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The Debate Over Refugees

Should the U.S. take Syrian refugees? The debate continues as Republicans fall all over themselves, as if they were competing to be elected the next Henny Penny instead of President.

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    If (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by CoralGables on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 02:33:33 PM EST
    the Native Americans had secure borders and/or killed off the European refugees this wouldn't be an issue in the US.

    And if Republican Governors... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 02:57:42 PM EST
    ...had the authority to dictate who lives in their states, this might be an issue.

    More base level pandering, while most of them currently harbor armed and trained militias that want to overthrow our government.

    Parent

    So true. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:20:48 PM EST
    The real nativists should have killed every white man who touched these shores. They may have stopped coming.

    Parent
    well, (none / 0) (#192)
    by bocajeff on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 09:14:06 PM EST
    look how well that worked out for the Native Americans.

    I support letting in the refugees, but I hate the argument that Native Americans let Europeans in. It didn't work out well.

    Parent

    Priorities (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:14:14 PM EST
    If we are going to take refugees from Syria, we should start with the most at risk and lowest risk refugees. Those are the religious minorities that ISIS is fond of beheading or selling into sex slavery. Among those others those include Jews, Christians, and Yazidis.  After those are exhausted, and you really want to take Muslims, then take women, and males younger than 15 or older than 50.

    Unworkable (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 10:11:17 AM EST
    Not even counting the problem you would have figuring out who is a religious minority, you would be breaking up families.

    These are people, not animals.

    Parent

    If only the GOP was as active in calling for (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by ruffian on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:43:28 PM EST
    gun control, we could save a lot more deaths than any Syrian refugees are likely to ever cause.

    The hypocrisy is what burns me the most.

    I was (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:09:34 PM EST
    thinking the same thing. Having 24 children gunned down is just something we have to accept along with a lot of other killings in this country but I guess it also doesn't register with them that ISIS loves their guns as much as the NRA.

    Parent
    Yup. Paris was about a third of what (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by ruffian on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:19:00 PM EST
    we have lost in mass shootings this year through Oct. 1.

    I'm so sick of the meaningless sympathy rituals, when we won't address the root cause of any of these situations...we ignore the mass killings in our own country, and react to terrorist killings here and elsewhere with the mentality to just kill or lock out anyone with any faint common characteristic of a terrorist, such as nominal belief in the same religion.

    Parent

    If only (none / 0) (#130)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 11:10:52 PM EST

    If only the French had the common sense gun control laws that Obama says we need. What a bozo, he has not even suggested one to the French.  

    Parent
    Texas Republican Rep (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 11:17:00 PM EST
    Can't have refugees in Texas because it is too easy to purchase guns.

    Parent
    a few points (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:43:48 PM EST
  • there is in fact no way to vet the refugees (pace, Ben Rhodes, MFA, creative writing)

  • it's possible to see the governors' refusal to accept unvetted refugees as a necessary & symbolic protest of the feckless & incompetent Obama administration's high-handedness & self-serving, CYA dishonesty (a symbolic protest because it's obvious that the refugees, once admitted, can easily move from state to state)

  • as of last February, ISIS was already present in all 50 states, according to FBI director James Comey

  • since ISIS is already here, we might as well take our chances & admit the refugees on humanitarian grounds because, to paraphrase Churchill, we will have & in fact already do have war but can at least avoid dishonor


  • Nathan Deal (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:55:35 PM EST
    says he's not accepting any but he's just pandering to the far right as usual. I mean is he going to stand guard at the airport and make sure no one who he thinks is a Syrian refugee comes in? Is he going to stand at the all the major highways bogging down traffic for days checking every car to make sure none of them cross the state line from another state? No, it's just idiocy from Deal. The truth is none of these governors can do anything about unless they're willing to shut down all their highways and close down all their airports which would cause even more people to dislike them. I guess he just hopes that the voters are as ignorant as he apparently thinks they are.

    Parent
    as i said (none / 0) (#30)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:05:21 PM EST
    it can be seen as a necessary & symbolic protest, now joined by Governor Maggie Hassan (D-New Hampshire)

    Parent
    Unconstitutional too (none / 0) (#122)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:24:43 PM EST
    Governors do not control immigration--and cannot prevent people from another state from entering their state.

    Just feeding into reactionary views that what happened at the Appomattox courthouse never happened or should be ignored.

    Parent

    duh (none / 0) (#124)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:29:11 PM EST
    i thought you would have noticed that i already said so, since you seem to be following my comments rather closely

    Parent
    Didn't see where you said (2.00 / 1) (#127)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:42:10 PM EST
    that.  Was it buried in your verbosity?

    Parent
    The Tsarnaev family (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by itscookin on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:49:03 PM EST
    sought and was given asylum from the Chechen war zone. I'm not sure that should keep us from letting other refugees in, but it's not fair to criticize people who have real concerns calling them xenophobes and fear-mongers. There is a risk, and people should be given the opportunity to assess the risk. Maybe it's a risk we should be willing to take, but to suggest there's none is ridiculous. And depending on where we live in the US, we do have greater or lesser risks. Someone living out in the middle of nowhere can more safely advocate for welcoming refugees than someone who lives near an obvious target. If a terrorist attack has never hit close to your home, it's easier to be dismissive of someone else's legitimate experience.

    And they lived (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:55:13 PM EST
    peacefully for a long time before they did anything. We also have terrorists that are born and bred here in the US, that are white, that are male.

    What bugs me about all this is the mass hysteria from the right but yet we have massacres committed by our own citizens but somehow we're just supposed to accept that as a part of life I guess since most of them are committed by white males. Can you imagine if all those massacres had been committed by Muslims?

    Parent

    seriously? (none / 0) (#52)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:00:16 PM EST
    And they lived peacefully for a long time before they did anything.


    Parent
    Seriously (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by FlJoe on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:10:57 PM EST
     Timothy McVeigh lived peacefully for a long time before he did anything.

    Parent
    Seriously?? (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:20:38 PM EST
    If you live a long time and don't blow things up you are forgiven?

    Seriously?

    Parent

    Thick (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by FlJoe on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:27:38 PM EST
    as a brick dude, seriously.

    Parent
    You miss (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:26:27 PM EST
    the point. The point is we have our own home grown terrorists but the level of concern coming out of conservatives is practically nil with regards to that and no one should be punished for the acts of others unless they are Muslims according to the right wing.

    Now do you realize that rejecting these refugees is playing right into the hands of ISIS? It would be a PR boom for them because then they could say see we told you it was a war on Islam because the United States is not letting these people in because they are Muslims.

    I wish conservatives in this country would quit trying to do this kind of stuff.

    Parent

    Home grown terrorists vs imported ones (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by itscookin on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:57:46 PM EST
    isn't the point. If we already have our own terrorists, what would be the point of bringing in more? I'm not a Republican, and I'm not against bringing refugees into our country. My point is just it's not necessarily xenophobic or Islamophobic to have some concerns about the safety of Americans in light of past events. You don't seem to think it's unreasonable to limit gun ownership based on past events. Why is your logic reasonable and a Republican's concern fear-mongering? If you want people who have some reservations to come over to your way of thinking, you don't get there by insulting them. Appeal to their sense of compassion. Reassure them all possible safety precautions will be taken. Acknowledge they have legitimate concerns, but our humanity says we need to help. Democrats think Republicans are evil. You know what? They think Democrats are stupid. Insisting there's no credible risk to bringing Syrian refugees into the country proves their point. Of course there's a risk. Convince them it's one we should take. If you can't come up with a reasonable argument why we should, then you lose.

    Parent
    The Republicans (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:15:35 PM EST
    are not concerned for our safety as they have proved time and again. I wish they were but they are not. To me it just reeks of rank politics of playing to their far right base. My point being if they were truly concerned about the safety of Americans then it wouldn't be just in regards to Muslims. They would be concerned with all the gun deaths and a lot of other things. But like I said they truly are not concerned. I would take them and their concerns seriously if they applied the same standard to a lot of other things.

    I'm actually seeing quite a few Republicans that I know personally break ranks with the GOP on account of this. One is a second generation Lebanese who knows his family history and actually personally has met Syrians when he was in Lebanon visiting family. Either we're a giving country that welcomes people or we have become the land of bedwetters and xenophobes. Since no one seems to understand the vetting process someone from INS should come and explain it to everybody by having a press conference.

    Parent

    Fact is you already know all that you need to know (none / 0) (#80)
    by vicndabx on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:17:37 PM EST
    There is a risk but we have no choice.

    Parent
    Of course we have a choice (none / 0) (#151)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:19:02 PM EST
    Don't let'em in. They have no God given right to be brought here.

    Parent
    There is always a risk (none / 0) (#132)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 11:20:46 PM EST
    But in this case the risk appears to be just naked fear without any supporting facts.  You say of course there is a risk....as if it is just a self justifying statement....

    The Paris terrorists by all accounts were not refugees from Syria.  The one passport in the news was a fake....

    Aside from the Boston bombers, terrorist attacks have not come from refugees, and there was such a time lag between the Boston bombers and the attack that a causal link seems pretty hard to find.  He was radicalized here, not from where he came.

    So, yes, people are afraid.  But it is fear that can turn otherwise reasonable minds to bigotry.  The internment of the Japanese comes to mind.    

    Parent

    Good grief (none / 0) (#150)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:18:09 PM EST
    But in this case the risk appears to be just naked fear without any supporting facts.

    Boston Marathon.

    NY Times Square plot.

    and on and on

    Parent

    Here's an idea (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by CST on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:25:32 PM EST
    If you're that afraid of terrorism, stay out of the northeast.

    Parent
    CST, I think the people of the northeast (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:46:07 PM EST
    would be happy to have him stay out of their region.

    Parent
    I'd rather have (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by CST on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:46:43 PM EST
    Syrian refugees, speaking for me only.

    Parent
    Now, now... (none / 0) (#160)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:49:35 PM EST
    Jim is as welcome as any refugee in my neighborhood...no ideological, religious, or political tests need be administered.  That would be un-American.  

    Parent
    He can come if he wants (none / 0) (#161)
    by CST on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:57:03 PM EST
    But he'll never be more welcome than my muslim sister and my nephews and brother in law.

    Sorry kdog, I get it, but it's personal.  

    Parent

    But of course... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 03:53:17 PM EST
    we all have our preferences, I'll take single Syrian ladies who enjoy hashish and are eager to explore a hedonistic infidel neo-classical western lifestyle for $200 Alex! ;)

    Point is, once you start picking and choosing you're just like the arseholes in ISIS or the GOP Primary.

    Parent

    She's (none / 0) (#167)
    by FlJoe on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 04:08:55 PM EST
    named Layla in my fantasy, just because.

    Parent
    Don't worry CST (1.00 / 2) (#197)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 09:54:50 PM EST
    I have spent a lot of time in the NE, and as I told a dude one day who said he lived in NYC.

    Why in the world do you do that?

    And understand. If I could visually ID you, Donald, MKS, GA, jondee and shoephone  coming towards me I would cross to the other side of the street rather than speak with you.

    None of you want to debate facts or explain positions. This is you.

    How Lefties argue.

    Parent

    Sandy Hook, Aurora, Charleston... (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:44:51 PM EST
    and the dozens of other mass murders I'm forgetting...welcome to the 21st Century my old friend.  It's a fact of life regardless of what our refugee policy is.

    I side with Hollande and Obama on this...any sc*mbag with a machine gun can take any of our lives, but they can never take the ideals we hold dear.  Only we can give those ideals away, and that is the ultimate defeat...the ultimate death. I say not on our watch!

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#163)
    by FlJoe on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 03:28:26 PM EST
    and Americans in the end show no fear, we just carry on with worried concern on the left, depraved indifference on the right.

    Now add a Muslim connection and the left carries on with worried concern and the right goes berserk with fear. Funny how that works.

    Parent

    Columbine, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Charleston, (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 03:05:45 PM EST
    Oklahoma City, Centennial Olympic Park, Planned Parenthood bombing: white Christian Americans.  Not a Muslim in sight.

    "Our own" people have committed more acts of violence and terrorism in this country than any refugees from Middle-Eastern countries.  

     

    Parent

    And the total killed and wounded (none / 0) (#199)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 10:03:30 PM EST
    do not equal the total of the radical islamist attacks within the US.

    And that is very very true of the economic damage and lives harmed/changed for the worse.

    And none of these were state sponsored terrorism or dictated. McVeigh was an agnostic. No Christian church approved the PP bombing.

    You're trying to excuse the radical islamists. Despicable.

    The issue is simple. A segment of Islamic believers have become radical and declared a religious war against the west.

    Parent

    Do you think (none / 0) (#155)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:28:17 PM EST
    the internment of the Japanese was a good idea and supported by the evidence?

    Your current reasoning would suggest you agree with the internment.

    Parent

    Based on what I know now, no. (none / 0) (#198)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 09:57:26 PM EST
    Based on what I understand FDR knew then, yes.

    War is hell and a lot of bad things happen to good people.

    That's why we must be the strongest country in the world.

    Hyenas attack the weak.

    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#166)
    by FlJoe on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 04:06:10 PM EST
    this guy will show you the meaning of human decency and courage
    French President Francois Hollande Welcomes Refugees Despite Paris Attack


    Parent
    Maybe Republicans... (none / 0) (#169)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 04:22:18 PM EST
    ...can go back to disparaging the French, their recent lovefest has been unnerving considering it's sole purpose seems to be to get into a war.

    Parent
    Did not (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:04:50 PM EST
    they come here in the 1990's as children?

    Parent
    They arrived in 2002. (none / 0) (#61)
    by itscookin on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:22:14 PM EST
    Obama just blasted GOP (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:42:06 PM EST
    candidates....

    They were worried about debate moderators, now they are fearful of widows and orphans.  Doesn't sound tough....Just playing on fear.

    I am so glad Obama went there.....No sugar coating it.  Yes, fear and xenophobia happens but it should be opposed.  

    Good for Obama (none / 0) (#115)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:48:48 PM EST
    Big brave Republicans peddle nothing but fear. Scared of 5 year old orphans.

    Parent
    It was on (none / 0) (#116)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:51:10 PM EST
    MSNBC, (yes, Addams, that channel) on Lawrence O'Donnell's show.

    He did go on for a while....sounded pissed at the hateful ignorance.

    Parent

    MSNBC just played a longer (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:11:47 PM EST
    version of Obama's comments in the Philippines tonight.   It was good stuff.  I am proud of Obama.  Hillary has been strong on this too.  I am proud of her too.

    This is what it means to be a liberal.   To oppose fear and panic leading to bigotry.    

    Parent

    Big Orange has (none / 0) (#125)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:29:13 PM EST
    a recommended diary on this....

    Parent
    Agreed. there is much (none / 0) (#170)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 04:53:54 PM EST
     to be proud of in President Obama's pitch perfect response initially set at the Group of 20 summit in Antalya, Turkey.  

    However, the Republicans have become even more unhinged, horrifying, hard-line and inhumane in their response to the ISIS attack in Paris, ranging from bomb the hell out them (Trump), proselytize the hell out of them (Kasich), and reject all of them (all).  It may be argued that increasing the bombing and restricting the refugees is just what ISIS wants.(the fake Syrian passport suggested as a plant).  I have no problem giving them just what they want, if it is also is something that we want.  

    It may be wise, so as to overcome the xenophobic and reactionary response, to tamp down the Republican proclivity to exploit emotions, especially the basic one of fear. The president may ask for an administrative review of the procedures deployed for vetting refugees in light of the events in Paris and the international concerns.

     And, of paramount importance, to explain and re-iterate the details of the procedure. A goal being for the time to be gained from a study.  The Paris investigation is likely to show that the assailants were European, in largest measure, the weapons were purchased in Belgium, and the ISIS connection did not depend on refugees.

    It seems like a re-rum of the fear generated by Ebola.  And, it worked, deliberately and falsely  creating an environment of seeming chaos and incompetence that influenced the mid-term elections.

     The time will not assuage the Republicans who, no doubt feel they have stumbled onto a good thing, but it should be considered as part of the argument in favor of the American way.  

    A crisis and emotional exploitation is not a good time to act on such matters.  Similarly, it is not a good time to construct a new AUMF, as much as one is over-due. However, we are relatively safe in this department (other than for Lindsey) since the Republican Congress does not want to be involved in constructive aspects of the civil war in Syria.  

    Parent

    Shades of color coded terror alerts (none / 0) (#144)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 12:43:20 PM EST
    that abruptly stopped after the 2004 election..

    The rethugs are going to wring every blessed paranoia-inducing droplet out of this that it's humanly possible to do..

     

    Parent

    "right winger": lol (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:39:03 AM EST
    you seem to have trouble distinguishing the noun Democrat from the noun Obama fanboy

    but you know much more than i do about right-wing blogs if you're aware of what appeared on them mere hours ago, so maybe it's time for you to prove that you're not a secret wingnut

    as for me, i am a liberal (not centrist) Democrat

    this means, among other things, that i see the illiberal right & the illiberal left as specular ideological twins

    this also means that i am free to think critically about the Obama administration without ceasing to be a liberal Democrat

    You are lucky you are allowed to post here.

    heh - that goes for you, too, & everybody else who comments here, as i've been doing for about 7 years

    but, wow, the neighborhood - if you step half an inch outside the Purist Party Line these days, people clutch their pearls and can't stop babbling about how they saw something nasty in the woodshed

    Your view on refugess (none / 0) (#140)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 08:41:00 AM EST
    are anything but liberal.....

    You allow fear to lead to broad brush labeling.....This is  how the internment occurred.

    Parent

    nonsense (none / 0) (#143)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 12:42:07 PM EST
    RIYF - oh wait . . . not so much

    Parent
    Coherence much? (none / 0) (#147)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 01:54:50 PM EST
    Go and tell us how your fearmongering is so liberal....I really missed that the first time.

    Parent
    I just don't even know what to say, or (4.50 / 2) (#93)
    by Anne on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:53:12 PM EST
    how to organize and frame my own thoughts on this subject.

    I just don't think I can even begin to know what so many of these people have been through, the hardships they've faced, the sacrifices they've made, just trying to find someplace safe to live and breathe.  And having made the journey, to be greeted, in some cases, by more hatred, and distrust and anger - I just really can't wrap my head around it.

    Because they're brown, or they're Muslim, and apparently a lot of people who can tell the difference between, say, members of the Klan, or the Westboro Baptist Church, even though all the members are white, can't tell the difference between someone fleeing terror and oppression, and someone creating terror.

    Coming here as a refugee is no piece of cake.  The Baltimore Sun just recently did a series on what life is like for teenagers coming here under difficult circumstances, and it was eye-opening, and heartbreaking.

    Here's a breakdown of the three parts, with links to same:

    Part One: Refugees who have arrived in Baltimore from war-torn countries are carrying psychic wounds, trauma that makes it hard to succeed in the classroom, and in their new lives in America.

    Part Two: The wave of teenagers who fled violence in their Central American countries find their way forward in the United States is complicated by family heartbreak, legal issues and pressure to drop out of school and work.

    Part Three
    : A new wave of refugees, often from far-flung countries, is landing in Patterson High School without the ability to read or write. They face a tough journey to get to high school graduation.

    I'm not saying there isn't and shouldn't be a process for being admitted as a refugee; I think most people are intelligent enough to understand that no one's recommending wholesale entrance into the US with no kind of due diligence.

    And if all these governors were framing their concerns this way, perhaps the nation could have a civil discussion, come together as a nation whose residents have come from all over the world.  What is putting people off, what is raising people's hackles, are the baldly ignorant comments of people in positions of power and influence who are supposed to be better than that.

    And then to come here and read comments by people who actually seem to be rooting for more acts of terror, who seem to think this is just one more thing to pillory the president and members of his party over - well, that's not really helpful, either.

    Sadly, I think the Republican candidates have made it possible for people to feel like they finally have permission to get their bigotry on and revel in it.

    I am sad for my country, for the direction that people are allowing it to go, for how hard so many seem to be working and fighting for it to go, and for how impossible it seems to be for reason to triumph over fear.

    Well, (none / 0) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 08:00:13 PM EST
    the only positive I read from your post is the fact that the GOP can no longer hide from their bigotry. It's out there like a bright shining light for all to see. So no more using code words and dog whistles like before. But you know what? That can be a very good thing. I would rather them say it loud and proud that they're a bigot than act like a bigot in front of one group and then try to hide from it with another.

    Parent
    Anne, all a person of conscience ... (none / 0) (#105)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:08:24 PM EST
    ... can really do here is to stand in (at least spiritual) solidarity with those people who otherwise have no real voice in this matter, and to implore those in power to live up to our country's own principles and do right by them, because it's actually moral and just that we do do.

    I'm sure you know my oft-quoted favorite Persian proverb, "Dogs bark and the caravan passes." Perhaps one of these days, we'll finally learn to simply let the dogs bark themselves out, while we continue on our journey.

    That seems to be what the president is doing on this matter. Hopefully, he's finally recognized that his opposition's specious arguments about homeland security are entirely opportunistic in motive, and therefore it should not be dignified with any attempt on his part to respond to their catcalls, save with contempt for their own displays of moral weakness and lack of character in the face of these refugees' trials and tribulations.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The GOP (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 02:28:27 PM EST
    is xenophobic so it should come as no surprise. I mean these are the same people that want to round up Hispanics and put them in the box cars.

    Hate of immigrants is the common (none / 0) (#2)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 02:32:07 PM EST
    denominator that binds the GOP.

    It's a common denominator amongst ... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:34:25 PM EST
    ... lots of people, unfortunately. The Republicans have merely been the party that's currently willing to stoke fear of others for political advantage. But lest we gloat and wag our fingers, we Democrats should remember that members and public officials from our own party haven't necessarily proved themselves immune to such nonsense in the past. (Or the present, for that matter -- see "Hassan, Gov. Maggie (NH)")

    After all, it was FDR's Democratic administration which in 1939 refused entry of the MS St. Louis with its manifest of Jewish passengers seeking asylum from Nazi Germany, forcing that ship to eventually return to Europe with nearly everyone on board. Their story was immortalized 35 years later in the acclaimed book by Gordon Thomas and Max Morgan-Witts, "Voyage of the Damned." An estimated 25% of that ship's passengers subsequently perished in the Holocaust.

    Our country has always had a very strong nativist component, comprised of people who for argument's sake conveniently choose to forget their own respective family histories. Because with the noted exception of indigenous Americans, Alaskans, Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders, we are ALL descended from immigrant stock.

    There's no sense in dancing around the painfully obvious here. The rationale being offered by Sen. Ted Cruz and other nativists against the entry of Syrian refugees is at once shortsighted, immoral, shameful and cowardly, and we shouldn't shy away from saying so. Those moronic 31 governors who presently seek to block the entry of those refugees into their respective states -- an act which is blatantly unconstitutional on its face -- are simply rendering their own constituents vulnerable to the inevitable federal anti-discrimination lawsuits which will surely follow.

    I'm proud of our own Gov. David Ige, who immediately and publicly rejected this demented and bigoted argument yesterday for the fear-mongering foolishness that it is, and has once again reaffirmed Hawaii's willingness to welcome those 10,000 Syrian refugees accepted by INS for entry into the United States.

    Gov. Ige has since been joined in that affirmation by Govs. Jerry Brown (CA), Jay Inslee (WA), John Hickenlooper (CO), Tom Wolf (PA), Peter Shumlin (VT), Dannel Malloy (CT) and Jack Markell (DE). If you happen to live in one of those states, please call or email your governor's office to thank him for his stand. I can assure you that such statements of support right now would be very much appreciated.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Isn't Europe (none / 0) (#4)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 02:56:46 PM EST
    Having this same debate? So Europe is now run by Republicans as well?
    I think it is prudent for our government to fully explain the vetting process that these refugees will go through.
    From what I heard, it is almost possible to vett many of these refugees. There is no documentation for these people, Syria had none, and now they are homeless.
    Many of the refugees in Europe, or en route, are claiming to be from Syria, but are not.
    Unfortunately, this is the perfect opportunity for ISIS to smuggle "true believers" to Europe and the USA.
    Basically, i am just waiting for our politicians to admit there is a risk of ISIS infiltrating the refugees, and committing a terrorist act,  but it is a risk we must take.

    You can (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:12:53 PM EST
    continue to be fearful for your entire life. It's something you can chose to be. Nobody is going to stop you. However the GOP has been saying the same thing about Hispanics. It's all fear based. Have you ever heard about psychological vetting? It's done all the time.

    Besides no one seemed to think we should deport or restrict in any way the lives of conservative white males after Timothy McVeigh blew up the Murrah building and killed a lot of people. Or are you saying Bill Clinton made a mistake not rounding up people like you?

    Parent

    It's all fear based. (none / 0) (#13)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:26:16 PM EST
    Have you seen Paris lately?
    Or today, in Germany?

    You feel it is a acceptable risk for yourself and your neighbors , but, I doubt ISIS will do much damage in Georgia. Here in NY ,eh, maybe they have some targets that I frequent.
    You are all over the place..Hispanics? and throwing slanderous assumptions around like salt over your shoulder.
    Okay , Hispanics...basically, just the ones that have come here illegally, and been convicted of a felony. Yes, I would comfortably say those should be deported.
    All I am asking is for our government to explain their vetting process (they can't, there is none) and then our elected politicians admitting that their is a risk and it is one the citizens of this country need to take.
    And if I lived in Georgia, I wouldn't worry about one iota, but as I live just outside NYC , and frequent the Big Apple, yes, I just might reconsider my entertainment options, thankfully my employment does include travel to NYC

    Parent

    The terrorist (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:39:29 PM EST
    are obviously winning with you since you are allowing them to dictate your behavior.

    Have you not even listened to what the GOP is saying about Hispanics? They're saying round 'em all up and send them away. Take citizenship away from their children. It's not slander when it's the truth.

    Georgia is getting refugees. Why would you not be afraid if you lived in Georgia if you are afraid of the refugees? There is an organization here in Atlanta that is going to take some of the refugees.

    Parent

    Apples & Oranges... (none / 0) (#15)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:40:43 PM EST
    It's obvious what you are doing, conflating all of it to make it seem like we are unsafe in America and will be even less safe with refugees.  

    When in fact, ISIS has not attacked us, refugees have not attacked anyone, you can't just stir all these events and situations into one pot and say, no Muslims refugees for thee.

    And not to point out the obvious, but I would be very surprised to learn that you, NYC, doesn't have refugees from every situation that has ever created them, and as far as I know NYC is still with us.

    Parent

    Wrong (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:03:10 PM EST
    refugees have not attacked anyone,


    Parent
    Maybe you could make (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:39:42 PM EST
    a little extra $ driving them to gun shows..

    Parent
    I Think the Word... (none / 0) (#6)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:03:00 PM EST
    ...you are looking for is conservatives, and yes there are many of them throughout Europe.

    There is a risk that people currently here, many of them white Christians, have and will continue terrorists attacks right here.

    The idea that you can get some sort of guarantee on human beings is silly, as in the notion of not taking people who have been displaced because of our actions.

    Parent

    However (none / 0) (#7)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:09:44 PM EST
    I think you are getting a guarantee that we will be importing terrorists with these refugees.

    I want our politicians, perhaps Mayor DeBlasio, say it is an acceptable risk to the citizens of NY to take, to accept these refugees.

    Or, since our President says there is a robust vetting process, please explain it.

    Currently, once these refugees are placed within the USA, they are not tracked, whoosh, like dust in the wind they may go.


    Parent

    The conservative (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:15:24 PM EST
    movement here in the US has become a haven for home grown terrorism yet you seem to have no concern about that. You're afraid of them because of their religion and their skin color.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#11)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:18:20 PM EST
    We have had many instances of home grown terrorism,

    ISIS followers picking up their queues  from the internet

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 03:22:30 PM EST
    people that would probably look like you have committed numerous terrorist acts. We even have police acting like terrorists in some instances. We have numerous terrorist organizations here in the south like the KKK and militia groups etc. One group was recently infiltrated as planning to murder Obama.

    Parent
    Whenever we have (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:16:26 PM EST
    an instance of terrorism by radical islamists we can always depend on the Left making excuses.

    Now we have John Kerry joining you....

    John Kerry: "Rationale" for Charlie Hebdo attack more understandable

    Parent

    Oh, good (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:20:38 PM EST
    grief. You are a perfect example of not wanting an honest discussion. You prefer to degrade down to bedwetting hysteria. Go hide under your bed Jim. You're more likely to die of a gunshot to the head by another American but that doesn't concern you one iota it seems.

    Parent
    If you want to say that (none / 0) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:12:26 PM EST
    it is rational for Muslims to kill people who insult  their prophet be my guest.

    Rational - "based on or in accordance with reason or logic."

    And your silly claim that anyone who notes their despicable action is quivering with fear is just that.

    Silly.

    But usual and expected.

    Parent

    The word was "rationale" (none / 0) (#152)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:19:59 PM EST
    Not "rational."

    There is a difference......

    Parent

    Rationale (none / 0) (#202)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 10:34:06 PM EST
    a set of reasons or a logical basis for a course of action or a particular belief.
    "he explained the rationale behind the change"

    The claim is that their rationale was rational because of the actions of Charlie's insulting the prophet whereas the latest attack was not... it was just indiscriminate and random.

     That is also called "Making an excuse" "Carrying the water for" "Being a fan boy".......

    I doubt that the dead can see the difference.

    But Kerry's BS is just so wrong on so many levels.

    Justifying the attack on CH by saying that it was because of insults to the prophet without plainly and specifically condemning it legitimatizes it in many minds.

    The latest attack was carefully planned and executed. It didn't just "happen."

    Parent

    Hey you already have (none / 0) (#22)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:30:04 PM EST
    Christie saying that we shouldn't even take 5 year old Syrian orphans. What more do you want? Those big, tough  Republicans are keeping you safe from 5 year olds. Gotta make you proud.

    Parent
    MO, I don't see where Trevor (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by NYShooter on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:17:32 PM EST
    said anything about denying 5-year olds entry to the U.S. And, tying him to whatever that sorry excuse of a human, Ted Cruz, said is just unfair.

    From my reading, Trevor is questioning the thoroughness of the vetting process for these refugees. The INS itself is saying they must go through the most thorough investigation possible, or else they won't be allowed entry. They are quite aware that ISIS, or another terrorist group, will use the plight of the refugees to gain entry here.

    I watched a program over the weekend where a group of INS officials were discussing this very issue. They are well aware of the problem that many refugees seeking entry won't have acceptable documentation with them. They claim to have set up, or, are setting up "half way" centers where they will stay until they satisfy INS that they are who they say they are.

    Why is someone being attacked personally for wanting to know more about this vetting process?

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#39)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:26:42 PM EST
    Because no one reads what is actually written

    They project their feelings without actually reading

    I do not trust our government, and I am sure many here said the same thing 12 years ago, you see, we have something in common, distrust of government.

    I just want Obama , INS , Homeland Security to fully and in detail how they will acceptably vett these refugees,
    And when they can't,
    Say that they fully expect some sleeper cells to come in with these refugees, but it is an acceptable risk as this is who Americans are.

    Not too much to ask.

    Parent

    The INS officials I watched (none / 0) (#45)
    by NYShooter on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:51:02 PM EST
    addressed that problem.

    Before I go any further, and for the purpose of full disclosure, I went through a similar vetting process for the purpose of getting a Certificate of Citizenship here in the USA. Because I was born in Russia at the end of WW2, and, because of all the confusion taking place at that time, my parents were able to scramble out of the U.S.S.R. (through the "Iron Curtain.") In our haste everything was left behind, thus, we had no documentation. Years later I had to prove my citizenship in order to get a passport. That's when I went through the same kind of vetting process today's refugees will be going through. Well, I had the same question people are asking today, "how are they going to prove I'm O.K. without any documentation? All I can tell you is, there are ways. You just have to take my word for it.

    Anyway, the officials I watched claimed that these refugees will go through the most stringent vetting process possible. And, in the end, if their true status is not verifiable, they will be sent to a country, not Syria, where they will be safe, and, welcomed.

    More than this I can't tell you.

    Parent

    Actually I did read what you wrote (none / 0) (#53)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:02:37 PM EST
    I didn't have to project my feelings into it at all.

    You wrote:

    I think you are getting a guarantee that we will be importing terrorists with these refugees.

    You want guarantees from Democratic politicians. That was clearly stated. Also clearly stated, is that you want Democratic politicians and department heads to go on record stating that they fully expect sleeper cells to infiltrate this country for the purpose of committing terrorist acts but they are willing to risk the safety of our citizens anyway.

    Yes, it is definitely too much to ask.

    Parent

    Evidently you didn't read my comment (none / 0) (#46)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:51:39 PM EST
    or the comment that I replied to carefully. I think I specifically mentioned Christie. Cruz was nowhere in my comment.

    The comment that I replied to did not want more information on the method being used to vet the refugees. It flat out stated that we were guaranteeing that we will be importing terrorists. It wanted guarantees from Democratic politicians. The so call request for an explanation after the unqualified statement that we would be importing terrorists was just so much smoke and mirrors. Read the actual comment.

    I think you are getting a guarantee that we will be importing terrorists with these refugees.

    I want our politicians, perhaps Mayor DeBlasio, say it is an acceptable risk to the citizens of NY to take, to accept these refugees.

    Or, since our President says there is a robust vetting process, please explain it.



    Parent
    Correct, I apologize, Christie, not Cruz (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by NYShooter on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:38:24 PM EST
    In any event, my opinion of one is certainly transferable to the other.

    Look, I'm not Trevor's designated defender. And, I don't approve of unfounded hyperbole regardless of whose using it. But, it wouldn't matter what Trevor says here, he won't be responded to by what he actually says. He's been vetted by the TL Purity Patrol, and the resultant verdict seems to have been that he's not entitled to a reasonable response. Just read some of the responses, and tell me this is how intelligent, adult people should be conducting themselves in this forum.  


    Parent

    Let's put this in prospective (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:19:01 PM EST
    Let's respond to what Trevor has actually said.

    Trevor is asking for Obama, his administration and other
    Democratic politicians to go on record stating that they fully expect sleeper cells to infiltrate this country for the purpose of committing terrorist acts but they are willing to risk the safety of our citizens anyway.

    Do you really think he is merely requesting more information? Do you support that position? If Obama explanations do not satisfy Republicans like Trevor, do you want Obama and other Democratic politicians to go record stating that they know they are allowing terrorist sleeper cells into this country but they are willing to risk the safety of our citizens to do this? Do you personally think Trevor is making a reseasonable request? Do you think that a statement like that might have an adverse affect on the 2016 election? Do you think that Republicans might be sprouting these talking points for a reason that has nothing to do with information gathering?

    Just an aside, assigning labels like Purity Patrol adds nothing to the discussion. It is a discounting technique that adult, intelligent people refrain from using.

    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:42:38 PM EST
    I think Trevor might be capable of having a discussion but he always brings the wingnut welfare talking points. And if all you're bringing is wingnut welfare you're not adding much to the discussion. We have had conservatives on this blog who are capable of reasonable discussion. I mean if you think the cut and paste is worthy of anything less than derision let me know.

    Parent
    I know (none / 0) (#17)
    by lentinel on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:02:23 PM EST
    that this is not an exact analogy - maybe it is really a stretch - but the feeling that I get from some of these republican governors - and some of the right-wing French politicians - makes me think of what I read about the hysteria which led to the internment camps for Japanese Americans in WW2.

    You wonder how some of those things could ever have happened - especially in our country - but then something stirs the pot and makes it all seem all too real and current.

    Schumer and Hassan right wing (none / 0) (#19)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:12:30 PM EST
    Democrats -- including Attorney general Loretta Lynch in testimony before the House Judiciary Committee Tuesday -- have acknowledged the challenge of vetting refugees from Syria where the government cannot provide useful information. Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., said Tuesday a pause might be necessary to ensure refugees are properly screened.
    And add New Hampshire's Maggie Hassan, Democrat Governor from New Hampshire

    Parent
    That is Long, Long, Long... (none / 0) (#24)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:43:27 PM EST
    ...way from flat out denial, not even in the same league.

    You keep conflating all the points here, putting deniers with people who want to ensure we have proper screening, yeah, if you mix anyone up who said anything then sure you can stick a 'right wing' label on them.

    Either you are doing it on purpose, or you can't distinguish the difference, either way it is a very bothersome.

    Also we can read without the highlights, especially since you also made note of it in the subject line.  We get it, you think Schumer and Christie are taking the same point of view when they clearly are not.

    Parent

    Christie was being bombastic (none / 0) (#28)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:03:07 PM EST
    "I do not trust this administration to effectively vet the people who are proposed to be coming in," the New Jersey governor and presidential hopeful said in an interview Monday with radio host Hugh Hewitt.

    Is what he said.
    As are all the governors saying no,

    So let Obama explain the great vetting system he has proposed, he hasn't given any details.

    Everyone is going bat shit crazy, let the President explain what he is proposing and how he will go about it.

    Unfortunately the Federal Government lately just does things, and we find out later.
    Nassau County in NY has some of the greatest school districts in the country, and some of the worst. The Feds dumped hundreds of children in the last 2 years, that speak no english, or little if any, into Hempstead school district, on of Nassau failing school districts. According to the Feds Hempstead failed to adequately address their needs, and was threatened with punishments (financial if I can remember correctly) . I was flabbergasted, you have a school district that is already failing its students, then you throw hundreds more of almost unteachable new immigrants into that school, and chastise them for not addressing their needs.
    So yes, people want to hear the Feds plan first, before the actions begin.

    Parent

    You left out something Christie said (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 08:38:28 PM EST
    When asked if he would make an exception for "orphans under the age of five," Christie said no.


    Parent
    Actually, Scott, Gov. Maggie Hassan has ... (none / 0) (#35)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:14:57 PM EST
    ... since taken a position that the entry of any and all Syrian refugees should be denied. As for Sen. Chuck Schumer, a spineless showboat who's well-versed in the art of "finger to the wind" politics, he's now called upon the Obama administration to "temporarily pause" the entry of Syrians refugees.

    While it's always easy to say whatever's currently perceived as popular, it's often neither easy nor necessarily popular to ultimately do what is right.

    So, phuque 'em both for taking the easy way out.

    Parent

    Schumer blew it when he opposed (none / 0) (#103)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:00:04 PM EST
    the Iran nuke deal, when few Democrats did.  Sen.  Gillibrand from New York supported the deal.

    Schumer does not have much credibility left.

    Parent

    Agree on all points (none / 0) (#119)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:08:24 PM EST
    Chuck "Oops, I forgot my wallet again, can you pay for my dinner" Schumer is a total lapdog for AIPAC and Israel's Likud. When it comes to either national or international security, he can't be trusted.

    Parent
    "No true Democrat" (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 01:27:37 PM EST
    is the name of the logical fallacy that's been used to death in this thread.

    Parent
    You ain't quoting me, pal (none / 0) (#146)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 01:52:15 PM EST
    I never used the term "No true Democrat."

    I oppose the hawkishness of Schumer....Do you support it?

    Parent

    Oh, for crying out loud! (none / 0) (#27)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:56:47 PM EST
    Refugees and asylum seekers are already being screened by an in-depth process that's currently taking an average of two years to complete, before final approval is granted. Exactly what additional steps are you proposing that our federal government take to vet these Syrian refugees, in addition to the ones which are already in place?

    Honestly, this is just so much nonsensical political kabuki. Sen. Schumer and Gov. Hassan in particular should be absolutely ashamed of themselves, because they surely know better than to pander to the lowest common denominators of our national soul.

    As for all those Republican legislators and governors presently bleating in both ignorance and tandem on this subject, as I've said time and again before, when you cast a ballot for stupid, you can expect to see stupid in action as an entirely logical consequence of your vote.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Not from Syria (none / 0) (#32)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:08:21 PM EST
    Refugees and asylum seekers are already being screened by an in-depth process that's currently taking an average of two years to complete, before final approval is granted.

    Not from this latest group, that have no paperwork, no town or government that officials can document from.
    They have no paperwork, make up a name, there is no city official to contact for verification. And Yes 95 % may easily be legitimate refugees, but you can't vett them anyway. And ISIS knows this.
    So just come out and say we will most likely be accepting ISIS terrorists along with these refugees, but that is an acceptable risk we must all take.
    I have yet to see any politician make that statement, when they do, I know I have found a honest politician
    That is the problem, and ISIS boasted over the summer, this parade of refugee's will be carrying their sleeper cells.

    Parent

    You rely too much on papers (none / 0) (#104)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:02:53 PM EST
    As has been pointed out, papers can be faked....

    The process is a long process.....and there all kinds of ways of testing people, if that is what you want.  

    Parent

    How do you vet people (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:11:04 PM EST
    that no one has any reliable information on??

    The answer is you can't.

    Everyone, including all the commentators here know that.

    Obama's actions expose us. He needs to be stopped.

    Parent

    you have an obsession with people being (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:59:56 PM EST
    "exposed." Maybe try working that out with your therapist.

    Parent
    Let's vet you instead, you white-wing wimp! (none / 0) (#37)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:19:21 PM EST
    Your fraidy-cat xenophobia is particularly noxious right now.

    Parent
    You do so love to insult (none / 0) (#40)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:37:43 PM EST
    You probably cast more insults than anyone else on this blog,
    Not an attractive personality trait

    Where did I ever say I opposed taking any refugee?

    I do oppose being lied to by my politicians,
    Let them be honest
    Let them say we cannot properly vett these people,
    And there will be a risk to US citizens as a result
    Or perhaps there can be (OMG No, dare I say it)
    A compromise, and certain refugees, women with children , be rapidly introduced to this country.

    Parent

    You're dancing around my question. (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:32:55 PM EST
    Again, what specific actions would you have the federal government take in the processing of these Syrian refugees, as an official addendum to those steps which are already being taken? If you can't answer that, then what you're presently engaged in is just so much kabuki. You're merely offering to us an illusion of your open-mindedness on the subject, because your caveats clearly say otherwise.

    BTW, while your "women and children first" meme might have sounded noble and heroic when Capt. Smith ordered the evacuation of RMS Titanic back in 1912, you might want to keep in mind that not all suicide bombers and terrorists have been males over 18 years of age. While I'm not paranoid, I'm also not ignorant of the fact that radical religious fundamentalism is hardly the exclusive province of the adult male.

    Life itself involves an element of risk, and in this particular instance the risk from Syrian refugees who've been properly vetted and processed prior to their admission into our country is likely minimal to non-existent.

    While you and Jim might enjoy cowering in your bunkers for dread of The Other, I for one refuse to live my life in terror of chance and random occurrences, particularly if and when such fear would otherwise preclude me from doing the right thing. And taking in these poor refugees is absolutely and positively the right thing to do.

    Period.

    Parent

    Trev, I am jealous (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:11:47 PM EST
    I believe that Donald is my personal "Insulter."

    It is a dark and lonely job but he does relish it so.

    So I think he was attacking me. But, I am happy to share.

    And once he takes a position, as he did proclaiming that the Russian air liner was not downed by radical islamist, he won't change. Of course the Russians say it was.

    But I digress.

    So if I'm wrong and the insults were meant for you I will just put it down to him being fickle.

    If I am right, well..... your points are correct.

    Parent

    I never even once "proclaimed" ... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:48:59 PM EST
    jimakaPPJ: "And once he takes a position, as he did proclaiming that the Russian air liner was not downed by radical islamist, he won't change."

    ... that the Russian Metrojet A321 airliner was not downed by a terrorist act. I simply and repeatedly cautioned against rushing to judgment in the absence of conclusive evidence to that effect, and before the crash site investigators had completed their work and had a chance to present their findings and conclusions to the public. If anybody wants to see what I wrote about the matter, it's all there in prior threads, and I stand by every word.

    But then reading comprehension, memory retention, due consideration of alternative points of view, and personal intellectual honesty aren't exactly your strong suits during discussions here, so I'm hardly surprised that you would choose to deliberately mischaracterize my numerous comments on that particular subject.

    And I'm also sure that were Jeralyn to ever allow you to do so, you'd return to those comments and deliberately cherry-pick certain sentences and phrases from them, in order to further misconstrue what was actually said. Because the wholesale misrepresentation of other people's statements and positions is what you do here, especially when facts and truth aren't on your side.

    You take no personal responsibility for any of your own nonsensical and baseless contentions, and you instead repeatedly attempt to make others the issue, as though that somehow validates whatever claptrap you were peddling in the first place.

    You live solely to prejudge and condemn others from a right-wing perspective, without ever once paying heed to the potential consequences of your own statements and antisocial online behavior. The damnedest part of it all is that the only person you're apparently fooling here with your steady stream of BS is your own self.

    Have a nice evening.

    Parent

    No, what you did was tell people to shut up (1.00 / 1) (#149)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:15:58 PM EST
    when they commented that it was an act of terrorism.

    Same thing.

    You did that because you are an Obama lover and knew that the attack was another proof that Obama's claim that ISIS was "JV" was and is stupid.

    Parent

    It's (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:52:09 PM EST
    called psychological. Papers can be faked can they not? Go visit Ellis Island. They had a system even back then for vetting people with no papers. I'm sure we've got a lot better at it in the last 100 years or so.

    Parent
    Certainly not a long stretch (none / 0) (#21)
    by ruffian on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 04:20:30 PM EST
    Exactly the same thought process.

    Parent
    not taking in refugees seems bad (none / 0) (#31)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:07:41 PM EST
    could we find a piece of Montana or Kansas or whereever that is mostly empty and create a little city for these people?  Feed them, teach them and train them and after the war is over, send them back?

    I don't mean to be heartless in suggesting keeping them in some small area, but we also have a political situation with a lot of people in the USA opposed to their presence .  . .

    Let them live in the USA, with American comforts and freedoms, in part, for a few years . . .

    Anyway, that is my mind . . . probably . . . D.O.A.

    there is apparently a movie by that title made in the 40s or 50s . . .

    z

    Actually (none / 0) (#51)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:59:15 PM EST
    This is what should have been done in Syria several years ago, but Obama withdrew from the world,

    It can still be done there, create a "safe space", with full military protection for these refugees.

    It might be a necessity, as the place originally designated to accept most of the the refugees, Europe, may be backing out of their commitment.

    Parent

    how funny (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:27:45 PM EST
    how funny that there is actually someone here who agrees with me on at least several things . . .

    A lot of people here find ways to be upset with me . . .

    We've got the space I am sure . . . It would cost a few millions of dollars . . .  why not save 10,000 to 200,000 lives and train them to be able to go back?  Earn some gratitude and a few Syrians will go back having experienced America, with a lot less anger and bitterness . . . maybe they can write and read and maybe they know English  and every one who adopts US values or becomes Christian is one less potential terrorist and one more person contriuting to building a safe and sane Syria and Iraq . . .

    let them learn some democracy as well . . .

    Military protection . . . US law governs conduct . . .

    Parent

    Have you ever thought about (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 11:42:03 PM EST
    Using your skills to aid ISIL in their recruitment efforts.i think you would be very successful.

    America putting Syrian refugees into internment camps and actively trying to convert them to Christianity. What could possibly go wrong with that?

    Parent

    "train them to be able to go back?" (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 06:36:29 AM EST
    What in the everloving hell does that mean?

    The overall ignorance reflected in your comment is mind-boggling.

    These are not animals to be trained, they are human beings.  And in a country where a lot of people who call themselves Christians seem to think they can invoke their fractured understanding of what it means to be a Christian in order to demonize and stigmatize across a wide spectrum of other religions and beliefs, it is deeply and richly ironic that you think it helps anyone or anything to bring people here to indoctrinate them in that so-called Christianity.

    It was bad enough when you were here prancing around in your thong, but it's clear to me now that you have treated us to a wider range of your beliefs, thoughts and world view, and given us a more detailed look at how your mind works, that there is no reason to do more than scroll on by anything with your name attached to it.

    Parent

    As you write (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:13:33 PM EST
    a van in Hanover, Germany has been found filled with explosives outside a sports arena.

    Now who has accepted the most so-called "refugees?"

    G E R M A N Y

    turned out to have been false (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:37:53 PM EST
    no explosives found, no imminent threat.

    Parent
    Hmmm (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:38:58 PM EST
    More explosives in this thread than in the van

    Good news

    Parent

    It's Jim (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by CoralGables on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:48:18 PM EST
    most everything from him is false.

    Parent
    True, luckily (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Nemi on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 07:46:24 AM EST
    But while the threat still seemed real the media did write about it ... online too. Among many:

    The Guardian online: Paris attacks: Germany on alert after 'concrete' threat to attack Hanover stadium - as it happened.

    Der Spiegel online had more, albeit in German: Länderspiel-Absage wegen Terrorgefahr: Mit Sicherheit richtig.

    Parent

    As usual the bold lettering (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by jondee on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:32:50 PM EST
    didn't make it any more true.

    Parent
    You know, Jim, it's times like these ... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:53:06 PM EST
    jimakaPPJ: "As you write a van in Hanover, Germany has been found filled with explosives outside a sports arena. Now who has accepted the most so-called 'refugees?' G E R M A N Y"

    ... while listening to you and your fellow nativist crackpots, that I often start to wonder why we didn't just apply your special brand of broad-brushed logic to the entirely of America's white wingbat community back in 1995, when Timothy McVeigh and his friends did the same exact thing outside the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

    Had that been done, you'd likely still be cooling your heels in a concentration camp somewhere in the Arizona desert, and Jeralyn would be spared a whole lot of bandwidth.

    But you know why nobody did that, as tempting as it might have been at the time to use the OKC tragedy as a pretext to round up all those nail-spitting neocons who were calling President Bill Clinton's election fraudulent and worse, and who were urging active resistance by their followers to federal laws and "jack-booted thugs"?

    Because condemning an entire community and / or demographic for the horrific and cowardly acts of a few mindless individuals is both immoral and un-American. Because ours is a country that respects and protects the rights of the individual, which means that your mistakes and sins are entirely your own.

    Think about it -- that is, if you even remember any more how to think for yourself.

    >:(

    Parent

    Donakld, I reported what was on the Internet news, (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:18:41 PM EST
    Should I disregard reliable sources?? Shall I say, forget it! Obama wasn't born in HI??

    As to immoral, you wouldn't know morals if they bit you on the butt,

    Now, give us a couple of hundred words about your Uncle the Priest, or was it your Aunt the Nun, that instructed you.

    lol

    DOnald, we have your number.

    Parent

    "It was on the the Internet News" (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:01:43 PM EST
    so it must be true.

    "Internet News"? WTF is that, anyway?

    Parent

    Odds are better than even that ... (4.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:14:57 AM EST
    ... he means Fox News, Breitbart.com, World Net Daily and Newsmax -- you know, just like there are two kinds of music, country and western.

    Parent
    Gee, then I shouldn't have believed (none / 0) (#195)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 09:45:33 PM EST
    O'Reilly when he said your Dear Leader was born in HI???

    Okie Dokie.

    You may now resume your hissy fit.

    Parent

    It was all over the news (1.00 / 1) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:20:35 PM EST
    Try to pedal faster and keep up.

    Besides, if I told you....you would just snark and be nasty.

    Parent

    You said "internet news" (none / 0) (#156)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 02:44:03 PM EST
    Own it or STFU.

    Parent
    STFU yourself (none / 0) (#193)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 09:43:35 PM EST
    If you can't Google get some training...

    Parent
    It was all over outlets (none / 0) (#194)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 09:45:20 PM EST
    that are eager to horrible things happening so that dipsh#ts like Jim can tell everyone that Obama is weak.

    Parent
    Keep it up, jondee (none / 0) (#196)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 09:47:06 PM EST
    Is dipsh*ts like Jim the best insult you can think of?? Or dare use???

    Oh well, you have shown your limitations time and again.

    Parent

    Why is it always the case, Jim, ... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:11:56 PM EST
    ... that whenever you're confronted with the illogical and often immoral positions of your own inflammatory posts, you resort to personal insults and invectives like a spoiled 12-year-old who doesn't like it when he's not getting his way?

    Don't bothering answering what's simply a rhetorical question, one which merely states aloud what's long since been obvious to almost everyone here -- save, of course, for you.

    Have a nice evening.

    Parent

    lots of insults (none / 0) (#50)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 05:56:45 PM EST
    in this thread, much of them having to do with how the act of demanding basic accountability from the Obama administration on a vital matter of national security is equivalent to being controlled by "fear"

    Obama is shrewd -  he knows that he cannot, for political reasons, publicly admit that we'll be taking in a certain number of "violent extremists" along with the (unvetted) refugees

    the people actually controlled by fear are the ones who are scared to admit, even privately, what is obvious, & what Obama surely knows

    "You can't handle the truth!" --Colonel Nathan R. Jessep


    ... then I would pose to you the same question which I posed to Trevor above:

    "Refugees and asylum seekers are already being screened by an in-depth process that's currently taking an average of two years to complete, before final approval is granted. Exactly what additional steps are you proposing that our federal government take to vet these Syrian refugees, in addition to the ones which are already in place?"

    Speaking for myself only, I'm tired of all the kabuki, in which people rush to condemn both the present immigration process for Syrian refugees and the Obama administration which is responsible for it, without ever bothering to note or itemize any specific concerns about that process -- except for "OMG! Syrians!" -- and while studiously avoiding any offer on their part of a viable alternative / addendum to it.

    So, I'm certainly game for a serious discussion, if you are. Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald, a real discussion (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:22:51 PM EST
    doesn't depend on my answering the question around which you think a real discussion should revolve

    i love you, Donald, but you are one of the worst offenders in this thread & others - very often, your rejoinder to an argument with which you disagree is "Because shut up, & racism!"

    like others here, i have stated my belief that we should bring in the Syrian refugees on humanitarian grounds, & i have also stated my belief that doing so will entail a unique risk that has nothing to do with xenophobia or racism

    i have also stated that Obama cannot publicly say what i just said, which basically makes your leading question moot

    nor is it my job to come up with alternatives or addenda to the Obama administration's policies as a condition of noting FBI director James Comey's concern about vetting the Syrian refugees

    Parent

    What you're engaging in here ... (none / 0) (#101)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 08:28:44 PM EST
    ... is exactly the type of behavior you're decrying. You said that you wanted an honest discussion, and I therefore asked you a legitimate question about the subject. I know what you said earlier about the need to bring in refugees for humanitarian purposes, regardless of the perceived heighten risk, and I do appreciate it.

    But you also clearly intimated that opponents of the president's policy are expressing legitimate concerns here. Yet like all of those critics when asked about the specifics of those concerns, you're now dancing neatly around the question and saying that it's neither your job to provide such specificity, nor offer possible alternatives to the present screening process that's somehow so suddenly and mysteriously wanting.

    Honestly, how does one concretely address these professed concerns about security and safety, when such concerns otherwise appear to be both entirely devoid of actual content and deliberately vague in overall context? I mean, if someone can't explain to me exactly what's wrong here, am I to then simply take his or her word for it, that it's just wrong and further, that it's MY job to find out what it is?

    Speaking as someone who's long made his living as a policy analyst, that's a political black hole from which nothing good or worthwhile can ever emerge. We can't address a perceived security problem when we really don't know what it is, other than a lot of people screaming "Ooh, the scary!" That's how we ended up with the Department of Homeland Security, the PATRIOT Act and Gitmo.

    So, let's please dispense with any further high-minded folderol about wanting an honest discussion, when you and I enjoy a good food fight, the same as everybody else.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald, i have noted James Comey's concerns, (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:08:40 PM EST
    which the FBI director expressed in response to a question from Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-MS):

    Given the abysmal security situation in Syria and the fact that the United States does not maintain a permanent diplomatic presence in the country, it's sometimes difficult for U.S. authorities to gather the information they need to thoroughly vet a Syrian applicant.

    FBI Director James Comey hit on the issue at a congressional hearing last month, when he told lawmakers, "If someone has never made a ripple in the pond in Syria in a way that would get their identity or their interest reflected in our database, we can query our database until the cows come home, but there will be nothing show up because we have no record of them."

    This particularly comes into play when trying to evaluate an applicant's criminal history.

    "In terms of criminal history, we do the best we can with the resources that we have," one senior administration official said.

    Another official emphasized that the vetting process is a holistic one, and they try to take a broader view of an applicant with the available information they're about to aggregate and verify.

    i have also alluded to my considered opinion of the Obama administration's competence in foreign policy, as manifest in Syria & elsewhere

    in view of James Comey's misgivings & my own take on the Obama administration, i find it possible to believe that the governors' protest is not in itself evidence of xenophobia, since i find their misgivings legitimate as a matter of common sense, for starters

    as for alternatives & addenda to the administration's policies, again, that's a job for foreign policy wizards like Ben Rhodes (MFA, creative writing) & all the president's other yes-men

    again, i reserve my right to criticize the Obama administration & to share the FBI director's concerns without supplying alternatives & addenda to the administration's policies as a condition of speaking

    i wonder why you needed me to explain that a second time

    & aloha to you, friend

    Parent

    You may want to check out the actual (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Anne on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:47:35 PM EST
    process for resettlement; here is a link to the US Refugee Admissions Program, and here is one to the Refugees page of the DHS.

    This may also be of interest:

    Resettlement applications are handled by the U.S. State Department. The process takes between 18 and 24 months, and applicants are screened by the Department of Homeland Security and interviewed before being approved to relocate to the U.S. And according to human rights activists, they are among the most stringently screened and vetted applicants who enter the country.

    It makes me wonder if these governors who are so opposed to resettlement are even aware of the process.

    And in looking around, I also found these comments from Marco Rubio, from Ben Cardin's (one of MD's Democratic senators) press page, announcing in June the World Refugee Day Resolution for which Marco Rubio was the co-sponsor (my bold):

    "Recent conflicts and persecution, especially religious persecution, have resulted in the largest number of displaced persons since World War II," said Senator Rubio.  "The U.S. must continue to lead on this issue and work to ensure that refugees who flee war, torture and persecution are provided safe environments to live and thrive‎ in."

    What's Rubio saying now?

    After saying earlier that he would be open to the idea of allowing Syrian refugees into the U.S., Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) said Sunday that "we won't be able to take more refugees" in the wake of the Paris terror attacks.

    "It's not that we don't want to," Rubio said on ABC's "This Week with George Stephanopoulos." "It's that we can't."

    What a guy, eh?

    Parent

    maybe not (none / 0) (#120)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:10:11 PM EST
    It makes me wonder if these governors who are so opposed to resettlement are even aware of the process.

    in any case, they have no legal standing to refuse the refugees entry into their states, which is what makes their protest symbolic

    & i think you must have noticed that i am in favor of bringing in the refugees

    no comment from me on Rubio, whom i ignore

    but, wow, in this thread i've been called Sarah Palin & told i'm a neocon

    the Palin thing i understand - there's a certain type of leftist man who uses Palin as political Viagra when his sacred prejudices are challenged & he can't get it up to make a rational counterargument - is it 2008 all over again?

    & i guess i'm a neocon because i cited James Comey's concerns, said that the governors' misgivings about ISIS are not prima facie evidence of xenophobia, & committed thoughtcrime regarding the president's foreign policy

    not saying you have made those pathetic characterizations, Anne, & thank you for the links to material with which i am familiar - my two green card husbands were both political refugees, both from the Middle East

    Parent

    Given that there are no reliable records (none / 0) (#201)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 10:16:24 PM EST
    in Syria and that fake ID's are readily available...

    How can any of these people be vetted with even a 10% level of confidence.

    BTW - Tegucigalpa (AFP) - Honduran authorities

    have arrested five Syrians intending to make it to the United States with stolen Greek passports, triggering alarm Wednesday in the wake of the Paris attacks launched by Syria-linked jihadists.

    Related Stories

    Honduras detains five Syrians heading for U.S. with stolen Greek passports: police Reuters
    'Three teams' in Paris onslaught as police hunt suspects AFP
    Fate of Paris attacks 'mastermind' unknown after massive raid AFP
    Europe on edge as hunt on for ninth Paris attack suspect AFP
    First attacker identified from Paris carnage AFP
    Buffett dumping stocks Casey Research Sponsored 
    The Syrians were arrested on Tuesday as they flew into Toncontin airport serving the Honduran capital and failed to make it past airport security checks, a police spokesman, Anibal Baca, told reporters.

    Link

    Five caught. How many have slipped through??

    Parent

    You already said all that (none / 0) (#109)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:16:22 PM EST
    You agree with the conservative view that Obama has "retreated" from the world.   Very neocon of you.

    You have said many times that the lack of paperwork is a reason to deny entry to refugees....Got it.  I disagree--based in part on NYShooter's comments that seem well informed.

    You bring nothing new.  

    Parent

    Dittohead (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 11:03:46 AM EST
    I turned on my radio just now and heard the EXACT SAME talking points being spoken by the right wing radio host. Change the narrative...that's the plan.

    It disgusts me how events are used to make political hay while human suffering is ignored.

    Parent

    Speaking for myself (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:06:15 PM EST
    only can we have a calm discussion? No, apparently we cannot because the knee jerk screeching on the right about how we're all gonna die tomorrow. It's reminiscent of the Bush/Cheney crappola about EVERYTHING and it's annoying.

    Parent
    the first comment in this thread (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:23:28 PM EST
    comes from you, GA:

    The GOP is xenophobic so it should come as no surprise. I mean these are the same people that want to round up Hispanics and put them in the box cars.

    i don't call that calm discussion

    admittedly, however, your comment was in response to the short post by Jeralyn, who set the tone (appropriately, since it's her blog):

    Should the U.S. take Syrian refugees? The debate continues as Republicans fall all over themselves, as if they were competing to be elected the next Henny Penny instead of President.

    i was fooled by the title of the post, & by Jeralyn's initial question, which appeared to invite a discussion, not the accumulation of slander, projection, misdirection, disinformation, & ad hominem attacks that followed

    clearly, my comments here are out of line with the established & prevailing tone

    & clearly TalkLeft is anything but TalkLiberal

    that's fine - the Internet is a big place, with something for everyone

    Parent

    Well, (none / 0) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:30:39 PM EST
    the xenophobia reeks out of the GOP these days unfortunately. And apparently we're all gonna die if we take in Muslim refugees just like we're all gonna lose our jobs because of Hispanics.

    Parent
    you seem incapable (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:02:34 PM EST
    of discussing this question, & many many others, outside a framework of vilifying Republicans, & you go from 0 to hyperbole in 2 seconds

    why is that?

    if you would take the trouble to inform yourself about what the opposition is actually up to, in fact rather than in your imagination or the predigested pabulum spewed out by MSNBC, you would find a much more nuanced & diverse set of arguments than the single cartoonish "wingnut welfare" talking point that you continuously cough up like a persistent hair ball

    like me, you would probably disagree with every argument you encountered, but you might be able to do so in a way that furthered discussion instead of turning yourself into the moonbat mirror image of a Dittohead wingnut

    Parent

    Clap (none / 0) (#77)
    by FlJoe on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:12:24 PM EST
    .....clap, very Palinesque.

    Parent
    in what way . . . (none / 0) (#87)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:31:21 PM EST
    since she's the conservative failed former Republican governor of Alaska & failed Republican vice presidential candidate, & i am a liberal Democrat & private citizen from Oakland?

    or maybe your comparison was intended to silence me, or something?

    do tell

    Parent

    Two (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by FlJoe on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:55:31 PM EST
    words, word salad.

    Parent
    i see (none / 0) (#100)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 08:20:13 PM EST
    clearly it was the style of my comment to GA, not the substance

    good to know - i'll dumb it down for you next time

    Parent

    It (none / 0) (#137)
    by FlJoe on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 06:09:23 AM EST
    gets dumber?

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:10:13 PM EST
    Ok (none / 0) (#165)
    by sj on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 04:02:13 PM EST
    Two (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by FlJoe on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:55:31 PM MDT

    words, word salad.

    There are a lot of varieties of word salad dished up here. That comment wasn't even an appetizer -- I followed it both times I read it. Should I find that alarming?

    Parent
    If you google (none / 0) (#81)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:18:27 PM EST
    what some of the people are saying here you can find it verbatim at places like Breitbart. I don't think that a cut and paste poster is really looking for honest opinion.

    FYI I rarely if ever watch MSNBC or any cable channel for that matter.

    Parent

    maybe so, (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:34:28 PM EST
    & if so, so what? why not engage with the point instead of automatically impugning the source?

    or why not just ignore the point if you don't want to engage with it?

    Parent

    Why not worry about yourself (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by vicndabx on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:42:09 PM EST
    And not try to control others?

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#97)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 08:01:02 PM EST
    I wish I had said that (none / 0) (#200)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 10:05:57 PM EST
    Addams, you are not here for honest (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:09:35 PM EST
    discussion.

    You start out with anti-Obama talking points....and then recite the GOP talking points on refugees....

    You do not add perspective, logic or facts to the discussion.   You are happy to fight against the left or liberal take here....

    Just be honest about your take.....instead of trying to sound reasonable while giving us the same talking points...

    Parent

    thanks . . . (none / 0) (#111)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:24:26 PM EST
    for the hot steaming cup of McCarthyism

    i feel sorry for you

    Parent

    Non-sequitur (none / 0) (#112)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:31:08 PM EST
    But standard for you.

    Lots of words.  No new facts....or ideas.

    Parent

    It's the ebola factor (none / 0) (#56)
    by CoralGables on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:07:58 PM EST
    We're all gonna die.

    Parent
    Yeah, (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:15:38 PM EST
    strange how we don't hear about Ebola anymore isn't it?

    Parent
    Same playbook (none / 0) (#63)
    by CoralGables on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:24:02 PM EST
    Just cross out ebola and insert refugee.

    Parent
    Brilliant point, you two (none / 0) (#128)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 10:52:42 PM EST
    Ebola was contained by the strictest imaginable limits on travel.  The contagion was contained.

    More to the point, it wasn't "talked" out of its pathogenicity.

    Parent

    Who is trying to talk (none / 0) (#129)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 11:00:10 PM EST
    ISIS out of its pathology?

    Parent
    No Welcome Mat in Russia, Saudi Arabia et al (none / 0) (#68)
    by RickyJim on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 06:35:43 PM EST
    But no Syrian refugees have been resettled in Persian Gulf nations like Kuwait, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates, countries with significant financial and political interest in Syria.
    ..........
    Officials in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the UAE defend themselves by noting that each has given millions of dollars to the United Nations to help the refugees. The UAE says it's given more than $530 million in relief aid. They stress that Syrians have entered Gulf states on visas, and stayed.

    And they also employ a "What about them?" defense, noting that the Gulf states aren't the only nations not helping give homes to victims of war. Amnesty International points out that other high-income countries like Russia, Japan, Singapore and South Korea have offered zero resettlement options.


    Link


    Well (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 07:39:16 PM EST
    now apparently in Canada they are attacking innocent Muslims, Canadian, citizens and have burned down a Mosque. It only takes a few idiots to make good PR for ISIS. Thankfully I have seen a lot of Canadians stand up and say this is not Canada.  

    you seem to believe (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 08:00:13 PM EST
    that ISIS & other Islamist jihadists actually care what we in the West think of them

    & who would see the burning of a Canadian mosque as "good PR for ISIS"? do you mean that the burning of the mosque will encourage new recruits to ISIS?

    maybe we're touching here on a basic contrast between, on the one hand, those who believe that ISIS is a radical political movement with a basis in negotiable political demands &, on the other hand, those who see ISIS as driven by profoundly reactionary, imperialistic, totalitarian & apocalyptically theocratic demands that brook no negotation at all

    count me firmly in the second camp

    i imagine that you & others here would be in the first camp if you believe that the depredations of ISIS have political rather than psychoreligious origins & solutions

    Parent

    No, I don't think (none / 0) (#98)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 08:07:06 PM EST
    they care. What I do see is they are very good at PR in the middle east. And they use things like that to use as PR weapons for recruits. Frankly I see them as fundamentalist radicals who use religion for their own ends. It plays into their whole victimization thing where there's a war on Islam which they use to attract people.

    The irony is the fundamentalist Christians here in America have the same victim mindset.

    Parent

    needless to say, (none / 0) (#99)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 08:17:15 PM EST
    i am not in favor of burning mosques in Canada or anywhere else

    but i don't think a burned mosque in Canada counts for much in the Islamic State's recruitment efforts

    perhaps a burned mosque provides a brief & satisfying experience of confirmation bias, but the greater incitement is the existence of Canada itself, with or without burning mosques

    Parent

    Winner, winner chicken dinner (none / 0) (#110)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 09:19:37 PM EST
    Most unclear word salad yet.

    Huh?  

    Try an old editing trick:  strike out every other word....it will improve the clarity of your writing.

    Parent

    Who is it that is (none / 0) (#133)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 17, 2015 at 11:26:15 PM EST
    obsessing about enemies infiltrating the U.S.?

    And advocating symbolic action by governors that are admittedly unconstitutional in defiance of federal law?

    There are examples of both in the 1950s and 1960s....but it wasn't liberals who were doing that.  

    well, what do you know (none / 0) (#168)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 04:18:14 PM EST
    some friendly advice from that despicable neocon wingnut xenophobe Kevin Drum:

    Liberals Should Knock Off the Mockery Over Calls to Limit Syrian Refugees

    Mocking Republicans over this . . . seems absurdly out of touch to a lot of people. Not just wingnut tea partiers, either, but plenty of ordinary centrists too. It makes them wonder if Democrats seriously see no problem here. Do they care at all about national security? Are they really that detached from reality? . . . Mocking it is the worst thing we could do. It validates all the worst stereotypes about liberals that we put political correctness ahead of national security. It doesn't matter if that's right or wrong. Ordinary people see the refugees as a common sense thing to be concerned about. We shouldn't respond by essentially calling them idiots. That way lies electoral disaster.

    reflecting on some of yesterday's exchanges, it occurs to me that some commenters here are too young to have experienced what it was like when beltway Democrats, following the voters, turned on Lyndon Johnson & Jimmy Carter

    now it's Obama who's making beltway Democrats nervous, with self-styled progressive fanboys & fangirls doing nothing to keep the wheels attached

    I (none / 0) (#171)
    by FlJoe on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 04:56:33 PM EST
    see Drum's point, but his twitter stream and blog comments are not exactly the main messaging  of the Democratic Party.

    A certain amount of fear among the population is expected but the right is fanning the fear beyond all proportion, very often making mockeries of themselves. I mean denying "orphans under five" is just asking for it.

    Drum is correct that the Democrats need to be careful, the campaign at least for now is all about National Security, and we all know how the fear mongering and war drum beating demagoguery can drown out any reasonable thought.

    FDR once said "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself"

    The Republicans now say "the only thing we have is fear itself"

    An exceptional country never caves to fear, period.

     Accepting he refugees pose a vanishing small danger totally insignificant in the face of all the other threat vectors.

    Refusing the refugees is bowing to the fear, a fear inspired by ISIS, in other words handing them a victory.

    Whose side are you on?

     

    Parent

    whose side am i on? (none / 0) (#175)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:12:45 PM EST
    if you've read my earlier comments, then you know that i think we should accept the Syrian refugees on humanitarian grounds & have said so repeatedly

    we already have ISIS in all 50 states, so it doesn't matter if additional Islamist jihadists slip in among the refugees - the strong horse has left the barn

    Parent

    Your position is thoroghly (none / 0) (#184)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 06:13:53 PM EST
    confused.

    Your energy attacking others here could be better served working on getting your own thoughts straight.

    Parent

    i am not at all confused - one more time:

  • i support the relocation of the refugees to the US on humanitarian grounds
  • we're going to get hit by ISIS in the US one way or another because ISIS is already here & it's stupid to deny it, especially when the denial is for callow & cynical partisan reasons
  • i am calmly going on with my life because there is nothing i can do about ISIS
  • i have attacked no one in this thread but have sometimes chosen to defend myself when gratuitously attacked by you & others
  • i am a liberal Democrat even though you claim that you saw me dancing in the woods with Goody Osborne & the devil


  • Parent
    So, just quibbles (2.00 / 1) (#187)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 07:01:48 PM EST
    about the edges.  A micro-critique....

    Why not launch a major change in policy:

    Let's re-invade Iraq.  And then let's invade and take over Syria.  And when the terrorists move to some other country, we will worry about that then.

    Work for you?

    Parent

    He's on the (none / 0) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:14:27 PM EST
    same side as ISIS it would seem. Fundamentalists both wanting a holy war. He said Ossma Bin Laden was right about a holy war. I mean it's just pure nuts.

    So much fear fries your brain apparently.

    Parent

    Kevin Drum said what? (none / 0) (#188)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 07:37:53 PM EST
    that he wants a holy war? that Osama bin Laden was right?

    link?

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#189)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 08:11:29 PM EST
    not Kevin Drum, Jimppj.

    Parent
    The Governors know (none / 0) (#172)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:03:43 PM EST
    They cannot legally stop any refugees, but they are concerned for the citizens of their state, and why are they concerned, because the Federal Government tells them jack shit. They held a conference call today, and the Feds basically said trust us. I think it is reasonable to question the Federal Government  as to their actions. Until there is some transparency from the most transparent administration ever, more and more politicians will want answers to these questions as they represent their constituents.

    From Bloomberg

    On the call several Republican governors and two Democrats -- New Hampshire's Maggie Hassan and California's Jerry Brown -- repeatedly pressed administration officials to share more information about Syrian refugees entering the United States. The governors wanted notifications whenever refugees were resettled in their states, as well as access to classified information collected when the refugees were vetted.

    "There was a real sense of frustration from all the governors that there is just a complete lack of transparency and communication coming from the federal government," said one GOP state official who was on the call.

    Hassan, one of two Democrats to challenge the administration on the call, had already come out in favor of halting the flow of Syrian refugees to the United States. She expressed anger that state officials aren't notified when Syrian refugees are resettled in their territory.

    Brown said he favored continuing to admit Syrian refugees but wanted the federal government to hand over information that would allow states to keep track of them, the GOP state official said.

    Democratic senators are split on the issue. Senators Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein said Tuesday there may be a need for a pause in accepting Syrian refugees but they both wanted to hear more from the administration about the issue. Sen. Dick Durbin said that refugees aren't the primary source of concern. He pointed to the millions of foreign visitors who enter America each year.

    Parent

    This states rights b.s. (none / 0) (#174)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:10:56 PM EST
    needs to be deep sixed....

    The governors took their public positions right out of the gate.....before they knew anything about this.

    DiFi and Schumer are not the be-all and end-all on foreign policy.   Schumer is a hawk, and is not credible on foreign policy.

    The runaway fear is disappointing.  People are losing their heads over this.

    Parent

    Why (none / 0) (#177)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:19:44 PM EST
    Shouldn't a Governor know how many and where in his/her state overseas refugees and being placed.
    Jerry Brown would also like to know where and how many are being placed.

    The Governor is responsible to the citizens of the state, providing the Governor with this information would seem to be a no brainer? What reason would they deny it?, Unless there is something to hide?  

    Parent

    I am sure the communications (none / 0) (#178)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:24:05 PM EST
    issues will be ironed out.

    But it won't make a difference to the demagogues.....and purveyors of panic.

    Parent

    losing their minds over this (none / 0) (#179)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:24:40 PM EST
    One way ,or the Other (none / 0) (#191)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 08:56:17 PM EST
    Tegucigalpa (AFP) - Honduran authorities have arrested five Syrians intending to make it to the United States with stolen Greek passports, triggering alarm Wednesday in the wake of the Paris attacks launched by Syria-linked jihadists.

    Parent
    People are stating to panic (none / 0) (#173)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:06:39 PM EST
    This is how we ended up invading Iraq in the first place....

    This is how we interned so many Japanese Americans.....

    Just because it is popular does not make it right.  I am glad Obama is not giving in to the demagogues.....

    And, I was around for LBJ and Carter, so your dig there is wrong.

    Parent

    actually (1.00 / 1) (#180)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:30:53 PM EST
    you seem to be the only person in this thread who is having a panic attack - why is that?

    Parent
    This is your attempt (none / 0) (#181)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:34:05 PM EST
    at discussion?

    You are so full of it....

    Parent

    And, sure, some Democrats (none / 0) (#182)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 05:41:29 PM EST
    will cave on this just as they did with respect to the invasion of Iraq.

    You sound quite like a neocon when you talk about Obama's feckless policy in Syria.  You certainly sound like you want to invade Syria....

    Parent

    so Obama's Syria policy is a roaring success? (none / 0) (#183)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 06:09:50 PM EST
    tell that to the refugees

    And, so what would (none / 0) (#185)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 06:17:11 PM EST
    you do?

    Invade?  Implement a more muscular or robust military response in Syria?

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 18, 2015 at 08:34:51 PM EST
    article link

    61% of Americans were against allowing Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany come to America in 1939. There was an actual boat of them that was turned away by us, Cuba and Canada.