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Thursday Open Thread

Here's a new open thread. All topics welcome except Freddie Gray. (He'll get his own new thread soon.)

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    If Vice-President Joe Biden is ... (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 03:14:29 PM EST
    ... only a heartbeat away from becoming president, then Sen. Ted Cruz is only a heart away from becoming a decent human being. Only a collosal ass would make that sort of egregious public insult, and then afterward offer a boiler-plate apology -- on Facebook, no less.

    You can't be a conservative (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 04:56:11 PM EST
    ...And understand "empathy."

    It is the single quality that separates liberals from conservatives.

    Parent

    apparently you've never met (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:49:25 PM EST
    a conservative who had the human quality of empathy, or a liberal who was a narcissistic a-hole

    both species do exist

    Parent

    I know conservatives who are (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:51:17 PM EST
    very empathetic with people they actually know and love. But these same people have absolutely no interest in a anyone outside their own lives. Maybe it is just a lack of willingness to extend empathy rather than a lack of ability for empathy. The effect is the same.  

    Parent
    sorry to hear that (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:03:19 PM EST
    maybe i'm just lucky in the people i know

    i find that most of the time we all want the same things but differ on how those common goals might best be reached

    i have learned a lot from listening to intelligent, well-meaning conservatives - if nothing else, i learn more about where they are coming from, & to do that i often have to challenge my own biases & assumptions

    good exercise in any weather!

    Parent

    I live with these people (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:06:08 PM EST
    The bit about people outside their own lives is very insightful.  They can be very caring and generous to those around them and unbelievable brutally cruel and insensitive to people not "like" them.

    It's something I've thought a lot about since coming here.  My brotherinlaw for example.  He has been very kind and generous to me.  He is really a very big hearted person.  Generous almost to a fault. He would literally give you the shirt off his back.  Or possibly more correctly he would give me the shirt off his back.  And he knows I'm gay.  But I'm family.

    This same person has said things I can barely believe about gays blacks Muslims, really pretty much anyone but evangelistic Christians.   He thinks blacks were better off under slavery.  He thinks we did them a favor by "bringing them here" and they should be grateful.  

    I have very complex feelings for some of my family members.  I have learned they are not evil.  That there is good in them.  I did not always see this.  Sometimes it's not easy to see.  

    I expect and understand that readers here will be repelled by this.  I am too.  Still.  It's complicated.

    Parent

    I am working to be much more (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:37:56 PM EST
    Socially involved here.  I have come to the conclusion that being present will be more edifying than standing on the sidelines gasping.

    This region is really going through some changes too.  I want to encourage people to discuss what is happening with marriage equality.  The more we discuss the harder it is to stay stuck.

    One of the groups I joined, another member is on fire pro-life.  She tries to poke me constantly.  She doesn't discuss, just takes jabs.  She mentioned she wanted us to donate to the anti-abortion clinic here.  I think it is against the national organization's by-laws, but she wants me to be easily offended and leave the organization.  She's going to have to be a whole lot more offensive than that :)

    Parent

    Don't you (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:43:02 PM EST
    just love the passive aggressive BS women in the south love to dole out?

    Give me someone from Jersey who tells it to my face any day of the week.

    Parent

    Yes, and right after she says something (none / 0) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:22:27 AM EST
    Uber passive aggressive she struts around the room.  It's a little comical.

    Parent
    Hmm (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:47:26 PM EST
    not really a joiner.  I'm still feeling pleased with myself for finding good in them.  "Finding good" in people I intensely dislike has not historically been something I have excelled at.

    It feels like growing.  Perhaps it's just growing numb.

    Parent

    I think it's growing (none / 0) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:30:54 AM EST
    You aren't excluding them from your life.  And you aren't changing who you are for them.

    I don't have immediate family here to grow with or encourage the growth of.  I have very distant family in Mississippi, and I am invited to the yearly family reunion.  They salute the rebel flag though during the reunion. That's a bridge too far out for me.

    Maybe the new generation is less crazy, they were THAT crazy when my father went at my age.  Mississippi seems to be having a hard time evolving though.

    Parent

    not repelled, used to it (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Palli on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:46:18 AM EST
    This phenomena you describe is what racial integration was [predictably] unsuccessful doing. It was framed with the assumption that familiarity would bring respect and equality. But with long standing American economic & cultural inequities camouflaged with white hypocrisy fanning the fire of white resentment it has been slow going.

    The Am. civil rights movement could have been about "separate BUT equal". There should have been hundreds of prosperous Greenwoods by the 1960s. Instead, white political power half-heartedly swayed the civil rights focus toward integration so minority success would This phenomena you describe always be minority success in the context of all American society. The apparatus for integration was meager and clumsy, often easily ridiculed by commonsense & economics. (School bussing for example.) Realtors, bankers, unions and federal government programs like FHA remained firmly discriminatory so the opportunities to develop comfortable familiarity were largely curtailed. Citizens with racial bias could  avoid learning differently.

    On the other hand, there is also the integration familiarity mindset that allows white citizens to consider any minority person they work with or "know" is, in fact, different than other minority people. A modern version of the designation House Negro.

    The essence of being a good human is Empathy is caring for the "Other"-all the others. That is less complicated than our culture wants to make it.  

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:12:31 PM EST
    I have family just like that. My experience has been that conservatives are empathetic to people they deem "worthy" but are some of the meanest, ugliest nastiest people in the world to the people they deem "unworthy".

    It's like you Howdy are a 'worthy" gay person but "all those other gay people are unworthy". Everything is dumbed down to black and white us versus them. Whoever "them" is can vary from day to day. My aunt has always been nice to their black maid but treated other black people like dirt.

    Parent

    I think the word is (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:25:57 PM EST
    Tribal

    Parent
    Question.... (none / 0) (#37)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 08:09:01 PM EST
    I know conservatives who are very empathetic with people they actually know and love. But these same people have absolutely no interest in a anyone outside their own lives.

    I wonder if there is anyone in government that actually has a deep interest in anyone outside their own lives.

    Who in government is extending empathy?


    Parent

    Who? (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 08:24:01 PM EST
    Who in government is extending empathy?

    The bureaucracy.  The people across the Post Office or Social Security counter who deal with real people.  Most are overworked and burdened with some archaic system, but they are people trying to do a good job.

    At least that's my experience, because I expect people to be nice, and they usually are.

    Parent

    I agree with you... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:18:06 PM EST
    but those civil service employees, overworked, burdened and underpaid are not the ones to whom I was referring when I asked who "in government" had a character that one could describe as empathetic?

    Who currently in a position of power exudes the quality of caring about people outside their immediate circle?

    Parent

    The Clinton Global Initative (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:28:53 PM EST
    Contrary to conventional wisdom has actually, in fact, helped a great many people "outside their circle".

    Is that what you were looking for?

    Parent

    The global (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:47:29 PM EST
    initiative is not a person "in government". So no. It is not really what I am looking for.

    I'm interested in some elected official currently serving who exudes compassion or caring for people.

    There is, for me, one name that jumps out.
    Warren.

    Then there is Sanders - although I identify more with Warren for some reason.

    Other than those two... I'm drawing a blank.

    Parent

    It is a person. (none / 0) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:51:14 PM EST
    two people actually.  And its done more for those in need than Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren will ever do.

    Parent
    Than Sanders and Warren will EVER do? (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:23:27 PM EST
    Really?

    That sounds like True Believer hyperbole more than anything else.

    From where I sit, what Clinton has done in his career so far is Take from the people by acquiescing to the Free Market-Free Trade fundamentalism of the bankers and the hedge fund managers, the WTO and the Greenspans and Rubins of the world, and given a little something back with his Global Initiative.

    Maybe, in the cosmic scheme of things, some the positives outweigh some of the negatives, maybe they don't.        

    Parent

    Joe Conason (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 02:34:56 PM EST
    But if Dowd and her Times colleagues [and jondee]  were honestly interested in what the Clinton Foundation does with its funds, including the millions raised annually by President Clinton himself, all they would have to do is get off their asses and go look at its projects, which can be found all over the world.


    Parent
    Will EVER do (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 02:24:53 PM EST
    Maybe you should educate yourself about what the initiative has actually done and you will know what you are talking about.


    Parent
    Wiki is always a good start (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 02:41:53 PM EST
    The Clinton Foundation (originally founded in 2001 as the William J. Clinton Foundation,[4] and called during 2013-15 the Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation[5]) is a nonprofit foundation under clause 501(c)(3) of the U.S. tax code. It was established by former President of the United States Bill Clinton with the stated mission to "strengthen the capacity of people throughout the world to meet the challenges of global interdependence." The Foundation focuses on improving global health and wellness, increasing opportunity for women and girls, reducing childhood obesity and preventable diseases, creating economic opportunity and growth, and helping communities address the effects of climate change. The Foundation works principally through partnerships with like-minded individuals, organizations, corporations, and governments, often serving as an incubator for new policies and programs. They have offices located in New York City and Little Rock, Arkansas.

    The Clinton Foundation encompasses a number of different efforts and entities, including the Clinton Health Access Initiative (CHAI, spun off into a separate but related organization in 2010), the Clinton Global Initiative (CGI, split off after 2009 but reintegrated after 2013), Clinton Global Initiative University (CGI U), the Clinton Climate Initiative (CCI), the Clinton Development Initiative (CDI), the Clinton Economic Opportunity Initiative, the Clinton Giustra Sustainable Growth Initiative, the Clinton Health Matters Initiative (CHMI), the Alliance for a Healthier Generation, and the No Ceilings Project.



    Parent
    One more (none / 0) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 03:01:42 PM EST
    To date, members of the CGI community have made more than 3,200 commitments which have improved the lives of over 430 million people in more than 180 countries.

    Sorry.  Perhaps I take this too personally because I am a believer.  And I damn sick a tired of the Dowdish whining carping and bullsh!t from people know nothing of what one of the most important humanitarian efforts of this generation is really about and less about what it's actually done.

    Parent

    Here's a generally fair (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 03:51:37 PM EST
    examination by a Washington Post writer:

    link

    11% overhead gets an "A" from an organization that grades non-profits.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 04:16:13 PM EST
    i had not seen that

    Parent
    OK.. (none / 0) (#53)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 10:47:20 PM EST

    From my point of view you have not answered my question - not that it was specifically directed at you - which was to point to someone, an elected official currently in office who exudes the quality of caring, empathy or compassion that people associate with the word, "liberal".

    From your point of view, the Clinton Global Initiative is an elected official currently serving in office.

    So that's that.

    Parent

    "an elected official" (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 08:48:27 AM EST
    wait

    Parent
    I'm waiting... (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:47:47 PM EST
    but it occurred to me while thinking about this that the name, "Obama" did not seem to occur to anyone... including me.

    Oh well.

    Parent

    Al Franken (none / 0) (#78)
    by Palli on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:50:18 AM EST
    Sherrod Brown (none / 0) (#80)
    by Palli on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:51:32 AM EST
    And having followed the Clintons (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:49:13 PM EST
    since they were the first family of my state I can tell you that all those years ago they were interested in and fighting for the very same things.  
    I happen to believe the foundations purpose is and always was to help those who need it.  Not to gather power and money to themselves.

    Not a fashionable idea.  But there it is.

    Parent

    We once had the Clintons (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 10:03:18 PM EST
    now we have the Duggars.   I am so GD sick of the freakin Duggars.  I tried to watch that ridiculous FOX interview but I couldn't do it.  Michelle Duggars makes me want to open my veins.  I absolutely can't stand her.  I can take Jim Bob longer than her.
    The gigantic hair, the mousey voice not to mention the cluelessness and self righteousness.  These people have been on the forefront of fighting gay fights on this state.   She did a robocall telling people gay and transgendered people were a danger to your children.  After the disgraceful episode now unfolding had happened and they were getting rich preaching self righteousness while it was still a secret.

    I hate them.  I want them to STFU and go away.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 08:57:25 AM EST
    of some of the good people in Arkansas and I feel for them w/r/t the Duggars. They disgusted me even before it was found out that Josh was molesting his sisters.

    Parent
    Justice Sonia Sotomayor (none / 0) (#45)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:40:14 PM EST
    I live a public life and I meet a lot of people (none / 0) (#36)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:52:14 PM EST
    apparently you've never met (none a conservative who had the human quality of empathy, or a liberal who was a narcissistic a-hole
    Correct on the first, immaterial and misleading (Nice feint!) on the second.  The two types (empathy-free conservatives and liberal straw-persons) are not mutually exclusive.

    Both species do exist.

    The difference to be clear, is that absence of empathy is REQUIRED in order for one to be a conservative.  You can be a liberal and at the very same time not hate people you don't know.

    Parent

    To me, (none / 0) (#44)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:37:51 PM EST
    the word "liberal" has lost all meaning.

    Maybe you wish to offer a definition - one which includes a healthy dose of compassion - but I honestly don't see that quality as something much in evidence by people considered to be "liberal".

    I think that Clinton began a serious shift to the right - while maintaining the mantle of "liberal".
    I saw it right away in his being a champion of capital punishment. That was considered definitely not liberal -- but people were so fed up with Bush that we let it go and voted for and hoped for Clinton. Then he cut back on welfare - and we went for that too. Then he bombed a pharmaceutical factory - supposedly making nerve agent - and he still maintained the mantle of "liberal". Then there was his trade agreements which further impoverished the already poor people of Haiti. And he still was a "liberal".

    Then Obama took over as the representative of that appellation. What can I say about that?
    Capital punishment. Drones. Surveillance up the wazoo. You name it.

    To tell the truth, the only ones that remind me of what a liberal - or even a democrat - once felt like, I have to go to Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders. It is good that they are there to inspire those who might be capable of being inspired.

    Parent

    I think I have identified where you go wrong (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 10:35:19 PM EST
    Then Obama took over as the representative of that appellation. What can I say about that?

    Mr. Obama is not a liberal.  What on earth made you think that?  It's the kind of thing a FOX anchor would accuse him of, but there is no evidence that he is a liberal. I am a liberal.  Obama is not.  How hard is that?

    But he was not running against Jesus.  He was running against a moron first time and a crook second.

    You have to vote for somebody.

    Parent

    I wonder (none / 0) (#52)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 10:38:33 PM EST
    what he would say if someone asked him if he was a "liberal"?

    Yes. No. Maybe. Sometimes. Dunno.

    Parent

    If you know what you believe, what (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 10:56:26 PM EST
    you want, it doesn't matter how politicians define words like "liberal" and "conservative."  Their records, their actions, define where they fall on the spectrum, so go with that.  You define them, not the other way around.

    Yeah, it's harder when someone asks "what" you are, but pretty sure most people can deal with that.  Try saying, "I'm about issues, not labels."  That might work.

    Parent

    If you are (none / 0) (#167)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 08:04:16 PM EST
    addressing your comment to me, yes. I am issue-oriented.

    Labels mean nothing because they actually mean nothing. They are meant to sell us a product.

    But the discussion, as I remember it, began with an attempt to distinguish between conservatives and liberals - the former having no empathy with anyone outside their immediate circle - with the implied corollary that liberals are an abundantly compassionate lot.

    I simply meant to express my subjective observation that people in public life who have generally been depicted or described or sold to us as "liberal", have not been particularly compassionate or empathetic. In fact, in my opinion, they have often been cruel and heartless.

    So yes. As a great philosopher once observed, "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

    Parent

    Cruz is a Heartless Leach... (none / 0) (#3)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 03:46:38 PM EST
    ...but the apology was legitimate.  He didn't blame Biden for taking it the wrong way, he admitted to making a mistake and why it was a mistake.  And let's be honest, the joke, if that is what you call something that isn't funny, isn't something I have not read here, several times from fellow D's.

    It was a mistake to use an old joke about Vice President Biden during his time of grief, and I sincerely apologize


    Parent
    ... this past week, how could he not have known about the death of Beau Biden? Yeah, I've heard the lousy jokes about the vice president and his mental faculties, but that's really not the point here. Even though the news of Beau Biden's passing had been a lead story, Cruz chose to repeat the joke anyway, and then he only apologized on Facebook after he was called out by critics. That's hardly a hallmark of personal sincerity.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Whether the apology (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 04:25:22 PM EST
    was disingenuous, driven by internet criticism, or ingenuous demonstrating that he is a sensitive guy,  is immaterial.  To me, putting salt into a cake mix rather than the sugar called for is a mistake.  But, it does not get by the dinner guests no matter how sorrowful and prayerful.  And, giving kudos to the pastry chef for admitting the mistake does not change the taste.  The cake is not edible. No, If Cruz did not have his well-earned reputation for being a d#ck it might wear differently for me.

    Parent
    Say something awful (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 04:35:54 PM EST
    to make your fans happy and then "apologize" to, um, for the media.

    SOP

    Parent

    I'm with you. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 04:11:56 PM EST
    The joke wasn't even funny except to the bubble people apparently.

    Really it's just typical Cruz being an ahole. It's what he seems to excel at and it's about the only thing he seems to excel at.

    Parent

    The Alabama Senate (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 03:38:57 PM EST
    voted to change the name of the "Edmund Pettus Bridge,"  the site of the Bloody Sunday events in Selma.   As discussed a few months ago on TL, the bridge's namesake was a Grand Dragon of the KKK. According to a University of Alabama history professor, the bridge was named after Pettus to memorialize his history of restraining and imprisoning African Americans in their quest for freedom after the Civil War.  

    The Alabama House is yet to vote on the Senate's action.   if the name of  Grand Dragon Pettus is finally scrubbed from the bridge, if not history, it opens up for an up-date:  I would not be surprised if their is a new, shining nameplate in the future for the "Judge Roy Moore Bridge."   Because Alabama.

    You are too funny (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:28:55 PM EST
    sad awful story (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 04:55:05 PM EST
    Details emerge about Pleasant Grove girl's `tragic and disturbing' forced abortion

    To their neighbors, Sharon Jones and her daughter Cecila McDonald appeared to have caring instincts toward children.

    But when the two learned that Jones' 14-year-old niece was pregnant in early 2013, the result of a rape by a family member, they and two other relatives "took matters into their own hands" by turning on the girl, Dallas police said Wednesday.

    Deputy Chief Gil Garza said the foursome committed a "very tragic and disturbing" attack against the young teen. They are alleged to have beaten her for hours at Jones' Pleasant Grove home to induce an abortion.

    Then, police said, they tried to burn the stillborn baby on a charcoal grill to cover it up.

    Thanks to those forced-birth rules the Texas legislature adopted last year, almost all of the clinics providing safe abortions in Texas have closed. That was, of course, the goal. But victories like that come with tragic (and fully intended) consequences.



    Speechless (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:27:59 PM EST
    The "open carry" crowd (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 05:34:45 PM EST
    ...is itching for a shootout with police.  Armed Texas crazies confront police.

    A nutcase paraded around the Atlanta airport armed with an AR-15.

    In both cases the armed citizen argued with police for EVEN NOTICING that they were better armed than a soldier going into combat.

    These events feed off each other.  We will see more and more of this until something sets them off.  There is going to be a massacre of police by a responsible gun owner.  When the bullets start flying, trust me, they will blame Obama.

    This is about the third time I have tried to (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:49:25 PM EST
    reply to a comment and realize there is just nothing to be said about some form of idiocy or another. You are right, it won't stop. 20+ little kids died and it didn't change a thing.

    I've never felt so hopeless- I saw my dad get this way in later years, and did not understand it, but now I do.

    Parent

    Meanwhile a good proposal in Texas (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:10:22 PM EST
    Being reported now is that Hillary Clinton, during a speech at Southern Texas university in Houston, has called for automatic, universal voter registration for those citizens 18 and over in our country.  Apparently, she spoke at some length and depth on the issue of expanding--rather than recent efforts by some to contract--voter rights.


    Marc Elias, Clinton campaign lawyer (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:34:45 PM EST
    Has filed lawsuits in OH and WI so far too fighting voting restrictions.

    Parent
    Hillary Clinton heads to Texas, ... (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:18:35 PM EST
    ... and goes to bat for the Voting Rights Act:

    Los Angeles Times | June 4, 2015
    Hillary Clinton attacks Republicans over voting restrictions - "Hillary Rodham Clinton positioned herself as a crusader for voting rights Thursday, calling for an overhaul of election laws so that every citizen would automatically be registered to vote on their 18th birthday. In a speech at Texas Southern University in Houston, a historically black college, Clinton blistered Republicans, accusing them of 'systemically and deliberately' seeking to disenfranchise voters throughout the nation with laws that make it harder to cast ballots. Calling out potential Republican rivals by name, she pointed to measures embraced by Govs. Scott Walker of Wisconsin and Chris Christie of New Jersey and former Govs. Rick Perry of Texas and Jeb Bush of Florida that she said had made voting more difficult in their states."

    Good for her. Charles Pierce offers his own inimitable take on the subject:

    "Make no mistake. This is a fight worth making and a debate worth having. The Republican party considers its efforts to restrict the franchise an unalloyed triumph. [...] Voter suppression is a litmus test on the political Right now, and it is a central pillar of Republican politics general, and it has been ever since Karl Rove used it as the casus belli in his purge of U.S. Attorneys nine years ago. It is a long game they've been playing.

    "As hard as it may be for the likes of Chris Cillizza to understand, there is considerable merit in taking on important issues that do not necessarily poll as well as 'Eeek! Moosssslims!' does. The corruption of our politics by the money power, and the new mechanisms enacted to safeguard it, is the fundamental issue of our time because, unless it is reversed, and soon, all of the other issues won't matter because no real solutions will emerge from the one place where they are supposed to emerge. Ms. Rodham Clinton seems to get this. Good on her for bringing it up."

    Aloha.

    Love that he's calling out (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:21:37 PM EST
    Cillizza by name.  That guy is the worst.

    Parent
    Awesome! (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:05:24 PM EST
    It's the return of fighting Hillary who we all know and love.

    Parent
    Wishful thinking as to (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:20:44 PM EST
    "we all know and love," unfortunately.

    Parent
    Ha (none / 0) (#41)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:28:37 PM EST
    Had to read this three times before I saw your meaning.

    Parent
    I do remain part (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 09:31:04 PM EST
    of Ga6thDem's subset of "we"

    Parent
    Moi, aussi. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 10:20:21 PM EST
    Glad you're here to bring us (none / 0) (#57)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:28:49 AM EST
    back to Earth.  

    You really should get a guest column in the NYT or the WSJ, we aren't a fit crowd for the sophisticated political analysis you provide here on an irregular basis.

    Parent

    Thank you. (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 10:31:46 AM EST
    I'm just going to start an aggregator blog (none / 0) (#70)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:16:56 AM EST
    focusing on every step in the Hillary campaign really being a misstep in disguise.  It would seem there is a market for such things.............

    Parent
    I actually (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 08:58:17 AM EST
    expected more comebacks. LOL.

    Parent
    The question is (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 10:26:16 AM EST
    not how easy it should be for citizens to be registered to vote.

    The question is how do we determine if the person seeking to be registered is, in fact, a citizen.

    When I check into a hotel or rent a car I am required to show more identification than when I last registered in 2004 after moving from Colorado to my current domicile.

    And things like this doesn't help.

    Toward the end, a man in the audience asked in Spanish: "I want to help, but I don't have papers."

    It was translated and Busby replied: "Everybody can help, yeah, absolutely, you can all help. You don't need papers for voting, you don't need to be a registered voter to help."

    Bilbray said at worst, Busby was encouraging someone to vote illegally. At best, she was encouraging someone who is illegally in the country to work on her campaign.

    Link

    The current voter ID laws are, according to their supporters, designed to prevent fraudulent voting.
    Complaining and campaigning against them may chum the waters for the base but it doesn't ring well for the rest of the country.

    Parent

    Well then, never mind (5.00 / 5) (#68)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:01:34 AM EST
    The current voter ID laws are, according to their supporters, designed to prevent fraudulent voting.

    Unfortunately for that theory, there is no evidence that such "fraudulent voting" takes place.

    In order to swing an election with "fraudulent votes," you would need a lot of them.  A couple of individuals voting in their dead father's name isn't going to change an election result.

    That means you would have to enlist into the conspiracy thousands of the types of citizens of the sort who no longer qualify to vote under the "new rules."

    That would be young people, poor people and minority people.

    The "voter I.D. prevents fraud" theory requires thousands of these people to take part in a coordinated activity, with not a single one blowing the whistle.  After all, unless they are all "fraudulently" voting for the same candidate, it wouldn't change much.

    Just so we're clear, how would you suggest that these thousands of "fraudulent" votes are coordinated without anyone giving away the show?

    The most widespread form of voter fraud is people who are entitled to vote, illegally being denied that right.  How would voter I.D. help that problem?

    Another question: do you think it is reasonable to create rules that essentially deny the vote to 15% of the population, in order to prevent a few dozen people from voting in anther's name?  Which would be the greater harm?

    Parent

    The GOP (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:20:05 AM EST
    thinks that everyone that votes and doesn't vote Republican is committing fraud.

    The GOP is actually afraid of people voting because they can read the numbers as good any body else can and they are not good news for the GOP. So their only hope is to limit the number of days people can vote and try to restrict who can vote. Whoever says the GOP doesn't love "big government"

    Parent

    ... Voter ID laws have been crafted and enacted to combat a problem that simply does not exist, except in your own fevered imaginations.

    At best, such laws are the logical result of sheer nonsense on your collective part, which of course is a very real consequence of living in a fact-free parallel universe as you do. And as the Rev. Martin Luther King once observed 50 years ago, when many of these same laws were fashionable in many of these same states, there is nothing more dangerous in all the world than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

    (For purposes of this discussion, please note that I've dispensed with your pretentious and silly claim to be a political independent, which your posts over the years have otherwise clearly belied. And further, while you've the right to express your own opinions on your own behalf, you do not speak for "the rest of the country.")

    The very few documented, isolated and singular instances of fraudulent voter registration most certainly do not warrant the extreme steps thus far taken to prevent such occurrences. What it has accomplished, in fact, is the effective disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of otherwise legitimate voters per state, who were heretofore registered legally.

    But such actions, when further coupled with the very real efforts by Republicans in many of these same states to limit the actual opportunity to vote in minority and college communities by:

    • Restricting early voting;
    • Eliminating and moving voter precincts; and
    • Purposely Misallocating the number of voting machines per precinct and district, so that potential voters in these communities are subjected to unconscionably long lines and hours' worth of wait times;
    serve only to underscore the GOP's intent to suppress the vote in those communities and demographics which tend to lean Democratic at the ballot box, as a means to subvert the electoral process and tilt the results in the GOP's favor.

    All told, these corrosive efforts to suppress the vote -- and the false rationales and legal kabuki constantly invoked to justify them -- are the hallmark of a corrupted and oligarchical system which favors the preservation of personal privilege for a wealthy and entrenched minority over the protection of constitutionally-guaranteed rights of the majority.

    And as such, their proponents serve only to undermine the inherent values of our nation's republican system of democracy, and subvert its non-exclusive democratic principle of equality for all under the law and its corresponding electoral concept of "one man, one vote."

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald, I will ignore (none / 0) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 05:50:50 PM EST
    your snarks such as

    (For purposes of this discussion, please note that I've dispensed with your pretentious and silly claim to be a political independent,

    That's like saying, "Well I won't say that my opponent runs around on his wife....but many do say that.."

    lol

    I've listed many actual cases in another comment so I'll just ask:

    Why should college students who have no real vested long term interest in the community they live in be allowed to vote there? They should vote by absentee ballot in their home district. Their interests are obviously going to be different than the people who make a life there and pay taxes there, etc.

    You provide no proof re malicious moving voting places, mis-location of machines or restricting early voting.

    Early voting is fine but I favor voting over the Saturday, Sunday and Monday with no exit polling or additional campaigning by either side. Let's make it a national holiday.

    And the requirement for a valid government issued ID seems logical to me.

    Parent

    Why add a burden? (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:21:54 PM EST
    the requirement for a valid government issued ID seems logical to me.

    So you want people who have no other need for such a document, to jump through an extra hoop that you don't have to because you have a drivers' license.  They would have to apply for it somehow and somewhere, and go somewhere and stand in a line that they would not otherwise need to.

    You want to create another layer of bureaucracy to issue ID to people who don't need it for any other purpose.  The only justification you offer for such bureaucratic over-response is that somehow thousands of poor, young and minority people are conspiring in secret to rig elections, and nobody ever drops the dime.  No one has ever been able to penetrate this shadowy conspiracy.  That's what makes it such a good one.

    Puhleeeeze.

    Since people voting in others' names is not a problem and has never been a problem, what is wrong with the system that is still in place where I live?  You walk into the polling place, and if you live in that area, your name and address are on a line, where you sign your name.  No one else can now vote in your place.  If someone else signs your name, that would be a crime of itself, and we do not need another layer of laws and bureaucracy to deal with something that rarely happens.

    In my case I live just outside the city limit, and I get my ballot in the mail.  No one else can use my ballot, and I don't need identification TO DROP IT IN A MAILBOX.  I can also drop it off at the polling place near my house in the American Legion Hall, which is my usual practice.

    I believe that the more people who vote, the better it is for democracy.  What say you, would you prefer more voters or fewer voters to determine the course of our country?

    If you opt for "fewer voters," whom do you want to disenfranchise, and why?

    Parent

    Totally agree with you Rider. (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by fishcamp on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 06:52:28 PM EST
    Down here in Florida, the state with the hanging chads, voter machine switch outs, and I can't even remember the rest of the problems, I just walk into the poling place, and my name is right there on the list.  Our county does have voter registration cards too, but they're not Federaly issued.  It was almost too easy to get one back when I moved here 15 years ago from Aspen, where we also had county voters cards.  Now we have to show 2 pieces of ID with a street address to get a  drivers license , boat and car registration, commercial fishing licenses, and a TWIX card that somehow proves you're not a terrorist, when you fuel your boat at a marina.  That one I don't have yet.  We have tens of thousands of both legal and illegal immigrants down here, and many do want to vote.  I'm not sure if green card immigrants can vote.  As Donald pointed out very well, voter fraud is not going to swing any election.

    Parent
    Green card immigrants are not (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by caseyOR on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 07:07:56 PM EST
    eligible to vote. Only U.S. citizens may vote.

    Parent
    Your claims ring false (2.00 / 2) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:52:23 PM EST
    They would have to apply for it somehow and somewhere, and go somewhere and stand in a line that they would not otherwise need to.

    What you are claiming is that people don't need ID's in the modern world.

    Parent

    What's it to ya? (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:29:17 PM EST
    What you are claiming is that people don't need ID's in the modern world.

    Maybe you need one, but you were specific that it had to be a government I.D.  Some people live simply enough that they don't need a driver's license because there is a wonderful government program called public transportation, or they can ride a bicycle, or they live in a big city and never leave the block they live on because they are too poor to ever go anywhere.


    Parent

    Or they are old (none / 0) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:40:03 PM EST
    and they live in the middle of nowhere and the burden and cost of all the trips to different offices makes it nearly impossible for them.
    I worked for meals on wheels for a while.  One of the things we did was take them to vote.  These people are housebound.  Going anywhere is a big deal.

    And they may not have things like a birth certificate.  I didn't have one until I was 16 and got my first job.

    Parent

    ... regarding whatever right-wing partisan hackery you happen to be espousing at any given moment. That's likely because you're forever so busy carrying the RNC's water for them in these threads, and you never have time to engage in something useful -- like, say, original thought and analysis. Anyway, you never look at any of the links that others here provide, so what do you care? You want to learn more about voter disenfranchisement in the United States, well, Google is your friend.

    Parent
    Thanks Donald (none / 0) (#145)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:54:21 PM EST
    for claiming I don't look at the links that you didn't provide.

    I guess if we had some ham we'd have some ham and eggs if we had some eggs.

    Parent

    (Sigh!) It was so nice around here ... (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:12:09 PM EST
    ... while you were placed on hiatus. I'm out of here. I've had enough of your foolish juvenile nonsense for one day.

    Parent
    Donald, why do you think that only people who (none / 0) (#171)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 03:14:02 PM EST
    agree with you are allowed to comment??

    And why do you think early voting problems, mis allocations, etc are only a Repub problem??

    Check this out

    Nashville is solidly Democratic yet we find:

    Even though the Commission is receiving more than $1 million more than the previous year, commissioners voted 3-2 in a special meeting Wednesday afternoon to slash early voting satellite sites from 10 to one.

    The reason: its proposed budget falls $868,000 short of its request to pay for 12 new employees.

    If this decision isn't reversed, Music City risks committing mass voter suppression in its most important election of the decade. A new mayor will be elected as well as at least half of the 40-member council.

    If commissioners don't reverse the decision, they should be removed from their posts.

    In another comment I proposed changing election hours into a 3 day event, Sat-Sun-Mon, with no exit polling, no political events of any kind.

    If you can't get to the polls in 3 days, unless you are physically unable, I'd say you don't want to vote.

    Parent

    This commenter (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 03:40:36 PM EST
    is known for spreading disinformation and linking to right wing propaganda.

    Parent
    Ah yes, the editorial page of the (none / 0) (#181)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 09:18:49 PM EST
    (Nashville) Tennessean is just so right wingish.

    Really, Howdy. You either didn't read the link or you are just making things up.

    Parent

    You don't comment, Jim. (5.00 / 3) (#176)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 03:41:23 PM EST
    You blog-clog.

    Parent
    Whatever I do I always try and provide a link. (none / 0) (#182)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 09:23:47 PM EST
    Donald, the problem is that you don't want to debate/discuss. For some reason you seem to think that we're supposed to just accept your pronouncements as gospel.

    I gave you a link with all sorts of evidence that voter fraud does and has happened. If you don't want to believe it, fine. But it is there for anyone to see.

    Anyway, as usual, there's no common ground to work towards. Have a nice night.

    'Nuff said.

    Parent

    There is no such thing as Voter Fraud (none / 0) (#183)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 12:16:13 AM EST
    It is a lie to suppress the vote...

    Parent
    The question isn't whether (none / 0) (#186)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 08:18:33 AM EST
    voter fraud takes place, the question is whether it has been shown to rise to the level of endangering the integrity of elections.

    I've yet to see any evidence in your links or elsewhere that voter fraud has done so in this country, in the manner of such notorious groups like Tammany Hall, etc back in the 19th and early 20th Centure.

    Instead, as Donald pointed out, it has been used to block legitimate voters with Voter ID law, which shift the burden of proof to make it more more difficult for the poor and dispossessed to vote if they can't afford ID, which, of course, is the real goal of such laws, not preventing voter fraud.

    And please refrain from any personal insults in your reply or they will be reported to Jeralyn.

    Parent

    No one has said that the problem (none / 0) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 11:55:49 AM EST
    rises to your base line.

    in the manner of such notorious groups like Tammany Hall, etc back in the 19th and early 20th Centure.

    There is truth in the statement that some Demos don't want strict voting laws because many of their base are unlikely to take the time and trouble to register and/or obtain valid ID. That is admitted by the claim that they don't have a way, etc.

    People who want to do something find a way.

    There is truth in the statement that some Repubs want strict voting laws to take advantage of the tendencies of some of the Demo base and reduce Demo voter output.

    I gave a link with sources that had sources on various violations.

    I gave a link with a left of center source that showed Demos also limiting voting.

    I gave an actual comment by a Demo telling an undocumented immigrant he didn't need papers.

    I questioned why college students should be allowed to vote in the district in which they attend college, given that their interests are mostly transient and not those of the long term residents.

    I add Franken's election which many Repubs feel was stolen. I add "hanging chads" to show the length partisans will go to try and win.

    And Acron's actions are legion.

    Nevada's law banning cash bonuses for voter registrations has been upheld by that state's supreme court despite an ACORN-backed legal challenge to its constitutionality.

    The decision upholds the 2011 criminal conviction of former senior ACORN executive Amy Adele Busefink for her role in a massive voter fraud conspiracy. Voter fraud, sometimes called vote fraud, election fraud, or electoral fraud, is a catch-all phrase coined by lawyers that encompasses a host of election-related improprieties.

    But my greater point was:

    The question is not how easy it should be for citizens to be registered to vote.

    The question is how do we determine if the person seeking to be registered is, in fact, a citizen....and by extension who they claim to be when the present themselves to vote.

    When I check into a hotel or rent a car I am required to show more identification than when I last registered in 2004 after moving from Colorado to my current domicile.

    The Left's solution is to say that the problem doesn't exist.

    Yet we know that it does. But here again the Left's solution is to say, "Well yes it does but it isn't bad enough to worry about." I trust they don't ignore signs of physical disease the same way.

    And in the meantime Hillary chums the water for her base.

    No big deal, the Repubs will be doing the same.

    And you are always welcome to call Jeralyn's attention to any comment I post.


    Parent

    There have plenty of reported (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 12:33:50 PM EST
    cases in the media of people who weren't able to get ID for voting despite your unsubstantiated claim that people can always find away.

    Jesus Garcia was born in Texas and lives in Mercedes. He was unable to vote with his driver's license, which expired about a year ago. He went to the Weslaco Department of Public Safety (DPS) office twice and both times was unable to get an ID. His birth certificate was stolen and he does not have a copy. He wants to get identification, but to get both a replacement birth certificate and a new ID would be more than $30 combined. He is working a lot of hours, but money is tight. With rent, water, electricity, and everything else, Mr. Garcia is not sure he will be able to afford those documents, much less before the election.

    Democracy shouldn't require one to scrape together money to exercise a basic citizen's right, don't you agree?

    Parent
    Well, according to your own baseline (1.00 / 1) (#190)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 01:12:31 PM EST
    this is a meaningless thing. I mean, only ONE person was affected.

    A little deconstruction.

    Why did he let his DL expire?

    How long did he drive before he knew it had expired?

    How did he get to the DPS?

    Is it TX law that getting a new DL when the present one has expired that a BC is required?

    Is he still driving on an expired DL? Did his insurance company cancel his policy because he has no DL?

    Seems to me he had plenty of time to scrape up $30 and get his BC and a new DL.

    Everyone else has to follow the law. What makes Jesus special?

    Life is tough. It is even tougher when you decide to ignore some of its most basic requirements.

    (Yes. I have no sympathy for Jesus.)

    Parent

    I can cite plenty of other (none / 0) (#193)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 01:26:36 PM EST
    Cases as well, I just don't want to blog-clog when you yourself are capable, by your own past admissions here, of doing the research and discovering the truth for yourself.

    I don't know if you've ever lived on the edge, but saying a person has to choose between not living like a homeless person or being able to choose the right to vote strikes me as very callous.

    Unlike driving, checking into a hotel, etc, voting is a right.  It shouldn't depend on ones' income or lack of circumstances to jump through hoops designed to discourage turn-out, as in the present case in TX and elsewhere.

    It's not clear to me why denying an American citizen(and many more like him, do the research) the right to vote effectively based on their low income isn't an outrage to you.

    Let me remind you what another Jesus wrote about people like him:

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.



    Parent
    Uh,you can put as many links (none / 0) (#195)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 02:08:30 PM EST
    as you want in a singled comment...

    Jesus also said that Caesar thing.

    Rights also come with responsibility. And part of that responsibility is cooperating with the government and following the rules.

    And no one is being denied anything. You just don't want them to follow the rules the rest of us do.

    But speaking of Blog Clogging, 'nuff said. Have a nice day.

    Parent

    Yes, and in a democracy (none / 0) (#199)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 02:40:57 PM EST
    The rules can be changed, and the laws have to be obeyed.  Your citation of the story of rendering unto Caesar is irrelevant to the larger point, which is that there is something wrong with a law that disproportionately renders the right of the poor and impoverished to participate in exercising their franchise, in what you yourself believe to be the greatest country in the world.

    Parent
    Acorn! (4.00 / 1) (#188)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 12:07:08 PM EST
    An oldie but goodie. Run out of arguments and default to shouting Acorn!

    Parent
    Facts don't get old (none / 0) (#191)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 01:13:20 PM EST
    Agreed, (none / 0) (#194)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 01:56:11 PM EST
    your Zombie facts never seem to age, funny thing about the undead. It's a symptom of the prion disease affecting the right wing that they cling to silly myths such as "Acorn" and "Benghazi" even after those horses are long dead.

    Parent
    So you agree that it is a fact (none / 0) (#196)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 02:11:46 PM EST
    but want to claim that OLD facts don't matter.

    Okie dokie.

    'Nuff said. Have a nice day.

    Parent

    So you agree that it is a fact (none / 0) (#197)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 02:11:47 PM EST
    but want to claim that OLD facts don't matter.

    Okie dokie.

    'Nuff said. Have a nice day.

    Parent

    Gasbag (none / 0) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:00:25 PM EST
    you "listed many actual cases" from the website of the Republican National Lawyers Association.  The mistake you make is that anyone take you seriously enough to provide you with proof.  You have demonstrated by years of weaseling and obfuscation that such effort would be a complete waste of time.
    There have been many cases, some in the courts, where times and place restrictions on voting disproportionately effect young and minority voters.  You want to read it Google is your friend.  You won't find it on rnla.org.
    One national investigation found, nationwide, 31 cases, that's thirty one, out of the millions cast nationwide.

    Why am I wasting my time with this


    Parent

    Howdy, please watch your mouth (none / 0) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:49:03 PM EST
    My source gave sources. If you don't like them, prove them wrong.

    And there have been all  kinds of claims that having a government provided ID is a problem yet people of all demographics have the same requirement.

    That's fair.

    As to the number, well here is 1/50th of the nation.

    Abbott spokeswoman Lauren Bean emailed us records showing that from August 2002 through September 2012, the office received 616 allegations of election-code violations and recorded 78 election-code prosecutions.

    By our count, 46 of the prosecutions ended with a conviction, guilty plea, no-contest plea or guilty plea as part of deferred adjudication. Of those, 18 cases appeared to involve fraud committed by individual voters: 12 cases with ineligible voters, five cases of voter impersonation and one case of voting more than once.

    Policfact

    How many more do you want??

    Parent

    When I read this (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:52:14 PM EST
    all I get is the sound the grown ups make in the peanuts cartoons.

    Sorry.

    Parent

    And you watch my mouth (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:53:16 PM EST
    if you're into to that sort of thing.

    Parent
    Howdy, calling someone a "Gasbag" is (none / 0) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:55:49 PM EST
    an insult. Your hostess asks that we not do that.

    Why can't you follow the rules??

    Parent

    When it's a fact (none / 0) (#147)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:00:17 PM EST
    is it an insult?  Hmmm.

    She can certainly delete it if she wishes.

    Parent

    But you know what (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:04:42 PM EST
    you are right.  I apologize for being sucked into the insanity inducing black hole of the abandonment of all hope that is you.  

    I'm done.  

    Parent

    Welcome to the club. (none / 0) (#170)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 03:10:09 PM EST
    FYI Jim, as of October 2012, ... (5.00 / 3) (#150)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:09:00 PM EST
    ... Texas had 13,065,025 voters registered on its state rolls.

    now, per your own source, those 616 allegations of election code violations comprise about 0.000004% of the state electorate.

    Those aforementioned 18 convictions for individual voter fraud comprise 0.00000013% of the state electorate.

    So, in order to prevent those 18 individuals from voting fraudulently in the State of Texas -- individuals who, I might add, were caught under the prior enforcement system then in place -- you would effectively disenfranchise up to 33,300 times that number, or some 600,000 otherwise legally registered voters, simply because they happen to not possess a specific for of personal identification, which up until now they had never needed in order to obtain and cast a ballot.

    Way to go, guy. Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos would be so proud of you.

    :-(

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 08:16:44 AM EST
    616 "allegations" over 10 years and approximately 30 million votes, that adds up to 0.002 %. Is it reasonable to probably disenfranchise thousands of voters to prevent five cases of voter impersonation?

     Out of the myriad of problems facing the people of this country Republicans choose the virtually nonexistent scourge of voter fraud to focus on. That speaks volumes about their motives, they are bullies, they hate democracy.

    Parent

    You have got to be kidding (none / 0) (#184)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 12:18:55 AM EST
    Actual voter fraud is so rare.....

    The whole idea is absurd.  It is hard enough to get people to vote once, let alone twice....

    Just right wing propaganda to make sure "those" people do not vote.....

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 05:11:19 PM EST
    The current voter ID laws are, according to their supporters, designed to prevent fraudulent voting
    .

    They're designed to suppress turnout to help the GOP win elections.

    That's why you want them.


    Parent

    Democrat issues for the Democrat base (none / 0) (#65)
    by CST on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 10:38:21 AM EST
    And we'll see just how well it plays in the "rest of the country" on election day.

    Speak for yourself.

    There is definitely a question of how easy it should be for citizens to vote.  If it's really all about ID's - why the restrictions on early voting, or Sunday voting, or voting hours in general?  What "fraud" does that protect us from?  If anything it would allow people more time and with fewer crowds to do their jobs properly.  Yet still Republicans push those restrictions.  You say it's about fraud, but the actions say otherwise.

    Parent

    Mrs. Cllinton called (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:30:50 AM EST
    on Republicans "at all levels of government, with all manners of ambitions, to stop fear-mongering about a phantom epidemic of election fraud."    "We should do everything we can to make it easier for every citizen to vote."

    As great and as bold as Mrs. Clinton's proposals are, I would only add that election day for president/vice president should be a national holiday.

    Of course, this cuts into the Republican strategy for survival: the party has to keep up or keep voting down.  Given this choice, voter suppression it is.

    Parent

    And, matters like that, KeysDan (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by christinep on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:09:59 PM EST
    may be why smarmy Scott Walker has endeared himself so much to the Repub activists. He diminishes education via taking down the teachers' rights and teachers' union; he took down the mainstay unions in Wisconsin by pitting them against firemen/police unions; and, he has shepherded through his legislature voter/vote reduction measures.  (Note also: He is now about to undertake a strong-arm maneuver to put tenure and promotion issues of college professors more directly under the control of the Governor's office.)

    Some years' back, Towanda sounded a warning here about his backward intent.  I not only concur; but, with the paramount support of Koch $$$$ and their experiment with Wisconsin, Scott Walker could take us more than on a phony backward nostalgia ride from the Midwest. I really believe that Scott Walker could do more harm in the way of compassionless direction for our country than even the Boys from Florida might endeavor.  IMO, Walker is totally bought-&-paid-for as he comes without any built-in base, legacy, or resources of his own ... and, perhaps, the sudden escalation of his position will be his political undoing since he may think he is more cunning/street smart than he actually is or has been.

    Parent

    Is their evidence more prople (none / 0) (#83)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:58:31 AM EST
    would vote were Election Day a day off from work?

    Parent
    It seems, to me, (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:10:57 PM EST
    to be self-evident and, certainly, in keeping with Mrs. Clinton's call to do everything we can to make it easier for citizens to vote.  Moreover, a national election holiday, would honor the foundation to our democracy--no less so than the Fourth of July.

    An evidence-based rationale, of course, would be desirable. However, I believe that even the best of evidence would not influence minds that are set in a different direction.  Data denied are Republican elections to win.

    Parent

    Logic alone would suggest (none / 0) (#85)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:01:45 PM EST
    that  would be the case.  Currently some states like CA companies are suppose to allow employees enough time off their work if it falls on Election Day.

    What would be more useful would be if states like TX had to send sample ballots and the current polling place to registered voters, before an election as is also the case in CA.

    Parent

    some reading for you (none / 0) (#89)
    by sj on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:11:27 PM EST
    right here. Google is pretty flexible.

    Parent
    Thank you. (none / 0) (#90)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:16:48 PM EST
    In my googling, I did not find (none / 0) (#97)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:57:46 PM EST
    any statistical study re states that permit of. time off from work as to the effect of this permission on % of eligible voters who actually voted on Election Day.

    Parent
    I can't say (none / 0) (#100)
    by sj on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 01:04:39 PM EST
    Latest version of acrobat frustrates my browser.

    Parent
    Et al (none / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 05:17:16 PM EST
    Yes and No. The claims are that the Demos want to register more low income and young voters and that the Repubs want to stop that by making voting more difficult.

    I like the thought of more people voting but I want them to be citizens who have registered.

    So I have no quarrel with either.

    I do think that there has been illegal voting and registering. Acron became infamous for it. Plus:

    1/12/15: Why the Use of Provisional Ballots is Important
    At least 26 voters from one Ohio county cast two in the November election,... In Ohio county, 26 voted twice in November USA Today, January 12, 2015

    Parent

    Twenty six (none / 0) (#125)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 05:20:25 PM EST
    it sound like more if you write it out see.

    Parent
    Darn, hit the wrong button. (none / 0) (#126)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 05:28:25 PM EST
    That should have been in quotes. Plus:

    12/16/14: Election Fraud Conviction of Community Organizer in Michigan
    A far-left community organizer is going to jail for at least 2 and a half years for election fraud in Michigan. Edward Pinkney was sentenced to up to 10 years in prison for rigging a recall election for the mayor of Benton Harbor Michigan.

    12/1/14: Even More Incredible than Voting Twice
    Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu's chief-of-staff was present at an event held a day before the midterm election in which his father, a Louisiana mayor, urged people to vote twice in order to re-elect Landrieu.

    1/13/15: Cautionary Tale: Alabama Woman Pleads Guilty to Absentee Fraud
    The trial of the first suspect in last year's voter fraud investigation in Dothan's District 2 commission election started Tuesday morning. Janice Lee Hart is charged with eight counts of falsifying applications for absentee ballots. Hart Pleads Guilty in Voter Fraud Case WTVY, January 13, 2015


    9/26/14: Connecticut Democrat state representative arrested on 19 charges of vote fraud
      Democrat State Representative Christina Ayala has been arrested on 19 charges of voting fraud, including: eight misdemeanor counts of fraudulent voting, ten felony counts of primary or enrollment violations and one felony count of tampering with or fabricating physical evidence. Her arraignment is scheduled for October 7.   Bridgeport State Rep. Christina Ayala arrested on 19 voting fraud charges , NH Register, September 26, 2014

    9/9/14: Georgia launches fraud investigation into voter registration group
      A preliminary investigation into the New Georgia Project has revealed significant illegal activities including forged voter registration applications, forged signatures on releases and applications with false or inaccurate information.

    Here's lots more.

    And who can forget the hanging chads and Al Franken?

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#128)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 05:44:34 PM EST
    the Republican National Lawyers Association.

    A credible source on "voter fraud" if ever there was one.

    Parent

    I guess (none / 0) (#131)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:08:53 PM EST
    you guys are concerned with fraud because you know George W. Bush got away with it. Therefore if Bush was doing fraudulent stuff everybody else must be doing it too.

    Parent
    Howdy and GA (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:40:27 PM EST
    Howdy, the sources are provided. It is obvious you can't refute them.

    GA, really?? The FL recount was reviewed by two news organizations, I believe USA Today and WA Post and found to be accurate.

    Parent

    Did you "sniff" (none / 0) (#138)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:43:09 PM EST
    when you typed that?

    Parent
    There's no need to "refute" them (none / 0) (#192)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 07, 2015 at 01:23:11 PM EST
    It's the Republican National Lawyers Association.

    Sometimes I think you're trying to be funny.  Then I get a chuckle when I realize you're not.

    Parent

    Howdy and GA (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:40:27 PM EST
    Howdy, the sources are provided. It is obvious you can't refute them.

    GA, really?? The FL recount was reviewed by two news organizations, I believe USA Today and WA Post and found to be accurate.

    Parent

    Left out some quotes (none / 0) (#127)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 05:38:45 PM EST
    from the Ohio story  
    but no extra votes were actually counted......"The system worked the way it should,"........In most cases, though, investigators believe the votes were cast in error......The 26 ballots questioned this year represent 0.01% of the 246,075 votes cast in Hamilton County
    That surely does not look like a threat to our democracy.

    Parent
    I would say that any improper actions re (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:37:28 PM EST
    voting is a problem.

    But then again I believe in the "broken window" theory of policing.

    Parent

    We (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:32:00 PM EST
    already have laws regarding voter fraud  and they apparently work in the extremely rare cases they are needed.

    I am no fan of broken windows, but I do see the rationale behind it. Crime rates in cities were measurably terrible, applying brute force to the problem makes sense as a solution.

    There is no rationale behind more restrictive voting laws, statistically speaking the rate of voter fraud is not even measurable. Passing these brute force voting restrictions to combat a non-existent problem makes no sense.

    This is nothing less then Republicans trying to bully the American people. Republicans hate democracy.

    Parent

    This is a solution looking for a (none / 0) (#169)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 03:09:29 PM EST
    problem to solve.  

    Parent
    Why don't you cite the real (none / 0) (#66)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 10:50:03 AM EST
    statistics about voter fraud in this country, so we can have at least the beginnings of a productive discussion instead?

    Parent
    "The rest of the country" (none / 0) (#94)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:40:48 PM EST
    meaning those utterly clueless tea baggers who can't be bothered to break a mental sweat and find out that voter fraud is an utterly negligible problem in this country.

    The people who already wouldn't for a non-Republican at pain-of-death anyway.

    These GOP vote-suppressing Nixonian dirty tricks don't wash well with the decent people, thoughtful of this country either.

    Parent

    A summary of voter fraud studies (none / 0) (#178)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 05:17:22 PM EST
    7 papers, 4 government inquiries, 2 news investigations and 1 court ruling proving voter fraud is mostly a myth

    Voter ID laws are back in the news this week after a group of college students joined a lawsuit challenging North Carolina's new restrictive rules. And as Catherine Rampell pointed out earlier this week, it's not just ID laws - Republican state legislatures have been busy devising all manner of creative ways to make voting more difficult for traditionally Democratic-leaning groups.

    All of these restrictive measures take their justification from a perceived need to prevent "voter fraud." But there is overwhelming scholarly and legal consensus that voter fraud is vanishingly rare, and in fact non-existent at the levels imagined by voter ID proponents. That hasn't stopped many Republican lawmakers from crying "fraud" every time they're faced with an unfavorable election outcome.



    Parent
    Interesting. Actually makes it more interesting (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:11:49 PM EST
    to me.

    What Harry Potter Is Actually About. Childhood Ruined.

    Harry Potter is about mental illness.  Hogwarts is a mental institution.


    Canada faces its past... (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 11:15:38 PM EST
    The Truth and Reconciliation Commission...

    Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission released a landmark report on Tuesday that extensively details accounts of aboriginal children undergoing forced assimilation and physical and sexual abuse in state-funded, church-run boarding schools.

    After conducting six years of research and over 6,000 survivor interviews, the commission's report  found that what happened at the schools, and the broader aboriginal policy that they were a part of, "can best be described as 'cultural genocide.'"



    too funny (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:45:31 AM EST
    i have mentioned before that I love listening to the old men at the local diner talk politics.
    This morning the subject turned to Huckabee and his anti gay crusade.  The moments that make like worth living

    The best quote

    "How long till we find out he's bangin teenaged boys?"


    I got the impression (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:52:28 AM EST
    the comment was made for my benefit.  After saying it Bernard looked right at me and smiled cryptically.

    Parent
    Economic Report for May (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by christinep on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:27:25 PM EST
    Reports out now that 280,000 new jobs added to the workforce in May.  The reports for March & April  were revised upward by 32,000 jobs.  Press stories characterized the growth as "robust" and "strong." The news notes that hundreds of thousands entered the job force resulting in an uptick from 5.4 to 5.5% unemployment--described positively because of the widespread confidence exhibited in the number of new job applicants.  Finally, the hourly wage gain also continues to be a bit above its stuck point last year--with 2.3% growth.

    I thought that it made sense to show the positive economic report from this week since--as initial analysts are reporting--the hiring and economic expansion has continued at good levels even after a slow start during winter's first quarter.  And, since the less-positive report from the first-quarter had been posted in the past week by another commenter here, today's real economic news offers a timely antidote.

    Colbert announced his band leader for the (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:14:39 PM EST
    new CBS show, Jon Batiste, a New Orleans keyboardist and band leader.  Looks promising! I was secretly terrified they were keeping Paul Schaefer.

    Colbert and his writers also have a weekly podcast about the preparation for the show. Interesting if you like behind the scenes stuff and listening to 3 funny guys, one of them also fatally charming (if you are me) talking.

    Thank you for your service! (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 02:44:35 PM EST
    Well, for the service of most of you.  

    The US Senate rejected Veterans' benefits to same sex couples and their children whose marriages were legally celebrated in a state, but who live in states where their marriages are not recognized.  An Amendment to the 2015 Defense Authorization bill sponsored by Jeanne Shaheen (D. NH), failed 53-42 (60 votes needed).

    All Democratic senators voted for the Amendment.  Of the Republican senators who are riding in the clown car, Paul and Cruz voted no.  Rubio and Lindsey did not vote.  Lindsey's surgically attached bombardier, McCain,  voted no.  Hopefully, by the end of this month, the Supreme Court will have righted this wrong.  

    ... with the High Court. What makes the GOP think it'll work now?

    Parent
    Got it. Thanks! (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 05:34:38 PM EST
    Graham was bullish on his foreign policy credentials leading him to victory over a crowded GOP field. "It's a tough message," co-host Steve Doocy said. "A lot of people are just worn out by war."

    "Then don't vote for me," Graham responded. "Because I'm telling you what's coming.



    Winter is coming (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 06:46:30 PM EST
    He believes in white lakers...actually he is a white walker

    Parent
    Hillary is coming! (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:21:36 PM EST
    Without Miss Clairol you would clearly see (none / 0) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:27:19 PM EST
    She is a white walker.  She admitted it to the Gods and everyone

    Parent
    Not sure (none / 0) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:30:42 PM EST
    we want to go to far down the Game of thrones rabbit hole when discussing our political system.  It could get disturbing how many parallels could be found.

    Parent
    I loved her joke (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:40:14 PM EST
    I'm thinking about putting a "warsh" in my hair to celebrate.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 07:06:24 PM EST
    at least Scarlett is being honest here. It's the same thing the entire GOP wants but will not say and pretends they don't want but everybody knows they'll do a repeat of Iraq.

    Parent
    Op Ed by Edward Snowden: (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 04, 2015 at 11:00:55 PM EST
    NYT

    Assuming he wrote this, kudos for being an excellent writer.

    Also, note that Snowden criticizes Russia.  

    Yes, kudos for being an excellent (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 10:52:09 AM EST
    writer (even if, as I suspect, it received an eagle's eye edit from Glenn.).   Noted, too, the skate on Putin thin ice, but then Edward is a risk-taker).    And, kudos to Edward Snowden for being.  

    Parent
    I expect he didn't need much editing, though (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by sj on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:12:33 AM EST
    He is an excellent communicator when speaking off the cuff, as well.

    Parent
    Agreed. The (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:56:09 AM EST
    important editing likely stemmed from legal reviewers. A wise step, I would think.

    The Espionage Act of 1917, under which Snowden is charged, requires his particular caution since it deals with speech.  The law was enacted to silence citizens opposed to World War I, in general, and in particular, to dissuade disloyalty and espionage or such suspicions by certain "Hyphenated Americans," to spy on behalf of the Kaiser.  

    The Palmer raids and the red scare glommed onto by the young and ambitious  J. Edgar Hoover stoked the fires. Penalties are severe, long prison terms and death.   In 1919, after the Armistice, President Wilson pardoned or commuted the sentences of 200 prisoners convicted under the Act.  After Attorney General Palmer (whose house was bombed and induced the hysteria) left office the use of the Espionage Act withered away.   Until later.

    Parent

    Reality TV brings us one step closer (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 08:46:10 AM EST
    to The Hunger Games-

    In that sense, you could argue there is nothing new, nor even particularly noteworthy, about "The Briefcase," a summer series that premiered last week. Its premise is that a struggling family is given a briefcase full of cash -- $101,000 -- with the stipulation that they may choose to keep all of the money, keep some and give the rest to a second down-on-its luck family or keep none of it and give the entire amount to that other family.

    It is a rigged morality tale, a financially strapped couple wrestling with questions of self-preservation versus altruism. In that situation, should you be selfish or selfless? At one point, each couple is taken to tour the other couple's home while those people are away. They rifle through the other family's overdue bills, inspect their busted appliances. The twist is that unbeknownst to each couple, the other has received an identical briefcase, has taken the same tour, and is wrestling with the same question: What is the moral thing to do?



    Really sick (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:38:16 AM EST
    Someone throw me some bread and bring the lions out next.

    Parent
    I read about this show. (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 11:50:31 AM EST
    And could not stomach the thought of watching it. What over-privileged and over-payed @ssh@ts at the network thought this would be a summer programming can't miss show?

    The families were lied to about the premise of the show. I feel so badly for them.

    As to the network, well, is there an Emmy category for most disgusting assault on human kindness and decency?

    Parent

    comment deleted for overly long url (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 10:06:38 AM EST
    not in html format. URLs must be in html format as long ones skew the sites due to our narrow margins.

    Any thoughts on the President Carter's... (none / 0) (#86)
    by NycNate on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:08:05 PM EST
    comments?  Is President Carter correct in his view that white people feel superior toward people of color?  I ask in all ignorance in that I am a minority.  

    "Many Americans still have racist tendencies or feelings of superiority to people of color," Mr. Carter told AARP Bulletin, The Hill reported Thursday.


    IMO (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:21:45 PM EST
    it is true.  Yes.

    Parent
    Many Americans still have racist tendencies or feelings of superiority to people of color, many skinny Americans still have feelings of superiority to overweight people, many tall Americans still have  feelings of superiority to short people, many Americans of one party still have feelings of superiority to people of another party, many Americans who tan well still feelings of superiority to people who don't, many attractive Americans still have feelings of superiority to unattractive people, many Americans still have feelings of superiority to unathletic people, many Americans still have feelings of superiority to people who work/dress/talk differently from them.

    I could go on.

    We are all flawed, in so many ways. Not that that in an excuse.


    Parent

    Is the last phrase meant to (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by christinep on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 01:01:51 PM EST
    counter the rest of your paragraph?  

    Taken individually, I would find myself in general agreement with your specific assertions.  Somehow, tho, including those examples right after and in the same paragraph with the former President's statement about racial discrimination almost seems like a written attempt to suggest an equivalency and/or to hint that all wrongs/sins are the same -- you know, like felonies are at the same level of wrong as a typical parking ticket.  I don't think that you meant that; please enlighten me if it is otherwise.

    Yes, we are certainly all flawed ... sometimes, yes, the point is that "we are only human."  BUT, perfection has nothing to do with living with and practicing racism. It doesn't require canonization to know that humanity--as well as saints--should not abide racial discrimination.

    Parent

    of mine you have questions about so I don't want to post an answer based on my misunderstanding.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 12:56:33 PM EST
    for some reason Americans are always looking to be "better" than someone else. I don't know if this country has a lot of people with massive self esteem problems or what.

    Parent
    thing. I think it's a human race thing.

    Parent
    It's also something that's learned (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by CST on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 01:16:31 PM EST
    Different cultures have vastly different beauty standards, for example - that's not all nature.  And I think you see less of it in general in children across the spectrum.

    Parent
    right word, is something that we learn as we "mature."

    Parent
    It may be a human trait (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 03:12:11 PM EST
    but we have raised it to an art with "American exceptionalism"

    Why, we are so exceptional we are the only industrial nation that does not provide universal health care to its citizens.  We are exceptional in that we are always the last in the western world to grant basic human rights to everyone.

    When they say American exceptionalism they really mean white American exceptionalism.

    Parent

    I dunno (none / 0) (#111)
    by CST on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 03:42:41 PM EST
    I know a lot of Europeans who think they're better than everyone too.

    Also Africans.  Also people from the middle east.

    I'd say it's pretty universal.

    Parent

    Do they have thousands (none / 0) (#112)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 03:49:13 PM EST
    of nuclear weapons while being adamant about others not getting them?

    Parent
    I don't really understand (none / 0) (#114)
    by CST on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 03:51:34 PM EST
    what that has to do with our current conversation about human nature and people in general.

    But I'd say just about everyone would like to have all the nuclear weapons and not let anyone else have them.

    Parent

    The point is (none / 0) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 04:07:26 PM EST
    everyone might want to.  We do it.

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 03:51:06 PM EST
    have you ever heard the term European exceptionalism?

    African exceptionalism?

    Parent

    I've seen it (none / 0) (#116)
    by CST on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 03:52:02 PM EST
    That's all I'm saying.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#119)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 04:33:48 PM EST
    a half century of often brutal, up to and including genocide, colonization of much of the world shows that the Europeans considered themselves "exceptional".

    Parent
    Oh sorry (none / 0) (#120)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 04:35:37 PM EST
    i thought we were talking about now.  

    Parent
    Just (none / 0) (#121)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 04:47:57 PM EST
    trying to say it's baked into the human condition.
    The Europeans only had there sense of superiority beat out of them by many, many wars culminating in the utter devastation of WW two. Who knows what it will take for us.

    Parent
    To paraphrase Daenerys (none / 0) (#122)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 04:56:13 PM EST
    Greeks, Romans, Europeans, Americans, they're all just spokes on a wheel. This ones on top, then that ones on top and on and on it spins crushing those on the ground.


    Parent
    You obviously have never dealt with a German (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 06, 2015 at 03:16:49 PM EST
    engineer.

    ;-)

    Parent

    It is (none / 0) (#102)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 01:36:54 PM EST
    really bad in the south. The desperation to "be somebody" just drips from people. And it's sad too.

    Parent
    but what you say is what I've heard from others too.

    Parent
    Given that most instances of racism ... (none / 0) (#163)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:44:28 PM EST
    ... are likely subconscious acts on our part and not overt demonstrations of contempt based upon skin color and ethnicity, I would say that yes, most Americans still harbor some sense of personal bigotry toward others who are not like ourselves.

    And I won't except myself from that number. If we define such bigotry is an unfounded belief in our own personal superiority, and further realize that it is a learned trait we derived from our parents and elders, then I confess that I'll catch myself thinking such thoughts about others in the heat of a given moment, more often than I'd normally care to admit. It's further something of which I'm fully aware, and I have to work on it constantly.

    For example, yesterday I found myself stuck on Honolulu's H-1 Freeway behind an elderly Chinese-American woman who was puttering along in the far left lane at 40 mph in a 60 mph zone, and I started wondering to myself why elderly Chinese were generally such lousy drivers -- and even lousier pedestrians in the downtown financial district.

    Now, that's totally baseless nonsense, to be sure, but there it was, nonetheless. I then upbraided myself for succumbing to the dark side of my nature and told myself to get a grip because after all, my nasty thoughts certainly weren't doing anything to make that Chinese woman pick up the pace on the freeway. Such is the corrosive nature of our own innate bigotry.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Translating the Good Employment Report. (none / 0) (#123)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 05:13:33 PM EST
    Excerpt from The New York Tombs:

    "The U.S. economy produced an additional 280,000 serfs last month. This, combined with the news that hourly wages crept up several cents, has resulted in some of the greatest panic seen recently among our vaunted "job producer" class. The cry went out that maybe a fraction of the approximately two trillion dollars these business leaders have been hoarding should be pried loose and spent on even more employment. ("More employment" is defined by The Masters as more employment........ for robots.")  

    Quoting John Iwantitall, head of the National Chamber of Commerce, "This is just crazy, we had no idea that when Obama, Geithner, and Bernanke gifted The U.S. Treasury to us as a reward for exploding the World Economy it came with strings attached. We didn't spend all that money buying the Government to have them just turn around and produce more serfs. Why do they think we sent all of our best and brightest lobbyists to Washington, for Gawd's sake?

    Everyone knows Congress got stalled on the wording of these new Atlantic & Pacific, so-called, Trade Agreements (Better known in our circles as "The Great Race to the Bottom" Bills.) They were all worried about how they could phrase, "screw American workers," yet have it sound like a plus. So, our lobbyists have been working day and night showing them how it's done. (Not to brag, but, we're very good at that.)

    Anyway, let them have their fun. After we ram through the TPP (making the lowest paid, undeveloped country worker, the "new normal") it won't matter anyway. Here's the beauty, and the genius, of our plan: Not only will the millions of robots we're building eliminate the need for new jobs in the future, but, even the job-eliminating robots themselves, thanks to The TPP, will be built by the lowest paid workers in the world.

    And, if that ain't beautiful, I don't know what is."

    God Bless America  


    Caitlyn Jenner part deux (none / 0) (#133)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:29:54 PM EST
    im reconsidering my previous reservations about this.

    Anything that can drive right wing talk radio freaks this completely baths!t can only be completely good.  Mea culpa.

    My absolute favorite is Mann Coulter-

    "Liberals are always -- you know, science, science and conservatives don't believe in science," Coulter said. "This Bruce Jenner still has Y chromosomes in every cell of his body. Do not tell me he is a girl.

    Now, maybe it's just me but  IMO it takes real balls for the person with the most suspicious Adam's apple on talk radio to say THAT

    You went there! I was thinking the same thing (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:03:03 PM EST
    If Ann says she's a girl I guess she is, I'm not asking for a DNA test.

    Parent
    Who's Ann? (none / 0) (#164)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:46:13 PM EST
    Oh, yeah. Ann Coulter. (none / 0) (#165)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:47:30 PM EST
    Never mind. My bad. I wasn't fully engaged there.

    ;-D

    Parent

    I can't believe (none / 0) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:41:20 PM EST
    the absolute lunacy that comes from conservatives every day on almost any subject. Then again, I guess I can. When you look at all of them as carnival barkers it all starts to make sense.

    Parent
    Yes but (none / 0) (#139)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 06:48:09 PM EST
    this is special.  Seriously.  Their heads are literally exploding.  Want to have some fun?

    Read some of these

    The best is from RIGHTWINGWATCH

    Parent

    LOL, thanks, I needed that (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:19:45 PM EST
    It will be so amazingly funny if this really ends up being a wedge issue that sends the right permanently to losertown. Just goes to show you can't predict politics. One day you are Jeb Bush thinking you have a decent shot at this thing, the next an ex-Olympian is in the cover of Vanity Fair in a teddie and your whole political landscape changes.

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    Baa waa waa (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:44:23 PM EST
    I had no idea but I generally try to ignore them. The best one is Caitlyn is part of an evil plot by Obama to distract from his "civil war". That one was courtesy of Alex Jones. I nearly spit all over my computer with that nonsense.

    Who would have thought a Vanity Fair cover would have created such a meltdown.

    But in the end it's just another crazy thing from them. They've gone from Josh Dugger and pedophilia is okay to now talking about how Caitlyn Jenner is going to cause the world to collapse.

    Parent

    I saw this and thought of you, Capt. Howdy (none / 0) (#153)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:18:16 PM EST
    Pink Slips at Disney. But First, Training Foreign Replacements.

    ORLANDO, Fla. -- The employees who kept the data systems humming in the vast Walt Disney fantasy fief did not suspect trouble when they were suddenly summoned to meetings with their boss.

    While families rode the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train and searched for Nemo on clamobiles in the theme parks, these workers monitored computers in industrial buildings nearby, making sure millions of Walt Disney World ticket sales, store purchases and hotel reservations went through without a hitch. Some were performing so well that they thought they had been called in for bonuses.

    Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.



    Oh man (none / 0) (#155)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:21:18 PM EST
    its trickle down Disney.  This same thing was done to the FL animation division several years ago.

    Retirement is a beeeooootiful thing.

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    One of the laid off programmers got hired (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:23:17 PM EST
    where I work. Or maybe she quit before her official end date because I have not heard stories like this from her. Gotta say she does not seem to like the change. I bet it was a really good place to work while it lasted.

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    They take good care (none / 0) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:30:34 PM EST
    of their tech people.  Until they don't.  For the park workers not so much.

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    Yes I meant the tech workers for sure. (none / 0) (#161)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 05, 2015 at 07:41:44 PM EST
    I can't imagine working in the parks, in this heat. Ugh. One friend who has worked in the parks for a long time just transferred into a job in one of the stores, so at least she is out of the heat. It was just too much.

    Parent