home

Tuesday Open Thread

Darlene Love's final performance on Letterman.

Another of my favorites:

Last night, Bon Jovi performed during the Bobby Bandiera and Friends Hope Concert at Count Basie Theatre in Red Bank. He wore a NYPD property t-shirt, saying he wanted to show support for New York City's police. [More...]

"I'm showing a little solidarity for my brothers in the NYPD and all of those who protect and serve us everyday, no matter what the risks," said Bon Jovi to the cheering crowd.

He also sang a tribute song to Joe Cocker ("The Letter.") With a face like his, he can say whatever he wants.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< German Journalist on His Ten Days With ISIS | Sony Reversal: "The Interview" Will Be Released Xmas Day >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Old man tumor (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by Slado on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 11:10:35 AM EST
    Last year I underwent surgery, radiation and chemotherapy in an attempt to stabilize my tumor that rests against my T10 vertebrae.  All went well and I was able to go back to work and spend quality time with my family.

    Unfortunately in the last month a small portion has enlarged by 4mm and this has caused increased pressure on my spinal chord.

    The pain is pretty intense so I am only really comfortable while at rest.   I've started up and completed a first round of chemo but the pain is not subsiding and I will most likely get a pain pump in the next few days.  Because I'm apparently a biblical character in addition I have a radiation burn on my back (from the radiation that saved my life) that will require surgery in the next few weeks to avoid infection.

    I only say all this because I know many of you have followed my condition over the years and I thought you'd like to know that I've experienced such a dramatic change.   One thing I do know is I'll keep fighting and will take all the kind words, prayers and thoughts that you feel you can send my way. I'm a firm believer in the healing power of prayer or spirituality or whatever you want to call it. Somehow we as a species are able to lift each other's spirits and I know from first-hand experience this can help an individual overcome a lot.  We don't make the disease go away, we empower the people fighting it to find that littl extra something that they need to both carry-on and to beat whatever they are fighting.

    Thanks in advance.

    Slado

    You've got my thoughts, best wishes, (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 11:42:38 AM EST
    prayers, whatever you want to call it :-) we know you are strong and a fighter or you never would have been able to put up with all of us all this time. You are one of the people I am honestly not able to put into an automatic 'I know what he/she will say' box and I appreciate your point of view.

    I am sorry for your increased pain. Hope you get some relief soon.

    Parent

    Hang in slado, and stay (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by fishcamp on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 11:43:01 AM EST
    with us.  You have been my best corner man in the Cuba posts. We still have much to discuss and your presence is valuable.

    Parent
    Thoughts are with you... (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 11:50:45 AM EST
    my brother...keep fighting, one day at a time.  

    We all know you can take a licking and keep on ticking...your latest challenges will be no exception.  Rest up and good luck...and if ya need something for the pain, I know people;)

    Parent

    Slado, I'm so sorry to hear this. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 12:06:28 PM EST
    I not only will pray you get some much-needed relief from the pain, but that the new treatment protocol will once again tame this ugly beast.

    Actually, I think I will also pray for the medical professionals treating you, and for your family and friends, who are going through this at your side.

    I will once again marvel at your equanimity, at your relentless ability to stay positive, and find humor even when it seems there's nothing much to laugh about.  We don't always agree on much, but because I am a diehard Democrat married for 34 years to a quasi-Republican, I know that you can still have a good heart, be a loving husband and father, and want and seek the best for those you love, even if you aren't on the same political side of the aisle as someone else.

    Hang in there, please.  It's clear you have a lot to live for, a lot of milestones you want to be present for, a lot of life you want to experience.  To whatever extent we can help when you need a lift or just want to rant, I hope you will let us.

    Peace to you, Slado.

    Parent

    Thanks to all (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Slado on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 05:15:14 PM EST
    I want you to know that while I love arguing with you I love learning more and each of you have taught me something or made me look at an issue in a different way.

    I wouldn't come back for the punishment if that wasn't the case.  Special thanks to TL for putting up with me all these years.   It was the 2004 election that turned me onto this site and it's been fun ever since.

    Right now I'm rocking a pretty sweet morphine pump and hopefully will get a permanent pain pump put in tomorrow that will allow me to have some quality time with the fam Christmas.  If I send out any crazy posts at 2am you'll know why :)

    The drugs and the TL love fest are already working their Magic.

    Thx

    Parent

    Hope you have a (none / 0) (#32)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 05:20:16 PM EST
    Great Christmas free from pain.

    Parent
    Take care of yourself (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 09:14:19 PM EST
    and have a good Christmas and new year.  We here will
     have you in our thoughts.

    Parent
    Wishing you a good holiday and (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:21:34 AM EST
    pain-free.

    Parent
    Hang in there Slado (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 12:41:59 PM EST
    My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

    As someone who has gone through some of this as well, I know it is not always possible to stay positive every hour of every day. The help and prayers of friends and family makes keeping a positive attitude easier to maintain. Belief is a powerful asset and can often make a real difference.

    There are times when almost everything that can go wrong will go wrong before everything turns around and moves in a positive direction. I will pray that this period is short and the climb towards wellness moves much more quickly.  

    Parent

    You are in (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Zorba on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 01:22:39 PM EST
    my prayers and thoughts.
    Keep on fighting.  Your positive outlook and willingness to fight will help you as you go through this difficult time.
    We are all pulling for you!

    Parent
    Ahh geez, Slado. This is not (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by caseyOR on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 02:15:38 PM EST
    the news anyone here wanted for you. It just really sucks.

    I will hold you and your loved ones in my heart and my thoughts. Fighting to live is exhausting. In the hopes that it might help, in whatever way, I will send all the good energy I can muster out to you.

    And, if you live anywhere within reasonable driving distance of my current location in central Illinois, I will happily bring you quarts of my totally non-Jewish, but nonetheless tasty and nourishing, chicken soup.

    Parent

    Hang in there, Slado. (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 03:21:03 PM EST
    And keep thinking good thoughts and envisioning wellness. Please also strive to surround yourself right now with those people in your life who are willing to share their positive energy. Relapses are not easy to endure, but they are definitely beatable.

    Me ke aloha pumehana.

    Parent

    Yes, and you (none / 0) (#23)
    by Zorba on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 03:38:08 PM EST
    really know whereof you speak, Donald, with your own very personal experience.
    You keep thinking good thoughts and envisioning wellness as well yourself, my brother.

    Parent
    Here's hoping that Santa... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by unitron on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 05:28:02 PM EST
    ...brings you some relief and a lot of long term improvement.

    And some of the really good drugs. : - )

    Parent

    Kind words, prayers, and good thoughts... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by desertswine on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 08:30:18 PM EST
    You got 'em buddy.

    Parent
    Words ain't enough, Slado (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 08:36:52 PM EST
    We're all behind you, somehow, all behind you, and hoping for the best.

    Parent
    Slado, I just read your comment (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 11:07:04 PM EST
    and wanted to add that I too am sending good thoughts your way. I admire your strength and attitude. I'm also very glad you have the pain pump.

    Parent
    Slado, I hope, (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by NYShooter on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 01:56:00 PM EST
    no, I know, you're smart enough to understand that the bickering, and, back and forth political arguments we've had are just that, politics. They have nothing to do with you as a caring, feeling human being. While we may have different ideas about how to get there we all want the same thing, a better, kinder, and more just America.

    Hang in there, my friend, seriously.

    Parent

    I'll second that. (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:00:03 PM EST
    Whenever we seek to prioritize our own personal politics (or desires) ahead of other people's well being or our own relationship to them, we always lose a substantive piece of our own humanity.

    The Hawaiian language has a word, 'Ohana, which in general English translation means "family." But in the Hawaiian Islands during the period prior to Western contact, the term also held a somewhat broader meaning. If an Ali'i (a person of nobility or high rank) told you that someone from his or her Ahupua'a (territory) with whom you had a personal disagreement or dispute was 'Ohana, you would respect the claim as nothing less than a veiled warning that this Ali'i and his or her people would stand resolutely with that person, come Hell or high water -- even if that person was not a blood relation to anyone. You therefore crossed that line at your peril.

    As such, the term as it's come to be understood by modern Native Hawaiians and longtime Kama'aina can also encompass not only our own nuclear units but our extended family relatives and our Hanai relations as well -- that is, those persons who aren't necessarily close blood relations at all, but who are nonetheless so near and dear to us as to be considered an integral and natural part of our 'Ohana.

    As such, there is an unspoken compact amongst its members that the 'Ohana strives always to look after and care for its own, and to further ensure that nobody is ever neglected or left behind involuntarily. (In that regard, it also follows that an 'Ohana is only as strong and effective as its members' own collective sense of family and community.)

    Now is the time, Slado, for you to allow your 'Ohana to embrace you, and to let their love and support lift you aloft and carry you to your desired destination, which is your full recovery.

    Don't ever hesitate to ask for assistance whenever you feel you need it, and please don't worry about your dependence upon your 'Ohana and what you might owe individual members in the future. This is the sort of personal debt of intangible value that's always either paid to someone else in full going forward, or forgiven by all in its entirety.

    For one day in the future, you'll likely be called upon to do the same for someone else in your 'Ohana who faces a similar challenge and need (if you haven't been already), and because of your own personal experience you'll no doubt seize upon that moment with neither hesitation nor question.

    Because simply put, that's what members of an 'Ohana do for one another. So, as you face the tough days and weeks ahead, please remember always that you are a much-valued part of your 'Ohana for good reason, and that you are loved and cherished by your blood relations and Hanai alike for just who you are, and not for whatever you might say, believe and / or possess at a given time.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Paragraph #1 = 5 (none / 0) (#151)
    by ZtoA on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 10:39:06 AM EST
    paragraph #2 = 5, Oh heckfire, all the paragraphs = 5s+.

    Parent
    May peace and healing find you Slado (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:49:51 PM EST
    I hope you and your family thoroughly enjoy the holiday season together.

    Parent
    Praying for you, Slado (none / 0) (#4)
    by Politalkix on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 11:48:51 AM EST
    Hang in there...

    Parent
    Good luck man, we're pulling for you. (none / 0) (#9)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 01:33:33 PM EST
    You have it. (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 01:37:12 PM EST
    best wishes Slado (none / 0) (#12)
    by CST on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 02:13:36 PM EST
    I wish I could think of something better to say than that - but we're all pulling for you.

    Parent
    sunt lacrimae rerum (none / 0) (#39)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 09:00:29 PM EST
    Which I translate as "There are tears in these things".

    Parent
    Aw, Slado (none / 0) (#46)
    by sj on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 11:59:59 PM EST
    I'm so sorry to hear this. I know that you converted to Catholicism and, even though I'm no longer a practicing Catholic, the Sermon on The Mount is still where I go when I need comfort.

    You have my prayers.

    Parent

    I am so sorry (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:39:16 AM EST
    to hear this. I really hope you are able to enjoy Christmas with your family. Prayers for healing sent your way.

    Parent
    Me too, wishing you good healing (none / 0) (#74)
    by ZtoA on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:53:05 AM EST
    BTW, some say that this is a good time of year for healing - the shortest day of the year has passed and longer daylight days are on the way. Cheers!

    Parent
    Will the punditry... (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 02:11:17 PM EST
    rail on Bob Jovi for this political statement like they did all the athletes who expressed support for Mike Brown and Eric Garner?    

    I smell a double standard...and speaking of double standards, while I can somewhat agree with and support De Blasio's call for a Christmas truce, ,who doesn't like a Christmas truce?, but it's just another double standard.  The police don't stop aggressive policing when one of theirs kills, in fact they often close ranks and double-down, so why should the protesters be asked to stand down over the horribly tragic murders committed by a lone wolf mentally deranged individual?  It doesn't make any sense.  These protests are vital to preserving freedom and order...yes order, because without change in how we maintain order, our quest for order will only bring more disorder, hatred, unrest, and violence.

    That being said, it's Christmas and I can get down with cooling out for Christmas...for no other reason than it's f*ckin' Christmas, and I expect more of the protest movement than I do the authorities.  I say heed the call, and get right back out there Jan 2 for the change we so desperately need to come.  For everybody's safety and quality of life...white, black, brown, yellow, & blue alike.

    Creative editing by Fox News (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 05:08:46 PM EST
    A Baltimore Fox affiliate apologized Monday night for a report it ran over the weekend that deceptively edited protesters to look like they were chanting "kill a cop."

    Gawker originally caught WBFF chopping up footage of a protest chant to sound like incitement to murder police on Monday.

    The chant went "we won't stop, we can't stop, 'til killer cops, are in cell blocks," according to C-SPAN footage.

    But WBFF cut the audio short and told viewers that the words were in fact "we won't stop, we can't stop, so kill a cop." Link


    Seems it was just a wee misunderstanding, that the station showed their edited clip before tying it to the shooting of the two police officers in NY. Even their so called apology was less than candid.

    The network tonight acted as if inviting Jones on to speak about police brutality and to clarify her position somehow explained or made up for the fact that they aired doctored material which entirely distorted the truth.


    Parent
    Interesting conversation (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:09:47 AM EST
    around the Christmas dinner table about all this.  It started as you would imagine.  It's their own fault. But that's when I grabbed my sisters new iPad and we all looked at the story of John Crawford.  I don't understand why there has not been more coverage of Crawford story.  Of all the ones in the news recently it seems the most inexcusable.  There is just no way a sane person can rationalize being gunned down for holding a toy in WalMart.  
    Or at least that was the opinion of the table.  It really made them admit that, yeah, ya know, it is possible we have a little problem here.

    Parent
    Perhaps, in the words of one commentator here (none / 0) (#60)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 07:48:03 AM EST
    This Fox affiliate should "quit making things up".

    Parent
    Did CNN make this up?? (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:41:34 AM EST
    A group of protesters crashed a memorial for slain NYPD officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos on Monday. The protesters yelled at police while they were mourning the deaths of their fallen officers at a makeshift memorial created at the site the officers were killed.

    link

    Parent

    If they didn't edit the tape like (none / 0) (#75)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:54:32 AM EST
    The Fox affiliate in Baltimore did, then no.

    You have nothing to say about the dishonesty of the Fox affiliate?

    Why am I not surprised?

    and these protestors were "told" to crash it because of Rev. Sharpton and all the "advertising on the newscasts and the Facebook". Am I right?

    Parent

    Why should I defend a news station?? (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:38:08 AM EST
    Your bias for the protesters is obvious.

    And yes, advertising and PR campaigns work.

    Ask Apple.

    Parent

    And I don't have to defend CNN then (none / 0) (#88)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:49:16 AM EST
    As for advertising, for every Apple, there is a Crystal Pepsi:

    In 1992, PepsiCo introduced Crystal Pepsi to test markets in Denver, Sacramento, Dallas, and Providence,[3] and the product generated a positive response.[2] Pleased with the results, PepsiCo launched the cola on April 12, 1992,[4] and began to sell it nationwide in 1993. A large marketing campaign was launched, for which the company invented the world's first photo-realistic, computer-generated bus wrap printing. A series of television advertisements featuring Van Halen's hit song "Right Now" premiered on national television on January 31, 1993, during Super Bowl XXVII.[2] Another marketing ploy was to give out full sized sample bottles with the Sunday paper deliveries such as the Boston Globe in Massachusetts. In its first year, Crystal Pepsi captured a full percentage point of U.S. soft drink sales, approximately $474 million.[5] Coca-Cola followed suit by launching Tab Clear on December 14, 1992.[6]

    Initial sales were good but quickly fell.[7][better source needed] By fall 1993, Pepsi pulled the drink off the market, and the final batches were delivered to retailers during the first few months of 1994. Pepsi returned several months later with a reformulated citrus drink titled Crystal From Pepsi, but this was short-lived as well.[8]

    Link to one of those "ads" Jim.  If you're correct your theory, then you should be able to link to one of them.......

    If you're not making it up in the first place.

    As usual, no charge.

    Parent

    Ah yes, corporations and politicians (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:57:44 AM EST
    don't spend billions of dollars on PR campaigns.

    Nope. Doesn't happen.

    You're hopeless.

    BTW - The sun came up this morning. (I am sure you will disagree.)

    lol

    Parent

    No, I merely disagree (none / 0) (#95)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:14:14 PM EST
    That spending money on a campaign doesn't ensure its success.

    Ask Carly Fiorina, Meg Whitman (both of whom ran campaigns in CA, spend money and lost big).  

    By your standards, their campaigns didn't exist, since you assure us at any spending of money by a corporation or politician guarantees success.

    Still haven't given me any examples of these "ads" Jim.  Three strikes, and you are out, as far as any measure of credibility is concerned.

    BTW, what color is the sky in your world?

    Parent

    Okay so you agree that spending money (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 03:21:45 PM EST
    on a campaign does not ensure success.

    True.

    And I have never never said that spending assures success.

    Why do you make up such obvious fabrications??

    And you don't understand that the total domination of the news by the protesters is success??

    Why do you think they protest??

    They do so to get their message out.

    The campaign to do that has been successful. They have dominated the news.

    The next question will be, will they be successful in doing what??

    Do they want the police to withdraw and quit reducing crime by their presence???

    Have you ever heard of food deserts?

    Parent

    You paint all advertising campaigns (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 03:33:42 PM EST
    As being successful, and I point out that even with spending a lot of money on them, many fail.

    So the POV you ascribe me as ascribing to you doesn't make sense.

    You still haven't shown an example, so you're out.

    Parent

    "New Coke"? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Zorba on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:01:19 PM EST
    I'm sure he doesn't remember that one, either.  ;-)

    Parent
    Advertising works... (none / 0) (#141)
    by unitron on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:23:40 PM EST
    ...in that it raises awareness of that which is being advertised.

    Whether the product itself is successful depends on whether any of those made aware of it like it.

    What doesn't work is not advertising and thereby leaving the public unaware of the product.

    Parent

    Here's what's wrong with such journalism. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 02:26:54 PM EST
    The Daily Beast currently has a lead article up with the headline, "Trayvon Martin's Family Rejects 'Dead Cops' Marchers" -- once again proving that a lie can spread halfway across the world before the truth has time to even put on its shoes.

    Honest mistake? I don't think so. WBFF-TV's Melinda Roeder was previously called out for this very sort of "creative reporting" back in October 2011 -- by the Baltimore Police Dept., no less -- when she was covering the Occupy movement in her city:

    "[Last] night's misstep is not the first time [Ms. Roeder] made waves with a controversial -- or apparently bogus -- story centered on the actions of members of a protest movement. On Oct. 31, 2011, Fox 45 aired Roeder's interview with a woman who claimed she had been raped in a tent on McKeldin Square during the Occupy Wall Street protest. Brietbart, the right-wing site, re-aired the segment. [...] The next day Baltimore police said the rape allegation was 'unfounded,'and that the 'victim at no time reported a sexual assault to police[.]'"

    The best and most time-honored method to ensure general maintenance of professional ethics and standards is peer review, in which we strive to protect and ensure the integrity of our respective professions by policing our own and calling out wrongdoing.

    To that effect, why aren't other mainstream journalists speaking out against and denouncing Melinda Roeder's blatant hackery? The Daily Beast's contingent is apparently too busy playing the role of public stenographer to even be bothered to notice, since they're still more than happy to continue disseminating Ms. Roeder's malicious falsehood to the general public 24 hours after it's been debunked.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    pretty much (none / 0) (#14)
    by CST on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 02:30:50 PM EST
    Are the cops gonna call a cease fire as well?

    Parent
    I know there were threats... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 02:42:26 PM EST
    from Lynch of a hold on arrests and summonses...which to me is not a threat, but a Christmas present from the NYPD. So ya know that ain't happening, I wasn't that good this year;)

    But to De Blasio's credit, he has also called on Lynch to cool it too with the bullsh&t. And is saying the right things in regards to rebuilding relations...but whether he has the power and/or ability to change the culture of the NYPD where many other mayor's have failed or failed to try remains to be seen.  It's a monumental if not impossible task.  

    Parent

    There's no comparison between what Brinsley (none / 0) (#16)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 02:46:41 PM EST
    did and what happened to Garner, Brown or Rice. The police weren't out to murder anyone.  

    I have no problem with Bon Jovi here. It would be really interesting to see the reaction if an NBA or NFL athlete did the same.

    Parent

    I got no problem... (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 02:58:40 PM EST
    with Bon Jovi's shirt and statement, nor a problem with the various athlete's and musician's shirts and statements in support of those killed by police.  Let freedom ring.

    Just find it odd that one is universally acceptable and the other is somehow controversial.

    Of course the specifics of each homicide is different, though the results are the same.  Dead people and heartbroken families and the senselessness of it all.

    Parent

    I think the Mike Brown support (none / 0) (#18)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 03:12:56 PM EST
    rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.  Eric Garner and Tamir Rice are different situations but Mike Brown was a criminal.  The physical evidence suggested he assaulted Darren Wilson.

    Parent
    Regardless of what happened (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by CST on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 03:18:57 PM EST
    Assault is not a capital offense.

    Sorry if that rubs people the wrong way.

    Parent

    I don't believe in the death penalty for anyone (none / 0) (#21)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 03:26:46 PM EST
    but I don't blame cops for shooting criminals when they turn violent.  Hopefully, there will be improvements in non lethal police tactics. When police have to shoot someone, it doesn't just put the criminal's life at risk, innocent bystanders can be hurt or killed.

    Parent
    I guess what I'm saying is (5.00 / 6) (#22)
    by CST on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 03:28:44 PM EST
    I don't buy that he "had" to kill him.

    And neither do a lot of people.  But regardless of your opinion of the case, the idea that protesting over the death of a man "rubs people the wrong way" - well let's just say that "rubs me the wrong way"

    Parent

    "had to kill" (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by FlJoe on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 04:27:08 PM EST
    Is indeed the problem. Way to often these cops rush headlong into a situation, often with guns drawn, the situation escalates and bingo the cop feels endangered bang bang,boo hoo, cops walk. Rinse and repeat. Something tells me that is rather bad police work there. Leaving legal justifications aside having a police force that is unable to allow relatively minor confrontations from escalating into deadly disasters is rather disturbing.

    Parent
    Speaking of which, ... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 04:45:08 PM EST
    ... Milwaukee County (WI) District Attorney John Chisolm announced yesterday that -- well, I'll just let everyone read it for themselves:

    Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel | December 22, 2014
    Ex-Milwaukee officer won't be charged in Dontre Hamilton shooting - "In one of the most highly anticipated legal decisions in recent memory, Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm announced Monday that former Milwaukee police officer Christopher Manney will not be charged in the fatal shooting of Dontre Hamilton at Red Arrow Park. Chisholm determined that Manney's use of force was justified self-defense. [...] Manney shot Hamilton 14 times on April 30 during a confrontation at Red Arrow Park. Before the encounter, a pair of officers responding to a call that Hamilton was asleep in the park checked on him twice and found he was doing nothing wrong. When Manney arrived, he was not aware that other officers had preceded him. As Manney began to pat down Hamilton, Hamilton fought him, and a confrontation ensued. Manney tried to use his baton to subdue Hamilton, but Hamilton got control of it and swung at Manney, hitting him on the side of the neck, according to Milwaukee police internal affairs. Manney then shot Hamilton repeatedly."

    Officer Manney was subsequently terminated by the department for failure to follow department rules in the moments leading up to the shooting.

    Two words: Boo. Hiss.

    Parent

    When we can rub each other... (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 03:52:25 PM EST
    the wrong way without one rubber pulling a gun and shooting the other rubber...we will have arrived!

    But sh*t I will settle for equality under the law when the rubbin' leads to assault or homicide.

    Parent

    Excuse me, but please refresh my memory. (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 04:51:45 PM EST
    McBain: "I don't believe in the death penalty for anyone, but I don't blame cops for shooting criminals when they turn violent."

    What was the crime for which Michael Brown stood convicted, that you feel so free to label him a violent criminal?

    Parent

    This is what I mean by rubbing people the (1.50 / 2) (#34)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 06:03:19 PM EST
    wrong way.  You picked the wrong case.  If you talk about Eric Garner or Tamir Rice, we might not agree on everything but it would be a legitimate argument.

    Are you arguing the technicality that Brown died before he could stand trial for strong arm robbery and assaulting a cop?  I'm surprised, that sounds like something MO Blue would do. You might as well say that Ismaaiyl Brinsley won't be convicted of murder because he's dead.

     

    Parent

    What do you mean, I picked the wrong case? (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 11:54:32 PM EST
    Look, you clearly stated that you thought Michael Brown was a criminal:

    "Eric Garner and Tamir Rice are different situations but Mike Brown was a criminal.  The physical evidence suggested he assaulted Darren Wilson." (Emphasis is mine.)

    Yet Brown had no criminal record, and any evidence of either a "strong arm robbery" at a convenience store and a subsequent assault on Officer Wilson are at best inconclusive from your standpoint.

    If Brown committed a felonious robbery at that convenience store just minutes before he was shot by Wilson, why didn't anybody from the store call 911? Rather, police records show that the call was made by a customer following what appeared to be an altercation between the 6'4" Brown and a much smaller clerk.

    And according to the store's owner, police didn't issue a subpoena for the store's surveillance videos until August 15, which was the same day that an incomplete version of it was provided to the media by police officials. But another surveillance video in the store shows Brown standing at the cashier's counter and apparently paying for the cigarillos, dropping some of them on the floor, picking them up and then calmly walking away.

    It's not at all clear why (a) the convenience store clerk confronted Brown, (b) the much larger 18-year-old shoved the clerk, and (c) the clerk didn't call police, if no robbery was involved. But even if Brown pocketed more cigarillos that he paid for, that's a misdemeanor shoplifting charge and not felony robbery.

    Regarding Brown's alleged assault on Wilson, the actual evidence strongly suggests that the allegation was somewhat overstated. The initial story advanced by Wilson's advocates was that the officer suffered a fractured eye socket at the hands of Brown, which clearly did not happen and was obviously not true. We simply do not know with any certainty what happened at Wilson's vehicle, and why he then shot Brown.

    And that's why your various assertions about Brown's criminality are at best inconclusive. Therefore, please stop repeating them here as though they are fact when they're not. Your speculation is simply nothing more than that -- your own speculation. And as such, opinions are evidence of nothing.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Browns actions (3.50 / 2) (#50)
    by Slado on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:30:27 AM EST
    Contributed to the confrontation.

    This is different than the other two cases.

    Why was Brown anyway near or inside the officers car?  What possible explanation is there other than he was confronting Ofc. Wilson?  

    Wilson was punched, slapped or struck by Brown.   What possible explanation is there other than some sort of confrontation occurred between Ofc. Wilson and Brown?

    Ignore the video if you want.    Let's assume he was a perfect angel off to college in the fall.

    For whatever reason from the time he was asked to use the sidewalk to when he was fatally shot he did not act like an innocent victim of a rabid policeman.   He got into a fight with an armed officer.   One can only argue that Wilson acted with too much force in response to being confronted.   Pretending that Brown was not at the least an equal party in a fight seems to ignore reality.   We can parse language but we can't deny that Browns actions contributed in some way to his tragic death.  


    Parent

    Wilson's actions contributed, too. (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 02:16:21 AM EST
    As I said above, we really don't know what happened that day because as it stands, the evidence is inconclusive. Just because Wilson wasn't indicted by a grand jury, it doesn't necessarily follow that his account should therefor be considered gospel. Who knows, maybe he was hit by his own car door slamming back on him.

    Again, the point here is that I don't know what happened, any more than you or McBain do. But of us three, I seem to be the only one who can freely admit that.

    I've never once called Wilson a criminal. I have said only that based upon what I've seen and read from the official record, the case deserved to go to trial, whereas you guys are bending over backwards here, defending a guy who probably had no business ever being given a badge in the first place.

    Sorry, but in my opinion McBain is nothing but a troll who's merely regurgitating ad nauseum those baseless right-wing talking points which label Michael Brown a criminal. Certainly, such labels have no business being repeated here on Jeralyn's blog, especially when the record doesn't substantiate the charge. Never mind that Brown's dead and can no longer speak for or defend himself.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    All I can say is, I'd be punching, (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:15:33 AM EST
    slapping and struggling, too, if I thought I was about to be shot, and doing everything I could to prevent that from happening.

    Brown was "at the car" because Wilson pulled up right next to him.  And Wilson did that because Brown and Johnson didn't get out of the street when Wilson demanded they do so.

    As for the video from the store, or what took place there, I don't think anyone is saying that if Mike Brown did what he's being accused of that he shouldn't have had to answer for it in a court of law.  I think what they are saying is that he still deserved the protection of innocent-until-proved-guilty, a chance to give his side of the events.  Whatever that was all about should not be used in hindsight, as it seems to be among more than a few here, to justify him ending up dead on the street.  

    On the one hand, people want to make Wilson and Brown equally responsible for what transpired, but it's my opinion that the professionally-trained police officer has to be held to a higher standard, and in this case, has to be given a failing grade for not acting in any way to de-escalate the situation, as he is trained to do.

    In the Garner case, Eric Garner wasn't just angry because he was about to be arrested by a gang of cops, he was pissed because he had helped break up the fight the police had been called to deal with, and in return, they decided he was going to be their next target of interest.  There's no reason on God's green earth the cops couldn't have looked the other way and let it go.  But who knows, maybe they were all jazzed up for a fight-in-progress call that fizzled out, and decided not to waste all that adrenaline.

    In either case, death is not the penalty for anything either of these men were alleged to have done, and it's more than a little troubling that people are excusing and justifying it.


    Parent

    So what if Brown contributed (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by FlJoe on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:05:16 PM EST
    Wilson or any cop is supposed to be the professional in these situations. All to often cops rush headlong into situations, find themselves in danger (or so they claim), then proceed to blast away. 99% of these clowns walk free of any legal sanctions and a majority keep their job. There are no cops who do not face belligerent people as a normal part of the job, an I pity/respect them for that.However it is becoming way too clear that way too many of the men in blue drop their "professionalism" way to often. The Apologists all chime in "he was doing his job", "had no choice" "blah, blah, blah". NO these guys were doing a monumentally sh**ty job, they had plenty choices. You Apologists are way to comfortable are way to with the idea of unarmed citizens lying dead in the street as the result of "proper" police work. If that really is the new normal in this country then please pass the Prestone.

    Parent
    Mostly agree (2.00 / 1) (#55)
    by McBain on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 01:29:55 AM EST
    You make it sound like the actions Garner and Rice didn't contribute to their deaths.  I would argue that but say they were less responsible than Brown.

     

    Parent

    For me the police (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Slado on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 01:59:59 AM EST
    Should be held to a higher standard in terms of violence.  Rice and Garner were not armed and did not present a deadly threat to those officers.   You can call it 20/20 hindsight in the case of Rice but bottom line it was a toy gun.

    Garner is even more obscene because he at no time directly threaten the safety of any of those police officers.  Could he have been more cooperative? Yes.   But the guy was pissed that it took several officers to arrest him for a petty crime that he feels shouldn't be a crime in the first place.   Give the guy five minutes to cool down, give him 15 minutes to let him bitch and moan, and then arrest the guy.   No need for a group of police officers to gang tackle one individual to make a petty theft arrest.  

    The Rice case is even more simple.  That cop car came in like it was a responding to a shootout at the OK corral.   How can any police officer make a responsible decision with a deadly weapon when the car charges a suspect at full speed slamming on the brakes?   Yeah the kid shouldn't of been running around waving to a toy gun.  But toy guns don't fire real bullets. Toy guns don't make real bullet noises.   Any extra time spent examining the current situation would've led to a better outcome. The kid was at fault for having a toy gun. That is not a capital offense.

    The police despite no matter how bad the neighborhood is are not in a war zone.   Their job is to protect everyone in the community even the people accused of crimes.   When they shoot people that are unarmed and are not physically attacking them I'm sorry they are mostly to blame if not totally.

    This is why you can't compare the three cases.  Brown is different. He attacked Ofc. Wilson.

    The other two were guilty of minor crimes.   The actions of the arresting officers led to their deaths.   Hard to bottom line any simpler then that.

     

    Parent

    Now you sound like Chip (none / 0) (#54)
    by McBain on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 01:19:48 AM EST
    I don't understand why you're fighting this one? Even Brown's own laywers and Dorian Johnson admit Brown robbed the store.  When he shoved the clerk it became a felony.  

    On the day he died, Mike Brown was a violent criminal. His actions directly led to his death.    

    Parent

    You are a hopeless troll, McBain. (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 01:43:51 AM EST
    You're obviously living in a parallel universe of "truthiness," in which you see and hear only what you want to see and hear, and disregard everything that's inconvenient and / or unpleasant to your eyes and ears. I don't know why I continue to waste my time responding to your fact-free shtick. One would think I'd have learned my lesson already.

    Parent
    Good grief (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:26:08 AM EST
    Look, you clearly stated that you thought Michael Brown was a criminal:

    And as such, opinions are evidence of nothing.

    We have a video and we have him with the loot and we have Johnson.  

    You damage my belief in the common sense of the american citizen.

    Parent

    Isn't that a coincidence? (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Zorba on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:46:33 AM EST
    You damaged my belief in the critical thinking skills of the American citizen a long time ago.

    Parent
    And that you want to argue (2.00 / 1) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:41:43 AM EST
    the definition of the word "criminal" shows that you didn't have much to damage.

    BTW - Criminal is a noun.

    Parent

    I never even once (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Zorba on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:52:42 PM EST
    Argued about the definition of "criminal."
    I believe that you were attempting to respond to Donald.
    Learning how comment response parenting works on this blog, and, most especially, reading comprehension, are valuable skills.
    You're not at all naive or stupid, Jim.  But sometimes you seem to put on that act, which tends to get a little old after awhile.  It does not speak well of you.
    At any rate, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

    Parent
    What??? (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 06:54:36 PM EST
    Mike Brown was a criminal.

    And what "crime" was that???

    And he was convicted of it when???

    Don't right and left both hold to the Constitutional rights of those accused of a crime, even those who steal a handful of cigarillos.

    What happened to Brown's Constitutional rights???

    Do they have to bow to a police officer's right to shoot him as he accuses him of going for his gun???

     

    The physical evidence suggested he assaulted Darren Wilson.

    You mean those little pink spots on his cheek photographed at the police union office???  those spots that anyone can get from slapping their own cheek.

    If a police officer was pointing his weapon at your chest while saying I'm going to shoot you as he holds onto you with his other hand and won't let go, what would you do???

    Would you be justified in defending your life??? What would that entail???

    Parent

    Chip (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:36:02 AM EST
    By you standard Jesse James and Hitler weren't criminals.

    Parent
    Do you have a (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:59:03 AM EST
    copy of the Constitution???

    READ IT --

    Especially the Bill of Rights.

    Parent

    Mike Brown was a criminal? Really? (5.00 / 5) (#36)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 07:14:36 PM EST
    Golly, I must have missed the charges, the trial and the conviction, and also the drastic change to the sentencing laws that prescribe death by cop as an appropriate penalty.

    And by your standards, why are Tamir Rice and Eric Garner different?  Hadn't Tamir committed the crime of playing with a gun that looked too real and was scaring people, and hadn't Garner committed the crime of selling loose cigarettes?

    They aren't at all different.  They all have one thing in common: cops taking the law into their own hands, bypassing the judicial system and administering street justice.

    And you've bought into it: "Mike Brown was a criminal."  Meaning, what?  He deserved to be shot like a dog in the street?  Or that the only way to vindicate Wilson is to indict Brown?

    The physical evidence suggests what people want it to suggest, and that's why we have trials, isn't it?  To sort these things out.

    But, really, why bother with all that?  Let's let cops decide who's guilty and let them administer the penalties.  Let's throw out that innocent-until-proven-guilty thing and just trust in the police to get it right.  We can think of the "mistakes" as the same kind of collateral damage inflicted by drones.

     

    Parent

    For me the cases are different but... (none / 0) (#47)
    by Slado on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:07:29 AM EST
    The Garner case for me is a perfect example of a theme in law enforcement.   The over application of state power to execute the enforcement of petty crimes and even standard crimes.    For me these confrontations arise because our law-enforcement officers go from 0 to 60 in terms of force without trying to resolve issues in simpler and less violent ways.    Why so many officers? Why did he have to go to the ground with so many officers present?   Why couldn't they let the man calm down before resorting to violence?   Those to me are the questions that need answering.  Race is not an issue.   These things happen all the time to non blacks because in my view a culture has developed in law enforcement of the more military strategy of overwhelming force and the lack of skills or training for officers to calm things down with talk and patience instead of violence.   All those officers didn't have 5 or 10 more minutes to explain to Garner that unfortunately the afternoon was ending with him in cuffs?  Take your time, no need to get touchy with us.   There are more of us then you.   Let's just all settle down and get this over with.    Nope,  he seats at one or two guys arms and its a full blown fight.   Ridiculous.   The department is guilty and so is the officer who choked him and the commanding officer who let it all happen.

    The Rice case is similar to the Garner case more then the Brown case because to me the confusion of bad communication between the dispatchers and the officers on the scene propelled the two officers into a situation where they made assumptions about the suspect that were obviously not true but again this wasn't race related but more to do with the thought that driving in guns blazing was ever an acceptable solution at all without assessing the situation first.   Again same questions, what was the hurry?   How can you make any good decisions coming in that fast and with bad info?  

    Brown is a totally different story.   Physical evidence and most of the testimony show that he confronted Wilson.   Also I hate the double standard of not being allowed to question Browns character but constantly questioning Wilson's character and racial motivations.   If one deserves to get the benefit of doubt than they both deserve it.   And I'm sorry but Brown was partially responsible at the least.    Does that mean he deserved to be shot?   A strong argument could be made that he did not.  But I wasn't there so I can only go on what I have read and seen in terms of actual evidence and it's clear to me there was never a case against Ofc. Wilson.   All we can assert is he could have done something different but unlike the Rice and Garner case Brown was directly responsible for the reactions of Wilson through his actions.   That is just a reality.

    The only other common thread that can possibly put this together is race and in each case race takes on a totally different meaning.    

    For me race had nothing to do with Garner incident.  

    For Brown and Rice it is in the background but you can easily see officers of different races making the same decisions if put in the same place.   In the case of Rice it all happened so fast the cop would have shot anything he thought was pointing a gun at him.

    There are always issues of race when it comes to certain communities and the race of their officers but to argue that race is the common thread lacks evidence.  The actions and training of the police and the communication of the department are why these incidents happened.    

    For me we waste the ability to learn anything constructive from all three cases by focusing on race instead of how our police departments interact with all citizens of every color.

    Parent

    Slado, you write interesting comments (none / 0) (#77)
    by ZtoA on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:14:48 AM EST
    I somewhat see race relations in the US as similar to a caste system. In a system like that it does not matter, particularly, what race or race combo a person is - anyone can be more or less 'racist'. Anyone can be more or less invested in keeping the status-quo of the system. It is the system(s) (social, legal, political etc) that can be racist, and when they are the participants in the system(s) can reflect that.

    I've noticed that women can be as or more sexist than men. Females raise children to be sexist too, sometimes. Often it is not a particularly conscious way to pass attitudes along. Just feels comfortable, like how they were raised. Changing attitudes takes such a long time. My daughter's generation is different in attitudes than my mother's. Both my daughter and my mother are at my home for a week so I can see this clearly. My generation thought we were just going to change things - snap! - but we were wrong. But things are changing. Hope this is true for all the 'systems'.

    Parent

    Words have meanings Criminal (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:37:55 AM EST
    a person who has committed a crime.
    "these men are dangerous criminals"
    synonyms:    lawbreaker, offender, villain, delinquent, felon, convict, malefactor, wrongdoer, culprit, miscreant; More


    Parent
    An NFL player supported NYPD Sunday. (none / 0) (#24)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 03:38:55 PM EST
    Don't think any cops complained it was inappropriate . . .

    Parent
    When crime, family and politics collide: (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 04:21:45 PM EST
    The Los Angeles Times has posted a wonderful two-part investigative / human interest series, "The Favor," which exlores the extensive personal and political fallout that resulted from the controversial 11th-hour decision by then-Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in Jan. 2011 to commute the 16-year prison sentence of Esteban Nuñez, son of former State Assembly Speaker Fabian Nuñez.

    At the time, Esteban Nuñez was serving his time in Mile Creek State Prison, having pleaded guilty to felony manslaughter for his role in the stabbing death of 22-year-old Luis Dos Santos, which occurred during a random and unprovoked assault outside a San Diego State fraternity house in October 2008. (Several other young men were also injured in the attack, though none fatally.)

    It should also be noted that when Schwarzenegger commuted Esteban's sentence by half as he walked out the State Capitol's doors for the final time as governor, he pointedly failed to give the same consideration to Esteban's three accomplices in the crime, each of whom had similarly pleaded guilty and had received the same 16-year sentence.

    Schwarzenegger's action caused a huge public outcry and naturally fueled bitter accusations of political cronyism and favoritism, which probably encased in cement any hopes by either the now-former governor or his good friend Fabian Nuñez of ever resuming a political career. The backstory is both heartbreaking and fascinating, and while quite lengthy, it's definitely worth your time.

    Aloha.

    Court Declares Captive Orangutan (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 10:05:22 PM EST
     Is "Non-Human Person"

    An Argentinian court has decided that a Sumatran orangutan (Pongo abelii) named Sandra is a non-human person with rights, and will no longer be held captive in the Buenos Aires zoo where she has lived for the last 20 years. Sandra's case was taken up in November 2013 by the Association of Professional Lawyers for Animal Rights (AFADA). The lawyers argued that Sandra was intelligent and self-aware enough to understand and be negatively affected by her conditions, as well as being aware of the passage of time. The court agreed, and the judges unanimously voted in favor of a writ of habeas corpus for Sandra, deciding that she had been wrongfully imprisoned.

    I F'ing love science

    I hate zoos. The primate "exhibits" (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:15:44 AM EST
    are the worst. I don't know how anyone can look at their faces and not see, well, faces.  Desperately. Sad. Faces.

    Parent
    Agree (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:02:29 AM EST
    i hated zoos even as a child.  I've come to understand some of the good work they do but I find them very uncomfortable places.  As you say, particularly the primate cages.  And the big predators like cars and bears.

    Parent
    Orangs are incredibly (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:36:28 AM EST
    Wonderful images (none / 0) (#93)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:05:31 PM EST
    thanks for the link

    Parent
    St. Louis County Cops get another kill (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by scribe on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:49:22 AM EST
    Within the last few hours, St. Louis County police shot and killed an other 18 y/o black male, in sa burg near Ferguson, allegedly when he displayed a firearm at a gas station.

    Missouri remains an "open carry" state with high protections for the right to keep and bear arms.  At least if you're white.

    At this rate, the St. Louis County cops ought to start painting little black silhouettes on their cop cars.  

    Not to worry, Fox and Mayor Thugiani will find some way to blame the black guy and the cop will get a standing O from his bros when he comes back after paid administrative leave and a whitewash investigation.

    Merry f'g Christmas.

    The current reports indicate that (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by MO Blue on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 02:53:59 PM EST
    Antonio Martin pointed a gun at the officer before he was shot. Investigators recovered a 9mm handgun weapon that has been defaced (ie., serial number was unreadable). It is believed that no shots were fired from this gun. Also contained in local report:

    The officer involved in the shooting was assigned a body cam at roll call at the start of his shift, but it was handed off to him later in his shift. He didn't immediately put it on and he was not wearing it at the time of the shooting, Belmar said. The police vehicle was equipped with a dashboard camera, but authorities are unsure if it was activated. Those cameras are typically activated if the officer's lights atop the vehicle are switched on.

    Police do themselves no favors and IMO fuel mistrust when they choose not to wear (or turn on) the body cams  that are assigned to them.

    Parent

    Some facts, please (1.50 / 2) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 10:53:01 AM EST
    allegedly when he displayed a firearm at a gas station.

    From NBC News

    A white police officer shot a black teenager to death at a gas station in the city next door to Ferguson, Missouri, touching off clashes early Wednesday between demonstrators and law enforcement.

    The mayor said that video from the confrontation, in the city of Berkeley, appeared to show the teenager pointing a gun at the officer, and police said a handgun was recovered at the scene. Police said the officer feared for his life.

    Link

    And I have to wonder if it had been a black police officer would NBC news have published the race??

    I mean for years and years it has rightfully been pointed out that describing suspect by race is wrong.


    Parent

    This story is leading the news in Europe (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by scribe on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:06:36 AM EST
    and you're demanding a reason for making clear that, yet again, a white cop shot and killed a black kid?

    And playing semantics games?

    The mayor's statement, that the tape "appeared" to show a firearm, and my comment, that the kid "allegedly" displayed a firearm, are wholly consonant.

    You've been race-baiting on cops killing kids at least since Wilson killed Brown, back in August.  Why dontcha just pour some more liquor into your eggnog, put on your hood, and go hang with your like-minded friends down at the Klan hall.

    Merry Christmas.

    Parent

    My my you are a nasty one today (2.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:28:47 AM EST
    I point out the inaccuracy of your post and you throw a hissy fit.

    And yes. If we are to be a color blind society then we must be a color blind society. You can't have it both ways.

    And no. Saying he allegedly displayed a firearm is not the same as:

    appeared to show the teenager pointing a gun at the officer,

    But either way if you point or display a weapon when involved with the police you are likely to get shot.

    Police said the officer feared for his life.

    I would have been. And I would have pulled my weapon and shot. It is a reasonable thing to do.

    Parent

    Appeared to show (none / 0) (#79)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:19:49 AM EST
    Isn't very convincing.

    As for the firearm recovered, I'm guessing you've never heard of throw-down guns that some cops use to justify killing a suspect they know wan't armed.

    In fact here's a definition from Police Magazine:

    An untraceable gun dropped at a crime scene, usually left by an officer who needs to justify a bad shooting. Few cops carry throw downs, and even fewer admit to it. If you're caught with a throw down, your career is over.
    by Tim Dees on Jun 06, 2012



    Parent
    Appeared to show (none / 0) (#81)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:25:33 AM EST
    Isn't very convincing.

    As for the firearm recovered, I'm guessing you've never heard of throw-down guns that some cops use to justify killing a suspect they know wasn't armed.

    In fact here's a definition from Police Magazine:

    An untraceable gun dropped at a crime scene, usually left by an officer who needs to justify a bad shooting. Few cops carry throw downs, and even fewer admit to it. If you're caught with a throw down, your career is over.
    by Tim Dees on Jun 06, 2012

    I'd be willing to bet garbage to door nails the gun turns out to be untraceable, even if that makes me a cynic.


    Parent

    You have been watching (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:32:38 AM EST
    detective stories again.

    lol

    But since it is doubtful it was legally owned/carried by the dead suspect you may be right.

    And you a cynic?? Nah. Biased against the police? Yes.

    Parent

    Yes, given the recent police shootings (none / 0) (#85)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:39:31 AM EST
    Of unarmed men across the country, to express skepticism at this point in time just shows 'bias against the police' in your world.

    Parent
    Well, now you understand (2.00 / 1) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:44:18 AM EST
    my position in regards to the political cultures in Mexico, CA and SA.

    Parent
    Sure, their cops are corrupt, (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:52:04 AM EST
    ours are heroic, even when they suffocate a man in NYC or shoot a 12-year old for carrying a plastic gin that wasn't aimed at anyone at the time of the shooting.

    Glad you could clear that up for us in the peanut gallery.

    Parent

    Such shallow thinking (2.00 / 1) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:01:04 PM EST
    and displayed lack of intellectual depth is truly breath taking.

    No wonder you keep going off on tangents.

    BTW - Suffocate means:

    die or cause to die from lack of air or inability to breathe.

    Do you own a dictionary????


    Parent

    And you accused (5.00 / 4) (#97)
    by Zorba on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:26:19 PM EST
    Scribe earlier of being nasty?
    You can't take it, but you can dish it out.
    Before you criticize the mote in another's eye, take care of the log in your own.

    Parent
    Really?? (2.00 / 1) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:07:41 PM EST
    Why do you think anyone should not note the nasty comments others make??

    BTW - I have reviewed my comments I made to his original post.

    There's no nasty there. Just a note that his comment is inaccurate.

    Your problem is that you disagree with me so therefore anything I write is nasty.

    And I don't mind that. If it makes you feel better to snark please be my guest.

    Parent

    "Shallow thinking" (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by Zorba on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 05:09:13 PM EST
    And "lack of intellectual depth" is not nasty?
    That's not commenting that his comment is inaccurate.  That's insulting him.
    But you just keep on keeping on, Jim.  Whatever you say you seem to think is perfectly reasonable, no matter the insults you fling around.  But whenever anyone else calls you on it, you get your panties all in a twist.
    Learn to take it as much as you dish it out, Jim, and perhaps people here might just take you a bit more seriously.
    Namaste.

    Parent
    That you fail to recognize the (2.00 / 1) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 05:55:29 PM EST
    nasty and sarcastic tone of Mondriggian's
    comment is not surprising...

    Would you like to comment on Scribe's snark?

    Why dontcha just pour some more liquor into your eggnog, put on your hood, and go hang with your like-minded friends down at the Klan hall.

    And my hateful response?

    My my you are a nasty one today
    I point out the inaccuracy of your post and you throw a hissy fit


    Parent
    I was not speaking about their comments, (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by Zorba on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 06:19:22 PM EST
    Jim. I was speaking about your response, which included, as I said, your remarks about "shallow thinking" and "lack of intellectual depth."
    Not just what you quoted above.
    This is so typical of you.  You pick and chose, but refuse to acknowledge the rest of it.  Since when are those words of yours not insulting?
    Perhaps people might take you a bit more seriously if you did not constantly do this.
    Deflect, attack, and pick and chose selectively.  That's pretty much always been your modus operandi.  You're not fooling anyone, except, perhaps, yourself.
    I feel sorry for you.
    And I think that we are done here.  Have a Merry Christmas, assuming you can get into the true spirit of the season.

    Parent
    The unintentional hilarity contained in (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:26:54 PM EST
    your comment, jim, is really something.

    Why, it's like you're just suffocating us with a constant stream of "breath-taking" comments.

    I'd say that maybe Santa would bring you some of the intellectual depth many of us have been hoping you'd eventually acquire, but I suspect that your constant rationalizations for torture, drone killings, and cop-imposed street justice - to name but a few of your interests - are going to keep you on his "naughty" list, and if shared with Jesus, are likely to have far worse repercussions for you than just the coal in your stocking you must be getting tired of getting year after year.

    If you have to bring your own fuel to that place that isn't heaven, jim, you are going to be set for quite some time!

    Parent

    Really, Anne? (2.00 / 1) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:14:37 PM EST
    It is not proper to ask that when people comment about an action that has had national attention that they be accurate??

    I did not know that.

    And yes, I pray that we will continue to have hard men doing hard things that the rest of us can't.

    Here educate yourself.

    Parent

    Quit holding Jim (none / 0) (#101)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:39:12 PM EST
    to the same standards that he asks of other commentators here.


    Parent
    You are correct (none / 0) (#94)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:08:43 PM EST
    I should've cited the autopsy report:

    An autopsy found that the manner of death for Eric Garner, 43, was homicide, the medical examiner said in a statement. While the report found that Mr. Garner's poor health was a contributing factor, it was not the primary cause of his death.

    Thanks for the correction!

    Parent

    Red states (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:25:36 PM EST
    using Obamacare to rip off the people who vote for them. link

    Ironically the law was designed to help raise the standards in the poorest areas of the country but apparently the governors of these states want poor people to suffer more. But hey, apparently they like being treated badly by the likes of Nathan Deal.

    Spoke with one yesterday (none / 0) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:36:32 PM EST
    she needed medical care so they drove about 30 miles to a free clinic, most are closing down since the ACA, and waited all day.  Literally all day. To see a doctor.  I asked why she had not signed up for insurance and was bathed in idiotic right wing talking points.  I didn't even argue this one.

    Might be harsh, but sometimes, some people, get the care they deserve.  You can lead a jackass to water.....

    Parent

    Yep (4.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 07:15:53 PM EST
    if they're willing to let themselves be brown beaten because the GOP tells them they're better than those "other people" I say have at it.

    Parent
    Yeah, Brownback.. (none / 0) (#116)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:02:50 PM EST
    in Kansas..
    In an ironic twist, the vociferously anti-health reform governor is also relying on Obamacare to help fill the state's budget gap; Brownback is transferring $55 million in revenue from a Medicaid drug rebate program expanded in the Affordable Care Act into the state's general fund.


    Parent
    Champurrado (none / 0) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 09:18:30 PM EST
    Ever have this?  I made dinner tonight for some friends in town for the holidays and they brought all the stuff and made Champurrado.  Amazing stuff.

    The Athiest 10 Commandments (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Dec 23, 2014 at 09:48:34 PM EST
    just n time for the holidays-

    1.  Be open minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.

    2.  Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
    3.  The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.

    4.  Every person has the right to control over their body.

    5.  God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life.

    6.  Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognise that you must take responsibility for them.

    7.  Treat others as you would want them to treat you and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.

    8.  We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations.

    9.  There is no one right way to live.

    10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.


    #9 is needs a rewrite (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Slado on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:12:51 AM EST
    #9. - Treat others as you would treat yourself.

    Merry Christmas!

    :)

    Parent

    Ahhhh (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Slado on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:39:03 AM EST
    Sorry.   Just read #7.

    I just think #9 needs to be tied to #7 because you can choose to lead a very selfish life that violates #7.

    In the spirit of Christmas this is what A Christmas Carol was all about.  There are bad ways to live if they violate #7.   What I do agree with you on is lifestyle choices are personal and nobody else' should judge them if they don't violate #7.  

    Parent

    Just because there is more than... (none / 0) (#142)
    by unitron on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:30:48 PM EST
    ...one right way to live does not mean that every way to do it is right.

    There's also more than one wrong way to live.

    I think #9 is fine just like it is.

    Parent

    The Sufis used to say that (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:51:03 AM EST
    other people are yourself..

    "I am I because You are You.."

    Hang in there, Slado. Peace and Joy to you and your loved ones.

    Parent

    Howdy, no reasonable person would (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 11:17:39 AM EST
    argue that these rules are bad.

    But they beg the question.

    How do you get morality maintained in society if you have no mechanism to teach it??

    We don't teach it in school. We don't teach it in popular media. Our culture celebrates "have it your way" and "if it feels good do it."  

    How would you pass your commandments on to our children?

    Parent

    I didn't learn "morality" (5.00 / 6) (#104)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 01:58:18 PM EST
    In church.  I'm an atheist.

    In school.  I was a National Merit Scholar, but they don't teach that stuff in school.  What I was taught in school was that even though I was smarter, I was not the physical equal of the guys who beat me up in gym class.  That gave me empathy, which I consider the basis for morality.

    Whatever the cause, somehow I learned morality.  69 years old, never been arrested.  Managed to change the world more than most, for the better.  Still married to my first wife, our daughter was an honor student all the way through college.

    How do you explain that?

    Parent

    Thank you (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 03:00:47 PM EST
    As absurd as it was that needed a response and mine would probably have been deleted.

    Parent
    Howdy, you regularly (2.00 / 3) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 03:58:08 PM EST
    violate your stated commandments.

    Parent
    As do you (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:15:47 PM EST
    Given the number of time you've accused others (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:19:27 PM EST
    of bearing false witness here, this is no surprise whatsoever.

    Parent
    I can't help that you do such things. (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 05:57:08 PM EST
    You have requested a number of people (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 06:15:04 PM EST
    here over the years to: "Please stop making things up" for a while now.  

    If you're not proud of that, I can't help that you do such things.

    Parent

    I'm going to guess... (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by unitron on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:32:22 PM EST
    ...that whoever raised you might have had some influence.

    Parent
    Okay, it worked for you... or so you say (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 03:56:46 PM EST
    Whatever the cause, somehow I learned morality

    And I don't explain it. That was my question.

    But I'm not sure that not being arrested is an all encompassing definition of moral. I'm sure Dr King would not.

    What you are saying, I think, is that you needed no outside help to learn The Rules Of Life and have had a long and successful one by following them.

    That I buy. Now, do you say that morality, moral actions if you please, is the base position for all men?? And if it is not, then what should we do?

    Parent

    Do you really believe yourself (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:15:25 PM EST
    to be an example of morality?

    Parent
    Nope, I regard myself as someone (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 06:31:38 PM EST
    who tries.

    Just as I am sure Repack regards himself the same.

    And I wager you do the same.

    But perhaps the larger question would be, as we celebrate the birth of Christ, in what way does our understanding of morality match His teachings?

    Parent

    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 07:24:27 PM EST

    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
    4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

    P
    Mathew 7, 1-5

    Parent
    I wish you great success in following those (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 11:29:04 AM EST
    wise words.

    Parent
    Don't know what Martin Luther or (none / 0) (#156)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 12:02:25 PM EST
    The other Protestant thinkers made of the verses I quoted, but this is what Catholics believe, even though I am a collapsed Catholic, it still makes sense to me:

    Chapter 7

    Verse 1: Judge not. Christ does not here prohibit the public judgments of magistrates, by which they condemn the guilty and absolve the innocent, but only private judgments, and only when they are rash, envious, detractive. For we have not been set to be judges but companions of our neighbors. If we have an evil opinion of our neighbor, we do him an injury and we take away his good name if we let this judgment be heard by others. So S. Jerome, Bede, and Basil. There is hardly any one who is found to be free from this fault."
    St. Augustine: "Concerning those things, then, which are known to God, unknown to us, we judge our neighbors at our peril. Of this the Lord has said, Judge not. But concerning things which are open and public evils, we may and ought to judge and correct, but still with charity and love, hating not the man, but the sin, detesting not the sick man, but the disease.
    That you may not be judged. St. Augustine: "The your rashness in punishing another will punish yourself. Injustice always injures him who does the wrong."

    Acts 6:3 - pick 7 men of good reputation to be deacons;
    Acts 16:2 - the brethren give good testimony in regards to Timothy;
    Romans 16:17 - mark those who make dissensions and offenses and avoid them.
    1 Cor. 6:1-5 - judge, judge, judge.
    1 Cor. 10:15 - judge for yourself what I say.
    1 Cor. 11:13 - judge for yourself.

    Verse 2: With what measure. If you show yourself kind in judging, then will others judge you kindly.
    Our measure cannot equal God's. His severity and His mercy both far surpass ours, yet His severity is less than our faults. For God punishes sin less than it deserves. S. James says, "Detract not one of another, my brethren. He that detracts his brother, or judges his brother, detracts the law, and judges the law" (4:11)

    Verse 3: The mote, bit of straw, or chaff, or tiny particle of wood. The mote signifies little faults and defects; the beam denotes greater crimes.

    Now, in terms of morality, seems quite clear that a Christian has no grounds on which to base a judgement of a persons private morality based on Christian standards.  That would be like asking, how high is the sky.  

    It also seems clear to me that judging based on public information is allowed, but with the condition that the sin is to be despised, not the sinner.

    Now, I'll give you a example of Matt 7 in my personal life.

    Many years ago, I was driving with my sister in San Jose, and we were at a stoplight next to

    Parent

    (cont) (none / 0) (#157)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 12:08:23 PM EST
    A sports car driven by a young African-American man, who was sporting a lot of gold chains and jewelry, and clearly had no money worries.

    My sister, who is a nurse, said that he was a drug dealer and how much she hated them for the misery they cause to the buyers and their families.

    I replied that she was drawing a conclusion from inadequate evidence, that there was probably another explaination for his apperance, and,that for all she knew, he was a rapper, or a pimp, or an executive with exquisitely bad taste.

    Hope this helps!

    Parent

    A question based on (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 02:31:13 PM EST
    Now, in terms of morality, seems quite clear that a Christian has no grounds on which to base a judgement of a persons private morality based on Christian standards.  That would be like asking, how high is the sky.

    What is private morality?? Do you mean that what you do doesn't matter but what you meant?

    How would that work out?? "I am a moral person and rarely get drunk so don't call me a murderer just because I had a few too many last night and killed John and his family with my car."

    Morality is always on display and while the only perfect man was born 2014 years ago, it is right we have standards and that we judge. Civilization is based on that.

    That we all have some double standards should be of no surprise.

    But to continue.  

    I take it that you are for very lax immigration laws. That means that we have a continual influx of undocumented workers who act as a cheap source of manual labor.

    Since labor is a commodity this large and continual source depresses the ability of the workers here to improve their wages and working conditions. This obviously harms them but helps you by keeping the cost of fruits and vegetables low.

    Your support for the current system is obviously immoral.

    Now, your sister was profiling based on her experience. She may have been right or she may have been wrong. But either way all she accomplished was igniting your over inflated ego and too large desire to play "Hall Captain."

    lol and a Merry Christmas

    Parent

    That is, you can't (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 03:51:40 PM EST
    Judge a person of sins or things you don't know about their private life, that is, say someone is a drunkard, without some public evidence like getting busted on a DUI, etc.

    As for your assertions about the most perfect man, that's all they are, assertions.  And, unless you believe in some sort of Christan heresy, he was also of divine nature, so saying he was he only perfect man misses the point of the Incarnation in the first place.  If you want to be technical and say that you're a Monophysite, that would be acceptable, even if a bit old-fashioned.  😀

    No, I'm not for lax immigration laws, I live in a part of the country where that might be true for the farmers around here.

    As a dyed in the wool liberal, I want some sort of system so that people don't have to sneak across the border in order to work here, and that if they do, the employers are punished severely.  I want a way for the people over here already to have a chance if  they haven't broken any laws, to have a path to residence or citizenship.  And I wante chickensh*t demonizing of illegal immigrants to stop as well.  I want the exploitation of illegals to stop, which with lax border controls would be increased.

    But please, it's a great honor to have my political beliefs detailed with exactly zero evidence behind them.  If you have any links to past comments of mine that could be read the way you read them, that would be interesting, but this will be a great Christmas present by itself.

    Merry Christmas, and Happy New  Year.

    Parent

    Oh, and BTW, my sister got a good laugh (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 03:56:29 PM EST
    Out of it, and agreed with me that she may have been overtly hasty making such a judgement based on a first impression.

    How odd that you, of all people should be worried about someone being egotistical and trying to play Hail Chief on my part.

    Projection doesn't just happen in movie theaters, apparently.

    Parent

    Some follow up (none / 0) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 07:52:55 PM EST
    That is, you can't Judge a person of sins or things you don't know about their private life, that is, say someone is a drunkard, without some public evidence like getting busted on a DUI, etc.

    Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. You don't need to know a persons private sins/life/whatever to judge what they have done in public.

    And I always enjoy lectures on religion from an admitted lapsed Catholic.

    Now, you may not be for lax immigration laws:

    As a dyed in the wool liberal, I want some sort of system so that people don't have to sneak across the border in order to work here,

    But what you want is exactly what is causing the problem.... an endless supply of cheap labor...that I wrote of.

    Congratulations on refusing to recognize the problem.

    As for your political views, you are to the Left of Liberal.

    Parent

    Nope, I want it regulated (none / 0) (#164)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 at 07:43:24 AM EST
    If you think American farmers are going to pay Americans the wages said Americans would accept for back-breaking farm labor, then you really are delusional about how things are in this country.

    As for the lapsed Catholic, I'm sorry that as a professing Christian, you yourself seen to have never taken Matt 7 to heart yet.

    As for my political views, let me explain them to you.

    What does labor want? We want more school houses and less jails. More books and less guns. More learning and less vice. More leisure and less greed. More justice and less revenge. We want more ... opportunities to cultivate our better natures.

    Samuel Gompers

    And of course, you're a middle of the road social liberal, who happens to watch Fox News and reads conservative blogs.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Oh, and try to be less nasty in response when someone tells a family or personal story.  You of all people show know that it defines you and not in a good way.

    Thanks for taking Matt 7 to heart this time around.

    Parent

    So you think that it is okay for (none / 0) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 26, 2014 at 08:31:01 AM EST
    people to be paid poorly and have terrible working conditions so we can have cheap veggies and fruits?
    And it isn't just farm labor. It is construction at all levels.

    You cannot claim to be a liberal while accepting that. And quoting someone about what labor wants while undercutting labor's ability to obtain a fair wage and working conditions is hypocritical.

    And yes, I watch FNC, CNN, MSNBC, PBS and read conservative and liberal blogs. It helps me obtain a balanced perspective. Try it sometimes.

    Nasty?? Really?? My comment had nothing to do with your family. It was directed at you.

    Parent

    Nope, never said that (none / 0) (#166)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 at 08:49:16 AM EST
    Why do you have a habit of twisting around my positions to make yourself look good in comparison?

    And how are you going to get the farmers to be willing to pay for American laborers who will demand reasonable wages instead of what the farmers pay their workers now?  Are you going to mandate the wages they pay?  That's not very free -market or socially liberal of you, is it?

    And if you think my quote is hypocritical, then you haven't been paying attention to what I wrote earlier in this thread.

    I want good conditions for all workers, be they America, Mexican, etc. if they work for American employers.
    I also want the laborers to be able to come and work here legally, and to be able to stay here permanently if they keep their record clean while working here.  Something like the braceros programs of the past, but in favor of the workers as well as the employers.

    As fo Fox News, you never quote from any of the other news sources you mention, so I have to say that when you find the other channels you mention equally interesting and quote from them, that would be a welcome change.

    Now.  Do you want to keep arguing about it, distorting my positions again, taking up Jeralyns' bandwidth, or can we agree to disagree and let it go at that?  Because when you attempt to smear me, you only demonstrate your own inadequacies when it comes to having an honest discussion with somebody else.

    Take care of your own beams before worrying about anyone with a mote in their own eye, Jim.  You'll be much happier for it in the long run.

    Parent

    Quo Vadis (none / 0) (#167)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 08:34:33 AM EST
    I don't think I have misunderstood or misstated your position. You wrote:

    "As a dyed in the wool liberal, I want some sort of system so that people don't have to sneak across the border in order to work here,"

    "Nope, I want it regulated (none / 0) (#164)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 at 06:43:24 AM CST "

    "I also want the laborers to be able to come and work here legally"

    What that means is a continual stream of undocumented and/or documented workers coming into the country seeking jobs in construction and farming.

    And the reason for your claim? Well, your claim is the same as the Chamber  of Commerce and many small business  so-called conservative Repubs. That I don't believe you mean it is not  important.

    "And how are you going to get the farmers to be willing to pay for American laborers who will demand reasonable wages instead of what the farmers pay their workers now? Are you going to mandate the wages they pay?  That's not very free -market or socially liberal of you, is it?"

    You just let the market work. A scarcity of labor will force the farmers and the construction industries to either pay more or go out of business. And yes, prices will rise but no one said you have a right to enjoy life on the backs of workers.

    And, as someone who watched as his father worked to establish a union shop I remember how enjoyable his increased wages and vacation times were. And ....gasp.... the local merchants had to increase their employees' wages.  

    So what you claim to want is in exact opposite to what the results of the Democratic policies and national Rebups will keep from happening.

    And I could link to numerous articles from CNN, USAToady, WSJ, WaPost, NYTimes, but why bother? You'll just find another frivolous claim to use to try and reframe the discussion.

    As for Jeralyn's bandwidth,  I encourage you to quit quoting long passages when short ones will do and also to contribute some  money. A PayPal account is easy to establish and works great.

    Have a nice day!


    Parent

    What part of legal and regulated when they (none / 0) (#168)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 08:52:06 AM EST
    Come here don't you understand, Jim?  How does that mean I want undocumented workers here?

    If you keep having to re-interprete what I say so that I fit your Leftie stereotype again, that"s your problem, not mine.

    As for your father and unions, well, Reagan took car if that, union membership is lower in this country than ever before, so please don't use a dead man to plea for policies like not cracking down on those who employe illegals(and somehow, you missed my statements that employers of illegals should be fined heavily).

    It's not that you are deliberately dishonest, Jim, it's that you're so determined that I believe what you think "legal and regulated" is the same as open borders, that you ignore my plain words to say what I believe in, but you're determined to say that I want unregulated, wide-open borders, despite the clear meaning of what I've written here on is thread.

    Oh, and BTW, I have a question from some of us in the librul/Leftie community:

    What's it like to be standing still and still be the center of the Universe?

    Moats and beams, Jim, along with the exhortation not to bear false witness, which you're doing right now.  If you have any doubts in this area, I suggest you consult your spiritual adviser or the lead pastor/minister at whatever church you attend.

    Thanks for demonstrating what a so-called social liberal is really all about.


    Parent

    Pleae don't tell me chip in (none / 0) (#169)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 09:04:36 AM EST
    because I won't have to repeat myself if you weren't so insistent on moving the goalposts and declaring yourself the winner.

    Your attitude stinks.  Quit wasting so many words trying to prove that I meant the opposite of what I wrote, you'd be doing her a better favor than donating 100$ to her PayPal account would do.

    Parent

    I am sorry (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 10:26:33 AM EST
    if I hit a nerve, but what you claim to want is more documented and undocumented workers.  

    I gave you four quotes.

    I added undocumented based on your support for allowing the people flood last spring/summer and my belief, correct me if I am wrong, that you are against doing whatever necessary to close the border.

    Labor is a commodity. As long as there is a huge over supply that will work cheaply it cannot improve its wages or working conditions.

    Union membership is down for several reasons that have nothing to do with Reagan bringing a government union under control.

    The demand for manual labor has decreased and many see the unions  corrupt. And it is hard to explain why the Unions, staunch supporters of Obama, do not oppose Obama's immigration policies that are flooding the work place with people who take union jobs. This particularly true in the construction trades.

    You have impeached yourself. All I am doing is pointing out the consequences of your beliefs.

    And it costs nothing to establish a PayPal account.

    I close with this. If I am wrong that you don't support policies that are harmful to the farm and construction workers, then please explain why an oversupply of workers doesn't depress wages?


    Parent

    Quit repeating yourself (none / 0) (#171)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 10:32:21 AM EST
    And accept what I wrote instead of bringing up unions and labor and the like, and accept that we have differences, instead of your continous campaign pose as the one with all your answers.

    You can look to Georgia and Alabama as to the results of forrnidding undocumented workers to do farm labor.  If you are half the techie you claim to be, you'll be able to reseach and perhaps even learn from what happened in those states.

    But then, I was one of the people who clapped their hands for Timkerbelle, so what do I know?

    Have a good day!

    Parent

    I repeat not (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 04:17:43 PM EST
    me but you.

    Way back in the beginning you decided to give me a lesson in morality. And I brought up the question of our current immigration laws as a test. I noted that I believed you were for our lax immigration laws. You rejected that.

    "No, I'm not for lax immigration laws, I live in a part of the country where that might be true for the farmers around here."

    And then you lectured that

    "I want some sort of system so that people don't have to sneak across the border in order to work here,

    to have a path to residence or citizenship.

     I want the exploitation of illegals to stop, which with lax border controls would be increased."


    Exactly. We have lax immigration laws which has led to millions of undocumented workers in the country and that has harmed our own documented workers, both both born here and naturalized as well as the new and continued stream of undocumented workers.

    Here I do repeat myself. Labor is a commodity and by supporting the current system you depress the value of labor.

    That  destroys the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" bit you claim to embrace.

    The current system is supported by both the Democrats and  so-called main line Repubs. It is often said that the Demos want the votes and the Repubs want the cheap labor. I have no doubt that this aptly describes both.  

    I remember well hearing a small shoe store owner expound while cursing about the union movement that no man was worth more than seventy five cents an hour.

    All the other banding about is side dishes.  Yes, the unions have betrayed labor. Yes the Repubs don't give a flip about labor.

    Yes the farmers in AL and GA couldn't hire people. Whether that was because they didn't offer enough or even if the American labor source could ever be persuaded to work short of starving I do not know.

    I do know that the current system cannot continue to work. The peoples of the world will not do our menial labor forever.

    My solution is simple. Give the undocumented workers who are here green cards.  If they desire citizenship they must return to their native lands and get in line.

    Close the border tighter than a ticks ear. If that takes military then bring them home from Europe.

    And be prepared to face shortages as the market adjusts. We're big people. Surely we can do without  lettuce every day.

    Parent

    The problem is (none / 0) (#173)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 04:48:25 PM EST
    that Americans won't work for the wages that are paid to farm laborers so

    Here I do repeat myself. Labor is a commodity and by supporting the current system you depress the value of labor.

    Again, what part of legalize and regulate don't you understand.  That, along with severe penalties for employers, isn't supporting the current system/

    As for my mortality, I don't claim to be a Christian, and your tendency to take potshots and caricature my position puts you in the zany category.

    Have a good life, Jim.

    Parent

    A solution (none / 0) (#174)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 06:56:21 PM EST
    that you fail to accept says much.

    Legalize and regulate by itself doesn't work. By itself all it does is make legal a system that undercuts labor.

    Close the borders and force the agriculture and construction industries to compete for labor.

    It won't be easy but then the actual struggle, which you may have read about and I had front row seat, was never easy.

    As for your "mortality" I agree that we all shall slip this mortal coil.

    Parent

    Oh, I made a spelling mistake. (none / 0) (#175)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 07:39:40 PM EST
    What a triumph you have over me today?

    Seriously, your understanding of labor issues is as primitive as your theology.

    Parent

    Perhaps a Freudian slip??? (none / 0) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 10:07:13 PM EST
    And don't be discouraged. I make so many mistakes I can truthfully claim to be the poster boy for spelling and English.

    Parent
    I find it fascinating (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 10:18:10 PM EST
    how many American right wingers have a sudden concern for the welfare and rights of American workers now that more brown people who might not vote Republican are in this country.

    And as soon as the discussion shifts away from immigration, so goes away right winger's concern for the welfare of American workers.

    Parent

    I agree, jondee. Hypocrites abound (none / 0) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 12:13:56 PM EST
    in both parties and in big labor. The Demos want the votes and the mainstream Repubs want the labor.

    Big Labor is even worse. It wants to flood the labor market with cheap labor... thus insuring that agriculture and construction don't have to worry about paying higher wages or improving working conditions.

    And then we have Mordiggian crying crocodile tears over the farmers in AL and GA having trouble getting  labor because Americans won't work for what the farmers want to pay. Having him worrying about the ruling class is funny.

     

    Parent

    A lot of those farms were small ones (none / 0) (#188)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 12:26:22 PM EST
    Jim, hardly representative of "The Ruling Class" but, please, explain how a small farmer facing losses because their crops can't get picked is something to, as you put it here frequently, "lol" about.

    Parent
    Well, "a lot" is not "all" (none / 0) (#191)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:08:39 PM EST
    You don't provide any information as to size and  numbers.

    And the facts of the matter is that there will be supply chain disruptions and some people will be hurt more than others.

    As an example, when union shops come in non-union shops also raise their employee wages. I saw this first hand when the union my father was in was certified a few months later the factory where my mother worked gave out raises.

    My father bought a new truck which both the local dealer and Detroit appreciated.

    Which is one of the reasons I don't oppose increasing the minimum wage.

    A rising tide lifts all ships.

    Parent

    Just like many doesn't (none / 0) (#193)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:19:17 PM EST
    mean all Lefties are part of a "Blame America First" crowd?

    As for what the labor movement and unions want for undocumented workers:

    For far too long, our broken immigration system has allowed employers to drive down wages and working conditions in our country.  The brunt of the impact has been born by immigrant workers, who face the highest rates of wage theft, sexual harassment, and death and injury on the job.  But our entire workforce suffers when we allow standards to erode as millions of workers struggle to support their families without the status to assert their rights.

    Fixing our broken system in a way that is consistent with labor's framework for comprehensive immigration reform will remain a core priority of the AFL-CIO, despite disgraceful setbacks in federal legislative efforts.

    In the meantime, the president has clear legal authority to grant temporary relief to a broad class of workers, and we call upon him to act immediately to protect our American work standards. Employers must no longer be able to use the threat of deportation as a weapon to keep workers from asserting their rights or enforcing standards on the job.

    As for the problems in GA and AL with crops not getting,picked because of the lack of farm workers, I refer you to that new "search engine"' as they call it, I believe, Google, that all the techies have been talking about.  You'll find it most useful, and easy to navigate as well.


    Parent

    What labor describes in this (none / 0) (#195)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:34:58 PM EST
    is what I have posted.

    They want more Demos.

    And they want more undocumented workers because they see them as voters or voters to be.

    That more workers mean lower pay doesn't bother them.

    The modern day union is corrupt.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#200)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 02:01:24 PM EST

    But our entire workforce suffers when we allow standards to erode as millions of workers struggle to support their families without the status to assert their righto

    Yeah, they want them to work for lower pay, all the talk of eroding standards is that, just talk.

    What color is the sky in your world?

    Parent

    Freud would have a great time (none / 0) (#182)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 05:39:52 AM EST
    Trying to figure out owl your neuroses and phobias.  He'd also tell you to quit checking under your bed each night for jihadis.

    Parent
    I trust that Freud wouldn't do that (none / 0) (#186)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 11:46:10 AM EST
    I trust that he would know that reasonable people don't worry unnecessarily... But they do know disease and bad things exist and keep a calm and watchful look out.

    Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial.

    The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
     

    Link

    Which are you, Mordiggian?


    Parent

    The nearest thing I can think of (none / 0) (#189)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 12:29:21 PM EST
    That is the nearest thing to sheep in American society are those who watch Fox News on a regular basis, so I'm obvious not one of those.

    Any more "trick questions"' oh font of misinformation?

    Parent

    So you fit the sheepdog description? (none / 0) (#192)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:18:48 PM EST
    Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

    As Kipling said in his poem about "Tommy" the British soldier:

    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that,
    an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir,"
    when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys,
    there's trouble in the wind,
     O it's "Please to walk in front, sir,"
    when there's trouble in the wind.

    Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

    Link

    I am proud of you. I would have never thought it.

    Parent

    Keep smearing, Jim. (none / 0) (#194)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:25:34 PM EST
    Ther's more to life than sheep and sheepdogs, although I can think of any number of Fox News anchors who could live up to your description, with the possible exception of Shepard Smith.  

    Because a Shepard can't be a sheepdog at the same time, right?

    Anyway, Jim, you'll never hit on a correct description for me because that would require you to do the one thing in the world that you fear the most: Looking beyond your sclerotic, biased, nasty, privileged view to see how things might appear to someone else.

    Parent

    Smearing?? I wrote that I was proud of you (none / 0) (#196)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:46:19 PM EST
    Can't accept a compliant, eh??

    And why do you worry so much about FNC? Are you trying to change the subject??

    Say what?? The shepherd and the sheepdog are one and the same. They are an interchangeable team.

    Mordiggian, I have seen more of the real world than you, most likely, never will. In fact, I pray that you don't because it is a nasty place.

    Then, in the other corner, there is the Grey Tribe - the grey of reinforced concrete. This is a Tribe where emotion is repressed because Emotion Clouds Judgment. This is the world of Quadratic Equations and Stress Risers and Loads Torsional, Compressive and Tensile, a place where Reality Can Ruin Your Best Day, the place where Murphy mercilessly picks off the Weak and the Incompetent, where the Speed Limit is 186,282.36 miles per second, where every bridge has a Failure Load and levees come in 50 year, 100 year and 1000 Year Flood Flavors.

    The Grey Tribe motto is, near as I can tell, THINGS BREAK SOMETIMES AND PLEASE DON'T LET IT BE MY BRIDGE.

    link

    Parent

    I' m sorry but if seeing the (none / 0) (#198)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:58:10 PM EST
    World is your standard, an airline pilot who flies internationally supersedes us both in that department.

    As for it being a nasty place: if I hadn't known that before making your acquantance, any doubts were quickly exstinguised very shortly afterwards.

    Parent

    please remember the death of Jesus (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by FlJoe on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 07:34:24 PM EST
    by torture

    Parent
    I don't understand the question (5.00 / 5) (#125)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 05:10:00 PM EST
    "Morality" has been preached ad nauseum by immoral people.  How many "family values" politicians have been caught red-handed in sexual imbroglios?  As the wag noted, when the Devil comes for America, He will be carrying a Bible and wearing a flag pin on the lapel of his Armani suit.

    I would suggest that the more someone harps on "morality" the less moral they are.  Otherwise, why bother?  I didn't teach my kid morality.  I just went to work every day, loved my family and told them so daily, and somehow demonstrating what a responsible adult does seemed to be enough.

    As far as "not being arrested," it's one stat that suggests I lead a lawful life.  I mentioned that my marriage is permanent and faithful.  I am well-respected in my community.  A few days ago I was riding my bike and a guy I had met one time addressed me by name, so I stopped and talked to him.  He showed me that he carried my 35 year old business card in his wallet.  (I signed it for him.)  That ever happen to you?

    How would you suggest I demonstrate to you that I lead a "moral" life?

    Parent

    You don't owe jim anything, Rider. (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 05:52:02 PM EST
    He's just having a good ol' time putting people on the defensive with his obnoxious and pretend questions.

    How do we teach morality?  By living moral lives, by being examples our children and those around us can emulate and carry forward.

    I suspect that where this is all leading is to a diatribe on the war on religion, how, if only the evil government hadn't taken God out of the classroom, society would be so much better off.

    So, don't fall for it; sooner or later, he'll get his feet all tangled up in his own wacky logic and fractured facts and do a pratfall and land right in the middle of one of his own steaming piles.

    It's Christmas Eve, and the choice seems to be to let him be the Grinch, or give ourselves the gift of ignoring him.

    Parent

    The issue of morality has came to the surface (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 06:47:48 PM EST
    by what happened in Ferguson.

    Why did Brown rob the store??

    Why do politicians, and others, preach morality and be snared by their failings?

    It is, I think, the human failing.

    And what you did is what I, and millions of others, have done with our families. I am sure you also made some "moral" points to him along the way.

    But that isn't the issue or the larger subject of this conversation. The issue is that millions of children are being born with out a father present and raised without that role model teaching morals by example. And the murders and killings and people in prison show that we have a failed them.

    So how do we teach them? That we are failing is self evident.

    We all like to recognized and remembered. I speak regularly with people I met and worked with in the 50's and later. But, I confess, they don't ask me to sign my business card. So you definitely have one upped me in the validation department.

    Parent

    I think that quote... (none / 0) (#144)
    by unitron on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:39:54 PM EST
    ...is actually one often attributed to Sinclair Lewis and sometimes to Huey Long--

     "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

    except for the pesky detail that it may not actually be a quote but the end result of several different sentiments of those two gentlemen and several others during the '30s that somehow got "mashedup" together.

    Parent

    Perhaps it is closer than we think. (none / 0) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 11:34:09 AM EST
    Morality is hard to define (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by FlJoe on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 06:15:51 PM EST
    Best I can come up with is the absence of immorality. Immorality is easier, to paraphrase the judge, I can't define it but I know it when I see it. I see torture and I see immorality. So to me anybody who engages in torture or anyway endorses or apologizes for it is therefore an immoral person. I would never put myself up as a paragon of virtue or morals but the subject of torture has long been litigated by better men me and the judgement is overwhelming  in support of my position. I do not like to judge people but I am very comfortable calling out any and all of the Apologists as Immoral with a capital I and spit in your I and I,I,I, I can hardly take it any more. Maybe Santa is immoral for bringing me this bottle    
     of Wild Turkey but anyways Merry Christmas everyone

    Parent
    There are several problems with your well (2.00 / 1) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 07:08:26 PM EST
    written comment.

    Best I can come up with is the absence of immorality.Immorality is easier, to paraphrase the judge, I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

    What you say there is that you have reserved to yourself the right to judge what is immoral. Thus what you don't judge immoral must be moral. That is the backside of justification.

    I see torture and I see immorality. So to me anybody who engages in torture or anyway endorses or apologizes for it is therefore an immoral person.

    So the question then becomes, does your judgement mean that someone must not engage in what you judge to be immoral even if their inaction, based on your demands, results in the deaths of others?

    And to be clear, we talking about war here.

    And that's not a trick question. It expands into what is a moral war? Self defense? Worked when we had sticks and stones. Doesn't work when we have WMD's.

    And you don't bother to define torture. Repack Rider, who is in this thread, once defined torture as:

    "Anything you would not want me to do to you is torture. "

    That, of course, is a classic non answer.

    Parent

    To be clear this is war ? (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by FlJoe on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 07:47:42 PM EST
    Yet the prisoners are NOT afforded even minimal POW
    protections. It's like you get to define EVERYTHING. It must be nice to be omnipotent.

    Parent
    There are several ways to look at this (none / 0) (#152)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 11:18:31 AM EST
    First, if it was a declared war the Geneva Convention would declare that all prisoners should be held captive until hostilities cease.

    But, of course, it is a war that has been declared only by the radical islamists. They have been, are and will in the future, fight against is in an asymmetrical war. We will be attacked in various places by various groups using both physical and cultural means. ISIS, in particular, has demonstrated a very capable propaganda capability. Radical Imams all over the world called for action against the cartoonist who produced the cartoons shown Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and riots erupted world wide. Any perceived violation of Sharia Law is also used to condemn and pressure the west.

    And since they are engaged in guerrilla warfare they do not meet these requirements specified in the Geneva Conventions.

    Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

    (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

    (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

    (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

    (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

    (c) that of carrying arms openly;

    (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

    So, we declared them to be Unlawful Combatants:

    An unlawful combatant, illegal combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a combatant or non-combatant who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of the laws of war. An unlawful combatant may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action; subject of course to international treaties on justice and human rights.[1]

    Link

    There was been much moaning about GITMO and the treatment of prisoners.

    I state unequivocally  that never have prisoners been treated as well as we have treated them.

    Contrast that with the beheadings by ISIS.

    And you might consider these nine questions.

    Especially this one.

    Given how much you rightly hate torture, why did you oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein, whose prisons engaged in far more hideous tortures, on thousands of times more people, than America did -- all of whom, moreover, were individuals and families who either did nothing or simply opposed tyranny? One assumes, furthermore, that all those Iraqi innocents Saddam had put into shredding machines or whose tongues were cut out and other hideous tortures would have begged to be waterboarded.

    As for your complaint.

    I can hardly take it any more. Maybe Santa is immoral for bringing me this bottle of Wild Turkey but anyways Merry Christmas everyone

    Yes, some people, especially those who have seen what damage alcohol can do, would say that Santa committed an immoral act.

    And if you desire to rid yourself of this sinful product I wish there was a way you could allow me to help.

    Parent

    thanks for the help (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 07:59:37 PM EST
    An unlawful combatant may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action; subject of course to international treaties on justice and human rights.[1]

    Your own quoted definition of these prisoners status gives them rights that you Apologists claim do not exist. And Jim lay off the Huessian did it first and Isis does it worse arguments, rather schoolyard don't you think. It's all so predictable, you Apologists blather on deeper and deeper into your twisted logic trying to defend the indefensible that you eventually demolish your own talking points. All the while tossing out the same old strawmen and tired canards. Jim when you can't  even post without disproving your points maybe it's time to hang it up.
    ps; if you must continue to blather at least try to come up with some fresher strawmen and cuter canards.

    Parent
    Oh please with the phony made up names (2.00 / 2) (#180)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 10:30:42 PM EST
    or you will tempt into playing your childish games.

    And you offer no proof that they were denied rights under the unlawful combatant guidelines.

    And yes I will make comparisons because it is necessary for us to understand the differences between ourselves and ISIS.

    Here is an article from the Boston Globe highlighting some of the issues.

    You, of course will look down your nose at those tasked with the job protecting those who....look down their noses at those who are.....

    Sleep well. The sheep dogs are watching over you tonight.

    And for that we should all be thankful.

    Parent

    I'm more than happy (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 11:07:53 PM EST
    to look down my nose at - and even micturate upon from a considerable height (a sheepdog might appreciate that), anyone who states unequivically that a place where white conservatives congregate is automatically "a citadel of hope, order, restraint, and compassion."

    Parent
    Pay attention to what was written: (2.00 / 1) (#183)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 08:29:25 AM EST
    I believe that the human animal - the raw material of our physical bodies - is essentially interchangeable. By this I mean that I could take the children of Fallujah and turn them all into Astronauts, convert Jewish babies into fanatical, mass-murdering SS guards, and shake a generation of the poorest Voodoo-worshippers in Haiti into a cadre of top-flight nuclear physicists, chemical engineers and computer scientists.

    Race has nothing to do with this - precisely nothing. The mobs of murdering Hutus and swarms of slaughtering Serbs are as different racially as it is possible to be, and they are cut from precisely the same cloth.

    snip

    Let's not talk about Black and White tribes... I know too many pathetic, hateful, racists and more decent, capable and kind people of both colors for that to make any sense at all. Do you not? Do you not know corrupt, ignorant, violent people, both black and white, to cure you of this elementary idiocy? Have you not met and talked and laughed with people who were funny, decent, upright, honest and honorable of every shade so that the very idea of racial politics should just seem like a desperate and divisive and just plain evil tactic to hold power?

    Link

     

    Parent

    Now we need to get a medic (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 08:46:52 AM EST
    In case Jim dislocates his arm from patting himself on the back so many times.

    Parent
    I see that you didn't read Whittle's comments (2.00 / 1) (#185)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 11:40:03 AM EST
    I say this not to glorify myself - on the contrary. I am embarrassed to write such things. I am a pampered and lazy Hollywood TV editor who gets paid insane sums of money to do a cake job while much better people than me do this every day, for peanuts. There is nothing remotely heroic about me. I simply do what millions and millions and millions of my fellow Americans do every day, in ways large and small. They step up to the plate, not because they want to be heroes, but because someone has to do it. These simple people donate their time, their money, their food, their cars and their houses every single day, and ask and expect nothing in return, while a few miles away from me in Brentwood millionaire movie stars throw fabulous parties to remind each other how swell they are, then waltz out into their chauffeured limos with their tens or hundreds of millions of dollars firmly in place, feeling good that they had the chance to really make a difference by raising awareness of whichever cause they feel will most make up for their feelings of inadequacy and guilt by showing both themselves and us just how much better people they really are.

    Link

    Parent

    Why would anyone bother ... (5.00 / 2) (#203)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 02:18:56 PM EST
    I see that you didn't read Whittle's comments

    ... reading the comments of a moronic, Tea Bagger wingnut who loves pat himself on the back because he's imagining himself as some sort of pathetic "victor" in a debate he's only winning in his own, little, tiny mind?

    Ohhhhh ...

    Parent

    Talking about you, Jim (none / 0) (#190)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 12:31:46 PM EST
    Not this idiot, or any of the others you see fit to quote here from time to time.

    Parent
    So you are saying that (2.00 / 1) (#197)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:56:10 PM EST
    I am quoting Whittle because I disagree with him.

    Hint. I don't. Although I say that his writings tend to be a bit florid with a tendency towards over statement.

    Parent

    Also my caveat (none / 0) (#140)
    by FlJoe on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 07:58:14 PM EST
    Better men then me....
    sorry ladies should been better minds

    Parent
    Actually, I'm not sure that Jesus... (none / 0) (#145)
    by unitron on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:43:03 PM EST
    ...would even have considered self-defense as moral if you have to hurt someone else to do it.

    Parent
    Three to consider (none / 0) (#150)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 10:16:45 AM EST
    Romans 12:18 ESV / 6 helpful votes

    If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

    Luke 11:21 ESV / 131 helpful votes

    When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;

    Luke 22:36 ESV / 102 helpful votes

    He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.



    Parent
    Three to consider (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 07:55:39 PM EST
    Why would anyone with a modicum of critical intelligence "consider" a partial Biblical quote ending in  semi-colon?

    Leave it to you, Jim.

    Not many people would have the chutzpah to take Jesus out of context in order to try and make him sound like Glenn Beck.

    Parent

    Luke 11:21 fits real well (none / 0) (#177)
    by MO Blue on Sat Dec 27, 2014 at 08:23:44 PM EST
    When a strong man armed

    By the strong man, is meant the devil; (See Gill on Matthew 12:29) and who may be said to be "armed", both with his own temptations, which are as fiery darts, and which are thrown by him thick and fast, suddenly and swiftly, privily, and with great art and cunning, and with great strength, and are very injurious; and also with the sins and lusts of men, which are armour of unrighteousness, and which Satan turns upon them, and makes use of against them, to their great detriment; and who

    keepeth his palace:

    which is the corrupt heart of an unregenerate man, where he dwells as a king, has his throne, keeps his court, and has his courtiers, and attendants, the lusts of the flesh, and the desires of the will, and the carnal affections; and which, as filthy a palace as it is, is perfectly agreeable to his nature; and this is kept by a guard of devils, and worldly lusts, till its strong holds are demolished by the Gospel, and Christ the King of glory enters in; till such time,



    Parent
    jondee and Mo (2.00 / 2) (#199)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 01:59:11 PM EST
    It's called an analogy.

    The Bible is full of'em.

    Check it out.

    Parent

    Here's a passage that isn't (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 02:07:53 PM EST
    Matt 26:51-52

    And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
    Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.



    Parent
    J, haven't read this thread yet, but just wanted (none / 0) (#58)
    by ZtoA on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 02:13:38 AM EST
    to say, thank you. Thank you for all your very informative posts. Thank you for allowing actual debate on your site. Thank you for the Darlene Love and (my first time actually listening) Bon Jovi. Couperin is on my player but my earbuds in my laptop overrided them. I am so grateful for you and your site.

    I still do not think that NK was totally 100% responsible for the Sony hack. Wired magazine and the 'Anonymous' statements makes the NK link very much not assured.

    Just in case you didn't see it the other 2 times.. (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by unitron on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:49:25 PM EST
    Thank you Unitron (none / 0) (#153)
    by ZtoA on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 11:18:56 AM EST
    (interesting handle BTW). For some strange reason this is so very interesting to me. Several years ago, I think it was because of Scott, I got interested in Stuxnet. Wired magazine is a nice source for tech info and they had a great article on Stuxnet and on the Sony hack too. I'll add yours to my list (just read them) of go-to online articles.

    My daughter just got thrown into the deep end in her new job (she is 26, living in LA, job in high tech - but WTF? she was an english major) and has to do some whatever it is called - coding. She says "It's no problem, mom, you just go around the internet and pick up lines of code that have already been written, copy them, and then add them into the ? lines of code that one wants".

    So now people (mostly in the US) think they are making a 'statement' by watching a stupid comedy "the Interview" and just sticking it to NK. Well, the humans in NK do not care or even know about it. And, oddly, being all excited about making a 'statement' by watching 'the Interview' is actually a 'statement' about supporting Sony who appears to be a horrid corporation who does not care about security.

    I run a business too. I am the sole employee. But I have email and a website hosted by "my guy" - the computer expert. He is brilliant. But he does not always return my calls. I know this, he has been "my guy" for over 20 years. On the last day of this September I hit some 'thing' on my computer and it started to breach all of my programs and access some other things (what? I did not know). So I texted him and he called me within 5 minutes and then spent the next hour working remotely on my two computers. (him, "wow these people are very tricky - you cant just delete the malware, you have to come at it from a couple of sides")(and this was his 'family time - evening from 7-8pm). I just sat back and watched my cursor flit around while listening to him 'comment' into my phone earbuds. He talked about computer security and how certain entities were just trying for access. After that hour, I then spent the next hour (mostly on hold) canceling my credit card and wishing I was like Kdog.

    But I am a company of 1 (with a few distributors and several vendors). Tiny. Not Sony. But if I can pay attention to cyber security then WTF is Sony doing??

    Parent

    Terry Gilliam animated Christmas card (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:33:29 AM EST
    Gilliam directed two of my favorite movies (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by McBain on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 02:58:59 PM EST
    Monty Python's Holy Grail and Brazil.  I hear there's a director's cut of Brazil that I haven't seen yet.  I'm going to have to check that out.

    Parent
    Fishcamp-check this out (none / 0) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 08:36:22 AM EST
    it did not come with an explanation.

    Love to know if you have one.

    Howdy, I don't know what that thing is, (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 06:08:19 AM EST
    so I sent copies of the photo to two cameramen friends.  One thought it was the ultimate selfie camera, and the other thought it was a Zeiss radial engine for his Cessna.

    Parent
    It's from a FB page called (none / 0) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 03:45:07 PM EST
    DSLR Cinematography.  (Or something like that).  Which you would probably enjoy.   The comments were not much help but they are funny.

    Parent
    It's a mutant Dalek... (none / 0) (#202)
    by unitron on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 02:13:33 PM EST
    ...that's all I got.

    Parent
    The Maze Runner (none / 0) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 12:31:46 PM EST
    while waiting for time to plow into my third Christmas dinner this week (so far) I watched this on PPV.   it's very good.

    Based on a series of books that I think I now have to read.   Fans of William Golding will see similarities.  There is a Ralph a Jack a Piggy and a Simon.  But there is also a girl and lots of other stuff I can't talk about.

    Good stuff  Well done.

    Taking a break from the holiday.. (none / 0) (#129)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 06:08:11 PM EST
    we went to see the movie Birdman because I didn't think that I could sit thru another tedious and torturous Hobbit movie.  I was really surprised, I didn't know that Michael Keaton had it in him but he laid down an amazing performance (as did the entire cast).  It was a great movie and the "camerawork" (I don't know what you call it really) was just fantastic.

    Parent
    that's the very word to use. (none / 0) (#149)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 25, 2014 at 07:47:37 AM EST
    camerawork

    Parent
    If you get (none / 0) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 03:47:13 PM EST
    FUSION on your cable system (244 on DISH) they are running a marathon of "The Cannabusiness Report".

    And other drug related programming.

    Governor Brown issues 105 pardons (none / 0) (#123)
    by McBain on Wed Dec 24, 2014 at 04:56:57 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/m8dpcnv

    Many of these were for drug crimes.  It's interesting to see the breakdown of governors and pardons.....

    Reagan: 574
    Schwarzenegger: 15
    Gray Davis: 0

    I'm saying his pretense (none / 0) (#204)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 at 02:30:11 PM EST
    Of not want glory is laughable, Jim.  It exudes from his writing like slime from a swamp.

    Of course he wants glory (none / 0) (#205)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 29, 2014 at 02:49:28 PM EST
    All Sheepdogs do.

    It is what they live and die for and it is a very useful characteristic for them to have....especially for the Sheep.

    If there is anyone here better qualified (none / 0) (#206)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 at 06:48:10 AM EST
    To opine on what it is like to be seeking glory besides Jim, they've yet to comment here.

    Seeking glory?? (none / 0) (#207)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 30, 2014 at 11:43:47 AM EST
    That's what many young men do. It is in their genes. Else why do they do such things as play sports? Playing any of them requires dedication, hard work, and some pain. Did your school give "Letter Jackets" to those who made the team?
    Jackets with the school colors and hash marks for the sport on the breast or sleeve?? They were almost always given to the young lady in the young man's life for her to wear and even though it often was too large the lady wore it with pride.

    A symbolic bringing home the skin of the saber tooth tiger from our distant past?? Perhaps.

    Why do they join the military? At its best it is more hazardous than civilian life. Why do they fly airplanes, sail on combat ships, go ashore or land in hostile environments?

    Yes, they seek glory. Often to their disadvantage. Often to the advantage of those who prefer to stay behind.

    Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

    Bill Whittle

     

    Glory is also what the jihadis (none / 0) (#208)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 at 11:52:18 AM EST
    Around the world want as well.  

    That you've fallen for a canine rendition of the speech Jack Nickelson's character gives at the end of the movie A Few Good Men is risible, Jim.

    Yes, that is true (none / 0) (#209)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 30, 2014 at 12:41:39 PM EST
    But the evil is not in wanting it but the acts.

    And that was a good movie describing wrong acts.

    And I don't remember Jack making this point.

    The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

    Bill Whittle

    You're easily fooled by a few (none / 0) (#210)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 at 01:09:48 PM EST
    pretty words, Jim.  PJ media is just another  RW scam that you haven't caught onto yet, and probably never will.