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Thursday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 08:55:26 AM EST
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Busy day. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Thursday Open Thread | 200 comments (200 topical)
    Tax-Refund Fraud (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 11:55:48 AM EST
    Tax-refund fraud is expected to soar again this tax season, and hit a whopping $21 billion by 2016, from just $6.5 billion two years ago, according to the Internal Revenue Service.
    ...
    One of the main reasons for the rapid growth is that it takes so little to file a false return--just your your name, date of birth and Social Security number. (Perhaps not coincidentally, this was among the information taken in last week's huge hack on health insurer Anthem. See "What Anthem breach victims need to do now.")
    ...
    The IRS is well-aware of the magnitude of the problem. But budgetary constraints and legal mandates have created a system where it is often unable to follow up on the red flags that its system throws up until after a refund check has been cut and sent.
    ...
    Here's a conspicuous flaw in the system as currently set up: To file a tax return electronically, all someone needs is a name, date of birth and an SSN. The IRS accepts tax filings as soon as Jan. 1, but employers aren't required to submit correct employment information to the agency until March, by which time roughly half of all refunds have been paid out. (For that matter, the IRS doesn't begin matching employer-submitted data to tax returns until the summer.)
    ...
    In other words, an imaginative crook in possession of the three basic items of a person's identity could make up fake W-2 information and submit it, and get the money within 30 days--the amount of time the law says that the agency must refund tax filers.
     LINK

    I have no doubt our republican Congress is hot on fixing 'budgetary constraints and legal mandates' that plague the IRS.  Nope the House is busy passing the 56th Anti-Obamacare Measure.

    Speaking of(courtesy of CoralGables in another post):
    ObamaCare Signups Surge in Southern States

    Signups for ObamaCare are surging in southern states, with increases of nearly 100 percent in some states compared to last year, federal health officials said Wednesday.

    Texas, Louisiana, South Carolina and Mississippi have each seen 80 percent more signups compared to last year, Deputy Administrator Andy Slavitt said.

    House Republicans are too busy screwing over their own constituents to bother with it's actual responsibilities.

    Somebody (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 07:19:20 AM EST
    used my husband's ssn a while back it caused our tax returns to be rejected by the IRS stating that we had already filed a claim. The good news is this person's return got hung up in their computers because he was filing single. The bad news was our tax return had to go under investigation along with the other one because they had to figure out which one was the legit one. So it took until August to get the refund when I filed in February. And now we have to have a pin number sent to us every year by the IRS to use when we file.

    Parent
    Good Lord (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 07:41:53 AM EST
    I am so sorry.

    Parent
    I Ue Turbo Tax... (none / 0) (#36)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:15:41 AM EST
    ...and I have always had to use a pin.  I should probably change it from my bday, but damn I use it for like two weeks a year so it has to be something I can remember.

    Sorry to hear about your experience, that blows.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:17:02 AM EST
    this is an additional pin sent to you by the IRS. We always had to do the pin using the AGI but now we have to enter an additional one.

    Parent
    This happened to my mom last year (none / 0) (#3)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 12:03:05 PM EST
    Although it turned out not to be fraud, but rather, a transposed SSN entered into the IRS's system, it was WEEKS for her to straighten out, not to mention the stress and fear of what it would take to clean up.

    Scary.

    Parent

    I wish the... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:58:22 AM EST
    NY State Dept. of Taxation & Finance had such budget and manpower constraints...those bastards audited my broke arse and sent an assessment bill again, 4th year in a row.  Surely there is more money in auditing millionaires and billionaires, but what do I know....  

    The IRS is a dream compared to them, I already got my return check in the mail, which enabled me to pay the state back on time before I incurred more penalties and interest.  Thanks IRS!

    Parent

    Rant add... (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:03:08 AM EST
    And the forms...why is the federal 1040EZ form one simple straightforward page a monkey could fill out and the simplest state form is 4 pages of overly-complicated pain in the arse?

    And I still say that deduction was legitimate due to instructional vaguery...but it's only money, and I guess they need/value it more than me.

    Parent

    While I never look forward to doing my (none / 0) (#81)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:52:41 AM EST
    taxes, I am almost giddy at the thought of not having to file NY taxes this year.
    Still have to file NJ taxes for the first half of the year.
    Next year, no state taxes! I guess there are some pros to living in FL.


    Parent
    Big plus... (none / 0) (#85)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:14:08 PM EST
    in the FLA column, I hear ya...though the social services and infrastructure and such suffer for it.

    Reminds me of my first audit from NYS...when I moved back from FLA and they tried to hit me for state tax for the last year I lived in FLA.  I won that challenge, I even dropped the phrase "erroneous findings" on 'em in my challenge letter...maybe I put myself on their hitlist for being a wise arse;)

    Parent

    You just had to make me feel bad, didn't ya? (none / 0) (#95)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:57:13 PM EST
    though the social services and infrastructure and such suffer for it.

    Can I redeem myself by saying that I always overpay a little when I file my state and federal taxes?  I count on the fact that they know if they audit me they will owe me money instead of the other way around. It is my idea of insurance against audits.

    Parent

    Unbelievably, my AMX card was compromised (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by fishcamp on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 08:21:13 PM EST
    again one hour ago.  This is the third time in four months. This time someone charged $200 to Dish TV., which I'v never subscribed to, and an unknown amount to Comcast.  So my AMX card is NG until next Wednesday, when they send a new one to me, which, of course, means next Friday due to living down here at the very end of the US, where everything is slow.  Living rural I am forced to go online to  buy certain house goods, since we don't have the city stores to go to to buy stuff.  I try to use cash most of the time, but it's not always possible.  It just pisses me off that the world is so dishonest.  I would love to catch one of these f'ers, and take them for a fast boat ride out to the Gulfstream.

    Oh, no! Not again! (none / 0) (#24)
    by Zorba on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 09:39:50 PM EST
    Have you thought of ditching American Express and trying Visa or MasterCard?  Of course, they get ripped off, too.
    Does AMX have any idea about how your card is being compromised?  Is a particular store, website, or restaurant involved?  Or do they know?

    Parent
    Well , the phony charges are mostly (none / 0) (#40)
    by fishcamp on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:34:03 AM EST
    TV and cell phone types.  The first two months were from Rogers TV store in Canada.  AMX knows this but it doesn't seem to help.  I'v had several conversations with them and a plan is forming, I think.

    Parent
    An Old GF had Her Idenity 'Stolen'... (none / 0) (#42)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:41:31 AM EST
    ...somewhat.  They took out a credit card for Sam's, never used it, and opened a Victoria Secret's account and charged less than $300 worth of merchandise.

    The good news is some thefts don't have high goals.

    We believed that the theft lived in our apartment complex and either stole or was mistakenly received some of the GF's mail.

    Parent

    A friend who practiced consumer law (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:04:56 AM EST
    uses one credit card for all on line purposes.  She uses other cards for everything else.

    Parent
    Your other friend... (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:40:46 AM EST
    who practices breaking the law uses a prepaid cc for online purchases, money orders for mailed payments, and cash for everything else.

    I look at the associated fees as a "financial rackets liberation tax", and well worth it, but for somebody like fishcamp they might be worth it for peace of mind alone.  Just never load more on the prepaid than you're gonna spend right away and ya can't get burned.

     

    Parent

    Well the Good Thing about AmEx... (none / 0) (#39)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:29:26 AM EST
    ...is they don't play around with removing charges.

    I have never had an issue, and I am pretty loose with the number online.  But they are going to get me one of these days, just dumb luck they haven't already.

    I do have tips being adjusted fairly frequently.  But the hassle of to get a buck or two back is just not worth it, and that stinks.  I am an excellent tipper, but people still feel the need to take more.

    Parent

    That's why legitimate vendors... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:45:12 AM EST
    hate Amex...a couple of the customers at my place have had to stop accepting Amex because they got burned big time by their customers disputing legitimate charges, and Amex never paying up.

    For a peek at the other side of the credit card sob story file...

    Parent

    AMX is very quick to question me (none / 0) (#44)
    by fishcamp on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:45:14 AM EST
    when I make an online charge where the card is not present, and that's how we figured out the recent scams.  Nothing irregular seems to happen when I charge with my card in hand.  I think Oculus' idea of using a different card for online purchases is excellent.  Thanks for that.  Maybe I need to go up to the mall in Miami more often, but the Apple store is there with all that stuff I want.

    Parent
    My old, but speedy MBP (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by fishcamp on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:57:15 AM EST
    is separating at the corner where the lid and screen meet the bottom of the computer.  I have it gaffer taped together for now.   It could be dangerously expensive to go to the mall.  There's also weirdos and carjackers galore up there, however they should never underestimate the abilities of an old guy.  I keep some heavy duty tricks in my car.  There's a cowboy store on the way to Miami, wonder if they sell whips?

    Parent
    Childhood - HuffingtonnPost (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Slado on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 04:17:15 AM EST
    This issue seems to have turned into a cause for me as my wife and I raise three children.  The article shows how times have changed in terms of how involved parents are in managing their kids free time and especially how the need to succeed robs kids of time to make their own memories and experiences.

    Huffington Post

    Growing up I had three good friends in grade school that I remain close to today.  When we get together we always talk about the experiences we shared together on our own unscheduled or supervised.  We never talk about sports teams or little leagues we played in.

    Parents for some reason feel if their child isn't spending his free time occupied in an activity he's fall behind.   All kids need to have some sort of hobby or skill development but as usual it's a question of balance and right now when I look around I see to many kids whose lives are out of whack and its the parents who are responsible.

    I heard about some of this recently on (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 07:49:12 AM EST
    NPR.  Our economy doesn't allow for our children to develope slowly or make many mistakes.  Today's parents also spend more one on one time with their children mostly involved in homework and studying.  Moms aren't cooking dinner.  The kitchen table no longer has place settings on it.  It has a fast food bag and books and notebooks on it.

    I completely related to what the current studies are showing.  I have a disabled child and the safety net has been destroyed.  When I am dead he must still swim.  I am grateful that he is bright, he is also pushed.

    Parent

    I had anti-helicopter parents (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by CST on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:28:00 AM EST
    In an age of helicopter parents - you wouldn't believe the things people said about my parents, because they let us ride the train or go places on our own at a fairly young age.

    I studied abroad at 16.  When I was 17 I was visiting college campuses on my own and the other parents/teachers were shocked and mildly horrified.  When I was 18, the college I was already admitted to and had enrolled in for the fall, had a social gathering for incoming students in Boston for students from the area (the school itself was in Pittsburgh) - I was the only person to show up without my parents.  It hadn't even occurred to me that they might come.

    I guess my point in all this is that it is entirely possible to buck the trend.  You just have to not care what the other mommies in the playground think of you.  Because they will talk smack.

    Parent

    The smack talk can be dealt with; it's (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:15:21 AM EST
    the calls to Social Services or the cops that can make life difficult.

    But it's so much more than that, really.  Kids just don't have any room to grow and breathe and learn how to make decisions or know what it is they actually want, because their parents are micro-managing and over-scheduling their lives.

    I've always believed that my job as a parent was to prepare my children to be their own, confidant people who could stand on their own and function in the world. That didn't mean neglecting them, or not being there for them when they needed me, or being indifferent to what was going on in their lives, or advocating for them when the situation called for that.

    People thought we were crazy to allow our older daughter to make a cross-country trip with a group of friends the summer after she graduated from high school - and I won't say that we never worried, but they had a wonderful time and it was kind of a coming-of-age thing for all of them.  

    Now that both my daughters have children of their own, I'm hoping they will not be helicopter parents!  

    Parent

    If I had told my parents that I wanted to go (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:42:45 AM EST
    on a trip with just my friends after high school, they would have never given me permission.
    But, coming to the U.S on my own for the very first time at 18 to go to college, no problem!

    Parent
    Me Too... (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:08:58 AM EST
    ...I grew up on farm with absentee parents.  What is on a farm, endless amounts fo gasoline and a lot of guns/ammo with no neighbors.  We also had snowmobiles, motorcycles, and 3 wheelers, we didn't have helmets.  I remember the first motorcycle my dad bought us, we were so young, my brother could not touch the ground.  I would have to hold it so he could take off, and then catch him, which at times I didn't do just to laugh.

    My brother doesn't let his kids go out to the farm because there are dangerous weapons everywhere.  He said he caught his daughter chasing around his son with a 10 tine pitch fork and that was it.  They were like 6 & 4.  I laugh because they aren't my kids and we did the same stuff.

    I remember one time my dad came home and wanted to know why there were large brown circles of grass out back.  We never told him that we used to fill-up soda cans with gas, light the top, then blast them with a shotgun to make a huge fireball.  Unknown to us, not all the gas burned and in a couple days turned the grass brown.

    I am not condoning it, but I feel sorry for these kids with book bags so big they need wheels, and being forced to where helmets and be in before dark, and never a moments peace.  There has to be a happy medium where you kid can kickit, raise a little hell, yet not end up in a wheel chair.

    I remember the helicopter kids in college, they were so unwholly prepared for reality that some of them just could not handle the party life or the stress of being on their own.  So sad.  I can only imagine how home schooled kids fared.

    Parent

    We have a farm (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:07:45 PM EST
    And I was pretty much always home, but since we have over 60 acres, half (or more) of the time, I didn't know exactly where my kids were.  They were out somewhere on the farm.  Doing their chores, taking a walk in the woods, picking wild blackberries or wild raspberries or wild grapes, etc.
    They had watches.  They knew to get home for meals.  As long as they did their homework and their farm chores, their free time was their own.
    That's pretty much how I was raised, although in a suburban environment.  We'd get on our bikes and go.

    Parent
    You sound (none / 0) (#50)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:30:12 AM EST
    like such an awesome person. Would love to meet you in person one day.

    Parent
    haha thanks! (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by CST on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:42:03 AM EST
    A Talkleft meetup would be so cool.  I know the NYers do it sometimes but I've never been around for it.

    That being said - my parents are probably cooler than me :)

    Parent

    Maybe we could have a TL (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by fishcamp on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:18:24 AM EST
    meetup in Cuba, since they do seem to be getting closer to lifting the embargo.  Iliana Ross Lehtinen and her domino playing anti Castro people would make sure the Communists of Cuba would not let us enter nor leave, if we did get in.  Guess I'll have to get a bigger boat if we do go.  We will definitely need a large contingent of lawyers with us.  I elect Yman as Sgt. at Arms, with Donald as historian, and KeysDan as liaison.  I'll just drive the boat.  kdog can be in charge of the medical supplies.  Zorba, we'll need gallons of Tzatziki.  Get your passports in order.

    Parent
    We've dreamed of it for years... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:23:39 AM EST
    one of us just has to hit Powerball and it's on!  Setting sail for Cuba with Admiral Fishcamp at the helm is an excellent choice.

    I believe squeaky, MT, ruffian, oculus, and I hold the record of 5 TLers in one meet.  

    Parent

    Shortest route to Cuba is (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by ragebot on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:30:07 PM EST
    Sombrero Key to Varadero.  The best beaches in Cuba are there as well as good marinas.  About 85 miles on the rhumb line.  Problem is Varadero is closed to foreign boats till March when, if you believe the Cuban government, the garbage dump to handle trash from all the foreign boats will be completed.  US Customs just opened a new office in Marathon for return traffic.  I am getting my bottom cleaned at the end of the month and heading South.  Leave at one PM and eat breakfast in Varadero.

    Parent
    The pirate crew stands ready and (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:34:30 PM EST
    more than willing to sail to Cuba and make landfall there upon.

    Plans wil commence just as soon as fishcamp gives us the word.

    Parent

    Let me add, it has always (none / 0) (#121)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:35:54 PM EST
    been the preference of the pirate crew to sail the warmer of the 7 Seas. :-)

    Parent
    yes! (none / 0) (#124)
    by CST on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:43:44 PM EST
    Please, someone, anyone, rescue me from the great white north.

    Parent
    And the proof... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:20:04 AM EST
    is in the pudding!

    I think the best part of having anti-helicopter parents comes later, after you grow up and finally get to tell them all the stories of mischief and adventure you got into while they were letting you do your thing.

    And in turn, their stories of same before you were born.  Turns out I'm a choir boy compared to my pops...big time!

    Parent

    Parents can now face arrest (none / 0) (#67)
    by MO Blue on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:44:25 AM EST
    Debra Harrell, 46, let her 9-year-old daughter play outside alone at the park. The South Carolina child had a cellphone she could use to call her mother in case of emergency. On the girl's third day alone at the park, someone asked her where her mother was. The girl said her mom was at work. (Harrell works at McDonald's and didn't want her daughter to have to sit inside the restaurant for hours on a beautiful summer day.) The result? Harrell was arrested for "unlawful conduct towards a child" and put in jail; her daughter is now in the custody of the department of social services.


    Parent
    I remember that story... (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:51:32 AM EST
    absolutely criminal...the authorities, that is.

    Parent
    We live a block away from a county park (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by MO Blue on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:07:52 PM EST
    The neiborhood kids, including my own, were allowed to go to the park on their own when they were nine. Quite a few kids still roam the neighborhood on foot and on their bikes. Not completely sure how old most of the current bunch are but they are not much older, if at all.

    OTOH, one of my friends granddaughters lives in a well to do neighborhood in the city. Her house is less than one half a block from the school and she must be taken and  picked up from school by a parent or a designated adult. The school will not allow her to walk the 3 or 4 houses by herself. She must be picked up.

    Parent

    Are you sh*tting me? (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:22:57 PM EST
    Ya can't walk 4 blocks to school and back?  I was walking to school by myself in 2nd grade....with cash and instructions to stop at the deli and buy a pack of cigarettes for my mom on the way home.

    Parent
    Welome to life today (none / 0) (#92)
    by nycstray on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:35:42 PM EST
    link

    Parent
    I can top that (none / 0) (#100)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:14:59 PM EST
    I was walking to school by myself from the latter part of kindergarten.  The principal wanted the parents to stop coming to meet the kids after the first week of school, but my mom didn't feel comfortable about that and used to wait around the corner for me, until late in the school year.
    Partly, it may have been because my English wasn't all that great when I first started kindergarten.  My first language was Greek, and although I understood English to a certain extent, my speaking it was poor.  Eventually that year, though, I was chattering away in English, and I guess she felt it was then safe enough to let me walk by myself.  Plus, I was a but older.

    Parent
    Impressive! (none / 0) (#102)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:26:20 PM EST
    Now did you father ever faux abandon you to test how you would react?  My dad did that to my little brother than me...I was maybe in 3rd or 4thor 5th grade, he took us to Woolworths in Flushing, said he was going to park the car and he'd be right back.  Little did we know he was off in the distance watching as we ran around Woolworths toy dept for an hour or so....finally it dawned me dad was gone for a long time and I took my brother to the customer service desk to say we lost our dad, and that's when dad swooped in.  We passed the test;)

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#109)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:49:41 PM EST
    No, my dad never did that.

    Parent
    Well, I guess that's better than (none / 0) (#115)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:23:45 PM EST
    faking your 6-year old child's kidnapping because you thought he or she was too friendly with strangers...that actually happened last week.

    A 6-year-old boy's mother, grandmother, and aunt have all been arrested after they orchestrated an elaborate kidnapping scheme, one that lasted for four hours and involved a very real handgun, to teach the boy a lesson about why it's dangerous to talk to strangers.

    Lincoln County police say the fake abduction was put into action on Monday after the Missouri family became gravely concerned that the boy was just "too nice" for his own good. The family also convinced a 23-year-old male friend of the aunt's, Nathan Firoved, to get in on the action as their lead kidnapper. From NBC:

        On Monday, Firoved allegedly kidnapped the child after he got off a school bus and said he would never "see his mommy again," authorities said. Firoved also showed a handgun to the now-sobbing boy, then drove around in his truck, and finally tied him up and covered his face with a jacket when the child wouldn't stop crying.

    Firoved proceeded to blindfold the boy and place his feet into plastic bags, before driving back to the boy's home. There, the aunt allegedly pulled down the boy's pants and threatened to put him into "sex slavery." Moments later, surprise! The boy became privy to the fact the whole terrifying ordeal was just a crafty hoax and that his own family was in fact far more dangerous than a true kidnapper.

    I'm not a big fan of scaring children this way, nor am I much in favor of the "see how you like it when I do it to you" school of behavior modification.  Most of the time, it doesn't teach kids what you want them to learn, it just teaches them that they can't trust their own parents.

    You haven't said what you dad planned to do had you and your brother not "passed the test."

    Parent

    Good question... (none / 0) (#119)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:32:17 PM EST
    He was watching the whole time, I suppose he would have just swooped in and asked "didn't you miss me?" eventually or something.  I think it was good parenting, but granted I am biased.

    That kidnapping story is straight up child abuse...a totally different animal.

    Parent

    Holy cr@p! (none / 0) (#133)
    by sj on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 04:20:49 PM EST
    Let's traumatize that good nature right out of him. That is really, really sad.

    Now that child will never trust anyone. And frankly, it's clear that his family really isn't to be trusted. He has no safe place.

    Parent

    My mom had to walk to work on (none / 0) (#105)
    by MO Blue on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:31:54 PM EST
    the same route I took to school. I remember that in kindergarten or first grade I told her that she shouldn't walk to school with me because all of my peers were calling me a baby because I wasn't walking to school by myself.

    Times have definitely changed.

    Parent

    Too true! (none / 0) (#106)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:38:54 PM EST
    on the rare occasion moms drove us to school, it was open season for ridicule.

    Baby Baby stick your head in gravy

    Parent

    In elementary school (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by CST on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:55:30 PM EST
    I was bussed - because bussing was very much a thing in Boston in the late 80's/early 90's.  And my school was not close to home.

    In HS, on the days we got a ride to school it was "sweeeet we get to sleep in an extra hour".  But taking the train home was where it was at, because then the city is your playground.  Even if the offer was there for a ride, I never would've taken it.

    Funny story though, my parents were pretty big on us letting them know where we were going.  One Saturday when I was about 12 I went to the store down the street with my friend (one of many stores).  My dad shows up as we are leaving, and he's furious with me, because I didn't tell him where I was going.  Until I pointed out that I did tell him, and why else would he know exactly where to find me.

    Of course teenager me used this lapse in memory to my advantage, constantly saying things like "don't you remember when I told you X", or "I totally woke you up when I came home at midnight, you must not remember, I swear I wasn't out till 3am".  My favorite moment was when my dad said something to my mom about how he remembered me waking them up.  I definitely didn't wake them up, and he definitely wasn't covering for me - he actually remembered it wrong.

    Aaaand on that note, I'm never having kids.

    Parent

    No worries... (none / 0) (#114)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:23:06 PM EST
    if one of us did have kids, they'd probably get taken away! ;)

    Parent
    Btw, it is not 4 blocks (none / 0) (#113)
    by MO Blue on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:56:09 PM EST
    She lives 3 or 4 houses down from the school. A parent could stand on the step and watch her all the way to school but even that is really not necessary in that neighborhood.

    Parent
    That's just nuts (none / 0) (#93)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:47:33 PM EST
    I used to walk about 3/4 mile or a little more to elementary school.  First in the city of St. Louis (no school busses; everyone walked or took city busses) then in a county suburban area, where we walked to school along a highway.  With no sidewalks, just shoulders.  They had busses, but only for kids living more than a mile away.

    Parent
    She goes to a public elementary (none / 0) (#103)
    by MO Blue on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:27:15 PM EST
    school in Clayton. I'm not sure at what age they can start walking to school by themselves but my friend's granddaughter is 8 or nine and she still must be dropped off and picked up.

    Parent
    Clayton! (none / 0) (#107)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:46:40 PM EST
    Unless Clayton has changed a whole heck of a lot recently, it's not exactly in the middle of the Inner City, where there might be some concerns.  It used to be, and I assume still is, a very affluent, low crime town.

    Parent
    Still a very affluent (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by MO Blue on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:53:00 PM EST
    low crime town. Princes and princesses need to be kept safe from the possibility of dragons. LOL

    Parent
    Except (none / 0) (#88)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:23:57 PM EST
    This was not a case where the kid was there for a couple of hours. As a manager at McDonald's, Harrell's shifts would have been anywhere from 8-10 hours a day, every day.

    I'm very sympathetic to this woman because she can't afford a babysitter, but if she left a 9 year old alone in her own house for that many hours and on multiple days, she would have had the authorities on her just the same.

    Parent

    And that would be just as wrong... (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:31:59 PM EST
    if the kid is well fed, clothed, and unabused I fail to see what the problem is...a mother knows better than the state what her child can handle and is capable of.

    If she's a bad mom, mine was worse because in the summer we were outside unsupervised from the early morn until the streetlights came on.  

    Parent

    So were we (none / 0) (#96)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    But times are different.  And while we were outside all day, a parent or parents knew where we were and we had to come in every once in while and check in.

    Parent
    Practices differ now... (5.00 / 4) (#99)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:12:52 PM EST
    but nothing has chaged...if anything it's safer out on the streets than it was when we were kids, as the accused parents in nycstray's link suggest...it's the media that is perhaps more dangerous and irresponsible, or people are more easily frightened.

    Sadly, the people most apt to harm children are family and people "trusted" by the parents.  Clergy, teachers, coaches, daycare centers, etc.  It's safer on the streets!

    Parent

    times are different (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by CST on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:19:20 PM EST
    The violent crime rate is down, and everyone has cell phones now.

    Parent
    Not really by much (none / 0) (#127)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:56:51 PM EST
    Or at all, depending on what years you are comparing.

    Link.

    And of course, things like sex trafficking of children aren't considered "violent felonies", so they aren't included in your "violent crime is decreasing" stat.

    Link

    Parent

    I was a kid in the late 80's/90's (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by CST on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 03:07:30 PM EST
    Trust me, it's down.

    Pretty much all crime is down.

    Also, as far back as that chart goes, the murder rate is down.  Aggravated assault and other violent crimes may be up compared to the 60s, but at least you're not gonna die.  In fact, just about all crime is down or the same as far back as the mid-70's.

    Regardless of what exact crime went down or up, I don't think it's fair to say that this is a more dangerous time.

    Parent

    Your comment (none / 0) (#157)
    by jbindc on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 07:39:24 AM EST
    Still has nothing to do with the dangers for children, especially those I addressed.

    And hey- as you say, you may be assaulted, but at least you won't be killed!  Happy day!

    Parent

    In Alabama, if your teenager ditches (none / 0) (#161)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 08:38:57 AM EST
    School, parents are held accountable and after a certain number of days have been missed they must appear before the judge.  You are responsible for your child until they are 19 in the state of Alabama, but you have no authority over them after they are 18.  One of our friends is having a go of it with their senior.  They have been told by social services they have no say over her because she is 18, but she is ditching school now and her father recently had to appear before the judge.  He was so frustrated about it all he was in tears.

    Parent
    That's just craziness (none / 0) (#162)
    by Zorba on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 08:46:55 AM EST
    If he has no authority over her now that she's 18, why is he legally responsible for her ditching school?  The girl herself should be the one going before a judge, if anybody is.
    The law needs to be changed.

    Parent
    Couldn't agree more (none / 0) (#163)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 08:50:36 AM EST


    Parent
    Very bizarre too to have to be (none / 0) (#164)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 08:53:53 AM EST
    Financially responsible for a person you have no authority over.  We were really surprised to discover that catch-22.  Thankfully our first 18 yr old didn't do anything crazy that we became financially responsible for.  

    Parent
    What??? (none / 0) (#166)
    by Zorba on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 11:49:05 AM EST
    What if the 18 year old no longer lives at home, but is on their own?  Are the parents still responsible for their high school absences and financially responsible if they do something destructive?
    I would think not, but who knows?  

    Parent
    Yes, parents are financially responsible (none / 0) (#167)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 11:53:10 AM EST
    For their children until they are 19 in Alabama.  I hope people can legally challenge that.  Fortunately we didn't have to attempt to figure that out ourselves.

    Parent
    And here I thought that (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Zorba on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 01:46:08 PM EST
    Conservatives (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that Alabama is still very, very Conservative) were against the Nanny State and too much government regulation.
    Well  this certainly sounds to me like too much government regulation, and the Nanny State expecting parents to monitor and coddle their kids past legal adulthood!   :-)

    Parent
    The two things that bug me (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:10:41 AM EST
    The convoys of SUVs taking kids to and from school.  It seems if you let your kid walk or bike you're perceived a bad parent these days.

    The other thing has to do with sports...
    I like organized sports.  I believe they teach kids how to win and lose as a team. Learning how to deal with bad coaches and prima donna teammates prepares kids for the workplace.  However, not every athletic activity should be ultra organized. Spontaneous pick up games at the playgound are great.  Expensive and time consuming year round travel teams put a burden on families and may not even be the best way to improve a child's athleticism. Basically, we should let kids play more.  

    Parent

    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:19:18 AM EST
    ...I either read or saw a new blurp about some schools cancelling recess.  That will not turn out good IMO.

    Found this:
    The Common Core Is Taking Away Kids' Recess

    Parent

    IMO (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 07:29:41 AM EST
    partially it's helicopter parenting but from my experience it's also fear of something happening to their child like them being kidnapped. I told one friend this really is the product of the 24 hour news more than anything because I'm sure this was going on when I was a child too but it just did not make the national news.

    Parent
    I think you're right (none / 0) (#123)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:43:30 PM EST
    My MIL used to say that pretty much everything that happens nowadays always used to happen, we just didn't know about it.
    And some things (like child sexual abuse) weren't even spoken about.

    Parent
    Winter's Peace... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:12:55 AM EST
    NYC has gone 11 days without a murder...are these the bad old days Rudy warned us about if DeBlasio was elected? ;)

    Some say it's the cold...I think it might be that the cops are still on quasi-strike, causing an unexpected outbreak of peace.  It's not that cold.

    violent crime rate (none / 0) (#62)
    by CST on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:22:33 AM EST
    Is waaay down across the board right now in Boston.  That being said, here it's probably somewhat snow related.  But the entire city is on suicide watch - although I think we're rounding the corner from depressed to just accepting the fact that it's never ever going to stop snowing.  2 hour commutes, a broken MBTA, no parking anywhere, icy one-lane/two-way streets, and constant shoveling are just a way of life now.

    Parent
    With more on the way... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:27:57 AM EST
    you guys are getting absolutely slaughtered, luckily we just had the one big dump here and not much else.  

    Just cold, 13 degrees driving to work today.  Thank goodness oil is cheap right now.

    Parent

    yea the cold (none / 0) (#68)
    by CST on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:47:37 AM EST
    is killing us here too because nothing is melting.  We're only getting 1-2 feet at a time, but it's constant, and there's nowhere left to put it all.

    For all the criticism I had about having the Pats parade when they did, and it was valid criticism, in retrospect it was probably the right call because since then it's only gotten worse.

    Parent

    For Your Information (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:43:03 AM EST
    The most profound sniper in all of US history, Chris Kyle, who was also a US navy seal, was armed when he was murdered.  The other victim, Chad Littlefield, was also armed, both were found dead with their weapons still holstered.  LINK

    Yet every cook in the country with a gun thinks if they are allowed to carry them they will make the world a safer place.  Pleaze.

    What do you have against cooks? (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:54:58 AM EST
    :-) (just 'cos I know how much you love those!)

    Parent
    I imagine (none / 0) (#160)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 08:29:09 AM EST
    he meant "kooks".

    But there are so crazy cooks out there too...
    I''m one of them.
    I carry a spatula.
    But hey - that's just me.

    Parent

    Just a spatula? (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by Zorba on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 11:54:14 AM EST
    You can borrow one of my Japanese Hatori knives to walk around with.
    Or my Global cleaver.  Then you really would look crazy.   ;-)

    Parent
    We use machetes down here... (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by fishcamp on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 12:36:34 PM EST


    Parent
    But we were talking about crazy cooks (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Zorba on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 01:38:05 PM EST
    And machetes aren't generally considered "cooking implements," fish.
    Well, maybe down there, they are.  ;-)
    BTW, with my Global meat cleaver, I have no problem whatsoever chopping through raw bones.  Of course, I'm talking beef, venison, and pork bones, here..........

    Parent
    Yes, I knew he meant 'kooks'. (none / 0) (#180)
    by vml68 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 05:52:49 PM EST
    I was just being silly.

    Parent
    We know you knew, (none / 0) (#182)
    by Zorba on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 06:48:57 PM EST
    And we were just having fun with it.  :-D

    Parent
    Not just armed (none / 0) (#86)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:18:44 PM EST
    But experts with weapons and conditioned to work in high stress situations - like when someone points a gun at you.

    Parent
    Is this the first you heard (none / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:27:16 PM EST
    that Kyle and Littlefield were armed? I thought it was pretty common knowledge.

    Parent
    An absolutely beautiful video to (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 04:43:24 PM EST
    start your weekend.
    Enjoy!

    Costa Concordia (none / 0) (#1)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 10:47:34 AM EST
    Francesco Schettino was sentenced to 16 years in prison for his actions during the accident and for causing the deaths of 32 people in the wreck off the Italian coast. The punishment, handed down Wednesday by a three-judge panel in Tuscany, was 10 years short of what prosecutors had sought.

    He was given 10 years for manslaughter over the deaths, five years for causing the shipwreck when he steered too close to Giglio Island, one year for abandoning the vessel when hundreds were still aboard, and one month for downplaying the collision to maritime authorities, delaying the arrival of help.

    LINK

    I never got the feeling he was sorry about anything other than being labeled a coward and losing his prestigious job.

    Perhaps he should consider himself (none / 0) (#4)
    by Zorba on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 12:09:54 PM EST
    lucky that he wasn't a captain in South Korea.

    The captain of the South Korean ferry that sank earlier this year, killing more than 300 people, has been jailed for 36 years.

    The court said that Captain Lee Joon-seok was professionally negligent and abandoned his passengers during the disaster in April, as it sentenced him on homicide and other charges.

    The chief engineer got 30 years and 13 other crew members of the MV Sewol were sentenced to up to 20 years in prison, Yonhap news agency and other South Korean media reported, citing Gwangju District Court in southern South Korea.

    Link.

    Parent

    Those S. korean courts don's mess around: (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 12:37:51 PM EST
    Korea Air exec. sentenced to one year stemming from macadamia nut incident

    Parent
    Yes. On the other hand, (none / 0) (#9)
    by Zorba on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 12:54:44 PM EST
    I wonder what sentence the South Korean captain, or the Italian captain, would have gotten in the People's Republic of China.
    Might have been much worse.

    Parent
    Or Bali, gawd forbid. (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 01:33:37 PM EST


    Parent
    Neither does that country's parliament. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 02:06:03 PM EST
    LINK.

    Parent
    Per Death... (none / 0) (#8)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 12:52:07 PM EST
    ...Schettino got a much harsher sentence by a factor of around 4.

    I am just surprised in this day where people of means of social status seems to get all benefits of the law including clemency.

    Parent

    Scott, why should you (none / 0) (#10)
    by Zorba on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 01:26:42 PM EST
    be surprised at this at all?  Even in this day and age.
    Not that I approve of this in any way, but that is the way it is.
    Money and social status still mean a whole lot.
    Unfortunately.

    Parent
    No, No... (none / 0) (#12)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 02:00:14 PM EST
    ... I completely agree with you, what I was saying is that I am surprised that Schettino got 16 years.  From what I understand he was fairly high up on the food chain.

    Parent
    Apparently, (none / 0) (#14)
    by Zorba on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 02:59:32 PM EST
    Not high enough.  

    Parent
    At least some measure of justice was obtained. (none / 0) (#5)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 12:23:07 PM EST
    Capt. Schettino's entire body of work that late afternoon and evening, from skirting too close to that island's coastline, to his abandoning of his capsizing ship and leaving both passengers and crew to fend for themselves, was totally inexcusable. He's rightly branded a coward for good reason.

    Given the traditional law of the sea which dictates that the ship's master is to be the last person to leave a foundering vessel after first seeing to everyone else's well being, Schettino probably should've received a life sentence. He caught a break here, which is more than you can say for any of the 32 now-departed souls who were his official charge while they were aboard his ship.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Hey, Jeralyn.... (none / 0) (#6)
    by unitron on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 12:29:19 PM EST
    ...a quick search of TL for Joaquin Guzman didn't show that you've already covered this, so thought you might be interested in the DEA wanting $1,400,000 to fulfill a FOIA request for documents related to the "localization and capture" of him.

    I guess one could still call him a crook, but not a cheap one.

    The DEA records must be incredibly badly (none / 0) (#30)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 05:52:05 AM EST
    organized, to explain that astronomical cost.

    You'd think they'd be ashamed to admit it.

    Parent

    I wonder (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 03:08:10 PM EST
    how long Alabama would need to be in the news for the talking heads to learn how to pronounce Mobile.

    Hey, Hey... (none / 0) (#16)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 04:23:41 PM EST
    ...now I have been in Texas for 17 years and they still correct the way I say names.

    • Kuykendahl - Kirk-en-doll
    • Synott - Senate
    • Pecan - I got this thanks to Martha Stewart, you pee in a can you pick pah-cons.
    • Brazos - Brahzis
    • Tuam - No one has every been able to tell me how this is pronounced with certainty, but I get Twahm, Two-am, and Chewm, yes with a 'C'.  Two-am is the most common and what I use.

    Some of the name I can't even figure out the syllables, Tuam has two and Brazos is one, go figure.

    If Moe-beel doesn't like people calling it moe-bile, they should probably have spelled it differently.  

    Back home the Indian names like Eau Claire, and Milwaukee, which no one ever pronounces correctly.  It's actually 4 syllables, mill-e-wah-key.

    Parent

    The port at San Pedro (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 10:29:00 PM EST
    in LA County.

    -is pronounced San Pee-dro
    not the traditional San Pay dro.

     

    Parent

    Yeah, well, we've also long been calling L.A. ... (none / 0) (#138)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 04:55:46 PM EST
    ... "Loss Ann Gel-Less / -Ease," having long ago dispensed with the city's formal (and tongue-twisting) Spanish name of "La Puebla de Nuestra Dama, La Reina de Los Angeles" -- so really, "San Pee-dro" has never surprised me at all. In fact, many of my own SoCal relations who resided down there would just refer to it as "Pee-dro."

    Regardless, both names are more interesting than "Fresno."

    Parent

    Now, now, Donald (none / 0) (#139)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 05:29:24 PM EST
    "Fresno" means "ash tree" in Spanish.
    Ash trees are quite lovely.  
    And, don't forget, Major League Baseball bats are made of ash wood.
    Don't dis the ash tree.    ;-)

    Parent
    My mother and father actually spent ... (none / 0) (#152)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 12:13:23 AM EST
    ... their honeymoon in Fresno back in 1952. They were on their way to Yosemite Lodge in the High Sierra, but their car broke down, and they had to wait four days for a part to arrive from L.A.

    Parent
    When I lived in Champaign (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 04:35:57 PM EST
    there is apparently a town near by named Casey.  Which happenes to be my last name.  But they pronounced it Cazee.
    So people were constantly pronouncing my name the same it drive me nuts but I eventually just gave up correcting people.

    I always wanted to ask if the ever heard of Casey at the bat Casey Jones etc.

    I feel bad for weather people.

    Parent

    don't come to Boston (none / 0) (#18)
    by CST on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 04:40:08 PM EST
    Worcester = wuster

    Peabody = peebdee

    Then there is my personal favorite

    Lake chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

    Pronounced as - who the eff knows, I don't think anyone has ever actually said it out loud.

    Parent

    My favorite (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by lentinel on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 04:46:51 PM EST
    Massachusetts town name is Athol.

    I heard them say it on the radio once.

    Yes.

    It sounds as written.

    And Worcester is its descending colon.

    Parent

    All This Time... (none / 0) (#20)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 04:56:19 PM EST
    ...I thought your last name was Howdy and that you were a commercial pilot.  I am joking.

    Good afternoon this is Captain Howdy and the weather in St Louis is sunny...


    Parent
    The best (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 07:25:20 AM EST
    one I have ever come across is from when I was living in Macon, GA. There is an avenue called Pio Nono and it is pronounced Pie Nona. Somebody finally spelled it out for me and I made the connection but before that I had no idea what the heck they were talking about.

    Parent
    During my senior year at UW in Seattle, ... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 07:16:30 PM EST
    ... I lived in a suburban town along the Puget Sound shore just south of Sea-Tac Airport which is spelled Des Moines, just like the capital city of Iowa, but is pronounced "Dess Moynz" by the locals. I won't even get into the perpetual mispronunciation of Hawaiian place names by visitors out here.

    Parent
    When I lived in San Antonio (none / 0) (#47)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:22:46 AM EST
    I had to learn that the county I lived in, Bexar, was pronounced "Bear".

    Parent
    I actually knew this one. (none / 0) (#77)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:20:37 AM EST
    Not because I've ever lived in Texas, but because of reading James Michener's "Texas" years ago.   ;-)

    Parent
    I Had No Idea... (none / 0) (#78)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:31:20 AM EST
    ...which is really sad considering we have a location in SA and I have remitted taxes to Bexar county every month for about a decade.

    Parent
    Cairo, Illinois (none / 0) (#75)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:18:03 AM EST
    Is not pronounced like the Egyptian city.
    It's pronounced "care-oh."

    Parent
    Cairo (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:34:15 PM EST
    GA is Kay Roe.

    Parent
    Yep. (none / 0) (#97)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:03:06 PM EST
    And neither American city is pronounced like the Egyptian one.
    There's a county in Missouri, St. Francois County, that is pronounced "St. Francis."  Not the French way.

    Parent
    Just North of Tallahassee, FL (none / 0) (#125)
    by ragebot on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:47:39 PM EST
    Is the city of Havana, FL.  Pronounced  hay vana, like you were hailing Vana White.

    Parent
    The town of... (none / 0) (#145)
    by desertswine on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:57:48 PM EST
    Madrid, New Mexico is pronounced MAD-drid.

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#146)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:59:56 PM EST
    There's a town in Missouri, New Madrid, pronounced the same way.

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 12, 2015 at 06:00:06 PM EST
    just about everyone in my family has the awful "we forgot to include it in the flu shot" flu.  Some got shots some did not.  I got one.  So far I have avoided it but I have a Tamiflu prescription waiting for me just in case.

    Cross yer fingers for me.

    Both my parents gotbit (none / 0) (#27)
    by Slado on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 03:55:59 AM EST
    It wasn't pre bugbit was 24-36 hours of rest and then they were back on the mend.   You can handle  it.

    Parent
    One more time (none / 0) (#28)
    by Slado on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 03:59:01 AM EST
    It was 24-36 hours of rest and they were back on the mend.  You can handle it.

    Also my Dad prepped my mom with Tamiflu and hers was a bit easier.

    Parent

    Seriously Slado... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:03:19 AM EST
    when did the flu become something to fear? Unless you've got other health problems or are very old, it's really not a big deal...a day or three and you're right as rain.

    Some of my co-workers fear it like you would a serious illness or disease.

    Parent

    kdog, as much as I love you, (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by fishcamp on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:32:16 AM EST
    my Apple dictionary says there were 36,000 deaths and 200,000  hospitalizations last year due to the flu.  I get a flu shot every year, even though I know it has those weird ingredients, and they missed one of the bad boy viruses.  I do think the FDA and news media hype things to scare us, like with the measly measles outbreak.  I believe the FDA is notoriously slow to grant drug companies the rights to use their cures and the news media is way too fast with their overloaded hype on just about everything.

    Parent
    And wiki says... (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:51:46 AM EST
    those deaths are almost all the very young, the very old, or those with other health problems.  For those people I agree it makes sense...for everybody else, I say it's a case of The Pusherman strikes again.

    To each their own of course, these are personal health decisions after all.  

    Parent

    There are a couple elements you're (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:29:46 AM EST
    skipping over.  

    One of them is that not everyone gets paid sick leave.  Not everyone can afford to stay home for a couple of days when they're sick, so they come to work and expose their co-workers and the community to their illnesses, and that puts other people at risk: the mom who has a young child at home, the co-worker whose elderly mother lives with her, the teenager who volunteers at the nursing home.

    The other thing is that, assuming the flu vaccine is on-target in terms of the variant that's occurring, there is a herd immunity factor at work the more people who are immunized.

    I should tell you that until my daughters had babies of their own, I never got the flu shot.  But because I have regular contact with my grandchildren - who are both still very young - I couldn't stand the idea that I could end up exposing them to the flu and the consequences of their contracting it.  

    Sometimes, we don't do things as much for ourselves, as we do them for those we love.  It may end up being a benefit to perfect strangers, as well, but I have to say that, moving about the community, I appreciate that the cashier at the grocery store, the folks who work at the library, the people I come into contact with on a regular basis, are providing another layer of protection for me by being immunized.

    Doesn't seem like much of a burden for me to return the favor.

    Parent

    The drug companies don't make a lot (none / 0) (#66)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:36:56 AM EST
    of money from vaccine sales, so the idea that more shots helps said companies rake in the cash is completely and utterly false.

    What do they do to increase their profits?  Market new syndromes and diagnoses that their drugs can be used for.

    You can find some of their latest efforts here, from Alternet.

    Parent

    Not their biggest profit generator... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:00:06 AM EST
    but they're not communists...they're makin' money off the flu vaccine push Mordi.  As are pharmacies and doctors.

    I was also surprised at how much more they spend on marketing than R&D (h/t John Oliver)...whenever the high cost of drugs has been questioned in the past, we've always been told it's R&D, it's R&D, it's R&D.  Looks like that's at least partially bullsh&t.

    Parent

    The numbers say otherwise (none / 0) (#91)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:34:57 PM EST

    Flu Vaccine Sales

    Worldwide sales of flu vaccines in 2013 was around $3.1 billion, according to estimates of a healthcare market research firm. Yes, that may appear to be large, may drive strategic interests of the main companies that manufacture influenza vaccines: Sanofi Pasteur, Glaxo SmithKline and Novartis. But let's put this in context of the worldwide sales of all pharmaceutical products in 2013-nearly US$1 trillion. In other words, various flu vaccines make up less than 0.3% of worldwide sales of Big Pharma, so from a strategic point of view, it's not that interesting. Just for context, cholesterol lowering drugs, like statins, sold more than $33 billion two years ago. If I were a Big Pharma executive, I'd be telling my R&D and Marketing divisions to invest in new statins, because the potential return on investment could be 10X higher.

    Leaving the meta level review of flu vaccine sales, let's examine those sales in context of the individual Big 3 companies in this particular vaccine sector:

    Sanofi Pasteur (division of Sanofi). Total sales $41.6 billion. Flu vaccine sales $1.3 billion. In other words, flu vaccine makes up around 3% of their sales
    Glaxo SmithKline. Total sales $32.3 billion. Flu vaccine sales $420 million, or 1.3% of their total sales.
    Novartis. Total sales $57.9 billion. Flu vaccine sales $215 million, or 0.4% of their sales.
    Note: the remaining $1.1 billion in flu vaccine sales is spread over 15 other manufacturers, none of whom have a major market share.

    Link

    Parent

    Rephrase... (none / 0) (#98)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:04:18 PM EST
    nowhere near their biggest profit generator, but 1.3 billion (with a b) in sales for Sanofi is (pardon the pun) nuthin' to sneeze at.

    Parent
    My sister is very sick (none / 0) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 03:52:28 PM EST
    they actually took her to the emergency room a couple of days ago because her fever was so high.  My 21 yo nephew has been in bed for a week.  I am not afraid I am going to die from it but that sure as hell doesn't mean I'm not going to do everything I possibly can to not get it.
    Just started Tamiflu today.  I didn't know you could take it if you have been exposed even if you don't have symptoms to help prevent it.

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#131)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 03:56:39 PM EST
    you said very young and very old.  I have not looked but I would bet the old part means people over 65.

    That would be a good many of us who are there or close.

    Parent

    Cap'n, when it comes to influenza, ... (none / 0) (#135)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 04:33:55 PM EST
    ... we ought to both realize and remember that during the great Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918-19, which ultimately afflicted one in four Americans, the highest mortality rates actually occurred amongst those persons heretofore generally regarded as the healthiest -- that is, young adults between 18 and 35 years old.

    In fact, the pandemic hit that particular demographic so hard that by the time it was finally spent in 1920, the resultant average life span in some regions of the United States had been reduced temporarily by nearly a full decade!

    Therefore, we probably should not make assumptions regarding a person's age as a reliable measure of risk.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yeah... (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:52:50 AM EST
    ...but it's like getting kicked in the balls every couple of hours, it may not kill you, but WTF, why not avoid it if you can ?

    Like any of the viruses people are getting immunized for, it keeps the them at bay so people who are vulnerable, often family members, have a slimmer chance of contracting it.

    And FYI, I am pretty sure vaccinations and antibiotics are responsible for more lives than strong immune systems.

    HERE is a link to the people who have saved the most lives in history.  Most are related to inventing something that ensured people did not get sick.  Edward Jenner is credited with 530,000,000 lives due to the smallpox vaccination and Linn Enslow & Abel Wolman credited with 177,000,000 lives because of chlorinated water.

    Parent

    It's all about cost/benefit analysis.. (none / 0) (#74)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:13:45 AM EST
    isn't it?  No doubt, antibiotics and vaccines have been a boon for humankind, but there is a cost.

    The overuse of antibiotics has led to antibiotic resistant infections.  The flu vaccine this year seems to have missed the mark, that's alotta wasted effort, time, resources, money.  Not to mention overpopulation.

    I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means...I just don't think the flu shot is all it's cracked up to be, and we need to watch big pharma and big medicine like hawks and always ask questions.  My sister is an RN and even she refuses the flu shot, much to her hospital's chagrin.  

    I think reasonable people can disagree on whether the flu shot is right for them.

    Parent

    Anyone without the flu shot (none / 0) (#171)
    by fishcamp on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 12:52:47 PM EST
    on the TL Cuba boat ride will be subjected to keel hauling.  The measly measles problem, meh, no problemo.  And Zorba you won't have to make gallons of Tzatziki, since we will be eating ceviche from all the fish we catch.  :)

    Parent
    The very, very young (none / 0) (#94)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 12:52:23 PM EST
    Cannot be vaccinated.  Those who are immuno-compromised, who have cancer and are on chemotherapy, who have organ transplants, cannot be vaccinated.
    They depend upon the rest of us to provide herd immunity, because they are very vulnerable.

    Parent
    Until that one time, ... (none / 0) (#129)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 03:17:50 PM EST
    ... when the FDA folks finally become weary of the constant public grumbling, and decide to err on the side of immediate expediency rather than prospective caution, whereupon we get hit badly in the boradside. I would much rather that we over-prepare for a flu outbreak and nothing occur, than the opposite.

    I do wholeheartedly agree with you about the media, though. The incessant belaboring of trendy topics du jour, to the point of banality or panic, is one of the recurring pitfalls of the 24/7 news cycle. When it becomes obvious that the talking heads are staring upward from the bottom of a silo while grasping for different ways to spell "ad nauseum," I just have to turn it off and find something else to do. I imagine that you probably do the same.

    From my own observation of family members and acquaintances, I believe that the wild eyed babble-thon on cable TV and AM radio has had a substantively corrosive effect on the collective psyche of two particular audiences, namely the intellectually incurious and America's homebound population of older adults and social shut-ins.

    And when it comes to issues relating to public health and safety, such manifestation of paranoia and ignorance can be a real problem for everyone. The influenza virus won't first inquire whether we voted for Obama or Romney, or marched in solidarity with Occupy Wall Street, or smuggled arms to the Nicaraguan Contras, or saw Hendrix at Woodstock, or believe that the Apollo 11 moon landing was a hoax, before knocking us on our kiesters.

    But that's enough about bad news. Let's talk about some good news for a change. Former Kansas and Notre Dame football coach Charlie "Six Wins in Topeka" Weis stated the painfully obvious to the South Bend Tribune today, when he told them that it's "highly doubtful" that he'll ever coach again. And if that's not welcome news, I don't know what is.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Charlie Weiss is, I believe, (none / 0) (#144)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 07:13:21 PM EST
    still collecting big bucks from Notre Dame. When the Irish fired him in 2009 Charlie had six years left on his contract. The Irish have been paying him a couple million a year since then.

    I think this year is the last year Notre Dame has to pay Charlie. And I bet he has been laughing all the way to the bank all these years.

    He could not coach his way out of a paper bag, but he is clearly a very skilled negotiator.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:28:10 AM EST
    it's not like getting cancer but the last time I had it I was 28 and it knocked me out for at least a week. So that memory keeps me getting the shot.

    Parent
    My grandson got a shot and was (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:29:23 AM EST
    diagnosed yesterday as having the flu. Seems that the planned for virus didn't show up.

    Parent
    Nope, the virus mutated (none / 0) (#61)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:22:13 AM EST

    Scientists are concerned about what they're seeing so far this flu season, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Thursday, a day after the agency advised doctors this year's flu vaccine is not as effective because the current strain of the virus has mutated.

    Dr. Tom Frieden said researchers are worried that with this particular strain of the virus, "we could have a season that is more severe than most with more hospitalizations and more deaths."

    The advisory sent Wednesday said 52% of the 85 influenza virus samples collected and analyzed from October 1 through November 22 were different than the virus strains included in this year's vaccine, indicating a mutation, or drift, of the strain.

    The most common strain of the virus reported so far this season is influenza A (H3N2). In the past, this strain has been linked to higher rates of hospitalization and death, especially for those at high risk for complications, which is usually the very young, the elderly and those with chronic health conditions such as asthma or heart problems.

    In February, a panel of experts decided on 3 strains of the virus to include in this year's vaccine, based on data about the common strains circulating around the globe throughout the year. Some years the vaccine is a better match to the circulating strains than others.

    LINK

    Parent

    Like I said (none / 0) (#183)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 07:06:50 PM EST
    It didn't show up. It mutated.

    Parent
    Jim, (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Zorba on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 07:10:54 PM EST
    this "shadow" obsession of yours is getting really, really old.
    Grow up, would you?  You're certainly old enough to do so.

    Parent
    I don't agree with much Jim has to say (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by vml68 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 11:03:21 AM EST
    but he has a point about Mordiggian.
    Mordiggian reminds me of a poster here a few years ago that Jeralyn banned. Same style of writing and same obsession with Jim.

    Pretty much everyone here has at one time or another pointed out the flaws in Jim's comments/arguments. But, no one else feels the need to respond to or rate every comment of Jim's. It is kinda creepy/stalkerish, IMO.

    Parent

    There's another way to look at it, vml, (5.00 / 3) (#195)
    by Anne on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 12:19:23 PM EST
    and that's that I think many of us have come to depend on several commenters to deal with jim's nonsense so we don't have to.

    It's true that no one has to respond to jim at all - but I think many of us feel that to leave his fact-free, distorted comments out there unchallenged is to accord them a level of acceptability they just don't deserve.  And, there's a feeling that not responding may, in some way, attract more people who think like jim.

    But responding to jim comes with the knowledge that he never gives up, never lets go, and will keep going and going, filling up the comments with more truth-challenged offerings.  Sometimes, when I see him getting started, it makes me feel tired just thinking about what it will mean if I call him on his BS.  So I, like others, often just wait to see if others will step in, and if so, all the better.

    So, if you keep seeing Mordiggian and Yman and a few others "following" jim around, it isn't because they have an unhealthy interest in him, it's because the rest of us have sometimes failed to take a turn or two countering the ignorance.

    Truth is, I know I can count on Mordy and Yman to put jim in his place - and at the same time, educate and inform not just those of us who comment, but those who are just reading.

    I tend to regard it more as a service and less like an annoyance, but you may not agree.

    Parent

    I don't have an issue with people (3.50 / 2) (#198)
    by vml68 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 01:46:03 PM EST
    challenging Jim's offerings. If they have the energy and patience to do that, more power to them.
    IMO, Mordiggian takes it to another level. It's like Jim's comments are a siren song for him, no matter how innocuous.

    Case in point:

    I haven't the vaguest idea as to what Obama is doing and neither does anyone else who has commented. I hope MT is right.
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 08:17:30 AM EST

    Thank you Polonius.
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 06:19:34 AM EST

    I tend to just scroll on when I see the Jim/Mordy comments. So, I don't even know why I felt the need to jump in and share my opinion on this. I need to have my head examined!

    Parent

    All I can say (2.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Politalkix on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 02:05:17 PM EST
    to your statement "Truth is, I know I can count on Mordy and Yman to put jim in his place - and at the same time, educate and inform not just those of us who comment, but those who are just reading."

     is Jim and Yman deserve each other. From their posts it seems that one interned with Karl Rove and the other with Mark Penn. Ugh!

    Parent

    Sorry, Politalkix (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by Yman on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 02:31:23 PM EST
    I never interned with Mark Penn, but unlike you, I bring facts and evidence to the discussion.  I understand how that frustrated people like you who rely on specious claims and their unsupported opinions, but you should try it sometime.

    Your internship at the Church of Obama almost over?

    Heh.

    Parent

    Lots of comments I don't respond (none / 0) (#194)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 11:49:07 AM EST
    to and/or rate that Jim makes here and there' and he's called others his "shadow" besides me if they respond to him, but hey, maybe they're creepy and stalkerish as well.  😎

    Parent
    What do you call some one (none / 0) (#190)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 08:33:13 AM EST
    who follows you around making comments that have no purpose other than to call attention to themselves??

    Mordiggian has a fixation. I have been ignoring it but every now and then s/he deserves some recognition.

    Parent

    Would you feel better if there (none / 0) (#191)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 08:46:46 AM EST
    was someone to blame for the fact that your precious grandson got the flu despite having his shot?

    Or would you just find something else to whine and moan about anyway?


    Parent

    Sorry you can"t deal (none / 0) (#187)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 06:18:10 AM EST
    with the truth, Jim.  

    Parent
    Paging Oregon Casey! (none / 0) (#57)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:13:00 AM EST
    What the heck is going on??

    Well, jcindc, older man divorces wife, (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:47:13 PM EST
    meets younger woman, and falls in love. He and younger woman (YM) get engaged.

    He then runs for and wins unprecedented third and fourth terms as governor. He announces that, although he and YM are not married, she will live with him in the governor's house in the state capital and will act as the First Lady of the state. They live in a mostly blue and kind of laid back state, so nobody really cares about this.

    YM has a business as a consultant in the field of alternative energy. During the gov's first term there is an investigation into whether the  people in the state's energy dept. steered state contracts to YM's business. The investigation is handled so poorly by the Attorney General's office that the issue becomes the AG's heavy handed tactics and the whole contract issue gets kind of lost.

    In the fourth term several shoes drop. Everyone, including the gov, learns that the YM once married a man so that he could stay in the USA and get a green card. That gig earned $5,000. They never lived together and later divorced.

    Someone else reveals that at one time YM had considered buying an isolated bit of land to grow what was then illegal weed. As far as we know YM never acted on that.

    Another big shoe that dropped was the accusation that YM used her position as an informal advisor to the gov and partner in pillow talk to get state business for friends.

    So, some of this is concern about YM and her actions. Some is just fatigue with this gov, who, remember, is now into his fourth term (Oregon law required him to sit out a term between the second and the fourth).

    And some of this is the glee of the GOP in Oregon, a party that has not won a statewide race in the state in ages. The last GOP governor left office in January of 1989.

    I think Kitzhaber, the gov, is out of there by the end of next week. With the Democratic leaders in both the House and the Senate telling him it is time to go, and with another Dem, the Sec.
    of State, ready to take over the governorship, he can't last long.

    There is some thought that Kitz won the fourth term, despite the stories about YM, because people did not want to elect the Republican who ran against him. With a democrat set to take over, that reason is moot.

    Parent

    Thank you (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by sj on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 04:25:21 PM EST
    That was a great synopsis. And thanks to jb for asking the question.

    Parent
    7th paragraph should read (none / 0) (#110)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 01:51:19 PM EST
    "sit out a term between the second and the third."

    Parent
    "YM" should be "YW," right? (none / 0) (#118)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:32:11 PM EST
    I kept reading "younger man" when I know you meant "younger woman."

    Parent
    Yes. Would you believe (none / 0) (#122)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:37:01 PM EST
    I did proofread that post, just not very well?

    Parent
    Oregon Governor resigns. (none / 0) (#116)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:28:57 PM EST
    John Kitzhaber chose love over political power. He says he loves Cylvia Hayes and intends to marry her.

    Secretary of State Kate Brown, who many expected would run for governor after Kitz left office, will become governor. Oregon does not have the office of Lt. Governor.

    Good luck to Kate Brown. And all the best to Kitz and Cylvia

    Parent

    It's probably for the best. (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 04:04:56 PM EST
    From my own perspective as former senior legislative staff in state government, I'd say that Cylvia Hayes may have been unaware of her own inherent conflict of interest as the governor's live-in fiancée when conducting her business, since she was not on the Oregon payroll and not yet legally joined in matrimony.

    And because apparently neither she nor the governor ever bothered to inquire with the Oregon Government Ethics Commission as to the propriety of her activities, she simply bulldozed over those ethical boundaries at her beloved's ultimate political expense.

    (What I find inexplicable and almost absurd is that an elected official of John Kitzhaber's high caliber would have had such a political blind spot regarding Ms. Hayes' business ventures. If that's really the case here -- and quite honestly, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt -- then his love for Ms. Hayes was not only blind, it rendered him catatonic and provided an oddly dumba$$ed ending to an otherwise sterling career in public service.)

    At least now, the Oregon legislature can return to the business of state, without being eclipsed by Gov. Kitzhaber's personal sideshow. That said, I wish both Mr. Kitzhaber and Ms. Hayes the very best as they move on together in life. He's been a good governor in my overall estimation, but it's obviously time to go.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Kitzhaber's political career (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 07:08:19 PM EST
    in Oregon dates back to 1978, when he was first elected to the Oregon House of Representatives. He was then elected to the Senate where he served as majority leader.

    When the legislature was not in session, Oregon' s legistature meets in the odd numbered years from Jan. - June more or less, Kitzhaber worked as an emergency room physician in Roseburg.

    After serving his first two terms as governor, Kitzhaber worked as a health care consultant. And in 2006 he ran for a third term as governor.

    He is a very smart guy with a very deep knowledge of health care issues.

    He has been an excellent public servant for Oregon. It saddens me, in a way that I am rarely saddened by the fall of politicians, to see his career end this way.


    Parent

    Well, Donald, regarding Kitzhaber's (none / 0) (#137)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 04:45:36 PM EST
    lapses in judgement, "Love is blind," as they say.
    Or, to put it more crudely, perhaps he was thinking with his little head, not his big head.

    Parent
    Kitzhaber's political career (none / 0) (#143)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 07:08:28 PM EST
    in Oregon dates back to 1978, when he was first elected to the Oregon House of Representatives. He was then elected to the Senate where he served as majority leader.

    When the legislature was not in session, Oregon' s legistature meets in the odd numbered years from Jan. - June more or less, Kitzhaber worked as an emergency room physician in Roseburg.

    After serving his first two terms as governor, Kitzhaber worked as a health care consultant. And in 2006 he ran for a third term as governor.

    He is a very smart guy with a very deep knowledge of health care issues.

    He has been an excellent public servant for Oregon. It saddens me, in a way that I am rarely saddened by the fall of politicians, to see his career end this way.


    Parent

    I listened to his resignation statement (none / 0) (#147)
    by ZtoA on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 09:22:17 PM EST
    today on OPB. It was very sad. His voice was very emotional.

    I also wish Kitzhaber and Hayes all the best. There is a lot of negative sentiment towards her now. It is also being openly discussed that they met while he was still married and they began dating officially just after the divorce.

    I think Kate Brown will be an excellent governor. I hope she is so good people stop paying so much attention to Kitzhaber and Hayes so they can re-group and get on with their lives.  

    Parent

    John and Sharon Kitzhaber were (none / 0) (#149)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:52:17 PM EST
    separated for at least the last year of his second term as governor. She and their son, Logan, were by then living in a house in SW Portland.

    They did not officially announce the split until the end of that term, but it was a very open secret.

    Given that, I am not seeing why the timing of Kitzhaber's and Cylvia's meeting is cause for any concern. It is not like John was cheating on Sharon by that point.

    I am not saying you are doing this, ZtoA, but gossip about when they met and starting dating seems unnecessary and a bit like piling on.


    Parent

    I know several people who know both (none / 0) (#150)
    by ZtoA on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 11:46:32 PM EST
    John and Sharon. I met John just before his first announcement to run the first time.

    This resignation has brought many out to say stuff about his relationship with Cylvia. It surprised me since I do not follow gossip (except when it comes to the art power brokers in the NW and west coast). But after several exchanges about this I realized that people are indeed 'piling on' (all liberal democrats).

    Emotions have been running high in Portland - at least in the people I know, admittedly very liberal. People are flailing about looking for someone to blame. Timelines are being dissected and discussed.

    I had, personally, wished he did not resign. But I also think he realized his dilemma and I respect that. The best critique of him, for me, was that he liked to get big ideas in motion and then hand off the details of that to others. Did not work well with Cover Oregon. In hindsight it was a mistake, but one person cannot be every last thing. I am heart sick at this whole situation.

    I also blame The Oregonian and Willamette Week for their right wing hounding of him. Evidently KATU did too, tho I do not watch/listen to them. The take down of Kitzhaber was a very complex network of voices, and will be sifted thru for a very long time, but the Oregonian and WW are not always very positive forces in OR. In their arts reporting they can often be extremely negative. They both have had writers who seem to have p@nis envy about NYC and other large important areas of the US and want to denigrate PDX.

    I have a friend who's son was targeted by the Oregonian when he was in high school. The paper was relentless. This kid's crime was he gave a fellow classmate a phone number where he might get cocaine, after the other kid begged him to. The other kid took some cocaine and died - he had an undiagnosed heart condition and it killed him. Teens of my daughter's generation. The boy was allowed to graduate but was hauled off to jail right after graduation, spent a year in jail and is now doing very well in his new career (fixing cars).

    The point is that when a major news outlet, for a region, is targeting someone, then the power of the airwaves (virtual sites) are something to not be ignored and dismissed - even when they should be ignored and dismissed because it is just stupid gossip. This is what makes me the saddest about Kitzaber. He has the experience and wisdom and vision to lead, but these multiple 'paper cuts' brought him down. Yes, he may have been stupid about his love life, (who knows or cares?), and he may have needed to be more pro-active in his responses, and on and on and on.... but he was a GOOD governor, respected by all sides. So I don't think (and it is early and I'm still reacting) his resignation was all anyone's fault - not his, Cylvia's, WW's, Oregonian's, GOPs. He blamed the Democratic leadership for caving to these outside influences. I think that they had to cave - these are new times, and time is 'a changin'.

    Parent

    The Oregonian has always (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by caseyOR on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 12:11:29 AM EST
    been a right leaning paper. The editorial board seems to take it very personally that the voters keep rejecting GOP candidates statewide.

    As for WW, well, that paper has not been worth reading for more than two decades. Back in the '70s and early '80s it really was an alternative to the Oregonian and a decent paper. Those days are long gone. Now its major reason for being seems to be to snark and snipe and just be generally nasty.

    The thing about being top dog is that you are ultimately responsible for everything in state government. You may not be lambasted for everything, but the old buck does stop at the top. And the Cover Oregon debacle was too big a mess that cost too much money. You just cannot spend that much taxpayer money and fail that totally and not get covered in blame and recrimination.

    Also, health care is Kitzhaber's big issue. He is a national expert. That he did not keep a closer eye on Cover Oregon is shocking. And if the Supreme Court rules against the subsidies in the ACA Oregonians will suffer because there is no state-run exchange.

    Also if, as I have read, the Attorney General has launched a criminal investigation of John and Cylvia I don't a see how John had much choice but to resign.

    Parent

    "Right Wing" (none / 0) (#155)
    by Slado on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 04:13:09 AM EST
    Isn't the job of a Newspaper to investigate and report on political corruption?

    Is this story made up?  Is it your opinion that the governor is being railroaded by a press mob?

    Seems pretty clear to me he's guilty on this one.   It sucks when a politician that is otherwise a good man and is doing a good job falters but blaming the media for doing it's job just seems like sour grapes.

    I see this as not only a love scandal but a scandal that shows how the rush to make everything "green" leads to political corruption and big sweetheart deals for companies with public money that would never succeed on their own.

    Like to see some more reporting on that from the "Left Wing" media.

    Parent

    These are two different papers (none / 0) (#156)
    by ZtoA on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 06:01:27 AM EST
    with somewhat different focuses. The WW is like the rag - cute and with a large 'what to do this weekend' section, and another section which is the 'OMG' section. OMG, Hayes thought she might do something against prohibition (tho it is legal now)!! But that was not all, she seems to be not very honest and forthcoming. She also spent much of her time working for green alternatives and for the benefit of families. That did not get mentioned.

    Kizhaber is guilty of being himself. He is a great idea person. He gets things going. But he was not the computer site herder guy. But no one can be everything. A computer herder might not make a great ideas leader who could inspire a population towards an online benefit application. But certainly Oregon's ACA site was a disaster - and it was most likely the fault of the state govt. They obviously should have had someone in charge who understands code and how things will go online in the times to come. Home grown veggies be damned!

    I only follow these two newspapers as far as their arts coverage. But I never buy them.  I can tell you they do the most disgusting 'reporting' and 'critiquing' in the arts. Neither try to bring any light or understanding to their cultural reporting. Both simply want to be 'taste makers'. In a very experimental city, the very conservative owners seem to spend their media capitol on trying to squeeze PDX into the shoes of Kansas City or NYC. Is that 'good' 'reporting'??

    I have two friends (not close, but friends all the same) that have been targeted by these 'news' papers. Actually in the late 90s I was also targeted for a while. While technically correct (my horrible infraction was that too many 'regular' people paid actual money to buy my work which was not deemed worthy by the PDX tastemakers since it was not like NYC work) there is a slant put on who ever they want to 'take out'. The two newspapers are a bit of a club (in both senses of the word) and can get onto a 'cause'. My two friends who were targeted were 'featured' on the front pages over and over and over and over for months and months and months. I and several other friends/colleagues did not face that, but the intent was the same - take them down. In the end, these papers DID damage my career (simply because they did not understand and were not curious or want to understand). Actually the writer (who I tried to befriend several years later) had wanted to be a sports writer, had never taken art history 101 and did not know jack S about actual art - but he did know how to write 'take down' sensational writing. Goody for him. He tried to take me out. In 2008 he again wrote about me, saying that 'altho I was a nice person (who works hard for the community)' my work did not sell well during a certain show (it sold 50% in December 2008 - did this guy even notice there was a little glitch in the economy??). Slant, slant, slant.

    Obviously this is not the exact same situation. Kitzhaber should have had media advisors that could have advised him better on this. He was guilty of not navigating this media show well. Now, leaders need to be able to navigate every last media attack. I did follow him on twitter. He tweeted (or his twitter persons) about actual interesting state things every day, but it was not set up to defend against attacks that are emo and insinuations. Nothing is proven, or even tried. There is no court - it is 'democracy' (rule of the mob) at it's worse.

    And finally, I may regret this, but I did have the son of the WW owner in a martial arts class I assisted in 20 years ago. That kid was the most obnoxious kid - a real bully - I had ever known. He provoked everyone and the kid was only 9. I usually love little kids. But this kid was all about making all the other kids very injured. I said he was "being bratty" and he told his WW owner dad. I paid the price for my deep mistake of calling him out on that. I paid the price for that. I still do not 100% regret calling out that kid on his horrid behavior. Plus he and his dad could not keep with the discipline it takes to actually practice a real martial art.

    That kid is now in his late 20s - heir to the WW. Political leanings are irrelevant - it goes much deeper into human nature.

    Slado, I feel it does not always serve one's basic human nature to have one's curiosity, thoughts, resistances, etc., get attached to a political R or L. Definitions of right or left are very constricting.

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    Agreed (none / 0) (#174)
    by Slado on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 02:13:35 PM EST
    I try my darnedest to not be so.

    I'm just asking if this guy is guilty or not and it appeared to me by calling the paper right wing you were avoiding the facts because you don't want this guy to be guilty. I may be assuming too much.

    This link makes me think something is going on.

    Since you are on the scene I just wanted your sense of what was going on.

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    the grand tradition, "sweetheart deals" (none / 0) (#196)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 12:24:18 PM EST
    between the public and private sector goes back as far as when JP Morgan sold defective carbines to the Union Army..

    Just because "green" necessarily entails some forms of interference in mythic free markets, doesn' mean it signifies the advent of some new all-out assault on the freedom of libertarians to do whatever the hell they want to whoever the hell they want.

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    Casey, OT here, (none / 0) (#126)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 02:48:13 PM EST
    But are you still in the Midwest?  And how is it going with you?

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    Zorba, yes, I am still in the (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by caseyOR on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 06:51:13 PM EST
    Land O' Lincoln. My plan is to be here as long as my mother is alive. So, I don't know when I will go home.

    I am okay, a bit homesick at times, but okay. Thanks for asking.

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    Just don't forget to (none / 0) (#141)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 06:57:34 PM EST
    take care of yourself, my sister, while you're taking care of others. {{Hugs}}

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    And if I'm not mistaken (none / 0) (#148)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 13, 2015 at 10:24:07 PM EST
    Kate Brown becomes the nation's first openly bi-sexual Governor.

    Bob Dylan was right.

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    Just watched "Scandal'. (none / 0) (#153)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 01:17:12 AM EST
    It features a president sending the nation to war and it's about his paramour.

    It features a beheading - with a knife - done by someone we are meant to be sympathetic to. An American saving a head as a trophy - as bounty.

    It features right wing propaganda to an extent I have yet to see it before - and we are meant to feel sympathetic to what is being expressed.

    It is true that American presidents have used American forces for personal reasons. In the same manner that English Kings did. Elitism to the max.
    Bush did it - and in my opinion - so did his creepy father.

    But the show, as I said, makes this appear as the new normal. Even something to be admired. We are meant to feel for the president - for the king. Yes, boss.

    Lastly, there is a nice plug for "venture capitalists". It is offered as something that we might strive to be - or to be "wined and dined" by.

    In brief: This is one sick show.

    Just to add... (none / 0) (#154)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 02:08:29 AM EST
    the last scene is truly sickening.

    It features a scene with the flag-draped coffins of 43 dead soldiers - and their grieving wives and children who have lost their fathers.

    The president acknowledges that their lives were sacrificed to suit his personal agenda - to the swelling of emotionally evocative music - and says that getting back the lady about whom he is obsessed will show that they,"have not died in vain".

    And we are meant to buy it.

    The creator of this horror show, Shonda Rhimes, is one demented puppy in my humble opinion. Either that, or she has no idea of what her writers are putting out there - but personally I opt for demented.

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    It's just a TV show (none / 0) (#158)
    by jbindc on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 08:07:17 AM EST
    People watch it for the soap opera aspect.  But given the topic and characters, there has to be world drama. To say that a story that involves the President wouldn't face these issues is silly.  (And the character of Olivia Pope is loosely based on Judy Smith - a Deputy Press Secretary under GWB and who representef Monica Lewinsky).

    It's just a TV show.

    About Shonda Rimes 1

    Link

    Why did you make Fitz a Republican?

    There were several reasons why I didn't make him a Democrat. One, we have a Democratic president in office right now and I wanted -- Kerry [Washington] works on Obama's council -- and I wanted absolutely no comparisons to Obama. Like, none. In any way, shape or form. Two, I didn't want him to be a Democrat because of the Monica Lewinsky-Clinton thing, and we were telling the Amanda Tanner story in Season 1, I just didn't want that to be a thing. Three, the Karl Roves and Dick Cheneys, when you read the history of things that happened -- not that anything like what happens on the show ever possibly happened -- but things got interesting for me creatively when I started to make up scenarios. It felt more interesting to me if they were Republican.

    Do you feel like he shouldn't be president anymore?

    Do I, Shonda, a person who is a citizen of this country, feel like he shouldn't be president anymore? Absolutely, he wasn't the president to begin with, as far as I'm concerned. Do I, Shonda, creator of the show, feel like he should not be the president of this country anymore? He should totally be the president of the country. From a voter perspective, absolutely not. As the creator of the show, absolutely he has to be the president of the country for a while longer.



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    Shonda (none / 0) (#159)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 08:25:28 AM EST
    wants to have it both ways. She acknowledges making up these scenarios - and I react - as a viewer - that they are among the most demented I have yet to witness.

    That's entertainment.

    Beheadings. Nice touch.
    Watching a guy take a short knife and begin slicing while holding the noggin by its hair. Thanks Shonda. I needed that.

    You may be right that it is just a tv show, but I recoil at the underlying messages - the acceptance by everyone of the use of the military for a personal agenda - and the portrayal of the president as someone for whom we should have sympathy while he is sending innocent soldiers to their deaths.

    The last scene in the most current episode, which featured gooey music played with the coffins of servicemen in the background - grieving widows and children - and then stating that saving Olivia would make it all worthwhile - it really made me angry.
    A real desecration. Revolting.

    It's just a new low in tv - in my opinion.

    It is, as you say, just a show - and I hope that it goes the way of the Dodo asap.

    I am alarmed at the content.

    I do not like Shonda.
    I think she has a very weird streak.

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


    Parent

    Then stop watching, lentinel. (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by caseyOR on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 12:35:28 PM EST
    If you hate it as much as you seem to, just stop watching. It is a fricken' TV show, not a documentary. I can still change the channels on my TV, so i bet you can do the same.

    I happen to think Shonda is a television genius. She writes, and centers her shows around, compelling female characters. Totally outrageous things happen to the people in her shows, but most of her viewers know going in that this is a TV Show. And, given that her shows feature strong women, love 'em or hate 'em, it is amazing that she is so successful. I think she is the first woman to have a stable of successful shows. She is right up there with the guys, Steven Bochco and Stephen Cannell and David E. Kelly, all of whom were praised to high heaven for their TV acumen.

    You want to be sickened by what is shown on TV, watch some of the horrible crime of the week shows. This would include anything from the Law and Order franchise, regular L&O, SVU, Criminal Intent, and Dick Wolf's new forays into cops and firefighters in Chicago.

    Two show that you could not pay me to watch are Criminal Minds, which features a gory serial killer, one who most often goes after young women. Stalker, a show about stalkers and the cops who go after them, well, I think that about sums up the show.

    I do not know if this means anything, but IIRC, the last time you ranted about a TV show it was The Good Wife, which is also, like Scandal, a show with a strong professional woman in the lead.


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    After two years (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Slado on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 02:18:27 PM EST
    I finally gave in and the wife and I are starting scandal in a binge watching format.

    Got through the first two episodes and other than the repeated Republican bashing it's not so bad.

    It's hard not to love Kari Washington so it will keep me engaged.  Luckily I can suspend disbelief and enjoy just the entertainment.  

    Parent

    Or, if you really, really want to be sickened, (4.50 / 2) (#176)
    by Zorba on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 02:52:32 PM EST
    Watch and listen to and read the news, including online.
    Not just the regular and cable channels, but the BBC and other European and world news sources, and so-called "alternative" media.
    Nothing that can be imagined and shown on a television show is worse than what what has actually happened, and is happening, to real, actual people.
    We have a friend who is always saying "People are a near miss."
    I would amend that to say, too often, they are a "far miss."
    :-(

    Parent
    The good old (none / 0) (#177)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 04:46:44 PM EST
    love it or leave it defense.

    Meaningless then, and meaningless now.

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    This comment (none / 0) (#179)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 05:46:33 PM EST
    I do not know if this means anything, but IIRC, the last time you ranted about a TV show it was The Good Wife, which is also, like Scandal, a show with a strong professional woman in the lead.

    is so stupid and reprehensible I am left speechless.

    And in Scandal, the "strong woman" as you put it, is currently being "auctioned"!

    Has a nice nostalgic ring to it for you?

    Parent

    Nope, not a hint of nostalgia (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by caseyOR on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 06:08:26 PM EST
    for me.

    I do not see what you see in this show. I do not see the glorification of torture. Rather, having watched since the beginning, I see a show that, within the construct of a prime time soap opera, shows the terrible toll of state-sanctioned torture on the people who conduct that torture in our name and how ugly and horrific that torture is.

    I see a show that, with admitted exaggeration because it is a soap opera, every week tells the story of just how completely power corrupts, and how far those in power will go to hang on to it, and those without power will go to grab power.

    I do not see the glorifying or normalizing of torture or corruption or dishonesty.

    And, yes, Olivia Pope is a strong woman. That she has been kidnapped and sold does not make her weak. Her strength has been a part of this story from the beginning.

    And finally, if that last sentence, the one you find so reprehensible, is wrong, if you did not post a long comment heaping criticism on The Good Wife, I apologize.

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    "stupid and reprehensible?" (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 09:21:43 PM EST
    Honestly, your ability to find something wrong with everything, to whine so incessantly over them and to pout when no one joins your chorus of complaints sometimes just makes me want to stick needles in my eyes.

    You make Debbie Downer look like a piker.

    These are fking TV shows: no one's forcing you to watch them, but it's beginning to feel like - and maybe this is where casey's coming from - you watch things you know you hate just so you can complain about them.  Who just does that to themselves?

    I kind of/sort of get where you're trying to come from, but here's the thing: the TV shows, the movies, the books - these things are all in many ways just reacting to what's going on in the world, not causing them to happen. Scandal is a prime-time soap opera, with enough of a feel of current events to make it relevant, but not enough to make anyone confuse it for reality.  Is Grey's Anatomy a depiction of what it's really like in a hospital?  Is Suits what it's really like in a law firm?

    I mean, come on.  Either find a sense of humor, or spend the rest of your life marinating in a sour and bitter soup of endless complaints: your choice, but I've reached the point where I sometimes don't read your comments anymore because they just seem so gratuitously whiny.

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    Easily the best evaluation (none / 0) (#186)
    by CoralGables on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 10:43:39 PM EST
    of well over a year's worth of comments in just a few paragraphs. Thank you Anne for the thorough analysis, and letting me know I wasn't the only one that was tired of the daily diatribe of woe and whine.

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    Et tu? (none / 0) (#188)
    by lentinel on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 07:02:23 AM EST
    My comment was about a show that portrays our government's use of torture as the new normal. This last show, which I wonder if you watched, featured a fairly graphic beheading by our guys.
    It also featured flag-draped coffins of American soldiers, killed for a personal agenda. It is framed as a scene in which we are meant to identify with the person with the agenda - not the victims of that agenda.

    I found that to be sickening.

    The response I replied to, that I called reprehensible, morphed my comment into something in which I allegedly complained about shows because they feature strong professional women.

    Ick.

    About the "if you don't like it don't watch it", mantra:

    I do like to know what is going on.
    Sometimes I watch stuff - soap opera type stuff like this show - to find out what is being served by the commercial media to the American people.

    Shows have always had various propaganda attached to them - be it the image of a family - the father who gives sage advice and the mother who runs the kitchen - and I have felt that these underlying agendas might have some impact on people who are watching a sitcom or a soap - by reinforcing or shaping behavior patterns.

    But the agendas I am seeing now, in my opinion, reinforce the ethics that began to be laid upon us during the Bush-Cheney era. I find that to be alarming.

    This is just my opinion, as I state over and over again.

    You are obviously free to disagree and watch whatever you want.
    If you think that Scandal is a show about a strong professional woman, enjoy.

    And as far as sour soup or whatever is concerned - I am always interested in reading "good news" comments from whomever.
    I watched a number of "Wire" shows based on your positive review.

    I also like "Elementary" - a show which, in my opinion, features very strong and original women characters - especially Lucy Liu. Ophelia Lovibond also performed in some recent episodes and gave moving and original performances.

    Parent

    Here's the thing (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by jbindc on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 08:21:21 AM EST
    The nice thing of having so many TV options - you can change the channel.  I never watched Breaking Bad or Weeds because I think it's horrible that we are now making anti-heroes out of people engaged in the production and sales of illegal drugs - and glorifying things that are literally destroying do many lives and killing brain cells and compromising the health of this nation.

    But that's the beauty - I don't have to watch it.

    Shonda Rhimes is not setting US foreign policy, so what's the problem?

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#192)
    by lentinel on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 09:15:07 AM EST
    I don't have to watch something I don't want to watch.

    I simply wanted to express what I had experienced in watching some episodes of this particular show - as you did above re: Breaking Bad and Weeds.

    As I mentioned, the last scene in this current episode was particularly stomach-turning for me because of its use of American soldiers in flag-draped coffins as a backdrop for its rather slimy narrative.

    To make a contrast - on 'The Good Wife", it shows the NSA at work - but does not portray it as patriotic.

    On "Scandal", it portrays torture as the new normal for obtaining information.

    I do think things like that matter - as you apparently do vis a vis the shows that you feel glorify the world of illegal drugs.

    If you don't agree with my assessment of Scandal, or find my opinion to be "whiny", you are certainly free to ignore it.
    No problem.

    Parent

    to paraphrase someone else (none / 0) (#197)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 12:44:16 PM EST
    television genius is to genius what military music is to music.

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    Ya know, the time to be alarmed about (none / 0) (#165)
    by nycstray on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 11:42:54 AM EST
    this show, was a couple of seasons ago when it first started.

    I think the fact that the show is so outrageous is a good thing. It keeps it firmly in a non-reality realm. Do you have a problem when a show like Criminal Minds has a serial killer that graphically mutilates bodies and saves trophies? Or enjoys a meal of said body parts?

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    See, (none / 0) (#178)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 05:43:12 PM EST
    What I'm trying to get across is that this show glorifies torture among other things - but not in the traditional horror movie way.

    That would be "acceptable" propaganda were it to be dramatizing what the bad guys, the al qaida people - the ISIS ISIL IS people are doing - and showing it as something bad. Very bad.

    But it shows US doing it - with the veneer that it is OK, acceptable and even efficient.

    Beheadings. Torture. USA! USA! USA!

    That is the point of view I find reprehensible.

    It is the Cheney doctrine.

    To he!! with them.

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    Thursday Open Thread | 200 comments (200 topical)