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DOJ: No Civil Rights Charges Warranted for Zimmerman

The Department of Justice has announced the closure of its civil rights investigation against George Zimmerman. No charges will be filed due to insufficient evidence.

After a thorough and independent investigation into the facts surrounding the shooting, federal investigators determined that there is insufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a violation of these statutes. Accordingly, the investigation into this incident has been closed. This decision is limited strictly to the department’s inability to meet the high legal standard required to prosecute the case under the federal civil rights statutes; it does not reflect an assessment of any other aspect of the shooting.

[More...}

Federal investigators reviewed all of the material and evidence generated by the state of Florida in connection with its investigation and prosecution of Zimmerman, including witness statements, crime scene evidence, cell phone data, ballistics reports, reconstruction analysis, medical and autopsy reports, depositions, and the trial record. Federal investigators also independently conducted 75 witness interviews and obtained and reviewed the contents of relevant electronic devices. The investigation included an examination of police reports and additional evidence that was generated related to encounters Zimmerman has had with law enforcement in Florida since the state trial acquittal. In addition, federal authorities retained an independent biomechanical expert who assessed Zimmerman’s descriptions of the struggle and the shooting.

...The federal investigation examined whether Zimmerman violated civil rights statutes at any point during his interaction with Martin, from their initial encounter through the fatal shooting. This included investigating whether there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman violated Section 3631 by approaching Martin in a threatening manner before the fatal shooting because of Martin’s race and because he was using the residential neighborhood. Investigators also looked at whether there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman violated Section 3631 or Section 249, by using force against Martin either during their struggle or when shooting Martin, because of Martin’s race.

Hopefully, this case is now officially closed.

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    Right decision... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 04:00:16 PM EST
    never a good idea to warp and sully the law just to get a scalp.  Too much "show me the man and I'll find you the crime" as it is.

    The case is closed, but I fear we haven't heard the last from this guy...I hope he gets help and for god's sake gives up guns voluntarily.

    We probably haven't heard the last from GZ (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Jack203 on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 06:57:54 PM EST
    I'm glad you care about his well being.  His life is already ruined.   Many still want him destroyed.  It can't be easy being one of the hated person in the country.

    Parent
    No it can't... (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 11:11:26 AM EST
    and I'd imagine it must be even harder to carry the weight of killing a human being, and triggering the chain of events that made it happen, on your conscience.  I would hope that's the worst part, but I don't know the depth of his conscience.

    Parent
    New hated persons (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 11:22:56 AM EST
    appear on the scene to displace the Zimmermans the world all the time here..

    He can always move to Texas and run for office - and probably win - running on some sort of open carry, zero tolerance platform..

    Parent

    Well, that would depend (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by NYShooter on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 11:32:59 PM EST
    on your definition of "zero tolerance," wouldn't it.

    Here, in Tennessee, they've got it all figured out:

    A kid in our local high school was caught with a double-barreled Derringer in his possession after having bragged to friends he was "out to get someone at this school." Thankfully, one of the friends had the smarts to inform the authorities. However, this is Tennessee, one of the most liberal "carry law" states in the union.

    Thus, they announced they probably wouldn't prosecute the kid on any serious charges because he hadn't shown the "proper intent" to hurt anyone. You see, they claimed the gun wasn't loaded, so how could he hurt anyone with an unloaded gun? The simple fact that he carried the bullets for the gun in a pocket other than the one the gun was carried in was enough of a mitigating factor to go "lenient on the child."

    Parent

    Good story Shooter. (none / 0) (#79)
    by fishcamp on Fri Feb 27, 2015 at 07:55:25 AM EST
    Kinda makes you wonder about the word united in the United States of America.

    Parent
    Could you link us to this story? (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 27, 2015 at 10:48:46 AM EST
    It's interesting as a Double Barrel Derringer is a pretty unusual gun, but I've googled around and had no luck finding it.

    Parent
    Get a different browser: (none / 0) (#83)
    by NYShooter on Sat Feb 28, 2015 at 02:04:18 AM EST
    LINK

    Double Barrel Derringer 45/410 Leinad DD White
    First one up when I "googled" it.

    In any case, I'll try to find a link to the actual story, which is, I think, what you're really interested in. I caught the story on the TV news, so it may take a little while.

    Parent

    sorry for my confusing question.

    Parent
    Yeah, no problem, SUO, (none / 0) (#85)
    by NYShooter on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 03:13:00 AM EST
    I, actually did spend a considerable chunk of time yesterday looking to see if I could find a written story about that incident. Unfortunately, no luck so far. Like I mentioned, I didn't read about this incident in a newspaper, or a periodical; I just caught a fleeting verbal story, like, you know, just before going to a "hard advertising break," they rip off a half dozen, attention grabbing thought provokers.

    For this reason I didn't want to state what Town it happened in (I do know where it happened) for the very reason you're asking about it; not enough specific details. But, I'm sure you'll agree that mentioning a name, without the back-up detail, would just be unfair.

    But, worry not, this IS Tennessee, after all, and, as I've come to expect, this type of woah-ful-weirdo wackiness is not a rarity here.

    Stay tuned, my friend....."I hear the train, a'coming it's coming 'round the bend....."

    In the mean time, from the, "you can't make this stuff up file,".......enjoy.

    LINK


    Parent

    Derringer at high school (none / 0) (#86)
    by Howard on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 01:05:02 PM EST
    I think this may be the story of the "unloaded" derringer.  Location: Port Barre, Louisiana, not quite Tenn. but in TV broadcast range.

    www.dailyworld.com/story/news/local/2015/02/11/port-barre-high-student-arrested-fake-gun/23262623/

    Wonder what the law is regarding a replica gun, out of sight in a pocket and remaining un-brandished?

    Parent

    There was never enough evidence (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by McBain on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 08:53:20 PM EST
    to warrant a criminal trial in the first place.  The two judges who presided over that case should be investigated, sanctioned or disbarred. Public outrage and political pressure are not reasons to force a case into trial.  

    The fact that there hasn't been a civil suit against Zimmerman speaks volumes.  The federal case nonsense was a complete waste of time.

    I disagree... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 10:21:22 AM EST
    a unarmed teenager's body in the street and Zim's smoking gun warrants a criminal trial...just because reasonable doubt existed doesn't mean there was no grounds for a criminal trial.  The state failed to prove the charges beyond the reasonable doubt, he was acquitted, that's how our system works.

    Parent
    Not every homicide deserves a trial (none / 0) (#21)
    by McBain on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 11:33:26 AM EST
    There wasn't any evidence Zimmerman broke the law. The evidence either pointed to self defense or that no one would be able to prove it wasn't self defense.

    Parent
    However (none / 0) (#22)
    by FlJoe on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 12:09:56 PM EST
    there was evidence that Zimmerman acted in a reckless manner by ignoring the dispatcher.
    that no one would be able to prove it wasn't self defense.
    It's very hard to prove a negative, so another fool with a gun walks free....

    Parent
    Not true (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by McBain on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 01:57:11 PM EST
    This is one of the many myths that lives on.  The dispatcher never told GZ to stay in his car or not to follow Martin. This was proven in court.

    There's nothing reckless about trying to help the police locate someone you think might be up to no good.  

    Parent

    As far as I know (none / 0) (#25)
    by FlJoe on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 02:07:33 PM EST
    Neighborhood watch are specifically told NOT to engage in anyway with possible suspects. There is a word for civilians trying to do police work and it starts with a V, maybe he was not "told" to stay put, but it seems like he was "advised" to do so. In my book vigilantism is reckless behavior in all but the most dire circumstances.

    Parent
    no evidence (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by CityLife on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 06:34:23 PM EST
    There is no evidence Zimmerman "engaged" Martin. Zimmerman was in his own neighborhood and it is obvious he went to look to see if Martin was exiting by the back gate. 4 minutes elapsed and Martin returned and punched Zimmerman. Even the girl that he was talking to thinks Martin threw the first punch. The media did a horrible job with this case.  I honestly don't understand why Matt Gutman still has a job after tweeting this: "Sanford FL neighborhood watch captain who shot 17 yr old teen bc he was black, wore hoodie walking slowly, likely not 2 be arrested.#Trayvon"

    Parent
    It's funny how no one wanted to touch (none / 0) (#38)
    by McBain on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 08:04:36 PM EST
    Rachael Jeantel's comment that TM probably threw the first punch. It didn't fit the narrative so it was ignored.  I remember when Mark Lamont Hill asked her that question and when she said TM probably threw the fist punch he paused then changed the subject.  If ever a follow up question was needed, that was the time.

    Parent
    It's also funny how ... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Yman on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 09:00:51 PM EST
    ... people chose to disbelieve every other part of her actual testimony about what she actually heard that night and label her a liar suddenly think this piece of speculation is credible.  Not to mention how they choose to ignore the reason she gives as to why she thinks he threw the first punch.

    I guess this piece of speculation fit their narrative, but reason for her speculation and her actual testimony didn't.

    Parent

    I didn't think she was credible (none / 0) (#40)
    by McBain on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 09:30:08 PM EST
    If I was on the jury I wouldn't have believed anything she said.  I think Jeralyn wrote a pretty good analysis of her time on the stand.

    The problem the prosecution had, and why she should have never been called as a witness, was even if she was telling the truth, her testimony didn't hurt GZ. In some ways, it helped him.

    What did she say was the reason TM threw the first punch?  In the interview I saw, she didn't clarify that.

    Parent

    Not surprising (none / 0) (#41)
    by Yman on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 09:49:55 PM EST
    After all, her actual testimony didn't "fit the narrative".

    Not sure why you would believe it was so important ask follow up questions to her entirely speculative "first punch" interview answer if you didn't believe anything she said.

    Parent

    I wanted to see if you were just making it up (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by McBain on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 10:06:19 PM EST
    I got my answer

    Parent
    "Making it up" - heh (none / 0) (#49)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 06:15:33 AM EST
    The only answer you "got" was the one you were imagining in your own mind.

    If you really want an "answer", Google is your friend.  As I said, not sure why some would be so desirous of an answer from someone they've repeatedly deemed as entirely incredible.

    Not really ... I got my answer.

    Parent

    Yep they miss this part (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 09:09:14 AM EST
    She went on to describe how she believed that Trayvon throwing the first punch was likely caused by Zimmerman attempting to grab and detain Martin.
    The jury saw the possibility of GZ "fearing for his life" in the "last few seconds" and that was enough to cast a reasonable doubt on his guilt, I understand that, the prosecution could not prove that he wasn't. However many people discount the possibility that at some point Trayvon was in fear for his. I would ask for someone to prove that he wasn't. I don't think any one can. It is amazing to me that some can believe that Zimmerman was absolutely justified in killing TM out of fear while totally dismissing the possibility that Trayvon was acting in his own defense. The reasonable doubt standards applied to GZ are ignored by all of you who have tried and convicted Trayvon in your own mind.

    Parent
    Maybe because...? (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 10:57:44 AM EST
    As you point out, TM was not on trial?  Maybe because, as such, legally, he has no presumption of innocence and his state of mind has no bearing on the case?  Maybe because what RJ "felt" happened is not evidence?  Maybe because, had TM lived, he possibly could've faced charges for assault? Maybe because believing there was no evidence to contradict Zimmerman's account (and thereby agreeing the verdict was correct) is NOT the same thing as advocating that he was, as you say, "absolutely justified?"

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#54)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 11:37:22 AM EST
    because TM was not on trial.
    Maybe because believing there was no evidence to contradict Zimmerman's account (and thereby agreeing the verdict was correct) is NOT the same thing as advocating that he was, as you say, "absolutely justified?"
    and it is also not the same as proving that TM was a felon.

    Parent
    Who is trying to PROVE that? (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 01:03:42 PM EST
    Zimmerman's account (and the evidence is consistent with) the fact that, at the time of the shooting, TM was physically assaulting GZ. That COULD have been a felony - or a misdemeanor.  The FACT is, at the time of his death, TM was probably engaging in a crime.  The issues for the jury were: 1) Was GZ in fear for his life. Douch that he felt his only course of action was to kill, 3) Was this fear reasonable? 3) Could GZ retreat from this danger (since SYG was not invoked)? and 4) Did GZ put himself in such a position that he couldn't claim self-defense?

    TM's state of mind is irrelevant.

    Parent

    The person to whom he was responding ... (none / 0) (#59)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 01:21:19 PM EST
    ... (and others) were making that claim, among other things.

    Zimmerman's account (and the evidence is consistent with) the fact that, at the time of the shooting, TM was physically assaulting GZ. That COULD have been a felony - or a misdemeanor.

    Or, ... neither.

    The FACT is, at the time of his death, TM was probably engaging in a crime.

    Not a "fact", although it's funny how the standard to what is a "fact" suddenly drops to one's interpretation of "probably".

    Parent

    Yes. FACTS (none / 0) (#62)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 02:10:19 PM EST
    It is a FACT that GZ suffered defensive injuries.  It is a FACT that TM was on top of GZ and hitting him. Since TM did not live, it is not a fact that he would have been charged with assault, but there's a very good chance he would have, hence the word "probably". Beating someone up IS a chargeable offense aka a crime. And since the jury has ruled, then yes, all that evidence are now THE FACTS.

    Parent
    Wrong, wrong, wrong (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 06:50:27 PM EST
     
    And since the jury has ruled, then yes, all that evidence are now THE FACTS.
    crimnal juries are not finders of fact. They view evidence as presented and decide if the prosecution has proven their case. A jury verdict cannot certify "all that evidence" as fact. It is possible for a jury to believe none of the defense's case  and come back NG if the prosecution fails to make the case.

    Parent
    Oh, I guess I missed the part ... (none / 0) (#63)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 02:35:14 PM EST
    ... where the jury ruled that all of those claims were "facts", as opposed to simply not having enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict GZ of the offense with which he was charged.  Could you provide a link?

    That's the funny thing about how subjective the "probably" or "very good chance" (in an alternate reality) standards are, and how quickly the "presumed innocent" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" standards of the real world become forgotten when imagining what "probably" would have happened if ...

    BTW - "Beating up someone" is not a chargeable offense.  "Assault", "battery", etc. are criminal offenses, to which there are several defenses, such as self defense (even pre-emptive use of force).  Thought you would have known that.

    Parent

    Yman is not a lawyer (none / 0) (#67)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 05:57:21 PM EST
    unlike yourself, jb

    maybe you can tell

    Parent

    Seriously? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 07:39:37 PM EST
    Uh, yes ... in fact, I am a lawyer.

    Unlike yourself.

    Parent

    then i wonder why jb (none / 0) (#74)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 07:50:06 PM EST
    has to keep explaining the most basic points & principles of our US legal system to you

    Parent
    He doesn't (none / 0) (#75)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 07:52:05 PM EST
    Particularly when he gets it wrong.

    But nice try at saving yourself from yet another embarrassing claim.

    Parent

    she (none / 0) (#76)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 07:59:15 PM EST
    & yes, she does have to keep spelling it out for you - the evidence (so to speak) is right here in this thread

    Parent
    Wow - YOU think so? (none / 0) (#77)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 08:02:33 PM EST
    Well now I'm upset.

    (snicker)

    Parent

    You forgot the part (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by IrishGerard on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 11:52:14 AM EST
    where trayvon comes at zimmerman and circles his car with 'his hand in his waistband'; an obviously threatening manner. Whoops! That's not consistent with trayvon being 'in fear', scared or intimidated by zimmerman'. quite the contrary. Check one

     Rachel Jenteal was so afraid that trayvon was being accosted/ detained by zimmerman that she immediately called the Police and when she found out she was the last one to talk to trayvon alive she came forward to tell her story to Sanford Police......Oh Wait! She NEVER came forward or told the police or told ANYONE what happened that night until Crump caught up to her Three weeks later. check two

     Yeah let's put someone in prison for 15-30 years based on her testimony that she thought she heard a Lil' Get Off' or "wet grass'. Geezus.

    Jeantel also puts Trayvon 'right by his fathers house, a couple houses away' so I'm sure you can explain how he was so scared of zimmerman that he ended up back at the 'T' to confront him on HIS pathway back to HIS vehicle. Jeantel was an excellent witness alright but not for the prosecution.

     go ahead and keep arguing against facts, logic and law to support the assailant, Trayvon. you're winning!

    Parent

    Or the other part (none / 0) (#56)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 12:23:03 PM EST
    You forgot the part where trayvon comes at zimmerman and circles his car with 'his hand in his waistband'; an obviously threatening manner. Whoops! That's not consistent with trayvon being 'in fear', scared or intimidated by zimmerman'. quite the contrary. Check one

    Well, that does sound pretty scary.  So "threatening", in fact, that it's probably something you would mention to a police dispatcher if you were on the phone describing someone who's behavior you found suspicious, as opposed to say, ... only after-the-fact.

    Uncheck.

    Jeantel also puts Trayvon 'right by his fathers house, a couple houses away' so I'm sure you can explain how he was so scared of zimmerman that he ended up back at the 'T' to confront him on HIS pathway back to HIS vehicle.

    "Right by his father's house" is relative, and even the intersection where the shooting occurred could easily be described as "right by his father's house", particularly in the context of a much longer walk to the 7-11.  I don't recall the latest detail of "a couple houses away", but even if this is a true quote (as opposed to yet another exaggeration), you'd have to assume she meant it in the literal sense ("two") as opposed to the common use of the term to describe an indefinite, small number.  Do you have a link for that "quote" from her testimony?

    Parent

    For phuk sake (none / 0) (#60)
    by IrishGerard on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 01:24:22 PM EST
    Please tell me you are aware that was part of zimmerman's NEN call?

    Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male
    Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
    Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
    Dispatcher: Late teens ok
    zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

    again, check one

    in the real world 'a couple of houses away' means a couple houses away.(video @ 18:20) nice try, though.
    Again, check two

    Now that you've been schooled you will be better equipped to opine on the zimmerman case.

    class dismissed

    Parent

    If you think that's "schooled" ... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 01:38:42 PM EST
    ... I hope there's a summer session for you.

    You forgot the part where trayvon comes at zimmerman and circles his car with 'his hand in his waistband'; an obviously threatening manner. Whoops!

    Walking with your hand in your waistband is not threatening.  I do it all the time.  Neither is walking past someone.  But I would be interested to hear where he told the dispatcher that TM "circled his car", as you claimed previously.  Because that little bit of added detail would be suspicious and something you would mention to a dispatcher.


    in the real world 'a couple of houses away' means a couple houses away.(video @ 18:20) nice try, though.
    Again, check two

    Does it, now?  What were the words she said right after "right by his father's house" and immediately before "a couple houses away"? - because you ommitted them from your "quote".  And in the "real world", a "couple" means two OR an indefinitely small number, as in "You'll need a couple more years of schooling before you're ready to "school" anyone."

    Parent

    hilarious (none / 0) (#65)
    by IrishGerard on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 03:21:45 PM EST
    You're the king on strawman arguments. when you get schooled then you move the goalposts. playing games with semantics isnt going to cut it. You must think people posting here are stupid. A couple houses away means two or three not 100 yards from his fathers house at the T where he ended up confronting zimmerman He was home and he went back for zimmerman. You loose!~

    How trayvon left zimmermans car is irrelevant. what's germane is that trayvon came at zimmerman while he was in his car on the phone to dispatch. That negates any notion that trayvon was scared or intimidated by zimmerman. Also,when you walk up on someone you know is eyeballing you and you have your hand in your waistband, you are not only intimating that you have a weapon but you are also threatening force. It also makes trayvon the first aggressor.

     I understand you might be able to walk around your lilly white suburb with your hand in your waistband (sounds kinda strange) but since you have no concept of crime or violence let me give you some advice; If you're ever in a bad neighborhood don't ever walk-up on someone with your hand in your waistband.

     you're welcome!

    lunch time in cali....

    Parent

    No answers, huh? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Yman on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 03:36:24 PM EST
    Glad we dispensed with the silly "circled the car" fairy tale.  And no answer for what the part of the "quote" you omitted between "right by his father's house" and "a couple houses away"?.  Well, some progress, at least.  Now if only we could get you to read simple definitions.

    Hope you enjoy that school lunch!  Happy to provide another anytime you're hungry ...

    Parent

    Considering the way many boys... (none / 0) (#89)
    by unitron on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:00:41 PM EST
    ...and young men wear their pants these days, that "hand in his waistband" might have been nothing more than dealing with the effects of gravity and (apparently) the lack of a belt.

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#58)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 01:14:54 PM EST
    you were there and witnessed this "obviously threatening manner" displayed by Trayvon. Judging by the call to dispatch this encounter seemed to be a few seconds of a stare off between two mutually suspicious individuals. Trayvon takes off running shortly after this so called threatening behavior takes place, quite the opposite of fearlessness there. Obviously GZ did not feel that threatened as he immediately followed. Who really knows what happened after that, maybe what started as a macho stare down, escalated into a situation where both parties had ramped up fear levels, not to mention testosterone levels.

    Look I am not trying to relitigate the case against GZ, especially with testimony of RJ. I am just trying to point out that there are some alternative narratives besides the obviously self-serving one put forth by Zimmerman's defense team.

    Go ahead and take GZ's account as gospel, I would prefer to take them with a huge grain of salt. Other then Zimmerman's "accounts", which were not subjected to cross, there is no evidence that TM initiated the final fatal encounter. Sure GZ had some injuries, but have you never heard of someone starting a fight and getting there ass handed to them?

    Parent

    I don't take GZ's account as gospel (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by McBain on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 06:41:53 PM EST
    Although he did pass two lie detector tests and gave two compelling police interviews, he could have exaggerated some things, been wrong about others, maybe even lied.  What I chose to do was to look at the evidence.

    GZ called the police before the shooting and requested their presence (this is the most ignored fact)
    TM had plenty of time to avoid a confrontation with GZ.
    GZ had injuries consistent with a violent assault.
    Witness John Good saw TM on top of GZ and believed he was throwing punches while GZ was screaming.
    GZ didn't just walk up to TM and pull the trigger. He shot after screaming for help for over 30 seconds.

    At some point, common sense needs to be applied.  GZ wasn't a vigilante. He was acting in self defense.  

    Parent

    I have never disputed (none / 0) (#81)
    by FlJoe on Fri Feb 27, 2015 at 10:51:08 AM EST
    that there was an altercation with GZ get by far the worst of it. I question how and why the final fatal physical encounter started. There was absolutely no evidence showing that TM jumped out of the bushes and launched an unprovoked attack. I just find it hard to wrap my head around the idea that GZ went from a brave neighborhood watchman to a seemingly lost (looking for street signs?) and almost helpless victim of a smaller younger aggressor.

    Sure

    TM had plenty of time to avoid a confrontation with GZ
    just as GZ had plenty of time to wait for the, I would assign equal blame on that point.

    Zimmerman's words and actions DO show that he considered Trayvon some kind of "suspect", some kind of thug that "always gets away". By his getting out of the truck and following TM , GZ, at least in his own mind, was trying to prevent a crime(dangerous but often commendable),track a suspect (dangerous and often foolish), or detain a suspect (very dangerous and possibly illegal)all of which I consider vigilante like actions.

    The bottom line is GZ embarked on a course of action that put himself in a situation that he was mentally and physically unable to handle. I sincerely believe that GZ is a weak and troubled person who gains his courage by carrying a firearm. Yes, after all is said and done, GZ was probably in fear for his life, pathetically un able do defend himself against a 158 pound teenager with out resorting to a gun. May God save us all from fools with guns.

    Parent

    Martin could have been acting in self defense... (none / 0) (#90)
    by unitron on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:02:53 PM EST
    ...and Zimmerman could still have been justified in the use of force, depending on the circumstances.

    Florida 776 has a lot of "if"s and "unless"s.

    Parent

    Yes, but it would have been harder to sell that (none / 0) (#91)
    by McBain on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:35:28 PM EST
    to the jury.  Maybe they could have focused on the screaming.

    Had the media done a more honest job with the screaming and injuries, I don't think public perception would have been as anti Zimmerman as it was.

    Parent

    That's even more ridiculous (none / 0) (#26)
    by McBain on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 02:19:48 PM EST
    If he was a vigilante who wanted to engage TM, he wouldn't have called the police in the first place.  All evidence points toward GZ wanting the police to handle the situation.  

    If you have a problem with civilians carrying guns, I can respect that opinion.  But don't ignore the facts of this case.  GZ's lawyers put the dispatcher on the witness stand and got him to admit GZ did nothing wrong by getting out of his car.  

    Parent

    Whatever (none / 0) (#27)
    by FlJoe on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 02:26:28 PM EST
    he was a fool with a gun whose actions caused the death of an innocent teenager.  Even if he was legitimately  acting as a neighborhood watchmen, as he claims, he still broke the rules, I call that reckless.

    Parent
    We're never going to agree on this (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by McBain on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 02:52:42 PM EST
    but you keep ignoring the facts.  The evidence points toward TM committing a violent felony on GZ. On that night, TM was the bad guy.  What difference does it make that he was a teenager? He was clearly capable of causing great bodily harm.  

    Is there a rule against neighborhood watchmen carrying guns?  GZ wasn't on duty that night, so it doesn't really matter. I don't see any rule that he broke.  

    Parent

    Those aren't "facts" (none / 0) (#29)
    by Yman on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 03:01:03 PM EST
    you keep ignoring the facts.  The evidence points toward TM committing a violent felony on GZ. On that night, TM was the bad guy.

    Those are your own conclusions/opinions, based on what you believe the evidence "points toward".

    Parent

    You can ignore everything that was presented (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by McBain on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 03:17:35 PM EST
    at the trial if you want. You can bury your head in the sand.  You have the right to be ignorant.

    GZ had injuries that were consistent with an assault. The only eye witness with a good view saw TM on top of GZ and believed he was punching him.  That's evidence pointing towards TM committing a felony, not my opinion.  

    Parent

    Wow - really? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Yman on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 03:32:19 PM EST
    Thanks for your permission to do something I wasn't doing, but your conclusions still aren't facts.

    Parent
    You are assuming (none / 0) (#32)
    by FlJoe on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 04:08:35 PM EST
    facts not in evidence. I will agree the facts were mostly inconclusive, that combined with an "unenthusiastic" prosecution made the not-guilty verdict understandable..
    The evidence points toward TM committing a violent felony on GZ. On that night, TM was the bad guy.
    This sounds exactly like Zimmerman's story, funny I don't remember his testimony.

    There was undoubtedly a physical confrontation that night, but the who, what and why of it is unknown. Only two people really know what happened and one of them is dead. It is possible your scenario of TM is the aggressor, but it is just as possible GZ initiated the conflict and Trayvon was just standing his ground. I lean towards the latter seeing that GZ started the whole chain of events.

    Parent

    Speaking of facts not in evidence.... (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 05:03:35 PM EST
    'unenthusiastic prosecution' (none / 0) (#46)
    by IrishGerard on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 04:34:42 AM EST
    If by unenthusiastic you mean putting someone you know to be innocent on trial for murder. Or attempting to admit expert testimony that the defendant wasn't the one screaming for help knowing full well that it was the defendant. Or risking your Law licence to conceal exculpatory evidence from the defense/ court, then sure. But I would prefer to call this prosecution mafia-esque - cunning, corrupt and criminal

    Parent
    I Am Having A Good Laugh (none / 0) (#69)
    by RickyJim on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 06:43:23 PM EST
    at this nostalgia for trivia about a dead case.  Well, I didn't get over debating OJ for several years after.  Some of you seem to want to prove TM guilty of assault with intent to kill or something like that.  Why?  

    For me, Zimmerman/Martin was another poster child for the weakness of American criminal justice.  The case was brought, without any judicial review of the worthiness of the evidence, by an elected prosecutor who had control of the police investigation and was in cahoots with an outside lawyer that had a financial interest in the outcome.  Then the defense spent a year and a half suing the prosecution to get a hold of evidence that they had in their possession.  Then they had a trial which at least one juror stated afterwards was a waste of time.  All of these things don't happen in the rest of the world.  

    Parent

    But nothing will happen to them (none / 0) (#70)
    by McBain on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 06:44:39 PM EST
    The prosecution, the judge, Crump and co. will all get off scott free. They knew they could pretty much do anything they wanted and no one would hold them accountable.  

    Parent
    Unenthusiastic? (none / 0) (#88)
    by unitron on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 06:55:35 PM EST
    Did you miss the prosecution's opening where they cursed loudly at the jury?

    Now, granted, there wasn't much to their case other than enthusiasm, but, referring back to the saying about pounding either the law or the facts, or, if neither are on your side, the table, there wasn't a table in that courthouse that wasn't in mortal danger.

    Parent

    So What is the Alternative? (none / 0) (#51)
    by RickyJim on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 09:36:22 AM EST
    1. Convict Zimmerman for being a reckless jerk for getting out of the car and trying to spot Martin?
    2. Require that a self defense claimant prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it really was self defense?
    3. Ban civilians from owning hand guns unless they can prove a need, like being a licensed security guard?


    Parent
    Alas (none / 0) (#52)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    I see no realistic alternative at this time. Gun control has become the third rail of American politics. All I know there are too many guns and too many fools and no good way to keep them separated.

    As to your specific questions;

    1. How I wish there was a "fool with a gun law", reckless endangerment ?
    2. It seems that right now the burden is proof is on the prosecution to show that the defendant was not in "fear for their lives". In other words the uphill task of proving a negative, especially to the slippery concept of "state of mind". Definitely getting rid of the absurd SYG laws would help and maybe better jury instructions. Maybe better tactics by prosecutors to counter self D claims
    3. That would be a reasonable goal to move towards, dream on.


    Parent
    This one did imo... (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 12:50:30 PM EST
    If the victim was in the process of breaking into the accused's house, that would be a different story.

    I'd hope and expect every case with circumstances such as this one would result in a criminal trial...stand your ground state or no stand your ground state.

    Parent

    Unsurprising. (none / 0) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 03:23:26 PM EST


    Couldn't agree more (none / 0) (#2)
    by Yman on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 03:32:43 PM EST
    Not necessarily for the same reason(s).

    Parent
    My reasons are related to the law, (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 03:48:25 PM EST
    summed up pretty well in J's post.

    Are yours different?

    Parent

    Not sure what ... (none / 0) (#5)
    by Yman on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 06:12:49 PM EST
    ... "related to the law" means, but mine have to do with the intent difficulty in establishing intent in these kinds of cases, particularly when you have only one party's version of the events.

    Parent
    The only version of events that mattered (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by McBain on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 07:05:30 PM EST
    was that of the evidence.  Even if we somehow could hear Martin's version, why would you assume he's telling the truth?  Did you assume Zimmerman was telling the truth or did you look at the evidence?

    Parent
    I looked at the evidence (none / 0) (#9)
    by Yman on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 08:03:46 PM EST
    But then again, hearing only one side of the events can make it difficult.

    Parent
    reasons "related to the law" (none / 0) (#6)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 06:40:14 PM EST
    just a guess, but i think SUO may be referring to the Department of Justice's process of finding no reason to bring civil rights charges against George Zimmerman regardless of your own or anyone else's personal preferences in the matter

    Parent
    You think so? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Yman on Tue Feb 24, 2015 at 08:04:28 PM EST
    wow

    Parent
    Grand jury involved? (none / 0) (#12)
    by unitron on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 08:13:47 AM EST
    Was there a federal grand jury that they ran this past or did they just investigate and decide they didn't even have enough to try that?

    Reason I ask is I saw where someone is convinced a federal grand jury ruled against Zimmerman and it's being covered up or something.

    No (none / 0) (#13)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 09:01:18 AM EST
    Nov 12, 2014 (none / 0) (#14)
    by RickyJim on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 09:27:49 AM EST
    Apparently Frank Taaffe testified in front of a Federal Grand Jury, investigating the Zimmerman case, on that date

    Parent
    My bad (none / 0) (#15)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 10:09:29 AM EST
    But even the DOJ's timeline doesn't mention that it empaneled a grand jury to investigate, but maybe somewhere there was sloppy reporting.

    Parent
    Mind you, (none / 0) (#16)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 10:13:00 AM EST
    You are clearly right about a grand jury, but it seems weird that the DOJ press release didn't mention it.

    Parent
    And weirder still (none / 0) (#18)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 10:24:21 AM EST
    That we have heard of no resolution from this grand jury. But the DOJ has already proclaimed they will not bring charges and their investigation is over.

    Parent
    I have no desire (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Feb 27, 2015 at 11:00:39 AM EST
    to wade into this thread beyond saying that on the limited question of why so little has been heard about any GJ proceeding, look to rule 6 (e)of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.

    Parent
    psychological phenomenon of projection (none / 0) (#33)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 04:10:09 PM EST
    throughout this case & its aftermath (the trial, the acquittal, the DOJ investigation, & now this decision by the DOJ), it has been fascinating & sobering to observe the frustrated, fulminating vigilantism of those who accuse GZ of being a vigilante

    This from (none / 0) (#35)
    by FlJoe on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 05:09:19 PM EST
    people who accuse Trayvon of being a violent felonious thug, please. I don't know why people have to so stridently defend the honor of GZ who at best fkd up and at worst got away with murder. He had an excellent defense at his trial, he deserves none in the court of public opinion.

    Ps; I thought the fed case was BS from the start.
    Pps; easy on the alliteration next time, I'm starting to st,st,stutter.

    Parent

    are you citing anyone in particular (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 05:41:56 PM EST
    as having accused TM of being "a violent felonious thug"?

    i assume that this accusation has been made - if so, it represents the same problem as the one involved in, as you say, stridently defending the honor of GZ & in, as i say, accusing GZ of being a vigilante

    all three characterizations (TM as a thug, GZ as a hero, GZ as a vigilante) are personal opinions that have no place in & no bearing on the legal process of determining a defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt

    & please note that in our system, the defendant's guilt must be determined; it is never assumed - that's what makes our system different from others around the world

    Parent

    I understand (none / 0) (#43)
    by FlJoe on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 10:58:32 PM EST
    the legal system has decided an I accept that. The state did not prove the case period. No I can not cite one person with that particular statement, just paraphrasing what I have heard from GZ apologists over the years. Some of them seem to think the fact that he was acquitted  some how proves that Trayvon was guilty of something. That ticks me of more then any thing. As you rightly say;
     
    in our system, the defendant's guilt must be determined; it is never assumed
    Trayvon never had his day in court yet plenty of people are "assuming" his guilt.

    Of course I don't think my opinion or any non-expert opinion should carry any weight in court, but in my heart and mind I am convinced that the actions of GZ contributed to the death of Trayvon, to what degree I can only guess. What I am 100% sure of was Zimmerman was a fool with a gun that night. If their only were a law.......


    Parent

    well, yes (none / 0) (#44)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Feb 25, 2015 at 11:45:06 PM EST
    I am convinced that the actions of GZ contributed to the death of Trayvon

    Zimmerman shot him dead - that has never been in dispute

    tragic

    Parent

    Trayvon did indeed commit (none / 0) (#45)
    by IrishGerard on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 04:30:30 AM EST
    a felonious assault. Photographic evidence of zimmerman's injuries (he had no offensive injuries) are proof that he was assaulted. Had the Police arrived prior to zimmerman shooting trayvon he (TM) would have been booked for aggravated assault/ battery - a felony. If you don't understand that then that's on you.

    Despite the local authorities belief that zimmerman had a clear cut case of self-defense he was put on trail and subsequently acquitted, yet the trayvon apologists seem to think the not guilty verdict means nothing. That ticks me off.

    In order for zimmerman to be acquitted the jury had to believe that zimmerman acted in self defense.They had to believe the shooting was justified. They had to believe that trayvon was the aggressor. Not sure why this is soooooo difficult to comprehend? zimmerman was exonerated by the not guilty verdict the same way he was exonerated by the local prosecutor's decesion to not charge him; Justifiable Use of Deadly Force.

    snip -  "So even though it was he [Zimmerman] who had gotten out of his car, followed Trayvon Martin, that didn't matter in the deliberations?" Cooper asked B37. "What mattered was those final seconds, minutes when there was an altercation and whether or not... George Zimmerman felt his life was in danger?"     "Well, that's how we read the law," she said. "That's how we got to the point of everyone believing not guilty."

    You should have read some of Ms.Merritt's analysis of the case then you might have a better understanding of the evidence

    Parent

    So (none / 0) (#48)
    by FlJoe on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 06:11:58 AM EST
    You have tried in convicted Trayvon in your own mind. You trumpet on about fair trials etc., yet you unequviocally judge Trayvon guilty of a crime. There was no trial for Trayvon, your sense of judgement fails right there.

    Parent
    If Martin was acting in self-defense... (none / 0) (#87)
    by unitron on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 06:53:34 PM EST
    ...then he was not committing a felony, or even a misdemeanor.

    It is possible for both parties to have acted in self defense.

    This is apparently not very widely known or understood.

    Legally, Zimmerman could have been the initial aggressor, and still, under certain circumstances, claim self defense.

    Parent

    There's not a shred of evidence (none / 0) (#92)
    by IrishGerard on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 09:41:26 PM EST
    that trayvon was acting in self defense. If you actually watched the trial you would know that the prosecution argued for the inclusion of the Use of Force by Aggressor statute (.041) based on the premise that zimmerman provoked trayvon. The Judge ruled in favor the the Defense that there was no evidence that zimmerman provoked trayvons violence and the statute was not included in jury instructions.

    It boggles my mind how many people are lost on the basic construct of the case especially here on this blog where an unparalleled comprehensive analysis was provided. The argument for the aggressor statute should have been an indication to anyone who was paying attention that there was no case against george zimmerman in the first place.

    Parent

    "There's not a shred of evidence that trayvon (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:59:59 AM EST
    was acting in self defense."

    For many people, the pictures of TM when he was younger and the pics of GZ in that orange shirt were evidence TM was the victim.  Most people base their opinions on emotion and rumor more so than facts and common sense.

    I always go back to the first thing we know about this entire situation.... GZ called the police to get them to handle the situation.  He wasn't looking for a fight or a confrontation. He wanted the police to handle it.  This important fact never sunk in with the masses.

    Parent

    Do tell? (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:41:29 AM EST
    For many people, the pictures of TM when he was younger and the pics of GZ in that orange shirt were evidence TM was the victim.  Most people base their opinions on emotion and rumor more so than facts and common sense.

    Who are those straw/imaginary people and how are you able to read there minds?  It's certainly not anyone here.

    I always go back to the first thing we know about this entire situation.... GZ called the police to get them to handle the situation.  He wasn't looking for a fight or a confrontation. He wanted the police to handle it.  This important fact never sunk in with the masses.

    Everyone, repeat - everyone - knows he called the police NEN.  It was all of the decisions after that where the problem arose.

    Parent

    It wouldn't surprise me if a few people in here (none / 0) (#95)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 02:13:59 PM EST
    let emotion get the better of them.  Certainly, most of the protesters did.

    "Everyone, repeat - everyone - knows he called the police NEN."

    but it didn't sink it or was ignored.  Even the prosecution was guilty of this.  They didn't charge GZ with making bad decisions, they charged him with murder.  How many murderers are going to call the police and wait just before they arrive to shoot someone?  

    Parent

    IOW - No one here (none / 0) (#96)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 04:00:42 PM EST
    ... did, as far as you know.  If only you were as concerned about specious claims and speculation.

    "Everyone, repeat - everyone - knows he called the police NEN."

     but it didn't sink it or was ignored.  Even the prosecution was guilty of this.  They didn't charge GZ with making bad decisions, they charged him with murder.  How many murderers are going to call the police and wait just before they arrive to shoot someone?  

    Of course they know he called the NEN, but this is not proof he didn't commit murder as charged.  Claiming they didn't know or it "didn't sink in" is just silly.  Just because he called the NEN number proves nothing in terms of whether he was justified in using deadly force.

    Parent

    It shows a lack of common sense (none / 0) (#98)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 05:27:29 PM EST
    Remind me what the point of all this is? Are you saying GZ murdered TM or that no one can prove he didn't?  Or something else? It seems like you're just debating for the sake of debating.

    My point is people made up their minds early on based on slanted media reporting and once the facts starting to come in, they ignored them.  Those with financial incentives, doubled down.  

    Parent

    My point is ... (none / 0) (#101)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 06:42:48 PM EST
    ... your claims are nothing more than specious speculation.  I have no idea whether you had a financial incentive or not.

    Parent
    If (none / 0) (#97)
    by FlJoe on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 04:49:59 PM EST
    He wasn't looking for a fight or a confrontation. He wanted the police to handle it.
    Then why did he get out and follow TM? His actions during and shortly after he called the police absolutely proves he was unwilling to wait for the police to handle it, as the dispatcher "suggested".

    GZ's words and actions during and shortly after the call to dispatch shows he was doing anything but avoiding a fight or confrontation. After that who knows?

    He got out of the truck that night for a reason and I am sure it was not to take a stroll in the rain. He  was by his own words following TM. By his own words he considered TM a suspect. He was taking matters into his hands to some degree for some period of time.

    Your whole "he called the police equals no culpability" argument sure slaps down a huge strawman there, I know of nobody who has asserted that GZ got out of that truck with any intentions of breaking the law, to the contrary the evidence points to him believing he was helping to uphold the law. Of course he called the cops, he was intending to fight crime, not commit it.

    Parent

    I think he was tired of all the break ins in his (none / 0) (#99)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 05:34:44 PM EST
    complex and wanted to help the police catch a possible burglar.  His story was he got out of the truck to look at the street sign so he could give the dispatcher the correct address.  Is that true? I don't know but I think it's more likely to be true than he was planning a murder. I also think it's more likely than he was planning on any kind of physical confrontation with TM.  


    Parent
    Still with the (none / 0) (#100)
    by FlJoe on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 06:06:08 PM EST
    strawman, nobody thinks that CZ intended to commit murder.  
    His story was he got out of the truck to look at the street sign so he could give the dispatcher the correct address.  Is that true?
    Lets see, after living in and "patrolling" a three street complex for 2-3 years he still didn't know his way around. That sounds way less likely then him getting out to somehow keep tabs on TM. I don't think GZ was planning anything, he was just acting out his cop wannabe fantasy. Does an unarmed TM  launching an unprovoked attack on a heavier GZ make more sense then an armed GZ somehow trying to apprehend TM? All we have about about the instant the first punch was thrown is the words of GZ. It's not like he had any reason to lie or anything.

    Parent
    "nobody thinks that GZ intended to commit (none / 0) (#102)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 06:46:55 PM EST
    murder" Not true.  There were many people who wanted GZ charged with first degree murder. I never said that was your argument.  Enough with the strawman BS.

    " Does an unarmed TM  launching an unprovoked attack on a heavier GZ make more sense then an armed GZ somehow trying to apprehend TM?"

    Yes. It's especially more likely if TM was impaired or up to no good as GZ said to the dispatcher.

    "he was just acting out his cop wannabe fantasy."  Mark O'Mara did a pretty good job showing GZ wasn't a cop wannabe.  You're just repeating part of the anti-Zimmerman narrative. Here's more of that narrative...

    GZ was a racist
    TM was buying candy for his brother
    GZ was told to stay in his car
    GZ didn't have any injuries
    TM was the one screaming for help (let's examine that one for a minute)...

    I thought this was a huge part of the case....who was doing the screaming.  If it was TM, why was he screaming in the first place? He didn't have any bruises on his body. What was GZ doing to him that would make a tough 17 year old kid scream like that? And if that really was the case, why did GZ wait so long to shoot him? Letting him scream for over 30 seconds doesn't make any sense. But, none of the anti-Zimmerman  narrative makes sense.

       

    Parent

    You disparage (none / 0) (#103)
    by FlJoe on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:20:02 PM EST
    "anti Zimmerman" rhetoric yet you seem to buy into "pro_Zimmerman" rhetoric lock stock and barrel.
     
    Yes. It's especially more likely if TM was impaired or up to no good as GZ said to the dispatcher.
    How does looking at this through Zimmerman's perspective give you an open mind?
    Mark O'Mara did a pretty good job showing GZ wasn't a cop wannabe.
    as any competent attorney, swatting away "opinions" about the state of mind of your client is pretty easy peasy. If they don't testify and have never stated for the record "I am a cop wanabee" thats a hard one to pin on anybody.

     The long relatively constant screaming heard does not seem consistent with someone being repeatedly punched and their head being pounded into the ground, I would expect a more sporadic staccato sound.  Could GZ have had a death grip on Trayvon's hoodie ? Maybe TM was unable to get away and was screaming for help ? I don't know, you don't know. You seem to be willing to dismiss any possibility  that does not show GZ as being a totally innocent, almost helpless, victim of TM's brutal unprovoked attack.

    would make a tough 17 year old kid
    yeah a tough 158 pound teenager, must have looked like Hulk Hogan in Zimmerman's eyes.

    I can see why Zimmerman was acquitted, there was plenty of reasonable doubt. I just do not understand the vigorous defense put up by his defenders in the court of public opinion. He is a  proven looser.

    Parent

    Response to FlJoe (none / 0) (#104)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:40:16 PM EST
    "I can see why Zimmerman was acquitted, there was plenty of reasonable doubt. I just do not understand the vigorous defense put up by his defenders in the court of public opinion. He is a  proven looser."

    As for me... I never saw any evidence he did anything wrong, legally or morally, that night. For others, it might have to do with politics, guns, race or something else.  

    I general, I find the entire case fascinating. More so than any case since O.J. The bad behavior of the media, prosecution and family attorneys was disappointing but made for great theater. I keep hoping for a civil trial but it looks like the Martin family knows they couldn't win. Why is that? The threshold for a civil case is much lower.

    Parent

    "Great theater"? (none / 0) (#105)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 09:10:46 PM EST
    The bad behavior of the media, prosecution and family attorneys was disappointing but made for great theater. I keep hoping for a civil trial but it looks like the Martin family knows they couldn't win. Why is that? The threshold for a civil case is much lower.

    Yes - truly a shame that the family who's teenage son was killed isn't doing their best to satisfy your desire for more "great theater".  OTOH, it does tend to be somewhat difficult to win those kinds of case when there are only two witnesses to key parts of an event and one of them is dead.  Not to mention the fact that a civil suit would be pointless, since Zimmerman has no assets.  Then again, using your logic, Zimmerman didn't file a civil suit either.  Does that mean it "looks like GZ knows he couldn't win?"  After all, the threshold for a civil case is much lower.

    As for me... I never saw any evidence he did anything wrong, legally or morally, that night. For others, it might have to do with politics, guns, race or something else.

    Or, it might have to do with a different view of the evidence.

    Parent

    So, the Martins only care about money? (none / 0) (#106)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 10:10:12 PM EST
    I thought they were after justice? Wouldn't a civil win, even if no $, mean a lot to them?

    Parent
    You seem to want to ... (none / 0) (#107)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 10:16:57 PM EST
    ... say something, but you won't actually say it.  You just ask "questions" hinting at , ... well, something.  Do you think my last name is Martin - why else would you expect me to explain their decision?  Do people ask you to explain GZ's decision not to file a lawsuit against all the people who allegedly wronged him?

    Hey ... this asking "questions" thing is really easy!

    Parent

    BTW - As much as you enjoyed ... (none / 0) (#108)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 10:28:10 PM EST
    ... the "great theater" of the GZ trial, since you keep asking "questions" about why the Martins didn't file a civil suit, there's the obvious issue of them not wanting to spend months or years reliving the death of their teenage son.

    Crazy, huh?

    Parent

    No, I think it's because they would lose (none / 0) (#109)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 10:34:26 PM EST
     

    Parent
    No kidding (none / 0) (#111)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 06:48:47 AM EST
    My point is you have no more idea about why they chose than any random person with an opinion.

    Parent
    Give it (none / 0) (#112)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 07:26:26 AM EST
    up Yman. There is obviously overwhelming evidence that Zimmerman is the true victim here. This brave and kind man has had his life ruined by a veritable lynch mob of race baiting, gun grabbing demagogues who are only in it for the money.

    Parent
    I am (none / 0) (#110)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 05:54:43 AM EST
    glad you think GZ is such a fine upstanding citizen. I am sure you would happy if he married your sister/daughter/dear friend. Since TM's death he has shown total remorse and has dedicated his life to improving his own and others lives.

    . I never saw any evidence he did anything wrong, legally or morally, that night.
    As for me I have yet to see evidence that GZ is a decent human being. Quite the contrary.

    Parent
    I would imagine GZs life is a trainwreck these (none / 0) (#113)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:18:27 AM EST
    days.  But I understand your point.  You think because he's been accused of domestic violence then he must be a bad person, and therefore more likely to have done something wrong that night.  The problem with that is TM also has incidents from his past that suggest he "was up to no good".  

    Also, GZ did some things that suggest he was a decent human being....
    Stood for a homeless man who was beat up by a cop's son.
    Helped out a neighbor who had been the victim of home invasion
    Helped out a family who's SUV had rolled over

    One of the reasons I keep hoping for a civil trial is, I beleive, the rules of evidence admission are different than a criminal trial? More stuff from the past would come in. Maybe TMs tweets about fighting and his "found jewelry" incident would make it in?

     

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    I'm (none / 0) (#114)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:43:02 AM EST
    pretty sure GZ has done plenty of decent things in his life along with some more questionable deeds, haven't we all. To tell the truth I do not hate as much as pity  the man. I do question many of his actions from that fateful night onward. I could write off his "good deeds" as publicity stunts but I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I could write off(not excuse him) the domestic violence issues as the reactions of a troubled man who has had his life turned up side down. However actions such as signing autographs at gun shows comes off as rather disgusting no matter how I try to look at it.

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    If the DOJ actually investigated (none / 0) (#47)
    by IrishGerard on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 04:38:34 AM EST
    what transpired in Sanford FL they would have discovered, with minimal effort, that the only person's civil rights that were violated were George Zimmermans'. I would certainly like to see a copy of this 'comprehensive' investigation. This is a despicable report; insinuating that zimmerman was guilty but they simply didnt have enough evidence for a conviction. What this AGOTUS and his DOJ did to zimmerman is beyond unethical. Conspiring with the State of Florida to have zimmerman prosecuted and holding a wholly merit-less Federal prosecution over the head of a US citizen for the sake of race politics is the most egregious example of a corrupt DOJ.

    We can talk about this case until the cows (none / 0) (#64)
    by Juanita Moreno on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 03:04:28 PM EST
    come home, but most people have already made up their minds and will simply defend their beliefs, regardless of how right or wrong they are.

    Perhaps we'd be better served to keep an open mind in order to better understand what happened and hopefully prevent future tragedies.

    Zimmerman might be a fool who caused this problem by aggressively chasing and perhaps trying to physically detain Trayvon Martin. But following someone you've reported to the police to see where he went is reasonable and legal. It will happen again in other settings and we should communicate how to avoid a repeat Z-TM tragedy.

    Martin may have exacerbated an uncomfortable and perhaps even dangerous situation by deciding to attack Zimmerman to teach him a lesson. Or he may have started out struggling to escape or fighting back, and then just kept pounding Zimmerman when he had the upper hand. If so, Zimmerman's decision to shoot him is a reasonable and legal response. The jury in this case apparently thought so. Since it will likely happen again, we should communicate how to handle it.

    So what can we learn from an event when we're not sure exactly what went down? If we back off our established positions on this tragedy, we can assess the various scenarios presented by people who weren't present that night and think about what to teach those who may find themselves in a similar position in the future.

    Zimmerman may have profiled Martin based on his age, clothes, race or behavior. But the elephant in the room, as the elderly neighbor mentioned referring to local burglaries, is that as long as crime continues, young men who look or act like those earlier criminals will continue to inspire "pattern matching" alarm responses. This natural human tendency is expressed by dysfunctional stereotyping and racism, but the biological basis of this response is sensible, reasonable and likely unchangeable. To deal with this tendency, we need to be honest about where it comes from and why it persists.

    As wrong as it is to teach white children racism, it's also wrong to teach blanket anger and hostility to our youth of color. The vast majority of white people are not racist bigots, and that reality should be reinforced. If Martin made bad decisions that night, and if those decisions were based on a perception of who Zimmerman was (white, gay or even someone profiling him for being black), then his death could have been avoided by his own actions.

    In our family, we teach our children that some people are outright racists, especially if they were taught racism as children, while some people are just responding to what they've seen and heard in their lives (experientially learned bias). In areas where many young black men have committed crimes, there will be people who start perceiving black youth as criminals. Until we can recognize and acknowledge where bias comes from, we can't counteract it.

    No one wants a tragedy like this to occur again, but most liberal sites have hundreds of people posting the old meme of big bad whitey hunting down and murdering a little defenseless Skittles-carrying kid. How does that version of reality help other black youth?

    People love to hate the great white defendant (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by McBain on Thu Feb 26, 2015 at 06:51:02 PM EST
    Even if he's only half white. There's a lot of money to be made hating the great white defendant. Doesn't matter if he's actually guilty or not.

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