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Saturday Open Thread

Congratulations to Kate and William, the Dutchess and Duke of Cambridge, and a warm welcome to the newborn Princess of Cambridge. [More...]

They are such a happy looking couple, here's one more:

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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  • Tesla introduces... (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by desertswine on Sat May 02, 2015 at 02:55:58 PM EST
    The Powerwall.  This could be the beginning of a breakthrough.

    Any bets (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by jtaylorr on Sun May 03, 2015 at 07:26:09 AM EST
    on how long till Elon asks us to start subsidizing these things? So far his businesses have largely followed the (admittedly brilliant) strategy of getting the government to subsidize luxury status items for those who want to project an image of environmental consciousness: solar panels for inefficient single-family homes, luxury electric cars for inefficient single-occupancy commutes. Now I'm sure it will be argued that we all have to subsidize these power packs so the rich can feel morally superior for living in wasteful, costly (to the taxpayer), and infrastructure-intensive single-family McMansions. It's the new trickle-down economics.

    You know how the government could reduce emissions without depending on the mining of massive amounts of rare earth materials in developing countries? Stop subsidizing the most environmentally-unfriendly forms of transportation and housing in the first place!

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 02, 2015 at 10:46:17 PM EST
    $3500 for the 10KHW unit doesn't include installation and the switching unit which flips the "battery's" output to the home while disconnecting from the electric grid. Probably add about another $1000. You can add another $1500 for the DC to AC Inverter.

    A natural or LP gas powered 7KWH geneerator unit is about $4000  installed including all the switching units.

    Parent

    good points. however, the advantage of the (none / 0) (#9)
    by cpinva on Sun May 03, 2015 at 05:31:18 AM EST
    Tesla unit is that it isn't dependent on an (potentially more difficult to acquire) external source of fuel, since it uses sunlight converted to electrical energy. the odds are very good that you'll eventually have to re-fuel any gasoline/LP/natural gas fired unit, this isn't an issue with a solar conversion one. since the primary use is (at first, anyway) for emergency situations, where acquiring a fresh supply of fuel might be iffy, the solar unit, in my opinion anyway, would be the safer route to go, even with the nominal additional upfront investment.

    your mileage may vary.

    Parent

    You really think that a fossil-fuel (none / 0) (#16)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun May 03, 2015 at 07:45:48 AM EST
    generator would be the superior choice?  Given that sunlight is free, and natural or LP gas costs money.............

    Parent
    Tune in, turn on and drop out (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 08:34:50 AM EST
    Not really.

    Sunlight is free but like "free" fish you gotta catch it first.

    The unit does not come with its own power panels. You can add another $5K or so for them but they don't work very well at night.... or when covered by snow or sleet.

    Evidently the basic unit provides power only for a few hours.

    are sufficient to power most homes during peak evening hours.

    So it has to be recharged daily. Or multiple units installed. Which "multiples the price." And since it was designed for a few night time hours I estimate that for 24 hours you'd need 3 units at a cost of around $18,000 installed and that assumes enough "good daytime" weather to recharge.

    That means it can't be depended on for a standby unit in case of bad weather. Think of tornadoes, floods, snow storms, ice storms, etc.

    I ass u me that it has been UL approved. And I assume that partners to provide the solar panels have been qualified as well as the inverter and switching system. And it's gonna have to be installed fairly close to the existing AC distribution panel and meet local codes. Building inspectors and insurance companies get very picky about such things. So understand that some carpenter work may be required.

    Plus, no mention is made of the "memory effect" that rechargeable lithium ion batteries have.

    That's why your iPhone battery went bad and why you paid around $75.00 to have it replaced.

    Like I said, interesting. And being a techie type if I had $10K to spare  I'd get one. But I don't and won't.

    And if I wanted a reliable standby unit for power for days when the grid goes down I'd install a LPG fueled unit.

    Parent

    Unless you have a well on the property (3.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun May 03, 2015 at 08:54:00 AM EST
    you need to get your LP or natural gas from somebody else, and that usually involves paying money for it, in my experience.

    Here's a table of annual sunshine exposure in various American cities.  Even the worst city has more than 50% exposure, and it doesn't seem to be a problem in Germany, for example, which is one of the less sunny places on the European continent compared to say, Italy or Greec.

    As usual for you, you miss the forest for the trees.  Solar technology, unless it is at Star Trek-level efficiency, will never  work for you becaues of your inherent prejudice against it.

    So save the lecture for someone else, next time.

    Parent

    Your lack of knowledge re technical (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 12:05:19 PM EST
    issues continues.

    Yes, you can install enough solar panels to provide enough power when you have extended snow, fog, rain or other situations. The issue then becomes cost and physical space. Plus, for home installations you must consider direction orientation or install automatic tracking equipment and an yard installation. Be sure and consult your codes if you have an homeowner association.

    BTW - An annual 50% average doesn't mean always equal. You could have 10 days in a row with no sun, or any mixture thereof...From your link CO has 136 clear days. That means 229 days aren't. You could have 7 in a row cloudy and the 14 that are clear, etc, etc.

    BTW, you keep on talking about Germany.

    Solar power in Germany consists almost exclusively of photovoltaics (PV) and accounted for an estimated 6.2 to 6.9 percent of the country's net-electricity generation in 2014.[2][3] The country has been the world's top PV installer for several years and still leads in terms of the overall installed capacity, that amounted to 38,555 megawatts (MW) by the end of March 2015, ahead of China, Japan, Italy, and the United States.[4]

    ....new installations of PV systems have declined steadily since the record year of 2011 and continued to do so throughout 2014. It's estimated that about half of the country's jobs have been lost in the solar sector in recent years. While proponents from the PV industry blame the lack of governmental commitment, others point out the financial burden associated with the fast paced roll-out of photovoltaics, rendering the transition to renewable energies unsustainable in their view.[5]

    Link

    This unit in question is not and cannot be used as anything but a short term replacement. It was not meant to be and is not being sold as replacement for grid power longer than one day.

    As for savings, the average home uses around 30 KWH per day.  If you could save 30% of that, around 10 KWH/day at 10 cents @ the daily savings is $1.00. With an initial investment of around $10,000 the payback break even is around 28 years if you ignore the ROI you could get from $10,000 invested in blue chips.

    And don't forget. When the battery dies you start over. And note the 10 year warranty. That tells you what they see as an end of life.

    So it doesn't work for emergencies and it doesn't work for saving.

    Yeah. Telsa will be, probably are today, looking for a tax payer subsidy.

    You know, you follow me around just to disagree. I wish you could put up some challenging points but some things can't be defended.

    And, as I noted, I wish I had $10K to spare. I'd like to have one to play with.

    After all, the only difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys.

    Parent

    I doubt your analysis (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun May 03, 2015 at 12:22:37 PM EST
    and an entry in the Wiki, along with nameless "others" in Germany is all you have?

    Here's something a little more up to date:

    With a production volume of 1,3 GW, Germany was a net importer of solar cells and modules in 2013 (Photon 2014-01). However, in other sectors of the PV industry, the country is clearly a net exporter and, in certain areas, an international market leader (e.g. inverters, PV manufacturing equipment). Many jobs were lost in Germany in the last years as a result of company closures and insolvency, which affected cell and module manufacturers, the mechanical engineering industry and installers. In 2007, the plan that the combination of EEG, investment grants in the (new) eastern states of Germany and research support would help establish Germany as a worldwide leading production site for PV cells and modules appeared to work. A German company led the international rankings in production volume. Since then, however, the market share of German manufactures has decreased dramatically due to the industrial policy in Asia and the huge investments put into  production capacity there. The labor costs play a subordinate role in this development because PV production today is highly automated. An important aspect, however, is the low complexity associated with PV production as compared, for example, to the automobile or microelectronic industry. For several years, turn-key production lines that produce very good quality PV modules can be bought off- the-shelf, which enables fast technology transfer.

    That's on page 33.  Read and poke holes in it if you can.


    Parent

    Still arguing? (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 12:55:09 PM EST
    Yes, you are.

    My link was based on end of 2014 numbers. Around 6% of the total. Yours are no newer and in some cases, older.

    BTW  did you read this? From page 33.

    8. Are large power plant operators refusing to install PV systems?

    To date, they have shown little interest in PV power production in Germany.
    In 2010 (more recent data is unfortunately not available), the majority of Germany's installed
    PV capacity belonged to private individuals and farmers, while the remainder was
    divided between commercial enterprises, project planners and investment funds.

    Why do you refuse to recognize that the Telsa unit, which I commented on, is not being sold as anything but a very limited source of BATTERY power when an external source of electric power is available.

    Now, what is it that you want to talk about? Germany? Emergency power for home and small businesses?? Electric generation by solar panels? Selling back power to the local utility for fun and profit??

    They are all different.

    Pick one and try and stick to it till done and then we can start on another.

    Parent

    Uh, that's a small pinhole there (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:05:55 PM EST
    Page 34:

    Added to this, PV is increasingly able to cover peak loads during the day in spring and summer, thus forcing down the capacity utilization of fossil fuel power plants. This action increases the costs of producing electricity from fossil fuel plants. With the expansion of PV and increase in load management, inexpensive power from coal-fired power plants whose costs have been amortized shall be used less and less in spring and summer. While large-scale power plant operators have to date shown little interest in PV installations, large wind projects and in particular offshore systems are much better suit- ed to their business models.>

    So PV drives the cost of using fossil fuels up.  You think,that's a bad thing, or no.

    From page 35:

    Many of the approximately 1000 municipal electricity suppliers in Germany have recognized the challenges facing the energy transformation and have reacted by offering new products and integral concepts, e.g. "virtual power plants" (Figure 29).

    You'll notice the diagram has the Photovotaik included as an energy source.  They may not be investing in it, but SM people in Munich realize it's there and isn't going to go away.

    And your statement:

    The Telsa unit, which I commented on, is not being sold as anything but a very limited source of BATTERY power when an external source of electric power is available

    Yes, I read it.  How does that change anything?

    Parent

    How does that change anything? (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:44:22 PM EST
    Really????

    You want to compare the Tesla unit designed to provide some power in a home at night with large commercial generation??

    Really???

    And do you understand this?

    With the expansion
    of PV and increase in load management, inexpensive power from coal-fired power
    plants whose costs have been amortized shall be used less and less in spring and summer.
    While large-scale power plant operators have to date shown little interest in PV
    installations, large wind projects and in particular offshore systems are much better suited
    to their business models


    Parent
    The utilities will cope with the PV (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun May 03, 2015 at 02:16:27 PM EST
    electricity as in the diagram on page 34.  

    Parent
    There is no diagram on page 34 (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:30:03 PM EST
    and if you mean page 35...So what?? It proves nothing beyond the fact that Germany has shared ownership...

    Which, BTW, is not true in the US. Generation transmission and local distribution are two separate things.

    And neither has anything to do with Tesla's gadget.

    Parent

    page 35 then (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:37:03 PM EST
    But it's there.  And you are still missing the point, they account for PV going into their system, even if it comes from their customers and they don't generate it directly.

    You're not doing very well at this argument, Jim.  Give up before you make yourself the laughing stock of this thread.

    Parent

    And your point is?? (none / 0) (#126)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    Customer generated power with sell back options is very old news.

    You should pay attention to what MacBainn wrote.

    But you won't so I'm done with you.

    Parent

    Take a chill-pill, Jim. (none / 0) (#134)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 04, 2015 at 03:15:48 PM EST
    BTW - Emergency sources (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 12:15:01 PM EST
    of electric power are not meant to compete with grid power. Small units with gasoline engines are very limited as to time in service. And if the disaster is of any size it is likely that your local service station will be shut down.

    NG is more reliable in that the utility should be able to provide NG for about a week.

    LP can be configured based on the generator's consumption and you can install the amount needed to last as long as you need.

    Solar panels work and can be configured for almost size, assuming local codes don't restrict you. But they don't work at night and you must have a battery back up.

    Telsa's batteries are very very expensive and the solar panels are also expensive.

    Choose your poison. It's your money.

    Parent

    They've already demonstrated (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun May 03, 2015 at 12:41:19 PM EST
    the feasibility of using solar/battery power in a local grid:

    With rising electricity prices one of the biggest issues facing households, Griffith University (Australia) research into energy storage and supply holds the promise of cheaper, better quality power for the low voltage (LV) electricity distribution network.

    According to the research from Griffith's School of Engineering and published in the journal Applied Energy, a forecast-based, three-phase battery energy storage scheduling and operation system provides benefits such as reduced peak demand, more efficient load balancing and better management of supply from solar photovoltaics (PV).(Ed)

    Researcher Mr Chris Bennett, working under the supervision of Associate Professor Rodney Stewart and Professor Jun Wei Lu, has developed and applied an intelligent scheduling system to a South-East Queensland-based LV distribution network servicing 128 residential customers.

    "The low voltage network is a typical suburb of a few hundred homes where there is a single area transformer and recently there has been a substantial increase in the number of homes with installed residential solar PV in these settings," says Mr Bennett.



    Parent
    Oh good grief (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:33:44 PM EST
    First, it is in Australia and may or may not apply to the US and is only for 128 home blocks where low voltage distribution is required. (I read that as 240V.)

    Secondly, do you understand what this means?

    a forecast-based, three-phase battery energy storage scheduling and operation system provides benefits such as reduced peak demand, more efficient load balancing and better management of supply from solar photovoltaics (PV).

    And do you get the meaning of this??

    ...has developed and applied an intelligent scheduling system to a South-East Queensland-based LV distribution network servicing 128 residential customers.

    Did you note that there are no economic analysis with the article??

    So what you have is a STUDY without installed costs claiming

    Battery energy storage project shows promise for electricity network

    Well, duh.

    Now, pick one and let's debate...

    Wait, you just did.

    So, some questions.

    What is the installed cost?

    What is the end of life (EOL) for the system?

    Who will be responsible for the installation and maintenance of the transmission infrastructure?

    What is base level of expected demand and what is the forecast of increased demand in KWH and time.

    What is the expected degradation rate of the panels? And what base level of power production is built in??

    Your turn.

    Parent

    As someone who lives off the grid (none / 0) (#29)
    by ragebot on Sun May 03, 2015 at 12:19:48 PM EST
    on a 42 foot catamaran which gets most of its electricity from solar panels which is stored in a house battery bank and powers my lights, navigation instruments (GPS, chart plotter, and radar) electric windless, and two refrigeration units (one of which makes ice) I have direct personal experience with the day to day issues and costs of using solar power.

    I also spend time researching the current state of solar power.  Not saying the Tesla battery is a bust but everyone I know who depends on solar power and pays for their setup with their own dollars agrees flooded batteries provide the best bang for the buck.  Problem is they are heavy, require regular fluid level checks, and a minimum level of skill in charging.

    Before I settled on my sailboat I investigated earthships and their compound in NM.  They also recommend flooded batteries, specifically 6V golf cart batteries to get the best bang for the buck.

    I will say I am encouraged by what China is doing with predatory pricing of its solar panels driving the cost below what most other countries can match.  China is also doing what seems to be bleeding edge research on batteries and that is where I am looking for a breakthrough.

    Maybe a little OT but living on a boat sailing on the ocean has made a lot more aware of how much fresh water I use and where it comes from.  Look as CA now.  They seem to be a lot more concerned about where their fresh water source than the electricity going off.  My biggest worry is what will happen when we don't have enough water for folks to drink.

    Parent

    Ah, my envy meter has exploded... (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:04:01 PM EST
    Back in the day I was transferred to Seattle and one day at lunch with customers, before we had moved, I met a guy who was a friend of a guy who had a large motor sail for sale...

    He gave me a tour and I later called my wife and suggested that since the kids were gone it would make a wonderful home for us...

    Her reply:

    "Your drunk, aren't you??"

    Wives often have no sense of humor hut a great deal of perception.

    Parent

    Seven things (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by ragebot on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:29:24 PM EST
    You don't want to know about boat life

    And a quotation from the last part of the article:

    There isn't going to be an infinite amount of stars glowing above your head at night. You're not going to feel as terrified or astonished when thunderstorms and windstorms pass through. You're going to miss seeing, smelling, and hearing the change in the weather and in the seasons.

    You risk so much by diving into the unknown. You risk giving up everything that gives you joy in the hope you can find something greater, and you risk finding nothing at all. But that's the beauty of it. No matter how long you decide to stay salty, you'll always carry the inspiration, wonder, and desire boat life will instill in you.

    Parent

    Ready to burn? (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 02, 2015 at 05:22:17 PM EST


    End Times broadcaster Rick Wiles spoke with Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel on his "Trunews" program yesterday about what will happen to the United States if the Supreme Court strikes down bans on same-sex marriage. Unsurprisingly, neither was optimistic.

    "Now the communists rule this nation," Wiles said in a monologue before his interview with Staver, "and everywhere communism takes control, they go after the churches and they kill the pastors and they demolish the church buildings and they reeducate the church children. That's what's coming to America. It's already started."

    "We are at the end of the road as a nation," he warned. "If the Supreme Court dares to defy Almighty God one more time, I'm telling you it will be the last time."

    "I believe I am speaking under the unction of the Holy Spirit," he continued. "I'm telling you there will be swift, sudden and devastating consequences for the United States of America. America will be brought to its knees, there will be pain and suffering at a level we've never seen in this country. The word that I hear in my spirit is `fire.' I do not know if it refers to riots or looting or war on American soil or a fireball from space. I simply know that a sweeping, consuming fire will come across the United States of America and this country will be charred and burned."

    the fire he is worried about-The Serpentine Fire

    Wow. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:02:13 AM EST
    That's some truly serious wingbattitude on display. While the Lord may be omnipresent and omnipotent, it's likely that He's working on far less ambitious projects, and presently has no plans to preside over our country's prospective char-broiling regarding the matter of marriage equality.

    Since Mr. Wiles' repeated pleas for divine vengeance against all of us homo-lovin' heretics and heathens has thus far been obviously denied, the notion that he's somehow been imbued with the power of the Holy Spirit is nonsensical. Rather, I find it comforting to believe that perhaps God Himself has grown weary of such spiritually vainglorious pipsqueaks, and is choosing to ignore their delusional tirades.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    that is some heavy-duty RWRNJ grifting (2.00 / 1) (#10)
    by cpinva on Sun May 03, 2015 at 05:48:03 AM EST
    on display. I've no doubt that contributions to mr. wiles' show streaked upward afterwards, to enable mr. wiles to continue his good work against satan. I'm sure some of it went to pay mr. wiles' personal living expenses, but it's hard to fight satan on an empty stomach.

    the real problem the GOP and their various and sundry hangers on face, is the ongoing, steady decline in the elderly white population. as they die off, they aren't being replaced in anything close to a 1:1 ratio. since the success of their grifts depends on this demographic constantly soiling their Depends in fear, depletion causes that rube pie to shrink, at an accelerated rate. they must continue to ramp up the fear meter, to get as much cash out of these people as they can, before the rube supply hits the point of negative returns.

    Parent

    lol - rube supply and rube pie (none / 0) (#81)
    by Mr Natural on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:29:04 AM EST
    Another Total Jerk (none / 0) (#23)
    by Mr Natural on Sun May 03, 2015 at 09:47:37 AM EST
    My comments in response would have to go on another talkboard.  Way too foul.

    Parent
    Somewhat Unrealted... (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by ScottW714 on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:16:55 AM EST
    ...but my buddy was telling me about a reality show, something doomsday.  And they are all nutz, but he was telling me they all have one thing in common, they are all super-religious.

    How odd that god is suppose to bring peace and love into people's hearts, but for these people, he brings the apocalypse, and the selfishness that one would need to survive it.  Which is ridiculous in itself, if god is doing this then as a devout follower, why would they plan on surviving it.

    it's like their own god hates them a whole lot.

    Parent

    For those of you clinging to the belief (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Anne on Sat May 02, 2015 at 10:44:20 PM EST
    that there has been a rush to judgment:

    The Baltimore Sun was granted exclusive access to the task force and monitored the investigation for days. The Sun agreed not to publish details about the investigation until Baltimore State's Attorney Marilyn J. Mosby decided whether to prosecute any of the officers involved in the Gray incident, though reporters continued to use other sources for information. On Friday, she announced charges against six officers.

    [...]

    Officers assigned to the task force had been working for two weeks to complete an investigation that might otherwise have taken months. They canvassed West Baltimore for witnesses and mapped out the locations of security camera footage. To recreate Gray's 45-minute ride in a police van, plainclothes officers rolled a $250,000 laser imaging system on a tripod down potholed roads and cracked sidewalks, ready to tell residents who questioned them that they were city surveyors.

    At least 30 members of the Police Department were pulled onto the task force, including staff from the crime lab, Force Investigation Team, Internal Affairs, Homicide, and automobile CRASH team. Each brought with them an expertise to help answer the questions a volatile city desperately needed: how Gray sustained the severed spine and other injuries that led to his death on April 19, a week after his arrest.

    Too much in the article to reproduce here, but having read it, I am left feeling that this was not some slap-dash investigation.

    This:

    On Friday, more remained. The task force was planning to go full-bore straight through the weekend, feeding supplemental reports to Mosby's office, and the investigation was to remain active indefinitely, according to Brandford.

    "Important that the state's attorney continue to get things as we collect them," Brandford told his tired members Friday morning.

    would suggest that perhaps the "report" that was delivered to the SA's office on Thursday comprised information they had already delivered to prosecutors, and in fact, in Mosby's statement - link below - she says,

    I'd also like to thank the Baltimore City Police department particularly Major Branford of the homicide unit and Rodney Hill of the Internal Affairs Division for providing us with a hard copy of the investigative material yesterday, information we already had.

    I continue to have questions about the route of the police wagon after Gray was placed in it.  From Mosby's statement:

    Upon arrival of the transport wagon driven by Officer Caesar Goodson. Lt. Rice Officer Miller and Officer Nero loaded Mr. Gray into the wagon and at no point was he secured by a seatbelt while in the wagon contrary to a BPD general order. Lt. Rice then directed the BPD wagon to stop at Baker Street. At Baker Street, Lt. Rice, Officer Nero and Officer Miller removed Mr. Gray from the wagon, placed flexi-cuffs on his wrists, placed leg shackles on his ankles and completed required paperwork.

    Baker Street is one block from where Gray was originally placed in the van.  They had only to continue south on Mount Street to get to the station.  If they were, in fact, going to Central Booking, that could explain the route they took.

    Instead:

    From Baker Street, Officer Goodson proceeded to the vicinity of Mosher Street and Fremont Avenue

    Then:

    Several blocks later, Officer Goodson called into dispatch that he needed to check on the status of his prisoner and requested additional units at Dolphin Street and Druid Hill Avenue.

    From there:

    Officer Goodson in a grossly negligent manner chose to respond to the 1600 block of West North Avenue with Mr. Gray still unsecured by a seatbelt in the wagon without rendering to or summoning medical assistance for Mr. Gray.

    And finally:

    After completing the North Avenue arrest and loading the additional prisoner into the opposite side of the wagon containing Mr. Gray, Officer Goodson then proceeded to the Western District Station

    Why didn't they head back in the direction of  Central Booking?  Why did they backtrack to Western District?

    Look at a map - maybe you will have the same questions.  Here's a good start.  Central Booking is located at 300 E Madison St, Baltimore, MD 21202.  

    And for those still asking questions about whther Gray's medical condition might have occurred at the hospital:

    By the time Officer Zachary Novak and Sgt. White attempted to remove Mr. Gray from the wagon, Mr. Gray was no longer breathing at all. A medic was finally called to the scene where upon arrival, the medic determined Mr. Gray was now in cardiac arrest and was critically and severely injured.


    Thank you, Anne, and Attn. to JanaM on pref. post (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Palli on Sun May 03, 2015 at 07:06:13 AM EST
    JanaM:
     
    I doubt very much that anyone including Mr. Gray thought he was mortally wounded at the time. You cannot take an end result and go back in time to assume knowledge of the seriousness of the situation.

      You do seem to suggest that citizen prisoners should be ignored. The additional indicating factors you mention were there. But as you say "there are any number of factors to be considered", apparently, some other factors you did not mention are: race and identity of the citizen.

    Sorry, but your medical assistance comments are personal. As a life-long asthmatic, when I can't breathe I know I am going to die...and even after countless medical treatments that have saved me from death, each time I have an attack-I know I am going to die. It may feel good for you to say "I doubt Mr. Gray thought he was mortally wounded" but, I have no doubt he knew.

    To ignore a human [shackled hand & foot] who pleads they can't breathe and a short time later is unresponsive is human depravity.

    Parent

    There was a gaping hole in JanaM's (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Mr Natural on Sun May 03, 2015 at 09:45:53 AM EST
    argument.  If the cops, as claimed, aren't qualified to make any sort of medical judgement, there is no reason for any request for medical help to be refused.  They aren't qualified to make the judgement.

    Personally, I'm for all body cams all the time with no way for the cops to turn them off.  Cams on their weaponry too.  Deployment monitors on their utility belts.  If they pull a weapon, they've got to explain it.  It's all technologically possible.  Too bad if it cramps their style.

    Parent

    and we need to cramp their style (none / 0) (#36)
    by Palli on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:18:14 PM EST
    Here is a May 1 accounting of a New Yorker who joined the protest and was arrested.  
    http://tinyurl.com/lnesk8s


    Parent
    So Anne, about Donta Allen: (none / 0) (#7)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:03:12 AM EST
    Are you still claiming that he was the guy in the van with Freddie Gray according to your Jayne Miller story that made such an impression on you???

    The reason I ask is because this Washington Post story says that the other prisoner in the van was "a 38-year-old man accused of violating a protective order".

    BPD Arrest records are here for confirmation.

    Donta Allen, as you know, is 22 years old -- not 38.

    Furthermore this "other prisoner in the van" is still in the Baltimore jail where he's been since being picked up that day and hasn't given any interviews, according to the Post, the International Business Times, and others.

    Donta Allen, on the other hand, has not been in jail but out wandering the streets of Baltimore giving interviews with the likes of Jayne Miller claiming all sorts of things.

    How can Jayne Miller, investigative reporter for WBAL-TV, be so wrong about who the other guy was in the van when according to the Capitol Gazette, Jayne Miller and Janice Bledsoe, the deputy state's attorney who leads the Freddie Gray investigation, are in a "confirmed relationship"???

    Don't they talk to each other -- or is the problem that they did and do talk to each other???

    Did these two er three get it wrong by accident or on purpose???

    Perhaps you can clear this all up for us.

     

    Parent

    So, Chip...I have some questions for you. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Anne on Sun May 03, 2015 at 09:11:50 AM EST
    But first: it's not MY claim.  

    Now for the questions:

    If Donta Allen was not the man in the van, if someone else was picked up and put in that van, and if that man is still in custody, don't you think police would have said something about that?  Correct the record?  Put an end to Allen's media tour?  What would be the point of allowing that level of misinformation to be perpetuated in the media?

    In the interviews I've seen,  

    Allen said that once they got to the Western District, officers started to write out a citation for him but didn't even present it to him and instead took him down to the homicide unit.

    No paper, no record?  Or is this the point where you claim that Allen's saying this to explain why he can't be found in the system that day?

    What do homicide's records show?  Well, we don't know that yet - I expect that will come out in the grand jury.

    As for your conspiracy theory involving Miller and Bledsoe, I'll say this:  WBAL should have disclosed the conflict.  I haven't watched any news, really, in the last day or so, so it's possible the station may have done this now that it's out there.

    Parent

    Donta (none / 0) (#26)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun May 03, 2015 at 10:57:04 AM EST
    Didn't you hear Ms Mosby?? She warned the police department about saying anything about this case -- and that includes saying anything about anything about the person in their clink.

    However since Donta Allen is wandering the streets he should be asked if he has a doppleganger in the Baltimore jail, and Jayne Miller should do the asking.

    Parent

    Saying anything to the public, Chip, to (none / 0) (#46)
    by Anne on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:08:41 PM EST
    the media.  

    What Mosby said was:

    While I am committed to transparency, what I have revealed here today is now a matter of public record. However, the evidence we have collected and continue to collect cannot ethically be released to the public and I strongly condemn anyone in law enforcement with access to trial evidence who has leaked information prior resolution of this case. You are are only damaging our ability to conduct a fair and impartial process for all parties involved.

    That she doesn't want a bunch of cops out there leaking to the media seems pretty normal to me, as it would undermine the ability to prepare a case for trial.  Going to prosecutors, going to the task force with information - that's not leaking, Chip, and there certainly isn't anything standing in the way of those whom you purport to have knowledge that is counter to the Donta Allen interviews relaying that information to the task force or to prosecutor's office, both of which are still conducting an investigation. That would be part of the case, wouldn't it?

     

    Parent

    Ah-HAH! (none / 0) (#8)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:41:49 AM EST
    Uncle Chip: "How can Jayne Miller, investigative reporter for WBAL-TV, be so wrong about who the other guy was in the van when according to the Capitol Gazette, Jayne Miller and Janice Bledsoe, the deputy state's attorney who leads the Freddie Gray investigation, are in a 'confirmed relationship'??? Don't they talk to each other -- or is the problem that they did and do talk to each other???"

    Clearly, a lesbian conspiracy is afoot! That explains everything!

    (Cue eye rolls upward.)

    Parent

    Don't care about whatever (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:12:32 PM EST
    or if the are in a lesbian relationship or not.

    But if they were man and wife shouldn't Bledsoe NOT be talking to Miller????

    (Cue eyes opening wide and tongue sticking out.)

    Parent

    Completely irrelevant, Jim. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:50:14 PM EST
    According to prosecutors, there were two other men taken into custody that morning and placed in that police van with a dying Freddie Gray.

    Further, Uncle Chip is apparently channeling his information from a poster named "Sundance" on The Conservative Treehouse website, who similarly appears to be unaware that there were two other prisoners in addition to Gray, and not just one.

    Sorry, but these particular goal posts are staying put.

    Parent

    So you are saying (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:36:06 PM EST
    that the two are not in a relationship and if they are it is okay for the prosecutor to give information???

    That doesn't seem right to me.

    Parent

    ... the personal relationship between the two women and either the circumstances of Freddie Gray's death, or the prosecutor's decision to bring charges against the six police officers. People who insinuate otherwise are simply seeking to confuse and distract others from the core issue at hand with salacious gossip. Further, the prosecutor has both a right and an obligation to clarify misleading information from the investigation that was selectively leaked to the media by the Baltimore Police Dept.

    Parent
    Donald, not sure, but seems like (none / 0) (#57)
    by Anne on Sun May 03, 2015 at 05:05:23 PM EST
    you've misunderstood the second-man-in-the-van thing.

    Freddie Gray was the one and only prisoner in the van until the van responded to a call at North Avenue and Pennsylvania.  There a second man was arrested and placed in the van.  From there, the van returned to Western District.

    Donta Allen was the second man.  There was no third person.

    What is being claimed is that Allen is an imposter, that there is no trace of him in the system, but that there is another man who is the person who was "really" in the van - and that that man has disappeared in the bowels of wherever it is he's being held.

    Allen says that after they got to the station, the officers started to do the paperwork on him, then abandoned that effort and sent him on to homicide.  

    Parent

    Thank you for the clarification, Anne. (none / 0) (#61)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun May 03, 2015 at 05:41:34 PM EST
    Regardless, comments about the women's personal relationship have no relevance to the case at hand. Whether or not the reporter should have disclosed that relationship to her station's news director prior to going public with Donta Allen's story is an internal personnel matter for station management to ponder. That said, I have more faith and confidence in the state's attorney's efforts and public statements, than I do in those of the police department and its apologists.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    No one is saying this: (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 08:36:20 PM EST
    I'm saying that there's no correlation between ... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:28:50 PM CST
    ... the personal relationship between the two women and either the circumstances of Freddie Gray's death, or the prosecutor's decision to bring charges against the six police officers.

    But I believe any information given to a reporter for any reason both  the information and the disclosure should be made public.

    Parent

    What do you mean, nobody's saying that? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun May 03, 2015 at 11:51:55 PM EST
    I'm saying that.

    Parent
    Exactly, Donald...jim's trying to tell (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Anne on Mon May 04, 2015 at 06:46:09 AM EST
    you that you're a nobody whose opinion doesn't matter unless he also hears it or reads it from someone who is a somebody - a talking head, a politician.

    As it happens, I'm a nobody, too, who happens to agree that disclosure of the relationship should have been provided; just as I'd want to know if someone reporting on Wall Street and banking scandals is married to or in a relationship with a highly-placed executive in a Wall Street firm, I think the public should have been told that Jayne Miller and Janice Bledsoe are in a relationship.

    But that relationship has nothing to do with the police's interaction with Freddie Gray that appears to have led to his ultimate death, nor does it have anything to do with Marilyn Mosby's decision to bring charges against those officers.

    Parent

    No Donald and No Anne (2.00 / 1) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:29:34 AM EST
    Donald, you had to understand that my point was that no one was saying that their relationship, if and whatever, had anything to do with Gray and whatever the police did or did not do.

    It was the lack of disclosure.

    Anne, ditto on what I just wrote to Donald.

    Both of you. Your responses are perfect examples of how someone you see as a political opponent can not make a perfectly reasonable comment without being attacked.

    It is especially humorous in that you agree with my point.

    Parent

    And that lack of disclosure ... (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon May 04, 2015 at 11:59:34 AM EST
    ... on the part of the reporter means -- what, exactly?

    That the version of events offered by the Baltimore Police Dept.'s apologists regarding the alleged false arrest of Freddie Gray ans his subsequent death while in police custody is therefore credible, while the state's attorney's decision to bring multiple felony charges against six officers in this matter is not?

    Hardly. The issue of the women's personal relationship is nothing but a salacious sideshow that's being raised as a means to divert attention from the main issue, which is the alleged culpability of those six officers in having facilitated Mr. Gray's unnecessary demise.

    Again, please stop trying to move the goal posts.

    Parent

    If nothing had been said (none / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:25:18 PM EST
    about the alleged relationship...do you think it is proper for the prosecutor to leak information about the case to a single new source.... a single reporter??

    That's the point. And I think you are trying to use the ill advised claim re the alleged relationship to do... what??

    Would it have been okay at Ferguson??

    No. It would not have and we all know that to be true.

    And before you claim I am shilling for the defense remember that I have already said that I have great difficulty believing that he hurt himself.

    Parent

    First of all, jim, you don't know that (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Anne on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:43:58 PM EST
    that's how Miller got the info; as I recall the Washington Post had an interview with Donta Allen that was published on 4/29; Jayne Miller interviewed him on 4/30.  

    I have been watching Jayne Miller's reporting for years; she has built up serious and reliable contacts within the PD and the prosecutor's office, mainly because of the solidity of her reporting.

    She is and always has been relentless in the pursuit of the truth - so much so that we joke that if Jayne ever shows up at your door, you may be in some kind of serious trouble!

    And again, while I think the station should have disclosed the relationship, I don't believe that relationship changes what police are alleged to have done, nor does it change the results of the combined task force/prosecutor's investigation.

    Parent

    Frankly, (none / 0) (#128)
    by Palli on Mon May 04, 2015 at 01:11:53 PM EST
    I've been wondering abut Mr. Chips' relationships.

    Parent
    I see your point, anne (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 01:22:52 PM EST
    and if the prosecutor didn't do it, fine.

    But the overall issue remains.

    And it has nothing to do, nor have I said that it does, have anything to do with anything.

    As for Miller, Chips link shows:

    Jayne Miller, investigative reporter for WBAL-TV, confirmed to a Sun reporter Friday that she is in a relationship with Bledsoe.

    When contacted later by another reporter, however, she declined to comment and referred him to Dan Joerres, general manager of WBAL.

    Is the article from the Capital Gazette truthful? I don't know nor do I care.

    But in anything where one man has died and others are charged there must be no appearance of any conflict of interest. And given the power of the state to leak information and poison the jury pool  a reporter's relationships are problematic.

    Parent

    ... and had to do with his own shilling for Baltimore PD. I never even mentioned you. But since you quite obviously barged in here to defend Chip's position, nobody need imply that you're shilling for the police, when you're doing such a great job of making that inference yourself.

    We're discussing the alleged role of the six officers in bringing about Freddie Gray's death. But rather than focus on the officers' actions or inactions that day, first Uncle Chip and now you are instead attempting to shift that conversation toward Jayne Miller's personal relationship with an ASA who's investigating that case.

    Whether or not the management at Ms. Miller's TV station should have disclosed that relationship to the public prior to airing her interview with witness Donta Allen -- presuming, of course, that they knew about it beforehand -- is undoubtedly an excellent topic for a proposed discussion amongst students in a journalism class.

    But as far as the main issue is concerned, that particular debate is a sidebar conversation which has absolutely nothing to do with either the circumstances of Freddie Gray's death, or the state's attorney's decision to indict those six officers as a direct result thereof.

    So, again, those goal posts are staying put. Let it go.

    Parent

    The potential use of the media by (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 03:19:24 PM EST
    a prosecutor is not some subject fit only for school.

    In this case we have one dead, 6 charged and millions of dollars in property damage.

    So anything that touches the affair is important.

    Parent

    That's just nonsense, Jim. (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon May 04, 2015 at 05:33:49 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ: "The potential use of the media by a prosecutor is not some subject fit only for school. In this case we have one dead, 6 charged and millions of dollars in property damage. So anything that touches the affair is important."

    But since you insist on discussing the role of media in either illuminating our public knowledge and interest or blowing smoke up our collective a$$es, it's only fair that I now question why you, who reqularly cite crackpotted sources such as Breitbart.com and Fox News in these threads, are suddenly so alarmed about potential manipulation of the media by those persons in power and authority.

    Where was all this newfound concern of yours only a few days ago, when certain members of the Baltimore police were leaking details selectively and out of context from the totality of the department's own investigation, and intimated via the media that Freddie Gray somehow died by his own hand?

    You see, Jim, you're not the only one around here who's capable of uprooting and relocating the goal posts when and if desired. And in this instance, your immediate problem in any such discussions about other people's ethics is your own glaring and repeated inconsistency regarding your own oft-shifting standards for appropriate behavior.

    For example, I don't ever recall you denouncing what Breitbart.com did to the USDA's Shirley Sherrod by publicly disseminating that doctored videotape online and to Fox News, which clearly misled her superiors into wrongfully demanding her immediate resignation from that agency.

    Yet, here you are, complaining quite vociferously that WBAL-TV's failure to disclose reporter Jayne Miller's personal relationship with her partner somehow compromises the state's attorney's investigation into Freddie Gray's homicide, simply because that partner so happens to be an ASA in that office.

    Such inconsistencies of purpose -- aka "double standards" -- can easily lead others such as me to believe that your own claim to the possession of an ethical compass is entirely situational. That's because your various rationales for its occasional reference and use appear to be almost wholly dependent upon whose dogs are sited in whose crosshairs, politically speaking.

    You really ought to be careful about what you ask for, Jim. Sometimes, you might well get it -- and with both barrels.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald, if all you can do (2.00 / 1) (#190)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:03:47 AM EST
    is pontificate over what links I may or may not use then you are avoiding the point.

    Said point being that there should never be a non-public relationship between a state prosecutor and a media member.

    Note the specificity.

     

    Parent

    The relationship, and any disclosure or lack (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:22:16 AM EST
    thereof doesn't change the fact that A MAN DIED IN POLICE COMPANY and neither the prosecutor nor the reporter in question had anything to do with it.

    You might want to get counseling over your pathological need to reply to DIH on irrelevant side issues on this blog all the time.

    Parent

    Jeralyn- (5.00 / 5) (#44)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sun May 03, 2015 at 03:11:06 PM EST
    Why does every posting here devolve into a piss!ng match between Jim and those who, for some reason, are compelled to take his bait hook, line and sinker?  

    What ever happened to blogclogging being against the rules?  

    It certainly doesn't do anything for the level of discourse around here.  

    She seldom reads all (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Zorba on Sun May 03, 2015 at 03:53:40 PM EST
    the comments on the Open Threads. I recommend that you email her your concerns, which are legitimate ones.

    Parent
    I second Zorba's suggestion, Milehi; (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Anne on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:19:18 PM EST
    e-mail your concerns to Jeralyn.  I know it feels like schoolyard tattling, but she doesn't regard it that way.

    Seriously, I hate it when I check in here with the expectation of some good discussion, only to find that jim's clogging up the place with his nonsense, and sucking all the oxygen out of the room.  I know I've been guilty of going more than a few rounds with him, so my hands aren't clean, either.  I guess we live with the perpetual hope that eventually something we say will shut him up - guess we're not too good at realizing there is no hope of that!

    Parent

    How about we start with people being respectful (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by McBain on Sun May 03, 2015 at 08:44:30 PM EST
    to each other? No name calling or personal attacks.  Is that too much to ask?  When people do that jr. high school nonsense, people usually respond and defend themselves which leads to multiple posts that go nowhere.

    If someone is truly confident in their argument, they don't need insult anyone.  

    Parent

    Why do you care if Mordiggian and I have a (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:33:34 PM EST
    debate re solar power??

    You could even join and add some information.

    Or do what I do on the many love fests over Hillary, just skip them.

    Parent

    Oh, calm down Jim. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:38:55 PM EST
    If Jeralyn has to ban you to keep from clogging the threads here, that's not my fault, that's yours.

    Parent
    That was funny (none / 0) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 03, 2015 at 05:03:21 PM EST
    The curfew has been lifted in Baltimore. (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Anne on Sun May 03, 2015 at 04:12:40 PM EST
    "Effective immediately, I have rescinded my order instituting a city-wide curfew," Rawlings-Blake said in a written statement. "My goal has always been to not have the curfew in place a single day longer than was necessary. My No. 1 priority in instituting a curfew was to ensure the public peace, safety, health and welfare of Baltimore citizens."

    Rawlings-Blake said she was thankful for the patience of Baltimore residents while city leaders tried to restore calm after the death Freddie Gray triggered protests.

    Link

    The state of emergency will not be lifted until the National Guard completes its demobilization, which has already begun.

    This is good (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 03, 2015 at 05:12:31 PM EST
    FYI Star Trek fans... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by desertswine on Sun May 03, 2015 at 09:15:10 PM EST
    There are only a couple days left until ... (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon May 04, 2015 at 06:58:25 PM EST
    ... voters head to the polls in the United Kingdom. And while this particular election is still wildly unpredictable, the big winner come Thursday night could be Nicola Sturgeon and her Scottish National Party.

    Promising to "make Scotland stronger at Westminster," Ms. Sturgeon is now being considered by Fleet Street as a potential powerbroker and kingmaker in Parliament. 54% of Scots have told pollsters that they're voting for the SNP, which thus appears well poised to win all 59 of Scotland's seats in the House of Commons.

    Were such an unprecedented sweep to occur in Scotland, heretofore a longtime Labour stronghold, the SNP would effectively deny both major parties anything close to an outright majority. Nicola Sturgeon might well hold the balance of power in London in that event, and I'd look for her to drive a very hard bargain in the formation of any coalition government with the Labour Party.

    Keep an eye out for news from Britain on Thursday afternoon, EDT.

    Guy Carawan, 1927-2015 (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Peter G on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:50:41 PM EST
    Co-recompiler and popularizer of "We Shall Overcome".  I had the great good fortune to meet him and join him in singing with a few friends at his daughter's house one afternoon about five years ago.

    Gray!s knife was illegal (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Redbrow on Tue May 05, 2015 at 03:51:44 AM EST
    Mosby lied. It was a legal arrest.

    While Mosby said Friday that the officers had made an illegal arrest because a knife Gray was carrying was not a "switchblade," a violation of state law, the police task force studied the knife and determined it was "spring-assisted," which does violate a Baltimore code.

    From the Baltimore Sun.

    So, you don't think the prosecutors or (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Anne on Tue May 05, 2015 at 06:46:43 AM EST
    the task forced looked very closely at the knife from which all of the charges pretty much stem?

    Okay, then.

    Parent

    What "probable cause" (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Repack Rider on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:43:15 AM EST
    ...did they have to search him and thus find a knife?

    It doesn't matter if it's a pound of heroin, without a reason to be looking in the man's pockets, the arrest was illegal.

    Parent

    Got a Link ? (none / 0) (#188)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:02:03 AM EST
    This should be deleted (5.00 / 3) (#197)
    by CoralGables on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:40:09 AM EST
    but sometimes things just want to be typed even when violating blog policy.

    I often wondered if Jim ever tired of being wrong.  But then we were blessed by Chip, who in my opinion makes Jim look like a genius.

    Switchblade (2.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun May 03, 2015 at 06:47:28 AM EST
    The Freddie Gray charging document says that he had a "spring assisted, one hand operated knife" switchblade on him which, if the description is accurate, is illegal to carry in the State of Maryland.

    The report further says that Freddie "fled unprovoked upon noticing police presence".

    In any and every jurisdiction that flight from police gives the police lawful Probable Cause to pursue, detain and search Freddie -- which they did and found the knife.

    If Gray didn't have this thusly-described knife on him, then there should have been a further charge against an officer for falsifying state's evidence and filing a false police report.

    But there wasn't and there isn't in the list of charges.

    This document is evidence that Mosby lied in her press conference.

    Don't (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by FlJoe on Sun May 03, 2015 at 07:13:58 AM EST
    you think misconduct in office might cover this?
     
    But there wasn't and there isn't in the list of charges.

    This document is evidence that Mosby lied in her press conference.

     Chip, your extreme contortions of logic and juggling of facts in your rush to absolve os riciculous.

    Parent
    Knifeghazi!! (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 03, 2015 at 08:56:15 AM EST
    OMG, my head hurts already. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Anne on Sun May 03, 2015 at 09:18:41 AM EST
    And I'm pretty sure Chip spits when he talks.

    Parent
    Uncle Chip (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Palli on Sun May 03, 2015 at 07:22:00 AM EST
    "...if the description is accurate..."

    The description is not correct.

    Charging papers do not have to list every chapter & verse specifically. Nor do public announcements.

    Parent

    Busted for running away... (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Mr Natural on Sun May 03, 2015 at 09:54:30 AM EST
    All this proves, Chip, is that the instincts of the average cop are on par with those of an average dog.  Moving objects get chased and chewed.

    But dogs have redeeming qualities.

    Parent

    And (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 03, 2015 at 10:42:06 AM EST
    as I pointed out in another comment, Mr Grays instincts were not so bad either considering he is dead.

    Parent
    a favorite tweets from Seattle demonstration (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Palli on Sun May 03, 2015 at 01:38:18 PM EST
    Do regular dogs see police dogs and think: "Oh, shit, it's the cops".

    Parent
    Well -- Surprise Surprise Surprise (2.00 / 2) (#166)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 06:24:46 AM EST
    The knife Freddie Gray had turns out to have been ILLEGAL after all.

    From Colin Campbell at the Baltimore Sun:

    Meanwhile, a police investigation continues as Baltimore State's Attorney Marilyn J. Mosby builds her case. The separate investigations have some conflicting findings.

    While Mosby said Friday that the officers had made an illegal arrest because a knife Gray was carrying was not a "switchblade," a violation of state law, the police task force studied the knife and determined it was "spring-assisted," which does violate a Baltimore code.

    The "police task force" is Ms Mosby's handpicked unit.

    Ms Mosby had better get this to a Grand Jury quickly before the whole case falls apart on her or before that police task force studies Jayne Miller's "Donta Allen" story and tells that Jayne is FOS as well.

    I didn't check, (5.00 / 3) (#167)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 05, 2015 at 06:37:40 AM EST
    but I'm pretty sure that the penalty for carrying a switchblade in MD isn't death.

    Parent
    Fail -- (1.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 06:53:21 AM EST
    But it does mean that Ms Mosby gets six Fs for accuracy and truthfulness on her charging documents -- with more to come no doubt.

    Parent
    That doesn't change the facts surrounding (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 05, 2015 at 07:01:52 AM EST
    the death of Freddie Gray, nor does it let any of the police in whose custody he was off the hook.

    You're getting desperate, Uncle.  

    FAIL!

    Parent

    The police task force are not lawyers, (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by Anne on Tue May 05, 2015 at 06:52:37 AM EST
    nor are they experts on the law.

    That being said, even if it would turn out that the knife does fit the definition, that doesn't change anything about the failure of police to render or call for medical assistance, does it?  

    So, maybe the false imprisonment charges go away, but the entire case does not fall apart.

    Much as you wish it would.

    Parent

    the charge (1.33 / 3) (#172)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 07:02:58 AM EST
    The illegal arrest charge was the foundation for all that follows.

    Take that away and the case crumbles big time.

    that doesn't change anything about the failure of police to render or call for medical assistance

    But they did render assistance. They took him off the floor and put him on the bench where he could breathe better.

    And they left his seatbelt off so he could breathe without restraint from a strap across his diaphragm.

    He was complaining about breathing not a bump on his head.

    Parent

    How did he end up (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 05, 2015 at 07:06:52 AM EST
    With an almost broken spinal cord while in police custody?

    You're never going to get into that, are you?

    FAIL,

    Parent

    Waving off (5.00 / 4) (#174)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 05, 2015 at 07:18:47 AM EST
    traumatic spinal injury as
    a bump on his head
    shows depraved-indifference to the facts.

    Parent
    traumatic spinal injury (1.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:00:39 AM EST
    traumatic spinal injury

    And just how were the police officers to know that??

    Those vans don't have x-ray units and are not ambulances and police officers are not doctors.

    They did what they could with what they had and frankly leaving him on the floor was the best they could have done for him given his spinal injury.

    Moving him would exacerbate that injury if not done carefully by medical personnel aware of the possible injury.

    Not even the EMT professionals suspected that he had bumped his head and had that spinal injury.

    The EMTs diagnosed him initially as suffering from cardiac arrest based on his breathing complaint.

    And it wasn't until the autopsy 7 days later that they actually identified the cracked vertebrae as the COD.

    Parent

    The best thing ? (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:21:53 AM EST
    They did what they could with what they had and frankly leaving him on the floor was the best they could have done for him given his spinal injury.
     I see, it was so good for him they drove him around for 45 minutes. They ignored a dying man full stop.
    And just how were the police officers to know that??
    of course I don't expect them to know that, however someone decided he was healthy enough to be taken on a 45 minute joy ride, how did they know that?

    Parent
    dying man (1.00 / 2) (#184)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:43:36 AM EST
    They ignored a dying man full stop.

    He wasn't dying until after he hit his head on the backdoor cracking his vertebrae, and that happened by all accounts including the other prisoner, after the last stop that picked him up.

    Parent

    Reaching (none / 0) (#187)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:58:48 AM EST
    into your nether regions for this one
    all accounts including the other prisoner, after the last stop that picked him up.
    At this point the how and when of Gray's injuries has all been mere speculation at best.

    Parent
    speculation at best (none / 0) (#189)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:03:45 AM EST
    But the fact that the knife was illegal for Freddie to carry and that the officers had a legitimate reason to put him in that van is no longer debatable or speculation, is it???

    Parent
    The (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:41:26 AM EST
    one overarching fact in this matter is that a man essentially died in the back of the van. Yet you wish to debate over speculations and to quibble over minor facts.

    Parent
    Really? Then what do you suppose (5.00 / 3) (#181)
    by Anne on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:30:46 AM EST
    those neurosurgeons were doing in that operating room at Shock Trauma the day after Gray was transported there from the Western District?  

    Playing tiddlywinks?  

    Good Lord, Chip - how long have you had this condition where you talk out of your a$$?

    Parent

    neurosurgeons (none / 0) (#191)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:05:18 AM EST
    The officers are not neurosurgeons.

    Even the EMTs got the diagnosis wrong.

    Parent

    My goodness, you just want to have it (5.00 / 3) (#195)
    by Anne on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:41:13 AM EST
    every which way you can, don't you?  You want to classify being put on a bench, unrestrained by a seat belt, as "rendering medical assistance," but you also want the police to not be faulted for their lack of medical training for not responding to Gray's request for an inhaler or for medical assistance.  

    Gray reportedly asks for medical assistance at Stop #3, which he doesn't get, and at Stop #4, he is reportedly unresponsive, and no medical assistance is called to attend to Gray there, either.  At Stop #5, he is reportedly not breathing, and has no pulse.  

    All these stops to "check on" a prisoner, but never any aid rendered.  Kind of a puzzlement, that.  Cops say he was "acting irate" in the van, which is why they stopped a block past the loading point to put more restraints on him and do "paperwork."  They could have been at the Western District station - 5 blocks away - in less than a minute and dealt with their so-called
    irate prisoner there, and gotten him medical help if he needed it
    .  

    So why didn't they?  Why did they drive all over hell's half acre, stopping again and again to check on Gray?  If they were worried about his condition, why take that call to transport the second prisoner?

    My guess?  They stopped a block past the arrest site to put more restraints on Gray not because he was irate but because he was about to get one hell of a ride.  As long as he wasn't dead each time they stopped to check on him, all systems were go.  But he was unresponsive when they got to North and Penn - uh-oh!  And now they had a witness as to anything further that might happen, so all bets were off: back to the station they went, where no pulse and no respiration finally got Freddie some medical attention.

    Too bad it was too late, huh?  All that over what, felony running and an after-the-fact discovery of what has been deemed by prosecutors to be a legal knife?

    The cops fked up, Chip.  Whether they ultimately pay a legal price for that remains to be seen, but these guys fked up.  No one should die - much less by a severed spinal cord - for what Freddie Gray was taken into custody for.


    Parent

    No, Chip, it doesn't. (5.00 / 4) (#177)
    by Anne on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:18:56 AM EST
    It doesn't change the fact that Gray went into that transport vehicle alive and he came out not breathing and with no pulse.  

    It doesn't change the fact that he asked for an inhaler and didn't get one.  

    It doesn't change the fact that, having asked for an inhaler, the police did not call for a medic.  

    It doesn't change the fact that after police asked him if he wanted medical assistance and he replied in the affirmative, no assistance was requested by police.  

    It doesn't change the fact that a trip that should have taken less than 2 minutes took 46 minutes.

    It doesn't change that, despite having a prisoner on board who had requested medical assistance, the transport driver chose to respond to another call that put him farther away from either Central Booking or the Western District station.  

    A legal arrest does not absolve the police from the responsibility to insure the safety and health of the individual in their custody.

    The police did not render medical assistance by taking Gray off the floor and putting him on the bench, but if you're going on your own fractured definition of what medical assistance is, you need to explain why, when initially placed in the van after asking - twice - for an inhaler, Gray was not placed on the Magical Bench of Medical Aid, where not buckling someone into a seatbelt is considered respiratory assistance.  Instead, he was placed on his stomach, hands restrained behind his back, and a block later, leg irons were added and he again was placed on his belly.  Was the plan to make it harder for him to breathe before they "rendered medical assistance" and made it easier by putting him on the bench?

    And "a bump on the head?"  Really?  Wow..now there's some "callous disregard" for you.

    Please stop; you've moved way past embarrassing yourself.  Way past.


    Parent

    Isn't it true... (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by jbindc on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:28:42 AM EST
    That the police didn't know he had the knife until AFTER they arrested him?  Ergo, the knife wasn't the initial reason to pursue him in the first place?

    Parent
    It's rumored to be drug related (2.00 / 1) (#200)
    by McBain on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:52:09 AM EST
    A cop, in disguise, interviewed by Hannity said it was a drug related arrest. He said Gray was selling or possessing drugs and took off as soon as he saw the officer.

    Parent
    Mosby also charged the wrong people (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by McBain on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:49:00 AM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/nn5e7dp

    She got the names/addresses wrong.  Looks like she rushed things to appease the mob or for her own political gain.

    Parent

    Penny Dreadful (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 02, 2015 at 05:43:28 PM EST
    new season starts tomorrow.  They are running the first season before.

    Hope someone is watching this besides me (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 03, 2015 at 05:11:05 PM EST
    been watching the marathon today while I do other stuff.  What a great series.  Almost forgotten how great.

    Eva Green is awsum.  If you like her see 300-Ruse of an Empire.
    Not the best movie but she is great as a fierce bada$$ naval commander Artemisia.  

    Parent

    I didn't watch the marathon, but am very (none / 0) (#73)
    by ruffian on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:05:29 AM EST
    much looking forward to the new season. It however will be on my 'watch on Monday not Sunday' list until Mad Men finishes up.

    Anyone watching Mad Men? Last nights episode really hit home for me, as the veteran of a couple of small office closings and absorption into an uncaring borg.. I even roller skated through one empty office, a la Peggy. Loving these final episodes. No fairy tale endings so far, very realistic to me.

    Parent

    I had it recording (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:22:53 AM EST
    Fell asleep in the middle last night due to fighting off a cold.

    They fought it for so long, and are now invited to pop champagne corks because it is happening...hmmmm, yes, realistic, real-life-like.

    Parent

    To me it is more that the honchos are trying to (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by ruffian on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:24:47 AM EST
    make the best of the reality that their own decisions have led them to - note last week they were drinking beer, not champagne.  And then confronted by the rank and file and middle folk like Peggy, who don't get a big payday from the merger, who are not happy and are going to have things harder at least for a while. I liked Peggy being straight with Roger about that, and then having  more interaction than they have had in 10 years.

    To me the whole series has been a really good portrayal of personality driven small companies - the 'little people'  rise and fall on the strength and weaknesses of those 3 or 4 people at the top. There is great opportunity and also great risk in working for a small company led by people that are not doctrinaire in their thinking. They will let someone like Peggy rise on her merits. With her background, Peggy would not have had a career at McCann at all.  But on the other hand if the boss needs quick cash to make a settlement to an ex-wife...he might sell the company out.

    I've been there quite almost exactly as portrayed.

    Parent

    I did catch that the head hunter told (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:46:30 AM EST
    Peggy she needs to do three years at McCann at this point in building her career, but no more than that, and that in his opinion will set her up for a great career.

    I think she gains a prize too.  If it had happened earlier in her career it might have been devastating, now she will have chops both small and large. She is set to become the next Draper.  Will she use men like Kleenex though?  Heh, she might :)

    As this is winding up, it reminds me of times in my life when I fought off "being assimilated" at an inappropriate time and then was assimilated at a time later when the plates had shifted and it was maybe even more beneficial than devastating.

    Parent

    Yes, exactly (none / 0) (#123)
    by ruffian on Mon May 04, 2015 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    I really love seeing this being explored dramatically. The details of her ups and downs, job changes only to get re-absorbed, split back out, and absorbed again would never make it into a feature film, but watching someones career unfold over 10 years has really been interesting.  Fort all of them, not just Peggy.

    Parent
    And last night, Peggy and Roger ... (none / 0) (#146)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon May 04, 2015 at 06:13:09 PM EST
    ruffian: "[N]ote last week they were drinking beer, not champagne."

    ... were reduced to drinking vermouth straight-up. Yuck! But I just loved the way that Peggy confidently strode into McCann Erickson the next morning, unapologetically hung over and wearing a pair of Raybans indoors, with a lit cigarette dangling from her mouth.

    Here our ambitious and darling girl-next-door was all this time, forever trying to emulate the creatively brilliant but otherwise loathesome Don Draper, before finally realizing in the third-to-last episode that a more appropriate mentor and role model for her in this cutthroat business was Mr. Devil-May-Care himself, Roger Sterling.

    You go, girl!

    Parent

    I intend to stroll into my (none / 0) (#148)
    by nycstray on Mon May 04, 2015 at 07:33:07 PM EST
    next job like that (sans hangover!). I loved it.

    Heck, I may show up to Thursday's meeting with that 'tude. Might just make the partner who tried to con me into doing his follow up/admin crap think before he tries that again (I'm a contract CD)

    Parent

    I'm watching it (none / 0) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:17:28 AM EST
    They allowed a sneak peak of this episode a few weeks ago when nothing was on, so I recorded it and watched it.  Helen McCory who plays Polly on Peaky Blinders is a "bad girl" this season too.  I really like her.

    Parent
    Oh and can I offer this (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:50:20 AM EST
    concerning Dr Frankensteins necro flirtation-

    OH MY GOD!!!!

    Parent

    Ha (none / 0) (#101)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:56:39 AM EST
    thatwas so perfectly conceived and shot.  I'm watching, thinking I really don't want to see this.  Ooooooh my god.

    Ok, I get it. I really do.

    You can stop now.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:40:58 AM EST
    she totally seems likely to eat the scenery as a villan.  Did you see the episode?  There was a wonderful long panning shot through her house and up the stairs while she sung the absolute creepiest song I have ever heard with a terrific payoff at the end.

    Parent
    I did, made all the Draculas look small time (none / 0) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:51:02 AM EST
    I am very interested in seeing what she does with this role.  Her Polly Gray is many layered, her mascara cuts you, even when she cries and it bleeds a little bit it cuts you.

    Parent
    Shootout at Texas Cartoon Contest (none / 0) (#65)
    by Mr Natural on Sun May 03, 2015 at 09:24:08 PM EST
    leaves two shootists dead.

    GARLAND, Texas -- Two suspects were killed after they opened fire Sunday in a parking lot outside a provocative contest for cartoon depictions of the Prophet Muhammad, authorities said.

    Garland's city government issued a statement saying that as a Muhammad Art Exhibit event was coming to a close at the Curtis Culwell Center, "two males drove up to the front of the building in a car'' and started shooting at a security officer.

    A group called the American Freedom Defense Initiative hosted the Muhammad Cartoon Exhibit and $10,000 cartoon contest.




    I Mean Seriously... (2.00 / 1) (#82)
    by ScottW714 on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:31:28 AM EST
    ...and I like free speech as much as the next person, but do we really need to have a contest to see who can come up with the funniest way to disparage Mohammed.

    There was extra police security and the whole thing when down in less than a minute.  I feel like they need not provoke the idiots because the Constitution says they can.

    Parent

    That's free speech though... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by kdog on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:06:21 AM EST
    the inalienable right to be an arsehole, there is no half-way.  The proper retort is non-violent protest or counter-speech...whoever picks up the gun is the bigger arsehole, probably the biggest arsehole one can be.

    And it's no small feat to make the attendees of the event the good guys, but that's exactly what happened.  Heckuva job dead gunmen!

    Parent

    Agreed... (none / 0) (#142)
    by ScottW714 on Mon May 04, 2015 at 04:51:41 PM EST
    ...and I never suggested changing anything.

    But respect for others, regardless of the law, is just good common sense.

    Parent

    Scott, you're on a slippery slope (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:34:54 AM EST
     
    but do we really need to have a contest to see who can come up with the funniest way to disparage Mohammed.

    It is a very short step to this answer.

    "We can't do that because people will be offended and  maybe even attack us."

    Parent

    That's an imaginary "step" (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Yman on Mon May 04, 2015 at 08:22:11 PM EST
    ... considering you're the only one making the argument.

    But I'm sure you would also rush to defend the free speech rights of anyone trying to offend some good old boys by burning a flag or desecrating pictures of Jesus, right, Jim?

    Parent

    No Jim... (2.00 / 1) (#141)
    by ScottW714 on Mon May 04, 2015 at 04:50:01 PM EST
    ...we don't do it because what purpose does it serve beyond being a d1ck.  Intentionally alienating because because the law says it's legal is hardly being a good citizen and in terms you can understand, being a good christian.

    I wasn't suggesting any change, so take down your slippery slope non-sense.  Smarting off to NFL linebacker might get your clock cleaned, and just because you stand on the right side of the law doesn't mean you should do it for obvious reasons.  When you don't have to do something that offends others, why do it ?

    Shots were fired by crazies, but it's hardly unexpected given the past history of cartoons and the muslim nut jobs.  We need not provoke extremists, which is not the same as backing down which you have suggested for the 10,000 time.

    Parent

    Scott and Yman (none / 0) (#152)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:29:26 PM EST
    Scott - So exercising your freedom of speech is being a dick. And bowing down to pressure from radical islamists is being a good citizen.

    Okay, glad we understand each other.

    Yman - Why yes. Yes I would and have.

    Parent

    I think I'll do an art exhibition of (none / 0) (#157)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 04, 2015 at 11:01:44 PM EST
    pages of the Bible that I've used to wipe my behind with, after all, it's freedom of speech, right?

    Parent
    Guy named Andres Serrano (none / 0) (#185)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:55:24 AM EST
    did an exhibit with a cross in a glass of urine.. called it "Piss Christ."

    People condemned it. Death threats were made.

    There were no riots.

    No one was attacked.

    No one was killed.

    Serrano claimed to have lost grants because of it. Others said he lost because he had no talent.

    And it was awarded a prize from the NEA which caused many to say that was a violation of church and state.

    Piss Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. The piece was a winner of the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art's "Awards in the Visual Arts" competition,[1] which was sponsored in part by the
    National Endowment for the Arts
    , a United States Government agency that offers support and funding for artistic projects, without controlling content.

    Did you support Serrano? We do know that Obama didn't condemn it. But he did condemn:

    Religious groups and some lawmakers called for President Barack Obama to denounce the artwork, comparing it to the anti-Islamic film Innocence of Muslims that the White House had condemned earlier that month.[20]



    Parent
    Then you'll come to my exhibition? (none / 0) (#192)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:11:08 AM EST
    And of course, vandalism doesn' count in your world, does it?

    On April 17, 2011, a print of Piss Christ was vandalized "beyond repair" by Christian protesters while on display during the Je crois aux miracles (I believe in miracles) exhibition at the Collection Lambert, a contemporary art museum in Avignon, France.[17][18] Serrano's photo The Church was similarly vandalized in the attack.

    And the Piss Christ wasn't created to specifically anger Christians, as was the case with this exhibition and Muslims, as sponsored by Ms. Fellas and her loathsome crew.

    Thanks for playing false equivalency here.

    Parent

    What a shame. (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun May 03, 2015 at 11:58:56 PM EST
    Regardless of how one feels about the noxious Pam Geller, she and her supporters have the right to free speech. I hope this incident wasn't due of someone's attempt to shut her public event down.

    Parent
    I defended Fred Phelps (none / 0) (#97)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:45:38 AM EST
    i defend this.  This is the price we pay.  The real evidence that freedom is not free.

    Parent
    She believes in [her] free speech. (none / 0) (#68)
    by Palli on Mon May 04, 2015 at 06:42:04 AM EST
    Geller's show, administered by the Garland School District at their public center was a direct response to a January exhibition at a museum designed to present positive, historical & social depiction of the Muslim faith another show. One thousand Geller cohorts had picketed that event with the message "Go back to you own country". This school board event had as speaker Dutch politician provocator Geert Wilders

    Pan Geller spearheaded the wrong-headed campaign against an Islamic Center several blocks from the the DTC. Oh yeah, she believes in [her] free speech.

    Mind you, $10,000 was awarded to some cartoon about the evils of the Islamic faith- not the evil of some individual whose image said "Muhammad bad" the best. (BTW a juried "art" show that awards that amount of money for Best of Show is very out of the ordinary.)

    Parent

    My info was wrong (none / 0) (#70)
    by Palli on Mon May 04, 2015 at 07:04:50 AM EST
    The original exhibition (Jan 2015) that displayed Islamic history & culture was not at the museum but was presented at the same venue.

    Parent
    My info was wrong (none / 0) (#71)
    by Palli on Mon May 04, 2015 at 07:04:50 AM EST
    The original exhibition (Jan 2015) that displayed Islamic history & culture was not at the museum but was presented at the same venue.

    Parent
    And peaceful protests against Geller's (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:32:10 AM EST
    meeting would have been protected and allowed.

    Parent
    And peaceful protests against Geller's (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:32:10 AM EST
    meeting would have been protected and allowed.

    Parent
    Shooting Suspect linked to ISIS in tweets (none / 0) (#121)
    by Mr Natural on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:55:52 PM EST
    The man, identified by a federal law enforcement source as Elton Simpson, apparently posted a tweet pledging loyalty to British ISIS fighter Junaid Hussain and reading in part, "May Allah accept us as mujahideen."

    A traffic officer working after hours as security for the event and armed only with a service pistol killed both men, who were wearing body armor and carrying assault rifles, Garland Police Department spokesman Joe Harn told reporters Monday.

    That last paragraph reveals something interesting.  If cops actually know their business, they don't need all the freakin' psycho-toys.

    Parent

    Fast and Furious this week (none / 0) (#72)
    by CoralGables on Mon May 04, 2015 at 07:22:18 AM EST
    Ben Carson yesterday.
    Carly Fiorina today.
    Mike Huckabee tomorrow.

    Larry, Moe and Curly? (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Anne on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:07:35 AM EST
    Or does that do a disservice to the fine comedy stylings of The Stooges?

    Parent
    Ben Carson's statement was great.... (none / 0) (#75)
    by ruffian on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:08:17 AM EST
    Something like 'I'd like to be part of the process'. Well there is some high ambition! At least he is realistic about his role.

    Parent
    He is from Baltimore (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:59:33 AM EST
    odd he didn't announce there, huh.

    Parent
    Did ya catch (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by nycstray on Mon May 04, 2015 at 11:02:00 AM EST
    Carly's website?  :)

    Parent
    "I would have [fired] them all faster" (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Mr Natural on Mon May 04, 2015 at 03:09:07 PM EST
    Gotta love the GOoPers.

    Parent
    So, the website made the news here 2x (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by nycstray on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:57:51 PM EST
    that I saw. ( And yes, they scrolled to the bottom :) ) They also discussed how she hasn't really been a name for 10yrs since she left HP (interviewed young voters at some college, didn't know her and one guy thought she was a guy) and her failed senate run. Carson didn't get much more than a blip that he was in the race and his occupation.

    Parent
    Not being known as the former CEO at HP ... (none / 0) (#158)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 05, 2015 at 02:19:27 AM EST
    ... is probably a good thing for Our Dear Carly, given that her tenure there was really nothing short of an unmitigated disaster, from which the company's still trying to recover. I wouldn't trust that woman's ability to organize a one-float parade.

    Parent
    Well, the later news referred to her as (none / 0) (#160)
    by nycstray on Tue May 05, 2015 at 02:49:22 AM EST
    as the former failed CEO of HP. That's the second time I've heard that. Back when she said she was seriously considering running, they referred to her as that. Late newscast also showed the lovely website again, and yes, mentioned how she failed to secure her name site :)

    My take, she's not too popular in my area, lol!~ Wonder how they are treating her in the southern part of the state . . .  :P

    Parent

    It seems like The "R'S" need (none / 0) (#124)
    by NYShooter on Mon May 04, 2015 at 01:02:20 PM EST
    there A.A. token every four years or so. But, they usually have to dig down pretty far to find a black Republican candidate, so they end up with some real embarrassments, Alan Keyes, Herman Cain.

    But, this guy, Carson, I can't figure him out. I mean there's no denying he's a world class, state of the art, neurosurgeon, lauded the world over for his medical skills. And, he was awarded the nation's highest civilian award, the medal of freedom.

    So, how does this guy end up being a Tea Party darling, with some of his ideas too wacko even for many/most T.P'ers?

    Who knows, being a neurosurgeon, maybe he has two opposing brains.

    Parent

    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon May 04, 2015 at 03:41:18 PM EST
    think his ideas are too wacko for the tea party. To me they seem like the same wacko ideas most tea partiers have.

    Parent
    You can find more beliefs of the good doctor (none / 0) (#140)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 04, 2015 at 04:32:38 PM EST
    detailed here.

    Parent
    Just curious (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 03:26:29 PM EST
    What views does Carson hold that are too wacko for
    many/most Tea Party people??


    Parent
    He believes being gay is a choice. (none / 0) (#137)
    by NYShooter on Mon May 04, 2015 at 03:36:33 PM EST
    He says, "you know how I know that?" Then he answers his own question, "Because they go into prison straight, and come out gay."

    I read that after he started talking about becoming a candidate for Pres. advisors told him he can't say stuff like that any more. So, I understand he has subsequently apologized.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:32:01 PM EST
    But I would think that's too wacko for almost everyone.

    So why bring up the TP??

    Parent

    Yeah, it's almost like (none / 0) (#154)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:45:26 PM EST
    Tea Party candidates have a record of saying weird things, isn't it?

    Parent
    Charlotte Elizabeth Diana (none / 0) (#76)
    by ruffian on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:12:36 AM EST
    Just announced as the name of the baby.

    Charlotte is also the Clinton granddaughter's name. Discuss.

    Charlotte is a great name... (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by Mr Natural on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:23:31 AM EST
    E.B. White's story was the best.

    Parent
    A powerful & pretty name (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by christinep on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:01:45 PM EST
    As KeysDan mentions here, the full name also nicely comprises several honors.

    The fortuitous trans-pond connection has a sweetness as well ... and, it is tempting to speculate what the two fortunate bearers of this trending name will say in greeting at first meeting.

    Parent

    I prefer the name (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by CST on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:53:21 AM EST
    Caroline, after my own mother/college roommate.

    But no one asked my opinion.

    Then again, I also have a last name that is a first name for boys.  And I always thought it would be kind of cool to have a son named (CS)Tsquared.

    So maybe people shouldn't ask my opinion about naming their kids.

    Parent

    My preference (none / 0) (#94)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:38:39 AM EST
    was Madysen.  But, Charlotte it is--and the Queen seems delighted as she raced back to the palace from the castle to join in the celebration of her namesake (second place), the spare to the heir.

    Parent
    The use of the name will now splode? (none / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:32:09 AM EST
    Will they reinvigorate the demand for Charlie perfume?

    Parent
    Honors, (none / 0) (#86)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:07:58 AM EST
    Charlotte (Dad, female form of Charles), Great-grandmother, and the late grandmother.  Or, the Charlotte part could be to celebrate the new clown car-rider,  Carly (a nickname for Charlotte) Fiorina.  

    Parent
    And yet someone, somewhere, is thinking ... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:19:20 PM EST
    ... how nice it is that Will and Kate would honor the city of Charlotte, NC like this.

    :-D

    Parent

    Well, after all... (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by unitron on Mon May 04, 2015 at 08:06:11 PM EST
    ...it was named that as a way to honor royalty, specifically King George III's wife, as was Mecklenburg County.

    Of course any affection between that royal couple and said municipality and surrounding area wound up quite severely strained within a couple of decades.

    Parent

    Or a belated honor (none / 0) (#115)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:30:29 PM EST
    to Robert Aldridge, for his 1964 Bette Davis/Olivia de Havilland thriller.


    Parent
    Aldrich (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:43:58 PM EST
    err, Granddad (none / 0) (#87)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:09:15 AM EST
    Nice name (none / 0) (#89)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:28:00 AM EST
    I guess Charlotte must be an up and coming trendy name.

    Parent
    The Charging Documents (none / 0) (#96)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:44:26 AM EST
    for three of the officers are here. It's the same document for all of them.

    Early on Freddie's complaining that he can't breathe, but he is breathing all the way through the van ride and asphyxiation is not what eventually killed him.

    The cutting of the spinal cord by the cracked vertebrae after his head hit the backdoor of the van was the cause of death.

    They put him in headfirst at the scene -- head away from the backdoor of the van .

    He's thrashing around so they take him out at the first stop, put legirons on him, then put him back in the van on the floor -- head away from the backdoor.

    At the second stop he's still in the position they placed him -- on the floor head away from the backdoor.

    At the third stop -- head still away from the backdoor -- Freddie says he can't breathe so the officers physically lift him from the floor of the van and put him on the bench.

    This action would fall into the category of "providing medical assistance" since sitting Freddie up would help him to breathe better, right???

    If his problem at that point had been a cracked vertebrae in his neck, moving him to the seat with or without seatbelt would have been the worse thing they could have done for him.

    Furthermore since seatbelts have a restraining effect on breathing, without a seatbelt on Freddie is able to breathe better, right???

    Afterall his complaint is difficulty breathing -- not bumps and bruises or broken bones or a sore neck from bouncing around in the back of the van.

    At the next stop then at North Avenue where they pick up the second person, they open the backdoor and he is on the floor again -- but his head this time is now toward the backdoor of the van.

    Had he cracked his head against the backdoor at this point or was that still to come, since after this stop, the picked-up prisoner says that he was moving around and banging his head against the van wall.

    The prosecutor's theory of the case is that the fatal injury occurred early in the ride, and that failure to buckle him in and attend to his medical complaints is what killed him -- but the charging documents don't bear that out.

    question (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by CST on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:56:54 AM EST
    Are you suggesting that:

    a) it was an accident

    or b) he intentionally injured himself in the van

    or c) don't know/don't care - that's the prosecution's job

    Because honestly it sounds like you're saying b, and that's really not a very convincing argument considering the injuries.

    Parent

    As to your points: (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Anne on Mon May 04, 2015 at 11:48:05 AM EST
    Early on Freddie's complaining that he can't breathe, but he is breathing all the way through the van ride and asphyxiation is not what eventually killed him.

    Do you have asthma?  Have you ever felt like you were having trouble breathing?  A person can still be moving air, but have a constricted airway from asthma. Anyone who has asthma knows that if untreated, things can go from bad to worse fairly quickly.  

    As for when Freddie stopped breathing, I don't know that anyone knows with any specificity when that occurred.

    The cutting of the spinal cord by the cracked vertebrae after his head hit the backdoor of the van was the cause of death.

    Given that Officer Alice White says she spoke to the back of Gray's head at North and Pennsylvania, it seems more likely his feet were at the backdoor, and his head was facing the front of the vehicle.  

    They put him in headfirst at the scene -- head away from the backdoor of the van .

    He's thrashing around so they take him out at the first stop, put legirons on him, then put him back in the van on the floor -- head away from the backdoor.

    Two questions: why the need to drive a block to complete paperwork?  What was wrong with doing that in the vehicle at the scene after Gray was loaded into it?

    At the second stop he's still in the position they placed him -- on the floor head away from the backdoor.

    This was another stop to "check on" the prisoner.

    At the third stop -- head still away from the backdoor -- Freddie says he can't breathe so the officers physically lift him from the floor of the van and put him on the bench.

    He is also asked if he needs a medic, he says he does, but medical assistance is not requested by police to come to the scene.

    This action would fall into the category of "providing medical assistance" since sitting Freddie up would help him to breathe better, right???

    Then why didn't they render this form of "assistance" when they initially loaded Freddie into the van?  He had said before they even got him up on his feet to be loaded into the van that he was having trouble breathing;  if they were concerned about making it easier for him to breathe, shouldn't they have put him on the bench and buckled him in then?  I think you can't have it both ways here.  If he says he was having trouble breathing, he should have been seen by qualified medical personnel.

    If his problem at that point had been a cracked vertebrae in his neck, moving him to the seat with or without seatbelt would have been the worse thing they could have done for him.

    Which is just one more reason why medical assistance should have been requested.

    Furthermore since seatbelts have a restraining effect on breathing, without a seatbelt on Freddie is able to breathe better, right???

    If they're now convinced he's having difficulty, it makes the failure to call for a medic look even more callous.

    Afterall his complaint is difficulty breathing -- not bumps and bruises or broken bones or a sore neck from bouncing around in the back of the van.

    Really?  I feel like the constant stops to check on him were to make sure they hadn't killed him yet and could deliver a live person for booking.

    At the next stop then at North Avenue where they pick up the second person, they open the backdoor and he is on the floor again -- but his head this time is now toward the backdoor of the van.

    Where is your support for this - I haven't seen addressed anywhere which way his head was facing at that point.

    Had he cracked his head against the backdoor at this point or was that still to come, since after this stop, the picked-up prisoner says that he was moving around and banging his head against the van wall.

    That must be something you read early on; later, that second prisoner indicated he didn't hear much of anything from the other side, except a short - like seconds - of banging.  He said he didn't even know there was anyone else in there until he heard that.

    The prosecutor's theory of the case is that the fatal injury occurred early in the ride, and that failure to buckle him in and attend to his medical complaints is what killed him -- but the charging documents don't bear that out.

    Not exactly.  I believe the theory is that if he had been buckled in from the get-go, as he was supposed to have been, he wouldn't have been in a position to be bounced around for the remainder of the ride.  I don't know what you saw in the arrest video, but I didn't see a Freddie Gray who was doing a whole lot of anything in the way of moving around.  He wasn't resisting, he wasn't kicking.  

    My last question is, why, if they ended up at Western District, a mere half mile from the site of the original arrest, was the decision made to go all the way over to Central Booking?  They could have had him at the station for processing - and eventual transport over to Central Booking - in less than 2 minutes.  Instead, it took them from 8:40, when they arrested him, to 9:26, when, after arriving at Western District, paramedics are called.  That's 46 minutes.  

    I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one who's asking these questions.


    Parent

    No, you're not the only one asking these questions (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by NYShooter on Mon May 04, 2015 at 01:13:10 PM EST
    The prosecutor asked them, and the answers she got is why we have indictments.

    Parent
    Wow Anne -- (2.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon May 04, 2015 at 04:23:30 PM EST
    It's almost like you took what I wrote personally.

    So have you called Jayne Miller yet to ask her if she still stands by her Donta Allen report???

    Parent

    That this kind of response is the (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Anne on Mon May 04, 2015 at 04:59:38 PM EST
    best you can do speaks volumes.

    You're the one who has an issue with Miller,  Chipster - so, why don't you e-mail Jayne?  Pretty sure her work e-mail is on the WBALTV.com website.

    Question for you: why are the only places one can find anything about the allegations that Donta Allen wasn't the man in the van on websites that traffic in conspiracies?  All those crack reporters out there and no one else is picking up on it.  Strange, don't you think?

    Parent

    ... from two exclusive sources in the Baltimore Police Dept. HQ, Officers Kenny Dewthat and Noe Canotte.

    Parent
    Ferguson, now this? (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by jbindc on Mon May 04, 2015 at 11:53:53 AM EST
    Do you also believe we house aliens at Area 51?  That we deliberately blew up the WTC?  That Oswald didn't act alone?

    Seriously, not everything is a conspiracy.

    Parent

    With Uncle Chip, I'm pretty sure it is. (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Anne on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:06:14 PM EST
    Between this case and the presidential campaign, it's going to be a heck of a summer.

    And I don't mean that in a good way, but you probably already knew that...

    Parent

    Ferguson, now this? (none / 0) (#108)
    by jbindc on Mon May 04, 2015 at 11:54:20 AM EST
    Do you also believe we house aliens at Area 51?  That we deliberately blew up the WTC?  That Oswald didn't act alone?

    Seriously, not everything is a conspiracy.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#112)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:06:53 PM EST
    So then a defense attorney is conspiracy theorist in your mind???

    Please tell me that you are not a lawyer and not anywhere near the Justice Department.

    Parent

    If the cop's defense attorney (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by CST on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:39:27 PM EST
    Wants to go with the "he intentionally broke his own back/roughed himself up" defense, they should probably hire a new attorney.

    Parent
    Are YOU a defense attorney? (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by jbindc on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:46:50 PM EST
    For the record, just because I think you see conspiracies everywhere, does not mean that I think Mosby can prove all or most of the charges.  I don't.  But not because of some nebulous personal relationship between people who are not the defendants, the victim, or the investigators.  That might be a factor in their credibility, should their testimony come into play, but the rest?  But, Oh. My. Goodness.

    Parent
    Mad men (none / 0) (#103)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon May 04, 2015 at 10:58:13 AM EST
    So Joan freaking finally stands up for herself and quits taking it!!!

    That was a great scene. (none / 0) (#116)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon May 04, 2015 at 12:35:51 PM EST
    Meanwhile, Don continues his emotional spiral into oblivion by channeling Jack Kerouac's "On the Road," and was last seen heading down U.S. Rte. 12 in the general direction of St. Paul, MN.

    Parent
    You make a spiral into oblivion (none / 0) (#127)
    by ruffian on Mon May 04, 2015 at 01:07:46 PM EST
    seem like a bad thing!

    Parent
    Yes, it was a valiant attempt (none / 0) (#125)
    by ruffian on Mon May 04, 2015 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    Wish she had gotten her whole $500k, but at least she is leaving those pigs.

    That would've been way too big a change for Joan. No way to rule the roost in that big company.

    Parent

    Brian Moore (none / 0) (#132)
    by jbindc on Mon May 04, 2015 at 02:07:04 PM EST
    The cop who was shot in Queens over the weekend, has died.

    That's incredibly sad. (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon May 04, 2015 at 05:42:35 PM EST
    My sincere condolences to Officer Moore's family and friends for their devastating loss.

    Parent
    Schweizer's latest tinfoil claim (none / 0) (#151)
    by Yman on Mon May 04, 2015 at 09:32:11 PM EST
    For the silly few who gave Schweizer ANY credibility, his latest nutty claim - he could be targeted to be "Vince Fostered" by the "Clinton machine".

    "there is always that concern for anyone who goes up against the Clinton machine that they could be Vince Fostered" and asked if he considered that possibility when "getting himself security." Schweizer replied: "Yeah, I mean look -- there are security concerns that arise in these kinds of situations."

    Schweizer added that the security decision was made by his group, the Government Accountability Institute, and the "reality is we've touched on a major nerve within the Clinton camp. They are very, very upset, and they are pulling out all the stops to attack me in an effort to kill this book off."

    You can't make this stuff up.

    Oops (none / 0) (#164)
    by jbindc on Tue May 05, 2015 at 05:05:22 AM EST
    Arrest warrants for some of the Baltimore police officers were drawn up for the wrong people.

    City living (none / 0) (#165)
    by jbindc on Tue May 05, 2015 at 05:12:59 AM EST
    More and more like living in the dark.

    For cities, shadows present both a technical challenge -- one that can be modeled in 3-D and measured in "theoretical annual sunlight hours" lost -- and an ethereal one. They change the feel of space and the value of property in ways that are hard to define. They're a stark reminder that the new growth needed in healthy cities can come at the expense of people already living there. And in some ways, shadows even turn light into another medium of inequality -- a resource that can be bought by the wealthy, eclipsed from the poor.


    The clown car is never full (none / 0) (#175)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 05, 2015 at 07:58:23 AM EST
    Huckabee climbs out now.  S.E. Cupp on CNN says Huckabee is special because he is affable and says everything with a smile.  Indeed, and some things that he has said with a smile make my skin crawl.

    Van Jones says he thinks Huckabee is a valuable addition to the race :) Van, you pundit sell out.  Huckabee is valuable I suppose when you need to pundit point at the latest wingnutty outrage in this upcoming race.

    Mike Huckabee says his Daisy model 25 (none / 0) (#198)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:41:42 AM EST
    BB gun, his first gun, is in mint condition.  Define mint condition! I want some photos of this mint condition BB gun.  I think he's just storyfying, Josh's Daisy BB gun is all beat up :)