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Law Enforcement Says Dylann Roof Confessed

Here come the leaks. Two unnamed law enforcement officials say Dylann Roof confessed to the Charleston shootings.

South Carolina Ethical Rules: RULE 3.8: SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF A PROSECUTOR [More...]

The prosecutor in a criminal case shall:

f) except for statements that are necessary to inform the public of the nature and extent of the prosecutor's action and that serve a legitimate law enforcement purpose, refrain from making extrajudicial comments that have a substantial likelihood of heightening public condemnation of the accused and exercise reasonable care to prevent investigators, law enforcement personnel, employees or other persons assisting or associated with the prosecutor in a criminal case from making an extrajudicial statement that the prosecutor would be prohibited from making under Rule 3.6 or this Rule.

Rule 3.6, Commentary to Rule

[5] There are, on the other hand, certain subjects that are more likely than not to have a material prejudicial effect on a proceeding, particularly when they refer to a civil matter triable to a jury, a criminal matter, or any other proceeding that could result in incarceration. These subjects relate to:

...(b) in a criminal case or proceeding that could result in incarceration, the possibility of a plea of guilty to the offense or the existence or contents of any confession, admission, or statement given by a defendant or suspect or that person’s refusal or failure to make a statement;

American Bar Association Standards of Criminal Justice Relating to Prosecution Function

Standard 3-1.4 Public Statements

(a) A prosecutor should not make or authorize the making of an extrajudicial statement that a reasonable person would expect to be disseminated by means of public communication if the prosecutor knows or reasonably should know that it will have a substantial likelihood of prejudicing a criminal proceeding.

(b) A prosecutor should exercise reasonable care to prevent investigators, law enforcement personnel, employees, or other persons assisting or associated with the prosecutor from making an extrajudicial statement that the prosecutor would be prohibited from making under this Standard.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Frankly, (4.25 / 4) (#18)
    by Palli on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 08:06:25 AM EST
    people should be more concerned & appalled with the unusual admonishment to the courtroom announcing Dylann Roof's family as "victims" voiced by Judge Gosnell when he opened the Hearing. The expression of white solidarity was blatant and, no doubt, a pre-emptive attempt to protect the extended Roof family from FBI investigative scrutiny.

    There is a clear history of Gosnell's racist perspective from the bench. For example, this is what the judge told a black defendant during a bond reduction hearing 2013:

    "There are four kinds of people in this world: black people, white people, red necks, and n-----s,"

    Judge Gosnell later described the comment as an "ill-considered effort to encourage him to recognize and change the path he had chosen in life."
    http://tinyurl.com/oxtnalj

    Judge James (Skip) Gosnell, (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 01:22:00 PM EST
    was, at a minimum, insensitive at the bond hearing.  A generous assessment would be that his timing was  off.   It was not about the family of Dylann Roof at that hearing, it was about the alleged gunman and the victims and their families/loved ones. According to South Carolina law families of the victims have a right to make a statement.

    The family of Dylann Roof is not known to us at this time nor is their responsibilities and contributions to his murderous and terrorist actions, if any. It may well be that they, too,  have been victimized by Roof's actions but that commentary, in any event,  is for later. It may be that Judge Skip knows or knows of the family--I understand Roof's grandfather is an attorney in Columbia. If so, it only confirms my view that he is tone deaf.      

    Parent

    The South Carolina (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 07:48:11 PM EST
    Supreme Court has assigned the case to a different judge

    Parent
    More like.... (none / 0) (#56)
    by unitron on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 07:42:44 PM EST
    ...they assigned it to someone who actually is an actual judge and not just a magistrate.

    Parent
    True. But tin the comment to (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 12:39:21 AM EST
    which I replied the reference was to "Judge Gosnell.""  Magistrates like to be called "judge.
    "

    Parent
    Certifiable (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jack203 on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 09:00:45 PM EST
    "The expression of white solidarity was blatant and, no doubt, a pre-emptive attempt to protect the extended Roof family from FBI investigative scrutiny."

    This is borderline insane.  All you are proving is those on the far left are just as crazy as those on the far right.

    Parent

    Look in the mirror (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 07:00:05 AM EST
    All your comment proves is that you are as tone deaf as the judge. Trying to utilize labels like the "far left" and using words like "certifiable", "insane" and "crazy" to discount comments and hide your own bias is a reflection on you and in no way diminishes the orginal comment.


    Parent
    Ok you're right, (none / 0) (#87)
    by Jack203 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:39:45 AM EST
    It was "no doubt" a preemptive strike by the judge so their wouldn't be an FBI investigation.

    My only bias is rational thought.   I'm aware I won't get that with internet radicals.

    Parent

    Why the concern with the family (none / 0) (#35)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 01:26:05 AM EST
    of the accused....

    I never heard of a judicial officer using the "n" word while on the bench....

    Parent

    I hear you and agree, Jeralyn. (4.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:06:06 PM EST
    Leaks like this are deplorable, because they compromise a defendant's right to due process. That said, this tragedy has transcended the legal realm at this point into one that's become very political. And right now, the district attorney in Charleston, SC is riding atop a boxcar on a runaway train, as are other state and local public officials.

    Emotions are at a fever pitch in South Carolina right now. And given that state's sordid history of race relations, it won't take very much at all for grief to be very quickly channeled into rage -- particularly if South Carolina's substantial African-American community gets the collective impression that the state's mostly white public officials don't really care about the black lives that were lost here.

    Suffice to say that this is a highly combustible setting at present, one which holds rich potential to explode into public violence, and public officials like the Charleston D.A. are walking a very fine line here. It's vitally important right now that the situation be diffused, and that cooler heads in the community be allowed an opportunity to prevail.

    I won't try to excuse the violation of legal protocols and procedure, because I can't. That's now for the courts to straighten out. All I can do is offer my own take, based on my own experience, regarding how politicians like the D.A. might be rationalizing their actions right now. In that respect, I think prosecutors figured that leaking such information would reassure an angry public that the arc of the universe does indeed bend toward justice.

    It may well be that the D.A. has determined that if the price for civil peace in the community requires prosecutors to risk the possibility that Dylann Roof's alleged confession will have to be tossed out, then it's a small cost to pay on balance -- especially if they feel that the preponderance of evidence already amassed against Roof otherwise mitigates any real need for it.

    Aloha.

    Pure and simple: speculation. (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:19:24 PM EST
    and rather nonsensical (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:27:15 PM EST
      speculation at that.

      The leak has nothing to do with whether the statement would be suppressed. The leak could become important if the statement is suppressed because it was obtained in violation of the 5th or 6th Amendments, because it being publicized could make it more difficult to seat an impartial jury, but the leak itself will have no bearing on the admissibility of the statement.

      Just good old common sense should inform people that in the immediate aftermath (or ever, for that matter)  of such an event that a local prosecutor does not have complete control over the actions of others and laying blame for the leak at his feet without a shred of evidence  is wholly unfair

    Parent

    do you and oculus both have reading (none / 0) (#16)
    by cpinva on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:49:58 PM EST
    comprehension problems? he said it was speculation straight up, speculation informed by his personal experiences. neither of you were forced to read it. and no need to be nasty in  your criticism of it.

    this though:

    "And given that state's sordid history of race relations"

    has to be in the running for the understatement of the year award. maybe even the century, though I realize the century's still very young.

    Parent

    I have no difficulty reading (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 12:44:20 AM EST
    what Donald wrote, including:

    All I can do is offer my own take, based on my own experience, regarding how politicians like the D.A. might be rationalizing their actions right now. In that respect, I think prosecutors figured that leaking such information would reassure an angry public that the arc of the universe does indeed bend toward justice.

    It may well be that the D.A. has determined that if the price for civil peace in the community requires prosecutors to risk the possibility that Dylann Roof's alleged confession will have to be tossed out, then it's a small cost to pay on balance -- especially if they feel that the preponderance of evidence already amassed against Roof otherwise mitigates any real need for it.

    I read this as Donald speculating that the prosecutor's office leaked the information that the suspect confessed and decided to leak the information in an attempt to forestall a hypothetical uprising by African Americans in Charleston.

    Reply to This |  1  2  3  4  5



    Parent
    And, besides, (none / 0) (#84)
    by NYShooter on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 11:30:41 PM EST
    he wasn't talking to you peons; didn't you see the greeting? He was having a private tête-à-tête with Jeralyn. When he wants to talk to you, he'll let you know.

    Jeesh!

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#12)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:35:10 PM EST
    I won't excuse the complete conjecture, because I can't.

    Parent
    Reasonable Care ? (none / 0) (#1)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 12:53:06 PM EST
    I can't imagine a confession could ever be kept quiet in a mass shooting case no matter what a prosecutor does.

    Sequestration of every (none / 0) (#2)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:39:14 PM EST
    Person w/knowledge of the defendan't statements. Duct tape.

    Parent
    Including Janitors, the Fed Ex Guy... (none / 0) (#3)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:49:37 PM EST
    ...other criminals, and whomever else may pop into the police station and hear something.

    That is the great thing with anonymous sources, you don't have to divulge it was the lunch lady dropping off crullers for the department.

    Parent

    Or not hear anything at all (none / 0) (#6)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:29:45 PM EST
    Anonymous source can also mean I have no source at all. Oftentimes synonymous with "they say" and "I once heard" and "I just make sh!t up"

    But in this case, actually confessing early would probably limit the "heightening public condemnation" because right now it's about as high as it can get.


    Parent

    I Would Think... (none / 0) (#13)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:53:59 PM EST
    ...that you would need a source to a confession of 9 murders.  I am not the press, but I would think they at least need a nugget for details like that.

    Parent
    Well, the article (none / 0) (#7)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:32:53 PM EST
      does attribute it to 2 law enforcement officials.

    Parent
    very true (none / 0) (#4)
    by nyjets on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:14:04 PM EST
    THe prosecutor can only do so much. The best they can do is limit information to select people and if they find someone that actually leaked information, have them publicly fired.


    Parent
    Only if it is one of his employees (none / 0) (#5)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:27:20 PM EST
    The police are not employed by  a prosecutor's office. The police are also not governed by the RPC. A prosecutor can establish a policy and request it be followed but he can't fire a cop (it's hard to fire cops for things a lot more troubling than this and has to be done in accordance with law and civil service regs-- by the police department.

       The attempt to besmirch the prosecutor for this is rather lame as obviously many LE will be aware of the statement and even the article states the statement was made to both CPD and the FBI. The prosecutor can tell police within his jurisdiction that he doesn't want them to talk but he doesn't even have that power over the FBI.

      At times the bias here gets  a little over the top.

    Parent

    At least one source id Federal (none / 0) (#9)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:17:07 PM EST
    Roof has reportedly made statements "tantamount to a confession" in the shooting, a law enforcement source said earlier Friday.  

    The federal law enforcement official, speaking anonymously, said he was told that Roof talked to local investigators and described some details about Wednesday night's shooting. The source has been briefed on the matter but is not permitted to speak publicly because the case is unfolding.

    Link

    Parent

    This is more bothersome: (none / 0) (#14)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:16:42 PM EST
    Families of Charleston shooting victims address Dylann Roof

    I've never seen that before.

    Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

    Shouldn't that take place at sentencing after he has been convicted at trial?

    Where was his lawyer for this or does he even have one yet?

    As reported on the news this pm (none / 0) (#15)
    by christinep on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:41:05 PM EST
    In South Carolina, victims/victims families have the right to make a statement at the bail hearing. They chose to do so.  The major networks led with that story ... very moving.

    Parent
    Provisions of that sort are not unusual (none / 0) (#29)
    by Peter G on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 07:41:39 PM EST
    within a state's "Crime Victims' Bill of Rights" law.

    Parent
    The Times (none / 0) (#20)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 04:20:52 PM EST
    finds Root's "manifesto", wierdly George Zimmerman makes an appearance.
    "The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case...........It was obvious that Zimmerman was in the right."


    Roots "manifesto"... (none / 0) (#21)
    by desertswine on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 05:42:32 PM EST
    is truly disturbing.  TPM has published the full text.  It contains racist slurs and offensive language.

    Parent
    The Disturbing Thing is its Commonplaceness (none / 0) (#39)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 10:01:52 AM EST
    It is a farrago of some of the same stupidities anybody who reads web forums sees every day.  You would think he would at least know that horses and donkeys produce sterile offspring when they mate and that makes them separate species.  The Trayvon Martin case highlights more the weaknesses of the US criminal justice system than any failing of black people.

    Parent
    It would be irresponsible not (none / 0) (#22)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 05:47:56 PM EST
    to speculate....  I just don't know, Jeb! it was an attack against Christians, just as simple as that... rest of Republican presidential candidates.

    Parent
    Yeah... (none / 0) (#59)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 09:27:56 AM EST
    ...that is because Roof's mentor group donated to republican candidates and now they are tripping over themselves to give it back.

    The leader of a rightwing group that Dylann Roof allegedly credits with helping to radicalise him against black people before the Charleston church massacre has donated tens of thousands of dollars to Republicans such as presidential candidates Ted Cruz, Rand Paul and Rick Santorum.

    Earl Holt has given $65,000 to Republican campaign funds in recent years while inflammatory remarks - including that black people were "the laziest, stupidest and most criminally-inclined race in the history of the world" - were posted online in his name.

    LINK

    Parent
    The GOP's (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 10:23:29 AM EST
    problem is deeper than just taking donations. The GOP's association with this group goes back to the 1990's or maybe even before. The worse problem for the GOP is their ideas are the same as the CCC only the GOP has put them through finishing school.

    Parent
    You Mean Like This: (none / 0) (#61)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 11:02:33 AM EST
    Donald Trump 06.12.2015:
    When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. They are not sending you. They are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs and they are bringing crime, and they're rapists.

    Dylann Roof 06.14.2015:

    You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.

    Trump's ideas attending finishing school is a pretty funny thought.  I think they skip class most days.

    Parent

    Am I alone in thinking (none / 0) (#63)
    by CST on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 11:23:55 AM EST
    That not only is that racist, but "our" women is supremely sexist as well.  Ummm, just no.  White women do not belong to white men.

    Parent
    I also get the impression (none / 0) (#64)
    by CST on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 11:25:32 AM EST
    that by "rape" he just means "are with".

    Parent
    Responding to both your points: (none / 0) (#65)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 11:38:46 AM EST
    Referring to "our women" is sexist, harking back to the days when women were property; it grates on my ears.

    And I'm pretty sure people like this consider any sexual act between a black man and a white woman to be a form of rape.  I also suspect the existence of bi-racial people - like our president - hits all the ugly buttons in the minds of people who think this way.

    It's all just so ugly.

    Parent

    Yes, Roof's (none / 0) (#80)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 05:04:14 PM EST
    rape our women, is a part of the racist orthodoxy. It is, in part,  the fear of miscegenation.  Agree, rape, in this case, means "are with."  The savage murder of 14-year old Emmett Till was over his supposed whistling at a white women.   Dylann Roof's rant of "you rape" is followed by his murderous terror, starting with  an 87 year-old woman,

    Parent
    You're not alone...... (none / 0) (#85)
    by NYShooter on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 11:36:56 PM EST
    "White women do not belong to white men."

    unless were talking about South Carolina, or Alabama, or Mississippi, or Louisiana, or, I don't know already, my head hurts.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 01:07:45 PM EST
    not like that.

    No wonder the GOP is so upset about Donald running. He's not even going to try to use dog whistles.

    Parent

    The actual transcript reads: (none / 0) (#67)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 01:08:02 PM EST
    THEY ARE SENDING PEOPLE THAT HAVE LOTS OF PROBLEMS, AND THEY ARE BRINGING THOSE PROBLEMS TO US. THEY ARE BRINGING DRUGS, THEY ARE BRINGING CRIME, THEIR RAPISTS, AND SOME I ASSUME ARE GOOD PEOPLE BUT I SPEAK TO BORDER GUARDS AND THEY TELL US WHAT WE ARE GETTING.

    It is a subtle but meaningful distinction, in my opinion, between "they are", and "their"...

    What I would like someone to ask Trump is, which "border guards" does he "speak to"?

    Nobody follows up anything in these pressers, it seems.

    As for Roof, the Fox crowd seemed to be saying that he was attacking Christians, not Black people. If that were the case, he was calling Christians rapists who take away someone's country...
    Ooops.

    Parent

    Another question (none / 0) (#68)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 01:45:09 PM EST
    that I wish would have been posed to Señor Trump is, who, exactly, is he saying is "sending" us these people?

    It has been my impression, perhaps erroneous, that people are crossing the border of their own volition, at their peril, in order to find a better life.

    So who is doing the "sending"?

    Parent

    The same (none / 0) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 01:46:54 PM EST
    people who apparently are still in Hawaii looking for Obama's "real" birth certificate?

    Parent
    Donald Trump speaks to (none / 0) (#70)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 03:12:16 PM EST
    border guards?  Really?

    Can't quite picture that...

    When you start trying to parse what he's actually saying, you quickly realize he's spouting gibberish - none of it makes sense.

    I feel like what we have here is someone whose ego will not permit him to stand on any sideline while others glory in the spotlight; he has a lot in common with 3-year olds...["look at me!  pay attention to me! Why aren't you looking at meeeeeee???!!!"]

    Please let it be over soon.

    Parent

    Yes... (none / 0) (#72)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 03:36:04 PM EST
    ...and presumably border guards would have no idea about what happens after they cross.  What are women reporting rapes to the Border Patrol ?

    Parent
    Nothing says crazy (none / 0) (#23)
    by Redbrow on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 05:51:36 PM EST
    Like a delusional manifesto.

    He was such a socially inept loner that he could not even find any white supremicist friends or groups to join.

    Parent

    Who took the (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 06:11:39 PM EST
    photos?   They are not selfies.

    Parent
    Good question (none / 0) (#25)
    by Redbrow on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 06:25:23 PM EST
    And also, why go to the trouble of making a manifesto and then hiding it to such an extant that it was seemingly discovered only by sheer luck?

    Maybe there is a conspirator or conspirators who took the photos and helped make the hidden manifesto known.

    Parent

    Apparently (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 07:05:47 PM EST
    there are reports of him joining some white supremacist groups.

    The manifesto is something you regularly hear in SC. It would not be judged crazy there. His beliefs are pretty mainstream. Go to any place where the discussion is taking down the confederate flag and they're pretty much saying the same thing Root is.

    Parent

    Do you have links to those reports? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Redbrow on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 07:19:05 PM EST
    As stated by Roof, if he is the actual author:

    I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.



    Parent
    Oops (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 08:32:41 PM EST
    apparently his "associates" were the internet.

    Parent
    That is Because... (none / 0) (#62)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 11:18:48 AM EST
    ...manifesto implies policies from a lunatic.

    You will never see a manifesto that isn't crazy, that would be referred to as a policy platform.

    Not sure if he was a member, but he certainly gives implies who his influences were:

    The leader of a rightwing group that Dylann Roof allegedly credits with helping to radicalise him against black people before the Charleston church massacre has donated tens of thousands of dollars to Republicans such as presidential candidates Ted Cruz, Rand Paul and Rick Santorum.
    Link found at comment #59.


    Parent
    Really? Lighten up, Francis. (none / 0) (#26)
    by Redbrow on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 06:44:11 PM EST
    It looks like Francis Robles is giving this guy the Zimmerman treatment. Has the times ever referred to President Obama or any other black person as "half black"?

    This whole racist thing came into him within the past five years," said Caleb Brown, a childhood friend of Mr. Roof's who is half-black.


    Parent
    Ironic (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 08:33:28 PM EST
    that you mention Zimmerman because he is the catalyst for what Dylann Roof did. Roof apparently saw him as some sort of hero.

    Parent
    Recognizing that someone was wrongly (none / 0) (#33)
    by Redbrow on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 08:49:57 PM EST
    Prosecuted, persecuted and labelled a racist is equivalent to hero worship?

    Maybe in your world.

    Parent

    Apparently (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 10:39:10 AM EST
    to Roof he was. And  Zimmerman behaved like a racist.

    Parent
    When? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Redbrow on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 12:14:57 PM EST
    You better contact DOJ and FBI right away!

    They put Zimmerman under the microscope for over three years. They spent millions of dollars and sent dozens of agents to interview everybody who knew Zimmerman or claimed to know him. They were unable to find one shred of evidence of racism. Nothing. zilch. nada.

    Where did Roof state Zimmerman was a hero?

    Why would a white supremicist murderer idolize a multiracial Hispanic democrat with Afrio-Peruvian ancestry?


    Parent

    Apparently (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 01:34:07 PM EST
    You missed the racist screed his father put out and being a racist is not a crime.

    Parent
    Relax. No need to contact anyone (none / 0) (#82)
    by Yman on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 10:53:46 PM EST
    They put Zimmerman under the microscope for over three years. They spent millions of dollars and sent dozens of agents to interview everybody who knew Zimmerman or claimed to know him. They were unable to find one shred of evidence of racism. Nothing. zilch. nada.

    Particularly for such a bogus claim.

    Parent

    Dunno how valid (none / 0) (#37)
    by smott on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 08:05:09 AM EST
    But reports are that the manifesto was posted to a domain (lastrhodesian) that Roof created himself.

    I want to know who took all those pictures. Carefully constructed portraits, some of them.

    Race Isn't the Essence of the Roof Case (none / 0) (#38)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 09:44:22 AM EST
    When I compare the current perpetrator of a mass atrocity, with others done by one or two people, from past years, McVeigh, Holmes, Nidal Hassan, Harris and Klebold, Adam Lanza, Tsarnaev brothers, etc,  I see more similarities than differences.

    1.  The biggest common thread is the inability of the perp to see that he won't accomplish anything for his claimed cause with his actions, unless it is to make himself famous, but I think Holmes was the only one to claim something like the latter ("increase my self esteem").

    2.  All were young men.  

    3.  They had easy access to guns (or bomb making material) for which they had absolutely no need.


    You (none / 0) (#41)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 10:57:09 AM EST
    are ignoring motive in most of these cases.
    The biggest common thread is the inability of the perp to see that he won't accomplish anything for his claimed cause with his actions
    No, that is merely the inevitable outcome of any lone wolf attack.

    The biggest common thread in these crimes is the level of hatred. The root cause of this hate runs the gamut from the blatant racism of Roof to the pure psychosis of Lanza.

    To put it in terms of means, motive and opportunity, these crimes are generally the same as far as means and opportunity but wildly differ as to motive.

    It is pretty obvious of the how, what and where of these crimes, but by dismissing racism you are ignoring the all important why.

    Parent

    Real Crazies Don't Have a Motive (none / 0) (#44)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 02:03:47 PM EST
    The racist screed that Roof posted online seems to be his latest brain storm to find a raison d'etre and not something inherent in his nature.  Half of his Facebook friends are black and his black friend Christen Scriven thinks he chose the church because he couldn't shoot up the College of Charleston (a white school which Roof had threatened to shoot up) because of security.  And if you want to see some recent non racist scary behavior read this about his trespassing arrests.

    Parent
    Crazy or not (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 03:14:26 PM EST
    all these criminals have a motive. Sometimes it is obvious like McVeigh and sometimes it is unknowable as in Lanza. You seem to infer that Roof was destined to become a mass murderer and simply "chose" to create a false racist persona to justify himself. Sounds kind of far fetched to me.

    It seems that you are trying all the tricks to minimize the specter of racism.
     Deflection :"It's insanity not racism"
     Lies: He was going to attack a white(???) school.
     and the old standby: "He had black friends".

    Parent

    And You Are Trying All the Tricks (1.00 / 1) (#48)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 04:44:59 PM EST
    to avoid the conclusion that the main problem here is the gun culture and lack of strict controls rather than white racism.

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    Astonishing (none / 0) (#49)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 04:49:27 PM EST
    It was a racist attack.  To not admit it is surreal.

    For conservatives, the only racism that exists is reverse racism. Indeed, it is racist to point out acts of racism.  A perfect ideology to protect people who do not want to be called out for racism.

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    Not that astonishing (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 05:02:12 PM EST
    but it is surreal.

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    No (none / 0) (#51)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 05:37:07 PM EST
    I absolutely realize that the gun culture is a serious problem, I am an advocate of much stronger controls. Guns that are easily obtained by haters, fools and loons  provides the "means" to commit these mass shootings. Our free and open society provides plenty of "opportunity". You consistently deny the importance of "motive", seemingly just to avoid the fact that racism exists.

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    Racism Exists (none / 0) (#52)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 05:59:44 PM EST
    If you had declared Thomas Jefferson was a racist, I wouldn't have argued you were wrong.  But for the reasons given, I doubt that racism is the best explanation for Dylann Roof's murdering people.  And yes, I do think he is capable of shooting up a school or shopping mall causing plenty of white victims.  There is a total disconnect between his recent claim that blacks are persecuting whites with his previous associations and behavior.  Bringing in the irrelevant Trayvon Martin is additional proof to me of his inability to do or say anything that makes sense.  

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    It (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 06:53:04 PM EST
    is very telling that you have to reach back over two hundred years to find an example of a racist you are comfortable calling out.

    You declare

    There is a total disconnect between his recent claim that blacks are persecuting whites with his previous associations and behavior.
    as if you have suddenly become an expert on the life and times of Roof. You take as verbatim the sketchy recollections of his sketchy friends while completely ignoring Roof's actual words and deeds. It must be difficult to keep your mind so tightly closed.

    You seem dumbfounded by the fact that a young person could be radicalized to the point of violence in a relatively short time, yet we see it very often when it comes to Jihadism. Hardly a week goes by when a teenager or 20 something is caught trying to sneak off to Syria or plotting mayhem here, inevitably they are all described as recently being "normal" by their friends and family.

    Like Jihadism, Racism is an ideology of hatred that can easily and quickly infect the minds of assorted lost souls, losers and flat out loons, sometimes driving them to commit atrocities such as these. These and other ideologies sow the seed of violence but deniers like you insist that the racist plant doesn't even grow here any more. Thus your insistence that the poison fruit that fell in Charleston could not possibly be racism. Pathetic.


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    Irrelevant ? (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 06:20:52 PM EST
    wow.  Surreal hardly covers it.

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    Regarding "much stronger controls." (none / 0) (#58)
    by NYShooter on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 08:57:06 AM EST
    I heard an interesting statistic on the news this morning:

    A person who buys a gun for the purpose of protecting his family from some sort of home invasion is, statistically, 80 times more apt to end up shooting himself or, a member of his family.

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    80 times more than what (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 04:16:23 PM EST
    a person with no gun?  It this a surprise?

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    I think he means (none / 0) (#77)
    by Reconstructionist on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 04:20:40 PM EST
    80 times more likely to shoot himself or a family member than to shoot an intruder in self-defense.

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    But. But. But. See today's (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 04:23:39 PM EST
    news re an attempted robbery in the parking lot of Benihana in Dallas.

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    Sound like we need to start (none / 0) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 04:35:13 PM EST
    firearms training earlier.

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    Apples and oranges (none / 0) (#81)
    by Redbrow on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 09:11:35 PM EST
    The chances of encountering an intruder are slim to none.

    Meanwhile, one is always in contact with oneself or ones family.

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    Apples to apples (none / 0) (#83)
    by Yman on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 10:59:41 PM EST
    The comparison was specifically the odds of using a gun against an intruder versus using one against one's self or a family member.  But I understand why you don't like those numbers.

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    One is (none / 0) (#86)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 08:49:27 AM EST
     very frequently in contact with family. One need not be in frequent contact with family while holding a loaded weapon.

      The point is if the reason one believes he should have a loaded weapon handy at all times is to defend against potential intruders, he should know the likelihood that one will ever need the weapon for that purpose is very low (as you helpfully point out) but the likelihood he will harm himself or a family member is 80 times greater.

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    College of (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 02:37:07 PM EST
    Charleston is not a white school

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    Its a Public Liberal Arts College (none / 0) (#47)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 04:42:09 PM EST
    I can't find anything online to indicate it currently has a predominately black student body and thus a possible focus of a racist attack.

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    It is (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 07:33:30 PM EST
    probably the most diverse campus in SC although that's not saying a lot. Very accepting of the LBGT community along with the first ones to step up to the plate to help the people of Emmanuel.

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    If reports are true (none / 0) (#71)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 03:21:25 PM EST
    It appears there may be 3 prominent SC Republicans calling for removal of the Confederate flag from the Statehouse grounds before the end of the day: Governor Haley, and Senators Scott and Graham.

    If they are going to take advantage of this window to move forward it won't be open long. Right after lowering it in South Carolina maybe they can move to the problem flying over Mississippi

    It is true that Gov. Haley has (none / 0) (#73)
    by christinep on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 03:40:29 PM EST
    called for the flag's removal from state grounds.

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    So Graham, Who is Claiming It Wasn't... (none / 0) (#74)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 03:43:43 PM EST
    ...about race coincidentally thinks it's time for the confederate flag to come down.  GD he must think people are stooopid, or that the flag represents Christian persecution ?

    And didn't Haley run on keeping the flag ?  But I have to say, she has been very good about the whole situation, from calling it a hate crime on day 1, to asking the flag be moved off the capital grounds.

    There is this:

    Under the terms of the compromise, it would take a two-thirds vote in both the House and Senate to undo the deal placing the flag in front of the Statehouse. Since 2000, several attempts to revisit the issue haven't made it out of committee.
    LINK

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    And... (none / 0) (#75)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 03:57:54 PM EST
    ...many of the pics of the kid with a confederate flag and a gun, but we are only talking about the symbol and not the murder weapon, how oddly American.

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