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Paris Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Nov 14, 2015 at 10:49:28 AM EST
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To talk about the Paris terrorist attacks.

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    Paris Open Thread | 17 comments (17 topical)

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    What is there to say? (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 14, 2015 at 12:54:09 PM EST
    Other than trying to talk to anyone in Europe about taking refugees is probably over.

    Music (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 14, 2015 at 01:10:41 PM EST
    can speak for us.

    Parent
    Doubt it (none / 0) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 14, 2015 at 03:03:54 PM EST
    Spoke to my sister-in-law. Germans were already in the streets protesting taking refugees for this reason. Another thing that is brutally startling that is reported in the German media is that most of the refugees are men. Looks like they just abandoned most of the women. And the few women arriving have been brutally repeatedly raped while on the road fleeing, by their own men. At this point.....I just give up.

    Parent
    They didn't necessarily just abandon them (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CST on Mon Nov 16, 2015 at 12:42:31 PM EST
    A majority of the people in the refugee camps in Lebanon for example are women and children.  But that doesn't mean they intend to leave them behind forever.  Often one member of the family will go first, establish legal residency, and then bring the rest of the family.  It's far safer for a young man to travel alone than to bring his whole family.  And yes, the culture is a huge part of it as well, since young women travelling alone are at risk.  But I wouldn't call it abandonment.

    FWIW, that's what a lot of my family did during WW2 - men came to the U.S. first to establish a home, legal status, and a job, wife and kids/rest of the family came later.

    Parent

    Don't give up, MT (none / 0) (#5)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 14, 2015 at 04:21:21 PM EST
    As a nation and a collection of nations, we can all work our way through this. I really believe that if we focus--not turn away as some wishful observers urge, not try to wish something away because it is truly so ugly, not try to deny any more than we would deny the almost overwhelming realness of climate change--and we work as closely as possible with other nations we can/will arrive at a coordinated, solid approach to sterilize or contain or destroy this international expansion of terrorism.

    Whatever it is, the solution has got to be a multilateral one because the effects of ISIS have already been wide & profound enough to make any narrow analysis too limited in application.  Chess games and legal disputes are easy by comparison to the hard-nose called for in the rough-and-tumble of world relations.  See Robert Morgenthau. For now, I'm glad that President Obama has the temperament that he has displayed ... for when it is needed, this man has nerves of steel... not bravado, but pure grit that probably will be called for in the days/months ahead.

    This I feel, MT: You care and you have the spirit and determination and (I'm guessing) the know-how.  Don't give up.

    Parent

    I used to care (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 14, 2015 at 09:15:20 PM EST
    But they damage women and children so badly, even when they aren't at war, it is in my opinion these days impossible to not at least be a sociopath and at worst psychotically insane by the time you reach adulthood. Did you see the recent Anthony Bourdain in Turkey? Women can't laugh out loud in Turkey now? The fundamentalists are taking over there too.

    I'm done. Until Islam is willing to deal with/acknowledge misogyny and child abuse, I'm done. There is covert but able to speak of it and allowed some self protections, and then there is overt...blatant slavery and torture.  Call me done.

    Parent

    Jihadists entering (none / 0) (#4)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 14, 2015 at 03:15:54 PM EST
    Europe as refugees has always been a concern, and efforts have been made for appropriate screening. However, it is premature to conclude that one of the Paris murderers did, in fact, slip through as a refugee fleeing the terrorists.

      Paris investigators did report that a Syrian passport belonging to a man born in 1990 had been lying close by the bodies of two other terrorists, who both blew themselves up in the attacks.  The passport may or may not belong to the assailant, perhaps stolen.   Fingerprints from the corpse should provide the evidence needed. In any event, it does seem that some of the terrorists are home grown, with home being as close as the Paris banilieus.  

    Members of the SoCal rock band ... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 14, 2015 at 11:12:19 PM EST
    ... Eagles of Death Metal, who were performing last night at Paris' Bataclan Concert Hall when that venue came under attack, managed to escape through a backstage door. But today, the family of Nick Alexander, one of the band's crew members, confirmed that he had been killed in the assault. He had been working the merchandise table in the Bataclan's front lobby, and was apparently among the first victims when the gunmen burst in and opened fire.

    Faces for the Victims (none / 0) (#8)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Nov 15, 2015 at 05:02:37 AM EST
    Paris attacks: identities of victims from more than a dozen countries emerge

    Citizens of at least 15 countries are among the dead, and below are just some of those identified.
    France strike back (none / 0) (#9)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 15, 2015 at 09:15:31 PM EST
    PARIS (AP) -- France launched "massive" air strikes on the Islamic State group's de-facto capital in Syria Sunday night, destroying a jihadi training camp and a munitions dump in the city of Raqqa, where Iraqi intelligence officials say the attacks on Paris were planned.

    Twelve aircraft including 10 fighter jets dropped a total of 20 bombs in the biggest air strikes since France extended its bombing campaign against the extremist group to Syria in September, a Defense Ministry statement said. The jets launched from sites in Jordan and the Persian Gulf, in coordination with U.S. forces.
    Link
    FWIW... (none / 0) (#11)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:17:16 AM EST
    Putin vows payback after Kremlin confirms bomb downed Russian plane over Egypt

    Man, I wish I knew who took that plane down:

    President Vladimir Putin vowed to hunt down those responsible for blowing up a Russian airliner over Egypt and intensify air strikes against Islamists in Syria, after the Kremlin concluded a bomb had destroyed the plane last month, killing 224 people.

    "We will find them anywhere on the planet and punish them," Putin said at a somber Kremlin meeting broadcast on Tuesday. The FSB security service swiftly announced a $50 million bounty on the bombers.

    Until now, Russia had played down assertions from Western countries that the Oct. 31 crash was the work of terrorists, saying it was important to let the official investigation run its course.

    But four days after Islamist gunmen and bombers killed at least 129 people in Paris, Alexander Bortnikov, the head of the FSB, told a late night meeting that traces of foreign-made explosive had been found on fragments of the downed plane and on passengers' personal belongings.
    FWIW #2 (none / 0) (#12)
    by christinep on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:25:15 AM EST
    When ISIS claimed credit for bombing that Russian airliner, a surprising alignment of interests really took hold. Example: Early reports on the news this a.m. indicate a Russian-French-United States military strike, etc. coalition against the common enemy.  

    Parent
    I Saw That and... (none / 0) (#14)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 01:16:10 PM EST
    ...I saw a blurb about cease fire between US & Russia.  Cease fire one day, coalition the next, I mean what the heck.

    Parent
    Some aspects of the U.S - Russia show (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 02:07:55 PM EST
    remind me of what went on in the U.S during the Cold War -- with pols holding a public "tough on Putin" contest the way they vied to posture and sound and act "tough on communism" in the
    Fifties and Sixties.

    Parent
    Mutuality (none / 0) (#16)
    by christinep on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 02:36:38 PM EST
    Circumstances change, don't they?

    One thing about Russia & Putin: My old studies come back to remind me (as does the memory of my late cousin, a longtime Russian professor) that so long as Putin was seen to provide a secure Mother Russia, his authoritarian ways would be acceptable for a number of reasons including the historical tradition of authoritarian leaders produced & endured there.  In the past--and with Putin--when the economic going & other real-life issues got tough at home, playing the nationalism (mixed with xenophobia)card usually worked ... but, again, the key for the Russian ruler at any time was to exude and demonstrate the strength to keep the people safe.  

    So, when the plane went down and, then, when it was determined officially to have been bombed by ISIS, even Putin's hold in Russia could be significantly undermined.  Then, Paris happened....

    Also, while the US was realizing some success in the fight with ISIS ( recall the claimed Jihadi John dispensation in the past week or so), we were seen as increasingly trapped or bogged down in Syria by trying to engage both Assad and his forces as well as the ISIS acceleration.  Something had to give, etc,  Paris happened also ....

    Turning to the aftermath of the Paris devastation at the hands of ISIS, the timing of the change of circumstances encountered a Putin probably in need of a face-saving operation with some probability of success and also corresponded to the US need to clarify and fortify its military operation in Syria.  As France declared War, Russia could support France as an ally and the US could certainly support its longtime & very first ally, France ... voila a tripartite mutually effective arrangement concentrated on a well-defined purpose.

    Parent

    I have (none / 0) (#17)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:13:03 PM EST
    Also heard that Russia might even be amenable to finding a long term exit plan for Assad

    Parent
    Charlie Rose had a neocon-stacked (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:43:35 AM EST
    panal on last night, all uniformly calling for the ouster of Assad with nary a dissenting voice..

    Hepped-up panalist Michael Weiss in particular, has an interesting background, with ties to usual suspects like Richard Perle and Wolfowitz..

    Any semblance of sober objectivity seemed to be sorely lacking in that discussion..

    Paris Open Thread | 17 comments (17 topical)

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