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Wednesday Open Thread

It's been days since our last open thread. I've been focused on ISIS and Iraq, and readers seem focused on Ferguson. Here's some space to talk about other things, all topics welcome.

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    Howard Dean Yesterday (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 07:33:55 AM EST
    "I am a huge Hillary Clinton fan...If she is president, which I hope she is, I think she is going to be a terrific president."

    - Howard Dean (8/19/14)

    A co-dependent corporate Dem? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:31:32 AM EST
    That someone with half a brain could propose the idea that another one of these corrupt, imagination-bereft morons is going to make a positive difference is depressing.

    Bill Clinton, whom I used to love and now feel absolutely nothing for, would be LOST in today's political world.

    Hillary, who is essentially a political twin of her husband, will be no different.

    Until a bold and fearless ARTIST leads this nation, we're doomed.

    Peace, y'all.

    Parent

    Too bad Leroy Nieman has passed, huh? (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 05:08:25 PM EST
    We've never had a bold and fearless artist in political leadership, because bold and fearless artists tend to eschew leadership roles.

    To be sure, artists have played pivotal roles in political history, by serving as mirrors and windows to society's own collective conscience. Who can view Pablo Picasso's "Guernica" or read Emile Zola's "J'Acusse," and not be moved by their passionate outrage at the rank injustices to which they bore witness in their day? But generally, artists are also non-conformist by nature, and such individuals tend to be remarkably tone-deaf when they enter the political arena.

    As an example, the internationally acclaimed Peruvian author Mario Vargas Llosa entered his country's 1990 presidential election as the clear frontrunner, only to alienate and frighten many voters with his repeated calls for economic austerity and the dissemination of private property. Not surprisingly, he ultimately lost to a then-unknown agricultural engineer, Alberto Fujimori.

    Most historians past and present tend to regard Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt as our two greatest presidents. The former was a self-made and successful corporate attorney who rose from humble beginnings to represent the railroads, and he was the richest man in Illinois when he was elected president in 1860. The latter was a pampered child of a wealthy but aging businessman and a woman 26 years his junior, who attended the finest schools and then entered politics as a profession, dutifully ascending the ranks of the Democratic Party over three decades to attain the pinnacle of power in 1932.

    Aside from their mutual shrewd mastery of the politics of their times, the two defining personal traits Lincoln and FDR shared were a highly attuned sense of self-assurance and purpose, and a demonstrable empathy for those less fortunate amongst us. In large part, that was what led them to ultimately successful presidencies, and to their subsequent general high regard by both historians and the American people. And those two traits are what I look for in a political leader.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:40:37 AM EST
    They should've found a way to keep Hitler in Art School..

    William Blake's "Two-horned Cloven Reason" is what our politicians -- and District Attorneys and the police and fundamentalist preachers and corporate marketers -- thrive on: exploiting the masses tendency to want to simplify complexity and see things purely in Black-and-White, Good vs Evil terms. That psychological ruse, which refuses to acknowledge irony and ambiguity and keeps the populace chronically dumbed-down and sitting ducks for the marketers, is why creative people, who have a high tolerance for ambiguity and Mystery, traditionally run from American politics the way people turn away from the stench of an abandoned slaughter house.  

    Parent

    Hitler applied to art school in Vienna (none / 0) (#195)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:11:48 PM EST
    but was rejected.

    Parent
    Okay (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:18:37 PM EST
    he never went to Art School to begin with.

    What does the state recommend as a penalty for my egregious error?  

    Parent

    Considering some (none / 0) (#198)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:23:33 PM EST
    Of the horrendous crap he considered art it's probably just as well.

    Parent
    The author of a book I just finished opined (none / 0) (#200)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:26:02 PM EST
    the reason Hitler invaded Austria so early was because the Vienna academy rejected him. Can't say that argument persuaded me.

    Parent
    Howard Dean circa 2003 called... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:43:10 AM EST
    and asked "wtf?".

    Bold, fearless...and may I add suicidal?  What we need would never be allowed to happen D...look at the leaders of the recent past with a flair for art and imagination...they all got shot, imprisoned, and/or otherwise neutered.

    Parent

    Something to lighten the mood (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:14:50 AM EST
    Awsum (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:16:47 AM EST
    I've always liked this NFL ref (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:58:28 AM EST
    Mike Carey.  He was one of the best refs in the league.  Great to see this piece about him and how he refused to officiate Washington football games for 8 years because of the name "Redskins".

    Insane (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:09:07 AM EST
    A motorcycle doing about 50, hits a car changing lanes, and the driver lands on the roof.

    I would say it's staged, but there are too many cars and looks like they are on a bridge.

    LINK

    It would be nice (none / 0) (#62)
    by sj on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:00:38 PM EST
    if that logo/banner didn't cover a quarter of the video. That makes me crazy in the morning, too. My local channel has quite a decent and frequent traffic report. But, while they frequently talk about my particular commute, the station logo is always plastered right over that highway when they display the traffic map.

    Still, that's better than anything I get from the 10 seconds every 15 minutes that the Big Three morning shows provide.

    Parent

    Amazing (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 05:32:07 PM EST
    If real that is one lucky biker

    Parent
    My Last Day... (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:01:32 PM EST
    ...and then it's off to Yellowstone for a 12 day RV tour with 6 friends.  

    So yesterday when I was driving to work, there was couple cops in off road vehicles on the bridge by my place.  I don't think anything of it.

    When I drive home, the bridge is filled with odd cops vehicle, state police in camouflaged Tahoes, with cops everywhere.  Every news station with vans and 30 foot antennas.  I was like damn, someone get killed in the nature reserve.

    Got home, and holly cr@p, someone was growing weed, 9000 lbs.  They had an irrigation systems and lived there.  The cop was on the news stating that even after they found it, they didn't see the living area for some time because it's so thick.

    I know that reserve inside and out and even mentioned once to my gf that it was the perfect spot for growing weed.  The vegetation in parts is so thick that you can see jack, but it's littered with brush areas with long grass that could be cleared easily. Complete with a meandering creek for irrigation in the hot Texas summer.  

    I have maps of the reserve and when they showed it on TV, I realized that about once every other week I was w/i maybe 100ft of 9000 of weed.  It's a park of sorts, with loads of trails, but not many people use them.  My dog loves it and it's one of the few places I can take her without a leash and not worry about running into people.

    I live maybe 3 blocks from the field, if that.

    Have fun. (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 05:18:06 PM EST
    We went to Yellowstone and nearby Grand Tetons Nat'l Park in July 2004. It's a beautiful and mystic place.

    Parent
    Super jealous (none / 0) (#103)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:31:54 PM EST
    Love love love it. Have a great time!

    Parent
    I'm more jealous of his (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:33:38 PM EST
    Proximity to 9000 lbs of weed.

    Parent
    Hahaha...different strokes! (none / 0) (#107)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:43:38 PM EST
    I can relate... (none / 0) (#143)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:54:54 AM EST
    to that "right under my nose" feeling....a few years back now a married couple that lived right up the block got busted for running an escort service.  Cops found 250 grand buried in their backyard...which probably means a half a mil at least, right under our noses. If we only knew!

    Enjoy your trip bro!

    Parent

    Wanted to respond to this (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:07:54 PM EST

    I'd like to get some feedback (none / 0) (#25)
    by NYShooter on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:00:42 AM EST

    From the TL Community about the broader issue of Islam itself. For as long as I can remember, as a true-blue 60's Liberal, I bought into the conventional wisdom: Islam is one of the world's great religions; it, generally, promotes peace and brotherhood; it's the media that sensationalizes the barbaric acts of a tiny minority, Muslims shouldn't be broad brushed by some small percentage of anti-social zealots, and, so on.

    (J wanted to move it to the open.  I did not want to take the whole comment.  It's long.  But you should read it to understand mine)

    I consider myself lucky to have know several people of that faith.  They, all of them, were some of the nicest most humane people I have ever known.  This plus the fact of my own very unpleasant experiences with fundamentalist christianity makes me very uncomfortable with painting all Islam with the same brush.  
    I am not a religious person.  So it is easy for me to see one religion very much as another.   And I do.   Let's be honest, there is no less barbarism in the Bible than the Koran.
    The president said something today we, IMO, all need to remember.  ISIS/ISIL represents no religion.  

    The thing (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:18:05 PM EST
    I find interesting is that so many people are unwilling to speak up about fundamentalism whatever kind it is. We have posters here who make excuses for the radical fundamentalists who have taken over the GOP. Maybe they are just as afraid to say anything about the Christian ones as the ones in the middle east are about fundamentalist Islam. The only conclusion I can come to is that the fundamentalists have terrorized both into silence.

    Parent
    Trust me when I tell you (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:31:45 PM EST
    I personally know fundamentalist Christians who would be happy to, for example, stone homosexuals to death.

    And if the lived in a country that allowed it they would.

    Parent

    Really? (1.50 / 2) (#114)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:14:33 PM EST
    Why can't we just say the obvious?  Islam has a problem and no other religion has anything approaching it.

    How many Christians have beheaded someone on social media?

    How many Christians have worn suicide vests and blown themselves up?

    How many Christians believe if they kill people who don't believe what they do that they'll go to heaven?

    Even if there are a few that are by outnumbered by such an astronomical amount it's not even with noting.

    I mean seriously, enough already.   I understand that many here are not religious but this constant need to compare Militant Islam it to some cartoonish caricature of Christianity is disturbing to me.   Not just because I'm a Christian but it seems to me a way to avoid reality.

    Militant Islam is an ideology that must  be combated by all means.  Violently when appropriate and at least in the arena of ideas.   I have Muslim friends and I'm not the least bit concerned about them.  What I'm concerned about is the large percentage of Muslims in the Middle East who want to kill me.

    Moral equivalency accomplishes nothing.   Save the crazy Christians for later if you think they're a problem because today the real problem is young Muslim men who will kill you on YouTube if you don't join their faith.

    Obama can blather on about the real meaning of Islam all he wants.  While he does that thousands of Muslim men are heading to Syria and Iraq intent on Jihad.   Until the leaders of Islam in the Middle East stop turning a blind eye and even supporting it financially it's not going to stop.   What's most alarming is men from Western countries are joining the cause in the name of Allah.

    None of them a I can assure you are doing so after saying the Rosary.

    Parent

    Slept Through (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:26:53 PM EST
    Guess you were snoozing through the conflict between England and Ireland... and the conflict in Bosnia Serbia? Rwanda genocide?

    After World War II, a Hutu emancipation movement began to grow in Rwanda,[32] fuelled by increasing resentment of the inter-war social reforms, and also an increasing sympathy for the Hutu within the Catholic Church.[33] Catholic missionaries increasingly viewed themselves as responsible for empowering the underprivileged Hutu rather than the Tutsi elite, leading rapidly to the formation of a sizeable Hutu clergy and educated elite that provided a new counterbalance to the established Tutsi political order.[33] The monarchy and prominent Tutsi sensed the growing influence of the Hutu and began to agitate for immediate independence on their own  


    Parent
    I wasn't going to bring up (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:34:08 PM EST
    The oceans of blood shed by the Christian church because,  well, they are not doing it currently,

    Parent
    Today (none / 0) (#131)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:12:51 AM EST
    No such bloodshed today but hide behind history if you want.

    Name a Christian group like ISIL today.  Name me a Christian country run as a theocracy that stamps out religious minorities.

    You can't because they exist.

    There is no current parallel that exists in the world to what is happening in Islam.

    Parent

    Ignoring the history of (5.00 / 3) (#187)
    by KeysDan on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:17:59 AM EST
    religions freights an understanding of present day religious extremists.  The fanaticism of the past aspired to hegemony of a specific religion and its use for control and power. Having achieved that goal, the focus turned to curators and defenders of that faith.   So, it is not a matter of "hiding behind history," but, rather,  taking into account the militancy capabilities of believers, from aggressive evangelicals imposing laws to enforce religious beliefs to genocidal justifications for religious purity.  

    The violent and deadly conflicts can occur among and between  beliefs, such as between Christians-- Protestants and Catholics (papal supremacy) or Muslims-- Sunni and Shia (leadership succession after Prophet Muhammad, elected from followers (Sunni) or passage/continuation from the Prophet's son-in-law. (Shia).  

    Parent

    This base-pleasing Christian-Libertarian hybrid (5.00 / 3) (#188)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:18:37 AM EST
    is quite a miraculous feat of spiritual-intellectual smoke-and-mirrors. I love it. Only in America.

    First, utterly dispense with any organized attempt to implement the Social Gospel; then, degrade the Creation to the twin categories of private property and un-liquidated capital; then attempt to promulgate the la-la land fantasy that we all live on the 1820s prairie and that it is even possible for everyone to just "mind their own business" (which is of course code for the non-interference in markets message of the Apostles Ayn and Milton), Then retain the most threadbare lineaments of Christianity by promoting a "faith, not works" theology with an emphasis on the inevitable entropic destruction of the planet as being part of the All Mighty's long-term plan, the highlight of which will be the return of that first and most-spiritual venture capitalist Jesus Christ, who will whisk his chosen away to the great celestial tax shelter
    in the sky..

    Why wouldn't any Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, et al with a sincere spiritual longing run to embrace a revelation like that?

    When will conservatives catch a clue? McWorld won't fly as an appealing substitute for Jihad. Even if it does smell just slightly better.

     

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#132)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:20:09 AM EST
    Is there a Christian movement to conquer the world?

    What do Christians do when they spread the gospel?  Oh yeah they set up orphanages, hospitals and food shelters.

    It's just intellectually dishonest to compare the current state of Islam to anything.

    Yes Christians have a checkered past.  The Chirch has a great many things to apologize for but today, in the hear and now it's the least of our worries.  

    Call Militant Islam what it is.  A disease of ideology that would trample our way of life if given a chance.

    The Western world needs to approach this ideology the same way we did fascism or communism.   This is a battle of ideas and not admitting so and quoting historical similarities means you just look the other way and deny reality.

    Parent

    A Christian Movement? (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:38:10 AM EST
    Well you are making headway here Slado, by pointing out that A Christian Movement does not represent Christians, but could be looked at as an outlier.

    And the answer is yes, there are Christian groups that are violent, and many Christian groups want to spread the word to the entire world (evangelicals).

    But most Christians want to practice their religion and get on with their life, as do the vast vast majority of Muslims.

    To argue that Extremists are representative of any group that they claim to represent is nonsense, and suggests a bias on your part because it is unreasonable.

    Parent

    So what should I call them? (none / 0) (#141)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:47:33 AM EST
    I specifically characterize it as Militant Islam.   Point being that there is an ideology rising out of the religion that is a problem.  

    And the problem is too many people are practicing it.

    By sheer numbers you can not equate this issue to any other religion.  The reality is in the here and now, today this way of thinking has taken root in the Muslim world and needs to be stamped out.

    Pretending otherwise is just foolish.   Call it whatever you want but acknowledging the problem is not Islamaphobia.   We're not talking about all Muslims.  We're talking about certain ones.

    Bill Maher

    All religion is not the same.  It's time to stop using tolerance as an excuse to avoid the truth.

    In order to make your argument you have to exaggerate the threat of other religions to equate it to Militant Islam.

    I simply don't understand why.

    Parent

    Stereotyping (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:01:25 AM EST
    Painting with a broad brush is essentially stereotyping. To lose ones ability to discriminate leads to discrimination.

    The world is a big place, it extends far beyond your couch and Red State, Breitbart et al. who are fanning the flames of bigotry.

    Parent

    I'm just curious, Slado (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:50:28 AM EST
    what aspect of the Libertarian Tradition is it that seems to resonate strongly with certain Christians?

    The spiritual renunciation involved in devoting a life to the accumulation of capital?

    As an instrument of God's Wrath, who obviously wants poor children to suffer for their parents lazy, sinful lives?

    Parent

    I have no problem saying (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:32:06 PM EST
    Islam has a problem no other religion CURRENTLY has.  What I said was this

    This plus the fact of my own very unpleasant experiences with fundamentalist christianity makes me very uncomfortable with painting all Islam with the same brush.  

    That is not moral equivalency.  It was in response to a comment about Islam.  

    For the record I find your comment rather clueless about the virulency of fundamentalism.  

    Parent

    Sorry Capt (none / 0) (#176)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:41:37 AM EST
    I can't help you.

    I just wish, if you don't want to say that radical Islam is a problem, you would stop attacking Christianity every time someone else brings up the problems of radical Islam.

    Parent

    Sadly (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:57:51 AM EST
    And I sincerely mean that, J's rules of engagement prohibit me from saying anything I have to say to you.
    Perhaps I will someday dive into your ridiculous website just for the purpose of doing that.  Until you have a chance to delete it like you did the one comment I could find on there.

    Parent
    Guess PPJ's Truism Says It All (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:03:11 AM EST
    You are what you practice.

    Hypocrisy appears to be top of the list.

    Parent

    I delete all comments (none / 0) (#202)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:43:40 PM EST
    that break the rules.

    Trying being nice and you can post any opinion you like.

    Parent

    Jim, you truly are a thing of beauty (5.00 / 3) (#189)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:24:26 AM EST
    you really are.

    Let me get this straight: when the nations that enjoyed hundreds of years of Christian Tradition did something horrendous, it was because they were "secular".

    On the other hand, we're better than the Islamists because of our secular-liberal-non-theocratic traditions..

    And meanwhile, you still want to bomb women and children back to the Stone Age. You secular-socialist you.  

    Parent

    Well, it was Obama who (none / 0) (#203)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:46:24 PM EST
    said we aren't a Christian nation.

    And then we have that old "separation" thing.

    We are better than the radical Islamists because of what we are currently doing.

    Try to focus on that.

    And quit worrying about the Crusades.

    Parent

    FYI, Serbian Orthodox Christians ... (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:47:44 AM EST
    Slado: "I mean seriously, enough already. I understand that many here are not religious but this constant need to compare Militant Islam it to some cartoonish caricature of Christianity is disturbing to me. Not just because I'm a Christian but it seems to me a way to avoid reality."

    ... slaughtered more than 8,000 Muslim men and boys in the Bosnian town of Srebrenica on July 11, 1995.

    The International Court of Justice determined that massacre constituted genocide, and former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadžić is currently on trial in The Hague for that and other war crimes. A verdict is not expected before early next year.

    Further, Catholic Croats slaughtered every single one of the 510 Muslim residents of the Bosnian village of Donji Ahmići on April 16, 1993. The men and boys were lined up and executed, and the women, elderly and remaining children were rounded up, locked in a few houses and burned alive. Dario Dario Kordić, political leader of Croats in Central Bosnia, was sentenced to 25 years in prison for his central role in orchestrating the atrocity.

    Please don't be so cavalier about accusing others of avoiding reality, because what you're insinuating is at once ignorant, bigoted and offensive. The war crimes in Donji Ahmići and Srebrenica were very real events, and the Christians who committed them were hardly cartoonish caricatures.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald, two points (none / 0) (#145)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:56:37 AM EST
    First, I don't remember the Croats screaming "God is great!" In fact, I don't remember any Christian group condoning them or any Croatian group claiming they were doing this in the name of Jesus.

    They were no more Christian than the Nazis were.

    Secondly, other countries went in and stopped the killing and punished the killers. I could say that these countries were Christian but the fact is that they were secular.

    Finally, the Serbs and Croatians were fighting among themselves. The Muslims sided with the Serbs.

    SARAJEVO, Yugoslavia -- Leaders of Yugoslavia's large Muslim community have made a dramatic shift in their policy, suddenly distancing themselves from Croatia's President Franjo Tudjman and offering what they said was a "historic agreement" to their traditional enemy -- the Serbs.

    Both sides expect a formal agreement to be signed soon.

    The preliminary agreement raises the possibility of heavily armed Muslim militias siding with Serbia in Yugoslavia's simmering civil conflict.

    The offer was made last week at a meeting between Muslim and Serb politicians in the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Officials from the republic then flew to Belgrade to propose the plan personally to Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic.

    Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia last month. That triggered bloody clashes between militants of Croatia's 600,000-strong Serbian minority, mostly Christian Orthodox, and the republic's predominantly Roman Catholic Croatian population.

    Link

    None of this excuses what happened but this wasn't a war of Christians versus Muslims.

    Parent

    Absolute poppycock. (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:15:46 PM EST
    The war in Bosnia was both a religious war and an ethnic war. The Muslims suffered grievously at the hand of both Serbs and Croats, to the point where even Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin cried out to the West to intervene on their behalf and halt the ethnic cleansing.

    Parent
    If you want to claim (none / 0) (#204)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:48:44 PM EST
    that both Serbs and Croats had some deep seated hatred of Muslims because of the history of forced conversions, the Ottoman Empire, etc., I will agree.

    But it was not, as you agree, solely a religious war.

    Parent

    One (5.00 / 5) (#124)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:09:09 AM EST
    thing you apparently don't realize is that major evangelical organizations were going over to Africa to help them set up laws where gay people could be stoned or be sentenced to death just for being gay. And really if we don't want to deal with this kind of stuff in our own country these evangelicals need to be nipped in the bud instead of ignoring them.

    Parent
    I'd been wondering why those laws had been (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:36:59 AM EST
    popping up in Africa recently, as if out of thin air.  What a hateful god they worship.

    Parent
    I (naturally) (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:48:24 AM EST
    Have a niece who has been very active in Uganda and other places in Africa doing just that.  And IMO more importantly helping provide financial support for the locals to do it.
    She has now involved two of her three sons.
    The third one is gay. BAHAHAHAHA.
    and has nothing to do with them.

    Parent
    That is a very nasty charge (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:29:30 AM EST
    Please provide us with some proof.

    Parent
    Here's (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:36:24 AM EST
    one link and there's many more. The CEO of Chick Fil A was donating to one of the evangelical organizations promoting this kind of stuff. I've shown you this before but since you never click on links maybe you will this time.

    Parent
    My daughter belongs to one of those churches (none / 0) (#140)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:39:05 AM EST
    Saddens me

    Parent
    I'm sorry. (none / 0) (#153)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:35:20 AM EST
    So it is your contention that (none / 0) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:59:02 AM EST
    these churches with limited resources directed and changed the internal policies of Uganda??

    Laughable.

    Parent

    la la la la.... (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by sj on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:56:20 AM EST
    .... I can't hear you...

    Parent
    The guy who belives (5.00 / 3) (#194)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:59:45 AM EST
    in a liberal media conspiracy against Tim Tebow, and a world-wide climate science conspiracy wants proof.

    Someone better hurry and give it to him.

    Parent

    No jondee (none / 0) (#205)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:51:31 PM EST
    and please quit making things up...

    There is no "conspiracy."

    Just actions by like educated and like minded people who go to the same parties and associate with each other.

    You have the same thing on the Right.

    So sad you can't see that.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:13:14 AM EST
    the proof is there in the article but you just want to stick your head in the sand. I guess you also don't realize that some of these evangelical organizations have mutli million dollar budgets. Like I said Chick Fil A was donating to the cause too. Do you think they're poor and with a limited budget also?

    Parent
    I think you are grasping at straws (none / 0) (#169)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:09:04 AM EST
    assuming that outside groups can make Uganda change its laws.

    Perhaps we need to ask the State Department to study and adapt their methods.........

    Parent

    Just because fundamentalist and (5.00 / 6) (#127)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:48:11 AM EST
    evangelical Christians aren't beheading people on youtube doesn't mean they aren't working to impose their religious beliefs on others, and doing so with a single-mindedness that will not be deterred.

    Just because Islamic extremists prefer a violent approach doesn't mean that the more peaceful approach of fundamentalist Christians isn't resulting in hardship and death; just because something is "civilized" doesn't make it any less insidious.  

    Right now there are fundamentalist and extremist Christians working their tails off to legislatively send us all back to the Dark Ages, to impose their religious beliefs at all levels of society.  Are they beheading people?  No.  But if you think this brand of Christianity isn't every bit as intent on their goals as Islamic extremists, you're the one who needs a reality check.

    I'm not worried about some Muslim an ocean away who wants to kill me; I'm worried about the "nice" Christian men and women walking around looking oh-so-normal who want this nation to be ruled by and under their religious beliefs.  

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#135)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:31:57 AM EST
    It's not the same.

    Not even close.

    It's very bothersome to see progressives judge a group of people on their beliefs.

    You realize that a majority of Americans are Christians.  If we wanted to do the things you say we do it'd have happened already.    This nation was founded 228 years ago by Christians, Deists and agnostics.  The time to establish a Christian Caliphate was then.  It didn't happen.

    It's just ridiculous to compare the current state of Christianity to Islam.

    Burkas, stoning, mutilations, mercy killings on and on.  Things actually happening in the name of one religion and not in the other.

    Stop projecting your irrational fears of religion onto Christians and deal with the reality that if you lived in certain Muslim countries you'd have to cover yourself to leave the house and wouldn't be allowed to drive.

    That's reality.   In western country in the world there is Zero chance you will ever have these restrictions placed on you and you would be surrounded by Christians whoever you went.

    Can you say the same for the Islamic world.  Of course you can't.  Your rights would be infringed in the name of religion and if you made the mistake of being a Christian or a Jew you would be at bets hassled and forced to worship in solitude and worst jailed or murdered.

    That is the reality of today's world.

    Whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

    Parent

    Here's (5.00 / 4) (#139)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:39:00 AM EST
    the problem. You are focusing on mainline christians and Catholics. You are right. They are mostly about healing the sick, feeding the hungry etc.

    However, you are ignoring what Evangelical christians are doing. They are doing some real dastardly stuff and their goals are nearly identical to the radical Muslims. Their ideology is just as sick but their methods are different. Just because evangelicals aren't chopping off heads doesn't mean they dont have the same goals.

    Parent

    Good grief (none / 0) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:02:41 AM EST
    They are doing some real dastardly stuff and their goals are nearly identical to the radical Muslims.

    Really?? They believe in:

    Killing gays and fornicators?

    Forced conversions or being beheaded??

    Honor killings??

    Female circumcision?

    No education of females??

     

    Parent

    You completely (5.00 / 5) (#149)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:09:59 AM EST
    missed the point but that's pretty typical of you. Evangelicals want a theocracy just like the Mulims want a caliphate. Yep, a theocracy that evangelicals would be actually killing gays and fornicators and yeah, they don't think education of females is worth the while. After all educating females means they are going to take jobs away from men.

    Parent
    Ga, the difference is this (1.00 / 2) (#160)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:56:55 AM EST
    The Evangelicals are operating within the Constitution of the US and are non-violent.

    And before someone brings up OK City.... There was no connection. And before someone brings up the Dallas IRS suicide airplane crash... There was no connection. And before someone brings up attacks on abortion clinics there is no connection and there is no nation state support for them as there is in Iran supporting Hamas.

    And the point is this. Why do some people on the Left immediately bring up their perceived sins of Christians every time someone points out the actions of radical Muslims??

    It makes no sense. It is like someone speaking of the horrors of Ebola and someone else saying, "Yes,but those bad colds are also terrible."

    Even worse, it removes the focus from were it should be. The terrible actions of the radical Muslims.

    We can see now how ISIS is engaging in PR tactics.

    It would be helpful if our leaders spoke out and itemized the terrible things they stand for.

    Parent

    I'm going to point you to (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:48:23 AM EST
    the Southern Poverty Law Center, and ask that you take a look at or consider the existence of "Christian identity" groups deemed "hate groups."

    Take a look at this list of the 12 worst Christian Right Groups, if you will.

    I have no irrational fear of religion.  Where I feel fear is in seeing how much progress has been made in blurring the lines between government and religion - and how the end game of that blurring is elimination of the line that divides one from the other.

    Parent

    And I would add (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:49:57 AM EST
    The eager and widespread denial of everything you just said

    Parent
    Capt, I feel for you (1.00 / 2) (#167)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:05:30 AM EST
    You must have suffered some very harsh condemnations and other hurtful things in your past.

    But immediately attacking Christians every time someone mentions that Muslims kills gays and does other terrible things makes absolutely no sense.

    Please explain.

    Parent

    Mirror (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:07:48 AM EST
    It is because YOU identify as Christian, and have a big blind spot when it comes to your fellow terrorists.

    Parent
    No squeaky (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:14:35 AM EST
    My point is that there is no organized Christian group with outside nation state support killing and terrorizing and trying to change the laws of the US.

    Some individuals in denial of Christianity taught morals have done terrible things.

    As a nation we have condemned them and punished them.

    Parent

    Defensive? (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:20:35 AM EST
    I guess it is natural that you would be in such denial, considering that those who murder in the name of Christ put a big blemish on the, Brotherly Love schtick.

    Must be that they are not really christians.

    Hahahahaa


    Parent

    Thre are certainly plenty of American so-called (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Angel on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:27:24 AM EST
    Christian groups who support killing and terrorizing and trying to change the laws of the US.  

    My point is that there is no organized Christian group with outside nation state support killing and terrorizing and trying to change the laws of the US.


    Parent
    And these groups are??? (1.00 / 1) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:50:20 AM EST
    No, because that isn't a group who identifies with (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Angel on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:53:19 AM EST
    Christianity which is the topic in this part of the thread.  

    Parent
    Anne, I refer you to my (none / 0) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:58:34 AM EST
    response to Ga, directly above.

    And the point is this. Why do some people on the Left immediately bring up their perceived sins of Christians every time someone points out the actions of radical Muslims??

    It makes no sense. It is like someone speaking of the horrors of Ebola and someone else saying, "Yes,but those bad colds are also terrible."



    Parent
    Anne (none / 0) (#151)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:13:58 AM EST
     But if you think this brand of Christianity isn't every bit as intent on their goals as Islamic extremists, you're the one who needs a reality check.

    That is the clearest statement of moral equivalency that I have ever seen.  

    Parent

    I think we need to look at military spending again (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:30:17 PM EST
    Link

    "Depending on their configuration, the vehicles can cost the military between $416,000 and $775,000. But the cost to the city was just $14,000 for shipping, paint and details, according to the police department.

    "We were offered it through the (Department of Defense) program," Whitney said. "It didn't cost the city a penny. The only thing we had to pay for was to get it painted."

    Who wants good news? (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:36:04 AM EST
    Cuz I got good news...let the joyous news be spread, in LA schools "zero tolerance" at last is dead!  

    Score one for sanity...

    Cop in Ferguson Suspended indefinitely (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:44:13 AM EST
    after he gets his fifteen minutes of no-name fame:

    His Youtube Star Turn is Here:  (Very NSFW!!!!!)

    Today's takeaway: Learn to stream video directly from your phone.  That way there's no memory card to confiscate and "accidentally " erase.

    Ferguson & The Cult of Compliance (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:18:40 AM EST
    "Over the past few years, I have been tracking the rhetoric that police and other authority figures use to justify all kinds of violence. In cases that seem very different, separated by factors such as age, race, gender, sexuality, geography, class and ability, police explain away their actions by citing noncompliance. They do it because it works. They do it because according to their beliefs, any sign of noncompliance is an invitation to strike."

    - David Perry, AlJazeera

    Really good post (none / 0) (#201)
    by sj on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:36:09 PM EST
    His website looks interesting as well.

    Parent
    Nyshooter wrote (2.00 / 4) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:51:14 AM EST
    in another thread and Jeralyn said take it to an open thread.

    I'd like to get some feedback From the TL Community about the broader issue of Islam itself. For as long as I can remember, as a true-blue 60's Liberal, I bought into the conventional wisdom: Islam is one of the world's great religions; it, generally, promotes peace and brotherhood; it's the media that sensationalizes the barbaric acts of a tiny minority, Muslims shouldn't be broad brushed by some small percentage of anti-social zealots, and, so on.
    First, is it true?

    What is true?? Islam is defined as a religion yet it has all the trappings of a closed political system that seeks to control every aspect of its member's lives.

    Second, if the great majority of Muslims could affect change anonymously they would, overwhelmingly, choose peace and cooperation with all people and religions, and, give up the fantasy of a world wide, one religion, future?  Yes, or, no? It's only fear of reprisal by the militants that keep the majority quiet. What do you think?

    I do not know. But the reality is that the majority is letting the radicals set the agenda by default. At what point will this change? I do not know. But the current situation is very disturbing.

    Anyway, like I said, I, generally bought into those concepts for most of my adult life, but, now, I'm not so sure. I feel that most religions are simply vehicles that ambitious, power hungry, psychopaths employ to scare the living "b'jesus" out of the weak, uneducated/uninformed, and clinically gullible suckers that make up most of the world's population. But, having said that, most religions have evolved somewhat into the 21st. century, and have modified their views, and, rules to accommodate a changing world, at least, somewhat.
    All, that is, but one.

    I don't agree with your description of "most religions" but I will agree that most have liberalized.  Islam may have in some locations but it is clear that a significant number have not and they have radicalized a large number of Muslims.

    Is there any hope that Islam can mutate from its uncompromising 14th. Century views, and, demands, on its adherents?
    Can "change" happen, or is a "winner-take-all" Armageddon inevitable?

    Based on the responses of Muslims worldwide change will not happen fast enough to prevent a war. But I do not see it as a winner take all Armageddon. I do see the West enforcing its liberal culture on a culture that is not. The question is will the West act in time to minimize the cost. And it cannot just be the US. It must be the"West."

    I base this on my observations that Muslims do not integrate well into the societies they immigrate into but demand that the new society accommodate their previous religious and cultural norms. The riots over a cartoon of Mohammed, "harm" to a Koran, etc. do not speak of an acceptance of others views and life styles by a large majority of Muslims. This is further reinforced by their demands for special prayer facilities in public institutions, prayer times, refusal to carry dogs and alcohol when operating public transportation and such mundane things as touching pork when acting as a checkout clerk in a grocery.

    It can be said that many of these are anecdotal. But it is obvious they come from a background that creates them.

    To tell you the truth, whenever I see another atrocity like tonight's ( Personal disclosure: The decapitation of Danny Pearl flipped me out forever) I wish I was back as that crazy 19 year old jar-Head that could, and, would, take the fight to them, instead of waiting for my grandchildren to have to do it.

    Am I nuts, or, does anyone else have some politically incorrect stirrings going on?

    If you are sincerely stating your feelings then you are starting to question long held beliefs. I have been there and done that in another context.

    It is difficult and disturbing.

    I have had significant personal and business relationships with Muslims. I have found them to be just people. Good, bad and in between.  It is when they are in a group that the problems start. This is not unique to Muslims but is a troublesome fact.

    What I do think would be helpful is if we, as a culture, publicly and continually condemn such things as Honor Killings, killings of Gays and fornicators, teaching that Jews kill babies, denying women education, etc., etc. People do not change unless their failings are pointed out.

    the Abrahamic religious traditions (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:44:30 PM EST
    in general don't stand up to much in-depth ethical and intellectual scrutiny. To put it mildly. They seem to be mainly an attempt to cover with a "holy" veneer the most primitive in-group out-group desert tribal instincts and traditions.

    The Messianic end-times slant many Muslims, Jews, and Christians embrace being the most pernicious, fatalistic, life-denying development that all these movements have in common.

    I'm afraid Shooter's militant Zionism is behind his "only Islam" remarks. Radical Islam may be sick with a 104 temp, but many Christians and Jews are hovering steadily at 101..

     

    Parent

    Even more troubling... (none / 0) (#86)
    by woodchuck64 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:37:26 PM EST

    But the reality is that the majority is letting the radicals set the agenda by default. At what point will this change? I do not know. But the current situation is very disturbing.

    One would think Muslims would be highly motivated to find a solution:


    One thousand Muslims are being killed each day and 90 percent of the killers are also Muslims, the head of Turkey's Directorate of Religious Affairs (Diyanet) has said.

    "They are being killed by their brothers, not only in Syria and Iraq, but also in Libya, Pakistan, Africa and Myanmar," Prof. Dr. Mehmet Görmez said in his address to the participants of the World Islamic Scholars, Peace, Moderation and Commonsense Initiative conference in Istanbul on July 19.


    From here.

    By contrast, U.S. citizens overseas killed as a result of incidents of terrorism in 2013: 16.
    From here.


    Parent

    One key point (none / 0) (#115)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:22:42 PM EST
    Must American Muslims are here because they chose to leave the Islamic world behind.   They want their children to be free and live in a liberal society.

    If they didn't they'd wouldn't have come hear.  

    What we're talking about is the Middle East and certain corners of Europe were integration hasn't gone as well.  

    Militant Islam is an ideology based on power and is sold as an alternative to our western way of life.   It is anti progressive, libertarian and even conservative.   It is a virus that must be stamped out and no other ideology anywhere is anywhere close as problematic.

    Pretending otherwise is simply intellectually dishonest.  

    It's not all Muslims that are crazy  but it's more then all other religious crazies put together.


    Parent

    Maybe Hillary was right (none / 0) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:00:19 AM EST
    And President Obama should have done something about Syria before it spawned ISIS.  Things are kind of in a new light today :)

    ... after the Assad regime deployed and used chemical weapons, but Congress put the big kibosh on it after he looked to them for support. The damnedest thing is that many of those who opposed him then are criticizing him today for having not done enough. Go figure.

    Parent
    She said Obama should have (none / 0) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:15:40 PM EST
    Supported Syrian rebels, which ones though?  How could we have known the difference between ISIL and not going to become ISIL.  I have doubts that would or could be easy to do.

    Parent
    Exactly. And the problem of our armaments (none / 0) (#69)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:24:21 PM EST
    falling into the wrong hands.

    Parent
    So take them away from the cops. (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:36:22 AM EST
    Hindsight (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:07:34 AM EST
    Few of us would have thought so if he did.

    Parent
    I don't remember it being (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:49:12 AM EST
    so clear at the time as to who would be the right groups to support. Maybe I just did not inform myself enough.

    I took a break from listening to "Hard Choices". Will have to continue and see what she has to say about Syria.

    Parent

    It wasn't clear (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:20:29 AM EST
    Sometimes you have to stay out of things until you can't anymore.

    I refused to entertain the notion we should just inject ourselves, and I'm still okay with that. I will be very interested in hearing what Hillary "saw" in the tea leaves if she wrote anything about it though.

    I am fine that the Obama administration stayed out of it until genocide became something they had to address.  And in addressing the genocide ISIS decided to attack non-military targets, they chose to behead imprisoned journalists.  And here we are

    Parent

    Fair enough. (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:51:21 PM EST
    Militarytracy: "Sometimes you have to stay out of things until you can't anymore."

    Now that we see what ISIL is really all about, I've changed my own mind about the prospect of U.S. re-intervention. Their wanton and wholesale slaughter of Iraqi military prisoners and the Yazidis has convinced me that to abandon Iraq to their not-so-tender mercies would be just this side of criminal on our part, given our role in having destabilized that country in the first place. As former Sec. of State Colin Powell once warned Bush and Cheney, if we break it, we own it.

    Having failed to heed that warning by invading Iraq anyway, we quite obviously broke it, but in our understandable haste to depart from what was clearly a no-win situation in 2008, we imposed al Maliki's corrupt and Shi'ite-dominated government upon the country. Given the regime's perennial lack of popular support and subsequent collapse, that clearly did not work, by any rational measure or objective standard.

    We now need to accept our responsibilities here, and not allow Iraq -- and also Syria, for that matter -- to become a socio-political black hole in the region, which would otherwise suck everything into its vortex and reconstitute as Heaven only knows what. Therefore, our immediate goal here should be to prevent that, and stabilize the situation in Iraq militarily.

    We would also do well to resolve our current outstanding differences with Iran, so that we can work effectively with both the Iranian and Turkish governments to quash once and for all this potential reincarnation of a medieval caliphate, fresh from the 8th century.

    We then have to offer Iraq's beleaguered peoples a real, bona fide opportunity to chart their own destiny, which they've heretofore not enjoyed. We owe that much to them, at least, along with our further respect for whatever choices they do make. If they want to make a go of it as a confederated state like Bosnia-Herzegovina, fine. But if they eventually opt for the division of the country along ethnic and sectarian lines, then so be it.

    But let that be a peaceful, willing and voluntary separation on their part, and not a bloody drawing and quartering at the point of ISIL's sword.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Well said, that is my evolution of (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:37:42 PM EST
    thought as well, and probably Obama's.

    I don't see anything wrong with changing our minds as the situation becomes more clear. I know that is verboten in the Fox news world (flip flopper!!!!) but that is the reality of the world.

    Parent

    In the Fox News world... (none / 0) (#109)
    by unitron on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:55:49 PM EST
    ...if Obama takes the position you previously held you get to change your mind and pretend that you never ever even thought of holding the position which Obama now holds.

    Parent
    We are on the same page (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:10:33 PM EST
    Nice speech, Donald. (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:41:26 AM EST
    Now, HTF ya gonna do that, any of that?

    Parent
    From an earlier post by Jeralyn (none / 0) (#92)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 07:08:40 PM EST
    "ISIS says they've talked it out and decided they will fight to the death. They are all willing to die."

    I've come to the conclusion, as much as I am opposed to going back into Iraq, that maybe we should oblige them.

    These people have proven themselves to be vicious savages, who in my opinion, don't deserve to continue life on this earth. I would think that ISIS is one rallying point that could unite a very large coalition to stop them. Kill them all. No gitmo, no indefinite detentions.

    Parent

    That said (none / 0) (#93)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 07:15:08 PM EST
    I begin to very much agree with the school of thought that says that is exactly what they want.   With the earlier comment about baiting.  I said weeks ago that getting us involved was key to their corporate plan and that our involvement was more or less inevitable.  That they would do whatever it took to suck us in.   That will no doubt boost their recruiting and probably their financial support.

    THAT said.  I am beginning to agree that we should oblige them.   Just as you say.  No quarter.

    Parent

    My favorite line from "Gladiator" is ... (none / 0) (#105)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:36:43 PM EST
    ... from Gen. Maximus, as he faces an army of taunting Germanic tribesmen:

    "At my signal, unleash Hell."

    Parent

    If he had not (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:23:16 AM EST
    Obama administration stayed out of it until genocide

    Can you imagine the hell that would have rained down on him

    Parent

    From everyone (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:28:24 AM EST
    All sides

    Parent
    Pretty much the definition of a no-win (none / 0) (#42)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:06:59 AM EST
    situation.

    Parent
    I wouldn't have (none / 0) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:10:08 AM EST
    I probably would not (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:12:52 AM EST
    But you are right about it maybe being a good idea.  

    Parent
    Oops (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:14:50 AM EST
    I probably WOULD have

    Parent
    You know (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:14:16 AM EST
    what is ironic? When you look back on a lot of the things she has said she was right time and again and her critique of Obama back in 2008 turned out to be pretty right too.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:20:24 AM EST
    "Done something about"... (none / 0) (#60)
    by unitron on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:52:41 PM EST
    ...is such a nice, flexible phrase, so unencumbered by specifics.

    Even with the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure how one would have gone about preventing the rise of ISIS/ISIL without basically helping Assad slaughter his own civilians by the tens of thousands.

    How long ago did she first say that, by the way?

    Parent

    I think her argument is we should have aided (none / 0) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:17:48 PM EST
    Rebels.  And being the SOS she may actually know who we should have aided.  She had access to things others don't.

    I need more information :)

    Parent

    She said (none / 0) (#79)
    by lentinel on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:03:36 PM EST
    that Obama fkd up and should have armed the rebels.

    Obama said, according to Huffpo, that that was "horsesh-t".

    A day or so later, she said she didn't say what she said.

    Parent

    Yup, nice to see you coming around (none / 0) (#119)
    by Green26 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:42:17 AM EST
    on some issues. I didn't think we'd ever agree on much of anything, but the past few days I've noticed a number of things I agree with you on.

    Parent
    My above post was meant to respond to (none / 0) (#120)
    by Green26 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:43:10 AM EST
    MT's post.

    Parent
    ROME (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:09:00 AM EST
    HBO is rerunning this excellent series.  If you never saw it definitely worth a look.
    IMO one of the best things HBO ever did.

    I binged On Demand (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:11:43 AM EST
    All day Saturday.  I had forgotten about the series until I saw it on the schedule.

    Parent
    Isn't it great? (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:13:53 AM EST
    Have you seen Carnival?  HBO has been doing this for a long time.

    Parent
    I watched a few episodes of Carnival (none / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:16:20 AM EST
    So I have something to look forward to the next time it is pouring here.  Never watched it from the beginning.

    Parent
    I tried painting my bedroom red (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:14:58 AM EST
    The series originally inspired me to try something wild.  It was awful.  And it took so many coats of pale yellow to cover it my husband had to help me.

    "Tracy, don't ever paint a whole room red ever again!"

    I have been warned :)

    Parent

    Red definitely only (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:17:58 AM EST
    Works in the right room

    Parent
    I want to Chanel my bathroom (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:21:44 AM EST
    You know how she had many rooms in her home?  Pink and white stripe walls with black accessories or trim.  He's away.  That is when I am my most dangerous :). He could shoot me coming home to that having been done to his bathroom.  Good thing we don't own a gun.

    Parent
    I tried (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:38:19 AM EST
    painting my living room red and got only as far as one wall. Red is a color where you have to put on about seven coats it seems to make it look right.

    We then quit that and called the professionals in to paint the entire room and the kitchen.


    Parent

    We have a deep red wall in our (none / 0) (#27)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:54:42 AM EST
    dining room, on the same wall with the French doors, so the dark is balanced nicely with the light and doesn't make you feel like you're having a meal from inside a blood clot.

    It worked so well that I painted one wall of our bedroom in the same color - the front wall that also has two large windows in it.  It's cozy without being suffocating.

    What's funny is that a couple years ago, our neighbor offered to do some painting for us as "payment" for some help we had given him.  I arrived home from work one day to find my dining room now had four walls all painted eggshell - and I hated it.  The wall with the doors out to the deck got painted red again the next day.

    Parent

    I painted the house bathroom (none / 0) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:02:15 AM EST
    What seemed to be a nice white hue.  All four walls reflecting off each other in semi-gloss though gave the walls a glow I can only describe as "skin".  One of the creepiest things I have ever seen.  Had be re-painted a different hue of white :)

    Parent
    I understand (none / 0) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:17:50 AM EST
    the eggshell thing. I really do not like these neutral colors. To me they remind me of a hosptial or an institution.

    Parent
    Two words... (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by unitron on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:34:14 PM EST
    ...Blocking White

    That's what your first coat should be when changing color so radically.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:58:17 PM EST
    But I really didn't think it could be all that bad.  It was though :)

    Parent
    Ha! (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by ZtoA on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:53:28 PM EST
    I had a roommate who, I discovered one day, had painted our front door bright dark purple. That was OK (maybe not with the owners) with me. But I found her painting the small kitchen the same color and it was awful. We spent days painting a light yellow over it. Yellow and purple make a sickening brown.

    Parent
    I once worked with a woman (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:00:34 PM EST
    Who told me of a time when she decided to paint her living room one day while her husband was at work.  She went and got the paint, set up, and painted the stairway from upstairs down into the living room - two coats.  When her husband came home from work, he said, "What the he!!???"  When she asked him what was wrong, he asked her what color she thought she painted. Indignant, and thinking it a stupid question, she told him "Sage Green."

    Nope.

    It was school-bus yellow.

    Turns out she was color-blind and never knew it.

    Parent

    If you have your heart set on red, ... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:43:30 PM EST
    ... try a cardinal or burgundy hue next time, which is what my sister did with her living room in Monrovia, CA. The effect is actually quite striking in the fall, when you look outside the bay window as see the changing colors of tree leaves in the front yard.

    But red in general is simply a ghastly color for walls. And if you choose a fire engine or blood hue, you might just as well paint the adjoining room the color of the Golden Gate Bridge -- which is called "International Orange," BTW -- while you're at it.

    When we first bought our present place 20 years ago, the former owners were Filipino, and Filipinos have a distinct affinity for painting their homes in bright pastel colors.

    Accordingly, our front door opened into a canary yellow living room. And if you think red is bad, well, that's nothing compared to coral pink, which was the color of our kitchen cabinets. The master bedroom was sky blue, and one of the back bedrooms was a light creamsicle orange, while the other was bright turquoise.

    Oh, and we had '70s-era shag carpeting in the living room and hallway, which we subsequently discovered was covering a hardwood floor when we tore it out.

    Needless to say, it took numerous coats of primer and paint before we successfully muted that in-house kaleidoscope.

    Aloha. ;-D

    Parent

    I went fire engine...wow it was awful (none / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 07:42:55 PM EST
    I have had dark red (none / 0) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 07:48:41 PM EST
    Rooms before.  Needs to be a big room.  Hopefully with light.

    Dark green and dark red used to be my favorite wall colors.   My current hobbit house is to small for it.  

    Parent

    Joshua has changed rooms (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:26:00 PM EST
    To one that has its own bath.  And starting over....making a teen pad.  But I allowed him to choose his colors to his old room when he was seven and we replaced the flooring in his room.  His old room has a large light colored oak bookcase built in and he chose a very dark green and it turned out beautiful.  There is a window on two walls, so light from two directions, and light oak flooring.  I'm keeping his old room as is for the guest room.

    Parent
    Oh yes, I loved it too (none / 0) (#21)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:46:31 AM EST
    Will have to catch the reruns. No good characters like Pullo on current shows.

    Parent
    Nice to see you (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:49:01 AM EST
    Just getting ready to sit down to breakfast as watch last nights Tyrant

    Parent
    You too! (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:50:41 AM EST
    I haven't watched last night's episode yet. I got a houseguest hooked on it last week though!

    That and The Knick, which was great last week too. 1900 operating theater just as dangerous to nurses as to patients, apparently!

    Parent

    All three of us (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:54:43 AM EST
    Any good? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Yman on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:09:49 AM EST
    I was thinking of trying the series, but don't have a lot of time right now, so I haven't started it.

    Parent
    Record it if you can (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:39:43 AM EST
    So far it allows you to fast forward the commercials too.  It is a very compelling storyline.

    Parent
    I am relying on you brother (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:10:57 PM EST
    You are the only one I can trust.

    Yikes.

    Parent

    Do you think he is onto him? (none / 0) (#111)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:16:56 PM EST
    Don't think so when he said that (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:37:39 PM EST
    It was sort of heartbreaking

    Parent
    It is good - kind of soapy though (none / 0) (#67)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:16:04 PM EST
    It sure seemed to go fast (none / 0) (#82)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:23:54 PM EST
    I can't believe next week is the season finale

    Parent
    Watching now.... (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:43:04 PM EST
    Man, that Bassam has the most beautiful blue eyes since Jesse Pinkman!

    Parent
    He is suddenly going gray (none / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:19:33 PM EST
    Though right above his third eye.  Losing his religion

    Parent
    I did notice that - very odd. (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:54:45 AM EST
    If it is a costume choice - dealing with that brother would do it to you.

    If it is natural - dealing with the acting of that actor playing the brother would do it to you

    Parent

    You know that it is Bassam (none / 0) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:00:33 AM EST
    Who will ultimately end up being the "Tyrant"

    Parent
    Yeah, I pretty much knew that in episode 1! (none / 0) (#178)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:49:57 AM EST
    You know what I just (none / 0) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:59:34 AM EST
    (Very oddly for me) noticed?  They have completely avoided the subject of religion.


    Parent
    I think they are portraying this (none / 0) (#180)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:52:38 AM EST
    fictional country as being mainly Muslim in population, but secular in government. They do not seem to have any religious extremists groups to deal with.

    I guess the operative word is fictional.

    Bassam/Barry has prayed in mosques a couple of times - I was wondering if he prays at home too.

    Parent

    On the GOP not campaiging (none / 0) (#15)
    by CoralGables on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:19:26 AM EST
    against the ACA anymore as we head into the midterms:

    "Although it's not considered nice to state it bluntly: the attack on Obamacare depended almost entirely on lies, and those lies are becoming unsustainable now that the law is actually working."

    Paul Krugman (8/19/14)

    Oddly (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:23:16 AM EST
    Pryors opponent has been running the same old BS pretty much 24/7.   They either think it is working or they have nothing else.  
    It's weird.  Ever time I see one of the commercials it makes me chuckle.  Like, damn, there must be a lot of dumb as hell people in this state.

    Also clearly aimed at old folks.  Really hammering the Medicare lies

    Parent

    All i can (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:14:25 AM EST
    say is that here in GA they seem to think that the people that vote Republican are stupid or that the voters in general are stupid. Talk about dumbed down nonsense and boogy man fever and then condescending to boot.

    Parent
    Still using Medi-scare? (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:19:43 AM EST
    In Texas... (none / 0) (#41)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:04:37 AM EST
    ...it was 30 seconds of "Why I hate Obama More That the Other Guy", followed with doom and gloom imagery, deep voice explaining something, that leaves everyone wondering, "Did he really do that ?"

    Then the nice music with a picture of Cruz or Palin, then some kids, and eventually the candidate dropping a god and Texas reference letting us know he will stand for the Obama socialist agenda.

    Seriously, they played at least once per commercial break near election day and it was beyond nauseating.  And to know a lot of people in Texas don't care about any policy, just the fact that a candidate hates Obama that much, makes them qualified, and their candidate.

    Parent

    Haven't (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:20:07 AM EST
    seen that. Only that Michele Nunn is not qualifited and Jason Carter is going to take away your guns. These people are nothing if they're not predictable.

    Parent
    Or (none / 0) (#18)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:28:39 AM EST
    1. Most people are not aware of what their rates will be heading into 2015; they will also not know if they will owe money back on any subsidies until tax time next year;

    2. Ferguson and ISIS are apparently the only news going on.  No one else is reporting on anything else;

    3. The Republicans know they are going to keep the House, and maybe even pick up a few seats, and every day it looks better and better for them to take the Senate.


    Parent
    I do not think the R's (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:42:58 AM EST
    Will take the senate.  
    But I also don't think it matters much if they do.  Nothing is going to happen for the next two years.  Nada.
    If it stays status quo the republicans will stop it.  If the R's take the senate majority the president will.

    As long as no important judges buy the farm I don't see how it matters much.  We are all going to tread water for the next two years.  2016 is going to be a very different situation.

    Parent

    Yeah, in fact it might (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:52:15 AM EST
    be more interesting if the R's did take the Senate. Nothing would happen, but maybe in a more interesting way than nothing is happening now.

    Parent
    As in the old Chinese curse, ... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:48:49 PM EST
    ... "May you live in interesting times"?

    Parent
    But the point is (none / 0) (#40)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:00:59 AM EST
    If they think they are going to take the Senate (and I disagree with you - I think they will.  They need 6, and they already have 3 all but sewn up), then they don't need to be pounding "Obamacare!" 24/7.  

    But where I do agree with you is that nothing will get done for 2 years anyway.

    Parent

    The absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:45:41 AM EST
    wonderful thing is that if they do take the senate it's going to be crackpottery on steroids leading to a Hillary landslide in 2016.

    Parent
    They are pounding the he11 (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:14:34 PM EST
    Out of it here in AR.

    Parent
    Rates (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:11:47 AM EST
    have been skyrocketing since 2002. Everytime I point this out to a republican all they do is start to whine. So I guess they are hoping that people are ignorant enough not to know that. It seems like lying is their only way they can come up with a way to criticize Obamacare.

    Parent
    Lying has worked pretty well (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:17:43 AM EST
    To this day KY Kynect polls about 20 points better that Obamacare.  

    The smear job they did will be one studied by the right for years as "what works"

    Parent

    But Obama told us they would (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:30:23 AM EST
    be going down.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:43:58 AM EST
    they did go down for some people and went up for some people. Ours went down. So then you have to say that the GOP is lying too, Jim.

    If insurance is so expensive then why didn't your beloved GOP do something about the problem when they had complete control of the government? Rates were skyrocketing under them and they did nothing. I guess it was okay then because it happened under the GOP?

    Parent

    That's not what Obama said (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:16:42 PM EST
    He said they would go down.

    And the last time the Repubs tried to do something.... Medicare Part D.... it was opposed by the Demos.

    But I still like my solution. Single payer based on Medicare as a model paid for by a national sales tax.

    No sign ups, no websites. Get sick, you go to the doctor.

    Parent

    And the GOP (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:32:35 PM EST
    said they would go up. Quit apologizing for the GOP. If you want to hold Obama to that standard you should hold the GOP to theirs too shouldn't you?

    So what, Jim? They could have done something all by themselves with nary a vote from a Dem when they controlled all the levers of the government and they chose to let the rates skyrocket.

    Parent

    Ga, I haven't apologized for anyone (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:26:09 PM EST
    much less the GOP.

    I am just pointing out that Obama said that rates would go down. He also said you could keep your doctor.

    Neither were true.

    And when did they have all this vast majority you speak of??

    And how could they have stopped rates from rising? Price controls?? Well, if you want to create a shortage, control the price.

    Wait... that's what Obamacare is doing.

    And doctors are leaving.

    Parent

    The GOP (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:01:37 AM EST
    has you so bamboozled and is certainly doing a great job of playing on your lack of knowledge. So what do you say to the people whose premiums went down? You act like they don't even exist. And apparently you don't know about such a thing as out of network benefits that let you keep your doctor even if he's on the preferred provider list. The GOP has been lying and lying to you but I know you just can't accept that.

    Never said the GOP had a "vast" majority. You keep moving the goal posts. I said they controlled all three branches of government and they chose to do nothing. They were able to pass a lot of legislation so why didn't they do something about the insurance problem in this country? Because they were okay with all the problems, people not having insurance etc.

    Parent

    Sigh.... (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 07:16:51 AM EST
    And what did this mean??

    when they controlled all the levers of the government and they chose to let the rates skyrocket.

    You provide no details. No proof. When did they have this?? What could they have done??

    Obama could have introduced a single payer system and if it failed to pass, backed up and introduced Obamacare. He didn't.

    And I know no one whose premium has went down. To those who it has I would ask:

    Is your new coverage the same as your old?

    How much will your 2015 be??

    Are you saying 2014 went down because you are now getting a tax payer welfare payment (aka subsidy)?

     

    Parent

    Here you (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 07:30:45 AM EST
    go largest increase in insurance premiums 15% in 2002

    So now you're saying that there is nothing that the GOP could have done? That sure sounds like apologia to me.

    Look at NY State. Almost the entire state has had premiums decrease under Obamacare. The fact that we in the south are getting screwed by our governors does not mean that everybody in the country is Jim.

    No, this has nothing to do with the subsidy. It is strictly based on the price of the premium.

    Parent

    No, Ga (1.00 / 1) (#174)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:35:19 AM EST
    So now you're saying that there is nothing that the GOP could have done? That sure sounds like apologia to me.

    Tell me what the Repubs could have done.

    Introduce a bill that could what???

    How could they get it passed??  

    Would it have withstood court challenges??

    etc. etc. etc.

    And I have seen nothing that says the decreases are based with subsidies not included. ..

    "John was paying $300. He now is paying $200 because he has a $100 welfare (subsidy) payment. Therefor his premium has decreased."

    I have also not seen a study that defines the reduced premium coverage versus the previous higher premium coverage. Some people now have to drive miles and miles to see a doctor when their previous one was minutes away.

    Obamacare is welfare for the Democratic Party's base.

    Parent

    NY State (none / 0) (#130)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:12:40 AM EST
    Is a special case and shouldn't be really used to make your point.

    For years, New York has represented much that can go wrong with insurance markets. The state required insurers to cover everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions, but did not require everyone to purchase insurance -- a feature of the new health care law -- and did not offer generous subsidies so people could afford coverage.

    With no ability to persuade the young and the healthy to buy policies, the state's premiums have long been among the highest in the nation. "If there was any state that the A.C.A. could bring rates down, it was New York," said Timothy Jost, a law professor at Washington and Lee University who closely follows the federal law.

    More

    New York may have been more ripe for savings than other states. Like the federal health law, New York regulators require insurers to accept all applicants, regardless of medical conditions. Unlike the federal act, the state doesn't mandate that all residents -- including the young and healthy -- buy insurance.

    That's produced a market tilted toward sicker, costlier members and driven New York premiums to among the highest in the country. Starting in 2014, that will be mitigated by the federal law's subsidies for low- and middle-income customers, and its requirement that all Americans get coverage or pay a penalty.

    So, again, it started in an unusual place and can't really be used for comparison to other states.

    And for 2015, New Yorkers, like most people who buy their own insurance plans, are going to have rate changes all over the place.

    Parent

    The point (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:30:35 AM EST
    being that everybody didn't have their rates go up did they? All you need is one example to discredit a blanket statement. Some people's premiums went up and some people's premiums went down.

    Parent
    My point was (none / 0) (#144)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:56:36 AM EST
    You were using an outlier to prove a point about how people's rates went down, and it wasn't a good example of the reality.  Kinda like FOX or MSNBC.

    Parent
    Still it (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:15:25 AM EST
    undercuts the ARGUMENT that everybody's rates went up doesn't it? That's the argument that Jim is making. You can't use reasonable facts with him.

    Parent
    As others have said (none / 0) (#66)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:40:28 PM EST
    Rates have gone up for some and down for some.

    In terms of how that will change elections the questions are:

    1. Did rates go up for more folks or down for more folks?

    2. More to the point did rates go up for folks who would have voted for dems but now will not or did they go down for folks who would have voted for pubs but will now vote for dems because their rates went down.


    Parent
    My guess is (none / 0) (#68)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:20:45 PM EST
    More people will vote on things like the economy as a whole.  We keep hearing how it's improving, but it really isn't being felt by millions of people.  Add in a little of Obamacare, and how people generally feel about Obama (which in itself helps the Republicans), and I still see a Republican sweep of Congress.

    Parent
    Voting against (none / 0) (#73)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:07:58 PM EST
    Obama is mainly a tea party thing. Obamacare is probably a wash overall but as far as the eoonomy goes I'm not even sure that is going to be what people vote on because Georgia's is worse off than the country is nationally and it doesn't seem to moving the poll numbers for Carter.

    Parent
    Right (none / 0) (#74)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:12:43 PM EST
    But the Obama gets the blame for the economy, and by extension, all the Dems do too (even though, yes, I know, the Republicans control the House).  

    Parent
    No, I'm talking (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:36:30 PM EST
    about the state level. Deal has done a worse job than most governors on the economy. And then look at Kansas where the GOP seems to be collapsing. It's not gonna be so cut and dried as the beltway media would like you think. And then there's PA. I'm sure all that is what the beltway media is saying but they're pretty out of touch it would seem.

    Parent
    The President doesn't call them ISIS (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:59:52 AM EST
    I suppose I should stop too. So ISIL, the President was stern and clear and dead on.

    Seems pretty clear the gloves are off, and he indicates allies will be aiding us.  He indicated that in the death of Foley, justice will be done.

    Mission... (none / 0) (#85)
    by lentinel on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:36:48 PM EST
    WASHINGTON (AP) -- American fighter jets and drones continued to pound Islamic State militants in Iraq Wednesday, and military planners weighed the possibility of sending a small number of additional U.S. troops to Baghdad, U.S. officials said, even as the insurgents threatened to kill a second American captive in retribution for any continued attacks.

    creeps.

    I have seen this scenario all too often;

    Happening at a Fed near you (none / 0) (#88)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 05:01:22 PM EST
    how soon will rates go up

    link

    This week in Florida gun idiocy (none / 0) (#101)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:30:44 PM EST
    We were jealous of St Louis getting all the attention...Too hard to link to Orlando sentinel, so you will have to look it up....

    1. Night before yesterday....police trying to apprehend a drunk guy  waving a gun around outside a bar...they fire at him and bullets go through the bar wall or window and kill a woman inside.

    2. Yesterday....granny sleeping in her house, knowing her grandchildren were sleeping in other rooms. Has her door closed. Hears a sound outside her door and shoots through it  hitting her 7 yr old grandson in the upper body. No word on his condition.

    3. Policeman actually charged for shooting into an occupied vehicle from 70 ft away back in Feb. Supposedly shooting at an escaping suspect, but luckily did not hit the guy, who happens to be black, in case that eventually becomes part of the story. Never can tell.

    As I was saying in another thread...too many guns, too much violence...I guess we will never get enough of it as a society so I will wake up to these stories in the morning paper forever . Make it stop.

    Then (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:48:52 PM EST
    there is this

    Trial of Texas father accused of shooting driver who killed 2 sons raises legal, moral issues

    That is a Fox News headline.  Very interesting.  Like maybe it's, you know, OK to kill the guy.   I do not minimize the tragedy of the two sons but this is NOT a "moral" issue.  It's a legal one.

    Parent

    Amazing.....really, he was morally obligated to (none / 0) (#110)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:59:31 PM EST
    kill the guy. Can't trust the state to get to it anymore!

    Parent
    It's Texas. (none / 0) (#122)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:55:43 AM EST
    They'd no doubt do it eventually, but obviously not fast enough for this guy. I respect the law, and haven't much empathy for those who would seek their own special brand of justice through vigilantism.

    Parent
    That's heart breaking (none / 0) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:33:25 AM EST
    He shot the man minutes after his sons had been killed and the driver was intoxicated.  I can see that happening.

    On a highway in WY once, a driver flew across the grass median and almost did a head on with a truck in the other lane.  The truck closely shaved pulled over to help the driver who had piled up in the ditch.  I pulled over and dialed 911.

    Unfortunately the driver that freaked us all out was very drunk, and he stumbled out of his car mostly unharmed from what I could tell. But when the guy he almost hit realized he was drunk as heck...he started beating the crap out of him until another guy from another vehicle could run to them and stop him.

    Parent

    Beating the crap out of him (none / 0) (#161)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:57:50 AM EST
    I could probably understand

    Parent
    If my kids were dead (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:03:25 AM EST
    I can't promise you I would be sane.  Pretty sure I wouldn't be

    Parent
    Who would? (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:05:21 AM EST
    His reaction is understandable but guess what, he happened to have a gun.....

    Parent
    That Granny story is nuts, makes me (none / 0) (#142)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:49:58 AM EST
    wonder if Pistorious was telling the truth, a claim I had considered laughable before.

    Parent
    Good point, I hadn't thought of that. (none / 0) (#184)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:56:51 AM EST
    I still believe it should be some sort of crime (none / 0) (#192)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:52:38 AM EST
    to use deadly force at a hint of a possible threat.

    Parent
    Now conservatives love him (none / 0) (#199)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:24:37 PM EST
    now they don't..

    Maher is about as subtle as prostate exam. When did he suddenly become Mark Twain?