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Thursday Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 06:26:35 PM EST
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Just getting home from work and I see our last open thread is full. Here's another one. All topics welcome.

I hope to get something substantive posted after checking the news later tonight.

< Wednesday Night Open Thread | Congrats to Chelsea Clinton and Husband Marc >

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    Thursday Night Open Thread | 174 comments (174 topical)

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    Is it time to STFU? (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:30:22 PM EST
    It might just be.

    enrollment hits 8 million

    President Obama says that enrollment under the Affordable Care Act has reached 8 million after the March 31 sign-up deadline was extended by two weeks.

    "This thing is working," he told reporters at a White House briefing on Thursday.

    The president said that 35 percent of those signing up through the federal government's website were under the age of 35. The need for younger, healthier individuals to enroll in the program is considered vital to the success of Obamacare.

    No. (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:53:54 PM EST
    The latest data from the International Federation of Health Plans, an industry group representing health insurers from 28 countries including the United States, once again illustrates that American patients pay the highest prices in the world for a variety of prescription drugs and common procedures like childbirth and hospital stays.

    And despite the persistent claims by nearly anyone holding or seeking public office in the U.S. that America has the best health care system in the world, there's scant evidence that we're getting higher-quality medical treatment or enjoying healthier lives than our counterparts abroad. What's more, the U.S. still leaves tens of millions of its own citizens without health coverage, and will continue to do so even a decade into the implementation of Obamacare.

    Full text.

    So, no.
    It's not the time to STFU.

    It's time to question why we don't have universal healthcare and why the government continues to let us be gouged by big pharma and the hospital industry.

    Parent

    Or change the subject (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:55:58 PM EST
    That works too

    Parent
    And the (none / 0) (#21)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:03:52 PM EST
    "subject" was...?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:11:22 PM EST
    at least you are trying to fix the problems. Conservatives are all gloom and doom. You are precisely right that it did nothing to solve the cost of healthcare in this county which is taking a lot of money out of the middle class.

    That being said aren't you at least glad that some people are going to have insurance that they didn't have before? That maybe they can get treatment for a chronic health issue or maybe just have to pay a copay to see a doctor?

    And then what about the people that now can get Medicaid and get some care? Can't you at least be glad for them?

    Parent

    I can (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:52:56 PM EST
    feel glad for anyone who benefits from any government program.

    What I don't like is being told that maybe it's time to STFU.

    From what I read, some benefit from this, others don't.

    From what I read, what is being celebrated is that we are approaching the level of insured people that existed in 2008 when Obama took over from W.

    I think I have every right to ask why other nations like France and the Netherlands have UNIVERSAL healthcare - and not us.

    And I don't like being portrayed as a whiner for asking.

    And I don't like being asked to STFU.

    Just sayin'...

    Parent

    If it makes any difference (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:59:11 PM EST
    Of if it doesn't
    It was really more directed to the legions of naysayers who have set their hair on fire at every hiccup in the process.

    The fact is, it's working just as it was supposed to.  You may or may not like what it was supposed to do
    But it's doing it

    Parent

    The thing (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by lentinel on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:12:58 AM EST
    I was taking exception to was your "Subject" - stating that it might be time to shut the fk up about criticizing the ACA.

    "Hiccups" in the rollout of the system wouldn't have bothered me if I didn't feel that this whole thing is flawed by the compromises made to industrial and commercial interests from the start.

    Anecdotal evidence states that some people have benefitted. Others have found their rates going up. And at the end of it all, all citizens are not covered.

    I can't help contrast that with other countries ALL of whose citizens have healthcare as a right.

    If millions are still without insurance, and others are finding their rates climbing, and hospital stays and medication are priced so high (relative to other countries) it speaks of a continuing imbalance in the availability of universally available healthcare, it is not a time to shut up about it.

    To be pleased that the machinery may be working at this time is one thing - but, as you say, the thing for me is coming to terms with what that machinery is supposed to do - and what it is not supposed to do. And it does not seem to me that it is set up to provide universal healthcare.

    Parent

    Obamacare: The Metrics (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 08:11:04 AM EST
    in the News are Mostly Wrong

    From a few weeks ago:

    Story after story followed essentially this pattern, which has now become the familiar metric for judging year one success for Obamacare.  Here's how it goes.  If the law gets about six million enrollees nationwide and a decent percentage of them are young people, the risk pool will be stable and premiums next year will be reasonable. Year one will be a success.  If it doesn't the law will be in trouble and year one will be a failure.  The problem is that just about everything about this narrative is wrong.  It's the equivalent of judging the local weather from national averages.

    SNIP

    Of course getting to six million has become a political milestone and that won't change. But the real questions are: Are the premiums (net of the tax credits the government is providing) affordable to people? Will they be stable or begin to spike in year two in some parts of the country if the risk pool is worse than insurers expected? Do people who get coverage under the law think it's a good deal or not? Does enrollment ramp up as expected over time, decreasing the number of Americans uninsured? The current focus on national enrollment numbers and signups by young adults doesn't tell us a great deal about the answers to these questions, and they are not a good metric by which to judge year one success.

    The problem is that it will take time to learn if the mix of enrollees is healthier or sicker, and how premium increases vary around the country, and how people feel about their coverage. Meanwhile Republican politicians will lambast the law and Democratic ones will offer lukewarm support and overall popularity of the ACA probably won't change very much.  Anybody willing to wait for a judgment based on the right metrics?

    So, no, it isn't time to STFU and accept what either the WH or Republican talking points are.


    Parent

    My personal favorite down the rabbit hole (none / 0) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:11:32 AM EST
    BS republican talking point is -- " wellllllll, we don't know how many people are insured who were not insured before."

    Hey here's an idea to bring more than 5 million uninsured people into the pool over night.

    TAKE THE DAMN MEDICAID EXPANSION

    Parent

    If conservatives (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:44:40 PM EST
    had any sense they would be saying that Obama used one of their programs and saying see!!! consevative programs actually work!! But no, they are continuing on the gloom and doom tact. I can't take any more gloom and doom from them. They've been nothing but gloom and doom for almost a quarter of a century now and it's tiresome.

    I asked one of my friends of facebook could he not at least be glad for the people that now have insurance and stop the negativity? He said he was glad but at what cost? They just cant do it. They just can't say I'm glad people are getting insurance with some sort of condition about it. He said we should have "fixed" Medicaid. Well, I'm not sure what he meant by "fixing" but I would imagine it's along the same lines of Paul Ryan's plan to "fix" Medicare which is basically to destroy the program.

    I've been a critic of Obama but he should be taking a victory lap on this one. The program is far from perfect but at least some of the insured are now insured.

    Parent

    And at 8 mil (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:55:04 PM EST
    Even if some don't pay the bill or whatever (actually never understood why anyone would go through the nightmare of enrolling and not pay the bill, BUT) they will still have a very safe base of people.
    And the percentage of younger people is well above what was required to prevent big rate hikes

    Parent
    I would think (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:13:46 PM EST
    that people would pay the bill because if they coulnd't afford the bill they would not be signing up. I mean it tells you right away what your costs are going to be does it not?

    I would think the biggest problem would be the one that you had that the insurance companies can't handle what is going on and actually get the bills out to the people. I mean this is a lot for them to handle and I'm not sure if they are hiring additional people to handle the additional work that is required with each policy.

    Parent

    It does of course (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:18:55 PM EST
    But incredibly that was one of the "death spiral" fantasies.
    OH MY GOD 20% HAVE NOT PAID THEIR BILL.

    Don't ask me.  I just report

    Parent

    I know (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 07:39:49 AM EST
    It's all gloom and doom and the end of the world for them. Even here in GA they act like it's the end of the world and they control all the levers of government. I told one facebook friend that was making all these dire predictions that the GOP has changed from being a political party into an apocalyptic cult.

    Parent
    Republicans are single-minded on the ACA, ... (none / 0) (#112)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 03:22:02 PM EST
    ... not unlike a high school prom queen who's determined to leave the dance with the boy who brought her, never mind that he's now sloppy drunk and leaning out the car door, puking.

    Parent
    Fads In Art? (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:56:35 PM EST
    There are fads in art, just as there are fads in everything, aren't there?  Would you have me believe that no artist has ever ridden a fad, creating works to appeal to buyers looking to have the latest this or that?

    No fads, and is does appear that you have a rather cynical attitude toward artists, imo.

    Artists create work, sometimes it gets popular and then falls out of favor, not so different from fashion but on a much slower time table. Abstraction is sometimes favored over figurative works, photography more popular than painting, and so on. These trends shift over years, back and forth and into new areas not yet known.

    Really good artists continue making work even when it is not selling. Sometimes their work is not selling because it is not what people are interested in at any given time. That could be because their work is ahead of the curve or it is behind the curve and old fashioned. More often than not time catches up and the art is eventually appreciated.

    Artists who make work for a fad are not artists but designers, or commercial entrepreneurs making a product. I do not know any artists who do what you describe, and I know a lot of artists both as an artist and as a collector.

    It may be that you are not experienced with contemporary art and think that there are scams going on by artists. That is not uncommon for people who cannot believe someone would pay money for things they do not understand. No one wants to get laughed at for liking something that may be a joke on them.

    That is why the emperors new clothes is so oft a metaphor for art that is expensive and not accessible to uneducated people. And by uneducated, I mean educated in art history and contemporary practice. Many college educated people believe that they have taste and cultural education so they know how to tell what good contemporary art is. Well it is not so easy, contemporary art is like a language that has a lot of vocabulary which is learned by immersion.

    Funny that people who did not study nuclear physics do not think that they would know the difference between one equation and another. But with contemporary art, many feel expert.

    That's because art invites the personal (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:26:28 AM EST
    In Anne's defense it would be easy to think that since she's not a professional artist. And looking at what sells big one could easily become cynical. I don't know why certain artists, curators and critics go out of their way to insult art laypeople saying that the art is good because it is not liked by the general population (I know that is not what you are saying, but some do). I can understand that from the occasional (usually local) critics since they want to be the taste makers and would be out of a job if everyone decides for themselves.

    Even for artists it is easy to become cynical since the $$$ in art is certainly a corrupting influence. An artist truly has to love art, and not just their own, to avoid that.

    I, personally think it is a weakness in art if an expensive exclusive education is necessary to appreciate art. It definitely helps tho. Too often contemporary curators depend too much on art jargon. This is not rocket science. It is philosophy tho which requires some study.

    Parent

    Education (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:07:48 AM EST
    I was not expecting anyone to go to art school to become educated, although I see how that may have been implied. No, the education I was talking about means going to galleries on a regular basis, asking questions, reading books, going to the library and looking at lots of pictures of art, IOW being interested in contemporary Art, and art in general.

    Going to a museum a few times a year does not make for an education in the complex world of contemporary practice.

    As for the critics, I usually think of them as failed artists who have an axe to grind. Occasionally there are ones who seem to be doing it for the love but in general pretty petty crowd, IMO.

    Yes, and I can empathize with people who cannot believe people would spend money on what appears to be a heap of trash...
    It becomes clearer with lots of exposure, but hilariously, in the end of lots of study the heap of trash you saw in the beginning may still look like a heap of trash.

    Parent

    OK, I see what you mean (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 10:58:49 AM EST
    I see small groups of people at openings often. I don't think they are collectors (and Portland is a very inexpensive market relatively). They are open and ask questions. I think it is like a book club, they go out to several openings and then go out to a restaurant and talk about it. I think it is a great way to get that kind of education and seems to be a lot of fun too.

    I completely agree about most critics. The worst ones have never taken art history 101, or they're all about getting laid, or want their very own clique. I shouldn't say any more about critics.

    Did you ever see the episode in The Simpsons where Homer becomes a "modern artist"? I think it was that he tried to assemble a fire pit but couldn't so he threw the heap of junk onto his front lawn. He is "discovered"! The characters of the art people are hilarious. He creates more heaps of junk, but in the end he just ends up with a bunch of unintentional mindless heaps of junk. Its partly funny because real artists don't do that.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:08:28 AM EST
    That sounds like a really good way to gain experience and enter into what is going on with contemporary art. Fun too! Nice to talk about stuff with other people. Most of my experience, not including art school, was just seeing stuff, and thinking about it, usually not much discussion other than occasionally when a show was really great, really bad but hyped up, or controversial.

    NYC is a good place because there is soooooooo much art to see. Keeping up with it is almost a full time job, I have slacked off in recent years, but used to go out and see everything worth seeing, and some not worth seeing.

    Never really watched the Simpsons, I think I saw a few of them or parts of shows, but that one sounds like a funny episode.


    Parent

    Portland has a very friendly art scene (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:20:55 AM EST
    Higher priced and larger markets less so. Many artists here are friendly and supportive of each other, going to each other's openings and studios and out for coffee and drinks too. It is why many painters choose to live here. It's harder to make a living tho.  I think if I lived in NYC I would be overwhelmed. A visit now and again is great tho. My daughter lives in LA, and a beloved niece too so I get there regularly and have  had time to begin to explore it. Too often just get tied up at the Getty tho. LA gallery recommendations would be welcome. I've begun checking out the galleries in Chicago but cannot really get a feel for them yet. Love the Art Institute and the sculpture park. The new(ish) contemporary wing has closed the top floor and lent out all that work (I think it is in Dallas) because of a design flaw letting in too much direct sunlight.  Renzo Piano has to fix it.

    Parent
    Do you expect to see the Al Wei exhibit (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 10:46:57 PM EST
    in Brooklyn?  

    Parent
    Did Not Know About It (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:11:38 AM EST
    Brooklyn Museum?  Sure I will check it out. His work does not resonate with me but I do admire him. I love it that he used to be a quick sketch portrait artist near central park in the early 80's.

    Parent
    Roberta Smith [NYT] (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:56:01 AM EST


    Parent
    did you hear about that LA gallery closing (none / 0) (#85)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:07:05 AM EST
    link

    There must be a very interesting backstory on that.

    Parent

    Probably Not So Interesting (none / 0) (#89)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:14:37 AM EST
    The NY gallery was really glitzy but never showed anyone particularly interesting. Seemed very superficial, so I am not surprised that he ran into trouble, as his talents were limited art wise but seemed to be making financial play.

    Must have backfired and he did somethings that pissed off rich people, who sued.

    He is not missed, imo, at least by me and my art friends.

    Parent

    Well that's in interesting take on it (none / 0) (#91)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:22:53 AM EST
    It looks like the artists were stiffed too.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:02:52 PM EST
    Artists are on the bottom of the creditors list, if even there, usually.

    John Weber, a super talented dealer, was sued by his famous artists and lost. His artists wound up owning the gallery so he showed crappy art and drank all day in the back office. Sad story. some of the criminal art dealers are also quite talented and do great things along with the bad.

    John Gibson was notorious for ripping off artists who would sue, he would lose and then do it again. One artist, no longer with us, sued him many times, always won, said that Gibson must have been a masochist because he never settled and always lost.

    But he was also a great dealer, with a great program.

    Parent

    Gabriel Garcia Marquez... (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by desertswine on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:04:52 PM EST
    has passed away; a brilliant writer.

    Someone mentioned this in the last thread (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:08:37 PM EST
    Very sad.  Love in the Time oF Cholera is one of the few books I have read more than once.

    Parent
    Serendipity (none / 0) (#38)
    by CoralGables on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:21:59 PM EST


    Parent
    Great book. Not so great movie. (none / 0) (#39)
    by vml68 on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:22:27 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    Never saw the film (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:30:48 PM EST
    But I heard that

    Parent
    concur (none / 0) (#41)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:32:59 PM EST
    Not horrible, but reading parts of the book again is a better use of 2 hours.

    Parent
    Interesting Approach Z to A (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:14:49 PM EST
    I often like to look at paintings that I don't like. If I force myself to look, and not look away, and take some time then there is an amazing inner process that rather alchemically changes my perception. It leads to a psychological read and that is rewarding. Best high I have experienced.

    I will try that sometime.

    What I do, which is a little similar is look at work I do not like but that is either considered historically important, or popular. Being a basically greedy person, I would prefer to get high from looking at as many things as I can, so I try to find out why people adore a certain artist that I abhor.

    So I ask people, when I see them drooling and cooing in front of an artwork that I do not get, what is it about the piece (or artist) that makes you love it (or them). I am often surprised because their answer provides me with threads with which I can enter the artwork and start to enjoy it.

    That makes me happy, one less artist I can't stand moving to the admiration category.


    I will try that (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:37:42 PM EST
    And see if I can get someone to explain Keith Haring to me.

    Parent
    Does Not Always Work (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:57:32 PM EST
    But it is always interesting, and when it works WOW... another drug, I mean artist, to get high on.

    Parent
    You don't like Keith Haring? (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by ZtoA on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 11:22:40 PM EST
    Surprised. I saw a roomful of his work at the Broad when it was still in Venice (CA) and was by appointment only. Called and pretended to be a scholar. His work there was large (Broad likes that), very large, and odd and creepy. I came to really enjoy art based both on comics and graffiti. Next time you look at a Haring get really really close to the monitor. Works for me.

    Parent
    Harings in Frederick Weinstein's (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by oculus on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:54:41 AM EST
    collection in L.A. also.  

    Parent
    Yes! (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 01:04:32 AM EST
    I can't thank you enough for pointing this collection out to me. I thoroughly loved seeing it. And the Sandro Chia's - amazing. It was one of the most bizarre collections I've ever seen. So very California! I saw a great private collection in Seattle. Mostly muted colors and exciting grays with great glass too. There was a small Leonora Carrington there, just rounded a corner and there it was. I've only seen one other private collection in California and it was bright and varied and happy/light of spirit too even tho not all the pieces were light of spirit. The overall impression was tho.  

    Parent
    And when you find that someone, ... (none / 0) (#111)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 02:53:12 PM EST
    CaptHowdy: "And see if I can get someone to explain Keith Haring to me."

    ... please invite me to listen in, because I also never understood Haring's appeal.

    But then, artistic rube that I am, I never really got Andy Warhol either. I just learned to shut up about it because whenever I said that, people would look at me aghast, as though I had just strolled into the middle of the Museum of Modern Art and then farted very loudly.

    ;-D

    Parent

    OK I'll give it a try (none / 0) (#113)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 03:46:09 PM EST
    Haring originated as a graffiti artist and was one of the first, along with friend Basquiat, were some of the fist to be accepted into the fine art world. But the fine art world is not how he started out.

    In college he was a prolific graffiti artist and had an easily recognizable style. Anyone could read them, no matter what age or native language. They were often political too. Squeaky spoke of going to galleries and museums to get familiar with art, and Keith brought the art to people - in subways where they were not expecting it. So he became a symbol and recognized by many New Yorkers who were simply commuting.  Art historian Henry Geldzahler called them ''a tuneful celebration of urban commonality.''

    He transitioned to work on canvas and was extremely prolific. His images are energetic, alive, youthful, and even when he is making a criticism of something they look happy. His work is refreshing no matter how dark his subject.

    His work can be rather two dimensional tho. His work, as it progressed, seemed to not go deeper, just more and more. He died of AIDs at 31.

    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:21:06 PM EST
    I get the subway appeal.  I lived in NY when he did that work and when he died.  I get honoring him and his memory.  But I do not get those silly little stick figures that I loved to see in the subway in museums.  I just don't.  
    And for some reason it bugs me because I think in some ways his life and work are being exploited by people who are smart and connected enough to do it and he will never benefit from it.  But at least his name won't die.

    Btw
    I don't put him and Basquiat in the same basket.  Basquiats work is rich and complex.

    Parent

    Partly agree (none / 0) (#121)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 05:36:32 PM EST
    but being immersed in a roomful of very large complex paintings of his at a museum, I think there is a place for him. He did work that was much more interesting and complex than his simple one liners. Basquiat is way more interesting IMO too.

    About him being exploited - Yes I agree. Dealers and curators have historically had a tacit...how should I say this..."cooperation" about promoting artists. There's a lot of money involved. Sadly artists who can't stomach the game don't get to play or are unwillingly exploited. Another reason to live in the art backwaters of Portland. In NY it seems like you either win the Game of Art, or you die.

    Haring mural.

    another

    You are most likely such a great draftsman that his style bothers you. Don't blame you at all for that!

    Parent

    The murals are impressive (none / 0) (#122)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 05:55:50 PM EST
    But I to often see people paying way IMOway  to much for the stick figures.  Part of the game I guess.  As I said, I'm glad his name will live even if I think it is being exploited.

    Parent
    Pop Shop (none / 0) (#125)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 06:14:35 PM EST
    I do not think of Haring as an exploited artist. He was very shrewd when it came to his career and market, imo.

    Parent
    Thanks. I appreciate the attempt. (none / 0) (#134)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 06:58:50 AM EST
    I tend to like graffiti art, as opposed to tagging. My favorite current work is by Banksy from England. He hit L.A. when I was working there a few years ago, and there was this billboard near the DGA building in Hollywood that had an ad for a Las Vegas casino, which he redecorated (and improved). Keith Haring's stick men just don't compare well to that.

    Parent
    funny quip by Warhol (none / 0) (#114)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 03:49:33 PM EST
    One interviewer asked him if his art seemed repetitive (after the multiples of soup cans). He, deadpan, answered "yes".

    Parent
    Andy (none / 0) (#124)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 06:08:11 PM EST
    Was definitely in on the joke

    Parent
    Agreed that he was in on the joke. (none / 0) (#133)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 06:39:42 AM EST
    I just never understood Warhol's appeal.

    When I was still at UW in Seattle, my then-girlfriend and I went to see some film produced by Warhol (or directed by him, I really don't remember which) called "Heat," which I think was about some washed-up child actor named Joe who had turned into a long-haired hippie dude, and anyway he was being seduced by some oversexed and overweight woman who I think was his landlady, and then they were interrupted by some deranged lesbian who burst in on the scene crying and asking for a band-aid. I considered it tedious and a big waste of time, and I remember everyone raved about Warhol's film work being avant-garde, I found it pretentious and self-absorbed.

    I guess the joke was on me.

    Parent

    I get that (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 08:59:02 AM EST
    I can't really be objective because just as I was coming out in the early 70s I made some friends who were in that circle.  One of the first was a model (legit advertising, very rich jet set type) who was in the in crowd name Joe McDonald.  I think Andy's portrait of Joe is in one of the museums in NY.  Joe used to take me everywhere like the DJs booth and green room of 54 .  I met lots of the insiders including Andy, Sylvia Miles  etc through Joe.  One of the most unforgettable nights of my life was one of those first nights at 54.  We walked in and the DJ booth literally looked like a Hirschfeld drawing.  There was Faye Dunaway in a giant lopsided hat, Capote in another hat.  Grace Jones and Daine Von Fuestenberg.  And us.  All in a space about 30 sq feet
    Another was aa art dealer named Leonard Barton who I met through Joe.  I worked for Leonard in his business for a couple of years in the early 70s.  Leonard and his partner had a third roommate. Candy Darling.  Had several dinners with Loenard Walter and Candy at Maxs Kansas City.  One with a friend of mine who did not know she was a man and was furious with me for not telling him until after the dinner.  You seriously could not tell.  Candy was the most perfect drag illusion possibly ever.  Tiny little hands porcelain skin.  Any way I knew then that Andy was a bit of a salesman but you can probably understand why a poor inexperienced hick piece of chicken with nothing going for me but looks and innocence would be permanently effected by the experience.  And I was.

    To this day when I look at Warhol art all I can think of are those halcyon days.  And I get a warm fuzzy feeling.

    Parent

    Btw (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 09:11:18 AM EST
    that was when I looked like this

    Parent
    Elvis and Redford! (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 09:55:58 AM EST


    Parent
    Ha (none / 0) (#138)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 10:44:31 AM EST
    How the hell did that become Andy Rooney and Sheldon Adelson?

    Parent
    Handsome!!! (none / 0) (#141)
    by ZtoA on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 11:55:50 AM EST


    Parent
    And when Joe (none / 0) (#155)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 05:26:43 PM EST
    looked like this

    Maybe the saddest part is that dying when and how he did it's nearly - not nearly, actually - impossible to find a single mention that doesn't include something like this one did--

    A gorgeous model with work to burn in the late '70s and early '80s, Macdonald became a very early and high-profile face of AIDS in the industry when he passed away from the then-new and terrifyingly unpredictable disease.

    Parent

    Just so we are clear (none / 0) (#139)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 11:17:25 AM EST
    I actually worked for Leonard.  I had sex with Joe eagerly and often but it never really came up with Leonard.  He and his partner were old Jewish queens who liked being seen with attractive men on their arms.  And were. Frequently.  Most of the guys who worked for Leonard were moonlighting as actors or models.
    Trust me I would not bother to lie about it.

    Parent
    Joe (none / 0) (#140)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 11:23:19 AM EST
    the dark part of the story

    Parent
    (Sigh!) What a sad ending ... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 02:23:07 PM EST
    ... for someone whose life once held such promise. That June 1983 article is also quite interesting in and of itself, as a window to the past showing us how really very little we actually knew about AIDS at the time of your friend Joe's death.

    I lost one of my very best friends to AIDS in March 1998. We'd known each other since our freshman days at an all-boys Catholic high school in Pasadena in the mid-1970s, but he only came out to me a decade later after we were both out of college, when I was going through a divorce and feeling quite sorry for myself. All those years, I quite honestly did not have a friggin' clue that he was gay, and would never have guessed had he not decided to be totally open with me. (I now find that both humorous and terribly ironic, given all the gay and lesbian friends we have and enjoy today.) He was first diagnosed with HIV in 1992 when he was 31 years old and living in San Francisco, and by the summer of 1995 we all pretty much knew that this was not going to end well for him.

    Every time I think of my friend, I also can't help but recall a time way back in the winter of 1988 when a very prescient University of Hawaii microbiology professor warned state legislators at a public hearing that (a) based on her own research and professional experience, AIDS was one of the most insidious diseases that she had ever seen, with a viral dormant / incubation period that could possibly last for years before become activated, and (b) the near-exponential growth in individual diagnoses at the time was such that before the 20th century concluded, most of us would know someone either afflicted with AIDS itself or infected with its root virus, which I believe was called HTLV-III back then. Sadly, the subsequent years proved her all too tragically correct.

    Aloha.

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    The saddest part is that (none / 0) (#146)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 03:36:35 PM EST
    Piece about Joe was a beginning not an ending.  In fact nearly all the people mentioned as my friends in that story were dead by 1990 . Joe, Leonard, Walter, Candy, my friend who was angry with me after dinner with Candy, Andy of course and so many many others.
    Joe was actually one of the first high profile aids deaths. That article ushered in a very dark decade indeed.  It was one of the first of many as was Joe.

    Parent
    Donald I had the same reaction to his films (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by ZtoA on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 12:01:08 PM EST
    but not to his paintings. Love them. And they are beautiful to see in person. Heard a story about when he was working on his Marilyn Monroe series. He had 12 (I think it was) Marilyns stacked up against a wall and an intruder came into his studio and took a gun out and shot Marilyn in the forehead. The shot went all the way thru all the paintings. They became known as the "Shot Marilyns" and greatly increased in value.  

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    Paul Morrissey (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 01:21:14 PM EST
    Heat, Trash, Flesh, Blood for Dracula, Flesh for Frankenstein etc. were directed by Paul Morrissey, Warhol ... IMDB:

    In 1965, he was introduced to Andy Warhol, who asked him to contribute ideas and bring new direction to the film experiments he had been recently begun presenting -- others had been suggesting, and in a very limited sense, directing these early experiments, but they remained in a static, relatively primitive state. From then on, Morrissey not only directed all of the films but signed a management contract with Warhol putting him in charge of all operations at the Warhol studio with the exception of the sales of artwork. It was Morrissey's idea that Warhol's celebrity name be used to promote a rock n' roll group; to that end, he discovered 'the Velvet Underground', added Nico to the band and signed them all to a management contract. While administering the very successful early years of the group, he continued to add story ideas, casting, cinematography and direction to all of the film experiments that Warhol presented from My Hustler (1965) and Chelsea Girls (1966) through Imitation of Christ (1967) and Bike Boy (1967); Morrissey acted as the films' distributor as well.

    After Lonesome Cowboys (1968), which was written, produced and directed by Morrissey from start to finish, he assumed total control of all subsequent films presented by Andy Warhol -- from the art house/cult classics Flesh (1968), Trash (1970) and Heat (1972) to his more mainstream successes with the Carlo Ponti/Jean-Pierre Rassam productions Flesh for Frankenstein (1973) and Blood for Dracula (1974).

    Morrissey parted company with Warhol in 1975....

    Andy Warhol directed other films, most notably Empire..

    Parent

    There IS some of Warhol's work that I like. (none / 0) (#144)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 01:33:05 PM EST
    But oftentimes when viewing his paintings, I get the distinct impression that he would paint something like the Campbell's soup can just to see if he could actually reproduce it in minute detail on canvas, without any offering any underlying message or overarching statement on the human condition.

    Just my opinion, obviously, I think Warhol was motivated to paint Marilyn Monroe because like so many other people, he adored her and was captivated by both her beauty and her vulnerability. I consider him a literalist as a painter, and he certainly couldn't help it if others chose to read more into his work product than what was either intended or really there.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Oh one other funny bit (none / 0) (#147)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 03:41:55 PM EST
    I forgot to mention up there was that the Joe you mentioned who was in Heat was Joe Dalesandro.  Joe became one of the more infamous Warhol characters.  And I met him a few times because of Leonard.  See aside from being  star Joe was a straight up hustler.  Leonard and Walter has semi regular appointments with Joe.  Several times he showed up at work right around cocktail hour and leave with the boss.

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    As immortalized (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 04:00:18 PM EST
    By Lou Reed

    And Paul Morrissey

    Little Joe never once gave it away
    Everybody had to pay and pay
    A hustle here and a hustle there
    New York City's the place
    Where they said, "Hey, babe,
    Take a walk on the wild side."
    I said, "Hey, Joe,
    Take a walk on the wild side."


    Parent

    I was going to ask you if ... (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 02:08:39 AM EST
    ... "Little Joe" in Reed's classic was the same Joe of the Warhol movie. Further, was the "Candy" in the same song who "never lost her head, even when she was giving head" actually the Candy Darling you talked about?

    Sweet Jesus, how I miss Lou Reed.

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    Yup (none / 0) (#161)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 08:12:11 AM EST
    Every verse is for a different Warhol character

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    James Rasin (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 08:35:13 AM EST
    Loved the song enough to do a doc.  This story
    uses my favorite photo of her

    And as heart breaking as it is

    this is my second favorite

    The famous death bed photo.  Not only does she manage to look fabulous there is an undefeated look in those eyes is awe inspiring

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    Great Acting (none / 0) (#149)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 04:04:24 PM EST
    In Flesh for Frankenstein and Blood for Dracula., imo..  IOW he was perfect for the films.

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    He WAS perfect (none / 0) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 04:10:45 PM EST
    He wasn't acting

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    Yes (none / 0) (#153)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 04:33:03 PM EST
    And that is the warhol touch or influence. The empire state building was not acting nor was  John Giorno acting in sleep.

    Warhol made the biggest advance in filmmaking in its history, imo.

     

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    Certainly arguable (none / 0) (#154)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 04:44:10 PM EST
    That without Warhol there would be no Soderbergh

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    You know (none / 0) (#151)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 04:28:18 PM EST
    If you are interested in th Joe of that period - and you can take the gayness of it - there is a very interesting docudrama about Bob Mizer the god father of beefcake appropriately titled --

    Beefcake

    in Los Angeles in 1945, hoping to turn his fascination with the male physique into a successful business that used nude and semi-nude photographs to sell the services of models to painters and the like. When the photos themselves proved more lucrative than the non-existent modeling contracts, Mizer launched Physique Pictorial. The magazine ostensibly offered bodybuilding tips and moral guidance to young men the world over, but in reality its clientèle included legions of gay men eager for eye candy. With the help of his mother and business partner, Delilah (Carroll Godsman), Mizer parlayed his magazine, short films, and other work into a palatial residence/studio where young men fresh off the bus from Nowheresville could frolic, crash, and earn a little cash in front of the camera (or on the casting couch). Occasional run-ins with the law and stints in prison couldn't deter Mizer from continuing his photography until his death in the early '90s. His models, contemporaries, and associates included bodybuilding proponent Jack LaLane and future Warhol superstar Joe Dallesandro,

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    Don't expect award winning (none / 0) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 04:31:45 PM EST
    Film making.  It's not horrible but the most ( only? except for the beefcake) interesting bits are the interviews with the now late middle aged models like Joe.

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    Donald, (none / 0) (#157)
    by ZtoA on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 06:48:06 PM EST
    I considered his soup cans to be canned soup for the mind. Campbell soup was the icon of prepared food. We had Wonder bread and cake mixes and TV dinners all prepared and ready for us to eat. Why not art too?

    The icons he created were deeply ironic statements on the human condition - and they were icons, used to contemplate the human experience. He wasn't the kind of artist who would do work just to see if he could reproduce something. I think he intended to comment on our packaged food/impressions/life but even by some remote possibility he did that be shear accident (over and over and over) his use of images reads that way. He also used images already packaged for us in newspapers. Some art can be used by the viewer to escape our ordinary life (our shared human experience) and some, including his, reflects it right back at us.

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    I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. (none / 0) (#159)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 02:22:54 AM EST
    Yet. But I can't reject your explanation out of hand because it does make a good deal of sense to me in the abstract, so please give me time to consider what you said. Maybe I should take you up on an earlier suggestion, and contemplate your thoughts while staring at one of Warhol's paintings at the Honolulu Museum of Art.

    (If ever you come to Honolulu, please take a day to check out both museum locations on Beretania Street near the downtown financial district, and up on Makiki Heights overlooking the city. Most mainland visitors to HMA usually tend to discover it on a rainy day when going to the beach is out of the question, and they're looking for some indoor activity to do. Many of them are very pleasantly surprised at what they see and find HMA to be a real gem.)

    Aloha.

     

    Parent

    Thank you for the info on the museum (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by ZtoA on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 03:05:39 AM EST
    If I ever get to Hawaii (wish wish) I will ask you for more info on art to see. Since I am very acclimated to Portland weather I will most likely go to museums on the 'horribly sunny days' and spend the rainy days on the beach with the sea and fewer people. And I'll ask you about the Hawaiian artists and the history to be found in the arts.

    And thanks for considering Warhol and thus much of modern art in the abstract. I find that contemplating the abstract can lead to a very satisfying emotional experience.

    Parent

    History (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 10:20:27 AM EST
    If you are interested in appreciating Warhol and other artists who you do not understand, it may be worth it to look at him (and others) in a historical context.

    First off, from the late 1800 to the 1950's there was a quest to develop and produce true American Art. Then think of the industrial revolution, and then WW1 and the mechanization of killing. Then DADA, and Duchamp (ready mades in particular).

    Then f you get your head around the Russian avant-garde (Malevich, Khlebnikov, Nikolai Suetin, and then think about MOMA's inception and where the first curator was coming from, namely Alfred Barr, and then consider the post war immigration and infusion of european Jews, (Bauhaus, Frankfurt school). Freud and his Beyond the Pleasure Principal (thanatos the urge to repeat), and how it related to late Picasso sketch books which were essentially flip books.

    Then Clement Greenberg and the project of Abstraction, true American Art, the cold war and US government export of American culture (Art), and the movement rejecting Greenberg namely pop art, with Richard Hamilton (english), Roy Lichtenstein, Mel Ramos, Jasper Johns, Claes Oldenburg... Warhol starts to make sense.

    Warhol moved away from the Modernist ideal of the genius artist working alone, back to the Factory, or workshop (Rembrandt). He crystalized a true American sentiment based on capitalism, consumerism, and product design, and advertising. One can say it was another step in the long evolving project of realism. He loved American consumerism and had gargantuan collections of stuff as well as art. Taking the everyday and looking at its iconic value, both psychological, aesthetic, and luxuriating in its resultant emptiness.

    On the other hand he was obsessed with the idea of death, which ties into Freud's Thanatos theory, (electric chairs, car crashes, dead celebrities). Ironically when he actually faced death from Valerie Solanas attempt on his life, some say he never recovered as an artist. Certainly his work changed.

    He opened the door to post modernism. Jeff Koons, and Damian Hirst, are direct descendants.

    He was a devout Catholic.

    Worth a read is The Philosophy of Andy Warhol. Easy to read, short and hilarious.

    Of course all this is my opinion based on reading, looking at tons of art, and studying over the years, so YMMV.

    Parent

    that's great Squeaky (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by ZtoA on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Donald another way to look at 20thC modern art is simply by seeing deconstruction and isolation in visual images. Those movements were going on in every field.

    Deconstruction in science was the splitting of the atom. Mapping the genome code. Advances in surgery. In social terms it was alienation and the taking apart of culture by wars and mass migration to cities away from family clans. In industry it was deconstructing the assembly process into steps done by different people. done on a massive scale. In all fields things were being picked apart and studied. In the visual arts it was clearly expressed in abstraction. It was truly embraced in the American culture and at times used almost as a cultural weapon (that's a debatable opinion tho). Deconstruction naturally culminates in nihilism (see Paul McCarthy)

    Isolation is very evident in chemistry and medicine where chemical structures were first taken apart and then 'active' ingredients were isolated. Theater grew into performance (tho, of course theater never ended). In art it was the minimalists where even the abstract images was further taken apart - the a single vision was isolated for the power it contained.

    That's my main overview of Modernism. How I see post-modernism is it is a process of reconstruction. Deconstructed parts have been isolated for their powers and are now being put back into a new whole different from the original organic whole. Genes are injected into many plants and soon humans to affect changes. Surgeries in humans insert new mechanical hearts and joints. The internet and social media are connecting isolated individuals into organic networks of sorts.

    The older movements don't end, but new ones are added. The complexities of human experiences grows. Sorry I can't express these ideas very well. I can see it clearly in my mind but words fail me.

    When I was young I got to take a trip to Europe. Was traveling alone and had no $$ for any luxuries, like restaurants. But I did get to museums. Somehow I started at the Louvre with the Greek marbles, then on to Rome with its massive architecture, and renaissance art, Florence, Venice more medieval and renaissance. Last it was London for the Gainsborough and co. centuries. Last was the Tate and the modern rooms. I realized then I was walking thru history and by that time I could read the histories in the images (purely by accident). I saw WWI and II and the loss experienced in deconstruction and the feelings of isolation. I was alone in those galleries (thankfully) and burst into tears.  

    Parent

    Similar Europe experience (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 01:15:29 PM EST
    Fortunately I some times ran into people with money.  That is on fact where I first met Joe MacDonald.  One of our first excursions together he and me and a couple of others spent about 5 hours in one of those downstairs Monet waterlilly rooms in the Louvre because if I remember right it was a Sunday and the entire museum was not open.  
    Oh, and we were on acid.  An experience to never forget.

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    I'm not as adventurous as you (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by ZtoA on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 02:57:14 PM EST
    but I did enjoy a couple of hair raising and fun rides thru Rome on the back of handsome Italian men's motorcycles.

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    One of the most fun things I did in Paris (none / 0) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 03:26:07 PM EST
    Joes idea, he lived there at the time, was one of those tourist boat rides down the river.  He was right you can see some of the most beautiful thongs in Paris from the river.

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    Um (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 03:30:08 PM EST
    THINGS

    Parent
    Which reminds how much I enjoyed the (none / 0) (#166)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 02:26:33 PM EST
    Previous location.of the Waterlilies at MOMA and how much I dislike the current location. That alcove was magical.

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    Yes (none / 0) (#168)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 02:58:51 PM EST
    They are morons, MOMA that is..

    The waterlilies sanctuary was destroyed along with the rest of the museum when they renovated.

    They have one of the great collections and are one of the stupidest museums...  

    But, the public keeps packing it in, so what do I know.

    Parent

    I also wish MOMA had left the sculpture (none / 0) (#169)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 03:16:32 PM EST
    garden "as is."! I just cannot get used to the new orientation.

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    It May Get Worse (none / 0) (#170)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 03:20:39 PM EST
    New Plan

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    That's what I am afraid of. (none / 0) (#171)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 03:22:40 PM EST
    Actually, MOMA is no longer on my must visit list.

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    Interesting (none / 0) (#174)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 08:12:15 AM EST
    Many critics warn that MoMA's second expansion in a decade -- which will create an "art bay" open to West 53rd Street where "spontaneous events" could be accommodated; free admission for the entire first floor; and a new combination gallery-and-performance space -- will move the museum only further in a crowd-pleasing direction, eroding the seriousness and critical distance from popular culture that built its reputation.

    Well as far as I am concerned the

    the seriousness and critical distance from popular culture that built its reputation.
    Has not been in play for over 30 years..

    This move, just may bring MOMA up to speed regarding  contemporary art.  Either that or, what the critics fear, it will turn into a Bandshell type venue to host rock concerts and low end popular culture services.

    We'll see..  

    Robert Storr is right on the money and he worked there:

    "[Lowrey]l gutted the museum in terms of its curatorial traditions and made it a very unpleasant place to work," in part because he "simply does not understand modern and contemporary art and is rivalrous with the people who do."



    Parent
    Crack Is Wack (none / 0) (#123)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 06:01:32 PM EST
    Here is a 1997 article by Holland Cotter: Dancing Again With Keith Haring, Day-Glo Populist. He is one of the few reviewers who I usually agree with and always respect.

    One thing that I remember is that Haring's Crack is Wack Harlem playground mural, visible from the FDR. He got busted by the NYC police while painting it, resulting in a summons and $25 fine for disorderly conduct. It was vandalized and painted over, all white..  

    Shortly afterwards:

    New York City Parks Commissioner Henry Stern came to realize that graffiti spouting positive messages for youth should not be treated as a crime, but rather, a public service.  As such, Stern personally invited Haring back to the scene of the crime to repaint the mural.  Haring arrived with cans of latex house paint and a booming ghettoblaster, filling the block with the sound of the moment.  Closely tied with both graffiti and B-boys, the music and its associate aesthetics formed the holy trinity of Hip-Hop.  

    Parks Commissioner Stern--likely aware of the press coverage garnered by anti-crack related exploits by the fall of 1986--showed up wearing a "Crack is Wack" t-shirt.  What's more, Stern made a public display of asking Haring to sign his shirt.  Riding the cresting wave of Crack Era hysteria, Keith Haring went from public nuisance to local hero in short order.



    Parent
    Squeaky (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:36:52 AM EST
    Ha! about your last line.

    Thats a great approach too, as is getting to know the artist and/or and their subject. The one I mentioned is an emotional approach, sort of like what you said - belief. With any approach I can usually find appreciation. That does not mean I like the work, but I trust appreciation more. I, like most every artist I know, am highly opinionated and I get irritated by art I don't like or get right away. By appreciating it I get an emotional softening and get to move my 'categories' around. Like Blake said "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."

    Parent

    Nice (none / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:20:15 AM EST
    as is getting to know the artist and/or and their subject.

    Sometimes it is best to not know the artist, as I have found out that the opposite happens. Works I have liked and admired have gotten harder to look at because sometimes the artist is a major a$$, and in general not a nice person.

    But yes, for less high stakes artists doing their work, meeting them getting to know them and their subject usually makes me like their work much more than I did before I met them.

    I like the Blake quote. Change and re-examining beliefs is a good thing to keep life interesting, and art making alive. Not the greatest thing for the market, as the market likes brands.

    Parent

    This just gets better and better (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:03:15 AM EST
    Jews in eastern Ukraine city given orders to 'register' with pro-Moscow militia

    It'S All the Rage in Eastern Europe (none / 0) (#98)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:31:27 PM EST
    Hungary also using 1930's Germany as a model.

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    Holy hell (none / 0) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:43:49 PM EST
    What century are we in

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    Off topic (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 01:29:37 PM EST
    I saw the photo of your tree.  I think you have a very mature Redbud.

    The tree is underrated IMO.  Coming in as a noob, the few I have seen I was struck by their beauty and asked about them.  I was told with a wrinkly nose it is a Redbud.  Used to be a very common tree here, and I think that is where the lack of appreciation comes from.

    On the main road to our subdivision the street is lined with ornamental pear, and at least three a year die and must be replaced.  They have very mixed feelings about living here but many are determined that By God they are going to live here.

    An abandoned house though nearby has the most gorgeous Redbud in front, nobody loves on it, and it just thrives and thrives.  When I researched Redbuds I discovered that early settlers made salads out of those blooms.

    And I still don't have a Redbud in my yard.  You really can't find them at garden centers.

    Parent

    Redbuds dot the landscape (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:47:54 PM EST
    everywhere you look here in MO. They are in yards, untended lots and in forested areas. They along with the dogwoods and other flowing trees add dramatic color and make driving in the springtime here all the more enjoyable.

    IMO they are also beautiful in the winter when they are without any foliage. They have very dark (almost black in some light) trunks and limbs. They offer a beautiful contrast against a sunset or a winter twilight sky.

    They seem just made to enhance photographs or paintings in both seasons.    

    Parent

    It's one of my favorite yard trees (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 05:01:35 PM EST
    But the landscaping here is one of th things I like most about the place.  One of the best things about a 100 year old house.

    Parent
    As you can probably tell from my comment, (none / 0) (#129)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:03:21 PM EST
    Redbuds are one of my favorites as well.

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    So that's what they are (none / 0) (#120)
    by sj on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 05:25:49 PM EST
    There are a few of them in the old neighborhood in Baltimore. They looks smashing when juxtaposed with apple and cherry blossoms.

    I wonder if they grow in Colorado.

    Parent

    Yes, there are a few in my neighborhood (none / 0) (#130)
    by christinep on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:13:18 PM EST
    Redbuds are enchantingly beautiful in full bloom.  When we were in married student housing in Bloomington, Indiana, we lived for awhile on Redbud Lane ... and, there were lots & lots of redbuds.

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    They really are lovely (none / 0) (#131)
    by sj on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 10:42:43 PM EST
    I need to replace a tree. I need shade, but a redbud...

    Maybe I can have both.

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    Driving around today (none / 0) (#156)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 05:36:29 PM EST
    I noticed that my little town is full of redbuds.  Nearly every yard.  Odd that I never really noticed that until we discussed it.  But the spring here is a blossom orgy.

    Parent
    Now that you mention it (none / 0) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 02:09:34 PM EST
    I may have it called that

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 02:12:47 PM EST
    pretty sure that's what it is

    Parent
    Adding to the art discussion (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 10:52:12 AM EST
    An artist makes some art about a "fellow" artist.

    Art is an Art

    That Seems Stupid To Me (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 10:58:41 AM EST
    We all know about Bush the war criminal...  I think that the onion piece that Z to A posted is way better..  it is actually funny and on the mark.

    Parent
    Jeff Koons is 500 times the artist (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:10:39 AM EST
    That Bush can ever be because your desire to kill yourself while observing Balloon Dog is fleeting and cured with a latte :)

    Parent
    And I think you are just being (none / 0) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:07:46 AM EST
    Argumentative today.  Fiore did a work of art about the Bush Legacy.  Legacy squeak, the things that hang around for years after good and bad deeds are done.  I am a little offended considering we still have friends trying to suicide right now thanks to Bush.  There is a horrible legacy this man has left many of us with while he gives himself art showings.  

    It is possible for both artistic expressions to merit consideration :)

    Parent

    Not Really (none / 0) (#96)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:27:43 PM EST
    I do not find the Fiore cartoon compelling, funny, or inventive. We all know that Bush is a war criminal. On the other hand the onion piece made me laugh, and think of the paintings that Fiore spelled out. His piece was too obvious for me, left nothing for the imagination.

    Parent
    Did Pres. Obama know the VIP was going to (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by oculus on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:31:39 AM EST
    endorse same sex marriage?  No.

    NYT

    Good for Joe Biden ... (none / 0) (#100)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 01:29:29 PM EST
    ... for forcing the issue and thus nudging the president to take a definitive stand. As Obama subsequently discovered, it was both the right thing to do and good politics.

    The GOP loves to ridicule Biden for a few admittedly dumb things he's said and done over the course of his long career, which tends to blind its members to the fact that the man is hardly anybody's fool, but rather a pretty savvy veteran politician with generally sound instincts.

    That's why Republicans got totally blindsided during the 2012 presidential campaign when Biden absolutely owned and schooled their darling wunderkind Paul Ryan in the vice presidential debate, especially after Obama whiffed the first presidential debate one week earlier.

    The vice president's performance that night was sweet, like watching a veteran reliever calmly walk out of the bullpen and onto the mound right after a teammate made a bad play to allow a runner into scoring position with no one out, and then proceed to strike out the heart of the batting order as players in the opposing dugout watch dumbfounded with mouths agape.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    That VP (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 01:46:50 PM EST
    debate certainly had them in a major meltdown though the funniest thing that was said all year to me was when Bill Clinton did the nominating speech for Obama and talked about Mitt. He said something to the extent that Moderate Mitt had showed up and wanted to know where he had been hiding all that time. That line STILL makes me laugh.

    Parent
    I loved Bill Clinton's other line in that same ... (none / 0) (#110)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 02:28:26 PM EST
    ... speech, about how it takes a lot of brass to publicly accuse someone else of doing exactly what you're clearly doing yourself.

    Parent
    Atten: Jeralyn - El Capo synopsis page (none / 0) (#1)
    by DFLer on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 06:33:29 PM EST
    I'm reposting here so you don't have to slog thru the last thread. Hope it helps.

    Have you seen this?
    I found this site: link

    The synopsis are in Spanish text, but one can use a translator thang, heh?

    Just watched (none / 0) (#2)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 06:56:31 PM EST
    the first episode of the television version of "Fargo".

    What is a little disconcerting is that Martin Freeman is doing an impression of William B. Macy's signature portrayal of Jerry Lundegard in the original film.

    He's very good at it. One would never know that he is an English actor. His American accent is flawless. And he has Macy's mannerisms down pat.

    But I would have preferred that he come up with something more personal and original.

    Maybe it is the director's doing.

    It's kind of hard to figure where this can go from here. They've knocked off three people so far... and it's just episode one.

    I felt that way a little bit at the very start (none / 0) (#3)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:03:05 PM EST
    start, but I thought by midway of the episode it was his own. Maybe just me sinking into it and not seeing Macy in my head.

    Parent
    The scene with Thornton in the hospital (none / 0) (#5)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:07:28 PM EST
    was what turned it for me. freeman has a particular way of looking at and listening to people that makes an impression on me. I do t find it Macy-like.

    Parent
    I'll (none / 0) (#20)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:01:15 PM EST
    give him a chance.

    I'll tune in next week.

    Frankly, at this moment I don't even remember Thornton being in the hospital...

    Unless you mean the scene at the beginning when they're both waiting on the bench...with Freeman talking about being bullied...

    During that scene, I really thought of Macy.
    That scene seemed to me to be Freeman being Macy meeting Buscemi.

    But I'll tune in next week with an open mind.

    Parent

    You may have also (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:04:42 PM EST
    Noticed they were using variations of the same theme music.  You do not make a tv series of a movie with the cult status of Fargo and ignore the film.

    Parent
    Jeez Louise... (none / 0) (#26)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:12:23 PM EST
    I'm not talking about ignoring the original film.
    I know they are evoking it - the snow, the costumes, the word, "sweet", the music....

    I just said that Freeman's portrayal was, imo, like an impressionist doing Macy.

    Thornton is not doing Buscemi.

    Nobody is doing Frances McDormand.

    But hey. If you think Freeman's doing his own thing, so be it.

    Enjoy.


    Parent

    LOL, that is the scene I meant (none / 0) (#37)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:15:04 PM EST
    Oh well, different strokes. My main Macy association hess days is with Shameless, so I probably don't have a clear memory of his Fargo character

    Parent
    "Shameless" (none / 0) (#56)
    by lentinel on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:14:34 AM EST
    is his Fargo character on steroids.

    I like it.

    I think it is his part of a lifetime.

    Parent

    On that we agree. (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:50:34 AM EST
    I loved his work this season especially.

    Parent
    It's really more (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:24:56 PM EST
    That both are doing a guy from Minnesota.  Do you know any?

    Parent
    Being a region more than a state (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:25:27 PM EST


    Parent
    No. (none / 0) (#18)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:56:22 PM EST
    It's not just a regional accent.

    He's copying Macy. His speech pattern. His hesitations. The way he turns his head.

    Parent

    Whatever (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:59:15 PM EST
    The show was always meant to be an homage  to the film in some ways.  The Cohen brothers are running the show.  I'm sure he is talking exactly the way they told him to talk.

    Parent
    Coen bros. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:13:37 PM EST


    Parent
    And I can't even (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:16:39 PM EST
    Blame the iPad

    Parent
    Like (none / 0) (#23)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:06:27 PM EST
    I said, maybe it's the director's - or the Coen brothers' doing.

    I don't care whose doing it is.

    I would prefer he come up with an original take.

    Thornton isn't doing Buscemi.

    Parent

    NYTimes (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 08:08:54 PM EST
    "Original adaptation," like "instant classic" and "jumbo shrimp," is an oxymoron that makes sense.

    That's what FX is calling "Fargo," a series beginning on Tuesday that has the same title as a 1996 Coen brothers movie and is more of a riff than a rip-off. Ethan and Joel Coen are among the executive producers, so they obviously sanctioned the venture. The writer, Noah Hawley, invented new characters immersed in a different array of murders without losing what was so distinctive about that droll, enigmatic film in the first place.
    --
    "Fargo" isn't the movie; it's a television adaptation that lives up to the spirit of the original by straying.

    Parent

    To me he was being the way he is in his (none / 0) (#42)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:34:10 PM EST
    own other roles. Maybe he is always copying Macy, just with an English accent.

    Parent
    I did think all of the accents fluctuated (none / 0) (#43)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:35:50 PM EST
    in intensity throughout. I hope they land on less intense. Playing the accent for laughs worked in the movie, but to me it gets old quick.

    Parent
    It seemed to me that like the movie (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:41:49 PM EST
    The most extreme accents were the bit parts.  I especially thought the scene when the guy was stabbed in the head was very reminiscent of the Buscemi sex scene in the movie.  Particularly the accent of the girl.

    Parent
    Gotta say (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:48:29 PM EST
    The very last shot with Colin Hanks and Billy Bob in the car was amazing.  It was so understated.  Perfectly acted perfectly timed and cut and absolutely chilling.
    You just knew in your bones, as Hanks character did, this is a very very bad and dangerous man.  Best to just walk away.

    Parent
    Is there a woodchipper involved? (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 10:40:17 PM EST


    Parent
    It's funny how much that scene effected (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 08:14:23 AM EST
    People.  I have heard people say they won't see the movie because of just hearing about that scene.  And others say they won't see Coen movies because of it.  
    I really don't get it.  Maybe I have seen to many slasher movies or just to much movie violence in general but I just don't get it? Is it the blood?  The foot? What?


    Parent
    It was btilliant. (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:53:21 AM EST


    Parent
    I so love that you spelled that wrong (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:59:40 AM EST


    Parent
    But to answer your question (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 08:30:54 AM EST
    No wood chipper.
    However
    I would say there was more graphic violence in  that episode than the whole movie.  Any one disagree?  Like I said, not the best memory for over the top violence.

    I am reminded of a great line from a Simpsons episode.    Bart and Lisa are watching a movie and Lisa is covering her eyes and Bart says "come on, if you don't watch you'll never become desensitized to it".

    Parent

    Not yet anyway! (none / 0) (#95)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:17:26 PM EST
    I think Lester was wishing he had one handy though.

    Yeah, that was a lot of gore for one episode. I hope most of the rest is the sleuthing. I like that actress a lot, and the character's dad - Keith Carradine! - that was a nice surprise.

    Parent

    And Bob Odenkirk (none / 0) (#97)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 12:29:33 PM EST
    The sleazy lawyer from Breaking Bad

    Parent
    You know, Odenkirk's character ... (none / 0) (#108)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 02:20:21 PM EST
    ... was the one guy in "Breaking Bad" I didn't care for in the least. So of course, it only naturally follows that they would develop an entire new spinoff series around his adventures.

    Parent
    Ann (none / 0) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:09:35 PM EST
    I loved Saul.  But he seems even more minor here.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:12:50 PM EST
    Didn't mean to call you Ann

    That was supposed to be Ahhhhhhh

    Stupid iPad

    Someplace I left a comment about the scene at the end with BillyBob in the car.   Perfect example of his controlled malevolence

    Parent

    I love the way in which ... (none / 0) (#104)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 02:09:26 PM EST
    ... Billy Bob Thornton simply inhabits his role of the depraved and indifferent sociopath Lorne Malvo, keeping a firm grip on the character's reins and not allowing him to go over the top. Bad haircut aside, Malvo has a rather matter-of-fact way of appearing perfectly reasonable, while still leaving a malevolent trail of mayhem in his wake.

    Like I said in an earlier thread, Thorton has serious potential to create one of television's most memorable villains. In that respect, Malvo reminds me a lot of Alan Arkin's brilliant and Oscar-nominated portrayal of the psychotic Harry Roat, Jr., who nonchalantly manipulated his underlings before getting rid of them, and then proceeded to calmly terrorize a blind Audrey Hepburn into giving him that heroin-filled child's doll in the 1967 classic thriller "Wait Until Dark."

    A lesser actor would have probably turned Lorne

    Parent

    ... (cont'd) into a cartoon character. (none / 0) (#109)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 02:23:30 PM EST
    I don't know how I managed to delete the last four words of my comment.

    Parent
    Will Ghost live to see the next episode (none / 0) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:06:46 PM EST
    Of GoT?  He is fascinated by my hydroponic cloners and growers.  He destroyed all the plants in one trying to figure it out.  The only thing you hear when they kick on is trickling water but the minute they kick on he is disturbed from sleep, petting, everything, and if he can get to it when you aren't watching he pulls all the baskets out and breaks the plants.

    Ha! You just never know what they are going (none / 0) (#6)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:14:59 PM EST
    to fixate on. Evil plants! Do you have a baby gate you can use to bar the area until maybe he grows out of it?

    Parent
    I'm going to set them (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:23:05 AM EST
    Up in the spare room and keep the door closed.  He knows it makes me sad, the look on his face is so torn when they turn on.  And he has become my husbands dog now.  I feed him, I wash him, I fold his underwear, and he loves my husband...sigh

    Parent
    You dress your dog in men's underwear? (none / 0) (#107)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 02:16:25 PM EST
    How totally Pride Parade of you! You really need to be living in San Francisco or Venice Beach, and not stuck in the South, where such camp sensibility is generally unappreciated by the local inhabitants.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Must make a hypersonic sound... (none / 0) (#7)
    by unitron on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:18:14 PM EST
    ...that you can't hear that drives him nuts.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:28:05 AM EST


    Parent
    Remind me to (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:27:08 PM EST
    Tell you about the time my ghost chewed up the grandfather clock

    Parent
    Yes, nothing priceless destroyed (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 04:31:18 AM EST
    Just me walking into the room and asking Ghost "Really?"

    Parent
    Sort of hoping that Clinton's grandmotherhood... (none / 0) (#8)
    by unitron on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:20:45 PM EST
    ...would occur closer to 2016 to keep her out so I could hear the Republicans attack somebody new for a change.

    Given the GOP's track record of late, ... (none / 0) (#102)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 01:34:48 PM EST
    ... it wouldn't surprise me in 2016 if Republicans started claiming that Obama, Hillary and Bill had Chelsea furtively smuggled away to Kenya in order to give birth there.

    Parent
    I wouldn't be surprised... (none / 0) (#132)
    by unitron on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 10:59:54 PM EST
    ...if they started spreading a rumor that the actual father was a black man from Kenya and there was a baby swap done during the delivery (while the Secret Service assisted in the deception) so that it looks like she had an all-white baby.

    Parent
    This (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:39:04 PM EST
    John Roberts and the Color of Money is a fascinating article about how the top political donors are overwhelming white and male.

    An interesting thing that I got out of the article is how these people never meet middle class or lower class Americans even white ones much less minority citizens of America.

    Though the article kind of has a depressing tone something I got out of it was that if they reside in such a bubble they are much more likely to send big money to loser candidates. The perfect example of this is Sheldon Addleson. He thought Newt Gingrich was a good candidate when the majority of Americans laughed at him. These people are going to conintually be more out of touch it would seem as time goes by.

    When trunks bloom (none / 0) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 08:38:28 AM EST
    do they become Bloomers?

    Is that (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 08:42:40 AM EST
    at your house?

    Parent
    It is (none / 0) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 08:52:14 AM EST
    Not sure what kind of tree it is but it's always beautiful in the spring

    Parent
    On another subject (none / 0) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 08:58:25 AM EST
    Just heard some heads say Paul Broun (sp?) is very likely to win the primary which would make Nunn very likely to win in Nov.


    Parent
    here (none / 0) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:18:31 AM EST
    is the polling: GA GOP Senate Race

    Right now it's showing that it's likely going to a runoff. I don't know where they are getting that Broun is likely to win but in all honesty all of them have become Broun clones except for Perdue.

    Parent

    The general consensus (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:36:15 AM EST
    Seemed to be it was between Perdue and Broun and Broun had most of the TP support.

    Parent
    Well, I'm pretty sure (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:52:35 AM EST
    that Broun would win a run off with Perdue but it's kind of a question now as to who exactly is going to the runoff.

    Parent
    Is it a variety of crepe myrtle? (none / 0) (#69)
    by nycstray on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:06:25 AM EST


    Parent
    Dunno (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 09:12:48 AM EST
    When it's fully in bloom I will post a pic and maybe you can tell me

    Parent
    I'm under the impression (none / 0) (#93)
    by CoralGables on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 11:51:05 AM EST
    that all crepe myrtles have peeling bark which that tree doesn't appear to have.

    Parent
    Not business as usual (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 06:43:33 PM EST
    "Americans showed up with guns and said, 'No, you're not," before confronting the armed BLM agents, Jones said in a telephone interview. "And they said, 'Shoot us.' And they did not. That's epic. And it's going to happen more."

    Militia experts interviewed by Reuters said they could not think of another example in recent decades where different militia groups had banded together to offer armed resistance to thwart a law enforcement operation.

    This is serious.  This is dangerous.  This will not end well.

    No (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 07:58:58 PM EST
    it's going to be ugly and conservatives are not going to be happy until they've killed somebody that works for the government.

    Parent
    It looks (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 07:59:40 PM EST
    like home grown terrorism is now growing larger and uglier. Thank you conservative talk radio---not.

    Parent
    Thursday Night Open Thread | 174 comments (174 topical)

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