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Over the Vain-Bow

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Tue Nov 24, 2015 at 10:31:02 PM EST
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I would have loved to read Carly Simon's memoirs 30 years ago. Now, I could care less.

The parade of famous men she recounts sleeping with are all now in their 70's. No one is going to read about her exploits now and say "I wish it were me."

I doubt anyone who remembers wondering who "You're So Vain" was about 45 years ago could care less about the answer now. Maybe she needs the money, but I think the only people who will read this book are those vain enough to wonder if they're mentioned in it.

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    Over the Vain-Bow | 60 comments (60 topical)

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    Wrting memoirs at 40 years of age (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by CoralGables on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 07:38:38 AM EST
    as you suggest would clearly fall under the heading of "I'm So Vain"

    Yes, it would.... (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by NYShooter on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 11:11:59 AM EST
    Wrting memoirs at 40 years of age:

    "Dreams From My Father/The Audacity Of Hope"

    Parent

    The audacity of (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 01:13:55 PM EST
    writing two memoirs b/4 __ yrs. of age.

    Parent
    If you don't do it well (none / 0) (#21)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 09:12:15 PM EST
    Dreams is outstanding literature.....

    Parent
    I love this post (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 11:24:16 AM EST
    Not sure I agree with all of it, but I love it anyway. I have had the same thoughts about the aging sex idols - hard to imagine getting worked up about them...but I do remember.

    I'm a sucker for '70s pop/rock music lore, so I will probably read it at some point.

    I still have a lot of her records on vinyl, from back when it was a real decision to fork out $7.99 on a record, so I guess I am a fan. She was a style icon as a teen, to the extent we had any style in the 70s besides jeans and peasant tops and long hair parted in the middle. I do think she was my floppy hat role model.

    Actually come to think of it, I got one or two of my records from the Columbia Record Club as my 'free' selections!

    Later I learned that her reluctance to perform concerts was due to her issues with stuttering, which I share. I wonder if she goes into that at all in the book.


    She performed one of the better James Bond theme (1.00 / 2) (#20)
    by McBain on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 08:46:15 PM EST
    songs, Nobody Does It Better, for my favorite Roger Moore Bond film, The Spy Who Loved Me.  I'm assuming Moore is on her list.

    I won't read the book but it raises some interesting questions about female promiscuity.

    lol. interesting assumptions, mcbain (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 01:54:50 PM EST
    To me it sounds as if she was taking advantage of being advantaged in a [n a****] male dominated world.

    But how would I know?  I haven't read the book either.

    My recommendation?  Begin your remedial reading with Sarah Blaffer Hrdy.

    Parent

    "female promiscuity"?? (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by sj on Mon Nov 30, 2015 at 12:26:19 PM EST
    So a man with multiple sex partners is just being a man doing manly stuff, but apparently a woman is promiscuous.

    I don't think there are any really interesting social questions in your comment, but there is an interesting example of male vacuity.

    Parent

    Call it an unfair double standard if you want (none / 0) (#37)
    by McBain on Mon Nov 30, 2015 at 05:28:58 PM EST
    Lots of people, especially women, have issues with other women sleeping around.  We still live in a somewhat uptight, puritan society.

    Parent
    You're the one who brought up (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 12:18:41 AM EST
    "female promiscuity." Seems your the one with an issue.

    Parent
    Not really shoephone (none / 0) (#39)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 01:13:28 AM EST
    I just find the topic interesting.  The 70s weren't perfect but we were less uptight about sex.   Then AIDS ruined things a bit.  

    Parent
    Is that the Royal WE? (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 07:30:32 AM EST
    We are not more uptight about sex. You and members of the Republican Party are uptight about sex when people other than themselves have sex.

    Much like forcing "abstinence only" sex only education, attacks on Planned Parenthood and women's health initiates here at home and  "abstinence only" AIDS programs aboard, it is the Rebublican Party who wants to control other people's sex lives while they pursue that which they publicly condemn through their speeches and legislaion.

    Parent

    As usual, assumptions about me in here are wrong (none / 0) (#42)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 10:04:20 AM EST
    We = USA

    One of the reasons I'm not a Republican is their stance on abortion and sex ed.  

    Now, do you really disagree with me?

    Parent

    Yes, I still disagree with your (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 02:32:47 PM EST
    use  of the terminology "female promiscuity" and your unsubstantiated assumptions that  WE as a country are more uptight about sex so that somehow warrants you applying that label to a woman.

    You choose the "woman shaming" terminology and the rational to justify your actions. It is your issue and it is the same type of rhetoric used by Rebublicans when pursuing there anti-women agendas.


    Parent

    What questions would those be? (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 08:21:14 AM EST
    And whose questions are they - yours?

    And why would they need to be asked?

    I suppose the question I would have would not be about how much sex Carly Simon was having, or with whom she was having it, but why her having it gets the negative tag of "promiscuous."  

    I also have a question about your assumption that Roger Moore is "on her list:" why would you assume this - because if she was having a lot of sex, she "must have" had it with him, too?

    I don't know that this is at all about female promiscuity as much as it is about how territorial and proprietary men are about the women they have sex with.

    Parent

    Here are a couple questions.... (none / 0) (#43)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 10:13:10 AM EST
    Why do women still get a bad rep if they sleep around?

    How many sex partners is acceptable for a woman to have before marriage? Compared to men?  

    You can give your opinion or what you think the general opinion of our country is.  

    Parent

    Here are some better questions (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 11:39:10 AM EST
    If you haven't read the book, how do surmise that C. Simon was promiscuous? Was she? Are you sure? How many partners are required for someone to be considered promiscuous? Is the number different for men then women? What is the number for women?

    Most importantly, why are you so interested in who Carly Simon slept with?

    Parent

    Answers (none / 0) (#45)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 12:22:44 PM EST
    If you click on the link Jeralyn provided, as I did, you can read about a few of Simon's sex partners and love interests.  Based on that, I would say she was promiscuous but I don't have a problem with it.

    Like it or not, the number required to be considered promiscuous in our society is different for men and women.  I would say for a 35 year old woman, that number is around 10.  For a 35 year old man, around 50.

    Parent

    I dunno (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by CST on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 12:24:58 PM EST
    In the society I live in, no one asks, and no one tells, because no one cares.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 01:12:56 PM EST
    Apparently, some older men are still fixated on it.

    Parent
    honestly (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by CST on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 02:39:56 PM EST
    The idea of a single 35 year old asking another single 35 year old how many partners they've had is pretty laughable, and frankly, would say a lot more about the person asking than whatever the answer is.  And if those people aren't single - then it's even more laughable.  The only really challenging answer you could give at that age is zero - because it means you've made it 35 years without being in a serious relationship.

    Parent
    Those are your requirements (none / 0) (#50)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 02:43:45 PM EST
    Those are not society's standards.

    Parent
    No, those aren't my requirements or standards (none / 0) (#51)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 04:20:32 PM EST
    I have a very open mind about sex and relationships. I believe women should have multiple sex partners before they get married. I don't believe in "woman shaming".  That's the oldest trick women use to lower the value of other females.  
       

    Parent
    You are the one who put the numbers (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 05:27:51 PM EST
    to what qualifies as promiscuous behavior. They are your standards as you clearly stated in your previous comment. no one other than McBain wrote this. It is yours.

    I would say for a 35 year old woman, that number is around 10.  For a 35 year old man, around 50.


    Parent
    You still don't get it (none / 0) (#53)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 06:25:26 PM EST
    I guess you didn't read the entire thread.  That's OK, I don't always read every single post either.  But if you did read them all you'd probably understand better.

    That was my response (best guess) to shoephone's questions... I was careful to include the words "in our society" which you left out of my quote.

    I usually don't have a problem with women who sleep around but our somewhat puritanical country still does. I find that interesting in a day and age when abortion is legal and safe and contraception is easy to come by.  No, I'm not saying abortion is bad, I'm saying there shouldn't be as big a stigma with female promiscuity as there was years ago when unwanted childbirth was a common consequence of casual sex.

    Maybe Carly Simon is brave for writing about her sex life? Maybe she just needs the money as Jeralyn suggested. Either way, I find this topic raises interesting questions.  I assume you agree, since you've taken the time to respond.

    Now, go ahead and twist my words into some kind of attack on women or liberals. I find that interesting too.  

    Parent

    I read the thread (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 07:17:09 PM EST
    I don't think I missed anything you wrote. You and only you, choose to comment on Simon's so called promiscuous behavior and then proceeded to you gave us your interpretation on what constitutes societies norms to back up you initial comment.

    For someone who claims he doesn't have a problem with women who "sleep around," you are the only one who made a comment on Simon being promiscuous. You are also the only one in the thread who assigned numbers on how many partners a woman must have to be considered promiscuous.

    You use negative phrases (promiscuous, sleeping around) in describing woman who have multiple sex partners and then go "who me" when someone calls you on it. Our society did not write your comments. You did.

    Parent

    Perhaps if you had replaced the phrase (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 07:53:14 PM EST
    "women who sleep around" with something like, "women with a healthy and varied sex life," it might be possible to believe what you think you're saying.  Do you even register the difference between saying "female promiscuity" and "women who regard sex no differently than men do?"

    But you insist on using slut-shaming terminology to describe women whose sex lives are not limited to one person, and that's why your words that you don't "usually" have a problem with that ring hollow.

    Just calling it "female promiscuity" is telling; if you don't think it's a problem - usually - then why do you keep referring to it with such a negative label?  It would be like saying you didn't usually have a problem with "n-word(s)" - if you were a person of color, would you believe someone was not looking through a negative racial lens if they kept saying things like that?  I kind of doubt it.

    "Society" isn't some separate thing, it is all of us - and as long as you keep using negative terminology to describe the extent of a woman's sexual history, you're keeping that negative connotation alive.

    You might also consider that those who are pushing back against you are women; you don't seem to have any understanding that your words may mean one thing to you, but they mean something else to the women who are reading them.  They - we - have been trying to tell you this, and you're just not getting it.

    You could learn something from this, or you can keep insisting that you're an enlightened man; sorry to tell you that you're not coming across as enlightened - you're pretty much coming across as a d!ck.

    Parent

    Says the woman who uses an insult (1.25 / 4) (#56)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 08:40:57 PM EST
    You started out with a legitimate point.  Unlike MO, you get what I'm saying.  But you had to ruin your post with name calling. You even brought race into the conversation somehow.    

    I agree we need better terminology than "female promiscuity".  I don't like any of the options you came up with but I understand your point.

    I'll update my previous post here....

    While I don't have problems with women who...
    (have a healthy, promiscuous sex life with multiple partners)
    ... I do seem to have problems with angry women who aren't getting any.

    Parent

    Because, of course, the only reason (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 09:12:55 PM EST
    a woman could find fault with your attitude and messaging is if she isn't "getting any."

    Too much sex, not enough sex...tell us, Goldilocks, how much would be juuuust right?

    Maybe...you just have a problem with women.


    Parent

    Everyone, including MO, (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 09:51:35 PM EST
    got what you were saying. Each and every new comment you reinforce what we already knew.

    Boy, are you reverting back to form for all and sundry to see. The women are being mean to poor little old you so they must not be getting any sex.

    You are a joke and a pretty pitiful one at that.

    Parent

    Keep digging. (none / 0) (#57)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 08:55:04 PM EST


    Parent
    He will need (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Zorba on Tue Dec 01, 2015 at 08:59:10 PM EST
    another shovel soon, because he's wearing out his current one due to over-use.

    Parent
    My mother was right 40+ years ago. (none / 0) (#1)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 04:41:19 AM EST
    She said that "You're So Vain" was about Warren Beatty, while my elder sister insisted that it was about Mick Jagger. As for me, I was too young to understand why it mattered. And other than as an answer to a question about '70s pop culture trivia, you're absolutely right -- it really doesn't matter at all any more.

    I will say in retrospect, though, that Carly Simon penned one helluva catchy tune, which in my honest opinion still holds up today. "You're So Vain" is the ultimate breakup / putdown song. I doubt that Warren Beatty cares; he's been happily married to Annette Bening since 1992, and they have four children together.

    Aloha.

    I guess I am in the minority here (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by vml68 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 11:47:31 AM EST
    but that song just grates on my nerves. I absolutely hate it.

    Parent
    I Used to be In That Same Frame... (none / 0) (#13)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 12:36:53 PM EST
    ...then I saw 'Dick' and the song in the movie is clearly directed at Nixon.  Not sure I would say I like, but I dislike it less and when I hear it, I always think of Nixon & Co.

    Parent
    If you're in a minority, it's a substantial one. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 06:55:19 PM EST
    I know a number of people who dislike that song. I'm not all that big a fan of Carly Simon myself, having figured her for a corporate sellout ever since her song "Anticipation" became a commercial jingle for Heinz ketchup.

    Parent
    I'm not a huge fan of (none / 0) (#17)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 07:12:24 PM EST
    Carly Simon, either.  (Although I always did like her duets with  James Taylor.)
    I liked Carole King much better.

    Parent
    Since we know the song was never about (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by CoralGables on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 07:33:28 PM EST
    James Taylor,

    here's James proving he's not so vain

    Parent

    James is a peach (none / 0) (#22)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 10:21:39 PM EST
    A genuinely kind, naturally shy, and humble human being.

    Parent
    Carly Simon was fine (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 08:11:15 PM EST
    But no where close to Carol King IMO. Her album "Tapestry" still remains one of my all time favorites.

    Parent
    lol; I liked Joni Mitchell better than either, (none / 0) (#25)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:01:43 PM EST
    but I still liked Carly Simon a lot.

    Parent
    I love Joni Mitchell, too (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Zorba on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 10:45:47 AM EST
    And Joan Baez.  And Emmylou Harris.  And Buffy Sainte-Marie.

    Parent
    Linda Ronstadt had the best voice (none / 0) (#29)
    by McBain on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 11:39:32 PM EST
    with a great variety of work

    Parent
    Yeah, Joni Mitchell, (none / 0) (#30)
    by NYShooter on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 12:07:39 AM EST
    she was great, what a voice!

    Parent
    A lot of us (none / 0) (#3)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 09:07:11 AM EST
    back then just figured that it was about Warren Beatty.  I did, and so did most of my friends.     ;-)

    Parent
    I thought (5.00 / 10) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 09:46:50 AM EST
    It was about me.

    Parent
    It was, Warren, (none / 0) (#26)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:02:58 PM EST
    Oops - I mean, Captain Howdy.

    Parent
    I remember being somewhat pleased... (none / 0) (#33)
    by unitron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 10:19:12 PM EST
    ...with myself for spotting that it was Jagger singing along towards the end of the song.

    This was way back before we could get instant confirmation of that sort of thing on the Google machine.

    Parent

    A friend of mine (none / 0) (#5)
    by CST on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 09:48:49 AM EST
    Painted Carly Simon's brother's house.

    That's all.

    A friend of mine (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 10:35:47 AM EST
    ...was a singer in Carly's band, and they remain friends.

    She is married to my longtime associate and two time Grammy winner Bill Champlin.

    Parent

    I remeber when she was singing folk (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 10:39:08 AM EST
    with her sister Lucy, I had an unrequited crush on her even then..lol

    Parent
    You weren't alone, jondee (none / 0) (#27)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:07:46 PM EST


    Parent
    I dont know,the cover of No Secrets (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 10:22:12 AM EST
    still reminds me that there were one or two good things about the Seventies..

    Parent
    As I recall, most of her album covers.... (none / 0) (#32)
    by unitron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 10:15:44 PM EST
    ...have been "inspirational".

    Parent
    Could'a been her 50 Megawatt Smile (none / 0) (#34)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 12:55:53 PM EST


    Parent
    In the seventies there was so much white powder (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 11:46:21 AM EST
    flying around recording studios, you'd think you were in the Alps..

    Frank Zappa said at the time, more-or-less tongue-in-cheek, that the LA music scene was a front for a giant cocaine money laundering operation..

    I won't be reading Simon's memoir. (none / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 25, 2015 at 01:16:09 PM EST
    But, I must say, Frank Langella's was a really good read.

    Patti Smith's (none / 0) (#23)
    by desertswine on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 12:56:43 AM EST
    "Just Kids" is a brilliant and beautiful memoir.

    Thanks for the reminder (none / 0) (#36)
    by sj on Mon Nov 30, 2015 at 12:30:02 PM EST
    I've been meaning to read the book but haven't had as much time to read lately as I'd like.

    I do, however, spend way more time than I'd like in traffic. So I just got the audio book.

    Parent

    I'd vote for Patti Smith for President (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 03:57:11 PM EST


    Over the Vain-Bow | 60 comments (60 topical)

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