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Sunday Open Thread

It's a rainy Sunday here, about to turn to 4 to 7 inches of snow. Sorry for the lack of posting, I've been busy trying to assemble a few pieces of outdoor furniture for my balcony, listening to Spanish tapes and composing a "comment" for the FCC about whether it should eliminate the two year exemption for new television networks to comply with close-captioning rules, when the new network is part of a big network (like MundoFox.) The FEC's 153 page order of February, 2014 in which it requests comments is here. To submit a comment, start here. The proceeding is Case CG 05-231.

I think it's absurd that MundoFox doesn't have close captions, even in Spanish, on a multi-million show like "El Capo." (The only captions are when someone speaks in English, then they translate that.) El Capo is a production of MundoFox, RCN Television and Fox International. [More...]

MundoFox is a joint venture between Fox International Channels (FIC), 21st Century Fox's international multimedia business, and RCN, the leading Latin American television network and production company belonging to Organizacion Ardila Lulle (OAL). Together FIC and RCN currently reach over 1.6 billion subscribers worldwide with original series, novelas, dramas, game shows, reality, news and lifestyle programming.

Comcast and other cable networks carry MundoFox in some cities. El Capo is a new show. I think they should have to include captions, at least in Spanish.

Close-captioning is designed to assist the hearing-diabled. But it also helps those who are language-impaired and can't understand the dialogue because it is spoken to fast. I don't think it matters what the particular disability is since Congress, in 1996, enacted a law requiring programming distributors (broadcasters, cable operators, satellite distributors, and other multi-channel video programming distributors) to close caption their television programs. Since 2006, 100% of all new, non-exempt, English-language television programming must be produced and presented with closed captions.

One exemption is for new television networks. In 1997, the FCC adopted a self implementing exemption for new networks, broadcast or non-broadcast, for the first four years after the network’s launch date. See, 1997 Closed Captioning Report and Order, 13 FCC Rcd at 3346, ¶ 154. Also see 47 C.F.R. § 79.1(d)(9) and 47 C.F.R. §§ 79.1(b)(1)(iv), (b)(2)(ii), (b)(3)(iv) and (b)(4)(ii).

Paragraphs 153, 155 and 157 of the February, 2014 Closed Captioning Report and Order are the paragraphs asking for comments on eliminating the exemption for new networks, or at least new networks that are part of conglomerates of established networks.

"It would seem, given that the purpose of the new network exemption is to allow start-up networks to get off the ground before being subject to the captioning obligations, that any exemption should be limited to only those new networks that do not have the sophistication or financial backing required to plan for the dissemination of captioned programming.

Accordingly, even if we retain the new network exemption, should the exemption apply only to new networks that have certain other indicia of a start-up network, e.g., local or regional in nature, accessible by a small number of households, and ownership by a small business?

...Alternatively, should networks with significant financial backing be deemed ineligible for the new network exemption? For example, should the exemption not apply to new networks that are owned, in whole or part, by one of the four major national broadcast networks or the top ten non-broadcast networks? How do the relative costs and burdens of requiring new networks to provide captioning under each of these alternatives compare with the benefits of greater accessibility to television programming?

El Capo 3, unlike El Capo 1 and 2 and many other other Spanish series, first aired in the U.S. It's not a rebroadcast of a show that first aired in another country. While the following comment request doesn't really apply to El Capo, I'm going to address it anyway, because I'd also like to be able to watch and read what is being said on shows like Los Tres Caines and La Ruta Blanca. The Commission asks:

Next, we note that MVPDs serving U.S. subscribers increasingly offer video programming networks that were initially launched in foreign markets. We recognize that closed captioning could impose new costs on such networks, especially where the originating country does not require closed captioning of its video programming. In the event we retain the new network exemption, we seek comment on whether a network that has operated in a foreign market and that moves to distribution or “launches” in the U.S., should be eligible for a new network exemption for a certain period of time after it launches in the U.S. and, if so, what the duration of that exemption should be.

....We ask commenters that believe we should calculate an exemption upon moving the network’s programming to the U.S. to explain why this exemption is necessary, given that such networks will have been in operation (and presumably generating revenues) and will have advance notice of U.S. captioning obligations prior to launching in the U.S. How do the costs and burdens of providing captioning on networks showing programming in the U.S. after first showing programming in foreign countries compare with the benefits of greater accessibility to television programming?

In my view, no. By now the major Spanish networks, especially Telemundo, Univision, Unimas, Galavision, Caracol and RCN know when producing new shows that these shows will air in the U.S. at some point, and that the U.S. requires close captions on all new programming.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Shun Wars (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 03:25:52 PM EST
    More shunning, this time for Condi who was appointed as board member for Dropbox.

    mid the shiny, happy announcements of new features and new apps this week, file-sharing startup Dropbox quietly revealed another piece of news. Condoleezza Rice -- Stanford professor, Iraq War architect, alleged warrantless wiretap supporter -- is joining the board at the rising tech startup.

    Over on Hacker News, a leading barometer for what's on the minds of tech geeks, the day's most popular link connects to DropDropbox, a new site calling on users to boycott the company unless it removes Rice.

    The campaign's apparently anonymous creators are calling for her removal in part because of her support for the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping program, including claims that Rice herself authorized eavesdropping on UN Security Council members. "Why on earth would we want someone like her involved with Dropbox, an organization we are trusting with our most important business and personal data?" the site asks.

    Wired


    Now that does present me with the kind of (none / 0) (#7)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:37:56 PM EST
    decisions I wrote about in the shunning thread. I use DropBox enough to make it painful to stop using it.  And it is free, so my money is not being used for anything nefarious.  I don't use it for anything that makes me see who their advertisers are. I'll definitely keep an eye on their privacy policies though.

    Parent
    Dropbox (none / 0) (#10)
    by KeysDan on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:44:58 PM EST
    was apparently looking for a name to drop, but putting Condoleezza Rice on the Board shows that Drew Houston and others at the young start-up may be tech wizards, but they are tone-deaf in the public relations department.  Given that trust is foundational to their service, they might have kept looking for someone who could bring a better balance between fame and infamy.  Although, they could have done worse--dropping a name like James Clapper.

    Parent
    You (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 05:53:57 PM EST
    aren't kidding. Were they that desperate? It seems there would have been plenty of people who don't support warantless wiretapping who they could have picked.

    Parent
    Tone Deaf? (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:52:24 PM EST
    Maybe they calculated that the losses of customer base from hiring Condi would be small, and the politics big... big enough to draw in hordes of Condi supporters.

    Parent
    Staying away from any GOT spoilers (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 09:07:21 PM EST
    Let's just say that was extremely satisfying.

    But over much to quickly

    watched it with my niece (none / 0) (#37)
    by ZtoA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:20:14 AM EST
    who is sort of dissed by our family, but who I love. she is a 'difficult" person - a fighter and a competitor. But I love her. She is reading the books, staring from the first, and I look forward to when she surpasses me in GOT knowledge. Might take some time (knowing her this means a week). Unfortunately I told her about the GOT wiki. Need to get back to the Hunger Games art direction. I have lots of opinions about that. All good I'm afraid.

    Parent
    Last night I was able to use some of my new-found (none / 0) (#96)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:41:54 PM EST
    GoT knowledge, gleaned from visiting forums and wikis. Bastard children's last names are derived from their region, hence Jon Snow, the other Snow (Robert's swordmaker son - hey, where is he? He might want to check in with the events at King's Landing). Then last night we met a Sand lady, the +1 of that 2nd son that was making eyes at Loras.  The whole conversation with Cercie would have gone right over my head if I did not know that bit of trivia.

    Parent
    I really like (none / 0) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:12:59 PM EST
    The second son character.  Expect good stuff from him.  Cercie (Lena  Headey) is showing up all over and turning out some great work.  She is the mom in The Purge I was talking about below, and she is great.  She literally chews up the scenery as the scarred twisted gang leader MAMA is the new Judge Dred movie.

    Parent
    Have any ideas about (none / 0) (#112)
    by ZtoA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:05:14 PM EST
    the 'who done it'?

    Parent
    Excellent question (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:09:45 PM EST
    I don't think it was the wine but the pie, or whatever that was he was eating.  Which would mean it was not done of site.  He was the only one who ate it right?  I think this will ultimately clear his uncle.

    Parent
    well if a bunch of dogs die (none / 0) (#114)
    by ZtoA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:14:22 PM EST
    or poor people, then it will be the pie. The Tyrells would not want to be blamed for this so why make it obvious in the pie? My bet is on tears of Lys in the goblet. Can't trace that. Not sure who done it tho. Who stands to gain the most?

    Parent
    The Tyrells (none / 0) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:18:51 PM EST
    Didn't cook the food.  Just paid for it.  I would love it if it was Tireans girlfriend.

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:20:58 PM EST
    You would think they would try to find out what was actually poisoned BEFORE giving it to the dogs or the poor but maybe not.  More likely to be worried about the dogs.

    Parent
    Sorry,one more thing (none / 0) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:26:24 PM EST
    "The fool" certainly seemed to know what was happening while everyone else was running around waving their arms.

    Parent
    RED FLASHING LIGHT (none / 0) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:42:28 PM EST
    I know who did it and it's awsum. And we were totally wrong.

    Parent
    I can NOT resist (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:47:41 PM EST
    If you DO NOT want to know who done it

    DO NOT CLICK THIS LINK

    but it's awsum

    Parent

    that's great! (none / 0) (#124)
    by ZtoA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:17:57 PM EST
    I figured it was her, but couldn't figure where 'D' figured into it.

    Parent
    Hilariously (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:21:09 PM EST
    If you type "who killed" into Google he is the first choice.  With JFK and Tupac 2 and 3

    Parent
    Just one more (none / 0) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:37:39 PM EST
    For those who don't want to "know" there are very clear visual clues if you watch closely.  I am just reviewing the episode to verify what was said in that link.  And sure enough the visual clues are there.

    Parent
    Dang you for tempting me (none / 0) (#136)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:23:56 PM EST
    Have not looked...my conjectures were either Sansa putting something in the goblet under the table, or Grandma Tyrell when the goblet was on the table I front of her. But Tywin was right there too! So I am getting Sansa with an assist from the Fool.

    Parent
    Use what you just said (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:36:03 PM EST
    And watch the wedding VERY carefully. With a hint being where did the poison come from.  I have been reading interviews with the author.  I didn't know that he (the dead character) was quitting acting.  Seems a shame.  He was brilliant in that role. Apparently he is a very sharp young man who recently gave a very insightful talk at the Oxford Union on the perils of celebrity culture.

    Parent
    Aaaargh, I need to go to bed. (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:45:10 PM EST
    Without a bedding ceremony. Thank god we (and Margeary) were spared THAT last night!

    But you have me wondering about that sword grandpa had made.....and he is smart enough to see what a liability ihs despicable grandson (twice over!) was.

    Will do more sleuthing tomorrow.

    Question- who is the supposed heir now- Jeffrey's younger brother?

    Parent

    Worth mentioning that (none / 0) (#146)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:52:21 PM EST
    That the same guy wrote the book and the script and the solution in that link was based on the book.  He could be messin with us and that link could be wrong.

    Parent
    Thinking maybe the lannisters and tyrells (none / 0) (#147)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:56:36 PM EST
    declare there is no need to keep a supposed Baratheon on the throne? Tywin just makes himself king. And Margaery can marry him! Now that, I could toast with the finest vintage.

    Parent
    He really was good (none / 0) (#151)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:15:44 PM EST
    Those jerky jerky mannerisms, and horrible evil face. I did read he is very nice and a normal student at Trinity College, riding his bike everywhere.

    Btw, my brother saw Peter Dinklage in a LA hotel lobby last week. He said it was the first time he ever saw a celebrity in the field...I told him maybe he sees them more than he knows.  Peter Dinklage is just hard to miss.

    Funny story about this brother...the other night he told me he had watched the pilot episode of GoT, and thought it was too extreme, killing the little kid at the end of the very first episode! So he stopped watching. I had to tell him the little kid didn't die and has a great story line. He was kicking himself!

    Parent

    don't look ruffian (none / 0) (#140)
    by ZtoA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:28:22 PM EST
    You are such a good detective you will figure it out soon.

    Parent
    I will resist! (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:38:47 PM EST
    I read an interview with the director of the episode and he said you can't really figure it out from the visual cues alone, but it all is revealed later in the season and the cues then make sense. I will try to wait.

    Not really a very good detective...I tend just to let the stories wash over me, making a half hearted attempt to figure it out and predict.  I can barely remember the names, much less who was where when.

    Parent

    I'm going to watch later tonite after work (none / 0) (#137)
    by ZtoA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:24:17 PM EST
    the clues go by fast tho and it's very subtle. Also I read that Martin wrote the script for the episode and worked in multiple dead end clues and possibilities.

    Parent
    It's pretty fast (none / 0) (#144)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:39:29 PM EST
    But the primary "clue" is on screen several times.

    Parent
    I know who did it in the book (none / 0) (#149)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:06:02 PM EST
    Don't know if the movie series will stay true to story but I think it is going to, there were a few choice clues.

    Parent
    LOL, yes indeed (none / 0) (#66)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:57:51 AM EST
    I re-watched that  scene - I'm sure someone has already created a loop track by now.

    Really opens up the possibilities too!

    Parent

    I really want to see the next (none / 0) (#99)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:01:45 PM EST
    production of that horrid little play. Worst wedding entertainment ever.  But even Tyrion might approve of adding the new ending to it.

    Parent
    I saw an interview (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 05:59:29 AM EST
    with Matt Taibbi on Jon Stewart's show.

    He was detailing how the very wealthy and very powerful get away with thievery - and how we are being conditioned to accept that as normal.

    I first became acquainted with this way of thinking being imposed on us during the Nixon era. Here was this mega-crook being let off - and the rationalization was that since he had to give up such a lofty position - it was punishment enough. In a pig's eye.

    And there there is that bit of fluff about giving him a pardon so as not to "put the country through an ordeal". Another pig's eye.

    The current version of that bit of chicanery is the "we must move on" scenario favored by the Obama coterie regarding those master criminals, Messieurs Bush and Cheney.

    Nowadays, it is applied routinely to banks and bankers and Wall Street thievery. White collar crime is considered cleaner than crime by (ick) peasants like the 99%.

    Taibbi detailed how a source told him that he would not pursue criminal sanctions against one of these elite crooks because, "jail is too dangerous". (!)

    My question is - why do we tolerate it?

    The NY Times detailed yesterday how little influence people who are not in the elite class have on politics in Washington.  

    Duh.

    What can we do about it?

    I think, against the current of many here, that abstaining from voting for the "least worst" of the candidates would be a move in the right direction. If you don't hear something that sincerely motivates you to vote FOR someone, stay home or go to a movie.

    At least then, the people would not be held responsible for putting those s.o.b.s in power. Power to send us to war or to keep us in constant fear of war if we don't keep our noses clean.
    The "protection racket" in its latest incarnation.

    Personally, I would boycott those horrible so-called "debates".
    "Debate"? Are they kidding. With the only candidates allowed are from the two fat political parties with billions to spend? And the debates themselves being sponsored by those two corrupt entities - the democrats and the republicans.

    Let the ratings show that we ain't interested.

    One last thought along the lines of how we are being conditioned to accept the mantra that the elite do not deserve to be punished:

    Two programs (one on broadcast TV and the other on cable) feature cold-blooded murder. One (on "Scandal) features the president of the USA snuffing out the life of a terminal cancer patient in her hospital room so that she cannot testify about the rigging of his election via manipulation of a voting machine.

    The other, "House of Cards" features a senator pushing a journalist in front of an oncoming train - killing her to keep her quiet.

    In neither case are we made to feel that these people are contemptible and worthy of life sentences or a death penalty. They are continued to be portrayed as humans - complex - and still somewhat sympatico. Any story thread about discovering and prosecuting these crimes are dropped.

    In other words, not only can they steal from us, they can kill to protect themselves and its ok. Nobody's perfect...

    I know that nothing I have written is news to anybody.

    I just have been startled by the insidious elitist propaganda leveled at us not only by the news media, but also by the entertainment media as well.

    I guess they have the same boss.

    I probably to often (none / 0) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:30:04 AM EST
    Reduce information to entertainment news but if you have not, you really should the film The Purge.

    It is a chilling look at a near future where crime and unemployment are practically nonexistent.  The way this has been accomplished is to have one day a year when all laws are suspended and the rich can make the world a better place by taking out all their suppressed anger and resentment by killing poor and indigent people.  Of COURSE the law doesn't say that.  Theoretically you can kill anyone but the rich and muddle class have security systems -which we learn are a bit of a fraud and not that effective - so the ( generally ) unspoken truth is it is a day to kill people who are "a drag" on society.

    It it well done and well acted and will give you chills as you watch at just how completely freakin plausible the plot is.

    Parent

    I will (none / 0) (#61)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:33:50 AM EST
    indeed check this film out.

    It is difficult to believe that it will be scarier than what we see shoveled at us on a daily basis from the media - and things like Obama and Hillary and the rest watching a live emission of the killing of someone...

    A film that just popped into my head is the original "1984" starring Edmond O'Brien. (made in the 1950s I believe).

    Here is a link to it on Youtube.

    Everything depicted has come to pass.
    The spying.
    The rewriting of history.
    The perpetual war.
    You name it.

    Parent

    But Orwell's "1984" spoke of ... (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:15:10 PM EST
    ... a society which pacifies its own populace through the strict and tight control of information. Personally, I don't think we're anywhere near there. Rather, and speaking for myself only, what I see happening in our country appears to be aligning more with the general scenario laid out by Aldous Huxley in "Brave New World."

    Far from being controlled by government, the easy availability and gratuitous abundance of both goods and information of almost any sort is such in that people are quickly conditioned to what they understand to be their primary purpose in modern society, which is to voraciously consume everything with their reach. And in the process of that consumption, they soon lose the ability to effectively differentiate between the stuff that really matters and those things which clearly do not.

    Thus, the mindless gossip from Hollywood regarding actress Mila Kunis' pregnancy by boyfriend Ashton Kutcher makes for one of the lead stories on the evening news, right alongside the courageous reports from correspondents who risk their own lives and safety to report on what's presently happening in Ukraine, the Middle East and elsewhere.

    Further, the ignorant but corporate-sponsored opinions of a handful of climate change-denying crackpots are given equal weight and time with the educated observations of the overwhelming majority of eminently renowned scientists, who've devoted their professional lives to the study of the subject.

    And if you really don't care for the news you're hearing, why, you can simply change the channel, and you're soon able to listen instead to those pleasant-sounding talking heads who will tell you exactly what you want to hear, depending on your political orientation and personal mood.

    It's no small wonder that viewers and listeners -- the consumers -- are having such a hard time prioritizing issues by matter of both relevance and importance to their own lives, which in turn causes them further difficulty in determining what's actually true and what is not. The many distractions offered to us are sapping us of our ability to maintain our focus on solving a given problem, from its initial identification to its final resolution.

    And thus, in accordance with The Druid, "Information is abundant; wisdom is scarce." The knowledge we both seek and need is actually out there, and it's waiting to be had. But by and large, we are rapidly losing our capacity to know exactly what to make of it when we finally have it in our hands.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    One thing (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:11:48 AM EST
    I have to question is:
    ..Orwell's "1984" spoke of a society which pacifies its own populace through the strict and tight control of information. Personally, I don't think we're anywhere near there.

    I think we are there.

    I think of the television newsmedia.
    10 minutes of news, 20 minutes of human interest, + commercials.
    All, to varying degrees, pushing the same stories with the same slant.

    Russia is our friend.
    Russia is our enemy.
    We must attack Iran.
    Iran disappears from the news.
    We must attack Syria immediately.
    Syria disappears from the news...

    We are constantly being jerked around by these folks.
    All owned by conservative commercial interests - all of which are major contributors to and controllers of both political parties.

    You get my gist.

    Remember the run-up to the war in Iraq?
    What opposition voices did you hear?
    The Times, the liberal standard bearer, became a vessel of propaganda for Cheney.
    PBS kept trotting out retired generals telling us we had to invade and bomb the hell of Iraq.
    All the stations and all the talk shows.

    TalkLeft is a stellar exception.
    That is true.
    Not EVERYTHING is controlled.

    But just about everything is controlled and packaged when it comes to information.

    And then there is the added touch of "national security" which is freely used by all administrations including the present one as a pretext to restrict and control information.

    Seeing WashPo getting an award for publishing Snowden's info is a good thing, I feel. It certainly is a slap in the face to those pols in Washington who tried to suppress the info.

    But ultimately, the sad fact is that it doesn't even matter if we happen to find out the truth. The government isn't going to do anything to modify its behavior. The NSA sure as hell isn't either.

    To sum up:
    I do feel that the flow of information is tightly controlled.
    The content is neatly spun by the government and the media to provoke a conditioned response.
    And secondly - even if we are afforded a second opinion, we have no way to affect change.

    A perfect storm.

    Parent

    There was a time (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 12:53:06 PM EST
     when newspapers were a "calling" and a loss-leader for altruistic millionaires. It was just one of those things that rich folks did to sort of "give back" to us unwashed masses. And, it worked pretty well as a lot of reporters and newspapers really did what was known as investigative journalism.

    That all changed in the early 1980's when America lost its collective mind, and elected a "B" actor, and, G.E's mouthpiece, R. Reagan. Ronnie, "Beacon on the Hill," wasted no time in cutting taxes, deregulating everything, and, telling his 1% constituents, "have at it."

    That was the beginning of the "Go, Go 80's," and, the stock market, sensing that America was now for sale, went nuts. Suddenly, those apple-cheeked geniuses on Wall St, buying into the "Greed is Good" meme, said of the "loss-leader" news divisions, "baloney!" "Monetize everything, and, everything must be converted into a profit center." So, it became, "out with the journalists," and, "in with Madison Ave. and the marketing crowd."

    So, that was the end for the Edward R. Murrows, and, the beginning of the blonde bimbettes & the blow-dried pretty boys primping for the cameras and reading "the news" from teleprompters. And, the collective brilliance of the American public rewarded this change with high ratings, and, gobs of money.

    R.I.P. America 1776-1982.


    Parent

    Doublespeak (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:06:23 AM EST
    Doublethink, news speak

    Parent
    Gay men will marry your girlfriends. (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by caseyOR on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:53:38 AM EST
    No, this is not some rightwing trolling. It is the subject of a hilarious pro same-sex marriage video.

    See it here. It's funny because it's true.

    Credit where credit is due. (none / 0) (#45)
    by caseyOR on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:55:12 AM EST
    I saw the above video at Digby's place.

    Parent
    Loved it the first time I saw it. (none / 0) (#134)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:08:33 PM EST
    "Have you seen us? We are RIPPED! ... Because we love going to the gym. And you know who else loves going to the gym? Your girlfriend."

    LOL.

    Parent

    That's (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:05:17 AM EST
    Amazing.  And as you say .  Totally true.  Most of the friends of most gay men are women.   Including me.


    Parent
    And a word from the ladies. (none / 0) (#47)
    by caseyOR on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:05:22 AM EST
    Lesbians that is, who will marry your boyfriends if you do not get onboard with marriage equality.

    Parent
    HA (none / 0) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:54:16 AM EST
    .........Rachel Maddow.......

    Parent
    It's worth noting that as current as that seemed (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:00:57 AM EST
    She mentioned 8 states that have legalized gay marriage.

    Ohio is on the cusp of making it 18

    Parent

    Yes, I saw that video a couple of years ago (none / 0) (#67)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:59:33 AM EST
    It never gets old though

    Parent
    Already a (none / 0) (#62)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:37:52 AM EST
    fact, my friend.

    People wake up to find out that their spouses have predilections other than those they were presumed to have...

    Parent

    For 7years I was (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:06:48 PM EST
    " married" to a married nab with three kids

    Parent
    What was it like (none / 0) (#69)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:08:25 PM EST
    I'm sure you are wondering being married to a nab

    Parent
    Actually, (none / 0) (#71)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:27:02 PM EST
    I was wondering what a "nab" is.

    I hadn't heard that word before...

    Parent

    It was man until the iPad betrayed me (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:40:18 PM EST
    But all kidding aside there is a dark side to the stories in those videos.  His was a tragedy worthy of an opera.  He married his high school sweetheart.  They had literally been best friends since grade school.  And he learned that, as the videos say, straight men are rarely their wives best friends.  Even if they think they are.
    When it became clear he could no longer controll his urges she threw him out.  He never saw his kids, who he loved deeply, again.  It destroyed him.
    And the really sad part is that it is not an uncommon story.  In fact it almost happened to me.  But at twenty I had a moment of clarity and we are still best friends.

    Parent
    You know (none / 0) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:11:18 PM EST
    I have mentioned things like this happening and how a gay person getting married and pretending to be straight does nobody any good to some of my conservative friends. And they agree. They still don't think gay people should be allowed to marry though. I guess it's progress even if it is a tiny one.

    Mostly the GOP is very good at manipulating these people with fear. Fear of the other and you can put a whole lot of people into that "other" category.

    Parent

    That was an experience which ... (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:59:38 PM EST
    Ga6thDem: "I have mentioned things like this happening and how a gay person getting married and pretending to be straight does nobody any good to some of my conservative friends. And they agree."

    ... caused me no small amount of pain, consternation and angst in my own life, when I (and in obvious retrospect, foolishly) married a lesbian with the crazy notion that I'd somehow change her. Was it due to my own then-ignorance about the true nature of homosexuality, my unfounded belief in my own masculine studliness, or a nasty combination of the two?

    What you outlined above is also underlying premise of Ang Lee's tragic 2009 masterpiece "Brokeback Mountain," which I thought effectively conveyed -- in a beautiful yet heartbreaking fashion -- the miserable emotional existence of nearly everyone involved in the plot's multi-triangulated personal relationships.

    It was not only about the two cowboys, who had the misfortune to fall in love with one another at a time when homosexuality was still the love that dare not speak its own name in polite society. It was also about their respective and equally unfortunate female companions, who by virtue of their own gender and their spouses' sexual orientations were rendered unable to compete effectively with their romantic rivals, and were thus deprived of the love and affection they so desperately craved and needed in their own lives.

    I couldn't be more pleased with the present direction of our country on this particular subject. While we can't do anything about what's already long since past, we can certainly change things for the better for present and future generations of Americans.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Ironically (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:20:32 PM EST
    The people who are the stereotypes they love to hate, the tea room queens, the ones who haunt wooded parks and truck stops and rest stops are almost always these people.  Think about it.  The rest of us don't need to.

    I have a friend who did his PhD dissertation on this phenomenon

    Parent

    A friend (none / 0) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:23:13 PM EST
    of mine has the same theory about Catholic priests. She said since they basically have to deny who they are, it comes out in ways like sexually abusing childen. She seems to think unless and until they let priests get married that this is going to be a problem though a lesser one now I'm sure since everybody is watching.

    Parent
    Except (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:33:06 PM EST
    Pedophiles aren't the same thing as homosexuals.  So even if priests have to tamp down their desires", that doesn't translate to abusing children.

    Parent
    Yes but (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:45:52 PM EST
    When you try to bury something a profound as the sex urge it can fester an become something quite other.  As far as GAs point about it getting better, I'm not so sure.  The gay mafia in the Vatican is real and it is powerful.  I probably have to many personal stories on this subject but
    One of my best friends entered seminary school right out of high school.  He was quickly invited to a party - he was not out at the time - and was horrified at what he saw.  Priests dancing together, making out sitting in each other's lap.  He made it sound like a Fellini movie.  Anyway, he left the next day and came out soon after.
    But was and is a fact that the church is a hiding place for troubled and repressed gay men.  When you mix in the trust the age of those he is around and the rest it is a disaster waiting to happen.  Pure and simple.


    Parent
    Not to mention... (none / 0) (#87)
    by unitron on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 02:40:33 PM EST
    ...that an attraction to very young children, where the very young part is much more important to the molester than whether their prey is male or female, is pedophilia, and attraction to boys just entering puberty is really something else for which there is a different name which eludes me at the moment, but marrying an adult female is the "cure" for neither.

    Parent
    I agree about marrying (none / 0) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:39:03 PM EST
    Not being a cure but I think it would probably be a positive step.  Most people I have discussed this with who I believe know what they are talking about think that allowing women to be priests would have a far more positive effect on the problem.
    For many reasons.

    Parent
    I wasn't (none / 0) (#88)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 02:54:28 PM EST
    really talking about gays so much and just gays who feel they have to repress and priests who feel they have to repress.

    Parent
    But it's still (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:17:55 PM EST
    a very, very, very small minority of priests who feel and act that way.

    (I was raised Catholic and I firmly believe they should let priests marry, especially since the Church would allow a married minister who converted from another religion to become a priest.  I don't see the logic in allowing "outsiders" be married priests, but not allowing those "born" to the faith not).

    Parent

    True, but I also tend to believe that ... (none / 0) (#126)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:47:34 PM EST
    jbindc: "Pedophiles aren't the same thing as homosexuals.  So even if priests have to tamp down their desires", that doesn't translate to abusing children."

    ... personal repression of one's own sexuality -- both voluntary and otherwise -- is itself an inherently unnatural act that can eventually lead to deviant sexual behavior, which can further manifest itself in many shapes and forms, depending upon the situations and circumstances.

    Further, human sexuality hardly ever presents itself to us in strictly black-and-white terms of expression. We do know that heterosexuals will sometimes mutually engage in homosexual acts if the opportunity presents itself, and that homosexuals will sometimes engage in heterosexual acts for exactly the same reason.

    Along those lines, I don't find at all far-fetched the idea that persons (both straight and gay) who aren't necessarily predisposed to pedophilia might well consider engaging in sexual acts with children and adolescents, if the personal desire for sexual expression is urgent enough and that's the only available outlet immediately presented to them.

    Noah Cross (John Huston): "Now, where's the girl? I want the only daughter I've got left. As you know, Evelyn was lost to me a long time ago."

    J.J. Gittes (Jack Nicholson): "Who do you blame for that -- her?"

    Cross: "I don't blame myself. You see, Mr. Gittes, most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and the right place, they're capable of anything."
    -- "Chinatown" (Screenplay by Robert Towne, 1974)

    Adults sexing with underaged minors of any gender is, of course, both inexcusable and unacceptable under any circumstances. But I can certainly understand how it can happen when an adult's sexuality is repressed for whatever the reason.

    And I believe that our society is terribly ill-served by our own often ridiculous and puritanical attitudes about a whole host of issues related to human sexuality, which has probably done more to subsequently encourage deviant sexual expression, albeit inadvertently, by discouraging frank dialogue and honest discussion -- both in public and in private -- about matters of sex and intimacy in the first place.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    My take is that the Catholic priesthood (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by KeysDan on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:36:15 PM EST
    historically has been a safe harbor from the oppressive vectors affecting those of homosexual orientation. This safety is moored on the vow of celibacy (to remain unmarried and abstinent throughout life). Celibacy, therefore, has offered an understandable and celebrated  reason for not getting married.

    There was a time when a "bachelor" over 35 years of age was considered suspect and worthy of approbation. This attitude, fortunately, has changed as Western culture and modern times have changed. Moreover, becoming a priest not only relieved societal pressures to marry, but also, gained parental acceptance and pride (no grandchildren but a priest in the family).   This, too, has changed owing to sex abuse scandals and will require substantial long-term re-building.

    Celibacy, however, becomes a double-edged sword.  Remaining unmarried and abstinent is not as easy as first reckoned.   Indeed, having "no particular friendships" may result in depression and alcoholism.  Life long abstinence may mature into an eventual  questioning of a  God who casts sexual orientation but does not permit acting upon it.  Counter-intuitive to behavior in keeping with a given nature.

     However, the sexual abuse of children (pedophilia or sexual attraction to prepubescent children) is not, in my view, an inherent draw to the priesthood any more than it is a draw to any career or job that provides opportunity for, and access to, a  population that might lend itself to  this particular psychiatric disorder.  Child abuse is a crime.  It is sick in all regards, including, but not limited to,  in its abuse of power and its undermining of trust

    Parent

    The (none / 0) (#84)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:59:36 PM EST
    thing about it, for me, is that the State gives privileges to married people.

    So there are economic and social incentives to enter into matrimony. These benefits are currently offered only to heterosexual people and so the State is actively engaged in giving rewards to one group of citizens, and denying it to another.

    Marriage should be a ceremony between people who love each other. It should be about love. That's it. For no other reason.

    Religions or pseudo-religions or anybody should be able to perform a wedding ceremony that is meaningful to those who wish to be joined together in marriage.

    The State should keep the hell out of it - and should have no say in the matter.

    Parent

    Marriage (none / 0) (#90)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:15:59 PM EST
    Marriage should be a ceremony between people who love each other. It should be about love. That's it. For no other reason.

    People get and stay married for ALL kinds of reasons - not just love.

    Parent

    Ok. (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:01:38 PM EST
    People get and stay married for ALL kinds of reasons - not just love.

    I'll rephrase my statement.

    People should get married if they want to do so. For whatever reason they wish to.

    But the State should have no part in it.

    Parent

    Nice rebound, lentinel. (none / 0) (#129)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:23:10 PM EST
    I first posed that question to people while working in the state legislature out here more than 20 years ago, when the case Baehr v. Lewin (1991) (aka Baehr v. Miike) first reared its head in an island courtroom: "What compelling state interest does the Hawaii Department of Health serve by legally sanctioning the personal relationships of heterosexuals, while simultaneously denying it to homosexuals?"

    Most people experienced a lot of trouble formulating an answer, and many subsequently ended up agreeing with me, albeit in private. Because it was not morality, per se, but partisan politics that motivated most opponents of gay marriage, first and foremost because they saw it as a great wedge issue.

    And it wasn't just Republicans who wielded their opposition to same-sex marriage to great effect. We had several local Democrats who rode that horse out here in races against principled GOP legislators such as Eve Anderson and Mike O'Keefe, both of whom had spoken passionately on the House floor against the proposal to codify discrimination by amending the state constitution. Sad to say, those Dems won on it.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The position (none / 0) (#156)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:47:07 AM EST
    I believe you are describing is one in which the State sanctions heterosexual marriage while denying it to homosexuals.

    That is indeed discriminatory and unfair.

    But my opinion is that the State should not be involved in the marriage contract at all - for anyone.

    The State should not be offering tax breaks.
    The State should not be offering protections or benefits regarding inheritance - or visitation rights or anything else based on whether or not a couple is married.

    There should be absolutely no thought about whether a child is "legitimate" - or "out of wedlock". None whatsoever. Talk about discrimination!

    As you point out, neither political party can be trusted when the principles of different organized religions hold such sway over their decisions.

    Imo, marriage should be its own reward. The ceremony, or the simple signing of a paper by the parties concerned should suffice. People should be able to choose to have a religious person officiate if they so choose, or they could simple each take a toke on a ceremonial bong to cement their relationship.

    The State should go about the business of providing services such as garbage collection.

    It should not be involved in marriage contracts.
    imo.

    Parent

    My feeling has always been (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Zorba on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:27:08 PM EST
    That the state should get the he!! out of the "marriage" business.
    I have no problem with the state sanctioning "civil unions," for any two (or frankly, more, but that opens another whole kettle of fish) consenting adults.  And if, after that, those two want to go to their local priest, minister, rabbi, imam, Druid practitioner, or whatever, to get "married," I don't give a whoop.
    I wouldn't give them any tax breaks based on this.  (And I wouldn't give any tax breaks, for that matter, to any religious group.  If they are feeding the poor, housing the homeless, and so on, they could count this as charitable deductions, as any individual or company can, but other than that, no.)
    The main interest that the State should have is the care and well-being of the children.  Which really shouldn't, as you said, have anything to do with the legal status of the parents.
    But that is just my humble opinion.

    Parent
    Just saw a great quote from Ricky Gervais (none / 0) (#203)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 05:08:15 PM EST
    Went like this

    "Same sex marriage is not a privilege it's a civil right.  A privilege would be not paying taxes.  Like churches"

    Parent

    Match up of Bush's paintings (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:05:45 PM EST
    to the source google image photograph.

    It IMO is interesting to compare the images.

    His (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:23:05 PM EST
    paintings stink even more than his presidency.

    Parent
    Not possible IMO (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 05:59:06 PM EST
    to stink even more than his presidency.  

    Parent
    a psychological read (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by ZtoA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:02:01 PM EST
    of his paintings would be that they are tortured. Rather fitting. These are beginner paintings but you can still do a psychological read of them.

    Most people/critics/writers do not do psychological reads. A number of years ago I got a very favorable review in Art In America - a good art magazine - and the author did a psychological read of me. I knew she could do that after reading a very amazing book of hers. I was happy for the review, but, man, my innards were on display.

    Parent

    What Book? (none / 0) (#150)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:08:28 PM EST
    Nice that you got a good review!

    Parent
    a book on (none / 0) (#169)
    by ZtoA on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 10:56:47 AM EST
    Hans Belmer. Author Sue Taylor. I ended up not quite agreeing with her conclusion but I sure loved the ride getting there.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#170)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:00:22 AM EST
    I will check it out, I am a big fan of Bellmer, Bataille and the dissident surrealists.

    Parent
    They are some (none / 0) (#105)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:52:30 PM EST
    bad paintings and I would say that if anybody had painted them. They loook like something a middle schooler would paint.

    I'm sure though he'll have a market for them as there are enough people out there who think he was a wonderful president and would pay the money


    Parent

    Is he actually offering them for sale? (none / 0) (#127)
    by unitron on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:12:31 PM EST
    Or is there any evidence that he ever intended selling them?

    Maybe he just likes doing it for relaxation.

    Especially since he doesn't have to put on the cowboy clearing brush act any more.

    Parent

    I just assumed (none / 0) (#132)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:51:49 PM EST
    since there were pictures of them on google that they were at some art gallery somewhere. I have no knowledge of whether they are for sale or anything.

    I'm sure the same people that thought the cowboy clearing brush act was so great would probably have a stroke to find out he was doing something so "sissy" like painting.

    Parent

    nothing like using art (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by ZtoA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:21:34 PM EST
    to launder one's reputation. Has been done a lot.

    Parent
    Aren't the google images to show (none / 0) (#133)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:58:13 PM EST
    what W may have looked at as a basis for his paintings?

    Parent
    The story (none / 0) (#157)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 06:45:55 AM EST
    that was linked to kind of implied that George W. Bush had to use images for his paintings since he obviously could not do "original" art work or something.

    Anyway, after further reading it appears that they are on display at his presidential library.

    Parent

    The question of a market for them... (none / 0) (#204)
    by unitron on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 07:01:42 PM EST
    ...implies offering them for sale, rather than just displaying them.

    Actually trying to make money off of them might bring up copyright infringement issues.

    Parent

    They are hanging (none / 0) (#159)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 07:16:54 AM EST
    in the George W. Bush Presidential Center on the campus of Southern Methodist University.

    Actually, I don't think they're that bad.  They are certainly better than anything I could do - by far.

    Parent

    The level of difficulty would be determined (none / 0) (#160)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 08:16:17 AM EST
    by how the paintings were done. If Dubya drew the images directly on the canvas and then painted them, that would require a certain level of talent.

    If OTOH the images were transferred directly onto to the canvas and not drawn freehand, it would not be that difficult to produce the paintings.

    Parent

    I dunno (none / 0) (#161)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 09:00:29 AM EST
    I had an older cousin that did that.  He couldn't draw to save his life.  He used a projector and traced the picture from magazine photos.  But he still had to get the colors right and have the skill to use the right brushes, etc.  No - it isn't a talent like drawing, but it's still much harder than it looks.  My paint-by-numbers kits still never looked as good as the picture on the box.  

    I think people are ready to jump on him because of his presidency.  To me, this was just a hobby he did and I think it's a pretty decent job.  

    Parent

    What brushes to use is a technique (none / 0) (#163)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 09:30:01 AM EST
    that can  be easily taught to anyone who is willing to spend a little time. Color choices are more difficult but a good teacher could help you develop a limited palette to use on portraits.

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#164)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 09:38:18 AM EST
    But even then, it doesn't mean you could make pictures where everyone recognizes the subject.

    This isn't "high art", but I don't think it ever was supposed to be.

    I think people are basing their opinion of GWB the artist on their opinion of GWB as president.

    Parent

    I have honestly tried (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:23:44 AM EST
    To not do that.  I give the guy credit.  I even said I was surprised how good they are.

    Which doesn't necessarily merat I think they are good.

    Parent

    I always suspected (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 09:03:09 AM EST
    He used some kind of projection method to start the process.   The paintings are just to precisely copied from the source.  And in one case,  Hamid Karzai, he reversed it.  Also a clue to the technique.

    Parent
    You Are Ignorant About Painting (none / 0) (#165)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 09:49:58 AM EST
    Many great painters use devices to get the image onto the canvas before painting it.

    Ever heard of Vermeer?

    Parent

    Yes I've heard of Verrmeer (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 12:13:14 PM EST
    and am familiar with the techniques he used.

    I also know that these portraits do not come close to greatness.

    YMMV


    Parent

    Good (none / 0) (#179)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 12:44:57 PM EST
    Then you know that he traced many of his paintings using a lens and ground glass.

    I also know that these portraits do not come close to greatness.

    No one here has called W's images great, but many, including you have written them off because he apparently used photographs as references.  

    The techniques artists use is irrelevant, great artists produce great works, even if their hand never touches the work of art.

    It is naive to think that rendering skill has anything to do with artistic talent, and by artistic I mean a deep ability to convey meaning through visual means.

    Most artists who can render perfectly since childhood are boring artists. Having the ability to draw perfect realistic images is a trap and more often than not (usually) is a limit to creativity and  imagination.

    Parent

    I did not write him off because he (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 01:18:56 PM EST
    used photographs. The paintings were not rendered perfectly nor IMO the are distortions intentional. Trying to duplicate someone else's photographs does eliminate the need to make any placement or design decisions since these have already been made by the photographer.

    Since his painting do not come close to anything approaching great art, I'm not sure why you felt it was necessary to give an art history lesson. This is in no way applicable to Dubya's paintings.

    rendering skill has anything to do with artistic talent, and by artistic I mean a deep ability to convey meaning through visual means
     

    I personally don't like many of his portraits due to his color choices, his treatment of lights and darks and IMO some areas of his paintings look muddy and over painted.

    I have seen beginning painters who are not named Bush paint more creatively especially when transferring images onto their canvas of choice.

     

    Parent

    Depth and Expression (1.00 / 1) (#183)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 01:52:32 PM EST
    Since his painting do not come close to anything approaching great art, I'm not sure why you felt it was necessary to give an art history lesson.

    You made an ignorant sounding comment, I felt the need to point out that the basis of your comment was deeply flawed. It may be that I do not understand what you mean when you talk about difficulty and talent as regards the finished product.

    The level of difficulty would be determined by how the paintings were done. If Dubya drew the images directly on the canvas and then painted them, that would require a certain level of talent.
    If OTOH the images were transferred directly onto to the canvas and not drawn freehand, it would not be that difficult to produce the paintings.

    For those who have a gift for rendering it would not be difficult in the slightest to draw a portrait freehand. I do not understand what that has to do with how "good" the final product was.

    Considering that the discussion you started by your link, I assume that you do not mean to suggest that Bush used photo mechanical means to transfer the photographs directly on to the canvas without using his hand.  But that you meant that it would not be difficult to produce the paintings using a projector or some device that would allow tracing?

    Really I do not understand how you could comparing freehand rendering and rendering with assisted devices to determine level of difficulty in producing the painting.

    You must be imagining yourself, and deciding that it would be easy for you to make the paintings using a projector than painting from a photograph or memory.

    As for my comment about rendering skill being unrelated to the final product and it's artistic merit, it absolutely is applicable to Bush's paintings, IMO. Otherwise I would not have brought it up.

    IMO, Bush's paintings have artistic merit. For me the have depth and reveal that Bush is able to express himself through visual means. They do not have to be Da Vinci's to be expressive and communicate depth.

    Parent

    It is easier to produce a painting (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:15:49 PM EST
    when someone else produces the image, makes all the composition, design and color decisions for you. You have decided to ignore that those elements for better or worse are part of every work of art. You have also chosen to ignore my reasons for not liking the paintings.

    I personally don't like many of his portraits due to his color choices, his treatment of lights and darks and IMO some areas of his paintings look muddy and over painted.

    You feel that his portraits have artist merit. Some critics agree with you. Others do not.

     

    Parent

    Transformative (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:29:27 PM EST
    It is easier to produce a painting when someone else produces the image, makes all the composition, design and color decisions for you.

    I disagree on two counts. One, you are imagining what would be easier for you, not someone else. And two, you are leaving out the thing that makes a work come to life, which cannot be measured.

    Think of this, a child is given an image that someone else made and told copy everything as it is. That is supremely difficult.
    Much easier for the child, in most cases to just make a painting.

    Substitute artist, and it is even more difficult to copy someone else's work, and make it art. Unless the artist is a hack, many hacks are perfect copiers.

    And, if you think that the images and photographs are exact, well you are not seeing a whole lot of what I am seeing.

    Were Bush making money from the paintings and were Deborah Solomon testifying in an AP lawsuit claiming damages against Bush, she would have argued that there was no transformation between the painting and photograph. Perhaps that is her honest opinion but for me I would go by this:

    In Cariou v Prince the US Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit was required to consider the question whether use of a third party's photographs to create a new work of art is `transformative' and therefore fair use. The court held that, for the most part, although direct copies of the photographs were used, the artwork created manifested `an entirely different aesthetic' from photographs, meaning that copyright in the photographs was not infringed.



    Parent
    It may be more difficult to copy (none / 0) (#193)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:05:41 PM EST
    someone else's work and make it "art".

    Good thing I didn't say it was easier to produce art that way. Let me repeat this for you since you are confusing the words painting and art.

    It is easier to produce a painting when someone else produces the image, makes all the composition, design and color decisions for you.

    Do I think the photographs and the paintings are exact? No I do not. I think Bush tried to copy them as exactly as possible but did not have the skill to do so. Also, I think the distortions do not add anything of value to the end product.

    Parent

    BTW, I don't recall (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 01:38:35 PM EST
    learning in art history that Vermeer transferred someone else's work onto his canvases. His subject choices, the elements of design, the color choices and his uses of light and dark were IIRC his own.

    No small difference.

    Parent

    Hahaha (none / 0) (#185)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:03:08 PM EST
    His subject choices, the elements of design, the color choices and his uses of light and dark were IIRC his own.
    No small difference.

    I guess you missed the 20th and 21st century art history classes when it comes to how art is made.

    Didn't Bush choose his subjects?, the photographs? and all the other choices he made?

    Others may have made the same choices that Vermeer made, and produced nothing worth looking at. The materials and methods are trivial, imo,

    BTW, I don't recall learning in art history that Vermeer transferred someone else's work onto his canvases.
    Not sure about Vermeer but, many other great artists transferred other's work onto canvas and made it great.

    Vermeer used a tracing device, IOW he did not draw freehand.


    Parent

    You seemed to skip over this point (none / 0) (#188)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:35:02 PM EST
    What exactly did Vermeer trace?

    Did he trace a painting that was rendered by another artist and then try to reproduce it duplicating the composition and design elements? Exactly what did he trace? You seem unsure of this in your comment.

    As to the choices Bush made:

    Critic, artist and appropriation expert Greg Allen pointed this out:

    Bush painted his portraits, not just from photographs-a common enough practice as well as a long-established conceptual strategy, though I think only the former pertains here-but from the top search result on Google Images. Many photos were taken from the subject's Wikipedia entry. Bush based his paintings on the literally first-to-surface, easiest-to-find photos of his subjects.

    Bush did not change the composition of the photograph when he painted it. He did not add any additional elements of design. I tend to agree with art critic Deborah Solomon.

    Although Solomon clarifies this technique is a "completely legitimate method" for postmodern contemporary artists, she notes that Bush doesn't transform his imagery in any way beyond simply copying it.



    Parent
    I have to say (none / 0) (#189)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:46:54 PM EST
    I don't know much about art.  I know what I like.  I like pictures of things I recognize, so while it may be pedestrian, I think there's good art at "starving artists shows", and horrible art that hangs in the world's finest museums.  Quoting art critics doesn't do much for me, as these are often the same people who tell me cubism is good art.  I don't see it - it all looks like something kindergartners can do.  But that's just my opinion.  

    Isn't the point of art that it evokes some feeling in a person?  

    With Bush's paintings, I can recognize that 1) they are paintings of people, and for the most part 2) I can recognize who they are.  I know I could sit down with the best intent of painting a picture of Vladmir Putin and I can guarantee you that no one would recognize his as such.  Is it great art?  I dunno.  Is it something I would buy or hang in my house?  No - not really my style.  But I think he did a pretty good job all in all.

    Parent

    Well I do agree that if you (none / 0) (#198)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:40:28 PM EST
    sat down today and had absolutely no training and tried to do an oil painting of Putin, no one would probably recognize him.

    While you say that you can recognize that they are paintings of people, you do not discuss what feeling they evoked in you as a person.


    Parent

    My feelings were (none / 0) (#199)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:49:08 PM EST
    I thought they were pretty good renditions, and was actually amazed that he had some talent.  I would have nver guessed it.

    Parent
    Not Skipping Anything And Certainly Not Unsure (none / 0) (#190)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:49:06 PM EST
    Did he trace a painting that was rendered by another artist and then try to reproduce it duplicating the composition and design elements? Exactly what did he trace? You seem unsure of this in your comment.

    Vermeer's paintings would have been great if he copied another artist's painting. The thing that makes Vermeer great has nothing to do with his design but with the fact that Vermeer painted them and he was a genius.

    As far as Greg Allen goes, I have read his take and have been following his blog for a long time.  I often agree with his take, but not this time. And Deborah Solomon? She writes about Norman Rockwell, Pollock and does not seem to be terribly interested in contemporary practice. She does own a Walter Robinson, so I have to give her some credit for having taste.

    And Deborah Solomon's position regarding transformative issues regarding fair use would be a loser in court, IMO  

    Parent

    I think most knowledgeable people would disagree (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:54:29 PM EST
    with you that the elements of composition, design and color are not part of what make his paintings great.

    Parent
    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:08:01 PM EST
    Not sure what you are saying here. Are you talking about Vermeer?

    I think that your argument is that had Vermeer copied someones photographs like Bush did they would be second rate, no? I would say that if Vermeer copied someone else's photographs that they would be great, and be 100% Vermeer.

    Warhol, copied images and made paintings. They are great, and transformative. Many artists copy works, and it does not make it art, or junk. All depends on the person making it and what they have in terms of expressive ability, imo.

    Duchamp, of course, did not even bother copying, but used someone else's work and called it his own in, for example the work Fountain. It was transformative and led the way to much of the practices in contemporary art.

    Bottom line, is that people make art.. some people are able to be expressive and some people make art that is devoid of expression, and by expression I include transformation.

    It is silly to argue about the art making process and choices that an artist made as determining the value of a work, as those are  only a vehicles, what is left in the end is what counts. Fine that you and others think that Bush paintings are garbage. That does not make it so.

    Parent

    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:25:37 PM EST
    You need to take more time when reading comments. Once again you are twisting what I wrote so that you have the argument that you want to have rather than responding to the question.

    Choices that an artist makes do add or distract from the end result for better or worse. Warhol, for example, copied images and created his own compositions using elements of design and color to make his paintings.

    You thinking that Bush's paintings have artistic merit does not make it so either. It is your opinion. Some knowledgeable people agree with you and some equally as knowledgeable agree with my assessment of his work.


    Parent

    Twisting, Please Show Me Where I Went Wrong (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:50:53 PM EST
    Choices that an artist makes do add or distract from the end result for better or worse. Warhol, for example, copied images and created his own compositions using elements of design and color to make his paintings.

    We were talking about Bush copying from photographs. You do not like the works, OK got it. You maintain that the only reason that the paintings are any different from the photographs is because Bush did not have the skill to make them exact.  That is opinion made out of whole cloth. Really silly, imo.

    Were this the case Bush most certainly would not be exhibiting the photographs, nor would he have chosen the most readily obtainable google images.

    Do you think that Bush cannot see that the photographs and the paintings are not exact?

    Really that is odd to argue that Bush is a failed photorealist, especially considering the other works that were leaked.

    Great artist's choices most certainly make for great works, but that is usually determined after the great artist shows the work, and often many years after the work has been shown. Most often the work, with great choices is derided as amateurish, or devoid of ability to paint.

    What makes the work great is the artist. Do you think that the choice of an asparagus is great for Manet? No, it is the fact that a great artist chose to paint an asparagus. To reduce a painting to decisions that are great would mean that anyone could study what made great decisions and then make great paintings. Does not happen that way, MO Blue.

    And as regards Warhol, his Brillo boxes are exact replicas of the company's boxes, yet they were transformative. Why? Because Warhol was a genus. Nothing to do with his choice.

    Sure he added colors, brilliantly to his silkscreens, but much of his work was deadpan copy. His 32 Campbell soup cans..

    Parent

    Silly? (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 04:23:19 PM EST
    Talk about silly and made of whole cloth. The long list of assumptions you are making about what Bush would or would not do in regards to his work are pretty silly and made out of whole cloth as well.

    Once again, Bush has received mixed reviews on his portraits. You agree with those who like them and I agree with those who have panned them.

    Parent

    Long List? (none / 0) (#202)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 04:32:47 PM EST
    I made no list about what Bush would or wouldn't do. Where did you get that?  The only opinion I have is that I think that the paintings are worthy of being called art. They are expressive and transformative.

    I have said nothing about Bush's choices, as I know nothing about them, save for the information you have provided.

    But for you to say that Bush tried his hand at photorealism and was not skilled enough to even come close, yet showed the paintings alongside the photographs is an absolutely ridiculous assertion.

    I do not think anyone has said that, even his harshest critics.

    Parent

    BTW (none / 0) (#192)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:56:58 PM EST
    you still skipped over what Vermeer traced?

    Parent
    Was Not There (none / 0) (#195)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 03:11:00 PM EST
    For all I know, Vermeer's assistant made all the choices.

    I was not there. I do believe that Vermeer painted the works. Unlike Rembrandt who had a large workshop and his assistants did much of the painting work.

    Parent

    and Caravaggio (none / 0) (#168)
    by ZtoA on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 10:55:23 AM EST
    and many many others. But I don't think these were projected. The dimensions are too distorted. Intentional distortions to convey a meaning are one thing....acceptance of distortions is one thing too...distortions while trying to "get better" are not so exciting.

    Apparently he has a good teacher. He is a good beginner. Odd he's being talked about as an artist and not as a failed president.

    Parent

    From the linked article (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 02:00:27 PM EST
    Art critic Deborah Solomon:

    "I would just like to point out they are basically very simple-minded as paintings," WNYC Radio's Deborah Solomon said to Huffington Post about Bush's "completely legitimate method" of tracing existing images to make his art.

    More from her interview with HuffPost:

    Although Solomon clarifies this technique is a "completely legitimate method" for postmodern contemporary artists, she notes that Bush doesn't transform his imagery in any way beyond simply copying it.


    Parent
    Far from it (none / 0) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:21:50 AM EST
    I own an overhead projector.  Just making an observation.

    Parent
    when I occasionally taught (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by ZtoA on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:30:32 AM EST
    an advanced figure painting class at our university I would have the students work from a projected picture for one exercise. It is not easy at all. You really have to think two dimensionally.  

    Parent
    As a teacher your experience has more weight (none / 0) (#178)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 12:29:01 PM EST
    yet I have participated in classes where this was one of the exercises. These were not advanced classes at the university level.

    The majority of the participants came away with very nice paintings with the help of the instructor. In most cases they were far better than the previous exercises where the student did their own drawing.

    Some people without much skill at drawing are very good with color and/or design. And others who draw very well are not as skilled with color and design.

    Parent

    Ignorance (none / 0) (#174)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:27:20 AM EST
    My comment was not related to yours. It was a response to #160, a comment that reflects naiveté about painting and its history.  

    Parent
    Never mind (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:42:48 AM EST
    Pulitzer Prize awarded for NSA stories (5.00 / 4) (#89)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:08:16 PM EST
    and Boston Marathon bombing.

    NEW YORK (AP) -- The Washington Post and The Guardian won the Pulitzer Prize in public service Monday for revealing the U.S. government's sweeping surveillance efforts in stories based on thousands of secret documents handed over by National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden.

    The Pulitzer for breaking news was awarded to The Boston Globe for its coverage of the deadly Boston Marathon bombing.

    The awards are American journalism's highest honor. link



    Text of the award: (5.00 / 4) (#97)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:42:02 PM EST
    Awarded to The Washington Post for its revelation of widespread secret surveillance by the National Security Agency, marked by authoritative and insightful reports that helped the public understand how the disclosures fit into the larger framework of national security.

    and

    Awarded to The Guardian US for its revelation of widespread secret surveillance by the National Security Agency, helping through aggressive reporting to spark a debate about the relationship between the government and the public over issues of security and privacy.

    I'm sure this has made more than a few heads explode.

    Parent

    I watched a (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:20:41 PM EST
    television program the other day.

    It depicted the inauguration of the president of the United States.

    He says the oath:

    I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

    It mentions the execution of the office. The details are not directly mentioned.

    What is directly mentioned is the defending of the Constitution of the United States.

    In my humble opinion, in recent history, presidents have done little or nothing to defend the Constitution.

    They have, instead, taken to bending, avoiding or shredding it.

    I'm sure it's well protected (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:25:40 PM EST
    Under that bullett proof glass.  Heck that's probably not even the real one.  It's probably in a vault someplace.

    Well protected and defended.

    Snark/

    Parent

    Lunar eclipse (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:16:58 PM EST
    BLOOD MOON

    In Los Angeles, the most impressive part will begin at 10:58 p.m. when the first "bite" is taken out of the moon. It will be blotted out entirely by 12:06 a.m. Tuesday, said experts at the observatory.
    Look to the south for the moon, said Joe Sirard, an amateur astronomer who is also a National Weather Service meteorologist in Oxnard.
    As the "bite" spreads across the moon, it will transform into a dark "blood moon." The dark red hue will come from the light of sunsets and sunrises over the rest of the

    Great minds think alike, Cap'n. (none / 0) (#154)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:49:13 PM EST
    ;-D

    Parent
    For christinep, et al.: (none / 0) (#1)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 03:15:43 PM EST
    You asked me a few weeks ago in an earlier thread my opinions about the increasingly heated Democratic primary for the late Sen. Dan Inouye's seat between Colleen Hanabusa and Brian Schatz. I replied in a somewhat circumspect way, given my own relationship with Schatz.

    Well, the bad blood between the two major factions in the Hawaii Democratic Party is now spilling out onto the public stage, as Gov. Neil Abercrombie openly questioned the veracity of the story surrounding the late senator's purported "last wish" in response to questions from L.A. Times reporters.

    Like I said to you and others here earlier, many of us expressed privately amongst our own selves our opinion that Inouye's final, "personal" letter to Abercrombie -- which somehow managed to get conveniently leaked to selected members of the D.C. media before the governor ever received it in Honolulu -- had been wholly manufactured by Inouye staffers as a means to box Abercrombie into a political corner. Well, now we're saying it publicly.

    Aloha.

    An intense primary, Donald (none / 0) (#123)
    by christinep on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:09:11 PM EST
    Thank you for updating us on the primary struggle in Hawaii.  OTOH the emotions stimulated by a heated primary have a certain kind of revving up on the party faithful; OTOH that situation vacuums up a lot of energy.  'Hope it all works out well for you and your position.

    This past weekend for Colorado Democrats was a big one ... the State Convention and the annual JJ Dinner on Saturday.  Thank goodness--given the national money and pressure aggregated against key Dems here--that there is almost complete unity throughout the party at the primary level.  In speaking with Maggie Fox (Senator Udall's wife) on Saturday, I did confirm that the Repub challenger is a threat in view of the "grumpy" mood in the state.  We also talked about the very positive anecdotal campaign advertising being employed by Alaska's Sen. Begich (ex. of portraying an appealing & cancer-surviving woman who was able to be insured, even with the pre-existing condition, because of Sen. Begich's good vote.  'Positive attitude about the benefits of ACA and how to magnify that.

    Parent

    Rainy here too (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 03:54:39 PM EST
    After several days 80s it's supposed to be in the twenties tonight.  Just got a freeze warning on the iPad.
    That's really going t mess with all things that are blooming and budding.
    Nit to mention possibly delaying my reception of Game of Thrones and Years of Livong Dangerously

    You made me look (none / 0) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:04:58 PM EST
    Tuesday low here is 39. Not freezing but profoundly weird.

    We built an aeroponic cloning system yesterday out of a food grade bucket.  You can also harvest from it though too so I need one for tomatoes and one for strawberries.  It works exactly as it is supposed to so far.

    Parent

    I hope you aren't visited by the DEA (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 08:24:17 PM EST
    like these Illinois residents, following visits to a local hydroponics equipment dealers.

    Interesting cases.  The cops interpreted the presence of marijuana "smell" in trash bags as evidence of a non existent grow-op.  They also interpreted the complete absence of marijuana smell or residue or indeed, any trace whatever, as proof that the citizen was covering up evidence of a grow-up, therefore, it was evidence of the existence of a grow-op.

    Who said cops were stupid, eh?

    Parent

    They are free to confiscate (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 09:18:06 PM EST
    My dragon wing begonia cuttings and I am free to write about it with photos at DailyKos.  I doubt they are remotely interested in me though.  If they are, well the only thing available to them is being pathetic and sorry.

    Parent
    That looks complicated (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:39:03 PM EST
    But interesting.

    Have you and yours seen Pacific Rim?  Watching it now.   Serious brainless fun.  Seriously brainless and seriously fun.  It's like a Guillermo del Toro updated Godzilla movie

    Parent

    We watched The Interns this morning (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:51:36 PM EST
    Which was really cute.

    The aeroponic system was pretty easy because all the pieces parts are clumped all over the net for sale due to everyone cloning marijuana.  The most expensive portion is the pump, it is about $25 because you want something designed for hydroponic systems and food grade.  I used 2 inch baskets, and have space for eight plants per bucket.

    I'm not sure I'll be able to keep up with 8 hydroponic tomato plants.  I'm thinking there will be give aways.

    Parent

    It's (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:32:48 PM EST
    actually nice here but I don't know what the rest of the week will bring. I'm not expecting to be out of freezing weather until after Easter.

    Parent
    not to rub it in or anything (none / 0) (#6)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:34:00 PM EST
    but we are having perfect weather here the last couple of days. Low 80s for the high, still cool at night. Slightly humid breezes.

    It won't last.

    Gearing up for GoT and the Mad Men premiere.

    Parent

    It's been perfect here to (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:40:07 PM EST
    80s daytime 50s night time.  Not for the next couple of days

    Parent
    Weather is nice here today (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:45:48 PM EST
    My husband is fixing the sprinkler heads at the top of the drive that everyone keeps running over.  He has to go back soon, and broken sprinkler heads make the system a little challenging when it gets really hot here.  We have all the baskets and planters on the system too.

    Tonight is going to be an excellent entertainment night though....HOORAY!  Not as exciting as our elevator forcing us to run up several stories of stairs and then run most of the way to Carnegie Hall, but close :)

    Parent

    It's 5 (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 05:07:08 PM EST
    Rainy is arriving ringt now.  Hopefully it will be gone by 8

    Parent
    Rain rain...go away (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 05:08:13 PM EST
    Starting to look like the rain gods may smile (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 07:39:03 PM EST
    On the cable gods.  Looks like about a two hour window from 8 to 10.  They probably fear the wrath of James Cameron.

    Parent
    That sounds entirely plausible. (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 08:21:49 PM EST
    Cameron could threaten to make Titanic II: A Stateroom With a View, and further cast Josh Hartnett and Kate Beckinsale as his leads, with John Voight as Hartnett's overbearing (and overacting) father, and Melissa McCarthy on hand as Beckinsale's wealthy but totally crude and uncouth best friend, who provides a bit of comic levity to the stressful situation as she curses like a stevedore at Voight and the other wealthy male passengers taking up precious space in the scarce number of lifeboats, and physically tosses each one of them overboard in order to make room for more poor immigrant women and children from steerage, before the great ship once again slides beneath the waters of the Rosarito Beach sound stage in Baja California, and then plunges into the Atlantic's briny and CGI-created deep.

    That ought to prove more than sufficient a deterrent to any deities worthy of their own divinity and omnipotence, giving them pause and causing them to think twice before proceeding to mess with your cable TV.

    ;-D

    Parent

    If it makes you feel any better, ... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 06:23:10 PM EST
    ... we're still getting our share of late winter weather out here in our mountains. When I flew to east Hawaii island for work on Friday morning, and as we commenced our decent toward the Hilo airport, I couldn't help but notice the glistening and large white caps on the summits of both Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa, liberally replenished with a fresh dusting of snow.

    That's none too common a sight here most Aprils, although overall this has been a particularly cold winter at the Mauna Kea Observatory Complex on the Big Island, according to the many scientists and technicians who live and work up there, with average daily temps in the mid-twenties and lots and lots of the white stuff.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I am pleased to hear... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by unitron on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 02:23:16 PM EST
    ...that your descent was not indecent.

    : - )

    Parent

    Last spring (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 06:39:07 PM EST
    There was a pretty significant snow storm here in May.

    Parent
    There certainly are areas of the country ... (none / 0) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 07:05:06 PM EST
    ... that could use the precipitation. But north of you, in and around the western Great Lakes region, the harsh winter and accompanying snows have been such that almost all of my cousins in northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin are fearing a potential repeat of the type of flooding they experienced in the late spring of 2008. Is there any similar talk amongst your neighbors in Arkansas?

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 07:17:47 PM EST
    Flash flood watches tonight.  It was like the 4 or 5 snowiest winter on record.  There was giant piles of plowed snow downtown melting on the first days of 80 degree temps.

    Pfft
    Downtown is a bit of an overstatement but you know

    Parent

    That's too bad. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 07:45:33 PM EST
    One of my cousins has a house along the Rock River just to the northeast of Janesville, WI. In most years, the house is about 50 yards from that river's edge, but in May and June of 2008 the river overflowed its banks extensively and was literally lapping at the stairs of his back porch and also the basement windows.

    While the large surrounding yard was obviously a complete muddy and silty mess when the waters eventually receded, having been under water for the better part of two or three weeks, the family was fortunate that their house and foundation are raised above ground level by about thirty inches and the foundation further acted as a floodwall which protected their basement. The structure itself was undamaged.

    But those neighbors whose homes were built in much closer proximity to the riverbank were not anywhere near as fortunate, and even today, only about half the owners who lost their homes have since rebuilt, and there are a number of empty waterfront lots on the road and in the immediate vicinity.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I accidentally rated this (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 09:32:44 PM EST
    Not that I don't like it but I would not usually rate a comment about someones misfortune a 5

    Parent
    One can change the number of the rating (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by DFLer on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:55:15 PM EST
    but can't remove it altogether, unfortunately

    Parent
    Turnabout's fair play, ... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:25:09 AM EST
    ... so I rated yours in retaliation.
    ;-D

    Parent
    However (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 07:25:08 PM EST
    They had it a good deal worse than us.  From 2007 to 2011 I lived in Champaign and in those years the weather there almost always was pretty close to the weather here.  I know that because of the family here.  But THIS year they got continually hammered.  I would watch the weather channel showing that jet stream cutoff in southern MO and think man oh man I am so glad I am no longer there to shovel that $hit.

    Parent
    Going to have (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 05:37:17 PM EST
    some serious hydrangea blooms  
    If the freeze diets kill them tonight

    Freeze diet (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 05:37:46 PM EST
    Whatever

    Parent
    One year (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 05:58:06 PM EST
    it froze when our hydrangeas were like yours are. It just delays them getting fully bloomed by a few weeks IIRC.

    But we did try to cover them one time with plastic bags but I'm not sure if we didn't leave them on too long because I'm not sure if helped too much.

    Anyway, my current house will not grow hydrangeas so I have given up on them.

    Parent

    These are not like any I have seen before (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 06:05:31 PM EST
    They are tree like. Much to big to cover with anything I have.  I guess I could go get some giant tarps but I will probably leave it Mother Nature.  But it's to bad. This is way more blooms than in have seen since I have lived here.

    Parent
    Btw (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 06:07:56 PM EST
    That pic is not mine.  But a very similar size.  There is one on each side of my front porch.

    Parent
    Oh (none / 0) (#23)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 06:49:35 PM EST
    wow that is a beautiful hydrangea! Are they common to look like that in your area? I mean it could be the soil. I know when I lived in central GA the hydrangeas got much bigger than they ever get here and the ones at the last house were probably 15 years old or more.

    But yeah, it would seem there really is nothing you can do about the freeze other than hope it doesn't do too much damage.

    Parent

    They are not (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 07:00:33 PM EST
    The low shrub type is what you always see.  When I bought the house the old lady told me what they were and no one believed it.  I had to find them online to prove tree hydrangeas existed.  Thank god for google.

    Parent
    In my current neighborhood (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by scribe on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 05:30:35 AM EST
    some of the neighbors have astonishing hydrangeas - huge and gobsmacking when in full bloom.  Last year they bloomed abundantly and then all winter the dried bloom clusters would be bouncing down the street like tumbleweeds.

    They're probably going on 100 or 120 years old.  The neighborhood is all old Victorian-era homes.  Remind me come late-May early-June and I'll see about getting pictures.

    The lilacs are of similar vintage and size, too.

    Parent

    Have a friend who does (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 07:52:31 PM EST
    Just to be clear (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:18:10 AM EST
    He is not onto the confederacy.  He is in fact probably the most militantly aggressive progressive democrat I know.  He just likes old stuff.


    Parent
    Well in that case... (none / 0) (#86)
    by unitron on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 02:25:04 PM EST
    "He is not onto the confederacy."

    ...it would seem that their secret remains unrevealed.

    : - )

    Parent

    Damn (none / 0) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:30:56 PM EST
    Spellcheck

    Parent
    The only reason... (none / 0) (#128)
    by unitron on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:20:42 PM EST
    ...my post worked was because you also did not capitalize "confederacy", thereby leaving it generic instead of obviously meaning the (not secret) CSA.

    Parent
    Very cool, I love that stuff too (none / 0) (#70)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:08:37 PM EST
    Slightly OT, I'm into my 4 year on and off Civil War binge, commemorating the 150 anniversary. There is an iPad app called CivilWarToday that is very good with old pictures, newspapers and maps from the current date, 150 years ago. Also reading the Shelby Foote series slowly, keeping up with the dates. And The Shaara historical fiction books.

    As we grind to the end, only one lesson seems clear, that occurred to me yesterday as I delved in again and read Foote trying to explain the inexplicable, and thinking of all the books that have been written, maps collected, documentaries produced, trying to make sense of the incomprehensible - what a total cluster#@%#@%.  

    Parent

    Well put (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:33:15 PM EST
    If you are interested I'm sure he would not mind if you followed his photography on his Facebook page.   With or without becoming a "friend"

    His name is Robert Beech.  And he is one of my favorite people.  Quick story.   Robert is odd, hence why I like him,.  We were at Disney together where they had/have regular figure drawing classes.  One night the model cancelled at the last minute and some one said, hey, we should just take turns.  Robert hopped up on the platform making everyone happy by taking the first shift and quickly proceeded to strip.  Completely.
    The controlled horror on the face of the uptight Disney widgets and the profoundly awkward tension that saturated that room for the next half hour is something I treasure and will take to my grave.  

    Parent

    Wonderful story. (none / 0) (#79)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:38:14 PM EST
    Chuckling aloud in my cubicle farm. I can imagine the reactions around here too, but you would think people in a drawing class would be more shock proof.

    I will look him up on FB and follow his work later from home...can't get to it here.

    We got moved to new cubicles on a side of the building with - horrors- terrible cell reception. My daytime iPhone use has dropped significantly!

    Parent

    Well exactly (none / 0) (#93)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:35:14 PM EST
    Roberts point, he alway has one they frequently make people squirm, is the ridiculous double standard that people have when they think nothing of staring at someone naked who they only see once a week in a drawing class but get all uncomfortable when it's someone they see in the halls everyday.  If we are honest I think most of us will find a bit of this double standard within us.  But it's stupid.

    Parent
    Slight segue: I am reading James McBride's (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:55:10 PM EST
    novel "The Good Lord Bird," centered on John Brown. Excellent.  

    Parent
    Climate Craziness (none / 0) (#36)
    by Slado on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 10:20:13 PM EST
    USA Today

    Hard to read this article and not think for a moment it didn't come from the "Onion".

    Burn trees and capture the CO2 and bury it underground?

    Phaseout of power plants that don't capture their own carbon?

    My favorite line was the one were the IPCC admits these actions "might" harm economic growth.

    This is exactly the point I routinely make.  All the money, all the hype, all the hysteria over this issue and this is what the serious scientists come up with?  

    Impossibly expensive and unproven technology that would obviously  ruin the world economy?

    If your going to try and save the world let's have some real solutions.

    Of course we all know in the backs of our minds there aren't any that will ever be enacted because no one is willing to accept the real costs.

    Ruin economies (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:29:48 AM EST
    Translation: human beings, in the desire to possess more inanimate objects of no intrinsic value, will destroy the lives of infinitely more human beings to do so.

    You do understand that people matter more than money, right?

    Because your entire comment is predicated on the assumption that money DOES matter more than people.

    We don't trade in seeds or cows or pelts or gold, we trade in fiat currency.

    Do you REALLY believe we can't make serious and quick change because trinkets should be valued above what is best for the planet and humanity?
     

    Parent

    Serious. (none / 0) (#41)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:09:27 AM EST
    All the money, all the hype, all the hysteria over this issue and this is what the serious scientists come up with?

    Serious scientists have come up with serious solutions.
    Some of them are outlined in the article to which you linked, but did not mention.

    I think that a major "moon landing" type of effort toward solar power is one.

    A major effort to create a modern network of public transportation - eg high-speed rail - is another.

    It is the government - hampered by the grip upon it by energy industries - that is doing nothing because in the short term it would impact negatively upon their profits.

    We need leadership from our government in order to implement some of the serious ideas that are indeed out there.

    But as long as our officials find their paychecks signed by these giant polluting industries, things will continue to plummet.

    Parent

    BTW - I like the part ... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Yman on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:43:09 AM EST
    ... where even the huge oil and insurance companies acknowledge the reality of global warming and the need to take action:

    "The risk of climate change is clear and the risk warrants action," William Colton, the company's (Exon Mobil) vice president of corporate strategic planning, said in a statement. He called for greater energy efficiency and research funding for emission-cutting technologies.

    ...

    "We need to finally take on board what the IPCC is telling us" from a risk management and business development perspective, says Mark Way,who works on sustainability issues for insurer Swiss Re. "The transition to a low carbon future is the only sensible choice."



    Parent
    Be of good cheer, Slado (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:48:38 PM EST
    No one takes either USA Today or the UN seriously anymore.

    And the more they spew nonsense the less they will be.

    Parent

    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 329 (none / 0) (#52)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:32:10 AM EST
    A hitchhikers guide to politics. (like)

    v. 328
    v. 327
    v. 326

    Rainy days and Mondays, my friends. Hope you all have great days. Peace.

    Meet the Clinton shoe-thrower (none / 0) (#53)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:34:42 AM EST
    Seems she might be obsessed with James Holmes, the accused Colorado movie-theater shooter.

    Alison Ernst, 36, of Phoenix, was identified Friday as the sneaker-tossing kook who targeted the former First Lady one day earlier during a speech at a Las Vegas casino.

    And Colorado officials confirmed she was the loopy lady escorted from the courtroom after a bizarre -- and bald-headed -- outburst during an August 2012 court hearing for Holmes.

    SNIP

    Las Vegas authorities brought the charges against Ernst after federal authorities opted not to prosecute, according to Secret Service spokesman George Oglivie. She apparently tossed a declassified 1967 Defense Department document before being led from the room.



    Another (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:08:06 AM EST
    example of the failings of our mental health system in this country it would seem.

    Parent
    E-yikes (none / 0) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:47:59 AM EST
    James enters my head like Dennis Quaid in `Innerspace' and he zooms to my heart and plays with it and forces me to care for him," read the rambling federal court document. "I seek a restraining order to stop Holmes from entering my mind through subliminal messaging and causing me to be obsessed with him on a daily basis."

    So much for the benefit of doubt about some legitimate grievance.  

    Oops (none / 0) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:48:43 AM EST
    That was supposed to be a reply to jbindc

    Parent
    Not sure (none / 0) (#60)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:24:26 AM EST
    Why she thought HRC could help her, but then again, she isn't a rational person.

    Parent
    Guess who is getting their (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:57:28 AM EST
    Taxes done in two hours

    The fruit of US extraterritorial tax policy (none / 0) (#58)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:58:22 AM EST
    Sounds like it's time (none / 0) (#65)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:42:26 AM EST
    for a "Top Gun" viewing party.

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- A Russian fighter jet made multiple, close-range passes near an American warship in the Black Sea for more than 90 minutes Saturday amid escalating tensions in the region, a U.S. military official said Monday.

    In the first public account of the incident, the official said the Russian Fencer flew within 1,000 yards of the USS Donald Cook, a Navy destroyer, at about 500 feet above sea level. Ship commanders considered the actions provocative and inconsistent with international agreements, prompting the ship to issue several radio queries and warnings.

    The fighter appeared to be unarmed and never was in danger of coming in contact with the ship, said the official, who was not authorized to talk publicly by name about the encounter so spoke on condition of anonymity. The passes, which occurred in the early evening there, ended without incident.

    The official also said that a Russian Navy ship, a frigate, has been shadowing the U.S. warship, remaining within visual distance but not close enough to be unsafe.



    Did anybody (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 05:26:33 PM EST
    else watch Mad Men last night? If you did what did you think?

    I'm guessing Megan doesn't know that Don lost his job. Well, technically he still has a job but is on "leave". Definitely did not see the same old Don Draper last night that we have seen in seasons past.

    I did (none / 0) (#141)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:35:10 PM EST
    Yes, it did seem Don is keeping that from Megan. Bad enough her driving the car and picking where to live - he would not want to be seen as unemployed as well.

    Did you suspect at the beginning the twist that was revealed at the end? I didn't, but in retrospect it was so obvious.

    Loved that Pete is the only one totally adapted to the new situation. Got the work for  4 H. Salt franchises! I remember those - not half bad fast food fish. My prediction- in 1970 he and Ted do the Crocker Bank commercial with 'We've Only just Begun'. Ted will be the ultimate Carpenters fan.

    Felt horrible for Peggy. She really is alone out there. But she and Joan will put it all together, I feel sure.

    Parent

    Given the Nielsen overnights, ... (none / 0) (#155)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:37:07 PM EST
    ... Mad Men looks to have had its most anemic season opener since 2008.

    The airport scene at the beginning of last night's episode, in which Don arrives at LAX and Megan picks him up, was filmed in front of the old, classic '60s-era terminal at LA-Ontario International Airport (ONT), which is actually some 50 miles east of the real LAX.

    Given its rather picturesque backdrop at the foot of the San Gabriel mountain range, Hollywood has long liked ONT for location shots in numerous films and TV shows, and LA World Airports (which owns and operates ONT) actually makes a tidy sum of money leasing the well-preserved former terminal for use in various productions.

    The airport first made its movie debut in the 1946 Oscar winner, The Best Years of Our Lives, filled with real-life war surplus aircraft being readied for the scrapyard. More recently, the old terminal doubled as Teheran Airport in Ben Affleck's 2012 Oscar-winner Argo, and again as '60s-era LAX in the 2013 Disney feature Saving Mr. Banks.

    I know and remember that terminal quite well, having flown in and out of there for years. It was finally closed in 1998, when the current and much more modern ONT terminal complex opened a half-mile further east of the old terminal and airport operations shifted there.

    But the old ONT terminal still retains a lot of its former charm, and walking around it gives you a real feel for what it was like to fly in the latter half of the 20th century.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Wonder if he cares (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 05:35:49 PM EST
    Or if being in the vicinity of a Jewish community is enough to deserve to die in his mind.

    (Reuters) - The suspect in the Passover Eve killings of three people at two Jewish community centers near Kansas City is a former Ku Klux Klan leader with history of spewing vitriol against Jews, law enforcement officials said on Monday.

    Frazier Glenn Cross, 73, faces local and federal prosecution on hate crime charges after his arrest on Sunday for a shooting spree that killed a teenager and his grandfather outside a Jewish community center, and a woman visiting her mother at a nearby Jewish retirement home.

    Both facilities are in Overland Park, Kansas, an upscale suburb outside Kansas City, Missouri. It was a bitter irony noted by many in the area that none of the victims was Jewish. The boy and his grandfather were members of an area Methodist church and the woman attended a Catholic church.




    I saw (none / 0) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:56:29 PM EST
    this earlier today and it was just sickening. When are all the shootings going to stop? Never I guess if the NRA has their way. If mowing down 22 school children wasn't enough then nothing is.

    Parent
    Just reading that (none / 0) (#138)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:27:44 PM EST
    Ms Nunn is raising gobs and gobs of money and the primary republicans are in a circular firing squad.  Think she can win?

    Parent
    I really don't know. (none / 0) (#158)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 06:49:41 AM EST
    I have read that the donors have been abandoning the GOP and running to Michelle. I know that being from a political family she knows how to run in the state and win. That being said you just never know. There are so many crackpots down here in GA that will never vote for a woman. I expect Michelle to pull a good many votes from woman in the Atlanta suburbs but I don't know if it will be enough to win. She's got a pretty good chance I would say right now because the inmates are running the assylum in the GA GOP and then we have Nathan Deal with three corruption cases filed against him winding their way through court.

    Parent
    BTW, Jim (none / 0) (#111)
    by Yman on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:03:38 PM EST
    In the land of reality, Exxon Mobil is one of the biggest funders (if not the biggest funder) of the deniers.

    Guess that puts your latest, silly theory to bed.

    It's a full eclipse that will produce a spectacular "blood moon," commencing at 12:53 a.m. EDT. The moon will be in full eclipse and its red stage by 3:00 a.m. EDT and it will end about 6:00 a.m. I know it's the wee hours for many of you folks, but if you're up, take a look outside and check it out.

    But if the weather looks bleak in your area, and tonight's forecasts aren't exactly promising for much of the eastern half of the country, you'll have another opportunity to enjoy a full "blood moon" eclipse on October 8 of this year. We're in a rare lunar cycle called a tetrad, which will produce a full lunar eclipse at six-month intervals over the next 18 months, starting with tonight's.

    Aloha.

    My inner clock got me out of bed (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 10:14:00 AM EST
    for the major portion of the spectacular Blood Moon eclipse.  Wonderful to gaze at the moon above and the city lights below.  Extra special for me because April 15th is a special birthday for me ... though, admittedly, I love all my birthdays.

    To enjoy fully the day, I'll begin now with a long walk with my puppy dog on this delightful greening spring morning.

    Parent

    Happy B'day Christinep!! (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 10:32:58 AM EST
    please do not rate comments a "1" (none / 0) (#205)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 08:41:38 PM EST
    based on point of view. A "1" is for trolls.
    I cannot undo individual ratings, only all ratings for a particular commenter. Inappropriate "1" ratings will result in all your ratings being deleted, which I don't want to have to do, but will if the practice continues.

    Michael Bloomberg (none / 0) (#206)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 07:20:37 AM EST
    ... Plans a $50 Million Challenge to the N.R.A.

    Michael R. Bloomberg, making his first major political investment since leaving office, plans to spend $50 million this year building a nationwide grass-roots network to motivate voters who feel strongly about curbing gun violence, an organization he hopes can eventually outmuscle the National Rifle Association.

    Mr. Bloomberg, the former mayor of New York, said gun control advocates need to learn from the N.R.A. and punish those politicians who fail to support their agenda -- even Democrats whose positions otherwise align with his own.

    "They say, `We don't care. We're going to go after you,' " he said of the N.R.A. " `If you don't vote with us we're going to go after your kids and your grandkids and your great-grandkids. And we're never going to stop.' "

    He added: "We've got to make them afraid of us."

    The considerable advantages that gun rights advocates enjoy -- in intensity, organization and political clout -- will not be easy to overcome. Indeed, Mr. Bloomberg has already spent millions of dollars trying to persuade members of Congress to support enhanced background check laws with virtually nothing to show for it.

    Good for him.  Go get 'em Michael!