is not a Scientific Theory because it fails to meet this.

    A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.[1][2] As with most (if not all) forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive power and explanatory force.[3][4]

    Scientific theories are testable and make falsifiable predictions.[5]

    Link

    What the MMGW "thing" is....is a small "t" theory. That puts it in the same category as a religion. It cannot be tested. Its predictions have been proven wrong. And belief in it demands acceptance on faith that "consensus" actually proves something.

    BTW - I have a theory on how to beat the slot machines in Vegas. I have consensus from numerous people. You can join by providing me a modest donation.... ;-)

    And I invite you to leave families out of the discussion.

    Parent

    You should heed your own advice. (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by Angel on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:21:11 AM EST
    And I invite you to leave families out of the discussion.

    You've been guilty of this on more than one occasion so don't even bother with a reply.  

    Parent

    Why should I bother with someone like you? (1.00 / 3) (#199)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:48:05 AM EST
    But have a super day.

    Parent
    I'm certain you wouldn't find it a bother if you (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Angel on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:55:35 AM EST
    thought you could disprove my comment.

    Parent
    Wrong again (none / 0) (#181)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:18:54 AM EST

    Through the month of October, the Arctic gained 3.39 million square kilometers (1.31 million square miles) of ice. This is faster than the average rate of ice gain for the month of October, but slower than the rate of ice gain seen in October 2012, after the record minimum of September 2012, and other recent Octobers.
    ..............................................
    Due to the relatively rapid ice growth during October, Arctic sea ice extent for October 2014 was the 6th lowest in the satellite record. Through 2014, the linear rate of decline for October Arctic ice extent over the satellite record is -6.9% per decade

    Don't know about your math skills, but a negative % represents a decline, at least in the real world.


    Link
    .

    This is from the COI page one of your links cites:

    In late 2012 sea ice climatology and anomaly data will be available here.

    You really have to vet your sources better, Jim, if you want people to take you seriously around here.

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#183)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:30:19 AM EST
    Autumn Greenland Ice Sheet Mass Gain At A Record High
    Posted on November 30, 2014

    Arctic Sea Ice Extent At A Decadal High Every Day In November

    Posted on November 30, 2014by stevengoddard
    Experts like Nobel Prize winner Al Gore predicted that the Arctic would be ice-free in 2014. Instead, we have seen a large increase in the amount of Arctic sea ice - which has been at a 10 year high every day this month.

    And from your link of my link.

    Arctic sea ice continued to expand throughout the month of October, remaining at near-average levels on the Atlantic side and below average on the Pacific side. In the Southern Hemisphere, Antarctic sea ice has



    Parent
    And your point is what??? (none / 0) (#200)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:50:34 AM EST
    Your response is so confused that it is meaningless.


    Parent
    Edger died 11.28.2014 (5.00 / 4) (#151)
    by themomcat on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 12:42:00 AM EST
    Three months ago he was diagnosed with end stage pancreatic cancer. He sent this message to a mutual friend last Monday

    I am checking into the hospital Tuesday and won't be coming out. I haven't told many people about this, but I was diagnosed three months ago with terminal pancreatic cancer and will be completely incapacitated very soon and will pass away ... Going out on my terms with a big happy smile on my face - so no crying, ok?

    Silly him, I am in tears.

    He was not just our fellow editor and web designer, he was a good friend who was caring, passionate and compassionate and with a strong sense of justice. He will be deeply missed.

    ***************

    Oh no (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 03:22:15 AM EST
    As you say, he will be deeply missed. The world will be a sadder place without him.

    Parent
    Edger was very much all those things (5.00 / 4) (#160)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 07:10:37 AM EST
    you described him as; I've missed his voice here, and am greatly saddened to learn of his passing.

    Thank you for letting us know.

    Parent

    I don't remember much about him (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 08:30:36 AM EST
    but sad news.  I wonder if he chose the time.  Do you know?

    It's something I would probably consider doing in that circumstance.

    RIP

    Parent

    What I mean is (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:29:27 AM EST
    going out on my own terms can mean different things to different people.  

    Parent
    I am so very sorry (5.00 / 4) (#166)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 08:34:40 AM EST
    to hear this, TMC.
    I always liked his comments on Talk Left, and missed him when he decided not to continue here.
    Thank you for letting us know.  He will be missed, and may he Rest in Peace.


    Parent
    So sad to hear this (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:22:15 AM EST
    I was sorry when he left TL, and now I am very sorry to hear this.

    Parent
    I am so sorry! (5.00 / 3) (#175)
    by ZtoA on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:57:23 AM EST
    Edger was one of my favorite commenters on TL and have been wondering where his voice was. It was because of Edger that I read about Stuxnet in Wired magazine several years ago and became fascinated about it. I always read his comments and his deep knowledge about tech and his direct style was appealing to me.  I remember that even when I did not agree with his opinions, or when I really did not know much about things he knew lots about, he always remained personable.

    Even tho I never knew him in person, this makes me very sad. My best to you and everyone in Edger's life. And my best to Edger. I hope his transition was indeed with a big happy smile on his face.

    Parent

    Edger's (5.00 / 5) (#190)
    by KeysDan on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:11:55 AM EST
    arguments appealed to the powers of intellect and reasoning.  His comments were welcomed reading and served as stimulation for rational discussion.   Missed his contributions to TL, and sad to learn of his passing.

    Parent
    wrote, but gdam I wish he were still here.

    Parent
    This is such sad news. (5.00 / 4) (#208)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 01:45:12 PM EST
    Edger was an informed and passionate commenter. He was also just really nice. I remember that he said he was moving up to British Columbia. I hope he made the move and was happy there.

    I am so very sorry to hear about Edger (5.00 / 4) (#209)
    by sj on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 03:43:13 PM EST
    I just peeked at his comment history. It is only 4 days shy of a year since his last comment.

    I've missed his voice this last year. Now it is silenced forever.

    Peace to him and his family.

    Better version: (4.50 / 8) (#16)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 04:00:12 PM EST
    Forget the link.

    A question for your lawyer types (1.00 / 4) (#77)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:10:31 AM EST
    Assume the following are all true:
    1.  Mike Brown robbed the store of the cigarillos
    2. Dorian Johnson added Brown both during and after the time in the store.
    3. Brown died in a failed attack on the officer attempting arrest.

    Dues this make Dorian Johnson guilty of felony murder?

    I wish we could attract (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:24:36 AM EST
    better trolls.  Srsly.

    Parent
    No but your comment (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:32:50 AM EST
    offers proof positive that Fox News and an extreme conservative ideology  rots brain cells to the point where intelligent thought is completely impossible.

    Parent
    Why is that? (1.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:04:25 PM EST

    My question was prompted by a case a few years back where an armed robber was shot dead by a store owner and the robber's accomplice was charges with felony murder.  

    What is it from a legal perspective that makes this different?

    Parent

    "armed robber???????????????????" (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:26:42 PM EST
    Maybe that, for starters.

    Parent
    He had arms (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 01:04:59 PM EST
    Also, the fact that you're assuming ... (none / 0) (#110)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 01:05:45 PM EST
    ... that Johnson conspired and/or participated in the underlying felony.  Given that the police already stated that he committed no crime, this is a hee-YOOGE/false assumption.

    Parent
    Not a crime? (none / 0) (#148)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 10:45:37 PM EST
    Receiving stolen property.

    Parent
    You're right (none / 0) (#157)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 06:31:45 AM EST
    You know better than the PD and prosecutor - not to mention the fact that "receiving stolen property" wasn't the underlying felony.

    Oy.

    Parent

    I didn't say I knew better. (none / 0) (#162)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 07:48:22 AM EST

    Just curious why Johnson would not be charged considering his admission that he got the knowingly stolen property from Brown.

    Parent
    Research the elements ... (none / 0) (#163)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 07:57:00 AM EST
    ... of receiving down property under Missouri law, then ask the PD and prosecutor.  All of which would be entirely irrelevant to the initial question of felony murder, since it's not the purported underlying felony and since there's no evidence that Johnson conspired or even knew of the robbery.

    Parent
    No evidence? (none / 0) (#205)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 12:34:00 PM EST
    Seriously? (none / 0) (#206)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 01:26:48 PM EST
    He didn't know of the robbery in advance.  Finding out about a felony after the fact does not make you a participant or culpable of felony murder.

    Oy.

    BTW - Your article also appears to negate the claim that DJ received stolen property, although you'll need to look up those elements on your own, if you're interested.

    Parent

    I don't know how the law views that kind of (none / 0) (#108)
    by McBain on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:50:41 PM EST
    situation. It seems unclear what role DJ played in the altercation.  One thing for sure, I don't trust witnesses who hire a lawyer and go on a media tour.

    Parent
    The Leaves are GONE (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 01:38:01 PM EST
    until next year.

    Halleylouuuuya!

    My leaves stay all year and (none / 0) (#12)
    by fishcamp on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 03:20:44 PM EST
    They're called fronds.  Trouble is, they come with coconuts, that can bash your windshield or head.  :-)

    Parent
    Coconuts (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 05:09:02 PM EST
    might be nice.  My house in LA had every kind if citrus tree imaginable.  And the all had fruit.  I would go out and grab lemons for lemonade.

    Parent
    I'm (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 07:10:53 PM EST
    sure they would be nice until one of them fell on you or fell of a tree and smashed your windshield like fish camp says.

    Parent
    A friend (none / 0) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 07:13:27 PM EST
    of mine lived in CA for a while and she had grape vines in her backyard. Soon after she moved in she said the neighbors came over and told her to make sure that she picked them and did not let them fall on the ground because it would attract rats. So they had everything imaginable you made with grapes. She said mostly they did a lot of juice because you can use up a lot of grapes juicing them.

    So many times I looked at her and said you sound crazy to have moved back here from CA. You seemed to have quite the life out there.

    Parent

    The previous owner (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:58:02 PM EST
    of my tiny house on a large lot in LA was the person who ran the LA arboretum.  The landscaping was amazing.  There was every kind of citrus tree also a olive tree, an avocado tree, a persimmon tree. A red plum and 6 purple plum trees, Apple, peach and pear trees plus palms and ferns, three huge California live oaks and 47 roses two giant trumpet flowers which were a kind of poisonous nightshade plus lots of smaller things Iike Rosemary.

    I miss it.

    Parent

    People have been known to (none / 0) (#159)
    by fishcamp on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 07:10:18 AM EST
    plant their mj plants near those trumpet flowers, for the bees to cross pollinate, and make the pot stronger.

    Parent
    The original Howard Hawks (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 03:08:16 PM EST
    Thing From Another World is on TCM at 3:15.

    You know where I will be.

    Mike Brown Death Certificate (none / 0) (#36)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:46:48 PM EST
    Mike Brown Death Certificate here

    Interesting that the time of the occurrance that led to Mike Brown's death is listed on his death certificate as 12:04.  

    However the shooting occurred much earlier ending at 12:02:14 and that is verified by the Glide audio recording.

    As confirmation Ferguson police dispatch identifies another unit arriving on the scene just 8 seconds after the shooting ends at 12:02:22.

    Links here:

    Ferguson Event Report #2014-029062 Complaint 14-12391:

    Timeline

    There is no factual basis for that 12:04 number.

    You'd better notify the County Recorder. (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:50:39 PM EST
    Ohhhh (none / 0) (#41)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 07:54:54 PM EST
    They know.

    Parent
    Chip, in a situation where death does (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 08:57:22 PM EST
    not take place in a hospital-type setting, time of death is not based on when it actually may have happened, but when someone in an official capacity is on site to pronounce the death.

    My aunt's husband died at least a week before his body was discovered (my aunt was in a nursing home in Virginia, her husband lived alone not far from there.  The nursing home called when they hadn't seen him for about a week - he used to visit every day.  I had to call the local authorities - I'm in MD - to authorize them to go into the house, where they subsequently found him on the living room floor.  His date of death was noted as being that night, and not the week or so earlier when it probably happened.

    Bottom line here is, don't read something into the time of death that isn't there.

    Parent

    You're right -- (none / 0) (#62)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 10:59:51 PM EST
    You're not dead until someone pronounces you dead.

    But look at the report:

    There are two separate times listed -- time of the occurrance at 12:04 and time of death at 12:18 by an EMT.

    12:18 is documented and understandable. 12:04 is not. That event was over before 12:04 as that police event report and Glide audio recording testify to.

    What's also noticeable is that the Glide audio recording and that police event report are absent from the Grand Jury report entirely -- unless I missed them somewhere.

    And the timestamps for most of the police dispatches are absent as well. For those we have to go back to the St Louis Public Radio.

    In an event where time and timing and timeline are all so critical to understanding what happened, they did their best to execrate it from the report.

    Parent

    Comment by Atrios (none / 0) (#46)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 08:52:21 PM EST
    There's Always Wingnut Welfare
    I imagine he'll do very well..for a little while, at least.


    Another insightful comment: (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:07:35 PM EST
    "And if we can afford tanks, rocket launchers, grenades, etc. for our police forces, we can afford cameras."

    Parent
    You may have heard me mention (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:13:24 PM EST
    that there are cops in my family.  I have heard them brag and laugh about disabling their dash cams.

    I only mention this to make the point that cameras are good.  But not a solution.

    Parent

    lol; if I were in charge (none / 0) (#103)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:30:54 PM EST
    they couldn't be turned off.  Period.

    Of course, absent legislation provoked by great citizen unrest, those wouldn't sell worth a damn to the Porcine Protectorate.

    Parent

    I worry about the baby. (none / 0) (#125)
    by Palli on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 04:54:24 PM EST
    Sonic Trails - Foo Fighters (none / 0) (#55)
    by Slado on Sat Nov 29, 2014 at 09:46:10 PM EST
    Is anyone watching this series on HBO?

    Totally fascinating and so well done.   I've always liked the Foo Fighters but never been a fan.   Now I love Dave Grohl.

    Who new he could direct great documentaries?

    Each one stands on its own and the interviews and Music make it special.   My favorite was Nashville because I lived so long there and was enveloped by music while living there and he did such a great job of capturing the history of why Nashville is home to great songwriters.

    Anyway I higly recommend it.

    Lies unravel (none / 0) (#69)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:12:26 AM EST
    Radio Calls found by the Post.

    "Wilson has told authorities that he called 'Shots fired, send all cars' on his radio, but during the struggle his radio had been jarred and the channel changed."

    So this call should be found somewhere on some other channel but the Post says:

    "The Post-Dispatch reviewed radio calls made during that period on all St. Louis County police channels, the fire channel used by Ferguson and other channels publicly archived online and could not locate the call."

    The GJ Report on Radio Traffic agrees. The call is nonexistent.

    The Report does however list him calling  "Put me on Canfield with two, and send me another car".

    But the Report leaves off the time of that call and all calls.  For those times we have to go back to the Post which lists that call as taking place at 12:02 -- about a minute after he began his interaction with the jaywalkers and just before he ran after Brown.

    Unit 24 was the first one on the scene at 12:02:22 but in response to a 911 call prior to 12:02 -- not in response to Wilson's call.

    So where is that 911 call or any of the 911 calls in the report???

    Again, no. (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 08:29:12 AM EST
    So this call should be found somewhere on some other channel

    This is old news and merely confirms that his PORTABLE unit got jarred/hit in some manner that it malfunctioned.

    Chip, I doubt it, but have you ever actually been in a real sure enough fight in which there is hitting, grabbing, pushing and shoving? Trust me. Things happen.

    Parent

    Channel change (none / 0) (#76)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:09:33 AM EST
    PORTABLE unit got jarred/hit in some manner that it malfunctioned.

    So I guess you missed this:

    his radio had been jarred and the channel changed."

    He said that the "channel changed" not that it malfunctioned.

    That's why the Post went searching for that call on the other channels -- but they came up empty as did the investigators.

    And all his equipment was working fine when investigators checked it.

    Furthermore how and why would he make the 12:02 call and then follow up with essentially the same call and when??? before, after, during???

    Answer: He didn't. He made the one call at 12:02 -- that's all and that's all the evidence shows.

    All else is part of his Tall Tale of the Tussler at the Tahoe -- for which corroborating evidence is sorely lacking.

    Parent

    Who knows??? (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:30:31 AM EST
    Perhaps it got stuck between channels. Perhaps it got bumped off for minute or two. Perhaps the channel remained correct and Wilson just thought he punched the transmit button.

    Who cares??

    No one is arguing that Wilson wasn't there. No one is arguing that Wilson didn't fire two shots while in the Tahoe...No one is arguing that Brown didn't reach inside the Tahoe... oh wait... Johnson claimed that Wilson reached out and choked Brown... but guess what else they didn't find????

    They didn't find any choke marks on Brown's neck.

    Why do you keep on with your false arguments?? Why do you want to ignore the findings of the grand jury?? Hasn't the people of Ferguson been injured enough by lies and speculation??

    You make claims but have no proof. And then you claim that the lack of proof is your proof.

    Let me sum it up for you. If we had some ham we'd have some ham and eggs if we had some eggs.

    Parent

    You're missing both ham AND eggs (none / 0) (#100)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:05:18 PM EST
    What's particularly amusing is that you are doing precisely what you accuse Uncle Chip of doing - claiming a "lack of proof is your proof" and making false claims.

    oh wait... Johnson claimed that Wilson reached out and choked Brown... but guess what else they didn't find????

    They didn't find any choke marks on Brown's neck.

    So you're claiming a "lack of proof" (i.e. "choke marks") is your proof that Wilson didn't grab Johnson.

    Heh.

    More importantly, Johnson did not claim that Wilson choked Brown, as you claim.  What he actually said was that Wilson reached out and grabbed him in the neck area and by his shirt (see testimony starting on page 49):

    "The Officer grabbed, he grabbed a hold of Big mike's shirt around the neck area" - absolutely no where in his testimony does Johnson make a claim that he was choking Brown, let alone long enough for him to leave bruises on his neck.

    Oops.

    Parent

    Oh really???? (none / 0) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:34:36 PM EST
    his hand out and grab, does he say something, did he
    7 say anything?

    8 A No, ma'am, at this time when the door had
    9 closed back on him, he didn't say anything. His arm
    10 almost in an instant came out the window, his left
    ll arm, I remember it was his left arm, came out the

    12 window and touched Big Mike around his neck area and
    13 his throat. I watched his hands, you know, they
    14 really tightened up, so yeah, he had a good grip on

    15 it, that what's I saw first.

    ROFLMAO

    Parent

    Yes - REALLY (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 01:15:04 PM EST
    For the reading/comprehension impaired, you just restated exactly what I said and linked to.  Johnson stated that Wilson grabbed Brown in the "neck area" and by his shirt.  But when you finish laughing at yourself, why don't you point out where Johnson claimed Wilson "choked" Brown, or where he said he had a grip on his neck (as opposed to neck area) for long enough to leave your imagined "choke marks".

    (Hint - Now's the time to start rolling on the floor with laughter).

    Parent

    His neck area (none / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 02:43:17 PM EST
    That would be his neck. Not his shirt. Not his shoulder.....

    And thanks for proving you really aren't interested in facts, just silly gotcha games.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Grabbed shirt around the neck area (none / 0) (#117)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 03:19:21 PM EST
    That would be his neck. Not his shirt. Not his shoulder

    And that makes you incorrect again today.

    Lines 23-25 Page 49:

    The officer grabbed, he grabbed ahold of Big Mike's shirt around the neck area.

    And that was with his left arm thus explaining how Wilson came to get Brown's blood on the back of his left forearm.

    You should quit while you are behind, Jim.

    Parent

    No, the "neck area" (none / 0) (#122)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 04:39:29 PM EST
    ... would include the area around his neck, including his shirt, as he testified.  More importantly, he never said Wilson choked Brown, as you claimed he did, which explains the lack of "choke marks" you keep fantasizing about.

    Parent
    Uh, you do know.... (none / 0) (#123)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 04:47:40 PM EST
    The headbone connected to the neckbone..

    12 window and touched Big Mike

    around his neck area and
    13 his throat.

    I watched his hands, you know, they
    14 really tightened up,
    so yeah, he had a good grip on

    AND HIS THROAT.

    THEY REALLY TIGHTENED UP

    lol

    Parent

    You should keep laughing (none / 0) (#126)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 05:41:42 PM EST
    ... at your silly claims.  Grabbing someone by their shirt - in their neck area - is not grabbing them by their neck.  And it most certainly is not "choking" them, which is why you can't produce the statement you claimed Johnson made, or the imaginary "choke marks" you keep fantasizing about.

    False claims and proof by lack of evidence - exactly the hypocritically accusation you made about Uncle Chip.

    "LOL"!

    Parent

    This is what Johnson said (none / 0) (#131)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 07:19:47 PM EST
    I remember it was his left arm, came out the

    12 window and touched Big Mike around his neck area and
    13 his throat.
    I watched his hands, you know, they
    14 really tightened up, so yeah, he had a good grip on

    15 it, that what's I saw first.

    Note the bold "his neck area and his throat." ....You know they really tightened up...."

    You can huff and puff but there it is. In black and white.

    Parent

    That's PART of what he said (none / 0) (#143)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:33:13 PM EST
    As I said, he did say he grabbed him in the neck area, right after he said he grabbed his shirt.  For those unfamiliar with shirts, the go up to the neck area.

    What he NEVER said - as you claimed - was that Wilson choked Brown.

    That was just your silly lie.

    Parent

    You guys are like a comedy team... (none / 0) (#161)
    by fishcamp on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 07:16:23 AM EST
    Gesh (none / 0) (#171)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:49:41 AM EST
    He clear says Wilson had Brown by the throat.

    touched Big Mike around his neck area and
    13 his throat. I watched his hands, you know, they
    14 really tightened up, so yeah, he had a good grip on

    15 it, that what's I saw first.

    Your attempt to prove what I posted incorrect defines your unhealthy focus on me.

    Parent

    So either ... (none / 0) (#191)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 11:13:07 AM EST
    ... Wilson's hand magically divided into two, or when DJ said he grabbed him by his "throat", he was talking about his shirt and neck area , which is what he stated during his testimony.

    Not to mention the larger issue, which is that he never stated that Wilson "choked" Brown (as you claimed he did) let alone long enough to leave any marks.

    Parent

    It's been said somewhere... (none / 0) (#155)
    by unitron on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 05:00:07 AM EST
    ...that the radio was switched in the scuffle to a receive-only channel, i.e., one to which he could listen, but not transmit.

    There's no known way to record a transmission that didn't occur.

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#78)
    by whitecap333 on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:11:11 AM EST
    the "shots fired" call was made from the unit Wilson bore on his left shoulder.  Not hard to imagine how something could have gone haywire there.

    As best as I can puzzle it out, Chip is proposing that Wilson had no idea Brown was a suspect in the Ferguson Market robbery until after he had shot him.  Here are a few excerpts from the logs:

    Track 349: Dispatcher: "We're taking a stealing in progress from 9101 West Florissant."

    Track 350: Dispatcher: "25... He took a whole box of Swisher cigars."

    Track 358: Officer:  "He's with another man.  He's got a red Cardinal's hat, white t-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts."

    Track 366: Officer 21[Wilson] "21 to 25 or 22.  Do you guys need me?"

    Mark O'Mara was on CNN yesterday afternoon (I think the host was a Susan Cambiotta, something like that.)  One of his observations:  "It's undeniable that he turned, because the blood trail turned, and that he came back 25 feet."  On the claim that Brown's hands were elevated:  "That is an aggressive situation for the person you're walking towards.  That's why they want you on the ground."

    Decent article in WaPo today, covering conflicting witness testimony on the "hands up" issue:  "Was Michael Brown surrendering or advancing to attack Officer Darren Wilson?"  Unfortunately, it didn't occur to them to inquire into whether Brown was instructed by Wilson to halt.  I believe several witnesses confirm that he did.  

    Parent

    You left out the part (none / 0) (#80)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:27:28 AM EST
    where Units 22 and 25 said that the two had disappeared, and Wilson said that he knew nothing about the stealing, and he was headed back to the station for lunch.

    Regarding the rest please check out the ground at markers 19 and 20 where he turned around.

    Parent

    Witnesses (none / 0) (#84)
    by whitecap333 on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:49:19 AM EST
    rely on memory, and can be unreliable.  Recorded radio logs owe nothing to memory.

    I'll go with O'Mara on the blood trail.

    Parent

    O'Mara (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 10:31:46 AM EST
    I'll go with O'Mara on the blood trail.

    Good -- let's hear what he says:

    "It's undeniable that he turned, because the blood trail turned

    So then he admits to a bloodtrail at that point -- a blood trail that shows he turned -- meaning he was bleeding before he turned.

    In the report detectives admit to walking the ground from the Tahoe to the body finding not one drop of blood -- none at all.

    And yet there is this big pool of blood at the point where he turned around and came back.

    What does that tell you??? Let me help you.

    It means that he was shot at that spot with his back to Wilson just before he turned around -- just as witnesses saw.

    On the claim that Brown's hands were elevated:  "That is an aggressive situation for the person you're walking towards.  That's why they want you on the ground."

    So he acknowledges that his hands WERE up where that bloodtrail was at the point where and when  he turned around.

    Parent

    Chip, please leave links when you quote (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:36:44 PM EST
    there are copy right issues as well as your credibility.

    Parent
    Uncle Chip (none / 0) (#81)
    by Palli on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:29:54 AM EST
    Have you read the Sept.3 testimony pf StLC crime detective in the of the 4799 pages of GJ transcript? Here are the relevant regarding the distance issue with certain posters.

    Vol. 2 page 144 19-25
    Q Were there any droppings between the officer's car and the body?
    A What type of droppings? Blood  droppings?
    A No.
    Q (Ms. Alizadeh (Asst Pros. Atty.) There wasn't?
    Continues to page 145 Line 1-12
    A No. I walked from my crime scene van to where the body was that day no less than 50 times, Along with the other 3 detectives ...and no one saw any, no one noticed any, we looked, nothing was ever found between the officer's car and where Michael Brown was.
    Q What's the distance between the police car, the officer's car and the body, do you know?
    A 153 feet and 9 inches.

    Alizadeh does not pursue this further. Wonder why?

    Also noteworthy, Alizadeh on page 146 she begins discussing DW's gun Line 6
    Q His weapon was seized and we will hear testimony from by other officers, you were told that his weapon was seized and that it was checked...
    Alizadeh leaves the impression that DW's gun is secure as evidence.

    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/11/24/ferguson-evidence/assets/gj-testimony/grand-jur y-volume-02.pdf

    blood drops (none / 0) (#89)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 10:58:42 AM EST
    I walked from my crime scene van to where the body was that day no less than 50 times, Along with the other 3 detectives ...and no one saw any, no one noticed any, we looked, nothing was ever found between the officer's car and where Michael Brown was.

    This is devastating because if he had been hit in the hand at the Tahoe it would have been bleeding like a sieve on the door and the ground all the way to where he turned around 180 feet away.

    But there was no blood drippings on the ground  for 153 feet of that 180 foot run.

    Instead there's a big pool at markers 19 & /20 180 feet away where he stopped for a second and turned -- marking the stop and then the turn.

    Retired prosecutors in SL say that's pretty clear evidence of a hand wound as they bleed quickly and profusely and leave a trail when you move your hand.

    Thus evidence points to him being shot in the hand at that point before he turns.

    Even Wilson in his testimony backhandedly admits to shooting his hand there.

    So where is the shell casing from that shot??? Did anyone check Wilson's pockets before he left the scene???

    Parent

    I bet (none / 0) (#91)
    by whitecap333 on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:18:31 AM EST
    Wilson swallered it.

    Parent
    By golly I think you have it. (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:38:26 AM EST
    So, the trolls toss out the bait, (none / 0) (#146)
    by NYShooter on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 10:19:18 PM EST
    giggling uncontrollably, and, you (along with others) leap at the worm as if you're a large mouth bass on the cover of Field & Stream.

    I don't mean to be critical, but, what, exactly do you think you're accomplishing, feeding these guys who are just offering you golden showers, and, you answer as if they're actually serious?

    Parent

    Your Link Doesn't work (none / 0) (#98)
    by RickyJim on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:55:13 AM EST
    And by the way, that is an improper link for this forum.  Use the link icon.  Is this a picture that shows the same thing?

    What are you trying to prove anyway?  You really doubt that Brown got some injury while at the SUV?  His blood is on it.

    Parent

    Good picture (none / 0) (#150)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:33:56 PM EST
    Their 120 feet turned out to be 153 feet, didn't it???

    Oh well -- correction is good -- right???

    And this is a good picture of the scene and where everything wound up.

    Shell casings 16 and 18 are a lot closer to where Brown turned around at 19 and 20 than I thought.
    So he might have been a bit closer than 25 feet when he started firing and then backed up as he was shooting.

    And then there is projectile 17 laying way back there on the road away from all the action. How did it get there???

    I wonder which bullet that would have been???

    It can't be from the two shots at the Tahoe. So which of the remainder shots could it have been???

    Was it one of those magic bullets that changes direction in mid air.

    As I recall in the Sandy Hook case they were able to match up every projectile with its own particular shell casing to tell which shot fired from where hit what.

    I wonder if they did that here and reunited it with its shell casing or if they were unsuccessful in that regard.

    Parent

    Blood wiped from gun (none / 0) (#83)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:42:01 AM EST
    Apparent blood was cleaned from the firearm before analysis. The firearm is in otherwise normal firing condition.

    Crime lab firearm

    I'm sure the CSIs were diligent here in checking the weapon first for Brown's fingerprints in that blood or any other of his DNA and found none before they subsequently wiped the weapon clean to fire it.

    No Brown fingerprints at all in that blood on that gun that Wilson said he had his hand all over.

    And that firearm that supposedly went click click click such that he had to rack it there in the Tahoe worked just fine in the crime lab.

    Chip, I have posted the ME (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 11:37:15 AM EST
    explaining his actions.

    Of course since there was this conspiracy going to have Wilson show up and kill Brown we know the ME is actually telling a lie.

    (Sarcasm alert)

    Parent

    ME (none / 0) (#104)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:32:00 PM EST
    I have posted the ME explaining his actions.

    I must have missed that. Can you post it again??

    And then tell us if that explanation came before or after she found out that there was so little blood from the wound at the Tahoe, and no blood along his trail for 180 feet, but so much blood suddenly appearing at the place where he turned around 180 feet away???

    Parent

    The ME gave a very detailed explanation (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 02:53:36 PM EST
    in GJ V3 starting around page 41.

    I aint gonna do your work twice.

    I have no idea, and neither do you, how badly his hand was injured.

    And I don't even have any details on the blood trail.

    You got any pics? Description???

    Parent

    19 and 20 (none / 0) (#118)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 03:39:53 PM EST
    I have no idea, and neither do you, how badly his hand was injured.

    You have no idea because it wasn't injured.

     Any injuries to his hand would have been detailed in the autopsy and there are none.

    Here's the Daily Mail article with pictures of the markers 19 & 20.

    Parent

    My mistake (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 04:11:09 PM EST
    I thought you were referring to his left hand for which no injuries are listed in the autopsy.

    On the other hand those injuries as described by the autopsy would make it a real bleeder -- as 19 and 20 show.

    If the shot to his hand didn't bleed a lot then he sure stood there a long time with his hand at his side to make those puddles.

    Parent

    Still no link no proof (2.00 / 1) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 07:13:45 PM EST
    Look, provide some proof or just accept the fact that you have no credibility.

    I mean links are your friend.

    Parent

    You're accusing someone of having no credibility? (4.50 / 2) (#133)
    by Angel on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 07:41:55 PM EST
    That's a laugh riot.

    Parent
    It's his new favorite word (5.00 / 4) (#180)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:13:21 AM EST
    which is like me correcting people for spelling and punctuation

    Parent
    Just in case you miss Armando's (none / 0) (#102)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 12:28:47 PM EST
    sports betting  posts, see today's DK.

    In the spirit of current events in the US.... (none / 0) (#114)
    by ZtoA on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 01:28:51 PM EST
    "We have passed the phase of traditional honor killings," said Gulsum Kav, a medical ethics doctor in Istanbul who founded We Will Stop Women Murders. "Now we are facing modern murder. Women want a divorce, and the families aren't adjusted to it."

    link

    Local police said the girls were gang-raped and murdered. The five men were arrested and later released on bail.

    The federal agency took over the probe following public outrage over the deaths of the two cousins, who were about 14 years of age. They were the daughters of two brothers.

    "The CBI has come to the conclusion that the allegations of sexual assault and murder were false. It was a case of suicide," Prasad said.

    link

    Walking Dead (none / 0) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:25:34 PM EST
    wow
    Just watched a great finale to the best season yet of the WD.

    There really should be more WD fans here.  There is a reason it's the number one TV show in the country.

    And it's not zombies.

    One more (none / 0) (#144)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 09:54:51 PM EST
    There is a fan show called Talking Dead after every new episode that I never watch but I watched it tonight because one of everyone's favorite characters died tonight and (s)he is on.

    It's great.  If there are any fans that like me usually skip it, watch it.

    Parent

    Weird weather (none / 0) (#147)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 at 10:36:00 PM EST
    it was beautiful here today.  74 and sunny.  I had some outside stuff that I actually decided to put off till a cooler day.
    Tonight there is a winter weather advisory through tomorrow afternoon.    Temp has dropped about 25 since sunset and the freezing rain is starting.  The high tomorrow is suppose to be about 30.

    But it upper 60s back on Tuesday!

    8-P

    Beautiful weather yesterday (none / 0) (#176)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 09:59:16 AM EST
    Ice storms this morning. Unfortunately, we are not forecasted to get back into the 60s on Tuesday, just high forties.


    Parent
    That changed a bit (none / 0) (#178)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:11:13 AM EST
    we are now 59s tomorrow.  That's ok.   Cool enough to tear down my old shed.  Befor it falls down.

    Parent
    Um (none / 0) (#179)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 01, 2014 at 10:11:42 AM EST
    50s not 59s

    Parent