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Thursday Open Thread

Time for a new open thread. All topics welcome.

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    December Lights (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:31:52 PM EST
    Walking doggy Celeste @5;30, I noticed that the lights are gradually going up in the city.  The multi-color joyful lights, the serene greens & blues, the simple white lights ... single strands, layered, and all bright in the dark.  They have always been warm, these Christmas Lights, warm against the cold.  It isn't cold here in Denver yet (that will come.)

    Oh, the Christmas lights.  Don't you want to smile and soak them in with your whole self!  Smile and sort of cry a little at the same time.  Always beautiful.

    C&L (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:28:41 PM EST
    The talking heads on CNN did their best to dismiss any influence Elizabeth Warren might have on whether this godawful "cromnibus" spending bill is passed or not. Let's hope she proves them wrong.

    From this Thursday's New Day on CNN, Inside Politics host John King and guests Tamara Keith from NPR and The Atlantic's Molly Ball did their best to try to dismiss what they called the "Elizabeth Warren caucus" in the Democratic party and her ability to potentially put the brakes on this godawful "cromnibus" spending bill that Congressional leadership and the White House are doing their best to ram through before anyone has a chance to see what's in it.

    As we've already discussed here, "there are a lot of reasons why this budget deal shouldn't happen, but gutting Dodd-Frank might be one of the biggest" but you'd barely know it from listening to the pundits on CNN. Rather than focus on whether Warren has a point about how damaging it would be to dismantle the protections that were passed in Dodd-Frank and how unbelievable it is that anyone would want to stick the taxpayers with the cost of another bailout that all of these politicians continually pretend they're opposed to, it was all politics with these people.

    They'd rather compare Warren to Ted Cruz, dismiss her objections because they don't believe the progressive caucus in the Democratic party is large enough to have any influence, and then paint her objections as just another fundraising ploy for liberal groups that would like to see her throw her hat in the ring and run for president.

    LINK

    I think they also don't want anyone to (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Anne on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:42:07 PM EST
    notice the nomination of Antonio Weiss to under Secretary of the Treasury - something else Senator Warren objects to.  What's his claim to fame?  Anyone remember the Burger King tax inversion?

    One of the reasons Elizabeth Warren and others oppose Wall Street millionaire Antonio Weiss, Obama's nominee for an under-secretary of the Treasury position, is his involvement as "global head of investment banking" with Lazard Ltd., a huge bank that specializes in corporate tax avoidance deals known as "inversions." (My coverage is here and here.) As Senator Warren said in a recent speech:

       "In addition to his lack of basic qualifications, Mr. Weiss was part of the Burger King inversion deal that moved the U.S. company to Canada as part of a merger that would cut down on its tax obligations," Warren said.

    Earlier she wrote in the pages of the Huffington Post:


        Let's speak plainly: This was a tax deal, plain and simple. It was designed to reduce Burger King's tax burden, and Weiss was an important and highly paid part of the team.

    [...]

    ▪ Antonio Weiss, the Obama nominee who put the Burger King deal on the front pages, is not only big at Lazard Ltd., which specializes in these deals. He's an Obama bundler as well, to the tune of at least $200,000 in the last cycle, if not more. Is this appointment Obama's "thank you" gift, both to Weiss and Lazard?

    [...]

    ▪ Antonio Weiss will get bonuses of $6-30 million on leaving Lazard, if he takes a high-level job in government. Payment in advance for services not-yet-rendered? You decide.



    Parent
    Just wait (5.00 / 4) (#103)
    by lentinel on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:06:17 AM EST
    until Obama doesn't have to worry about being reelected.
    Then he'll show his true progressive colors.

    Parent
    Th bill just passed (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:52:45 PM EST
    219 to 206

    57 yea dems

    67 no from the Rs

    Parent

    We can always count on enough Dems (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:51:14 PM EST
    to assist the Republicans in passing their corporate welfare programs and screwing ordinary folks.

    Unfortunately, I think this is just a preview of what's to come.

    Parent

    And it's even worse that the parts (5.00 / 5) (#137)
    by Anne on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:33:04 PM EST
    that have gotten all the attention...

    David Dayen:

    But there's so much more to the CRomnibus than just those two riders. Under the bill, trustees would be enabled to cut pension benefits to current retirees, reversing a 40-year bond with workers who earned their retirement packages. Voters in the District of Columbia who approved legalized marijuana will see their initiative vaporized, with local government prohibited from taxing or regulating the drug's sale. Trucking companies can make roads less safe by giving their employees 82-hour work weeks without sufficient rest breaks. Pell grants for college students will be cut, with the money diverted to private student loan contractors who have actively harmed borrowers. Government financiers of overseas projects will be prevented from stopping funding for coal-fired power plants. Blue Cross and Blue Shield will be allowed to count "quality improvement" measures toward their mandatory health spending under Obamacare's "medical loss ratio" provision, a windfall saving them millions of dollars.

    I'm not done. The bill eliminates a bipartisan measure to end "backdoor" searches by the NSA of Americans' private communications. It blocks the EPA from regulating certain water sources for farmers. It adds an exception to allow the U.S. to continue to fund Egypt's military leadership. In a giveaway to potato growers, it reduces nutrition standards in school lunches and the Women, Infant and Children food aid program. It halts the listing of new endangered species. It stops the regulation of lead in hunting ammunition or fishing equipment. It limits contributions to the Green Climate Fund to compensate poor countries ravaged by climate change. I could go on. And even if the offending measures on derivatives and campaign finance were removed, all of that dreck would remain.

    But, it's bipartisan, so that's good, right?

    Parent

    At least the people in D.C. have clarity. (5.00 / 5) (#138)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:39:52 PM EST
    They know they've got no representation in Congress.  

    The rest of us poor slobs still suffer with the illusion that we do.

    Parent

    Kevin Drum is happy (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:03:37 PM EST
    so we should all just stfu I guess

    Parent
    Senate democrats are trying (none / 0) (#175)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 07:12:30 PM EST
    to strip out the part of the "cromnibus" that was written, literally written, by Citigroup.  That would make the banker lapdogs vote specifically on that.

    Parent
    Just heard on Lawerence (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:10:50 PM EST
    that Reed is delaying passing this to give the senate time to debate it tomorrow.  So it's not over.

    Parent
    Don't (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:43:07 PM EST
    agree with what CNN is saying here but honestly some of these Warren fans over at the big Orange and other places really are doing her no favors.

    Parent
    I diagnose this problem (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:50:41 PM EST
    as reading Big Orange.

    Why?

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 07:29:28 AM EST
    really should not.

    Parent
    Wonder Warren (5.00 / 3) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 06:27:42 PM EST
    just took the senate floor.  And she's on fire.

    I'm liking this Pope... (5.00 / 3) (#191)
    by desertswine on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:17:02 PM EST
    more and more...  All Dogs Go to Heaven
    But we knew that already.

    I love that this has gone viral. (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Angel on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:42:24 PM EST
    Not sure why we needed the Pope to (5.00 / 3) (#199)
    by Anne on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 07:04:13 AM EST
    tell us this, unless it's a Catholic thing, whereby you don't believe something unless the Pope says you can.

    With respect to religious matters, and as a non-Catholic, and a human being, I pretty much allow myself to believe what makes the most sense to me, and for as long as I've had dogs (and cats, too), what's always made sense to me is that there's no way our beloved pets would be excluded from heaven.  

    But if, for some reason, God turns out to not see the same sense in that that I do, I'll be sure to let Him know that, having had a place in my heart for all of my dear, departed pets, they are indelibly printed on my soul, so where it goes, so does the essence of my pets.  

    So there.

    But I don't think that's going to happen.  I'd like to think that God, in His infinite wisdom, understands that these beloved creatures made us better people, and taught us things about unconditional love and how not be afraid to love, about opening our hearts and how to comfort others, and about things we might not otherwise have known about ourselves, that helped us with the humans in our lives.

    Glad to know the Pope apparently agrees, but he isn't telling us, really, anything we pet lovers didn't already know and believe.

    Parent

    It is a Catholic thing, Anne. (5.00 / 4) (#200)
    by caseyOR on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 08:53:47 AM EST
    And once again this pope has riled the conservative faction of the Curia. While I am not one of those who thinks Francis is the second coming of John XXIII, he does seem to enjoy tweaking the stodgy old wearers of the red beanie and their acolytes. And I do like that.

    Conservative Church teachings have held that animals lack a soul and, thus, cannot enter heaven. Seriously, this has been an actual issue in Church teachings. John Paul II seemed to lean toward the "All Dogs Go To Heaven" school of thought, but his successor, Benedict XVI, slapped that idea down as soon as he was in power.

    My take on Pope Francis' remarks is that he was trying to comfort a little boy who was sad about the death of his dog, not that he was fueling a theological fire.

    Parent

    Maybe it's because (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 09:00:27 AM EST
    i am a dog lover.  Well, animal lover really, I knew this.    And honestly it's always been one of my (many) problems with the church.

    IMO anyone who believes dogs don't have a sole either

    A. Don't understand the meaning of "sole" or

    B. Never had a dog.

    Parent

    In fact, dogs have 4 soles. (5.00 / 5) (#203)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 11:46:07 AM EST


    Wall Street Journal reviewed my book (4.71 / 14) (#5)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 05:53:44 PM EST
    My husband loves the book (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 09:15:00 AM EST
    He says I can't give it away to fitness niece.  It must live here always.  He loves all the scribblings and your photos of the first mountain bikes as it evolved.

    Parent
    I snick around the paywall (4.33 / 6) (#14)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:55:48 PM EST
    The invention of the mountain bike might be the most intriguing story in the history of the bicycle. It is certainly the most unlikely. Around 1973, young hippie bike bums in California began riding pre-World War II, single-speed "cruiser bikes" downhill, at full tilt, on dirt trails--for fun. The aged bikes, nicknamed "clunkers," were cheap and dispensable. Riders hammered them until they broke and then bought another one.

    Slowly, the bikes changed. Nonessential parts were stripped off. New parts, cannibalized from every kind of two-wheeled vehicle, were added. Tires got fatter, frames were strengthened, brakes were improved, cranks got longer; in time, derailleur gears and thumb shifters appeared. All these features and components had been previously invented. It's just that no one had put them all together, on one frame, with the specific aim of blitzing trails.

    The greatest concentration of riders actively modifying clunkers was in Marin County, north of San Francisco. There fortune threw together a critical mass of athletic, inquisitive, competitive cyclists. None of them had gone to college. Few had proper jobs. They included Joe Breeze, a racing cyclist who also built frames, and Gary Fisher, an ex-Category 1 road racer and excellent mechanic. Later Tom Ritchey, a junior road racer and accomplished frame builder, joined the scene. At the center of it all was Charlie Kelly, the charismatic organizer--a rock-band roadie, writer and general outlaw with a passion for two wheels.

    In the hands of this small coterie, the clunker evolved incrementally into the mountain bike, the form of the bicycle that would go on to blaze a technological trail through the late 20th century. It was the most significant innovation in the design of the bicycle since John Kemp Starley's Rover Safety, which in 1885 introduced the diamond-shaped frame, and the beginning of a gold rush that revitalized the global bicycle industry. In 1996, mountain biking became an Olympic sport.



    Parent
    What did you ever do to Molly Boom? (5.00 / 4) (#88)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 11:25:53 PM EST
    Who the hell is Molly Bloom (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:05:30 PM EST
    and why is a bug up her a$$ about biking Mike Locokvich?

    Parent
    You can (none / 0) (#149)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:35:51 PM EST
    check out her comment history.  Just click on her name on one of the ratings.

    Parent
    Molly Bloom does not comment (none / 0) (#150)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:44:54 PM EST
    here very often, though she has in the past. A fine intellect.  But, of course, who knows re today's ratings.  

    Parent
    Mick Luckovich (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:40:01 PM EST
    has a fine mind.  Repacks mind isn't that bad either.  Lurking and giving totally inexplicable "1" doesn't really support your statement.

    Parent
    Who cares? I'm entitled to my (none / 0) (#168)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:56:33 PM EST
    opinion. If repeal cares about his ratings let him call her out n

    Parent
    As am I (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 06:23:25 PM EST
    if SHE has a problem with his biking book, fer gods sake, or the most brilliant political cartoonist alive let her say so.  

    Parent
    Let repack worry about it if he cares. (none / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 06:14:17 PM EST
    Nice, Repack, congrats! (none / 0) (#17)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:00:12 PM EST
    Aww... (none / 0) (#7)
    by sj on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:12:07 PM EST
    ... sorry I can't read the review. It's behind a pay wall, but congratulations :)

    Parent
    Congratulations (none / 0) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:37:58 PM EST
    Since it is behind a pay wall, how about giving us a couple of quotes from the review.

    If not, I'm glad to hear that it is being so well received.

    Parent

    Repack, way to go bra... (none / 0) (#34)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:43:23 PM EST
    We were doing the same things in Aspen, at the same time, but you guys forged way ahead of us.  We had to quit when it snowed, and then I became an ancient.  Happens fast.  I tried dumping my WSJ cookies to get past the wall, but I'm just going to buy the book.  Keep it going brother.

    Parent
    I must admit to having burned several hours (none / 0) (#92)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 06:50:34 AM EST
    online reading about you and your friends a couple of days ago when you mentioned your book.  It took me back to when I was a kid living in a Pennsylvania mountain valley.  We'd ride up the mountains on forestry trails, then turn around and coast all the way down.  Kinda rough on my bike, a five speed I'd converted to ten speed; its tires were halfway between thin and fat.  In today's parlance you guys were serious hackers, mod'ers, and Makers.  Fascinating.


    Parent
    Bravo (none / 0) (#105)
    by Dadler on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:42:29 AM EST
    Glad your words are getting their due. Always great to see. Enjoy.

    Parent
    An editorial cartoon: (4.56 / 9) (#19)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:05:32 PM EST
    Luckovich

    Under Bush Cheney standards slavery would be "enhanced employment"

    I see what she did there (5.00 / 4) (#165)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:45:35 PM EST
    Did what I could to bring the rating up.

    Whuzzupwidat?

    Parent

    Hate when a new Open Thread comes up... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 02:59:58 PM EST
    ...just when you put a long post at the end of the last one. So...

    The Sony Hack (link)

    no prosecution! (none / 0) (#2)
    by CityLife on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 03:05:43 PM EST
    I just heard Little Luke Russert (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 05:08:45 PM EST
    explaining that Boner just delayed the vote on the spending bill that guts Dodd Frank and other good stuff because of Warren and Pelosis last minute rangling.

    Which now pits Warren a Pelsoi against Reed and Obama who are pushing for passage.

    The next two years will not be boring.

    Saw Luke myself, and thought (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:01:17 PM EST
    he was quite good.  Also saw smarmy Boehner this morning, then lying Brenner, and Cheney after that.  Tomorrow I'm definitely going boating, and maybe even fishing since the Mackerel are here.  They're easy and fun to catch, but are smelly.  My Scottish friend has heard enough of my TL blog talk.  I'll probably go by boat to Lazy Days, the restaurant that CG put up the beautiful picture of a couple of days ago.  Hold the fort down and I'll check in tomorrow evening, if I'm not too exhausted.  It's tough being an ancient.

    Parent
    He said they need (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 05:15:14 PM EST
    at least 50 dem votes and hoped for 60 or 70.  Which they can't get from the 200ish democrats.  In spite of furious lobbying from the White House because of the power of the Warren/Pelosi faction.  I think maybe some of us commenters are not the only ones fed up with this gutless White House.

    It's pretty clear who's got the juice right now.


    Parent

    Kevin Drum has a good discussion (none / 0) (#13)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:46:56 PM EST
    about the wrangling, give & take, @ his blog on Mother Jones.

    Parent
    I can see why you might like it (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:55:50 PM EST
    i think it krap.  If the republicans are prepared to shut down the government if we don't give them (and their corporate masters) back the ability to gamble with the assurance that we the tax payers will bail them out of the screw the pooch, again, I say let them shut it down and defend doing it.

    Democrats who are not vested in shilling for Obama think this stinks and its a perfect place to make a stand.  I'm one.

    Elizabeth Warren has clearly had enough.  God bless her.

    Parent

    I would just like to point out (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:15:32 PM EST
    clearly

    That IMO Obama better understand what's coming for the next two years and grow a pair or Boehner won't be the only one getting balls in the mail.

    People have had just about enough of his bending over forward to make republicans happy.  If he doesn't get that his role is to stop them and get it quick republicans may not even be his biggest problem in the next couple years.

    I surrender the soapbox.

    Parent

    Loved her "money quote" from today: (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:06:34 PM EST
    "People are frustrated with Congress. Part of the reason, of course, is gridlock. But mostly, it's because they see a Congress that works just fine for the big guys, and won't lift a finger to help them. If big companies can deploy their armies of lobbyists and lawyers to get Congress to vote for special deals which benefit themselves, then we will simply confirm the view of the American people that the system is rigged. This is a democracy. The American people sent us here. Republicans, Democrats and independents, they sent us here to stand up for them, to stand up for taxpayers and protect the economy. Nobody sent us here to stand up for CitiGroup." LINK.

    Parent
    Another from today- (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 08:32:41 PM EST
    on the senate floor

    "Now, there's a lot of talk lately about how Dodd/Frank isn't perfect.  There's a lot of talk coming from Citigroup about how Dodd/Frank isn't perfect.  So let me say this to anyone who is listening ay Citi; I agree with you.  Dodd/Frank isn't perfect.  It should have broken you into pieces."

    I think I may have bought my ticket on the Warren for president train.  Buy the ticket.  Take the ride.

    Parent

    That train's not going anywhere ... (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:09:21 PM EST
    ... if she's not running. Further, I'm not holding my breath until she changes her mind, and I refuse to engage in any speculation about it.

    Because I think if we really and truly respect Sen. Warren, then we should take her at her word and accept her present position on the subject, which she's had to repeat ad nauseum for months on end. Not every elected official aspires to even higher office, and she's probably one of them.

    Besides, I'm still having to listen to people around here grumble and growl about the last messiah, who's still got two years left in his term.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    And it's not just this horrible spending bill (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:03:19 PM EST
    Elizabeth Warren on attack vs. Obama Treasury pick

    But The New Republic, which described the Warren broadside against Weiss as "her boldest yet," said her supporters aren't giving up, and she appears to be playing to the crowds:

    By the end of the speech, you've almost forgotten the name of Antonio Weiss, and are left wondering about the power center Warren is building in the Senate. The Weiss nomination offers a teachable moment, but it fits inside her framework of an economy rigged for elite interests. He was simply the unlucky ex-banker who walked through the revolving door at the wrong time.

    Warren apparently also was banging the anti-Weiss drum at an event Sunday in Boston.

    Read MoreThe most important person in DC in 2015 will be...
    While the main theme was her opposition to Weiss, Warren's future political ambitions seem to be only slightly in the background, sources told Politico, which described the meeting as between the senator and "50 of her top Boston-area donors."

    Warrens socalled underdog status is becoming less under by the day.

    Parent

    Bull (none / 0) (#23)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:25:34 PM EST
    I wish that I could be nicer ...but, I find Kevin Drum somewhat persuasive.  We stand for our positions; but, there really is give & take.  So ... I say again "Bull."  

    Parent
    About the "give and take" (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:32:16 PM EST
    when exactly is it our turn to take?  IMO the only thing we've taken for the last few decades can't be described in polite company.

    Parent
    Uh Howdy (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:22:40 PM EST
    The Repubs passed the bill.....

    It is your beloved Liz that is threatening to shut down the government.

    I wish I could tell her:

    You go girl!!

    Parent

    I have (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:38:37 PM EST
    to say to the GOP if they want this then they need to pass it themselves. Dems should not help them as they refused to vote for anything when they were in the minority. They should get back exactly what they doled out. Let the dems just cool their heels now and let the sweat start dripping of the GOP.

    And it's no surprise that they're done with Obama. After two horrible midterms it must have finally dawned on them that he's going to do nothing for them.

    Parent

    Responding to a comment (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 05:55:47 PM EST
    about the Sony hack I just posted a YouTube clip of Team America featuring a solo by Kim.
    Then I got sucked in, as one does, looking at YouTube clips about North Korea.  Holy hell.  
    I ran across this BBC doc from 2013.  Worth a look.

    That was an underrated movie (none / 0) (#9)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:37:35 PM EST
    Great soundtrack.

    Speaking of underrated movies, have you seen "Safety not guaranteed?  Someone, maybe Scott, talked about it when we were discussing time travel movies. I finally saw it a few nights ago.  

    The movie was inspired by a true story of someone who put an ad in a local newspaper that read...

    "Wanted: Somebody to go back in time with me. This is not a joke. P.O. Box 91 Ocean View, WA 99393. You'll get paid after we get back. Must bring your own weapons. Safety not guaranteed. I have only done this once before."

    Parent

    You mean Team America? (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:41:19 PM EST
    perhaps but it has a cultish following.  As do the guys who made it.  

    Parent
    I Didn't Know it Was a Real Ad... (none / 0) (#134)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:27:53 PM EST
    ...but I did some digging, and according to Wiki:
    In the September/October 1997 issue of Backwoods Home, Senior Editor John Silveira wrote a joke ad as filler for the magazine's classified ad section.

    Check out, 'The Darwin Awards'.  It about an insurance investigator that investigates insurance claims related to the Darwin Awards.  I believe they used actual Darwin stories.  Seriously underrated.

    What were the movies you and Dadler were talking about in the same thread, I meant to write them down ?

    Parent

    Do we need a better definition of rape? (none / 0) (#8)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:28:38 PM EST
    I just watched an interesting discussion on CNN about campus rape and rape claims.  One women, Susan Patton, was suggesting some of what is considered rape is really just "clumsy hookup melodrama".

    I admit, I don't really know the exact definition of rape these days.  What happens if both people are drunk and, days or weeks later, one of them decides because they couldn't remember what happened, it must be rape?

    I'm not convinced there's a "Rape Culture" or an epidemic of rape at college... but I'm curious what other people think?  

    According to a 2011 CDC survey, ... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:13:23 PM EST
    ... one in five American women -- that's 20%! -- responded that they had been a victim of sexual assault. One in four reported that they had been beaten by an intimate partner. And one in six reported having being stalked.

    In a 2007 survey conducted for the U.S. Dept. of Justice, 19% of women in college reported that they had been the victims of an attempted or completed sexual assault, which could be either rape of sexual battery, i.e., groping, unwanted touching, etc.

    Therefore, I would instead ask you, should we take these numbers seriously, and use them as a base point for addressing the issue of sexual violence -- or should we just assume that a significant percentage of those women who responded to these surveys were not being truthful in their answers, and avoid discussing the subject altogether?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    First we need to figure out (none / 0) (#42)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:39:42 PM EST
    what rape and sexual assault is?  There are obvious examples we don't need to discuss but there are other examples involving drugs and alcohol that aren't so obvious.

    Is it rape/SA if someone doesn't remember what happened?
    What if someone is kissed against their will, like one of the Cosby accuses claims?
    What if, initially, the sex is consensual but at some point things go farther than expected?

    This is a more complex issue than most people are willing to admit.

    Parent

    I think you're making the issue ... (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:55:39 PM EST
    ... unnecessarily complicated, and I'm not quite sure why. Speaking for myself only, I'd like men and boys to fully understand that women and girls are to be respected. And I fail to see how your hypothetical questions get us any closer to accomplishing that objective.

    I think the desired goal here is to mitigate the potential for sexual assault to occur and thus minimize the possibility of a rape ever taking place, not to parse the inherent meanings of those terms to the point of incomprehensibility.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Why am I not surprised that the same (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Anne on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:01:23 PM EST
    people who want to quibble about torture now want to do the same thing with rape?

    I hope you realize that it sounds like a very disingenuous way to figure out how far one can go and how much one can do to another person and get away with it.

    And it's pretty nauseating.

    Parent

    Agreed, Anne. (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 11:10:01 PM EST
    It is nauseating. And personally, I'm sorry that I even attempted to respond to McBain's initial comment. In so doing, I only succeeded in putting Wingbat Central on speakerphone.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    IMO (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by sj on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:55:03 AM EST
    This was one of the more successful tr0ll drive-bys.

    Parent
    It certainly was that. (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:27:53 PM EST
    McBain just dangled the piñata and out I came, swinging my bat. And meanwhile, TL's resident FSU  fanboy saw his opportunity to work his favorite paragon of virtue Jameis Winston into the discussion. I learned my lesson.

    Have a wonderful day. :-D

    Parent

    No kidding. (5.00 / 5) (#127)
    by Angel on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 01:17:03 PM EST
    Same person who was posting on the Tamir Rice issue - just couldn't make up his/her mind if the cop was wrong to shoot the kid.  

    McBain is just here to bait people. Unfortunately, he's succeeding in his objective.

    Parent

    Where you talking about me? (none / 0) (#57)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:13:06 PM EST
    I don't believe I've commented on torture.  That's not really a topic I'm interested in.

    I am interested in the rape culture obsession there seems to be in the media.  

    Parent

    What?!? (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:19:07 PM EST
    I am interested in the rape culture obsession there seems to be in the media.

    What is a "rape culture obsession", and what evidence is there that it's "in the media"?

    Parent

    The UVA and Lena Dunham (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:25:24 PM EST
    accusations have been all over TV and the internet. The current "rape culture" is often brought up. It makes it sound like rape is more common today among college kids. I doubt that's true.  

    Parent
    They're being "brought up" ... (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:30:16 PM EST
    ... because they're news.  That's not evidence of a "rape culture obsession".  Neither are your fact-free expressions of doubt about the number of rapes/sexual assault.

    Parent
    Were you refering to my comment... (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:48:51 PM EST
    "It makes it sound like rape is more common today among college kids. I doubt that's true." ?

    My point isn't that there aren't sexual crimes being committed today.  It's that the rate probably hasn't increased from years ago.  

    Do you disagree?  

    Parent

    I have absolutely no idea ... (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 11:08:42 PM EST
    My point isn't that there aren't sexual crimes being committed today.  It's that the rate probably hasn't increased from years ago.  

    ... whether the rate has increased.  On what are you basing this claim?  My point is that these kind of claims based on "feelings" and "beliefs" without any facts/evidence to support these aren't really worth much.  Moreover, attempting to blame the media for an imaginary "rape culture obsession" (also without evidence) is similarly unconvincing and belittle an extremely serious problem.

    Parent

    Where did I doubt the number (2.00 / 1) (#73)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:37:46 PM EST
    of rapes or sexual assaults?  

    Are you confusing me with someone else? I'm not the one with the stats or a strong opinion about the stats.

    Parent

    Nope ... not at all (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:45:46 PM EST
    I'm not convinced there's a "Rape Culture" or an epidemic of rape at college...

    It makes it sound like rape is more common today among college kids. I doubt that's true.  ...

    I am interested in the rape culture obsession there seems to be in the media.

    No idea how you would define an "epidemic" or "more common", or WTH a "rape culture obsession" is in the media, but I was clearly discussing your expressions of doubt about the number of rapes/sexual assaults at college.  I was wondering if you had any actual evidence to support these doubts.

    Parent

    FYI (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 09:37:13 AM EST
    From the Pentagon's report on sexual abuse in the military:
    In an analysis of the final data, the Associated Press found that in terms of sheer numbers, there were many more men who were victims of assault in 2013 than women. "About 6.8 percent of women surveyed said they were assaulted and 1.2 percent of the men," the AP reports. "But there are vastly more men in the military; by the raw numbers, a bit more than 12,000 women said they were assaulted, compared with nearly 14,000 men."  LINK

    Wiki states that fewer than 1 in 10 rapes against men are reported, where as 1 in 7 rapes against women are reported.

    The point, if it were you, I am positive you would know if you were raped.  To me there is no fine line, either she/he was willing participant or they weren't.

    People who argue against the stats, the headlines, the claims, the definition, do not come off looking very good, especially when they have no proof.  And while I believe you are sincere, it's little disturbing that a grown @ss man is seriously going to argue that we need a definition for a word that has been around, and defined, for a long, long time.  With a little Googling you can probably find the legal definition for your state.

    To clear the air, sexual assault defined by the DoJ:

    Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape.


    Parent
    Legal definitions of rape (2.00 / 2) (#102)
    by ragebot on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 09:54:49 AM EST
    There is much debate about the right legal definition of rape.

    Perhaps the most debated issue is the age of consent.  Should it be 15, 16, 17, 18, or some other age.  What about the age differences between the perp and vic.  Most states have laws related to a greater than two year age difference of parties involved resulting in no or different charges.  What about mental defect.  Should some one with an IQ of 60 or below be treated differently than someone with an IQ of 120 and above (feel free to use any numbers you like).  Most of us have experience with someone who has a high IQ and not a lick of common sense.

    Suppose a 14 year old male with an IQ of 40 has sex with a 20 year old female with an IQ of 120.  Is the male capable of consent?

    No one is saying is a 25 year old male has his two 25 year old buddies hold down a 14 year old female and has intercourse that is not rape.

    The problem is where do you draw the line.

    Parent

    Debate ? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:32:12 AM EST
    Who is debating the age of consent ?  

    It varies form state to state, and country to country.  Much like drinking age.

    I understand what you are saying, but adults sleeping with non-adults is a hole nothing can of worms.  Lot of 18 year old boys on the sex offender list because his girlfriend's parents didn't like the relationship.  Same with people who do not have the capacity to make decisions.  I would also add to that mix, kids who lie about their age and adults, namely teachers who have positions of authority.

    My comments and thoughts were all made with the assumption that we were discussing adults that have the mental capacity to consent.

    Parent

    I do not believe this is true: (2.00 / 1) (#115)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:42:15 AM EST
    Lot of 18 year old boys on the sex offender list because his girlfriend's parents didn't like the relationship.

    Although it is often presented as fact on TL.

    Parent
    How About it Happens ? (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:25:29 PM EST
    Yeah, lot is probably the wrong word.  I meant a lot in that they shouldn't be on the list, I did not mean that it's common.

    The point was that even when people are of the age to legally give consent, parents can become part of the equation.

    Parent

    Have you ever looked at an SO list? (2.00 / 1) (#129)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 01:48:03 PM EST
    It ain't pretty. And 18 y/o boys with 16 y/0 girlfriends are far and few between...

    Parent
    of what you wrote.

    Parent
    Where do you draw the line? (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:29:21 PM EST
    How about at your zipper?

    Parent
    Sorry to disturb you Scott (2.00 / 1) (#111)
    by McBain on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:18:14 AM EST
    but I still think there's a gray area when drugs and alcohol are involved. It's also unclear to me how juries tend to vote.

    "To me there is no fine line, either she/he was willing participant or they weren't."

    I respect your opinion but I disagree. I believe, sometimes, people don't remember if they were willing or not. And if both people were drunk, how is one more at fault than the other?

    The goal of my original post wasn't so much to discuss statistics but, rather, to hear legal definitions and opinions.  

    Parent

    The use of drugs and/or alcohol may (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by Anne on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:40:11 AM EST
    provide the accused with a form of defense - "I was so drunk I don't remember what I did to her, or if I did anything at all" - but the use of drugs and/or alcohol by the victim should never - in my opinion - be considered permission to be assaulted/raped/abused.  

    I mean, on what planet does someone having a drink, or even getting drunk, give another person carte blanche to impose themselves, sexually or otherwise, on anyone else?

    If someone is so under the influence that he or she does not remember anything, how can you argue that the victim had the mental capacity to consent to anything?

    More and more, the point of your comments seems to be finding the sweet spot where someone can get away with rape and/or other forms of assault.

    Parent

    I Will Ask Again (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:16:31 PM EST
    Would you know if you were raped ?

    I agree about the drugs and alcohol, but realistically that is start of relationship stuff, and I don't think it's very smart to sleep with someone you barely know when, in all likelihood, you are both wasted.  If she is down with it, guess what she will be there tomorrow.  Having sex because it might be your only chance means you believe she would not consent if sober.

    But more importantly, why would anyone want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to.  That gray area you keep creating isn't going to be any less gray in court.

    Parent

    Response to Scott (4.00 / 1) (#135)
    by McBain on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:28:22 PM EST
    "Would you know if you were raped ?"  

    I'm not sure

    "Having sex because it might be your only chance means you believe she would not consent if sober. But more importantly, why would anyone want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to."

    Human sexuality is very complex.  People do strange things.. have strange fantasies.  What is repulsive to some is a turn on to others.

    "That gray area you keep creating isn't going to be any less gray in court. "

    I'm not an expert on the law but I disagree.  I don't think it is always cut and dry in a court room.  I'd love to hear from any lawyers who have personal experience in this area.

    Parent

    You Got Me... (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:04:50 PM EST
    You start off so reasonable, then divulge into that.

    I would suggest not acting on your sexual fetishes/fantasies first time around, especially if involve scenarios in which consent may be an issue.  I mean seriously, we aren't talking about relationships, where consent is most likely implied, we are talking about someone you don't know well, and acting on fantasies, without asking them ?
    Come on dude, you are making all of us look bad with your idiocy.

    If you can't figure it out by now, I would suggest getting written permission, because you are clearly confused about the words 'consent' and 'rape'.  Then you won't have to worry about imaginary gray areas, that given your responses, are probably where most people draw the line.

    Parent

    Scott, I wasn't talking about my sex life (2.00 / 1) (#152)
    by McBain on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:47:59 PM EST
    my college/party days are long gone.  I was trying to have a discussion about the current crisis we may or may not have on college campuses.  I found what Susan Patton said on CNN to be extremely interesting.  That's what lead to my original post.

    For some reason you and Howdy want to make this about me.  If you and others "look bad" in this thread, it has nothing to do with me. It's your own doing.

    Parent

    And if you think we are the ones (5.00 / 4) (#155)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:01:29 PM EST
    "Looking bad" .......

    I honestly don't even know how to finish that sentence.

    Parent

    Pointing out what seems to be (4.75 / 4) (#154)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:59:56 PM EST
    your complete and utter inability to understand something from  a point of view you do not hold or a place you do not sit  is not "making it about you".

    Parent
    Here are my last words on this subject, ... (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:15:56 PM EST
    McBain: "Human sexuality is very complex. People do strange things[,] have strange fantasies. What is repulsive to some is a turn on to others."

    ... as they were conveyed to me by my mother during my teenaged years:

    "When in doubt, don't."

    Parent

    Bless your mother (none / 0) (#151)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:44:59 PM EST
    That is the same advice I gave my kids.
    Particularly troubling is his previous statement that "sometimes, people don't remember if they were willing or not."
    If someone is impaired by drugs or alcohol, or, say, by a severe developmental disability, dementia, etc., they simply cannot give consent.  I don't care how many times they say "yes," even assuming they have said "yes."  They are not mentally capable of giving any kind of meaningful consent.

    Parent
    Yes, those are obvious examples (2.00 / 2) (#174)
    by McBain on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 06:58:32 PM EST
    but not so obvious is when both people are impaired, which is common in the college party scene.  

    Years ago 20/20 investigated an incident at UC Berkeley where a guy and a girl both got drunk and had sex.  After a week or so the girl decided she didn't like the experience and complained to the school.  No criminal charges where brought but UCB decided to expel the guy because feminist groups protested......  but they didn't expel her.  

    It didn't seem fair that they only punished him.  Eventually, he settled a lawsuit with UCB.

    This was almost 20 years ago but I'm not sure things have changed much? People tend to assume a woman can't consent while drunk but a man can.

    Parent

    Well, yours is an obvious example (5.00 / 4) (#176)
    by nycstray on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 07:29:39 PM EST
    of digging around to find a case to support whatever the f#ck you are trying to say about rape, or lack of rape as the case may be . . .

    I'm guessing you don't have daughters. If you do . . . oh my.

    Parent

    Yes, how about that? (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 07:58:59 PM EST
    He never seems to come up with any meaningful and current statistics.
    I wonder why?
    Not saying he has some kind of agenda, but still.........

    Parent
    No McBain, she is using a subject that has nothing (2.00 / 1) (#139)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:46:08 PM EST
    to do with rape to snark and attack people, such as me, that disagree that enhanced interrogation is torture.

    It's what she does.

    But I gotta admit I can't figure out why you brought the subject up. But, since you did maybe you need some help on the subject. This is what I'm teaching my grandson.

    Do not touch, grab, feel, pinch or rub anyone's private parts. If someone tries it on you leave and tell the first adult you feel comfortable with or use your cellphone and call me, your mom or grandmom. (Since he is now right at 6'0" and a muscular 170 pounds I doubt a single person would try anything.)

    No means no. If you ask a girl to do anything and she says no, the answer is no. Drop it right there.

    Leave sex for marriage. But, in ALL events, you should never have sex with a girl who cannot knowingly and willingly participate  in the act.

    Hope this helps.

    Parent

    If you got to drink to remember (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:46:25 PM EST
    and realized were penetrated would you consider it rape?

    Parent
    There are btw (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:48:45 PM EST
    several ways you might "realize" this after the fact.

    Parent
    It's a really simple question (none / 0) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:57:50 PM EST
    i would be very interested in you thoughts

    Parent
    Some folks can't consent (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:12:32 PM EST
    As an example if you are slipped a date rape drug, wake up the next day and find ripped clothes, body fluids, and superficial wounds, go a hospital where a rape kit is administrated and tox screen is performed with the results indicating brutal penetration with abrasions on the vagina walls and swabs find body fluids and the tox screen shows a date rape drug I would claim there is a case of rape.

    Parent
    Another thing (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:18:52 PM EST
    it can be way simpler than that.  Alcohol will do it.  In fact this is how many men first experience gay sex.  And honestly some the choose not to remember.

    But that's clouding the issue.  The question is very simple.  If you passed out drunk and realized the next day you had been porked would you consider it rape.  Happens all the time actually.  Simple question.

    Parent

    Sweet dreams are made of this (1.00 / 1) (#65)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:27:58 PM EST
    Capt you may need to listen to Annie Lenox

    Some of them want to use you
    Some of them want to get used by you
    Some of them want to abuse you
    Some of them want to be abused.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMFqkcPYcg

    I would suspect if some won wants to get used they would not consider it rape.

    Parent

    Thank you again (none / 0) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:29:23 PM EST
    but I'm asking him.

    Parent
    Sorry guys (none / 0) (#68)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:30:12 PM EST
    I messed up on the link to the Eurythmics

    Parent
    That's not the only thing that's messed up. (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 11:18:00 PM EST
    Thank you (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:15:07 PM EST
    but I was asking him.  Him personally.

    Parent
    It doesn't really apply to me Howdy (none / 0) (#63)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:22:14 PM EST
    I don't drink nor do I get people drunk in order to have sex.

    In general, I think the legal definition says it would be rape.  But if someone chose to get drunk, I don't see a jury saying it was rape.

    Parent

    So just to be clear (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:28:24 PM EST
    since you don't drink lets just, fir the sake of a thought experiment, say this one time you did for whatever reason.  

    Or I will make it easier for you, you have some new medication and you pass out and you are "known carnally" which a jury might well consider being on drugs.  Would it be rape?

     

    Parent

    Like I said (none / 0) (#70)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:34:54 PM EST
    I believe, legally, it would be rape but I'm not sure a jury would vote to convict.  

    Parent
    Once more with feeling (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:36:42 PM EST
    WOULD YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO HAVE BEEN RAPED.

    Parent
    I'm going to bed to watch a movie now (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:50:06 PM EST
    but I would say the "pregnant" pause answers the question.

    Of course you phuckng would.


    Parent

    Problem with hypothetical (none / 0) (#72)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:37:15 PM EST
    Capt did you see my link to the VC thread.  If a wife passed out after drinking or meds and the husband penetrated her it would be possible to make a case for rape.  Problem is how would anyone know?  The wife may well be OK with it, on the other hand the wife may well not be OK with it.

    Same goes for boyfriend/girlfriend or gay couples.  Maybe the penetrated partner is OK, maybe not.  Without additional facts as to how the penetrated partner feels.  As Annie Lenox said "some people want to be used".

    Parent

    Could you please stop trying to run interference (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:39:46 PM EST
    I honestly don't at this moment care what you think and I'm not talking to you.

    Parent
    I've read these comments about 6 times, (5.00 / 6) (#97)
    by Anne on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 08:27:35 AM EST
    trying to formulate a response that adequately expresses what I'm feeling and thinking.

    Okay, so I'm just going to write what's coming to mind, and it may be in no particular order:

    1.    Why do we need a new/better definition of rape?  Are you looking for loopholes, some way that one person can impose himself sexually on another without consequence?  

    2.     Do we still not really not know what rape is?  Do we still not understand the difference between a forced act and a consensual one?  Do we still not understand that if you  penetrate someone's vagina or anus without her or his consent that's rape?  Do we still not get that an unconscious person cannot consent to anything?  Do we still not get that a person who is conscious, but drunk or drugged does not have the mental capacity to consent to being penetrated?

    3.    Why are we quibbling over statistics?  Does a statistic make someone any more or less of a victim of a crime?

    4.    Why do people still want to find some way to blame the person who is the object of an unwanted sexual act?  Does failing to lock your house or your apartment  or your car make you any less a victim of burglary or theft?  Is it not still your house or your car, and do you not still  have an expectation that you're the one who gets to decide who is and isn't allowed in?   Does being alone in a parking garage make you responsible for being mugged?  Does having your wallet in your back pocket make it your fault someone took it?  

    5.    That an act of sexual violence may not be deemed to fit the legal definition of rape or assault, or the fact that someone may be legally acquitted of rape/assault, does not mean nothing happened.  If someone is acquitted of murder, the victim is still dead.   Darren Wilson was not indicted for murder, but Michael Brown is still dead, his family still grieves.  

    6.    If you have sons, I hope you can teach them that forcing themselves on women is an act of violence, not sex.   I hope you teach them that women are not territory to be staked out, or conquered.  We are not objects or property.  Violating someone while he or she is unconscious is disgusting.   I hope you tell them to ask themselves who would be proud of them for what they are about to do.

    7.    If you have daughters, I hope you can teach them that it is wrong to punish someone by falsely accusing them of a crime.

    Parent

    Anne (2.00 / 3) (#100)
    by ragebot on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 09:43:13 AM EST
    There is a reason statistics are important.  If 20% of females are raped most folks would think rape is a serious problem.  If .06% of females are raped most folks would think it is a less serious problem.  Assuming one does not have an agenda how do you determine which group to believe.

    Assuming you want to decrease the number of rapes how do you select the best method to do it unless you have a good way to measure if the number of rapes is going up or down.

    Some research does point to rape not being a sex crime, but rather an act of asserting dominance.  On the other hand I suspect some rape is more about sexual gratification.  This is important because a program aimed at folks trying to assert dominance would not be effective in changing the behavior of those out for sexual gratification, and vice versa.

    Until the motivation for rape is known (is it dominance, sexual gratification, frat initiation, or a host of other motives how do you design a program to change the motivation.  Just as important how do you measure the success of the program.

    Parent

    Here's what you need to do: (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by Anne on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:52:43 AM EST
    you need to stop the  utter idiocy of posting comments that involve phrases like, "assuming you want to decrease the number of rapes," and the stupidity of suggesting that it is statistics that determine whether rape is a serious problem.   "Most folks" understand that anytime someone is raped it's a serious problem; whether the victim is one of 2,000 or one of 200,000 doesn't change the seriousness of rape.

    Oh, why am I wasting my time with you?  Perhaps your intentions are good, but between the weird posts that seem to be about finding ways to get away with rape, and the ones that still want to find a way to blame the victim, all I can say is: please stop writing: about this subject.  


    Parent

    "frat initiations?" Really? (none / 0) (#101)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 09:49:07 AM EST
    How about lawyer's state bar initiations?

    Parent
    The recent Rolling Stone (none / 0) (#123)
    by ragebot on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:39:38 PM EST
    article claimed the rape described there was a frat initiation.  Of course since the Rolling Stone article has been largely discredited maybe the part about frat initiation being true should be discredited.

    However the UVA admins seemed to think the claim of raping a drunk female was part of some frat initiations.

    Parent

    You don't have to drink (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:47:36 PM EST
    to be drugged. It can be put in your coffee. Think on that one for a bit . . .

    Parent
    If you're asking about me, personally (none / 0) (#54)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:07:26 PM EST
    it doesn't really apply.  In general, I don't know the answer.  

    Parent
    Excuse me? (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:09:48 PM EST
    you don't have a rectum?  I don't understand.

    Parent
    What is attempted rape (none / 0) (#43)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:46:12 PM EST
    Unwanted touching, even if it is to breast, hips, or vagina area does not meet the legal definition of rape, but there are others charges that could be brought.  In most jurisdictions penetration is required for a rape charge.  Grabbing a cup of soda with a lid and straw someone is drinking and pushing it upward in the mouth would meet the definition of rape, no different than using a broom stick for anal penetration.  But bringing charges in the first case is unlikely and almost assured in the second case.

    The study you cite gets to the twenty percent figure by including lots of acts that don't meet the legal definition of rape.  Not saying rape is not a serious issue, just that monkeying up the numbers is not how I would try and address that issue.

    Parent

    I think I already pointed that out, ... (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:57:29 PM EST
    ... when I noted that for purposes of the 2007 survey, the term "sexual assault" included both the act of rape and the act of sexual battery, which could be groping, fondling, etc.

    Sexual assault is sexual assault. 20% of women have reported that they've been its victim, in one form or another. I consider it important to look at the overall phenomenon of sexual assault not just from a legal standpoint, but also from a sociological perspective as well.

    I believe that the key to reducing overall instances of sexual assault is to earnestly convey to men and boys the importance of respecting women and girls as fellow human beings, and not merely seeing them as physical objects to be used for their immediate gratification.

    To be sure, our state legislatures can enact enhanced penalties for sexual assault, etc., but that's really only addressing the issue from the standpoint of cause and effect by attempting to reinforce one's fear of punishment if caught.

    And in so doing, are we warning potential violators to not commit rape or sexual battery -- or telling them to not get caught doing it? Our answer to that question is entirely contingent upon the mindset of the message's recipient.

    So in that regard, the law can only go so far in deterring those males who would commit rape or sexual battery upon females, because the law's primary effect is penalty and punishment, not education and ethics.

    Therefore, if our goal here is to reduce the overall occurrence of sexual assault, then I fail to see why we would seek to parse ad nauseum the inherent meaning of that term's various component parts in our public discussions, except perhaps as a means to either: (a) diminish the stature of those women who would offer such accusations, whether in public or in private; or (b) minimize and / or dismiss other people's concerns about the matter, as well as perhaps our own.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald (none / 0) (#89)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 11:43:46 PM EST
    I doubt anyone would object to the goals you post.  Reducing unwanted sexual attention is admirable.  As a rule when one sets goals the next step is to define objectives to reach these goals and criteria to measure how well you are progressing toward your objectives.

    This is why I am concerned about the real numbers and worry they are being monkeyed up.  Until we know the real numbers how can we know what the criteria we are measuring means.

    While rape statistics are questionable this wiki link indicates from 1973 to 2003 rapes per 1,000 people declined by an order of magnitude according the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

    As I am sure you know the 20% number has been questioned and it does seem to be at odds with the official government statistics I linked to.

    I am not trying to defend either study, just pointing out that with out accurate numbers it is not easy to determine if one is getting closer to their goals.

    You mention the importance of teaching men/boys to respect women.  While I agree with you about this you fail to present any hard statistical evidence that this teaching would do anything to reach the goal of reducing sexual assault.  Maybe something like castration would be a better solution (not saying I agree, just that until we know the real numbers and how different solutions change them we are just shooting in the dark.

    Parent

    Rape and sexual assault are ... (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 06:53:59 AM EST
    ..."unwanted sexual attention", now?

    Oy.

    And the 20% number has been "questioned" (as conservatives like Christina Hoff Sommers are bound to do), but they've also been backed up by specific studies.  For example, the DOJ study found 1.7% were raped and 1.1% were victims of attempted rape, using specific behavioral-specific questions that cover the legal elements of rape.  This was in a time period of 6 months, which means that this number climbs to between 1/5 and 1/4 of college women during the course of their college period.

    BTW - In terms of your wiki link, you didn't point out the contradiction.  Your 1973 to 2003 number isn't addressing the number of rapes/sexual assaults among college women, and in your rush to cite government statistics to support your claim of fewer rapes, you forgot a few critical points directly adjacent to the chart.

    According to the American Medical Association (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime... The majority of rapes in the United States go unreported.


    Parent
    The point of my post (none / 0) (#96)
    by ragebot on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 07:58:57 AM EST
    was that rape statistics are not reliable and that until we get more accurate statistics assessing how programs to reduce rape/related crimes are working is a tall order.  When I see one side say 20% is right and another side say .6% is right figuring out which side to believe is not easy; especially since both sides seem to have an agenda.  

    From a legal standpoint how do you think a judge would rule on which set of conflicting statistics is the best evidence.

    Parent

    No idea (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:24:25 AM EST
    Not that it's even relevant, since we're not in a courtroom.

    More importantly, it's an apples to oranges comparison.  You're citing annual rates of reported rapes (not including sexual assaults) for all women (.6%), as compared to all rapes/sexual assaults of women during their entire term in college or during their lifetimes.  Since the vast majority of raoes and sexual assaults are never reported, those number are much lower.  Not to mention the fact that they're only looking at rates for a single year, not among women during their lifetimes or college term.

    But you're right about the agenda ...

    Parent

    I've clearly wasted my time with you. Finding some way to excuse the behavior of your favorite quarterback seems to be more important to you, than really trying to understand the core issue.

    Have a nice day.

    Parent

    That stat is bogus (none / 0) (#87)
    by Slado on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 11:22:22 PM EST
    Link

    It is so inflated that common sense should tell us that it can't even be possible.   20% of college girls will be sexually assaulted?   Nobody would go to college anymore?

    You are more likely as a women to be raped if you don't go to college.

    Rape and casual sex for me are serious issues for our society and specifically young people but it seems obviuos that claims of misconduct on college campuses is being way overblown on and the reactions by campuses to this "epidemic" are terrible abuses of personal liberty.

    Parent

    "Bogus" (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 06:59:23 AM EST
    Because an opinion piece in USA today (citing Christina Hoff Sommers) says so?

    Heh.

    BTW - The BJS numbers only deal with reported rapes.  Given that rape/sexual assault is the most underreported crime in the United States, these numbers don't mean Donald's figures are "bogus".

    Parent

    What Yman said. (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:44:02 PM EST
    Only about 15% of sexual assault victims report the crime to the authorities. That does not therefore mean that 85% of the time, it really didn't happen.

    Parent
    So you honestly believe (none / 0) (#189)
    by Slado on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:02:24 PM EST
    Every college freshman women has a 20% chance of being sexually assaulted.   1 in 5?

    If that's true my little girl isn't going to college.   She can study at Pheonix University online.

    Sorry that study is highly questionable and Yman there are many more links that you can find via Google that say so.

    I don't understand the need to use inflated rhetoric to discus what we all know is a serious issue.   One rape is too many.

    For me we should start with the culture of casual sex, excessive drinking and a general disregard of female value when it comes to sex by young men on these campuses.   These things create the toxic environment that allows young women to be put into these terrible situations where their no is not given its proper meaning and all the other signals that shouldn't matter point towards unwanted sexual advances.

    If we make it all about the boys and don't take on all the things that lead to these crimes we aren't going to stop it and we also shouldn't trample the rights of men collectively to not really solve the problem.  To me the articles I linked discuss this fairly.


    Parent

    Yup, I think that's pretty close to true (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by nycstray on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:13:46 PM EST
    and your little girl's chances aren't much better if she  chooses to go military. If she survives college and/or the military, JOY! she gets to move on to the workplace and deal with sexual harassment and/or discrimination!

     

    Parent

    "Inflated rhetoric"? Really? (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 04:57:51 AM EST
    The only one who's currently engaging in rhetorical games here is you, Slado. I'm really very sorry that we're apparently not telling you, McBain and Ragebot what you guys want to hear, but the three of you already seem to be doing a pretty good job of that yourselves.

    No, I don't "seriously believe that every college freshman woman has a 20% chance of being sexually assaulted" -- because that's NOT what the 2007 survey for the U.S. Dept. of Justice survey says.

    Rather, the survey noted that 19% of women reported that they had been a victim of an attempted or completed sexual assault at some point while they were in college. That's NOT the same thing.

    The Campus Sexual Assault Survey was conducted for the DOJ over a 36-month period between January 2005 and December 2007. A total of 5,446 undergraduate women between the ages of 18-25 participated in this survey as part of a random sample.

    Of that number, 1,073 women (19%) reported having experienced an attempted or completed sexual assault since entering college. 12.6% experienced attempted sexual assault, and 13.7% experienced actual sexual assault, with some overlap between the two. Further, of the 1,402 seniors surveyed, 287 of them (19%) reported having experienced sexual assault.

    This particular survey was undertaken in part because two earlier surveys conducted during the 1990s showed a much higher incidence of rape / sexual assault of almost 25%, a figure which researchers and analysts later concluded was likely too high.

    If you want to understand in detail the difference between what this survey actually says and what you think it means, then I suggest that you enroll in a class on statistics and probabilities. But simply put, the statistics do not imply that a female college freshman therefore faces a 20% chance of being assaulted.

    That said, these statistics should nevertheless be cited by parents, educators, coaches and other influential adults as a means to convey to graduating high school seniors and incoming college freshmen the need to take this particular issue very seriously, and further learn what they can do both personally and collectively to minimize the possibility that they and their friends might otherwise be victimized in such a debased manner.

    That means, as you noted, emphasizing the necessity for self-discipline and other forms of behavioral modification on the part of young women and young men entering college as freshmen, who are likely to find themselves on their own in non-supervised or minimally proctored settings for the very first time in their lives.

    And that's why it's so important for us to instill in our children, grandchildren and other young charges the requisite skills and experiences which they will need as they go forward, in order to make responsible choices and avoid uncalculated risk-taking in their daily lives.

    I'm going to bed. Good night.

    Parent

    Links?!? - OMG! (5.00 / 2) (#202)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 09:04:02 AM EST
    Sorry that study is highly questionable and Yman there are many more links that you can find via Google that say so.

    No way!  You can find "many links" via Google that say it is "highly questionable"?  Pffftttt.  You can also find "many links" that question whether evolution is real, but you need to look at the credibility of any contrary evidence.  A link to Glenn Kessler saying he is "not making a ruling at this time" (as opposed to calling it "highly questionable")?  Not so persuasive.


    Every college freshman women has a 20% chance of being sexually assaulted.   1 in 5?

    If that's true my little girl isn't going to college.   She can study at Pheonix University online.

    Why?  You think her chances are less if she's NOT in college?  Personally, I prefer to base my opinions and decisions on  ... ya know ...

    ... actual evidence.

    Parent

    Washington Post calls study into question (none / 0) (#192)
    by Slado on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:24:50 PM EST
    Link

    One rape is too many but to solve this problem we need to discuss the culture of casual sex, drinking and other social issues that result in young men not responding as they should to the word, No.

    We also shouldn't trample over the lives of young men to solve the problem.   If all we do is focus on the boys after its happened and not the greater problem we won't prevent anything.

    Parent

    The Post says nothing of the kind, Slado. (none / 0) (#197)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 05:09:41 AM EST
    Rather, it cautions us to not read more into the survey's findings than what's being presented, given the acknowledged limits of its sampling. The same advice can be offered when analyzing the results of any survey, regardless of topic:

    "We are not going to make a ruling at this time, pending additional information. As an interesting article from the University of Minnesota-Duluth newspaper makes clear, sexual violence is too rarely reported. So the White House should be applauded for calling attention to this issue." (Emphasis is mine.)

    Aloha.

    Parent

    This is why I have avoided TL in the past few days (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by ZtoA on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:47:05 AM EST
    too many intelligent informed, yet often nonsense comments. But actually great discussion.

    50% of my close female friends have been raped. So that means females who were girls in the 50s, 60s and 70s. None reported or even considered it. Most would not respond to a survey. All of us raised our daughters (when we had them) to be acutely aware of dangers - from dates to parking lots. I was, personally attacked in a parking lot and almost raped, but luck was with me - just got a cut on my face while I was being punched hard in the head/face and landed thru an open car door and onto a seat in a moving car driven by a friend and she drove us safely away (I was 22 at the time). We laughed about our "good luck". I never even considered 'reporting' it - what would I have said? "Some really huge drunk guy came up behind me and shoved some dollar bills in my face and then I elbowed him hard in his huge gut, but he was so drunk he did not notice and then tried to grab me and also punched me so that I flew into an open car door and my friend drove us away"? This was in New Orleans in the 70s. The cops would have laughed their A$$es off at "my" report. I was already feeling lucky, no need to put myself in harms way.

    I also know that females can "rape" males with false accusations (as happened to the son of a good friend of mine). But both are illegal. Supposedly. The female 'rape' of males is much easier to prove legally. "Rape" of females and males by objects and penises is so much more difficult to charge, enforce and prosecute under our laws. So that results in sort of encouraging it - or at least not stopping it.

    Parent

    Maybe it's like the Potter Stewart (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 06:39:04 PM EST
    quote about porn-

    I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it,


    Parent
    Do we need a better definition of is (none / 0) (#41)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:29:20 PM EST
    There are legal definitions of what rape is, which vary a little state to state.  Same goes for the the legal definitions of what evidence is, in fact a significant part of law school is taking some class called evidence.

    I hate to beat a dead horse but in the high profile case of the FSU QB Jamies Winston's case a rape kit was administered, along with a tox screen, a few hours after the incident.  The rape kit results showed no physical injury presenting and no trauma to the vagina or anus walls.  The accuser's initial description did not fit Winston and her friends and phone records confirmed after she and Winston danced at a local club and Winston asked for her phone number she said the club noise was so loud she would text it to him, something she did.  After initially saying she was hit in the head, knocked out, and then raped (something contradicted by the rape kit results) she changed her story to being slipped a rape drug, something contradicted by the tox screen.  Given all of this it is easy to see why the state attorney declined to bring charger, citing lack of evidence to win the case in open court.

    In this case there simply was not enough evidence to support a legal charge of rape.  Never the less a lot of media and talking heads still opine the rape did happen, even if it can not be proved in court.

    So maybe to answer your question I would pose another question, are you talking about the legal definition of rape (and evidence) or what I will call the media/whatever definition of rape?

    Parent

    In terms of definitions (none / 0) (#45)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:47:56 PM EST
     I'd like to know these....

    - Legal
    - Media/whatever
    - What jurors usually think it is (how they vote)
    - What college students think it is

    Parent

    Legal definition of rape (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:04:43 PM EST
    varies a little from state to state but requires penetration.  I don't have the numbers but vagina, mouth, and anal penetration in that order are the most common places, sometimes nostrils or ear canals can be included especially if the penis is used to try and penetrate with the case being stronger if there is ejaculation that penetrates.  Objects like beer bottles, broom sticks, fingers, penis, or other objects can be used in penetrating.

    The penetration must be without consent and some classes of people are deemed unable to consent, usually due to age or infirmity.  Saying no implies no consent, but fighting, scratching,or other actions may suffice.  Even if no is not uttered and there is no fighting a threat (like a knife to the throat) can result in a rape charge.  I may have left some stuff out, but it should be clear that legal definitions do differ a little, stuff like age of consent probably varying the most.

    As for the media the RW and the LW media probably have different definitions, same for juries.

    Gotta say some folks would say your last question is assuming facts not in evidence, that college students think.

    Parent

    "stuff like age of consent" (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:43:35 PM EST
    Is 10 y/o old enough to consent?

    Rhetorical question. I just realized from reading your comment that what the Good Humor Ice Cream guy (who was approx 25 at the time) did to me when I was in 4th grade was rape.

    OK, I'll stop sharing now...

    Parent

    Hard cases make hard law (none / 0) (#62)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:20:19 PM EST
    VC has an interesting thread about a 78 year old guy who had sex with his wife who has alzheimers and was charged with rape

    Link

    Just when you think you have heard it all.

    Parent

    Forgot to mention (none / 0) (#75)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:42:46 PM EST
    Women have been convicted of raping men, even if it was conventional penis/vagina not the male anally raped.  Usually this requires the male is some how not able to consent due to age or infirmity.

    Parent
    That's okay. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 11:14:46 PM EST
    I figured that it was only a matter of time before you'd seek to bring it up, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the original question.

    Parent
    ... which on the motion picture side also serve as a potential sneak preview of the 2014 Academy Award nominations:

    Best Motion Picture (Drama):

    • Boyhood
    • Foxcatcher
    • The Imitation Game
    • Selma
    • The Theory of Everything

    Best Motion Picture (Musical / Comedy):
    • Into the Woods
    • Birdman
    • The Grand Budapest Hotel
    • St. Vincent
    • Pride

    Best Director of a Motion Picture:
    • Richard Linklater, Boyhood
    • Ava DuVernay, Selma
    • Wes Anderson, The Grand Budapest Hotel
    • Alejandro González Iñárritu, Birdman
    • David Fincher, Gone Girl

    Best Actress in a Motion Picture (Drama):
    • Julianne Moore, Still Alice
    • Rosamund Pike, Gone Girl
    • Reese Witherspoon, Wild
    • Felicity Jones, The Theory of Everything
    • Jennifer Aniston, Cake

    Best Actress in a Motion Picture (Musical / Comedy):
    • Julianne Moore, Map to the Stars
    • Amy Adams, Big Eyes
    • Emily Blunt, Into the Woods
    • Helen Mirren, The Hundred Foot Journey
    • Quvenzhané Wallis, Annie

    Best Supporting Actress in a Motion Picture:
    • Jessica Chastain, A Most Violent Year
    • Keira Knightly, The Imitation Game
    • Meryl Streep, Into the Woods
    • Emma Stone, Birdman
    • Patricia Arquette, Boyhood

    Best Actor in a Motion Picture (Drama):
    • Eddie Redmayne, The Theory of Everything
    • Steve Carrell, Foxcatcher
    • Benedict Cumberbatch, The Imitation Game
    • David Oyewolo, Selma
    • Jake Gyllenhaal, Nightcrawler

    Best Actor in a Motion Picture (Musical / Comedy):
    • Michael Keaton, Birdman
    • Bill Murray, St. Vincent
    • Ralph Fiennes, The Grand Budapest Hotel
    • Christoph Waltz, Big Eyes
    • Joaquin Phoenix, Inherent Vice

    Best Supporting Actor in a Motion Picture:
    • Robert Duvall, The Judge
    • J.K. Simmons, Whiplash
    • Mark Ruffalo, Foxcatcher
    • Edward Norton, Birdman
    • Ethan Hawke, Boyhood

    The Los Angeles Times has the latest run-down on perceived snubs and surprises in today's announcement.

    Personally, my eyebrows were raised upon noting Jennifer Aniston's nomination as best actress in a motion picture drama. But then, I've yet to see Cake, for which she's been receiving glowing reviews for her performance, so I reserve judgment. For their part, critics are expressing surprise that both Angelina Jolie's Unbroken and Clint Eastwood's American Sniper were completely shut out of this nominations.

    If you're also interested in the Golden Globes' TV nominations, as well as nominations in the technical categories, CLICK HERE.

    Aloha.

    Nice to see Foxcatcher (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:10:16 PM EST
    getting credit.  I really want to see The 100 Foot Journey.  And I have heard nothing but good things about Birdman.

    Parent
    I would also urge you and everyone else ... (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:07:14 PM EST
    ... to see Richard Linklater's "Boyhood," when it makes the rounds again at your friendly neighborhood multiplex after it receives multiple Oscar nominations next month, as expected. This remarkable coming of age story was filmed throughout the state of Texas for several weeks at a time each summer over a period of twelve consecutive years from 2002 to 2013, using the same cast.

    I found it mesmerizing to watch child actors Ellar Coltraine and Lorelei Linklater (the director's daughter) grow from small kids into young adults during the course of the film's 2 hr. 45 min. running time, while adult actors Patricia Arquette and Ethan Hawke (who play their divorced parents) age gracefully into middle age.

    And don't let the movie's length scare you off. The storyline just draws right you in from the start and flows effortlessly; these are characters you'll soon come to care about. Frankly, I've seen some 90 min. films that were way longer than "Boyhood."

    I've since heard some talk from media film critics that "Boyhood" should be considered the prospective frontrunner in this year's race for Oscar glory, with Arquette the prohibitive favorite for best supporting actress honors. We'll have to see about that, but IMHO both are definitely very strong contenders in their respective categories.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I am hesitant to see it as it may (none / 0) (#147)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:16:04 PM EST
    not live up to my high expectations since I am a devotee of Michael Apted's wonderful "Seven Up" series of films.

    Parent
    See it! It's fabulous. (none / 0) (#157)
    by Angel on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:24:55 PM EST
    I met Rickard Linklater once, he was really sweet to me. But that isn't why I like the movie.  He's just a great writer, love almost everything he's done.

    Parent
    Waking Life (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:33:11 PM EST
    Oh, I enjoy his movies. (none / 0) (#161)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:34:13 PM EST
    Especially "Slacker."

    Parent
    As much as I like "Boyhood," ... (none / 0) (#163)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:44:54 PM EST
    ... my favorite Linklater movie remains his 1993 cult classic "Dazed and Confused," which tells the story of a group of rowdy teens on the last day of school in June 1976. I totally related to both the film and its characters, since I was in 9th grade in 1976 and still remember all these guys. It was like being transported back in time, if only for a little while.

    Parent
    Two entirely different things, altogether. (none / 0) (#160)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:33:15 PM EST
    Michael Apted's "Seven Up" series is documentarian in its style and presentation, and tracks the lives of real people as they've grown and aged over the decades.

    "Boyhood" is entirely fictional, and its 12-year story arc is presented contemporaneously to the audience as straight-up drama. And there are no characters being interviewed at intervals on-camera, as one might see in a reality TV series.

    Most directors will film their movies over the course of a few months, and as the story's childhood characters get older, different actors are often cast to show the characters at different stages of life.

    But in this instance, Richard Linklater chose to film "Boyhood" over 12 consecutive years, which allows the audience to also see the actors themselves at different periods of their lives, not just the characters they play.

    At the beginning of the film, we see Patricia Arquette as a harried young mother of a 9-year-old daughter and 6-year-old son. Toward the end, as she prepares to send her now 18-year-old boy off to college, we find her in the full flower of middle age with no special make-up needed for the effect, and we watch her burst into tears upon the sudden realization that once her son departs that afternoon, an important chapter of her own life will also be coming to a close.

    Given that I've also noted that it's a coming of age story, I hardly think I'm giving the plot away with that paragraph. :-)

    Therefore, I strongly recommend that you see "Boyhood," because I really think that you in particular might enjoy and appreciate Linklater's work -- with the only admonition being that you further resist the urge to compare the film with Apted's own remarkable series of documentaries.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    100ft Journey (none / 0) (#47)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:50:07 PM EST
    Loved the book. Still need to see the movie, but the book was a great read for me.

    Parent
    It is a sweet movie, but (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by caseyOR on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 09:10:58 PM EST
    while I would happily watch Helen Mirren mow the lawn, I do not think her performance is award worthy. I was surprised to see her name on the list.

    The movie is beautifully shot. And the food, OMG, the food. Total food pron.

    Parent

    It's on PPV right now (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 09:52:27 PM EST
    i might do it tomorrow.

    Parent
    St. Vincent is the only one (none / 0) (#22)
    by MO Blue on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:25:11 PM EST
    I've seen. IMO it was less of a comedy than what I expected.

    I'm not as knowledgeable about films as others on the blog but I did like this film. IMO Murray's performance was different than his standard fare.

    I would be interested in what the more enlightened critics here thought about the film.


    Parent

    Not exactly an enlighten critic (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:28:49 PM EST
    but I loved it.  But I love both the leads.  

    Parent
    Actually you were one of the (none / 0) (#27)
    by MO Blue on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:42:40 PM EST
    people who I was thinking of when I referred to enlightened critics. Since you have worked in areas having to do special effects or graphics (probably have misstated this somewhat, but you get the idea), you can judge those elements that I just see as part of the over all effect.

    I know others have a background in film or other related fields so I find the various views interesting even when the I miss some of the nuances.

    Parent

    Well thanks (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 07:58:56 PM EST
    i really did love it.  I think both Murray and McCarthy are underrated actors. Groundhog Day is one of my all time favorite movies.

    But just when you think I make sense I go nuts for Dawn of the Planet of the Apes like I did in the last thread.  I have to do it again (heh).  It's an amazing movie.  I really really think it's one of the best movies I've seen in years.  It's not at all what you (or at least I) expect.  The effects are astonishing.  I will be very surprised if it doesn't get a nomination for effects.  But it's so much more.  The director Matt Reeves has done some other really good stuff.  He did the cultish and underrated Cloverfield.  Then he did one of the only remakes, Let Me In, I can think of that IMO was better than the Swedish original which I loved, Let The Right One In.  Enough gushing.  I think I will watch it again since it's an all day purchase.

    Parent

    Bill Murray's interview on TCM, by (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 03:03:33 PM EST
    Elvis Mitchell, Under the Influence, was very interesting.  Murray is a complex guy. The first Murray movie I remember him jumping off the SNL skit-ship with was him playing a mobster club owner against Robert De Niro, who also played deep in the non stereotypical, as a sorta wimpy CSI technician.

    I don't really know who Elvis Mitchell is but he lets his guests run out the line.  I've watched many of his interviews with people like Joan Allen, Quentin Tarantino, Laurence Fishburne, etc..  The best part is listening to them talk about the movies they love.

    Parent

    He is a movie critic who (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 07:41:03 PM EST
    Was on NPR before they became Nice Polite Republicans, was with the NY Times, and, to put it mildly, has has some intersting twists and turns in his career, just Google him with the word controversy, and you'll see what I mean.  

    Parent
    Okay, I love that phrase (5.00 / 4) (#179)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 08:05:01 PM EST
    for NPR.  "Nice Polite Republicans."
    Bwahaha!

    Parent
    I remember (5.00 / 4) (#182)
    by lentinel on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 09:07:25 PM EST
    listening to NPR (WNYC) in New York City some years ago.
    It had interesting, original and some definitely left-leaning programming and commentary.

    One day some president or something of the company comes on to announce that they would be taking funding from corporations - but not to worry.

    Everything would be the same - they'd just run some ad before and after the program....

    And, as Mordiggian 88 says, in a twinkling of an eye and the jingle of the cash register - they became polite republicans.

    Parent

    Thanks, Mordiggian. A bit of perspective, in (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 09:32:05 PM EST
    New York Magazine, re his departure from the NYTimes.  

    Parent
    I liked "St. Vincent" a lot. (none / 0) (#35)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 08:45:22 PM EST
    I don't know that I'd go so far as to bestow that film with Oscar glory, but I was thoroughly entertained by it, and would definitely recommend it to others. I thought that both Bill Murray and Melissa McCarthy did a marvelous job.

    Of the films that were nominated today for best picture in either category, I've seen "The Grand Budapest Hotel," "Boyhood," "Foxcatcher," and "The Theory of Everything." All four have something to recommend them, although I did find "The Theory of Everything" to be both a somewhat conventional biography and borderline schmaltzy. And from my POV, "Theory" also failed to adequately convey to those audience members who may not know of Stephen Hawking, exactly why he is so renowned in scientific circles.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Bill Murray (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:56:40 PM EST
    seems to have a gift for making movies different people react to differently.  I loved Lost in Translation and I've talked to reasonable people who hated it.  Same with Razors Edge.

    I think my all time favorite Murray role would be Bunny Breckenridge in Ed Wood.

    Parent

    Absolutely LOVED Lost in Translation. (none / 0) (#193)
    by Angel on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:40:47 PM EST
    I've seen it many times and it never gets old.

    Parent
    Not at all an enlightened critic, (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:15:09 PM EST
    but while the Mrs. SUO and I did like the film, it was, in the main, pretty predictable.

    For some such predictability is like recognizing an old friend, for others it's "been there, done that."

    For me, his likability makes it work, though not to the level of a Golden Globe winner.

    Parent

    I also do not think that (none / 0) (#78)
    by MO Blue on Thu Dec 11, 2014 at 10:46:03 PM EST
    It rises to the level of winning a Golden Globe.

    OTOH, i haven't seen any of the other films so I don't know how high they are putting the bar this year.

    Parent

    Don't disagree (none / 0) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:45:01 PM EST
    it was another really good year for film

    Parent
    Since Unbroken and American Sniper (none / 0) (#90)
    by CoralGables on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:28:08 AM EST
    don't hit the theaters until Christmas Day, it makes perfect sense they haven't been nominated for anything for 2014.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#110)
    by jbindc on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:14:46 AM EST
    "Annie" only opens today and Quvenzhané Wallis was already nominated for her performance.

    Parent
    both films have already had their premieres. (none / 0) (#126)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    And they've also been in limited release in L.A. and New York, in order to qualify for Oscar consideration next month. Christmas Day is the date of their general release nationwide.

    Parent
    As for the TV awards... (none / 0) (#186)
    by McBain on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:24:04 PM EST
    Best Drama:
    Game of Thrones:  Still great
    Good Wife:  Still good
    House of Cards: The second season was ridiculous
    Downton Abbey: Going downhill
    The Affair:  Never seen it.  Is it any good?

    I would probably add Ray Donovan and maybe Masters of Sex (haven't finished first season yet) to the list

    Best Miniseries:
    True Detective:  Excellent (not sure why it's a miniseries?)
    Fargo:  Good
    Olive Kitteridge: Decent
    The Missing:  Didn't see it
    Normal Heart:  Didn't see it

    Parent

    Incredibly depressing report (none / 0) (#104)
    by CST on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:41:41 AM EST
    On homelessness in Boston today.

    "More Boston residents are living in emergency shelters than in any of 25 major cities surveyed nationwide, according to a report released Thursday by the US Conference of Mayors."

    That's not %, that's total.  In other words, Boston, a city of 650,000 has more homeless people than LA, with a population of 3.8 million.

    Also:
    "A quarter of the city's homeless adults have jobs. In Trenton, N.J., by comparison, only 4 percent are employed."

    So it's not that unemployment is too high, it's that housing costs are astronomical.

    The silver lining?
    "Few of the homeless people in Boston are on the streets, in part because of the Massachusetts "right to shelter" law that guarantees qualified families a place to stay."

    Also, and I don't know how related this is, but there is a heroin epidemic in MA.

    One of the things (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:53:06 AM EST
    about trashing the so called social safety net that bugs me so much is that people don't understand that most people using it are not lazy and shiftless although they are constantly portrayed that way.  Many have two full time jobs.  My recent experience with minimum wage fully lifted the scales from my eyes in this area.

    I honestly wish I could mandate that every adult in the country had to live on minimum wage for one year.  OR until it was lifted to a real living wage.

    Things would change very quickly.

    Parent

    yea (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by CST on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 11:14:41 AM EST
    I think there is some understanding around here just because housing is so expensive for everyone.  I make a good wage and I'm still living in one of the cheapest neighborhoods because that's all I can afford.

    Rents are astronomical.  The city negotiates a certain number of affordable housing units with developers for just about every major project, but even still there is a huge shortage.  And the fact that the city has to negotiate so that someone making 60,000 a year only has to pay $1,300 for a (tiny) studio apartment ($1,500 for a one-bedroom) - is a little crazy.  And good luck finding one of them that's actually available.

    Parent

    one other reason (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by CST on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:55:42 AM EST
    While the city of Boston itself is not that big, it is one of the larger urban areas in the country and looking at the total homeless population in MA, close to 80% of them are in Boston.  So clearly the city is inheriting the problems from the region.

    Parent
    This part... (5.00 / 3) (#181)
    by lentinel on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 08:54:52 PM EST
    .
    ..Massachusetts "right to shelter" law that guarantees qualified families a place to stay...

    I wonder what makes a family, "qualified" - and what would make a homeless family "unqualified" for a place to stay?

    Meanwhile, we're spending $300,000 an hour in Iraq and Syria.

    We could give everybody a place to stay and feed them too for that kind of money.

    Parent

    Hope you like prison-casual (none / 0) (#117)
    by jbindc on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:03:33 PM EST
    Bobby McDonnell

    The federal agency that will play a pivotal role in guiding the sentence of former Virginia governor Robert F. McDonnell has recommended that the onetime Republican rising star spend at least 10 years and a month in prison and 12 years and 7 months at most, according to several people familiar with the matter.

    The guidelines recommended by the U.S. probation office are preliminary ones, and even if finalized, U.S. District Judge James R. Spencer is not required to follow them. But experts said Spencer typically heeds the probation office's advice, and judges in his district have imposed sentences within the recommended range more than 70 percent of the time in recent years.

    "It's of critical importance," said white collar criminal defense attorney Scott Fredericksen. "The fact is, the vast majority of times, courts follow those recommendations closely."

    To be sure, the matter is far from settled. Calculating an appropriate range of sentences in the federal system is a complicated, mathematical process that takes into account a variety of factors, including the type of crime that was committed, the defendant's role in that crime and the amount of the loss. A probation officer is tasked with analyzing each factor objectively, then using the federal sentencing guidelines to calculate an appropriate range of penalties.

    SNIP

    The range is particularly notable because last December, prosecutors offered to let McDonnell plead guilty to just one count of lying to a bank as part of an agreement that would have meant he could be sentenced to three years in prison at the most, and probation at the least. Importantly, though, McDonnell would have been required to sign a statement acknowledging that he helped Williams's company at the same time the businessman was giving him loot, fully shouldering blame for a relationship he has insisted was not criminal and was driven largely by his wife.


    Roll the dice, Counsellor (none / 0) (#166)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:50:22 PM EST
    My wife will take the heat for me.

    Parent
    Republican Family Values (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:52:37 PM EST
    Overcharged (none / 0) (#124)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 12:40:31 PM EST
    So many of those writing about the Wilson Grand Jury Report are doing their best to rewrite it, but only digging themselves in deeper. Consider this from the Prosecutor's Office found in the report:

    In his original statement, Wilson said he fired once inside the car. He told the grand jury he fired twice. Physical evidence appears to back up his initial story. p49

    Is this the PA's backhanded way of admitting that Wilson lied to the Grand Jury???

    Anyway, there went the struggle for the gun inside the Tahoe, as physical evidence shows that only one shot was fired in the Tahoe and it hit nobody and drew no blood and was found inside the door panel leaving no evidence to back up Wilson's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd story.

    Physical Evidence is proving to be the best witness and it is not backing up Wilson here.  

    And then there is this regarding Brown's final "charge":

    Brown's furthest point away from where he fell was at the blood drippings at Markers 19/20 shown at Photo #82 here

    From there he came forward 22 feet over ~7 seconds as 10 shots are fired at him.

    So was that move forward a charge, a walk or a stumble. Let's do the math:

    22ft/7 seconds means that he was moving toward Wilson at a blazing speed of 3.14 ft/sec.

    Charging speed is 7.4 ft/sec while walking speed is 4.4 ft/sec.

    Brown was significantly below even walking speed during his final 7 seconds, especially when you consider that he was already moving forward from Markers 19/20 when Wilson let loose his final10shot/7second barrage on him.

    Anyway there goes the "charge" claim. He couldn't have even been moving forward at walking speed either. It was more like at stumble speed as many witnesses testified.

    Grand Jury Report

    Hmmm.... (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by jbindc on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 01:22:45 PM EST
    While I think you're a bit obsessed with all of this - even wading into the territory of conspiracy theorist - I do find it interesting that you never account for the fact that Wilson was backing up as he was shooting and as Brown was charging.

    Who backs up if they are just on the hunt and want to gun someone down?  By instinct, every single person would back up if they are apprehensive or felt some kind of fear.

    Parent

    Wilson's backing up (none / 0) (#131)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:09:49 PM EST
    does not affect those 22 feet or 7 seconds in the least. Those are all about Brown's movement not Wilson's.

    Wilson can back up to all the way to Lake Tahoe if he wants to -- but that won't make those 22 feet nor 7 seconds any shorter or longer -- nor turn a slow walk stumble into a charge.

    But you do raise a good point about backing up: given that Wilson's back was not up against a wall  and he had all that space behind him, why didn't Wilson just back up and back up until the guy bleeding from all those bullets in him just fell from loss of blood.

    It's not like someone in his condition was going to be coming forward much further.

    Parent

    Um... (none / 0) (#132)
    by jbindc on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:12:22 PM EST
    because "the guy bleeding from all those bullets ..." didn't get them until he started charging / coming toward Wilson?

    But carry on looking for WMD's under the desk as well....

    Parent

    The guy bleeding (none / 0) (#136)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 02:31:40 PM EST
    didn't get them until he started charging / coming toward Wilson?

    So I guess you didn't read the Grand Jury Report or even just the part about Markers 19 and 20 where all that blood of his was dripping on the ground there -- before and after he turned around -- before the last 7 second barrage during which he stumbled 22 feet and fell.

    You should read and pay attention more --


    Parent

    If anyone is interested the (5.00 / 5) (#141)
    by fishcamp on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 03:35:26 PM EST
    Pipeline Masters surfing contest is on live now , from the North shore of Oahu, in Donald from Hawaii land.  Just google: aspworldtour.  They are having very large waves today and it's quite exciting.  I made a surf film back in 1972 that hit the surf movie circuit in southern California with much success but not much money.  While the surfers have changed the big waves are still the same.  Didn't go fishing or boating since it was cloudy, cold, and windy.  Did go to the gym, and now I'm home practicing my Scottish lingo with my friend that's visiting from Scotland.  Thought I should forewarn you, ye ken.

    Parent
    At this point, ... (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:49:00 PM EST
    ... I think that watching two old men play checkers on Cable Channel 433 would be more interesting, than reading yet another reprise of the recent Michael Brown discussions.

    Yep, Oahu's North Shore is pumping today, with consistent 8 to 15 ft. waves. Here's a great webcam from the surf spot called "Backdoors." But if you're interested in seeing where some of us out here who have to work for a living are presently located, here's a live webcam shot overlooking Downtown Honolulu from Pacific Heights (elev. 900 ft.).

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald, I subscribe to both (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by fishcamp on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 06:43:25 PM EST
    those websites and check out the surf daily.  They are getting big waves in California too.  Mavericks is breaking big today.  Hope 44 year old Kelly Slater wins the Pipe.  He's amazing.

    Parent
    California's just been slammed by ... (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:51:57 PM EST
    ... the season's first appearance of the so-called "Pineapple Express" -- a meteorological phenomenon often occurring in the eastern Pacific during the winter months, in which the atmospherics above Hawaii packages our rainy season weather and shoots in in a quasi-jet stream directly toward the west coast. And we've had an unseasonably wet year, so it's only right that we share it with our closest neighbors to the east -- 2,500 miles away.

    This latest episode just dropped 3 to 5 inches of much-needed rain in Northern California, and packed the High Sierra with up to three feet of snow. The Bay Area, Santa Rosa and Santa Cruz have had to deal with some flooding, but on the whole, California really needed this.

    In good years, the "Pineapple Express" will account for the bulk of precipitation (both rain and snow) that California receives during the winter. But in the last few years, the "Express" has not been forthcoming except intermittently, which has likely contributed greatly to the drought that's hit that state.

    I got a call from my brother about an hour ago, and his neighborhood in Glendora is dealing with massive mudslides, caused by runoff over recent major burn areas in the San Gabriel Mountains. South-central L.A. just got hit with a tornado this afternoon. And of course, what's a winter storm in Southern California, without a dramatic rescue from a rain-swollen Los Angeles River?

    And the good news for the Golden State is that we've got a lot more where this came from. It's been raining here all week, save for today, so they can expect some very wet days next week, too. Hopefully, this will bring considerable relief to the drought conditions afflicting the west coast region.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The Pacific Northwest (5.00 / 4) (#198)
    by fishcamp on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 06:25:43 AM EST
    is getting hammered too.  Just saw a house fall into the ocean and get washed away, in get this, Washaway, Washington. True truth.  

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 04:23:21 PM EST
    why didn't Wilson just back up and back up until the guy bleeding from all those bullets in him just fell from loss of blood.

    Because he had no idea as to how badly Brown was wounded. Remember, we're talking seconds here.

    It's not like someone in his condition was going to be coming forward much further.

    Glad to know that you know what Wilson knew.

    Could you join my poker team??

    Parent

    jimaka (none / 0) (#156)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:24:21 PM EST
    Could you join my poker team??

    Only if I can use my "charge" card --

    Parent

    Tamir Rice autopsy report (none / 0) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 05:27:37 PM EST
    is interesting.

    It's not that we didn't know he died of a gunshot wound but it says he died of what they call in the movies a "gut shot".
    Which is not only supposed to be really painful it's seem possible he might have been saved if the two idiot cops had made any attempt to save him.

    LINK

    I as lay-person have been reading and trying (none / 0) (#187)
    by ZtoA on Fri Dec 12, 2014 at 10:34:02 PM EST
     to assimilate all  .  I hope I get this comment grammatically and  sp correct.  Can I continue to blame my dyslexia on  ?? . but whatever.

     Blaming the person who was done a criminal act upon for that criminal act is not the 'answer" . The answer lies wihthin the the 'act' itslelf. sorry for all my mistakes - just quit work and I did not even realize this was a "weekend" night.

    (BTW) as far as stats on rape go, my personal good female friends ( around 10)  50% were raped in the 60s and 70s) but they thought that was 'normal'.

    With all due respect (not <snark>) (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by NYShooter on Sat Dec 13, 2014 at 02:37:05 AM EST
    Our ages can't be that far apart whereby a rape is/was considered, "normal."

    Unless, of course, you have some, woo-woo, very  strange friends. (o.k. that was <snark>

    Seriously, ZtoA, maybe you should spend a little more time with a dictionary, or, a thesaurus to find a more appropriate word. "Rape," at some time, or, with some people, may have been tolerated, or, ignored. But, I feel quite strongly that ever since we, as a species, left the ocean, and, began walking upright, we knew (inherently, instinctively, innately, congenitally, and every other "ly" that rape was wrong.

    Parent

    For Yman and Donald (none / 0) (#204)
    by Slado on Sun Dec 14, 2014 at 07:50:58 PM EST
    US News

    Another site questioning the stat and the claim of an epidemic or culture of rape on college campuses.

    I guess my whole objection or concern is this seems familiar to the media frenzy of the 80s and 90s when it came to child abuse at day cares.   Lots of reporting, whoopla and some actual crime but the overreacting led to lots of innocent people being charged and kids being used as show props in trials when nothing had happened to them.

    One rape is a rape to many and I think the issues we have in college campuses have more to do with the attitudes young people bring with them to college regarding sex and the environments that are created on these campuses for inappropriate behavior both by regular students makeing bad choices and more importantly predators that use the free for all to their advantage.   This is were many who go out of their way to make sure we don't blame the victim miss something.   Yes it's never the victims fault but for a true predator the culture and casualness that many young people have for sex these days mixed with the loss of social skills to me makes this problem harder to deal with.   Instead of worrying that all boys might do this we need to focus on how men and women work together to avoid the few boys that we know will.

    To me that is why this stat is so harmful.  It makes it seem as if these campuses are crawling with sexual deviants.  Instead you have many young people experimenting and experiencing sexual freedom mixed with alcohol and for the most part it simply leads to unnecessary drama and guilty feelings the next morning but inside this dynamic it also exposes young women to real danger.

    Also what sends all my libertarian alarm bells ringing when I start to read that people are advocating always believing the victim, punishing anyone who is accused automatically and most disturbing having college administrators meet out justice separate and before local law enforcement.  I'd argue this approach makes it worse because actual predators are simply expelled rather then put into the criminal justice system and with such distortion of our traditional justice system it is almost certain that innocent young men will be caught up in the wake.

    That's my position.  I don't need a questionable stat to know that college rape is an issue but not using it allows me to approach a solution in a common sense manner rather then with a flame thrower that to me will do nothing.