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What Causes Extremism?

I heard part of President Obama's speech on ISIS and extremism while driving today. The part I heard had to do with the causes of extremism. He said poverty, lack of options, and perceptions of mistreatment by those in power are big factors. He was careful to say not all poor youth become extremists, any more than all poor youth become criminals.

I think he was saying that being poor and not seeing any way out, along with feeling mistreated by those in power, makes one vulnerable to extremist ideology. I'd agree with that. [More...]

On my drive home, the pundits were still arguing over whether Obama should use the words "Islamic terrorist" instead of "violent extremist."

I recently wrote about that here. Since ISIS' violence and appeal are based upon its interpretation of Islam, which it maintains calls for retribution and "an eye for an eye", it's hard to say the word should never be used. They do view themselves as followers of Islam, and they are violent extremists. The problem lies in the fact that too many non-Muslims will equate Islam with ISIS' views of it, when those views are repudiated by most of the world's Muslims. The term creates prejudice and reduces tolerance. And that's bad. So since ISIS can aptly be described without the term "Islamic", I have no problem not using it.

On a related note, I heard too many pundits and "experts" today cherry pick their preferred version of what ISIS is about, while ignoring the rest. That over-simplifies ISIS and is not helpful in my view. For example, a few said ISIS is motivated by the desire for revenge for the war in Iraq and our constant presence in the Middle East, and left it at that, hoping to further support for the idea that we must destroy ISIS or they will destroy us.

ISIS wasn't interested in attacking the West until the airstrikes. That's when their attacks began. And they did warn the U.S. against the strikes.

ISIS' is about much more than attacking the West. Its chief motivation is establishing its Caliphate, tearing down the borders in the Middle East, and implementing Sharia law. Everything it does is based upon its religious vision of the Apocalypse and preparing for the final battles in Dabiq (Syria) and "Rome" (which is not Italy, but either Turkey or any other place its Western enemies, come to fight the final battle.)

Back to Obama: I didn't get to hear his plan for a new online fight against ISIS' ideology. I'll be interested to see what it entails. If the new online campaigns can skip the patriotic flag-waving and mocking and insults to ISIS, and instead present and promote its alternative ideology in a positive light, it could get some traction. But castigating ISIS and its ideology will not work -- it's reminiscent of Reagan's "Just Say No" to drugs and the War on Drugs has been a huge failure. The West has to offer something tangible that's more desirable than what ISIS is offering, and it has to be something that is a realistic possibility for those living in places like Syria, Iraq and Libya. The last part may be the toughest.

Update: The new U.S. online campaign seems no different than its past attempts -- doomed to failure. Here's the latest tweet of the State Department. It can't stop itself from mixing insults with a positive message.
Terrorists offer misery/death - free societies & diverse communities offer path to opportunity, justice & dignity:
It should have left the sledgehammer at home and just sent out the positive idea:
Free and diverse communities offer path to opportunity, justice & dignity.

The idea alone is something to think about. By combining it with a negative judgment about ISIS, the whole thing will be dismissed by those the U.S. most wants to reach -- those who are already considering ISIS. It has a lecturing, value-laden tone, rather than a suggestive one.

Too bad. This could have had some promise.

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  • Display: Sort:
    The real (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:39:50 AM EST
    problem is fundamentalism. These people are fundamentalists and believe that the Koran is inerrant. You have to turn off all ability to reason if you become a fundamentalist. Fundamentalism breeds terrorism. Fundamentalism also feeds on poverty.

    This theory (none / 0) (#20)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:27:39 AM EST
    This theory no doubt explains the all to common Amish terrorists.

    Parent
    So you read (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:45:00 AM EST
    Ga6th's comment as meaning all religious fundamentalists are terrorists.

    That's funny.

    Parent

    Yes, like there haven't (none / 0) (#25)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:52:33 AM EST
    Been bombings of abortion clinics, or the murders of doctors and others because of RW-Christianist terrorists in this country.

    OTOH, if an imam somewhere in America looks at someone the wrong way, then we have to be terrorized because scary, spooky Mooslims, you know.

    Parent

    You betcha (none / 0) (#88)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 02:50:14 PM EST
    Happens all the time. It has become so commonplace that the news media is no longer bother to report it anymore.

    Parent
    I'm not (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:02:57 AM EST
    sure the Amish would be considered fundamentalists. I don't see them cutting off their hands because it sinned like Eric Rudolph's brother did. they also do not believe in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth like fundamentalists do either.

    Parent
    What Do You Think a Fundamentalist Is ? (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:12:48 AM EST
    Hint, it's not what the Amish and Mennonites teach.  At the center is a serious commitment to non-violence, family, and religion. In that order.

    If you must classify them, traditionalists would be more appropriate.  But they in no way take the word of the bible, literally.

    My dad does a lot of business with them.  And FYI, they do not use electricity or gas engines except for commerce purposes.  So that Amish table you see in a store was created using some form of modern power, but the people who made it do not use that power in their daily lives.  But because there is no centralized church/council, each group is independents for rules vary for each settlement.

    Parent

    Good description. (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 07:33:05 PM EST
    I live across the river from Lancaster County, PA. Not from here, a transplant. And I'm an atheist. But I never considered the Amish to be fundamentalists. I think traditionalist nails it. I have respect for the Amish. They live their beliefs, they don't proselytize and they certainly not vengeful. They very publicly forgave the shooter after the Nickel Mines school shootings.

    Parent
    poverty as a cause is a myth (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by thomas rogan on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 10:23:14 AM EST
    Many, many of the active extremists are in fact middle class or even rich as far as upbringing goes.  Even Osama Bin Laden, who was brought up wealthy.

    This is true (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 08:39:07 AM EST
    poverty provides the cannon fodder though.

    Parent
    exactly (none / 0) (#126)
    by sj on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 12:35:11 PM EST
    Said much more succinctly than what came to my mind.

    Parent
    Osama bin laden lived in poverty? (none / 0) (#127)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    Osama Bin Laden (none / 0) (#128)
    by CST on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    wasn't cannon fodder

    Parent
    I'm going to reiterate my belief (none / 0) (#129)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 01:38:55 PM EST
    that extremism is caused by a feeling of being wronged. Patriots fans being prime examples. ;-)

    Parent
    well considering recent events (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by CST on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 01:55:23 PM EST
    It's pretty clear that God was in fact rooting for  the Seahawks all along, and decided to go all extremist on us when the Pats made a deal with the devil to win anyway.  And now hell hath frozen over.

    We're sorry.  Please make it stop.

    Parent

    I blame Belichick too. (none / 0) (#131)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 02:08:24 PM EST
    Many people who smoke ... (none / 0) (#49)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:39:15 AM EST
    ... don't get lung cancer.  Some non-smokers get lung cancer.  Doesn't mean that smoking as a cause of lung cancer is a "myth".

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#50)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:47:40 AM EST
    many of the ringleaders and of course their finacers come from relative wealth, but I would surmise that most of the foot soldiers and "lone rats" come from lower income classes.

    Parent
    The foot soldiers are (none / 0) (#66)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:42:51 PM EST
    paid $400/month, according to this article, plus a bonus per wife and per child.  Elsewhere I have read that Iraqi minimum wage is about $150/month.

    Parent
    Why doesn't he just call them (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Jim in St Louis on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 03:02:39 PM EST
    Bitter Clingers?

    Another "expert" weighs in (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:20:38 PM EST
    Bill Donohue:

    DONOHUE: Well look, the hate speech against Christians, and I want to make very clear, I'm not comparing ISIS to what goes on in this country, but let's face it, if you turn on late night talk shows, you turn on Bill Maher, who are they trashing? Take a look at the news releases I put out daily. It's Catholics practically every single night. They don't go after Muslims. They don't go after Jews and I'm not asking them to do so to get equal time.

    Wow, I really glad to'hear that Bill Maher has never gone after Muslims on their beliefs. Isn't it wonderful that Donohue stays so well informed on these issues. <extreme snark>

    Apparently, (none / 0) (#99)
    by Zorba on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 06:01:11 PM EST
    Bill Donohue has never heard of Google.
    Because the first thing that popped up when I Googled "Bill Maher on Muslims" was this.
    And there's a whole lot more links besides that one.
    Perhaps someone should educate Donohue on the use of search engines and how to do some minimal research before he opens his trap.
    OTOH, you can't fix stupid.

    Parent
    Come on, Zorba (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by MO Blue on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 06:15:14 PM EST
    Facts would only interfere with his  talking points. If he restricted himself to facts, he could never get beyond just stating his name. He wouldn't have enough dialog to fill the time slot allotted to him.

    Parent
    Donohue (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 06:15:51 PM EST
    is a perfect example of what causes extremism, an ignorant, intolerant religious hot head. In another time and another place he would probably have blood on his hands.

    Parent
    We need the Islamic world (none / 0) (#1)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 18, 2015 at 09:01:19 PM EST
    to help us defeat ISIS.  When you denigrate the entire religion and agree we are in a holy or religious war, it does make the effort all that more difficult.

    Baloney Jeralyn (none / 0) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 18, 2015 at 10:12:37 PM EST
    In June of last year ISIS made a threat to our President.  They said they were coming for him.  Air strikes didn't occur until September.

    that wasn't ISIS (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:13:57 AM EST
    it was a tweet by an ISIS supporter. ISIS fanboys (and even its fighters) do not speak for ISIS. ISIS official releases are the only things that can be attributed to them. You can buy the kool-aid, I'm not and I'd appreciate you not spreading it here.

    Parent
    Their fanboys speak for them (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 07:15:27 AM EST
    When you say, and don't speak for them when you say. Really?

    Parent
    I went and searched it (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 07:36:19 AM EST
    That threat was originally made by the leader of ISIS Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. He made that threat in an audio message on January 21, 2014....2014


    Parent
    Ooh, (none / 0) (#17)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:12:04 AM EST
    That's real scary, folks.  I hope they doubled his Secret Service staff after that.

    Parent
    Not what was being discussed (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:52:26 AM EST
    Jeralyn made this claim

     ISIS wasn't interested in attacking the West until the airstrikes.

    It would seem that Baghdadi's threat that was made over a year ago, and embraced by ISIS supporters by June 2014 as well, challenges that notion.

    Parent

    One threat and no action (none / 0) (#26)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:02:18 AM EST
    By any ISIS wannabes until noe does not make ISIS a threat to the West.  

    I just heard on the TeeVee that ISIS is now threatening Italy.  

    They keep biting off more than they can chew, IMHO.  Not the road to victory.

    Parent

    It would seem they were "interested" in (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:04:30 AM EST
    Attacking the West from day 1 though.  That's what is being discussed, interest.

    Parent
    It's (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:07:52 AM EST
    the international version of the culture war. Just like the GOP always cranks up the culture war here, they seem to be able to crank it up over there

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:08:37 AM EST
    And I'm "interested" in winning (none / 0) (#32)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:12:49 AM EST
    The lottery.  That doesn't mean that I'll ever be successful at doing so.  

    However, if the reaction of the Western countries is to take such threats so seriously that any Muslim living within their borders is a potential asset to ISIS and treats them accordingly, then ISIS wins the propaganda battle.  

    You take the ISIS propaganda seriously,  I do not.

    Parent

    You are still interested in winning the lottery (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:16:48 AM EST
    You are much more likely to buy a ticket than someone not interested.  Once again...we are talking about interest.  ISIS was interested in attacking the West apparently from its inception.


    Parent
    Yes, but there is a great gap between (none / 0) (#36)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:28:40 AM EST
    intentions and their ability to carry them out.  

    It's like taking the trash talk before a game between two college or pro sport teams as a serious guide to the outcome of the game.

    Parent

    We are discussing interest (none / 0) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:31:45 AM EST
    Or at least I am

    I think you are discussing something else.

    Parent

    Any jihadi group is going (none / 0) (#40)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:53:16 AM EST
    To be against Western nations, so it's part of their "branding".  

    You seem to want to take them as seriously as they take themselves, MT.

    Parent

    I am discussing interest (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:55:27 AM EST
    Jeralyn made an assertion, but evidence indicates that ISIS was interested in attacking the West before airstrikes ever took place.

    Parent
    What concrete actions did they take (none / 0) (#43)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:59:22 AM EST
    aside from their trash-talking against the West?  

    None.  

    No lone wolves, no attacks organized by Western ISIS supporters before the air strikes, IIRC.

    Those are the facts.  If you don't like them, that's your problem, not mine.

    Parent

    From Day 1... (none / 0) (#33)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:16:20 AM EST
    ...you mean the day American soldiers landed on traditional Muslim territory/lands ?

    What does Day 1 mean ?

    Parent

    ISIS came to the forefront about (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:20:53 AM EST
    The same time Baghdadi made that address. Once again we are discussing interest and ISIS being interested in attacking the West.  Once again, Jeralyn claimed ISIS was not interested in attacking the West until airstrikes, and I am simply pointing out they were interested before airstrikes.

    Parent
    Tracy... (none / 0) (#38)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:45:19 AM EST
    ...you proved the one claim was inaccurate, but you are acting like the US wasn't involved in Iraq or Syria until ISIS arrived/formulated.

    Day 1 was long ago, ISIS didn't just appear out of thin air, it's a hybrid of many that has been brewing in the slow cooker for years, if not decades.

    I think Jeralyn's general point that we are the ones to blame is valid. She may have missed the mark with ISIS, but the people who make it up were disfranchised and mad as hell at the US long before ISIS was created/assembled, or whatever you want to call it.

    They are not our neighbors, these are people thousands of miles from our borders, they are people who had absolutely nothing to do with acts of terrorism against the US circa 2001 and before.  They did not just wake up one morning and randomly decide that people on the other side of the planet are so god awful that they should die horrible deaths.  

    It took a lot of hard work and dedication to get people to hate us that much.  And while I despise ISIS and their tactics, I get why they don't like us, I don't like us in regards to decades of horrific foreign policy and intervention into what I would call, 'None of our GD business.'  

    But they have to be stopped now, and the real question is our policies and actions going to ensure something worse formulates next decade,  ISIS cubed if you will, with more power and more funds because we totally focked it up, again.  My answer, using history, it's almost guaranteed.  At some point we are going to have to let it go, or commitment to a permanent state of war in the Middle East.  And unfortunately, I know that answer as well, and like the other answer, it's almost guaranteed.

    Parent

    No, I'm not acting like that at all Scott (none / 0) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:59:15 AM EST
    I am simply not willing to fudge the facts.  I have numerous writings about the immorality of the Iraq War.

    I am not going to fudge facts though.  It serves no worthy purpose in deductive reasoning.  The fact is ISIS was interested in attacking the West before airstrikes ever occurred.

    Parent

    Agreed... (none / 0) (#46)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 10:53:32 AM EST
    ...sorry if I put words in your mouth.

    Her point, not that one fact, still stand.

    Parent

    Well, OK... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:30:36 AM EST
    but to the extent there is a coherent point in Jeralyn's post is it not:

    ISIS' is about much more than attacking the West. Its chief motivation is establishing its Caliphate, tearing down the borders in the Middle East, and implementing Sharia law. Everything it does is based upon its religious vision of the Apocalypse and preparing for the final battles in Dabiq (Syria) and "Rome" (which is not Italy, but either Turkey or any other place its Western enemies, come to fight the final battle.)

       The rest of Jeralyn's writing in this and other posts on this subject appear (and often  bizarrely so) to conflict with points she concedes in that paragraph. I'm sure we will say I am misinterpreting her, but I appear not to be alone in wondering just what in heck she is trying to say in her obsessive  and disquieting posting on her perceptions of ISIS

    Parent

    It's less (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 09:46:09 AM EST
    about attacking the west then provoking the west to attack them. All their threats and increasing barbarous actions are all planned to draw the west into their twisted theological end game. Sure they love to see attacks in the west, but the best they can do is "inspire" the same lone wolves who would have been claiming allegiance to Al-Qaeda a couple of years ago.

    Parent
    The "eye (none / 0) (#3)
    by lentinel on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:03:07 AM EST
    for an eye" thing is nothing new - and not exclusive to an interpretation of Islam.

    Read Deuteronomy 20:16 and 20:17.

    It is pretty fierce:

    Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them... as the LORD your God has commanded you,...

    Ain't nothin' new.

    I like Obama's formulation.
    It is treating the people as human beings.

    He said poverty, lack of options, and perceptions of mistreatment by those in power are big factors.

    I would expand on that a little to say that there is also the "perception" of mistreatment by foreign powers - and the installation and support of despots by those foreign powers.

    A perception that is not unwarranted, in my opinion.

    Who is reading our State Department's tweets? (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:39:00 AM EST


    I do (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:14:32 AM EST
    From this post I gather you view (none / 0) (#12)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 06:24:12 AM EST
    the State Departments tweets as an outreach, similar to Voice of America's efforts to influence people who lived in communist-ruled countries. I'm having trouble envisioning the target audience following the U.S. Department of State's twitter feed.

    Parent
    Tweets from the Great Satan. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:33:58 AM EST

    These may be counterproductive.

    Parent
    More of the same (none / 0) (#5)
    by Slado on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:06:50 AM EST
    Like the previous administration we are using the need to not offend the rest of the Islamic world as our starting point when it comes to how we talk about and combat Radical Islam.

    For me this is self defeating.  Islam is not like Catholocism, there is no Pope to meet with.  Groups like CAIR are great and all but they don't speak for the people of the Middle East.   The best a conference like this can hope to achieve is maybe a tweet from the state department convinces a young disenfranchised male to go on a date rather then staying at home watching ISIS propoganda videos.

    More to the point Obama's reading of the state of Islam and the source of extremism continues to be misguided because ISIS and groups like it didn't make this stuff up and you can hear the same basic rhetoric or something far too similar throughout the Muslim world and as we all know we only need to look as far as our good "ally" Saudi Arabia to find one of the main sources.   A simple YouTube search and you can find plenty of clerics spouting the same propaganda and they aren't what the president would call "extremists".  

    While almost all Muslims want to go through life peacefully how many are being exposed to the ideology and how many are sympathetic?   How do we stop the source of the Ideology ISIS and other groups are using to justify their actions?

    Pretending they made it all up themselves just means we will continue to fail.

    Do you want (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:37:01 AM EST
    Jordan and Turkey to help us fight ISIS? If you keep putting it in the perspective of a holy war and couching it in religious terms you are not going to get any help from the neighboring countries.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#11)
    by Slado on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:41:29 AM EST
    And we have diplomatic, financial and military aid to use as our leverage.

    And again it's not a holy war that we started but we can't pret the other side isn't fight one and I also think we way overestimate our ability to offend.  

    Parent

    Pew Poll (none / 0) (#9)
    by Slado on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:38:11 AM EST
    As I state above most Muslims would never commit or be part of terrorism but how many are sympathetic and are exposed to the same ideology?

    Pew Poll

    21% sympathetic to extremism?  

    13% see suicide bombings as rarely to fully justified?

    Do the math assuming 2.6 million American Muslims and you get 546,000 and 336,000 respectively.  Not hard to imagine the right radical Imam picks off a few to do extremist things.

    Thankfully our culture seems to lessen or attract the far less supportive because when you look at the comparative numbers from actual Islamic countries it's much scarier.

    It's high time we worry less about offending the Muslim world and get serious about how we convince our 13 and 21% fellow citizens that they are wrong.

    Parent

    Somehow you feel that (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 07:40:09 AM EST
    Christians and Jews demonizing their religion will convince our 13 and 21% fellow citizens that they are wrong?

    Good luck with that.

    Parent

    Isn't there always 13-21% of any population (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 07:44:45 AM EST
    That is nuts fringe?  I know at least 13% of the South would like for me to be stoned to death for being a horrid shameless feminist whore ;)

    Parent
    Well since 13% of our fellow citizens (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by MO Blue on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:22:14 AM EST
    Feel that way, the only appropriate response is to identify and demonize their religion. Under this premise, all people must be judged by the 13%.

    And of course, there are the politicians and media personalities who obtain wealth and power by promoting that ideology so the entire religion(s) and all who practice it must be judged by those standards.

    Parent

    This is fun (none / 0) (#45)
    by CST on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 10:37:35 AM EST
    I always like to play the "what do Americans believe" game.  And yes, many of us are totally nuts!

    Link 1
     - most relevant part, "13% of voters think Barack Obama is the anti-Christ"
     - most confusing part, "Just 5% of voters believe that Paul McCartney actually died in 1966" - wait, WHAT?

    And for less scientifically validated results:

    Link 2
     - most relevant part is that 30% of Americans believe the bible is the literal word of God
     - funniest part is that 30% of Americans pronounce meme as me-me.  The horror.

    Parent

    Me Me... (none / 0) (#47)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:14:49 AM EST
    ...must come from the me/me generation.

    Yeah Americans, some totally insane fools.

    According to THIS a whopping 77% of people believe aliens have visited the Earth.  That is more than believe in Jesus, jesus.

    And while I believe there are other life forms in the universe, the time/distance thing is just too impractical for any sort of inter-galaxy traveling.

    Voyager I will exit the Ort Cloud in 30,000 years, which is more of less the boundary of our solar system.  Humans will be lucky to inhabit the Earth by the time one of their devises reached the edge of their tiny solar system.  

    But hot damn if 3 of 4 think other advanced life forms can do it no problem, and for some unknown reason, don't bother to say 'hello'.

    Parent

    What is the percentage (none / 0) (#111)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 10:57:22 PM EST
    who believe Elvis is alive and that they have personally been abducted by aliens?....

    And I would not discount the response that is a type of eff you response to pollsters...

    Parent

    Pardon the expression, but Good God, (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:03:12 PM EST
    Slado - really?

    I can't tell you how much I am hating these conversations.  

    What do you suppose would be going on in this country if we didn't have a secular legal system?  What if it was religious law that controlled what people were and were not permitted to do, and the punishments for violating the laws were those prescribed in or by the controlling religious authority?

    I'm thinking it would look a lot like what we're seeing in the middle east.  And I think groups with more stringent interpretations of the controlling religious authority might very well be organized to impose those interpretations on others.  As it is, there is organization here, and it's only been the legal system that's prevented them from prevailing.

    Isn't part of the problem that some people refuse to allow their religious beliefs to take a back seat to a secular government authority?  Or accept someone of one religion telling someone of another religion that they are wrong to believe what they do?

    I don't have the answers.  I don't think anyone does.  There is no simple, black-and-white answer that will end thousands of years of turmoil created by religious intolerance and usher in an era of peace and acceptance.

    Would that there was.

    Parent

    I'n response to a couple posts... (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Slado on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:26:35 PM EST
    I don't have the answer of how to solve this but I'm pointing out that we can't even begin to have any answers when our leadership can't even face the reality of the situation.

    A group of extremists that want to destroy and conquer us is running amuck in Iraq and Syria.   But they aren't the only ones around the world with similar views and ambitions and they are all Muslims.   They are not practing some new age Islam but instead practicing the literal Islam practiced at the beginning of the faith.

    The mental gymnastics that our administration is doing to deny this reality paralyses it and keeps us stuck in the same mentality that led to Iraq, torture, Lybia, our drone war etc...  Meaning we can fight wars all we want but until we confront the ideology we are just spinning our wheels and killing a lot of people while doing it.  Also theorizing that if right wingers had their way we'd somehow be living in a theocracy is just a crazy arguement and equally as distracting to what is real and right in front of us.

    Also why do we care if we offend?   Why is Islam so special?

    I'd argue that anyone that is going to be offended is either already offended, is going to be offended if we do anything or doesn't care and has already declared a holy war on us.  

    This is an Islamic problem before a western one because way more Muslims are dying then we are.  We should be calling for them to confront the extremists or we start removing aid and we should start demanding that they improve their human rights violations against women, religious minorities and homosexuals which we simply ignore for whatever reason.


    Parent

    "Confront the extremists" (none / 0) (#112)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:00:36 PM EST
    Just how would you do that? Call them names like John Wayne (who by the way avoided service during WWII)?

    By calling the terrorists names that affirm their role as defenders of the true Islam, you validate their religious claims.....Not very smart.....Not fair to the billion or so peaceful Muslims....

    Parent

    President "Legitimate Grievances" (none / 0) (#18)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:19:29 AM EST

    President "Legitimate Grievances"  seems to think that legitimate grievances are the root cause of Islamic radical violence. Nonsense. The same root causes are common around the world to many different cultures, but only one culture seems to feel beheading, burning alive, and sex slavery is therefore somehow appropriate.

    Further, life is all about learning to live with the daily ration of legitimate grievances we all face. That nut job that murdered the three young Muslims had a legitimate grievance over their parking in the space reserved for visitors.  The diner delivered buttered toast when you ordered dry.  The neighbors play their music too loud.  Etc, etc.

    The point is everyone has more legitimate grievances than you can count. That is no cause for mass murder or genocide.

    The president of Egypt has called for reformation within Islam. Our president undercuts that call with the grievance nonsense.  

    No one (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:43:47 AM EST
    Absolutely no one is saying that "legitimate grievances" justify the actions taken by terrorists, but that repression and a failure to provide a means to address legitimate grievances provides a breeding ground for terrorism.

    Parent
    Along with (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Slado on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 05:29:37 PM EST
    And more importantly their religion.

    The one they quote while they commit the acts.

    What so many find confusing is if we even mention this reality we might offend someone.

    Parent

    Here's (none / 0) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 06:15:48 PM EST
    the thing conservatives can't accept. Fundamentalism is the problem. Fundamentalism is what causes Muslims to think they are doing the work of God by killing people. Fundamentalism is the real scourge of the world right now. Fundamentalism is the reason gay people are put to death in Africa. You have to turn off reason to be a fundamentalist. Fundamentalism is hell fire and damnation and uses fear and hate to manipulate people and spur them to do horrible things. Literal interpretation of 2000 year old texts is complete idiocy.  

    Parent
    Really? I've never heard ... (none / 0) (#105)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 07:05:49 PM EST
    ... that mentioned before.  It must be because the media is afraid of offending someone.

    Parent
    I'm pretty sure that what causes extremism (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:53:27 AM EST
    is the feeling of being wronged and the resulting desire to right the wrong. The more profound the feeling of being wronged results in the more profound desire to right it, iow, extremism.

    I Agree... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:29:28 PM EST
    ...and not that it's the same, but it's relevant that when the US got sick of Brittan and started to fight them, we used an unheard of tactic, gorilla warfare, which many in Brittan considered appalling.  We had to, fighting the worlds most formidable Army in formation would have ensure a loss.

    I think the other angle has to do with resources, can you fight them head on, and if not, then it's going to boil down to fighting in a way that get results.  With the size of our Armed Forces, we will never fight another conventional war, it would be Saddam circa 1991, a cake walk for us and done in 6 months.

    Terrorizing populations is serving a purpose and the worse part about it, it is working, always has, since man decided to wage war, someone figured out that being a savage is a good thing.  And really, pretending that there is a decent/honorable way to kill people is a myth we use to justify our own savagery.

    Parent

    "Guerilla" (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:33:05 PM EST
     

    Parent
    Not to go all epistemological on you, (none / 0) (#56)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:07:18 PM EST
    but doesn't that just beg the question of why some people or groups feel so  profoundly wronged as to justify resort to "extremism" when subjected to the same stimuli and conditions as other who don't?

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#63)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:37:08 PM EST
    100 years of manipulation, colonization, exploitation, war and other general mayhem visited upon the region by western powers contribute to the "stimuli and conditions" that are causing these "wronged" feelings.

    Parent
    no doubt (none / 0) (#64)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:39:33 PM EST
       but that illustrates my point, doesn't it?

      Why do only some exposed to manipulation .... etc. resort to such tactics?

    Parent

    not really (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    Oppression will always cause extremism among at least a segment of the oppressed. When, how and if this extremism is manifested depends upon the size of the authoritarian boot that is on their necks.

    Parent
    Your second assertion is demonstrably untrue. (none / 0) (#71)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:08:51 PM EST
    Oversimplifying complex problems to fit one's prejudices is also perhaps human nature, but it helps none.

    Parent
    Then demonstrate it. (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:58:43 PM EST
    I suggest beginning with the past five or ten thousand years of earth history.

    Parent
    lets see (none / 0) (#86)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 02:30:21 PM EST
    Muslims in the middle east, Catholics in N Ireland, native Americans,  the French underground in WW2, Hindus in India under British and many, many more people of all ethnicities and religions have all showed extremism in the face of oppression. Please demonstrate where I am wrong.

    Parent
    You don't even (none / 0) (#94)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 03:53:39 PM EST
     seem to understand what you write means. I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain what I write.

      I'd suggest extensive English and History study for you. Critical reasoning wouldn't be a poor idea either. Until then, I think I will just ignore you.


    Parent

    Good idea (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 04:29:24 PM EST
    A wise man once said "it's better to stay silent and be thought the fool, rather then speak and prove it" Funny that there are plenty of people here, many with diametrically opposite positions, who understand where I am coming from and are able to carry on a reasonable debate, with decent point counterpoint arguments. Your debate tactics seem to declare my opinions "demonstrability false" without offering any counterpoint to them except calling me dumb. Go find some name calling blog to spew on, you obviously can not compete on a thinking person's blog like TL.                                                                                  

    Parent
    ...and this is the other reason (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 06:20:36 PM EST
    why I rarely spend much time in these kinds of topics.

    Parent
    Sometimes it's (none / 0) (#104)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 06:35:54 PM EST
    more fun to dance with the devil then preach to the choir. Of course trying to convert the heathen to by brand of godless liberalism  is a tedious and hopeless task. I do get a kick out of watching them tie themselves into rhetorical knots over historical and scientific facts that oppose their opinion.

    Parent
    It's the tried and true technique, FLJoe... (none / 0) (#118)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 09:21:29 AM EST
    When you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them will bull$$$t.

    Parent
    or (none / 0) (#119)
    by FlJoe on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 09:36:29 AM EST
    tie them up with tired talking points. Sooooo predictable.

    Parent
    I think even among... (none / 0) (#92)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 03:30:38 PM EST
    the most poor and oppressed groups susceptible to the allure of fighting evil with evil, most still find something positive in life to live for, instead of choosing murder and death via violent extremism.

    Not really comparable, but that's what keeps me from storming the White House or the halls of money on Wall St, even if I may be technically "justified" in doing so because of past wrongs done to our (less) poor and oppressed...I got too much to live for man. The people I love, the people that love me, music, the sunrise, weed...all them simple pleasures.  

    Talking out my arse here, but I am convinced at least a few sleeper terrorists have come to the US from abroad to do damage, only to realize this place ain't so bad and change their minds.  They found the positive to offset the negative.

    Parent

    Plus... (none / 0) (#93)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 03:39:46 PM EST
    ...no one is offering you an eternity with 72 women.  While I don't know, but I am pretty sure if folks in these lands truly believed that, we would have a real problem on our hands.

    Parent
    Also, those who come from countries that (none / 0) (#113)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:06:52 PM EST
    are clearly outmatched, have few tools to make a mark.   They resort to terrorist acts in part because the are over matched militarily by Israel and the West.

    A twisted inferiority complex.....If they had true power, they would not need to resort to terrorist acts....But doing so requires comparatively few resources and few soldiers....It is not that hard to perpetrate barbaric acts of terror.....That is much easier than invading Saudi Arabia....

    Parent

    It does beg that question. (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:41:10 PM EST
    And I don't think I have an answer.

    Parent
    feel profoundly wronged become extremists.

    Parent
    Nor does anyone else. (none / 0) (#68)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:46:03 PM EST
      It's perhaps also human nature to assume we can answer questions/solve problems with enough properly directed and well intentioned effort. Unfortunately there is scant evidence to support that assumption.

    Parent
    Agreed. (none / 0) (#70)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    Extremists feel profoundly wronged. Great, solving this apparent mystery helps exactly how? In the real world, not at all. Which is why I rarely spend much time in these kinds of topics.

    Parent
    How Much Better Would the World be (none / 0) (#52)
    by RickyJim on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:56:47 AM EST
    if religions hadn't been invented?   Just askin'.

    Not Possible IMO... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:11:00 PM EST
    ...every group that has ever existed created some form of religious doctrine, it's in our DNA.  A better question might be what if we were all the same religion.  The big 3 pray to the same god and much of their ancestry intermingles.

    Beyond the extremists, the basic tenants of all religions are the same, which basically boil down to being a good person.

    One 5 min visit from god and all of it could be solved, no more 'my god', no more 'no god', everyone would worship the correct deity.  5 mins and maybe an updated book of rules, then there could be no excuse for not believing or doing.

    But for some reason, none of the god's will step in to stop the violence.  It either doesn't care enough to stop it, doesn't have that kind of power, or doesn't exist.

    Parent

    We were given free will. (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:22:40 PM EST
    That ends when God steps in.

    Parent
    So His Proxies... (none / 0) (#75)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:27:45 PM EST
    ...aka as sons, were sent and had no absolutely effect on free will.  Good one.

    Parent
    I'm not sure what your point is (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:32:59 PM EST
    but yes, His "sons" had no effect on "free will."

    Both had huge influence on the behavior and beliefs of people.

    Parent

    being given Free Will (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:40:42 PM EST
    was God stepping in..

    He/She/It didn't have to "step in" after that..

    And in other crack-brained right wing news, in response to people objecting to the perennial wingnut assault on the separation of church and state, Fox savant Bill O'Reilly publicly declares that Christianity isn't a religion but a "philosophy"..

    Parent

    So you opine that (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 02:09:26 PM EST
    mankind doesn't have "free will?"

    And what my statement has anything to do with separation of church and state and O'Reilly I have absolutely no idea.

    Oh wait. You just needed to snark. Okay. Bye now.

    Parent

    I opine that "he" does (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 02:20:49 PM EST
    but that people who imbibe talk radio are Fox News are abusing it -- the way some crackers and  and teabaggers abuse the live stock and close female relatives.

    Parent
    If You Mean... (none / 0) (#91)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 03:23:59 PM EST
    ...we are free to do what we want so long as we do what it wants, the sure we have free will.  Whats a little threat about spending eternity in hell.

    Threatening to harm someone if they don't so what you want is not in any sense free will, it's a threat.  It's why contracts are not legal if they are coerced.  But hey, who knew the mafia was so godly and they threaten a couple broken bones, not an infinity in hell.

    Parent

    I think we're talking past each other (none / 0) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:09:51 PM EST
    Let me try again.

    In the Christian faith it is believed/understood that God gave people "free will."

    Being threatened or promised something if you respond the "right" way has nothing to do with having "free will" to do what you want to do in respect to God's rules/commandments/teachings.

     

    Parent

    Tell That to the Torturers... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 08:58:19 AM EST
    ...down at GITMO, because I am positive they were using physical force to try and effect free will.

    Parent
    The conversation started out by (none / 0) (#121)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 10:43:07 AM EST
    you opining.

    One 5 min visit from god and all of it could be solved, no more 'my god', no more 'no god', everyone would worship the correct deity.  5 mins and maybe an updated book of rules, then there could be no excuse for not believing or doing.

    My point was simple. We were given free will and that ends when God steps in.

    I have no idea as to why you find that debatable or why it makes you want to bring up unrelated subjects.

    Parent

    My Point Was Free Will is a Myth... (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 10:49:17 AM EST
    ...and that god stepping in could end all the religious BS for everyone.  But that it neither has that ability or cares to end religious strife on planet Earth.

    It's debatable; just because you say its so, and proven almost every day, doesn't make it so.

    Parent

    Okay, I see your point. (none / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 11:26:01 AM EST
    I would note, as I do to my friends who claim that God created heaven and earth in 6 days that we haven't the vaguest idea as to what a day is in God's time. It may be a billion years in our time. We simply don't know. And it is fruitless to argue over it. To me, a believer, He did.

    And if you argue that man doesn't have free will you are trending towards predisposition. If you are supposed to be a killer you will be a killer because that is in God's plan. You have no will. I think that is nonsense.

    We are given free will by the grace of God.

    That people try, and may even succeed, in controlling that "will" doesn't change that basic point.

    Parent

    It seems to me that we all invented God (none / 0) (#123)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 11:06:44 AM EST
    To explain what we could not explain.  I think that is why most religions often fight scientific progress, but as we understand we all lose reasons to need Gods.

    Parent
    Possibly worse (none / 0) (#57)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:14:57 PM EST
     It's (too) easy to look at the history of inter-religious conflict and conclude the existence of religion has  caused of divisions and strife. But:

      We cannot measure (or really even perceive) the degree to which the unifying effect of religion has ameliorated potential conflicts between groups that came to share like religious beliefs.

      We also surmise that the impulse (instinct?)among humans  to divide and segregate into opposing groups exists apart from supernatural beliefs and the religious divisions are as much symptom as cause.

       To some extent to certain (not all) religious beliefs can serve to restrain divisive or violent conduct.

    Parent

    Before Weapons of Mass Destruction (none / 0) (#132)
    by RickyJim on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 02:19:47 PM EST
    I would agree that religion had enough going for it to justify itself.  Today, the huge emotional content and support for tribalism it has makes it one of the prime dangers that may cause the end of civilization as we know it.

    Parent
    Not to go all epistemological on you, (none / 0) (#53)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:00:18 PM EST
    but doesn't that just beg the question of why some people or groups feel so  profoundly wronged as to justify resort to "extremism" when subjected to the same stimuli and conditions as other who don't?

    Obama was a community organizer (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:02:13 PM EST
    so his responses are predictable. He sees economic issues as one of the ways to defeat radical islamists.

    After we have defeated ISIS, and those like it, economic progress, freedom of speech, democracy, et al, will be very important in keeping ISIS from reemerging long enough.

    The keyword is "after."

    So if his answer ... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:30:37 PM EST
    ... is because he was a community organizer, why did GW Bush also repeatedly say that fighting poverty was integral to fighting terrorism?

    Link 1

    Many here today have devoted their lives to the fight against global poverty, and you know the stakes. We fight against poverty because hope is an answer to terror. We fight against poverty because opportunity is a fundamental right to human dignity. We fight against poverty because faith requires it and conscience demands it. And we fight against poverty with a growing conviction that major progress is within our reach.

    [...]

    We will challenge the poverty and hopelessness and lack of education and failed governments that too often allow conditions that terrorists can seize and try to turn to their advantage.

    Link 2

    We must change the conditions that allow terrorists to flourish and recruit by spreading the hope of freedom to millions who've never known it. We must help raise up the failing states and stagnant societies that provide fertile ground for the terrorists. We must defend and extend a vision of human dignity and opportunity and prosperity, a vision far stronger than the dark appeal of resentment and murder.

    To spread the vision of hope the United States is determined to help nations that are struggling with poverty.



    Parent
    And why bring up something we all know?? (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:28:08 PM EST
    I mean I didn't say it was bad.

    I just noted that it can't work in the middle of a war. Something Bush, if you want to assign ownership of a very well known and very old concept, proved with his attempt at "nation building."


    Parent

    Because your claim was this (none / 0) (#79)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:43:49 PM EST
    Obama was a community organizer so his responses are predictable. He sees economic issues as one of the ways to defeat radical islamists.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with Obama being a community organizer.  Your boy GW - far from a community organizer - said the very same things.  the thing is - they were right.  You can't expect to wait until the end of a never-ending/indeterminate war and then say - after we've destroyed your counties - then we'll address your grievances, including poverty.  The war will never end.

    Parent

    Obama and other "community organizers" (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 02:00:06 PM EST
    invented the idea using of economic sanctions, blockades etc against hostile nations and factions? Who knew?

    Fascinating theory, Jim.

    The talk radio/Fox nexus is really fixated on that community organizer thing..they don't know what it means, but it sounds like communism..Plus people helpin' people is socialistic. Hell, everybody knows that..

    Parent

    So your claim is that the past (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 02:02:39 PM EST
    experiences of people have no bearing on what they do in the present??

    And did you miss this?

    Something Bush, if you want to assign ownership of a very well known and very old concept, proved with his attempt at "nation building."

    And can you say that Afghanistan or Iraq or Yemen or Egypt is a success??

    No, you cannot. First you establish peace.

    Parent

    Read more slowly (none / 0) (#87)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 02:32:50 PM EST
    My claim is that your claim is BS - Obama didn't take his position re: the need to address poverty as part of a terrorism strategy because of his community organizer background any more than GW did.  It's just logical/common sense.

    Ohhhhh .....

    Parent

    Read my lips (none / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:13:00 PM EST
    denying that people don't come up with solutions based on their work background is not logical or common sense.

    And why are you so threatened by being reminded of Obama's background? Are you ashamed of it? Do you feel that it explains his many failures in foreign affairs?

    Parent

    They're not the problem (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:41:28 PM EST
    As usual, it's your specious claims made entirely without evidence and problems with basic logic.

    You claimed - without any evidence - that Obama's "predictable" response (addressing economic issues to defeat terrorism) was due to his background as a community organizer.  Your evidence?  Nothing.

    Bush did the very same thing, and he was not a community organizer.

    Oops.

    The rest of your "questions" are just more, silly, winger tripe.

    Shocker.

    BTW - Pretending you knew about Bush's comments was funny.

    Parent

    For how many years was Obama (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:12:07 PM EST
    a community organizer?

    I think that was a valuable experience.....Something that would benefit the hard right...

    He has done other things too...

    That really gets to you, the community organizer bit....You and Sarah Palin......

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 10:35:04 AM EST
    you think it was valuable. And I made no comment that it wasn't. My point was simply that his past experience influenced his actions.'

    Wow. How radical!

    Ymnan -  As usual, it's your specious claims made entirely without evidence and problems with basic logic.

    So you claim that people's past experiences have no influence on their current actions.

    Okay. You are welcome to that position. I'll keep believing that people are influenced by what they did in the past.

    Parent

    Reading comprehension? (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Yman on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 11:50:51 AM EST
    So you claim that people's past experiences have no influence on their current actions.

    You have enough trouble formulating your own thoughts, Jim.  Don't try to put words in my mouth.

    You claimed Obama made these decisions because he was a community organizer.  That's your evidence in its entirety.  Bush did the very same thing and he wasn't a community organizer.  My point is that your evidence, like your claim, is laughable.

    Parent

    Actually, Obama worked on Wall Street (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 11:09:27 PM EST
    too....before he became a community organizer.....but you guys have just got community organizer on the brain....This is a leftover prejudice from the 60s.....The modern version of punch the hippies....

    Parent
    I have heard two reasons for ISIS extremism (none / 0) (#58)
    by ZtoA on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:15:41 PM EST
    (and others' too, just liked these two the best). One was on the radio so I can't link. Only heard a snippet - like 15 minutes or so. The argument was that populations what are subject to a corrupt and oppressive rule resort to violent extremism.

    The other involves language. It is pretty obvious that the caliphate uses traditional Arabic astrology to advise ISIS. At least two of their major announcements have been drawn into charts and studied by the western world. The vast majority of americans cannot read this language, and probably great majorities of people across the globe too. It is loosely comparable to Latin - now a written language. Americans (and most Europeans) simply cannot read astrology. It's like one writes in Latin and the other reads 'written in igpay atinlay'.

    This was written by one of the world's leading astrologers. He is extremely knowledgeable about the histories of many astrological systems. He links to a very fascinating article on the announcement (went unnoticed) of the formation of ISIS. It is obvious that the announcement was very carefully chosen, in part to 'fly under the radar' for a while. Link- oops can't link so google 'Robert Hand July 3, 2014 Islamic State'. Be prepared to get a challenging read.  

    I cannot speak astrology and can read at a slightly advanced beginner level. But some people can - tho they are dismissed by western culture. In so doing, the west is completely missing the language of the caliphate and ISIS thinkers. No wonder that we 'umblebay' around! Opposing them on this level would actually mean something to them. Our tough talk, and talk talk talk about humanity means nothing to them. We are only talking to ourselves.

    another site (none / 0) (#59)
    by ZtoA on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 12:20:38 PM EST
    Link.  But I hate the design of the site. Interesting info tho.

    Parent
    Radical Islamists (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:24:50 PM EST
    believe that a religious or cosmological abstraction is more vitally important than the present wellbeing of the majority of living, breathing human beings on the planet, and here in America a significant % of the population believes that the establishment of an ideal neoliberal "Free Market" and the furtherance of major shareholder interests is more vitally important than the present wellbeing of the majority of living, breathing human beings on the planet.

    Both factions will also tell you, in so many words, that their marvelously abstract omelet recipes entail a "few eggs" being broken along the way..

    Interesting how often we find we find these two obsessed power-hungry hyper-materialist and hyper-spiritualist sides pointing fingers at each other..  

     

    Parent

    I think it is more than materialist vs (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by ZtoA on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 08:39:34 PM EST
    spiritualist. Look and listen to their recruiting materials. Its heavily - visuals (highly produced 'cool' looking reality-movies), and lots of 'cool' rap music. These are deeply emotional appeals and use popular culture very effectively.

    Jeralyn is very aware of uses of popular culture in argument persuasion. She has been posting about this and sharing ISIS visuals for a long time now. I don't think some intellectual-ish, dry statement like, for example, "ISIS is not muslim - they are anti-humanity", is going to combat the emotional appeal of culturally popular visuals and music.

    The US used to not be dumb about this. Art was very effectively used in the cold war against the USSR. I wish I had time to gather some links on this, since it has interested me for many years, but I go in for surgery very early tomorrow. But there was some Tim Robbins movie that mentioned these art wars - can't remember the movie name tho. Pop culture (the movie) referencing real life (the CIA) using pop culture and art to battle real life cold war.

    Curiouser and curiouser.

    Parent

    They are very good (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 21, 2015 at 01:01:36 AM EST
    At emotional hooks

    Parent
    Yes, of course (none / 0) (#90)
    by ZtoA on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 03:13:15 PM EST
    however to break free from simple finger pointing powers must learn how to communicate. ISIS knows how to. The west seems to refuse to learn ISIS language. It seems like arrogance pure and simple. Western culture simply refuses to perceive any other way of thinking than its own. In that regard the West makes itself into a willing tool for ISIS and other extremists.

    Parent
    "How ISIS Rules" (none / 0) (#80)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Feb 19, 2015 at 01:56:41 PM EST
    by Sarah Birke, The New York Review of Books.

    Unlike Jabhat al-Nusra, ISIS immediately made clear that its primary aims were not to fight Assad but to hold territory and immediately impose sharia rule, and it was willing to use more brutal tactics--particularly in killing civilians--than al-Qaeda to achieve them. (Al-Qaeda's central leadership had long criticized its Iraqi affiliate for being too brutal, and after the dispute between Baghdadi and al-Julani, ISIS split from al-Qaeda, leaving Jabhat al-Nusra as the group's affiliate in Syria.)


    Noam Chomsky explains it all (none / 0) (#133)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 09:33:14 PM EST
    America paved the way for ISIS.

    In fact, for a couple of years both sides were saying: there will never be Sunni-Shi'a conflicts. We're too intermingled in the nature of our lives, where we live, and so on. By 2006 there was a raging war. That conflict spread to the whole region. By now, the whole region is being torn apart by Sunni-Shi'a conflicts.

    The natural dynamics of a conflict like that is that the most extreme elements begin to take over. They had roots. Their roots are in the major US ally, Saudi Arabia. That's been the major US ally in the region as long as the US has been seriously involved there, in fact, since the foundation of the Saudi state. It's kind of a family dictatorship. The reason is it has a huge amount of oil.

    Britain, before the US, had typically preferred radical Islamism to secular nationalism. And when the US took over, it essentially took the same stand. Radical Islam is centered in Saudi Arabia. It's the most extremist, radical Islamic state in the world. It makes Iran look like a tolerant, modern country by comparison, and, of course, the secular parts of the Arab Middle East even more so.

    It's not only directed by an extremist version of Islam, the Wahhabi Salafi version, but it's also a missionary state. So it uses its huge oil resources to promulgate these doctrines throughout the region. It establishes schools, mosques, clerics, all over the place, from Pakistan to North Africa.

    An extremist version of Saudi extremism is the doctrine that was picked up by ISIS. So it grew ideologically out of the most extremist form of Islam, the Saudi version, and the conflicts that were engendered by the US sledgehammer that smashed up Iraq and has now spread everywhere.