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Friday Open Thread

Joseph Sledge of North Carolina has been released from prison after serving 37 years for murder. DNA proved he didn't do it, according to the three judge panel that heard the evidence.

Sledge is the eighth person exonerated after the state set up the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission, the only state-run investigative agency of its kind.

The ISIS deadline for the Japanese hostages has passed. There is no statement yet from ISIS, but one is expected.

The Supreme Court today agreed to hear a challenge to lethal injection drugs filed by Oklahoma death row inmates. One of them has already been executed.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Tsarnaev Trial Start Delayed, New Battle Over Venue | Colo. Wannabe Terror Teen Sentenced to Four Years >
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    This is for Military Tracy (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 07:24:37 PM EST
    same sex marriage unconstitutional

    A friend of mine who is gay put it up and said even AL gets it before GA!!

    This might be one of the few times AL actually beat out GA for something. So MT be a little happy you live in Alabama today.

    Alabama had (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:05:54 PM EST
    a "belt and suspenders" ban--(1) a state statute and (2) a state constitutional amendment (2006),  District Judge Granade, an appointee of President George W. Bush, struck both down as violation of equal protection and due process of the US Constitution.  No stay was given, but the Alabama AG is requesting such.  

    The case involved Alabama's non-recognition of two woman's legal marriage in California whereby Alabama refused to recognize one of the couple as adoptive parent of their 8-year old boy since they were not spouses under Alabama law.  Even though the case was one of recognition of a marriage celebrated in another state, the Judge ruled against the interrelated state ban to license.  

    In taking up this matter, the US Supreme Court framed the issues it would address. The Court's first question is: Does the 14th Amendment require a state to license a marriage between two people of the same sex? And, secondly: Does the 14th Amendment require a state to recognize a marriage between two people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully licensed and performed out-of-state?

    It seems that the answer to both questions is no under the Constitution  only so long as the state does not license or recognize any marriages, same or opposite sex.  But, in fact, all states do license and recognize opposite sex marriages.  And, under the court's fundamental rights jurisprudence, states probably cannot simply deny marriage to everyone.

    Parent

    Funny (none / 0) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:38:15 AM EST
    That the name of our current AG who plans to seek a stay is Luther Strange :)

    AG Troy King visited Joshua's grade school.  Josh loved him.  He was big on protecting children.  Short career.  He was discovered acting gay.  I think his wife pressured him to step down.

    We still have a photo of Josh and Troy together.  Josh still says he really likes that guy.

    Parent

    How is (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:00:12 AM EST
    Mr. Josh doing these days? I got a kick out of his sharp wit and his mind that seems to absorb everything.

    Parent
    Teenager now, grumpy (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:19:41 AM EST
    Don't say the wrong thing to him in the morning :)

    Parent
    But grumpy boy teenager is (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:28:08 AM EST
    still worlds and orders of magnitude easier to deal with than seemingly-possessed-by-the-devil teenage girls, who can flip a mood faster than you can blink your eyes...

    Fortunately, they do come out the other side, and with patience and lots of deep breathing on parents' part, emerge from it all as wonderful human beings.

    At least they did for me; trust me when I tell you that I never stop being grateful for that!

    Parent

    Are we horrible mothers talking about (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:40:23 AM EST
    The teenage difference?

    Early childhood is different too.  Give me girls.  Josh wasn't very wild, he had physical restrictions though.  Our grandson is three, holy cow.  Since Podge got home, I don't exist either.  He jumps on his grandfather like he's a trampoline, he hangs on whatever he can get a hold of like Podge is playground equipment :).

    He wanted to go outside, mom said no, so he dropped about six feet to the ground from his bedroom window to the street front of the house.  But he'll tell you he's afraid of hikes (heights).  What heights is he talking about :)?

    Parent

    Heck, no, we're not bad mothers! (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:23:51 PM EST
    We're seasoned observers and dedicated facilitators of the shepherding-young-people-into-adulthood-with-all-parties-sane movement, lol.

    I have girls.  They began to change at the age of 10; I guess it was the brewing hormonal storm roiling things up or something, but it was definitely an age-10 thing.  And since my girls are 3 years apart, it was more or less constant, but to varying degrees, for quite a span of time.

    We all survived, thank goodness.

    So far, I have grandsons, and they are 26 months and 3 months.  The two year old is really feeling his oats, realizing he has the power to rule the world, or at least that he has power.  Some days, his favorite word is "no," even when he means "yes," and sometimes if one little thing doesn't go exactly - and I mean "exactly" - as he envisions it, the world ends.  My girls went through that at 3, not 2, and I admit that there are days when I suffer from all of these tendencies, or at least I feel this way, lol.

    But he's also funny and smart and affectionate and curious and happy more than anything, and it's a wonderful thing to be a part of.

    The 3-month old is still just an armful of snuggly love and heart-melting grins; his mother is getting ready to go back to work, part-time the first month, and is having a hard time thinking about leaving him.  I remember that feeling, and it's just so hard.

    These little ones are my first experience with boy children, and I have to say, I'm liking it a lot!

    Parent

    The rule of thumb I always (none / 0) (#126)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:30:11 AM EST
    heard is that boys are wild and break everything until the teenage years, while girls are nice and well behaved; then teenager on, boys are easy and girls are impossible--everything is a drama.

    Parent
    Ha ha so true (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:30:34 AM EST
    I didn't say much going through the teenage storm.  I just thought all of it.  My other child spoke it...wow :)

    Parent
    I hate to (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:05:30 AM EST
    be Debbie Downer but my almost 22 year old is still that way. Everybody says with boys it takes until they are 25.

    Parent
    It takes that long for the estrogen (none / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:06:37 AM EST
    Too sometimes

    Parent
    I can imagine. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:21:12 AM EST
    It seems to me that girls start with the attitude younger but get over it younger. With boys it starts later and ends later. Some of it seems to be personality. So far the 13 year old son doesn't have the attitude and is pleasant to be around.


    Parent
    LOL. Estrogen is a huge problem (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:46:11 PM EST
    for boys too.

    Parent
    I'm getting my second and third (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:21:52 PM EST
    high school and college groups doing studio visits. In the last couple of months I've already had two. Evidently the kids like it. Probably because I talk about sex in regards to art. Say things like "whether one is getting any or not, after a certain age sex is simply 'in the air' everywhere - sex is the soup of life". Then I refer to some art history and show that this is nothing new. The groups get really quiet, there is some eye contact, sort of, and actually get lots of truly interesting questions. Even a thank you note from the class. I love teens. Even loved it when I had one, but one of my strategies was to simply not notice certain things. As long as my daughter got As in school, played a sport, could also work 20 hours a week at the grocery store, had smart pretty nice friends, then I said "whatever".

    My nephew was a bit different. I had to look out so as he would not die of natural causes (like freeze to death since he forgot a jacket when he dragged me off to a camp - which turned out to be campING. I learned to not say "do you have a jacket?" but instead say "show me the jacket you are going to bring - let's put that in the car, now".  He told me the morning we were to take off to go to "a martial arts camp arranged by his dojo master" that we probably needed to bring some food. I thought the camp would provide the food. Not only was it camping, but the only water was at a hand pump half a mile away and the pit potties were half a mile in the other direction, and I was in serious need of a hip replacement. But we figured it out and it turned out to be a wonderful time. We told each other greek mythological stories late into the night since I did not have actual camping gear, only a pup tent and some blankets and no light. His knowledge of mythologies was very good too!

    Parent

    RIP, Ernie Banks (1931-2015). (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 10:34:44 PM EST
    Ernie Banks, aka "Mr. Cub," the genial and gifted Hall of Famer who became the most beloved member of the Chicago Cubs in the long history of that franchise, died today at age 83.

    Aloha to one of the true giants of the game, and one of the very best players to ever step onto a baseball field.

    I like to think that (none / 0) (#82)
    by Zorba on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:15:07 PM EST
    He and Stan Musial are at this very moment reminiscing about baseball and swapping stories about the intense rivalry between the Chicago Cubs and the St. Louis Cardinals.

    Parent
    Let's play two! He was my first sports idol (none / 0) (#194)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 06:06:52 AM EST
    and very probably the first sportsman I ever even knew by name as a wee one. When we would go to games at Wrigley back in the days when kids could go right down to the seats behind the dugout and along the baselines before the game and get autographs, he was the one we wanted to see, and he was usually there, smiling, chatting, giving autographs. There has never been a better ambassador for the game.

    Too bad they could never get him his World Series ring.  With both him and my dad gone now, winning it almost seems pointless now.

    Parent

    You can run but you can't hide. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by oculus on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 11:31:34 PM EST
    The tiny TV on the gas pump was on ESPN and those mysteriously tampered-with footballs.

    Huffpo ran a story (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 06:37:55 AM EST
    about a man on death row awaiting execution in less than a week.

    His story, as told, is that a man who was convicted of murder said that the man currently on death row had hired him to do the killing.
    The story in Huff says that he, the convicted murderer, is the only witness.

    The guy on death row claims innocence.
    He was offered a plea deal amounting to life but eligible for parole in twenty years. He is said to have turned it down because he was innocent and would not perjure himself.

    Story here.

    In "The Good Wife" - they frequently portray someone accepting a plea for a crime they did not commit out of fear of the alternative which could be a sentence of twenty years or even life if convicted.

    It strikes me, at least as it is portrayed, that the system wishes to avoid trials if possible - to save money - and so offers people a deal which an innocent person either accepts out of fear - or has to roll the dice and face consequences like the guy about to be executed in Oklahoma.

    Truly frightening.

    What makes it even worse (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:18:56 AM EST
    is that, not only must you plead guilty (even if you're innocent) you have to further humiliate, and perjure, yourself by publicly proclaiming your guilt and concocting a story about how you "did it."

    Parent
    I wonder (none / 0) (#47)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:21:35 AM EST
    what would happen if some soul pleaded guilty, made up all the necessary bs etc.,

    and then, a few years later, some kind of evidence, DNA or whatever, appears showing him to be innocent.

    What then?

    Parent

    My point, exactly. (none / 0) (#54)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 11:01:14 AM EST
    Why the court isn't satisfied with just a "guilty" plea, and has to compound the ruse with what it knows is a farce, by compelling a second lie is just a travesty.

    But, to your question, I don't know. I certainly would hope they wouldn't hold his earlier, forced "confession" against him.

    Maybe our lawyers here could address your question?

    Parent

    The way (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 02:57:27 PM EST
    things are, I kinda suspect that they would say, facts - whatever.
    He confessed and he did it even if he didn't do it.

    And they let him roast.

    Just on the basis of - gee - we have to have some credibility in these plea bargain scenarios ---

    Seems to me that the good old supreme court has let some poor souls fry in similar circumstances - new evidence, but nobody filed in time... so pull the switch.

    Sorry.
    Just one of those things.
    Hope you understand.

    Parent

    Will you stop it, please! (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:36:34 PM EST
    I feel like a freaken sycophant agreeing with you again and again.

    But, seriously, you hit on what I believe to be one of the most outrageous  assaults on justice I can imagine. The emotions I have when reading how, even when every item used to convict a defendant is later recanted, or, proved incorrect, but, dismissed/rejected by the court due to some "procedural considerations," just leaves one stunned, and, wondering what country we live in.

    Parent

    AlterNet: 7 heinous lies American Sniper (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 11:01:07 AM EST
    is telling America. The Clint Eastwood film suggests Chris Kyle was haunted by his actions in Iraq. The truth is more unsettling.

    Seth Rogen fires back at Kid Rock (none / 0) (#62)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:51:17 PM EST
    after 'American Sniper' criticism.  Rogen wrote on his Twitter page, jokingly, that Kid Rock is his uncle -- after Rock wrote on his website the comedian was "probably molested" by his real one.

    Raising America's collective conciousness, one flamewar at a time.


    Parent

    Sniper admits his work is terrorism (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:08:33 PM EST
    "As snipers we have a saying: 'Kill one, terrorize thousands,'" Meyer said.

    Parent
    "The Nightly Show" (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:55:18 PM EST
    The new Comedy Central show of Larry Wilmore, former "Senior Black Correspondent" on Jon Stewart's Daily Show, completed its first week.  The Show is in the time slot formerly occupied by Stephen Colbert.  The show is OK, but, clearly, it is a work in progress that seems destined to  become a gel of is best parts.

    Larry Wilmore is clever and a good host-- fast and funny in responses. Larry has cast his show not so much in the mold of Stephen Colbert or Jon Stewart, but as a Black Bill Maher.  Wilmore picks a topic that is discussed by several panelists.  The panel brings new faces as well as celebrities. Topics of the first week included the state of the black protest, Bill Cosby, Cuba, and, of course, President Obama.   The Rev. Al Sharpton was in for some friendly fire (Al, slow down man, you don't have to respond to every black emergency, you're not Black Batman).  Bill Cosby was in for some unfriendly fire.

    A recurring segment is called "Keep it 100," meaning keep it real (or be truthful) to a question directed to each panelist.   This segment may seem like a good idea, but, so far at least, it has badly missed the mark.   It needs to be sharpened or dropped.  

    The 11p-12 slot on Comedy Central has been among the best, and I hope the Nightly Show following the Daily Show will continue that hour of fun.

    I've been watching that show too. (none / 0) (#84)
    by desertswine on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:40:04 PM EST
    And I must say that I agree with your assessment. That panel needs some help, maybe its just been a bad mix so far, I don't know. And that Keep it 100 bit is just neither here nor there.  I do like Wilmore tho, he's quick and sharp.  But like you say, its a work in progress.

    Parent
    Comment (5.00 / 3) (#203)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 11:40:55 AM EST
    For Last Week.

    ZtoA - The Sherman controversy was Sherman going nutz over the 49ers after they beat them.  Specifically Crabtree.

    Never knew people were prejudice against the NW.  For me personally, I like Seattle and the the Peninsula, spent 10 days going from SEATAC to Mount Rainer to Olympic national Park.  Spent a night in railroad car and even went to Forks, and of course hiked a ton and was marveled by the Giant Sequoias and the entire rain forest.  then parties a couple days in Seattle.  

    Think maybe you are confusing a dislike of a team with a dislike of a region.  Not prejudice against the area, not a fan of the Hawks.
    ----------------------------

    15% air pressure - Drive over a speed bump with 35lbs, then do it with 15% less air at 30lbs.  15% is a huge difference in regards to absorbing inpact.

    There is little doubt in my mind that the NFL is not interested in taking the pats cheating seriously.  The pics of Goodell and Kraft in each others homes only reenforces the idea that he cannot be objective.  While sad, it is reassuring that the game will be the game, no missing parts, which would taint the game like the Pats have tainted all their games.

    There is no need for Hawks fans to stoop to the Pats level with bad sportsmanlike signs and whatever else has been recommended.

    Commercials are $4.5M for 30 seconds, last year $4M for the same.  The 'controversy' is effecting jack in terms of dollars.
    ------------------------------

    We have our FedEx tracking number for the tickets.  Here is how I am going to the SB.  A friend of mine has a co-worker that won a package because he was topped all sales.  He was trying to sell before the Cowboy/Packer game, there were 4 interested parties.

    The winner is going to Vietnam the Monday after and could not attend, he had to sell to someone at his company because they have to put the name on all the other non-tickets stuff.  He didn't want to deal with Craigslist or Ebay because the tickets were through work and didn't need ticket drama.  

    My friend is a packer fan and naturally called me.  Too expensive, but once the Cowboys lost, we were the only ones.  After we made a deal, I booked the airline tickets with miles, so my cost is probably under the cost of the face value of the package.  We have a driver for the weekend, staying at a resort, and VIP tickets for Saturday and Sunday related events, and of course SB tickets.  No idea about the seats.

    I was this close (fingers touching each other) going to a Packer SB.  But it was not to be and I am going for about a cheap as someone can go.  And while I hate the term 'Bucket List' this is a bucket list item.  I am freaking out, this is the coup d'etat of sports, maybe the World Cup is bigger, but not for Americans or me.   And after trying to get tickets for the SB in Houston and the SB in Dallas, which the Packers went to, I know that I am going for a little over a third of what people are paying for just a ticket.

    With stuff like this, I am never lucky, so I am going to truly enjoy the very rare time I get so GD lucky I can hardly believe it.  And while the Packers are not going, being a Packers fan is the only reason I have this opportunity, and that rocks.

    40 years for a crime he did not commit. (none / 0) (#1)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 04:51:29 PM EST
    Where's Miss Emily Litella?

    Might we then suppose that ... (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 05:10:31 PM EST
    ... given today's announcement from Time-Life Publications, this year's Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue will be comprised entirely of selfies?

    Well, it (none / 0) (#5)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 05:50:02 PM EST
      reduced its commitment to writing years ago.

      I got a subscription as a present in 1967 and kept it for close to 40 years. At one time, it had some very good staff writers. Dan Jenkins, Frank Deford and Jack Olsen come to mind. "Guest writers" included  Delillo, Hemingway and even Faulkner (the latter 2 before my time) and other "serious" writers writing about sports.

      I trace the beginning of the  demise back to  the 80s when the dumbing down began (and Rick Reilly came aboard, coincidence?). I still read it occasionally in the dentist's office  etc, and (like its parent publication) it now seems a publication for people who don't really like to read and just want graphics, factoids and punditry.  

    Parent

    Yemen (none / 0) (#3)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 05:35:48 PM EST
    Reports of Government collapse.

    NPR

    Keep in mind this was a success story just a few months ago.

    Iran might be the big winner in this getting influence over another state in the region.

    What a mess.  

    You know (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 05:40:46 PM EST
    there were a lot of predictions about how instability would roil the middle east by going into Iraq but it's been much much worse than I ever imagined.

    Parent
    Pretty much (none / 0) (#7)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 06:13:56 PM EST
    what I expected, colossal failure. Probably not even worst case scenario yet.

    Parent
    This is much bigger then Iraq (none / 0) (#13)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 09:42:03 PM EST
    This is now a religious war between the Sunni (SA, Egypt) and Shia (Iran and proxies) for control of the middle east.

    What makes the Iraq war so maddening and our continued actions just as much is we are now stuck in the middle with the Sunni's as our "Allies" while we attempt to negotiate an impossible peace/arms deal with Iran.

    Oh and we also support Isreal.

    Not a very good position to be in.

    Parent

    ISIS has hundreds of zealots perched on (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:44:14 AM EST
    Lebanon's eastern border, meaning that the only thing standing between ISIS and Israel is Hezbollah, Iran's proxy, and it was only a couple of days ago that an Iranian general was killed in that area.  

    Strange times, as in runaway chain reactions.  Did you notice that the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists advanced its doomsday clock - to three minutes 'til.  I haven't seen that since I was very young.

    Parent

    The alarmist talk is (none / 0) (#20)
    by MKS on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:03:57 AM EST
    over the top.

    The Middle East has been roiling with conflict for how long now?

    The News and talking heads and elected officials are all panicked over this.....

    When the terrorists in Yemen or anywhere else get an aircraft carrier, let me know.

    People just panic and overreact.....

    Parent

    I worry it will escalate (none / 0) (#22)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 05:51:31 AM EST
    Because the side taking and the way the parties are lining up against each other is the natural order of things.   The region was first decided into nations by the West After WWII then ruled snd suppressed by western supported Kings and military tyrants.

    Now those shackles have fallen off and we are seeing the results.

    Maybe your right and once things work themselves out, which means lots more killing and hopefully not with us involved, we can enter a Cold War type arrangement with that part of the world.

    For good or bad though our state department and politicians never seem to see it that way so I predict unfortunately we'll be knee deep in it for years to come.

    The 2016 candidates better start working on their strategies for this because as it gets worse I predic we the American people are going to want less and less to do with it.

    Parent

    WWI (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 05:52:14 AM EST
    Typo

    Parent
    WWIII's the one I'm worried about. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:54:01 AM EST
    Who was it that said, (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 07:22:20 PM EST
    "I don't know what weapons will be used in WW3, but I do know that WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones."

    Parent
    Pretty sure it was Einstein... (none / 0) (#109)
    by unitron on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:06:45 PM EST
    ...and he would have known.

    Parent
    How? (none / 0) (#79)
    by MKS on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:03:15 PM EST
    How many terrorists are there?  A few thousand.  And they can invade us?  

    Parent
    I think they about someone in Pakistan (none / 0) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:09:19 PM EST
    With access, being Inspired.

    Parent
    Charlie Hebdo (none / 0) (#86)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:48:19 PM EST
    More kids are gunned down in schools (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 08:27:06 AM EST
    here by lone gunmen than those killed by "terrorist" acts here.

    Parent
    Maybe they do see it (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 07:42:29 AM EST
    Chaos, death and war are just the side effects of the grand geo-political game that has been played across the middle east for all of recorded history.
    I don't see the big players walking away from the game as long as there is oil in the ground.

    I do see a major power shift happening with Iran and the Shia steadily gaining power thanks to the blunder by Bush. I would not be suprised if we eventually fully engage with Iran and throw the Saudis under the bus.

    We have always been at war with Eastaisa !


    Parent

    Bush definitely lit the fuse (none / 0) (#28)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 07:50:13 AM EST
    And what  is sad and shows our total lack of understanding of the region was how conventional wisdom in the West was the Arab Spring would somehow bring in a new age of government in the middle east.   New democracies and freedoms that they had not previously experienced.

    That was the last gasp of hope for the neocons and our foreign policy apparatus as a whole.

    Now we know it was only a step towards the chaos we see now.

    Parent

    total lack of understanding (none / 0) (#30)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:42:51 AM EST
    or willful ignorance by the powers that be? Conventional wisdom or just a feel good narrative foisted upon us by the info-tainment industry?

    Parent
    Tyrants and dictators murdered and tortured (none / 0) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:50:14 AM EST
    The people at will.  That's very damaging to the social psyche.  I believe human beings are very tribal, and certain leaders can help to bring healing. Mandela and MLK were able to unleash self awareness and healing.

    I still grieve how the intellectuals in Iraq were murdered after we invaded.  Word was even sent out, that esteemed secular leaders and intellectuals were being specifically targeted and murdered in order to rob the frightened of their wisdom and words.  The Bush regime knew this was happening, many distraught voices begged them to do something and they did nothing.

    Robbed of anything other than terror, they will respond with what is familiar.  Torture and murder and fear organized them prior to the invasion, they will reorganize under what they understand because everyone who had mentally worked their way out of that and toward lobbying for healthier realities is in a grave now.

    Parent

    Sucess story ? (none / 0) (#6)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 05:50:35 PM EST
    The strongest branch of Al-Qaeda has run wild there for years.

    Parent
    Yeah, Yemen has been a (none / 0) (#21)
    by MKS on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:05:20 AM EST
    disorganized disaster for years.....What success story?

    Parent
    It was a "success" (none / 0) (#32)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:49:21 AM EST
    in that, just resigned, Yemeni President Abdu Rabu Mansour Hadi was an American, and Western, ally.

    Parent
    Some people see (none / 0) (#35)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:09:28 AM EST
    an ally, some see a puppet.

    Parent
    Doubt if (none / 0) (#66)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:09:42 PM EST
    Ali Abdullah Saleh, who survived an assassination attempt but was severely burned and otherwise injured, would consider Yemen a success for him.   He described his 33-year rule as "dancing on the heads of snakes."    Yemen is now a worry for King Salman and the Saudi royals.

    Parent
    Oh Jesus (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 11:08:34 AM EST
    When was Yemen a success story?

    Parent
    Also...time to give President Obama a (none / 0) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 11:12:59 AM EST
    New AUMF.  He was hamstrung in Libya by Republicans screeching that he did not have their authorization to overstay his 90 days.  I really don't want another Banghazi!

    #WagThisDog

    Parent

    Libya is all on Obama (none / 0) (#72)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:53:47 PM EST
    Can't blame that one on Republians.

    Hillary also a big supporter as well.

    Parent

    Libya is on Obama, (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:10:03 PM EST
    and advisors, Clinton, Powers and Rice.  And, of course, Cameron and, especially,  Sarkozy.  An involvement that I termed from the start, "Operation Hoodwink," since the ostensible reason for intervention was "humanitarianism," in Benghazi.  UN Resolution 1973 was stretched like a rubber-band to achieve the real goal of regime change and Libyan sweet oil.  Libya is on Obama, but not all on Obama.   We also have Republicans such as McCain and Lindsey.  It may be the only time McCain agreed with President Obama, saying he did the right thing and offering a supportive resolution.  


    Parent
    Oh that's fine (none / 0) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:00:20 PM EST
    He just needs another AUMF to deal with these new more complicated situations.  Otherwise if there is another Benghazi it will be on Republicans.

    Parent
    No complaints here (none / 0) (#105)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 07:18:14 PM EST
    I like you think it's ridiculous that these presidents do this stuff without getting authority from Congress and buy in from both parties.

     But once he's got it then what do we do?   Once again our military will get an unclear mission, terrible rules of engagement and will just kill a bunch of people without achieving any objectives that mean anything.

    Either unleash the might of the American military and whipe these guys off the face of the earth or don't bother.

    Parent

    If you can figure out how... (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by unitron on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:12:19 PM EST
    ...to wipe those guys off the face of the earth without doing the same to a bunch of innocents as "collateral damage" (or somehow magically convince those who survive them that it was worth it), I'm sure we'd all love to hear the plan.

    Parent
    Just a moment ago you wanted (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:47:12 PM EST
    Obama to blow off Saudi Arabia for their human rights violation record, but then in the next breath you're upset that our troops aren't allowed to annihilate everything and everyone in their path and crap on the Geneva Conventions and The Hague and the whole world.  I find you morally skewed and confused.

    Parent
    Far from it (none / 0) (#123)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 11:41:21 PM EST
    The threat "we" face and by we I mean Western Society is Radicaal Islam and the terrorism that comes with it.

    After 9/11 we confronted that threat by invading Afghanistan and Iraq.   All the while not acknowledging and confronting the ideology that was behind the attacks in the first place.   We wilfully ignored the culture of the region and convinced ourselves that all this part of the world needed was a little democracy after we got done killing people and we would create a new place ready to join us in peace.  

    So we sent our boys off to war to defeat an enemy we didn't understand, in a region that didn't really want what we were offering with a military mission that was not for total victory but instead nation building and pacification while the democracy took root.    

    Meanwhile we did zero to combat the sources of the ideology that were responsible for 9-11 in the first place.   Like the schools of Radical Islam in SA and the network of groups who proclaim to be moderate but instead spread the same message that inspires young Muslims to hate and attack the West, namely us..

    Throw on top Gitmo, torture, NSA, and our drone policy and you have a decade of wasted time, money and lives while the ideology continues to spread as fast as ever.

    If we want to really defeat the ideology we need to name it, and call out the countries and organizations that continue to spread it.  And honestly we probably can't defe it but we can at least acknowledge the difference and advocate our ideas are better.

    As for ISIS personally we cannot "defeat" them because again we are not fighting a nation but an idea.   But if we wanted to really destroy the gang that is ISIS today we could if we committed to it militarily.   But once again we use our military as a surgical tool that makes pinpoint strikes etc... Something that we all know isn't going to work.

    As with everything this past decade or so it's our lack of understanding and our lack of total commitment to a clear mission that leads to this quagmire and now a region in total chaos.

    Blame Bush for starting it, Obama for continuing it, the neocons for cheerleading it and the week kneed Dems and repubs for sitting by and watching it happen.

    And as you say how about a plan and some buy in from  congress for how they plan to defeat ISIS.  If it's more of the same please don't bother.  I don't want another invasion and more dead Americans and civilians either but how else could

    Parent

    The threat we face are a bunch of radicals (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 11:37:21 AM EST
    Who attach themselves to Islam.  The world has always had radicals though, and terrorists,  and terrorist radicals, and radical terrorists.  We process these developments on a thousand different levels before they are worked through.  I think you fit the bill that Ga6th wrote about.....sending the military to fix things that a military cannot fix.

    Another nation's culture is not our culture.  And ideologies?  Individuals attempted to explain the regional ideologies to Bush and Cheney and it fell on deaf ears.

    Bush and Cheney had deep friendships with Saudi royalty (dictators). They refused to conceive that the little people in the Middle East could matter when they were writing history.  Remember THAT HOR$E$hit?  Remember when they gloated in front of all of us questioners and they called us simpleton cowards?  Because I do.  In their existing world, so far everyone had been controlled by finding the right thug.

    Angry people are angry people, hurt people are hurt people, go ahead and pound them with a fist, that has fueled them for generations, they know how to feed on that and convert it to energy.

    Getting to a larger peace is a lot more complex than you want it to be.  I believe my President has done a superb job so far.  There is NO Republican administration who could even lay a finger on the Obama administrations accomplishments when facing the fire the Iraq War set.

    Parent

    Superb Job? (none / 0) (#164)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:44:21 PM EST
    Can anyone else take this one?

    Parent
    We "defeat" them? (none / 0) (#124)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 11:45:11 PM EST
    If we won't fully commit why does the president keep telling us that's the goal?

    It's maddening.

    Parent

    A u-turn? (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by christinep on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:01:08 PM EST
    Slado: Reading your general narrative about how the Mideast situation developed following 9/11, I can follow.  Then, however, you seem to stomp in frustration about the fact that the upheaval heightened by the Iraq War continues and spreads to & through groups such as ISIS/ISIL .. that is where you convey to me the image of one throwing up the hands in impatience because the consequences of war and the emergence of new forms of terror don't conform to a quick, certain ending.  And, that is where--it seems to me--that you lose direction and substitute a kind of "just get it over with" wishful, rather irrational thinking.

    This isn't a computer game or any other simulation. As you have realized, the various forms of terrorism do not fall in line with the outlines of nation states.  As MilitaryTracy keeps stating: Who are you going to bomb or wipe out--and how--in your exasperation? It doesn't work that way.  There really is no there there in terms of state, nation, neatly-defined locale.  You know that the Mideast complexities resemble a labyrinth ... or you should know that.  We are at the step-by-step process yet of picking off/displacing/overcoming obvious terrorists on the way to the key to the labyrinth.  

    Take a deep breath. There is no instant gratification in labyrinths.  OTOH, let me suggest that the demonstrated kind of discipline, patience that President Obama practices does pay off ... whether in getting breakthrough agreements with China or the significant agreement as to nuclear usage with India today or the getting-your-man reality of Osama bin-Laden. Strong diplomacy in the complex world of international relations today ain't TV or adventure novels; it pays to take the long view.

    Parent

    I'm frustrated because (none / 0) (#163)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:41:55 PM EST
    the mistakes that led to the Iraq war and even some of our actions in Afghanistan have not been corrected.

    We have an administration that won't even call radical Islam what it is.

    They are engaged in a war against ISIS with no plan and no end game.

    Yemen is collapsing and a AQAP will now be free to set up shop.

    Meanwhile Iran continues to increase its influence over the region and our administration is laser focused on some sort of deal over nuclear weapons that will never get done.

    Why wouldn't I be frustrated by the actions of our president and frankly Republicans going right along with him because they're only complaint is he's not dropping enough bombs.

    I'm the last person who thinks a big ground invasion is going to do any good my point is only to state when you use your military you should use it we keep using it like a surgical tol and it's not doing any good.

    Richard Engle

    Watch the piece from the link by Richard about a man on the inside of Isis. Then ask yourself if we're on top of it.

    Parent

    The fact that something is frustrating means only (none / 0) (#170)
    by christinep on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 03:23:21 PM EST
    that it is frustrating.  I understand that... and, the ongoing situation makes just about any sentient being want to scream. That is all that means, until we realize that we see only part of the puzzle.  

    We are not the ones with the daily intelligence briefings, we are not the ones facing directly day-to-day crises in the Mideast at the diplomatic and military levels, we are not the one with life & death decisions immediately on our shoulders.  While the communication styles--and attitudes--inculcated by the genuine (and not so genuine) info on the internet might tease us into thinking that we all know the ins & outs of Yemen or the status of the Saudis role today or any number of things, we really don't have that info. at our fingertips.  Remember, for example, that only the President of the US has the nuclear code and the Red Phone, etc.

    Why the reminder of what we as active citizens know and don't know in the way of details of international crises as they are happening ... because it allows us, should we choose, to recognize that the shadows on the caves may not all be monsters.  

    In this case, it allows all but the most anti-Obama bloggers to let it play out a bit.  After all, this twice-elected President does deserve a bit of benefit of the doubt when it comes to the bailiwick of Presidents--foreign policy--as almost all Presidents have been given. President Obama has shown himself to be quite rational, methodical in international decision-making ... no big nor sprawling wars or spiraling military incursions on his watch despite the fever pitch of some well-known neo-cons and prominent conservative politicians to do so.  We all make missteps, and so has he (Libya maybe?)... but, heretofore, the President has steered this ship of state in the international troubled waters fairly well.

    Again, speculation about next moves & all that is one thing ... but that is all it is, especially in international relations.  Watchfulness makes sense.

    Parent

    Can't really agree with you (none / 0) (#176)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 04:40:40 PM EST
    If the foreign-policy goal is not to get involved in another land war then yes he's done a great job.

    Your point is a valid one in that he's done what he's said he was going to do which is get our soldiers out and not rush into conflicts with significant amounts of troops.

    Lybia is truly an outlier.  Seems like he got talked into that one and is not going to ever make that mistake again.

    But when I see the mess that the ME is becoming and hear him tell us at the SOTU it's time to turn the page it worries me just a tad.   He's been president for 6 years, wait much longer for his long term plan to work and he's gone.

    Again I don't think our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have done a bit of good to combat the threat of Radical Islam and he has waged a questionable drone war as well on top of it that falls into the same basket.

    He needs to do a better job of communicating his strategy instead of what looks to me like constantly playing catch up.  He seems to be constrained by his cautios nature at times and we find ourselves in muddled missions like the one against ISIS, locked in pointless negotiations with the Iranians and losing influence in the region day by day.

    We'll just have to wait and see.

    Parent

    Muddled missions? (none / 0) (#177)
    by Zorba on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 04:53:17 PM EST
    Do you mean like going into Afghanistan, which has for many, many centuries been a problem for invading armies, including the Soviets, the British, and even way back to Alexander the Great?  Perhaps we should have studied history on that one.
    Or do you mean Iraq, which we invaded because of a false premise, and left it worse off than it was before?  Iraq, which was a country cobbled together by colonialist powers?
    "Those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it."
    George Santayana.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Slado on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 05:31:16 AM EST
    Our mission in Afganistan should have been to kill Bin Laden and damage their network so they could launch a terror attack like 9/11 again.  Simple, precise in and out.

    But for the foreign policy crowd that wasn't enough.  No we were going to bring democracy to Afghanistan and run the Taliban out of there and establish a beacon of freedom that would transform the Middle East.  

    One must note that this war was on everyone.  Apart from a few isolationist libertarians and pacifist progressives nobody objected to this plan.  

    Thirteen years later how did we do?  We are leaving a mess.

    Iraq is just the same logic applied to a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 but once the democracy argument gained merit and our intelligence agencies and Bush saw weapons where they didn't exist he was able to convince enough democrats to go along with him on this mission of freedom and democracy building and the rest is unfortunate history.  

    So yes I think both wars were foolish because the mission of building nations was impossible and we did so not understanding the true motivations of our enemy or the people who lived in these countries.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#182)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 07:23:07 PM EST
    here's what the problem is. When you talk about "radical Islam" instead of just plan terrorism you are making their case for them. What they are going to hear is "Islam is under attack" unless you then spend five paragraphs explaining that it's not all of Islam but just this one part of Islam and how many are going to understand that it's not them??? Talking about Islam in this context just makes them think that Osama Bin Laden was right and that the US being a "Christian nation" since they don't understand democracy wants a holy war. All that talk does is make things worse. The only reason conservatives seem to think it needs to be said from what I've seen is because they think Obama is a Muslim and that is why he won't say "radical Islam". It might be what you want to hear but is it the best thing to say? Do you really want to make it about a religion when you're trying to separate the wheat from the chaff in the middle east? All that talk does is alienate yet more people.

    Parent
    Conservatives think he's a Muslim? (none / 0) (#192)
    by Slado on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 05:49:44 AM EST
    Come on GA let's not ruin a good discussion with that kind of stuff.   Yes a couple kooks say he's a Muslim but they aren't in of any importance.  I don't think he Nuslim, no one I know does, no one I read on my side of the coin does.

    Your other argument that naming it empowers them is interesting but to me a little bit of wishful thinking.  It shows to me that like the administration you don't realize that no matter what we say they are going to want to convert us or kill us.

    If you have the time here is a Short film by a Muslim about Radical Islam and what their motivations are and where they come from.   My take away is that they could care less about what we say and do when it comes to their beliefs and goals.   While our actions have given them recruiting tools they held these views long before we even started using the terms we avoid saying today.

    To combat this ideology we first must understand it and reconcile ourselves to how many within the Islamic would are part of this movement, somewhat sympathetic and totally against it like the filmmaker.

    Parent

    You have (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 06:45:13 AM EST
    to admit that there are many, many conservatives that think that Obama is a Muslim and they think that is the reason he won't talk about or use the phrases that they want him to use. I believe it is something like over half the conservatives here in GA don't even think Obama is a US citizen. I really wish they didn't think that crazy stuff because like you say it isn't helpful to any discussion but it is what it is.

    Yes, my point is why give them even more recruiting tools? And the thing is terrorism somehow better when it's committed by someone who professes to be a Christian like Eric Rudolph? To me terrorism is terrorism no matter who commits it.

    Parent

    No I can't admit that. (none / 0) (#199)
    by Slado on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 08:40:57 AM EST
    You have a very partisan view of the "conservatives" that live around you.  You don't have to think they're nutso to disagree with them and they don't have to hold these outrageous views to disagree with you.

    I don't.

    A few more probably think he's not American because they just don't like him and it makes it easier but remember back to all the silly things people believed about Bush, Clinton and Reagsn.   It's unfortunate but these lies always seem to infect the discorse but they are never widely shared.  

    Leaving that aside of course our actions help the jihadi's but as the video shows that does not explain The hatred they had for us before 911 for the hatred they have for their fellow Muslims around the world who did not ascribe to their conservative or radical form of Islam. Those people did nothing to them other than not hold their views.

    If you just listen to what they're saying it's quite simple. Their goal is for the entire world to be under the rule of sharia and their form of Islam. Everything else is just how they get there and who is standing in their way.

    You can use nice words, you can stop bombing them, but that isn't going to stop them from trying to achieve their goal.

    Parent

    Sorry (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 10:13:49 AM EST
    Slado. It's not a partisan view but facts that have come out of polling. It's my opinion that i formed by myself but an opinion based on what these conservatives are telling pollsters. You have to remember that something like 2/3 of Republicans or conservatives believe that we actually found WMDs in Iraq.

    Parent
    Ross Ulbricht's secret Silk Road Diary, (none / 0) (#9)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 07:52:13 PM EST
    which has apparently been entered into evidence and made public.

    I then went out with J****. Our conversation was somewhat deep. I felt compelled to reveal myself to her. It was terrible. I told her I have secrets. She already knows I work with bitcoin which is also terrible. I'm so stupid. Everyone knows I am working on a bitcoin exchange. I always thought honesty was the best policy and now I didn't know what to do. I should have just told everyone I am a freelance programmer or something, but I had to tell half truths. It felt wrong to lie completely so I tried to tell the truth without revealing the bad part, but now I am in a jam. Everyone knows too much. Dammit.

    N.B. If you're gonna be a master criminal, don't keep a Journal.

    I'm really out of the loop . . . (none / 0) (#10)
    by nycstray on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 08:01:57 PM EST
    what is terrible about working with bitcoin?

    Parent
    Nothing. Ulbricht is on trial (none / 0) (#11)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 08:38:02 PM EST
    for constructing and operating the Silk Road drug marketplace on the dark net, that which you can reach only via anonymizing Tor browsers.  Transactions were funded using anonymous bitcoin.

    I don't know who knew about it before the Gawker article appeared, but afterward, even the tube-internet using geezers in Congress knew about it.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#12)
    by nycstray on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 08:55:35 PM EST
    Just couldn't figure the bitcoin thing out, as I had never really heard anything that should make one feel terrible/need to hide about it . . . . . . :)

    Parent
    When it rains, it pours. (none / 0) (#14)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 10:22:39 PM EST
    In the wake of the revelation that the footballs used by the New England Patriots during last Sunday's AFC championship game were collectively suffering from a mysterious malady that caused 11 of them to lose 2 lbs. of pressure each, the guru at SharpFootballAnalysis.com is wondering aloud whether there's a correlation between deflated footballs and the Patriots' near-total inability of late to fumble the ball while on offense:

    "Yesterday I investigated whether or not the New England Patriots outperform expectations in bad weather.  I had several recommendations to look at home and road data, as opposed to just home data.  Mulling whether or not to undertake that further (time consuming) analysis, I watched this video. (See link.)

    "I immediately noticed something that cannot be overlooked: the issue with ball security and fumbles.  Then I remembered this remarkable fact: The 2014 Patriots were just the 3rd team in the last 25 years to never have lost a fumble at home!"

    [...]

    "The biggest difference between the Patriots and the other 2 teams who did it was that New England ran between 150 and 200 MORE plays this year than those teams did in the years they had zero home fumbles, making the Patriots stand alone in this unique statistic.

    "One can CLEARLY SEE the Patriots, visually, are off the chart.  There is no other team even close to being near to their rate of 187 offensive plays (passes + rushes + sacks) per fumble.  The league average is 105 plays / fumble.  Most teams are within 21 plays of that number."

    [...]

    "Could the Patriots be so good that they just defy the numbers?  As my friend theorized:  Perhaps they've invented a revolutionary in-house way to protect the ball, or perhaps they've intentionally stocked their skill positions with players who don't have a propensity to fumble.  Or perhaps still, they call plays which intentionally result in a lower percentage of fumbles.  Or maybe its just that they play with deflated footballs on offense.  It could be any combination of the above.

    "But regardless of what, specifically, is causing these numbers, the fact remains:  this is an extremely abnormal occurrence and is NOT simply random fluctuation."

    Because Sharp's not simply focusing on this year only, but also looking at the Patriots' non-fumbling performance going back to 2007, this "deflatables" scandal holds enormous potential to get very ugly for Coach Belichick and the Patriots, very quickly.

    Yikes.

    Was going to comment in the last (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:43:11 PM EST
    open thread, but had to work too much and it filled up. Scott let me remember some 'big thing' from last year when Sherman did some trash talk. I sort of remember some of that and when I googled I found this:

    "Any time you run a gimmick offense, you're a little bit afraid -- you're not sound in what you're doing in your base stuff," he said, according to Yahoo! Sports. "You're running this hurry-up stuff, and there's a reason it's not effective, because there are great defenses out there who will stuff it. We figured out early in the game what the calls were, what they were doing, and what the adjustments were. We started executing better, and that's why they got only six points in the second half."

    Wow, how dare he call Tom Brady out! (for cheating and other 'gimicks'.

    I have to say, my new explorations into being a sports fan are going to be fun fun fun.

    Parent

    And then there's this interesting (none / 0) (#64)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:59:35 PM EST
    Most athletes (none / 0) (#67)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:10:58 PM EST
    exchange their trash talk on the field. Unfortunately, Sherman decided to take his public, and, personal.

    But, then, another Seahawk (forgot his name) claims Gronkowski "ain't that good," so, there's that.

    lol

    Parent

    I am delighted my niece and her BF (none / 0) (#102)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 05:21:29 PM EST
    talked me into (pretty much forced me) to start watching pro football and to be a Seahawks fan. Football has been highly entertaining. Seems Sherman experienced some questionable kinds of plays last year and said so. It appears like he was criticized for that. I do like Marwhawn Lynch - like his face and his hat for sure!

    Parent
    2007 eh? (none / 0) (#16)
    by nycstray on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 10:42:15 PM EST
    Well I guess they had to think of something after Spygate . . .  :P

    When will they receive their asterisks, I wonder . . .

    Parent

    When? (none / 0) (#33)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:55:50 AM EST
    When proof replaces wishful speculation.

    Parent
    ... "wishful speculation" to active investigation. The odds are between slim and none that the Patriots' backfield and receiving corps are so superior at holding onto the football that they're fumbling at only a fraction of the rate experienced by every other team in the rest of the NFL.

    And there's certainly nothing speculative about the fact that the Patriots have now been caught deflating their game balls, in blatant violation of league rules. And given their penchant for ignoring rules in the past, they no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    TWO pounds? (none / 0) (#88)
    by toggle on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:04:42 PM EST
    Is that what all this is about, seriously? Two PSI? That's nothing.

    Parent
    Must be something if there are rules about (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:56:33 PM EST
    the range of pressure that's acceptable.

    This has less to do with PSI and more to do with gaining a competitive edge - however small one thinks it was - over an opponent.

    Parent

    No, it's not "nothing." (none / 0) (#131)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 03:24:12 AM EST
    The Patriots' footballs were inflated about 15% below league requirements. That makes the ball easier to grip, catch and hold, especially in inclement weather.

    Parent
    "easier to grip, catch, and hold..." (none / 0) (#149)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 10:50:05 AM EST
    Of course we can't have that, can we?  It would make too much sense.

    Pics of the highly clinical environment in which refs do their ball work.

    Parent

    This isn't rocket science. (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 02:55:24 PM EST
    We're talking about a 15% differential between what the NFL requires for footballs at game time, and what the Patriots were likely playing with. Honestly, the more shrill some of New England's enablers get, the sillier they sound.

    The Daily Beast's Michael Daly posted an article in which he lectures his readers about physics of air pressure and temperature Yet he can't explain how Sunday's temperature in Foxboro mysteriously only affected the air pressure in the balls on the Patriots' sideline, and not on the Colts' side of the field -- so he simply ignored that inconvenient fact.

    H.L. Mencken was right.

    Parent

    Have you seen that Bill Nye TSG has, ahem . . . . (none / 0) (#172)
    by nycstray on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 03:29:14 PM EST
    weighed in?

    Parent
    If, Donald, (none / 0) (#174)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 03:53:10 PM EST
    the Patriot balls were inflated to the lower end of the limit and Colts' balls to the upper end, the explanation holds.

    Clearly better specification and control of atmospheric conditions is necessary during filling, pressure testing, storage.  The link I posted showed refs doing the whole process in a bathroom sink.  Since nobody was obviously sweating in those photos, it tends to show that the starting temp wasn't unusually elevated, probably normal room temperature, 68-70 F.

    All this sturm und drang and the revealed ignorance of the fundamentals of physics simply confirms my long held suspicions.  The sport causes brain damage in more than the players.


    Parent

    I am not a big NFL fan (none / 0) (#93)
    by ragebot on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:13:54 PM EST
    But it is hard to ignore deflategate and the fallout.  I have seen blurbs that ticket prices for the super bowl are down.  Not sure of ad rates but if tv eyeballs are off the NFL will almost be forced to deal harshly with the Patriots

    Parent
    No idea what they usually go for (none / 0) (#103)
    by CoralGables on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 05:27:40 PM EST
    but right now the tickets on Stubhub go from $4,504.99 to $28,770.00. And if you want a parking pass that will cost you an additional $89.99.

    Must be a pretty strong demand to be getting those prices.

    Parent

    Parking is cheap there! (none / 0) (#104)
    by nycstray on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 05:35:20 PM EST
    Well, compared to SF!  :P

    Parent
    SkyMall is folding... (none / 0) (#17)
    by desertswine on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 11:26:25 PM EST
    So if you've been putting off buying that fish hotel or garden yeti, better do it right away.

    SkyMall is the only reason to put up (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:43:29 AM EST
    With the discomfort of flying in this country.  Let there be high speed rail or let there be death :)

    Parent
    LOL! (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Zorba on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:38:24 PM EST
    I feel much the same way about flying.  I like to look at the SkyMall and speculate, "Who buys this fancy, over-priced stuff?"

    Parent
    Me too (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 11:22:43 AM EST
    I feel like I'm observing another culture.  The SkyMall clan, a culture with very different priorities :). Who are these guys?  When will I meet one?

    Parent
    I did always used to wonder about (4.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Zorba on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 02:16:58 PM EST
    who the he!! bought this sh!t???
    Some of the stuff was even very attractive, and if someone gave me one of those for free, I would certainly accept it.  But buy it myself? No way, just too expensive.
    And some of the stuff was not only over-priced, but just plain bizarre.  For instance, I wouldn't want a garden Sasquatch or Zombie unless someone paid me a lot of money to display one.    ;-)

    Parent
    Last week I flew for the first time in (none / 0) (#70)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:45:32 PM EST
    10 years as part of a party of four. Our trip was booked through a travel agency and we all were classified as TSA Pre which eliminates much of the most irritating aspects of the security process. Don't know If we were given that designation because of the travel agency or because we were a group of mature Caucasian women. Anyway, it reduced the time and hassle of the boarding process.

    I'm not afraid of flying but I don't enjoy being confined to a small space for any length of time.

    Parent

    Johnny Football (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 06:05:25 AM EST
    Pretty daming article in ESPN.

    Not ready

    As a fan I can never comprehend how guys waste these types of opportunities and make bad choices that ruin or shorten their careers.

    You always tell yourself that if I was in that situation I'd do everything I could to be successful.

    especially when the team (none / 0) (#36)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:12:57 AM EST
    was willing to give you a four and a half million dollar signing bonus, on top of an eight and a half million dollar contract.

    I know that in the NFL that's not so much, but it would be more than enough for me.

    Parent

    Sometimes I think it has to do with (none / 0) (#49)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:30:32 AM EST
    Their personalities and how they got to the position in the first place.

    In order to be an elite athlete you have to be at some level cocky. You have to think that you're the best guy on the field or court no matter what even if it's not true. So these guys get to the NFL or the NBA and have the same attitude but reality is that everybody else is just as good or even better.

    That's when they have to decide are they going to be a pro, and do the extra work it takes to make their talent better or are they going to just keep doing what they've always done which is be cocky and just go out there and play.  

    More times than not when they do the latter it doesn't work out so good.  Throw on top the immaturity, drugs, money and women and you've got issues.


    Parent

    As a Titans fan I saw this firsthand (none / 0) (#50)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:32:53 AM EST
    Vince Young was Johnny football 10 years ago.

    He didn't do the work, he didn't put in the time, he spent money like a crazy man, and soon he was washed out.

    I'm worried we're about to see that all over again with Johnny football.

    Parent

    The thing about being "cocky" is (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:53:38 AM EST
    you better be able to back it up.

    Joe Namath was "cocky," but, you saw what he did with the Colts.

    Richard Sherman is "cocky," and, until someone shuts him up on the field, he has every right to his cockiness. (is that a word, lol?)

    Sports fans have a thing about that. Being "cocky" and a "flop" just doesn't cut it.

    Parent

    Sounds like this guy (none / 0) (#83)
    by nycstray on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:17:44 PM EST
    could have a problem in the drinking area . . . .

    Parent
    The problem with Manziel goes beyond ... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 03:41:32 PM EST
    ... the cocky attitude. I've always been of the opinion that he was overrated as a QB at Texas A&M, and that the great Aggie receiving corps he enjoyed at College Station never really got their due.

    Sure, Manziel could scramble like he was the second coming of Fran Tarkenton, but he also had a rather alarming propensity to just fling the ball downfield and then depend on those receivers to come back to it and bail him out, which they often did. Yet he got the press and the glory and the benefit of many doubts, while in comparison they toiled away in relative anonymity, working hard to make someone who was a good but otherwise hardly spectacular QB look awesome.

    With a Browns' offensive line that's average by NFL standards and nothing comparable to the skilled receivers he had at A&M, "Johnny Football's" weaknesses as a QB stand exposed.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    FINALLY, a comment I can agree with (none / 0) (#111)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:27:14 PM EST
    Now, not that some of these quarterbacks, Breeze, Manning, Brady, Romo, etc., aren't great quarterbacks, but, the quality of receivers has grown exponentially as the years go by. Watching some of the seemingly, physically impossible acrobatic catches these receivers make week in, and week out is, simply, breathtaking. How some of those mind-boggling catches, where they catch the ball four feet out of bounds, yet come down with their feet inbounds just seem physically impossible. And, now this thing with one handed catches, just WoW.

    I know it can't be done, but I wish there was some way to rate quarterbacks by taking the quality, and, performance of their receivers into account. I mean, a quarterback can make a perfect throw, and hit his receivers in the hands with the ball, if the receivers drops it, the quarterback is nailed with an incomplete pass. And, yet, if the QB throws a "duck" that only Spiderman could catch, yet his receiver manages to come down with it, the QB is credited with a completion.

    In all reality, some of these top rated QB's should really share their gargantuan salaries with their receiver corps as it's them (they?) that contribute so much to their stats.    

    Parent

    One handed catches aren't new . . . (none / 0) (#112)
    by nycstray on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 08:32:46 PM EST
    remember the stick um days?  :P

    Parent
    For you Warrior fans (none / 0) (#26)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 07:40:59 AM EST
    These are some happy days.

    Clay Thompson set the NBA record for pts in a qtr with 37 last night in the 3rd.

    This is how he did it.

    Amazing

    The Warriors are my NBA team (none / 0) (#87)
    by McBain on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:04:15 PM EST
    I watched that game on TV last night.  I've never seen anything quite like that. I saw Sleepy Floyd score 29 in a playoff quarter but Thompson did it with 3 point shots.  

    Parent
    Well enjoy it (none / 0) (#106)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 07:21:52 PM EST
    Those two guards make watching in a minute game awesome every night.

    Can you believe how good a job Kerr has done coming in and taking over for what was already a pretty darn good team?

    I still think Jackson got a raw deal but you can't deny the job Kerr has done.

    Enjoy the season.  I'd watch more but it's onto too late for me here in Indiana.

    Parent

    I agree about Kerr and Jackson (none / 0) (#119)
    by McBain on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:48:21 PM EST
    Interesting thing about Klay Thompson's performance.  I remember a study, from Stanford I believe, that said, statistically, there's no such thing as a hot shooter.  Meaning, you can't look up stats and show that because someone made a few shots in a row, he was more likely to make his next shot.

    Parent
    Bull Hockey (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:48:48 AM EST
    I was an excellent shooter in HS and walked on at Vanderbilt in college to play basketball.

    I've been hot like that before.  Obviously not on that level but in a game my senior year of HS I scored 48 points on 20-24 FG shots and was 8-8 from the FT line.  I did not shoot a single 3 pointer but made shots from uner the basket out to 18-20 feet.  Mostly a 15ft baseline shot that I kept getting because the opposing team stuck with a zone and that was the weak spot.

    When you are hot your confidence and mind are in perfect harmony.  If compare it to a runners high.

    You don't think about your shot motion, setting your feet, squaring your shoulders to the hoop or all the things a good shooter works on and focuses on in practice.

    That first shot or two goes down and you feel like it was effortless, the next two go down just as easy and you tell your teammates to get you the ball because tonight is your night.  Then your teammates start showing signs that they sense it and will get you the ball and the opponent starts trying to be more aggressive with you and the confidence continues to build and each shot keeps falling and the ones that do miss do so just barely and feel as good as the rest.

    What I think the statistics show is that kind of mental state is random and impossible to sustain.   Good shooters are good shooters because they've got both talent and work tirelessly on the fundamentals of their jump shot.  For a good shooter they are closer to that state more often but again it's just not achievable on a nightly basis.  You can't shoot 80-90% from the field for very long.  

    But every once and a while it all comes together and you get a game like Clay had or I had or Christian Lattner had against UK when he didn't miss a shot from the floor or the line including the iconic game winner.

    Statistics be dammed.  :)

    Parent

    I'm somewhat of a Moneyball guy (none / 0) (#181)
    by McBain on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 07:08:51 PM EST
    not just because I'm an A's fan but because I believe a lot of sports strategy is based on unproven tradition..... bunting in baseball, punting in football, taking out a player with 2 fouls in the first half in basketball...

    What I think the Stanford study showed, keep in mind I never actually read it, was you can't prove there's such thing as a hot shooter.  Anyone who's played the game knows, sometimes you feel it and sometimes you don't.

    Parent

    I'm so old (none / 0) (#144)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 09:53:09 AM EST
    I remember back when Nate Thurmond got 18 rebounds in one quarter and a quadruple double in one game..

    Then management refused to give Rick Barry a raise and things went kinda south..

    Parent

    Getting the lawyers involved (none / 0) (#39)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:21:20 AM EST
    will now guarantee that the investigation will drag out past the SuperBowl just as the NFL hoped:

    NFL adds all-pro lawyer to inquiry into Patriots

    They know it was the Brady Bunch that did it but every effort will now be made to find a way to blame it on some inanimate object like a rogue needle or malfunctioning air gauge as quiet negotiations with the other owners take place to decide on the next step.  

    Bill Maher really went off on the early (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 10:27:46 AM EST
    Box office profits of American Sniper.  He pointed out something left out of all war movie talk. It isn't the whole story, certain facts and elements have been withheld for entertainment purposes I deduce.  But many Americans act as though the movies are documentaries.  

    The movie American Sniper is a fictional work, as is Zero Dark Thirty, and Lone Survivor.  I know Mark Walberg got very into telling you that the cast trained with SEALs and they made SEAL moves and all that good stuff, but Lone Survivor is a work of fiction too.  You don't know the whole story.  And that is purely for entertainment purposes.

    The Bill Maher (none / 0) (#63)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:58:32 PM EST
    Show last night was a mess.   Bill was off his game, but worse, was the panel's inability to counter the neocon, right winger, Bret Stephens.  Stephens was permitted to dominate the discussions, rolling his eyes, when either Howard Dean or Nia Malika (WaPo) attempted to get a word in edgewise.

    Bill did his best, but it was not enough, to provide the refutation Stephen's wacko talking points deserved.  Stephen's climate change posits were absurd, even by James Inhofe standards.   For example, equating Galileo's heliocentric solar system's eventual ascension over the Catholic Church's theology of the day to what is likely to someday valid his position.

     And, all the scientists cited by Stephens were political scientists or economists, not physicists or hard scientists.    Howard Dean may not be a climate scientist, but as a physician, he should have been able to introduce Stephens to the idea of evidence and the scientific method.

    The redeeming factor in the show was the interview with James Fallows, and the abbreviated panel discussion.  I like Bill Maher, and anyone can have an off night--last night was his turn.

    Parent

    On television, (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:48:34 PM EST
    the Hot Air Method trumps the Scientific Method.

    Parent
    Howard Dean was just stunned that (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 01:32:26 PM EST
    Anyone could believe his own horse$hit with such conviction.  He just kept laughing in amused shock.  I didn't think Stephens won the debate, he wasn't countered well though either.  They needed you up there.

    Parent
    Howard Dean didn't look so good himself (none / 0) (#94)
    by McBain on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:17:32 PM EST
    He's still refusing to call the Charlie Hebdo attackers Muslims. Maher took Dean to task for that.

    Parent
    Blah blah blah (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:42:28 PM EST
    Our household split on the issue somewhat.  I think Dean is correct, calling them Islamic anything empowers them with implied support.  I am concerned though with the numbers of moderate Muslims who believe that death is an appropriate punishment for anyone leaving the faith along with some other inhumane beliefs that a majority of moderate Muslims uphold.  I think those evolutions empower extremists who attach themselves to Islam.  I think discussing the toxic elements of the faith is important at this juncture.

    My spouse agrees 100% with Dean.  All empowerment through calling them anything Islamic needs to end.  So, the Independent sometimes right leaning soldier agrees completely with Dean.  Dean looked fine.

    Parent

    Dean's stance (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 10:59:35 AM EST
    reminds me of that moment when Bush spokeman Ari Fleisher tried to rebrand suicide bombers as homicide bombers.  Sounds good, but changes nothing.

    Parent
    Hard to say (none / 0) (#157)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 11:41:39 AM EST
    Dean makes a valid point.  I think the more the world has the discussion about this, the more working connections to Islam terrorists will lose.

    Parent
    When we don't like the information (none / 0) (#74)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 02:25:18 PM EST
    We decide the people presenting it aren't qualified.

    That is why any debate about AGW is pointless these days.  When evidence that conflicts with the group think is presented just call them hacks for oil, non "climate" scientists and move on.

    Pretty easy to win a debate when you don't have to have one.

    Haven't caught the episode yet.  Looking forward to it.


    Parent

    Not having caught (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 02:46:57 PM EST
    the episode does not seem to have impacted your assessment of criticisms.  Do watch the show so as to confirm your a priori.

    Parent
    Or, when the people presenting ... (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Yman on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:06:22 PM EST
    ... the evidence are political hacks with no scientific studies to stand on, we point it out because they're not credible.

    I'd be more than happy to debate a denier who would put up actual scientific studies, rather than some opinion piece from another non-expert.  The problem is, that's all you deniers have got, so when confronted with actual, peer-reviewed scientific studies you put your fingers in your ears and chant "That's not science!  That's not science", as if you know better than thousands of actual scientists and every scientific organization.

    It's delusional.

    Parent

    Here, I'll get you started (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Yman on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:21:24 PM EST
    Here's a link to a meta-analysis of the peer-reviewed scientific studies on climate change in 2013.  The two studies which rejected anthropogenic global warming should get you started.  When you're done with those 2 ...

    ... we can discuss the other 10,885.

    Parent

    Group think (none / 0) (#108)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 07:41:27 PM EST
    Here is a peer reviewed study showing the insular snd exclusive nature of the "experts" on AGW science.

    Organization Studies

    What I find so amusing about this debate is those putting forth the theory of AGW get to decide who are qualified to discuss the findings.  

    If you don't fall in line then you're either a shill for big oil or you're not qualified because you're not a certain kind of scientist.    And in some cases even if you were a former believer and a climate scientist your opinion still doesn't count.

    Nonetheless AGW is passed a debate worth having.  You're either a believer or you're not. There is no convincing one to be the other.  

    I just object to being called a knuckle dragger or a non scientific person because I don't accept the theory based on "consensus."  

    Parent

    What I find amusing (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Yman on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:40:35 PM EST
    ... is that the deniers happily embrace every Joe Six-pack who has no credentials or published studies in climatology, then demand that their data-free opinions be given equal weight.

    Nonetheless AGW is passed a debate worth having.  You're either a believer or you're not. There is no convincing one to be the other.  

    I just object to being called a knuckle dragger or a non scientific person because I don't accept the theory based on "consensus."

    It's not just that 97% of the experts recognize MMGW, it's the overwhelming weight of the data, studies and evidence.  You don't have to accept it based on consensus - read the thousands of studies that support it.  Oh, that's right - you choose to ignore those studies in favor of a complete lack of evidence because you don't like the conclusions.  It's just "group think".

    Pffftttt ...

    BTW - Your "study" is not a substantive study denying climate change.  (I thought you'd at least be able to come up with one).  It is a sociological study based on a survey not of climatologists, but of "professional experts in petroleum and related industries" (i.e geologists, engineers, etc.)  So what you've established is that a sizeable percentage (@50%) of oil company "experts" who are not remotely qualified in climatology deny MMGW, while @ 1/3 acknowledge it and another 17% say we don't know.

    Heh.

    Parent

    I didn't say it was (none / 0) (#128)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 01:03:01 AM EST
    I said it was a study on group think and the exclusion of opposing views by the AGW community.

    Also I've linked to the ridiculousness of the 97% stat too many times to count.

    But as with the subject at hand since you don't approve  of the sources you discount my point and debate stops.

    As I'll say again this is an article of faith for you and opposing views need not be debated just discredited.

    Double heh

    Parent

    The difference (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Yman on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 07:14:57 AM EST
    I don't approve or the sources (or in this case, the source), because their not experts.  If this was a courtroom, they wouldn't be allowed to testify because of that very fact.  Not to mention the silly attempt to cite a group of geologists and oil engineers' opinions on not just your BS "group think" claim but also the substantive position of MMGW ... too funny.  What's next?  Cite the gun company engineers on crime/gun control?

    BTW - The 97% claim is accurate.  Your single link to an opinion piece by a Fox News commentator is funny, though.  I'd be happy to provide several links to several surveys which confirm it, but then again ... you'd just claim they aren't surveys because you don't like the facts, like your denial of actual science and data.

    Parent

    It's accurate in a way (none / 0) (#135)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 08:16:36 AM EST
    Because again it's a poll of people that already believe in it in the first place.

    That's the point of the links that I keep sending you that if you ask a bunch of people that believe in God is there a God 97% are going to say yes.

    I don't think AGW is comparable to other scientific facts like gravity and the law of inertia.  Do you?

    So I remain a skeptic but I also realize that I could be wrong.

    The real question honestly is what do we do about it.  That is a debate worth having.  

    And on that point I am actually very reasonable because we need to be more efficient anyway for environmental and economic reasons because the fuel won't last forever.

    Heh

    Parent

    It's a poll of people ... (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Yman on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 08:34:55 AM EST
    ... who actually know what they're talking about, who know the science and the data and the thousands of studies behind it and who have reached their conclusions based on the that, not some baseless, religious belief.  This is yet another, silly wingnut talking point - comparing scientists and their conclusions based on data/science to religious adherents.  It's funny, because proponents of MMGW have literally thousands of peer-reviewed studies and data to support their conclusions, while it's the deniers who have none and draw their conclusions based on wishful thinking and their own, unsupported "faith".

    But it's funny how you shift positions.  First, the data about the 97% scientific consensus isn't accurate.  Then it is, but only because it's asking people who have already drawn their conclusions.  Both silly claims are (as always) entirely unsupported by actual evidence, just like the "group think" accusation.

    A debate really isn't worth having until the deniers learn basic logic and bring some actual evidence to the table.

    Parent

    Truth (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 07:21:33 AM EST
    is the major cause of group think. A group of professionals gathering around a shared reality is really the only way institutions work.
    Of course this can dangerous where facts are malleable such as in politics or even worse the media. Science can not fall into a conventional wisdom trap as the facts are unchangeable and there are certain unvarying laws. Certainly scientific studies and papers often echo the 'conventional wisdom" in the field but they must constantly prove themselves. All science is debatable, but if you were to publish using bs data and/or flawed scientific reasoning you would get called out by both sides.

    You want to assign the widespread acceptance of AGW among climatologists as some kind of misguided groupthink when Occam's razor would suggest that its the scientific community coalescing around an obvious truth.

    Parent

    Guilty as charged (none / 0) (#139)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 09:12:38 AM EST
    Got a little carried away taking a debating position.  I start sounding like a kook when I indicate there may be some sort of grand conspiracy to push AGW on the public.  Point taken.

    However I do think you can't deny that some proponents of AGW react with an attack mentality as opposed to a  scientific mentality when their findings and results are questioned.  

    In addition I just don't feel it's fair for the skeptics like me or even slight doubters to be branded as shills for big oil, knuckle draggers etc...  There are very smart and qualified people who are skeptical of parts of the theory versus thinking it's a total scam. In fact most of what we would call skeptics fit into the category of  questioning parts of AGW.

    Case in point. Here's a link of a pro AGW journalist who has been criticized heavily and unfairly because he simply questioned some of the Science agreed-upon by the consensus.

    I think this type of mentality is wrong and a result of frustration because the community that supports action on AGW is not getting the results they feel they should from out world leaders. So in order to speed things along they are over reacting to skeptics with over-the-top rhetoric and creating a scientific community and is insular and not open to debate.

    In truth the planet is getting warmer (not as fst as predicted and slightly if at all the past 18 years) so the debate should be about solutions and the science should be open to criticism as we work our way through all this.

    As I've said before I'm all for energy efficiency and finding new forms of energy. It's just as a libertarian I'm fearful of politicians picking and choosing the science they like the best to justify big and wasteful investments of tax dollars in energy policies that do nothing for a GW and simply put tax dollars in the hands of well-connected companies.

    Also while claiming that skeptics are funded by big oil and energy companies the proponents of AGW ignore the reality that their research is funded by billions of dollars from governments all over the world.  If you want to get a grant in the field of climate you are a very unlikely to get one if you indicate that you're a skeptic or that you have any doubt about the consensus. This doesn't seem right to me and again indicates an insular community.

    Good post.

    Parent

    you also will have (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:29:24 PM EST
    more difficulty getting a grant if you say you're going to use it to track Big Foot or to locate the remnants of Noah's Ark on Ararat..

    This is starting to remind me somewhat of the oft-heard (from the Right) lament about colleges not hiring enough conservative professors..because they, allegedly, think "outside the box"

    Parent

    While colleges are (none / 0) (#193)
    by Slado on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 05:54:33 AM EST
    Predominantly liberal it's not their fault.

    If conservatives want to have more conservative thought on campus they should become professors.

    Instead they just sit back and complain.  

    Same situation with Hollywood.  However we are starting to see just a few more non lefty movies sneak out and do well so that's may be changing just a tad.

    Parent

    In an ideal world (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 02:22:03 PM EST
    good science would get the cash bad science would get stiffed. We all know that politics, prejudices and  preferred narratives interfere with the ideal. We all fall into that trap occasionally.

    I don't even come close to knowing how research grants are offered, but I have seen no evidence of this discrimination against skeptics that you speak of. I realize that governments can and do put a heavy thumb on the scales to pursue an agenda, but in this case I fail to see any plausible motive.

    the proponents of AGW ignore the reality that their research is funded by billions of dollars from governments all over the world

    You seem to infer that there is a world wide multi-billion propaganda campaign to promote AGW.
    I mean it's a rather a Byzantine way to stick it to the fossil fuel industry or their consumers for that matter.

    Parent

    Such conspiracies are impossible (none / 0) (#190)
    by Slado on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 05:17:08 AM EST
    That many people can't organize to do anything.

    I would say it's more like a fad or gold rush.   The theory has merit, it's exciting new science, there's the underlying motive of saving the world, it fits the political motives of some so you now have the majority of people who study this phenomenon supporting AGW.

    I take issue with advocates and some within the scientific community using the "consensus" argument to attack skeptics and even lukewarmers because it keeps the advocates of AGW from getting the policies they support implemented as fast as they'd like.

    I maintain that within the scientific community and even the pro AGW scientific community there is a much wider range of opinion on exactly how much is man made vs natural and what other factors outside our control affect global temperatures.

    But as my link to the Lukewarmer shows such talk is often quickly discounted not with science but with personal attacks.

    To me that's an issue and a sign that the science isn't settled.

    Parent

    LINK (none / 0) (#142)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 09:26:33 AM EST
    Here is a better link. The other link required a subscription.

    My life as a Lukewarmer

    Parent

    it works both ways (none / 0) (#198)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 07:38:14 AM EST
    and science
    wins

    Parent
    Yes it does (none / 0) (#200)
    by Slado on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 09:43:26 AM EST
    Midevil warming period warmer then today

    Science

    Parent

    It was really hard to watch (none / 0) (#195)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 06:14:49 AM EST
    I hate when they just let the GOP drone talker just go on and one. Dean was not helpful - he just came across as political correctness personified. He is getting very predictable himself.

    One of those episodes that make me wonder why I watch that show...except, Bill Burr was really funny, not just going along with whatever Bill wanted him to say were their common dealings with he twitterverse.

    Parent

    It was a good movie (none / 0) (#92)
    by McBain on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:13:16 PM EST
    I'm a little tired of navy seal stories but this one was well done. It seems like anti war people are upset this movie is doing so well at the box office.

    Parent
    The film was about Chris Kyle ... (none / 0) (#130)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 03:10:20 AM EST
    ... and those who had to serve multiple tours in Iraq. It's their story, not ours, and it's certainly not about the politics of the Iraq War. If I can set aside my own political persuasion to see "Sniper," then others can, too. People on both sides really need to give it a rest already, and stop projecting their personal agendas onto this film.

    Parent
    Donald, why do you keep insisting that (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 09:12:23 AM EST
    your way is the only way, and that we all have to go "blank slate" when we watch movies and TV so we can watch the way you think we should?

    Here's a thought, Donald: American Sniper is based on Chris Kyle's book, is it not?  Did he have a personal agenda, a perspective on his experience?  What about Eastwood - did he have a personal agenda, a reaction to the book?  I guess my point is that you have an author, a screenplay writer and a director who all brought their own perspective and bias and agenda to a movie, but you've decreed that we - the viewers - are supposed to pretend we don't have a thought one way or the other and must just accept whatever we see.  

    Because that's what you do? Why do we have to do that?  Why do you always have to tell us how we're supposed to watch, listen or read?  Really, I just don't get why you keep harping on this, and why you keep getting yourself all wound up over it.

    Do people the courtesy and respect of having their own experiences, and keep your own mind open enough to consider that what others see and how they interpret it can possibly give you something to think about.

    Parent

    I agree with Donald (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 09:22:23 AM EST
    If you're going to go to a controversial movie where you might not agree with the subject matter it is awfully helpful to do it with a blank slate.

    For me I have to do that when I watch Michael Moore films.  If I go into the film thinking this guys a crazy Commie with an agenda to push and I'm not going to be very open to his ideas and his points.  

    Nobody can be wrong about everything. So if you go in with an open mind you're much more likely to pick out the rings of truth and the facts that will challenge your opinion if you do so with a blank slate.

    Another example is why Slado continues to blog on the site. If I wanted to hear my own opinions talked back to me there are tons of different blogs I can go to and enjoy myself talking back to myself.

    But I'd much rather read posts from people that have a totally different perspective than me and learn things that I would otherwise not learn and challenge my positions as they become more mature from experiencing a different point of view.

    All that being said you don't have to do it,  you can do whatever you want.

     Just seems like that advice to me.

    Parent

    But I think Donald's making an (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 09:41:36 AM EST
    assumption that anyone whose review of the film isn't in line with what Eastwood said his intention was could not possibly have watched it with an open mind - and I don't think that's a fair assumption.

    People are going to take from movies, TV and books what they will, and it's okay for what they take to be in conflict with what others have taken from them.

    I'm not a movie critic, and neither are most of the people watching the movies; I don't watch with the intent to deconstruct it later - most of the time, I just want to be entertained!  Sure, sometimes it makes me think, sometimes it affects me more, or in a way I didn't expect.  Can't I  just have that experience without being told it was right or wrong by someone who, when all is said and done, is just another person who saw the movie and has thoughts about it?

    Parent

    A "blank slate" (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 10:18:00 AM EST
    and "an open mind" doesn't mean you suspend all critical-analytical thinking and forget everything you've learned in life up to that point.

    Every book, film, art work, tv production, news report, etc is ALWAYS "about" the subject matter AND the film maker, author, editorial board..

    That's just the reality.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#148)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 10:42:47 AM EST
    When I speak of an open mind I mean an open mind in terms of being able to accept the premise of the movie at first and then see where it goes from there.

    This is something we conservatives/libertarians have to do a lot of when we go to the movies.  :)

    Parent

    Just close your eyes (none / 0) (#150)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 10:54:27 AM EST
    and pretend every movie is The Fountainhead..

    Like the way my wife sometimes pretends I'm Johnny Depp. ;-)

    Parent

    Point taken (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Slado on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 10:35:15 AM EST
    And you are correct you can have an open mind and still come to the same conclusions.

    If I could get out of this damn bed I'd be at the movies watching it. Contemplating trying to steal it on the Internet but I'm really against that.

    Parent

    Keeping an open mind (none / 0) (#145)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 10:15:17 AM EST
    is fine, as long as it isn't so open that ones' brains doesn't fall,out in the process.

    The real-life AS claimed to have killed people in the wake of Katrina, and killed a couple of people in TX with no repercussions.  Funny how those 'episodes' didn't make it into the movie.

    As G.K. Chesterton said of H.G. Wells, Mr Eastwood is a born storyteller who has sold his birthright for a pot of message.

    Parent

    Nobody's telling you what to think, Anne. (none / 0) (#173)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 03:41:13 PM EST
    But there's a big difference between critiquing a film, and expressing a political opinion.

    The comments I've been seeing here in these threads are not reviews of Clint Eastwood's film. Rather, they've often been direct reflections of the writer's personal opinions about the folly of the Iraq War, opinions which I otherwise generally share. As far as I can tell from the discussions thus far, only one other person here at TL besides me has said that he / she has actually seen the movie.

    A few of the more robust condemnations of the film's content thus far have been further offered by people -- and not just here at TL, BTW -- who've also made it perfectly clear that they have no intention whatsoever of seeing it. That's not a film critique or review. Rather, that's the active support / pursuit of one's own personal political agenda.

    To that effect, I'm simply urging people to first go out and see "American Sniper," BEFORE they proceed to tell everyone what they think about it -- not vice versa.

    FWIW, here's what the director himself has to say about his intent.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Chiming in .... (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by christinep on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 11:36:28 AM EST
    Donald: For some reason, I've fallen away from my younger practice of seeing movies routinely.  Yet, I do read reviews and listen to friends' reactions to various movies ... and, here, I tend to read your film commentaries because they have a thoroughness and/or evidence an appreciation of film-making/acting as an art.

    Now, for the "but" part: Occasionally, your movie analysis and passion seem didactic.  There can be a surely-everyone-should-see-it-as-I-do quality then. Example: "Sniper."

    Chiming out....

    Parent

    I think I have to sit this one out (none / 0) (#158)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 11:55:41 AM EST
    And see it on Netflix :). I don't want to be another member of the sniper fan club.  It is a job in the military, it is not a way of life, it is not a state of being.

    The movie has paid for itself and then some.  I will see it later.

    Parent

    MT, as I see it, (5.00 / 3) (#171)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 03:24:39 PM EST
    Kyle turned into a monster, but he had as little choice as any of his comrades.  None of the lofty sounding b/s and measured responses peddled by the policy wonks of werhmacht washington means a g/d thing to soldiers getting shot at.  Staying alive by any means necessary is what they did.  What else is there?

    If you don't want $hi$ like this happening, you don't commit the military.  Period.  

    Last I heard, the architect of this $hit$torm, Dubya W. Dumbf***, was painting doggie pictures.

    I voted for George 'cause he's the kinda guy I'd like to paint a doggie picture with...


    Parent

    I'm just urging people to first see ... (none / 0) (#175)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 04:03:13 PM EST
    ... "American Sniper" before they deign to comment on its content and the director's intent. That's all. Honestly, I think some people here just enjoy fighting old battles over Iraq, etc., and that's fine.

    But Eastwood's film is first and foremost about the soldiers who fought in Iraq, and not about the war's underlying politics. If people want to actively engage me regarding the movie's subject matter, then they should please do me the courtesy of actually seeing it first.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I read the script, Donald, including every (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 05:03:42 PM EST
    "di** in the dirt" cliche.

    Context is everything.  You want to remove it from its misbegotten context.  I see no point in doing so.  Simple as that.

    Parent

    What's the old Marine saying? (none / 0) (#179)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 06:50:13 PM EST
    "Is this the hill you want to die on?"


    Parent
    It isn't about the average soldier though (5.00 / 4) (#185)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 08:00:35 PM EST
    Donald.  That's who we need to be paying attention to.  This is another film loosely based on someone who enjoyed elite status and who received opportunities other ex soldiers can only dream of.  My spouse went into all this older so he wasn't completely destroyed and he will retire out with a great retirement.  So will my brother-in-law.  They earned it sure, but they are other elite.

    I think the film has merit if it further instructs the public somewhat on how it is for soldiers who returned home from Iraq.  But Chris Kyle isn't not a good representation of the soldiers that fought in Iraq.  He came an elite, and that cultural status seems to have successfully masked some very troubling behavior and accounts he gave to others.  It is very disturbing Donald that he cooked up that Superdome Katrina story.  And today I learned of the crazy Jesse Ventura tale.

    It really isn't representative of the lost and abandoned young people who came home from Iraq and continue to struggle.  That disturbs me too.  This is the tale America wants to visit when it thinks about its new Vets but their reality is far less glamorous, and no book deals with attached ghost writers.

    Parent

    Sorry for typos (none / 0) (#186)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 08:04:05 PM EST
    Will I ever embrace proof reading?  Sorry.  It is an important topic.

    Parent
    I had the advantage of ignorance (none / 0) (#180)
    by McBain on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 06:52:20 PM EST
    I didn't know AS was based on true story. I didn't even know who Chris Kyle was.  What I saw, was a well made film not patriotic propaganda. Not everything in the movie showed Kyle and his fellow soldiers as heros.  

    It bugs me a little bit that when people critique the film, they're usually critiquing Chris Kyle the person, the military, and the Bush administration. I haven't heard much critique of the actual film making.  Did people like Bradley Cooper's acting, Clint Eastwood's directing, the cinematography?  Why aren't we talking about those things? Probably because most of the "critics" haven't seen the film.

    Parent

    Why did you see it? (none / 0) (#183)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 07:41:53 PM EST
    I wanted to see a movie and heard it was good (none / 0) (#189)
    by McBain on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 08:50:00 PM EST
    I knew it was a Clint Eastwood film but I don't really have a strong opinion of his work.  I saw it right before I saw Black Hat which was a film I was looking forward to.

    Parent
    I met this sort of boilermaker thing (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 12:03:25 PM EST
    At Dave and Busters last weekend that's pretty yummy.  I don't like whiskey...bleh.  Someone at our table ordered a drink though and offered me a sip.  It was an Angry Orchard draft with a shot of Fireball Whiskey in it.  It was good.  Because I liked it it became mine, it's orderer did not like it, clever trick :)

    Dave and Busters calls the drink Angry Balls, awful name. I did buy some Angry Orchard last night and some Fireball Whiskey.  The last bottle of whiskey in this house lived here for 13 yrs.

    DNA "proved" he didn't do it? (none / 0) (#91)
    by toggle on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:09:04 PM EST
    Often these claims are made, but it's very hard for DNA to "exonerate" someone from a murder. Googling this case I haven't found any real information about its underlying facts, nor any kind of written decision from the panel.

    I wonder what the evidence was, exactly, and what standard of persuasion was required for the panel to release the guy.

    Patriot footballs were victims of (none / 0) (#95)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:20:38 PM EST
    Climate Change -- according to Belichick today:

    Belichick Says Patriots Followed Rules 'To The Letter'

    In the Patriots' simulation, officials were asked to inflate the balls to 12.5 pounds -- But "once the footballs were on the field over an extended period of time," they had lost 1.5 pounds of pressure, he added.

    He blamed the weight loss as being a "function of the atmospheric conditions."

    Belichick said that he was "not a scientist" or an "expert in footballs"

    or an expert in the ball warming  machines on the field or locker room warming or global warming  for that matter.

    Nothing to see here . . . (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by nycstray on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:25:26 PM EST
    The Pats have investigated themselves . . . and they are innocent according to said investigation!  :P

    I think it would have been much more fun if Beli just got up there and said "Not our fault, we have magical balls."

    Parent

    I think the magic is in the Colts' balls... (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:50:39 PM EST
    they didn't react to the change in temperature the way Belichick says the Pats' balls did.

    Also, it's good to remember that the guy claiming to have followed the rules to the letter is the same one who parsed the videotaping rule as meaning they just couldn't use the tapes "that day."

    If they think all of this is bad now, Tuesday is Media Day at the Super Bowl; that should be fun, eh?

    Parent

    I must say . . . (none / 0) (#101)
    by nycstray on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 05:15:04 PM EST
    it is def more fun than listening to Sherman trash talk all week :D Bring on media day!

    Parent
    And yet, (none / 0) (#114)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:02:44 PM EST
    the refs, who are the experts and arbiters of these things, and handle the ball on every play, didn't notice a thing. And, the Colt who intercepted a Brady pass, admittedly, didn't notice a thing either.

    As to the Colts, do you know how, where, and what procedures they use when they have possession of their footballs? Of course not.

    And, did you know that this issue is of such great importance that the refs don't always use calibrated gauges to test the balls, but, simply "squeeze, or, feel" the footballs to see if they're o,k? The very same refs who handle the ball on every play, and noticed n o t h I n g.

    All these things is why they're having an investigation. So, why isn't that good enough for anyone here?

    Parent

    But it was noticed - that's why the (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:50:06 PM EST
    refs checked the balls at halftime; they didn't just decide out of the blue to check them.

    And for what it's worth, I've read refs saying that it's not that they didn't notice, it's that there's so much else going on that they have to stay on top of that pretty much all they're doing is making sure the ball has the mark on it that the head ref put on it at the beginning of the game.

    But look, are you really trying to tell us that as long as no one notices this or any other infraction that goes to the heart of the competition that, hey, no big deal?

    So far, I've heard that it didn't matter because no one noticed, that it didn't matter because the Pats could have been throwing watermelons and they'd still have beaten the Colts, that it didn't matter because the QBs should be able to play with the footballs to the specifications they prefer.

    Even Belichick, responding to a question about Spygate, summed up how he feels about that controversy by saying that, what, it was okay for 80,000 people in the stands to see the other team's signals, but he couldn't tape it?  What does that tell you about Belichick's dedication to playing the game fairly?  

    And after you listen to or read Belichick's long and involved description of the testing the Patriots did on their own in the last week, and the emphasis on what changes in temperature can do to the pressure, maybe you should wonder why he failed to mention that the Patriots' balls were the only ones that seemed to be affected, which - call me crazy - would seem to eliminate the air temperature as the reason the balls were underinflated.

    I think this was Brady.  I think Belichick's beside himself that his career is flashing in front of his eyes, and he's going out of his way to try to get people to STFU about the whole thing.

    These are enormously talented athletes and coaches who don't need to cheat, so if they did, why did they do it - again?  Because they are arrogant, because they want to go out on top, because they can.  Because they didn't think anyone would notice.

    Just do me a favor and make up your mind whether you want the sport to be played fairly, or if you're okay with cheating as long as no one gets caught, or no one notices.

     

    Parent

    Cheer for the Pats (none / 0) (#116)
    by nycstray on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 09:42:11 PM EST
    knock yourself out. It's your right, but ya may want to drop that NY in front of your name, lol!~  :P

    Since you are SO adamant about this issue, could you please defend how  Brady can carefully pick out his balls (it seems very important to him before the game), but not notice or give a crap once the game has started? Or why he once commented he liked it when one of the players spiked the ball (presumably during the game) because it lowered the pressure/made it easier to grip?

    Parent

    investigation (none / 0) (#121)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 11:10:39 PM EST
    All these things is why they're having an investigation. So, why isn't that good enough for anyone here?

    Because Belichick and Brady keep coming to the microphone and saying the most ridiculous things that make us all laugh.

    Today if we believe Belichick we have to believe that the cold weather in Foxborough only affects Patriot footballs, not Colt footballs, and only 11 of the 12 balls that Brady picks out.

    There's got to be magic in that weather up there I tell ya that only affects half the field at a time.

    Either that or some little leprechaun with a needle inhabits that Patriot football bin.

    Parent

    Beli (none / 0) (#98)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 04:34:35 PM EST
    Belichick and the Brady Bunch have 8 more days of these forced media interviews. It's going to be hell for them and they can't just walk away.

    What Belichick essentially said today is that the NFL investigators are a bunch of morons who don't know how to measure ball pressure.

    Parent

    And, just to keep it interesting (none / 0) (#197)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 07:29:16 AM EST
    Former Patriot Aaron Hernandez is also back in the news as jury selection starts this week in his trial for murder.  Patriot news everywhere!

    Parent
    Anyone who grew up... (none / 0) (#122)
    by desertswine on Sat Jan 24, 2015 at 11:20:00 PM EST
    in the NYC area knows who this guy was.  He was a staple of local tv..  Joe Franklin dies at 88.

    WOR, WNEW, & WPIX defined cable movie (none / 0) (#129)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 02:16:14 AM EST
    channels when I was a kid, stuck in the Pennsylvania hinterlands.  Joe's low key talk show came along for the ride, revealing a New York City teeming with ancient vaudevillians, 3rd bananas, second billings, and show biz has-beens, all of whom were Joe's honored guests.  A final fifteen minutes of fame.  Where the guests went after the Joe Franklin show, because he seemed to be the only man left who cared about their careers, I still wonder.

    Parent
    I find it interesting on TL (none / 0) (#125)
    by ZtoA on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:25:09 AM EST
    that there is a sort of prejudice to ignore the 'great North West'. The NW is actually a part of the USofA you know. We supply y'all with lots of wine,  high end spirits, lumber, food, paper and wood products - not to mention Intel, Microsoft and Nike (and many more).  "I'm sorry I tend to not listen to you" But y'all should. the great NW is actually a part of the USA and we can also go into 'beast mode'. I like art, and sport ( as I have recently discovered) is art.  for some reason I can't link at the moment (stupid computer), but simply google 'marshawn lynch beast mode' and you'll see some commentary.

    I lived in Seattle for five years ... (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 03:32:48 AM EST
    ... while attending UW. I certainly don't ignore the Pacific Northwest. The entire Puget Sound region is awesome.

    Parent
    Where is this coming from? (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 09:14:25 AM EST
    It seems like a combination of a non sequitur and trying to pick a fight.

    Parent
    Opining is us! (none / 0) (#184)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 07:45:33 PM EST
    I had no idea I was talking trash! (none / 0) (#187)
    by ZtoA on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 08:10:06 PM EST
    so, sorry to anyone I offended, seriously. Evidently, the world of sports is extremely deeply emotional for people.

    First my close friend worked on me to understand college football and introduce me to who is playing for the Ducks.

    Now my niece and her BF are actively working on me to get to know the Seahawks.

    They told me their next project is go educate me about the Blazers.

    Parent

    But your comment... (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by unitron on Mon Jan 26, 2015 at 10:12:25 AM EST
    about others here prejudicially ignoring the 'great North West' said nothing about sports, and was not a reply to any other comment (in that it had no "Parent" link beneath it), so in a thread that contained as much talk about the Middle East as it did about football inflation levels, there was no context within which to properly interpret your motives.

    Parent
    Carry on! (none / 0) (#188)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 08:14:44 PM EST
    Here's some NW news, ZtoA. (sorry) (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:47:52 PM EST
    Washington State Politicians Draft Bill To Criminalize Whistleblowing In Agricultural Animal Cruelty Cases

    Parent
    You guys never cause much trouble :) (none / 0) (#152)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 11:14:09 AM EST
    Really??? (none / 0) (#154)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 11:32:51 AM EST
    there is a sort of prejudice to ignore the 'great North West'

    Really???

    We supply y'all with lots of wine,  high end spirits, lumber, food, paper and wood products - not to mention Intel, Microsoft and Nike (and many more).

    You mean that we BUY your products.  Should we cut you off and buy elsewhere??? There are other suppliers.

    You also left out Boeing. Last year two Boeings went down from Malaysian Airlines and I don't recall one post from you on the matter.


    Parent

    Geesh, Uncle "Chip" (none / 0) (#161)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:33:23 PM EST
    Almost all of us, except for those on tablets or phones, are talking to you via intel chips and chipsets, even the folks on Macs.  There may be a few people saving a few bucks by running Jerry Sanders' legacy but not many.

    As for posts re Boeing, get serious.  There's only one way that discussion would turn.  As it was, nobody blamed Boeing for anything.

    Parent

    As usual, a misdirected post. (none / 0) (#162)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:35:22 PM EST
    "Never mind."

    Parent
    Lynch was on my Fantasy team (none / 0) (#166)
    by nycstray on Sun Jan 25, 2015 at 12:50:34 PM EST
    sadly he was not in beast mode every week . . .

    And as a '9er fan, not much to discuss when it comes to the 'hawks and their fans. We don't like you :D

    Parent